#and by god do I hate the discourse that comes around shipping

[bridgyrose]

🔥

Shipping

I might be kicking a a hornets nest or two...

Shipping is meant to be fun and a lot of people put a lot more merit into shipping than it needs to be.

That said, shipping isnt the be all end all of fandom. If you're only in a fandom because of shipping, you may want to rethink why you enjoy the media.

As well, if your interest in a show drops because a ship you like or want to be canon isnt canon or going the way you want, you may need to re-evaluate why you're watching a show.

Shipping wars are terrible and I really wish people could just enjoy shipping as a fun thing and quit making it a job or some sort of moral failing. Its fine for people to not like the same ship as you, what's not fine is going out of your way to make people miserable because of it.

Proship/anti-ship discourse is fucking insane and has no place within shipping communities despite what everyone thinks.

And finally, if you find yourself looking for shipping discourse to insert yourself into, step away from it and re-evaluate what you're doing. Shipping is supposed to be fun, not stressful or hurtful.

[circuitcircus]

in defense of kabumisu……..

addressing things I see people say about why kabru being shipped w mithrun is ‘bad’ or why their canon relationship ‘doesn’t mean anything’ while also clearing up misconceptions of the characters some fans have

listen it keeps popping up and I just gotta do this or my brain will melt (if you don’t see it around then god I wish that were me) there’s an age gap!- erm there’s also an age gap in farcille (ily), the most popular ship in the series...also chilchuck looks like a kid but a lot of fans recognize him as a dilf because of his relative age, so there should be no age gap discourse among adult characters because it feels so conditional tbh

kabru taking care of mithrun is racist!- marcille likes to take care of others as well. is that sexist, or just an aspect of her character?

kabru isn’t treated like a servant, waiting on mithrun hand and foot…I mean he gives mithrun a foot massage but no one told him to do all that lmfao

he's also not the only one to care for mithrun. pattadol is shown to worry for him and milsril was the one to start taking care mithrun in the first place after he…...y’know. speaking of which-

they probably met when kabru was a kid!- neither of them showed signs of recognizing each other the entire time mithrun was introduced nor when they were together. and im pretty sure KABRU of all people would show some kind of recognition if they'd met before. it's kabru!!! the people person!!! mr. "i-noted-down-50+-characters-in-this-dude's-backstory-for-fun-and-actually-enjoy-social-gatherings"

you would think some kind of memory would come back to him especially after hearing mithrun’s backstory if milsril had even told kabru about him as a kid. but nope. it’s just fan speculation unless there's a side comic suggesting otherwise that i haven't seen

mithrun doesn't care about kabru, his shapeshift double looked like shit!- it's obviously because of mithrun's (then) lack of desires that it looked like that, but they really grow on each other

i think it's safe to assume it'd look more like kabru after they spent so much time together (also laios can barely even remember kabru's name..also saw his face multiple times and didn’t recognize him when they talked for the first time)

mithrun is racist!- he’s actually the least likely character to be racist since he lost his desires and that includes a desire for superiority over others. he even calls his past self out on that part of himself. the other elves in that side comic were being just as racist to shorter lived races but just didn’t use ‘outdated slurs’

(unfortunately literally every main character in dunmeshi is at least a lil prejudiced, but I believe it’s worldbuilding and a sign of the times rather than a reason ryoko kui is giving to hate each character)

taking care of others is a pain in the ass!- saying this as a reason kabru and mithrun shouldn't be together is basically saying disabled people shouldn't be allowed to have romantic relationships because they're a "burden"...if someone is actually willing to put in the work, then let them be.

that's not even all of their relationship, mithrun is the fighter of their duo and kabru would've been killed by the shapeshifter or something if he'd fallen down the hole on his own since he sucks at fighting monsters. mithrun helps collect ingredients for cooking every time, too (barometz fruits and griffin egg). he pulls his weight and then some!! i feel like people forget that part of mithrun a lot somehow.

+senshi literally cooks for everyone all time. it's kind of an important aspect of the narrative.

+also, while it is a popular fan thing I see around that kabru handfeeds mithrun, he literally never does lol this is mithrun using his own hands to eat:

also here we have him washing his own body

just saying because people like to treat mithrun like a baby even though the narrative respects him as a capable adult who also has special needs because of an accident. he’s captain for a reason

kabru hates taking care of mithrun!- not exactly, he was initially surprised and put off but got used to it quickly. i’m sure he’s grateful for all the times mithrun saved him from a monster and teleported them out of danger as well

he even starts doing “unnecessary” things for mithrun’s comfort and safety like when mithrun pushes himself too hard fighting, even after his mission to take care of him was complete when the canaries came back

here is even kabru resting while mithrun keeps watch (mithrun let him sleep for 5 hours before waking him up from the nightmare earlier, too):

there's nothing more to their relationship!- they actually have had a very tight and consistent dynamic since they met and they incite the most change within each other by the end. kabru is the one who inspires mithrun to create new desires so he doesn't waste away, and mithrun is the first person we see kabru being genuine with and it leads him to be more honest with others by the end instead of tiptoeing around everyone all the time (that mask was also the reason some ppl initially disliked kabru…)

kabru’s relationship with mithrun is honestly so important for his character and vice versa, but it’s often disregarded because of one over exaggerated aspect of it (an aspect that isn’t even the first way they interact with each other) or because people want to just straight up ignore it for some reason 🥲🥲

kui dedicates many panels to them that don't particularly serve the narrative as a whole in order to demonstrate this and i think that's pretty significant

you're taking this too seriously!- as if i'm the first person in the world to be crazy about a ship or the characters 😭 i love analyzing text and it's upsetting to see them mischaracterized when kui lays out the characters so clearly and deliberately

also they end up touching each other like all the time and have the kind of canon validation most ppl can only dream of lol i feel so insane look at this:

and this is just when they're first getting to know each other cuz there's a fuckload more

kinda hard to explain how i don't actually need them to get married or whatever but i'd die on this hill for them and i enjoy their dynamic immensely

haha you thought you were reading ship discourse but it was actually a character analysis 🤪🤪🤪

also don’t somehow take this to mean I think anyone has to ship them, I just need everyone to understand these accusations kind of don’t make sense especially when they can also apply to other pairs or characters

bonus kabru just looking at mithrun:

[iiapple]

do you hate knife as a character or what the fandom/his relationship with suitcase has turned into /genq

both

theres aspects to him i enjoy though usually its paired with another character's interactions with the general juvenile violence in season 1 - early season 2. knife and trophy's whole deal is so ridiculously stupid its laughable but in an enjoyable way where im kinda entertained. it can make for a lot of funny interactions that are just jabs at one another (and trophy getting the short end of the dick which is always funny). he and pickle are fun too even without the romancey shippinf component, they can be at a base just stupid gay bros that chill. while he was caught up in mic's business and did lend a hand in her arc, i do prefer how it is now where again, its just slight jabs and non melodramatic fun (add in soap to grill his ass, soapmic knickle video game sesh and soap is crushing everyone at it like hell)

however its the push of him needing to be this "philosophical deep guy who analyzes everyone correctly and its soooooo interesting how much hes changed" that really irks me. because i honestly dont buy it and just see a man who self pities under the guise of "learning and growing i help others now because ive changed". hes like balloon to me in that sense except hes able to keep it composed and together without becoming outwardly desperate. its honestly irritating how much of an involvement he has now and again, how much of a push there is to him being in the top 2 after "all his growth". i just dont give a fuck. why should i give a fuck about a man who burnt and harassed and bullied and tortured a woman in season 1 for fun, and had others try to join in on it too? and the GALL of him to even apologize to marshmallow for it too LOOOOOL... "ohhhh poor me im sorry marshmallow for hurting you before" pussy couldnt even state what he did to her, weak ass self fellating apology im SO glad marsh didnt accept it and was NOT kind about it in front of him. she shouldve start throwing rocks at him. all this "change and teaching" i will never forgive that man for what he did to women

not to mention, how practically of little to no help he was towards suitcase who, was dealing with bigger issues than he was as if hes fuckin get it. such bullshit advice and "lessons" hed tell her when its like dude, shut the hell up!!! youre saying the dumbest shit and still pinning it all against her somehow when shes been tossed around her supposed alliance because those 3 idiots couldnt get shit together for once. that AND her psychosis coming onto the foreground of it all of course shes not gonna talk about it further because you keep pushing in shit that she has no fault in, as if shedve trust you with that. its sweet that theyre working now against everything now but god lol, i just dont buy their newfound ammends and friendship of sort personally

what the fandom has done is REALLY hyopcritical. now im not gonna say its every single person who does this, nor am i a fan of monolith-ing (?) a group of people because of a common pattern, but its just really REALLY funny seeing people going after pairings like lairy or whatever saying its "proship" while shipping a man who has a history of violence on women with a psychotic woman who he has offered piss poor assistance to in the name of his own weird beliefs of changing and helping. idgaf for discourse around a bunch of pixels over trivial shit that really isnt THAT big of an issue (lairy discourse), especially because well, theyre wrong as fuck, but how are people gonna say one thing then turn around and do The Same Shit under another flavour. knifecase is such a kick in the balls to women and another example of how fandom greatly prefers men over women WHATEVER the situation is. theyll fawn over a man whos done shit and think "yeah hes my poor onglydoople poop. only HE suffers in this work of media" while greatly ignoring the issues the women in the same piece of work deal with by writing (misogyny) and circumstances (misogyny again). this world is founded immensely on misogyny and we're never getting the fuck out of it and while yeah im ranting about object character violence being sexist/misogynistic, you gotta get that its all a repeated pattern of these behaviours these mentalities this culture. you can argue one thing about writers intentions and beliefs, we dont know these people well enough to point fingers and label. however, how are YOU digesting it? shitting it out? what is your overall take and without using gay fandom buzzwords and misogynist thinking describe the women in the show (rhetorical)

[queerofthedagger]

not to stir the pot but i’ve seen some really shitty takes recently about arthur being gay and completely erasing gwen’s importance to him. what are your thoughts?

oof well that is in fact a loaded question but I genuinely feel your frustration so let's give this a shot lmao

the short of it, to quote a friend of mine: 2012 tumblr called and wants its shitty shipping discourse back (derogatory)

the slightly longer of it.... to start this off, no one has to ship anything. no one's saying that anyone has to ship anything, or headcanon characters a certain way, or that you're not "allowed" to say that you don't ship certain ships. that's just . not a thing that's happening, and I do wanna reiterate strongly that you don't have to ship anything.

that said, well. maybe if you find yourself with the urge to nail your 'why i don't ship this canon interracial couple' against the proverbial church doors, you should ask yourself.... why is it always the black characters you find "badly written." why is it always the black and the white character who have "no chemistry." why is it always the black character you find unrelatable, that you think would be soo much better suited dating another character of color, etc. etc. These things do not happen in a vacuum, and you don't need to hate or even dislike that character to play into tropes, stereotypes, and issues that very many people have very extensively explained to be less than stellar, to put it mildly.

And Imma come out and say this: fandom is not activism, you don't need to be a loud, outspoken activist and/or turn this into anything more than a hobby. if, even amongst the discussions had in the last years, you have never once stopped to ask yourself how you might deal with the internalized racism that we're all dealing with, how it might affect people in the spaces you share while doing your hobby, then, frankly, you gotta do better. fandom is not activism, but we all have some basic responsibility of not causing more harm than there already is going around. this should not be a controversial statement either.

you can ship merthur without invalidating and trampling all over the frankly brilliant fact that this show went and casted a black woman as queen guinevere. you can ship merthur without taking away scenes that are not about them - god knows there are enough. you can acknowledge that 75% of your shipping takes are subjective, that merthur isn't, wasn't, and was never going to be canon, and literally none of this takes away from the two generic white dudes whose faces you'd like to smash together. this entire fandom is and has been majorly about those two generic white guys, for well over a decade, and i'm saying all this as a white merthur shipper. like, this is the bare minimum. and yet, here we fucking are.

as for the arthur being gay thing - again, you don't need to headcanon anyone a certain way, but whenever i do see this specific headcanon it "somehow" always comes with an incredibly weird (to put this mildly also) understanding of sexuality, top/bottom discourse, and - you guessed it - takes on arwen, that are maybe something people might want to uhh. examine also.

this isn't a callout, or a call for a witchhunt, or or or. personally i block and move on, and I wouldn't have said anything more on this than a vague shitpost on my sideblog, but god knows i can never shut up and even less so when asked, and I do think that while, again, fandom is not activism and I'll stand by this, people should... try and aim to make some basic attempts at not causing harm. it's not even hard (although that should not be your measure but like, again. bare minimum). it really is as easy as not constantly invalidating and side-lining ships and/or characters, by doing basic research in how not to whitewash characters, why not to compare skintone to food when writing, etc.

On that note, none of these are things that I've come up with. A lot of people, especially fans of colour, have done a great deal of work to provide resources and education that are... incredibly easy to find if you can be fucked to make some effort. Imma link a bunch beneath too but like. Yeah I guess that's my take. You can ship whatever you want, genuinely, from the bottom of my heart. But 1. maybe sometimes take some time to consider what you're saying, 2. maybe take some time to do some basic self-education on some issues in general, and 3. writing posts on why you don't ship whatever ship has never accomplished anything beyond getting people who agree with you to stroke your ego, and step on the toes of people who don't. at best.

But also, last but not least, the block button is your friend and all that

Resources by people much better equipped to talk on these things than me:

How to stan the white guy with minimal contribution to fandom's racism problem

The racism in the Merlin fandom and towards Gwen specifically

Educating Merlin - a blog that's specifically tackling racism in this fandom

Fanlore on Fandom's Racism Problem(s) (use to find many links leading you to further discussions on it)

More Fanlore with further links

When white people talk about racism in fandom

Writing with Color - Resource blog for writing specifically, but honestly also covers so many topics that it's incredibly useful for doing some self-examination too

I'm not saying you need to agree with everything said in all of these sources, but also if your constant reaction to these discussions as a white person is to get defensive, to dismiss it, etc., I'm saying this in the nicest way possible: maybe sit with that for a bit. Ask yourself why requests like not constantly making fun of a ship gets you in such a huff. Etc. etc.

Lastly: if people would like to add onto this with more resources, that's highly welcome. That said, anyone clowning/harassing/being a bitch on this post will be blocked.

[helloimsoverybored]

A Pretty Long Rant on RPF shippers in the context of David Tennant and Michael Sheen

the entire georgia/anna discourse is so. bullshit. because those are actual, real people, with real lives and real relationships with those around them

Regarding dt and gt, just saying, no one has five children together as part of a pr stunt. Same with Michael and Anna.

And the fact that rpf people fail to realise this is concerning- taking the "my wife" jokes quite literally. News flash, it's a fucking joke. It's not something gt and al are making up to cover up for the fact that their respective partners fell in love with each other (yes, this is an actual take i've seen on this matter)

And idk if the rpf people are just dumb or are fully aware of what they're doing, despite the fact that they're completely tearing apart the lives of real people.

Another retort I've often seen is that fans have the right to criticize celebrities. Yes, yes they do. But breaking down a marriage spanning over a decade isn't criticism! You're creating fake problems out of thin air and for what? Genuinely, for what?

Rpf shippers just automatically assume the worst in both Georgia and Anna, and you know what? God forbid women do anything. Because that's exactly what this is.

They're completely vilifying gt and al because... they're in a relationship with their "blorbo actors?" They're acting like gt/dt and al/ms are fictional characters that you can play around with like dolls but you can't play around with real people's lives! Simply put, it isn't ethical.

I feel like the rpf people just fail to understand the meaning of “real”, because I don’t even know how one can feel so alright and happy by tearing apart the lives of real people. The fact that people are finding every possible way to find problems in their current relationships to suit their fantasies is so fucking disgusting.

Okay now if you're with me so far, I'm impressed. Stay with me because I'm not done yet.

Regarding Georgia, don't rpf blogs just love to criticize her and her parenting methods? That Georgia's just lazy and only wants to drink wine, but omfg. wtf. She has fucking 5 children. I don't care what you think, managing those many kids is NOT an easy task. But also... posts I've seen on this matter never seem to bring up David? Why? Isn't he a parent? Shouldn't he also have a role in parenting? Whatever Georgia does surely won't be against what David believes, right? Wake up, rpf shippers, wake the fuck up.

David almost definitely does have a role in the parenting (anyone willing to fight me on this, come off, I'll give you the reasons) but since he’s all over London at the moment, he probably doesn’t have much time. Which means that gt has to manage 4-5 kids all by herself. So she does actually deserve a break, more than anyone else. But she doesn’t because wahoo god forbid women do anything.

And putting all that aside, what the hell gives rpf people the right to hate on her as if they know her irl. Their default behavioral status is set to mean and bitchy and that’s just. concerning. rpf people need to understand the difference between real life and fiction istfg.

Okay, i swear I'm nearing the end of this rant, please don't go yet.

Sometimes fans do have the right to speak up against an UNHEALTHY relationship. There are multiple examples all over the place where one person has expressed dissatisfaction but no one took them seriously. Except… neither gt/dt nor ms/al have expressed dissatisfaction. At all. It’s actually the exact opposite where they keep fawning for each other. There’s 0 suggestions of any of them being unhappy in their respective relationships apparent from yall overanalyzing their body language to the point where it becomes false.

Do Georgia and Anna ship themselves with each other and ship David with Michael? Yes. But that's a fucking joke. Learn to take a joke, yalls, it will get you a long way. And even if they are the ones doing the shipping, so what? That doesn’t give you the right to. It’s their lives. You’re just a person viewing their lives from a small peep hole known as Instagram.

[dootznbootz]

Hi!! I love your blog and I’m enjoying your Odypen headcanons and theories very much! I recently started reading the Iliad so I’m new to all this and I just want to know your opinion on smth. In song 1, lines 135-140 Agamemnon mentions the bride prizes of several Achaean leaders, including Odysseus. Obviously nothing else is mentioned, no name, just that he has one, too. What’s your take on that? Any headcanons? I honestly hate the whole cheating discourse around him and I don’t want to add more fuel to the fire because in the Odyssey he was clearly a victim!! I would just love to know what you think about this particular thing in the Iliad. Considering the historical and cultural context, having a bride prize was normal in war (albeit awful from our modern standpoint). But Odysseus is a very interesting and complicated character so this could go in many different ways with him, and in any case it doesn’t really change my opinion on his love for Penelope. Thank you! :)

Thank you so much!!! That's so kind! And I'm so happy you're reading the Iliad! I hope you enjoy it! I'm so happy you're enjoying my silly and I DO have many thoughts about it! :D

And very good that either way, it doesn't change your opinion on his love for Penelope. My opinion/interpretation regardless of those lines, that should ALWAYS be the interpretation that people have of Odysseus.

So idk if you've seen my Aspec OdyPen silliness yet and/or my "Odysseus is a half-eunich from the boar". BUT those are my headcanons. (which I can delve into further later)

but I'll go over the canon evidence now. :P

(disclaimer: Slavery is a fucked up thing regardless of the circumstances. this is in no way excusing any of it)

So IDK which translation you're reading, but as someone who's read multiple versions...Some just say "Prize", and with the "it" and "something". I...didn't really see it as a woman and/or specifically a concubine.

Let Achaeans give me another prize, equal in value, something I’ll enjoy. If not, then I’ll take a prize myself by force,                                   something from you or Ajax or Odysseus.

(Book 1, Johnston)

Let the Achaeans find me a prize in fair exchange to my liking, or I will come and take your own, or that of Ajax or of Ulysses; and he to whomsoever I may come shall rue my coming.

(Book 1, Butler)

But if they do not give me such a gift, then I will seize your own prize or Ajax’s or Odysseus’ and carry it away, angering whomever I visit.

(Book 1, Heumann)

So to ME, (I do not know what the actual words said mean) I take "Prize" of "something of equal value" and/or just a slave.

As yeah...My Odysseus is aspec (basically Pen-romantic/Pen-sexual), I kind of plan to WRITE it personally as a bit of a thing with "Grab one of Odysseus' slaves, he doesn't use them as concubines."

And with Odysseus being the one to transport Chryseis, I have it where it's a bit of "I'll go bring her to her father. Take any slave you wish from my tent if you must. I don't care."

Agamemnon dragged a swift ship down the shore, chose twenty sailors, loaded on the oxen, offerings for the god, and led on fair-cheeked Chryseis.          Shrewd Odysseus shipped on as leader. All aboard, they set off, carving a pathway through the sea.

(Book 1, Johnston)

(Also with Ajax and his girlfriend/bride prize, I think this kind of made him extremely worried. My Odysseus and Ajax have "special beef" even BEFORE the war but they are fine about it by the war. Odysseus not only doesn't have a concubine or slave woman he's attached to but he also was helping a bro out in a way lol.)

And Odysseus is a king and a piece of shit. It's horrible but it feels in character for my lil asshole to basically use pretty slaves in trading. "Hey, you like lighthaired girls, yeah? Well, you have that really pretty silver-studded sword...I want it. Would you like to exchange?"

I want to make it clear that I'm not writing like this or interpreting this in the way of "UwU Odysseus is too of a good boy for that." as that feels icky to try and "make everyone else shitty to make him 'better'". It's literally because Odysseus is just simply LIKE this. He has basically no libido/sex drive if Penelope isn't around. (I'm keeping this as safe for wormlings as I can so I'll leave it at that.)

An old wip post explains it more but I'll also put the wip itself here to kind of explain lol

Like... Love and Lust only exist in Penelope for Odysseus and vice versa. But he's still an asshole.

Not only do they just give SUCH ace vibes to me but also like, ngl, this is really nice to write and "let out some frustrations" with vent writing. I relate to Odysseus in a lot of ways and the whole "People/goddesses won't leave you alone despite wishing to be left alone" and the "pretty asexual" is really nice to vent through him. :')

I can't bitch someone out for trying to "change my mind" but Odysseus can. It's another reason why my Odysseus is a "pretty boy" as he is in canon as well :P

BUT these are just MY headcanons and/or what I plan to write, while I just don't really vibe with Odysseus being with folks willingly other than Penelope I have big gay for her. I live vicariously through Odysseus I can't stop others and other people COULD find evidence of Odysseus being with others if they truly wanted.

[melissa-titanium]

i and b for theee ask post mayhaps if i may

twirls hair in fingers smiles

I - Has Tumblr caused you to stop liking any fandoms, if so, which and why?

B - A pairing–platonic, romantic or sexual–that you initially didn’t consider, but someone changed your mind.

oh my god ok okw ait. imgonna do the second for mp100, md and ln cause those are my main girls right now .

I - honestly?>?? um. a little bit for every fandom ive been in. but twitter has caused me the most grief LOL.....

id have to say homestuck first cause the homestuck fandom is just. fucking RAMPANT with people who mischaracterize.

murder drones second for the same reason but ... it's smaller so its more manageable. there's always going to be bad apples in fandom space no matter what you do unfortunately.

that is exactly why my first mission once i get into an interest is to scope out the coolest people in a fandom and get them to be my mutual. there are a bunch of people who have yet to follow back but. i am persistent. if i have you in my sights you better believe we're gonna be buddies.

for murder drones i think this was mainly ...

@ / electronix-arts @ / 400terahertz @ / randygrim @ / jamieenthusiast @ / ghoulinfuschia @ / yorkistarbomb @.t1rkras rip tirkras :( I JUST CLOSED THE TAB WITH MY LIST IN IT FUCK. ITS OKAY GUYS IF I FOLLOWED YOU THAT MEANS I THOIGHT YOU WERE AWESOME IM SORRY IF YOURE MISSING FROM THIS LIST. BAWLS. also theres a lot of other people on twitter who r cool and i hope they come to tumblr because we all know what twitters like LOLLLLLLL.....

for mob psycho. off the top of my head???

@ / bugcatcherkit @ / metukika @ / bonk-boink @ / bizarre-blues @ / percycoolguy @ my wonderful mutual bloodpopdreams on twitter. queen get out of there @ and... YOU!!!

I WAS SO FUCKING HPYED WHEN YOU FOLLOWED ME BACK U HAVE NOOOOO FUCKING IDEA.

B - ok. fuck. ok. for mp?? RITERU. breach of trust & suitablyskippys one fake relationship fic made me go absolutely fucking insane over them.

breach of trust already on its own is an INCREDIBLE fic but seeing how teru & ritsus dynamic developed without mobs influence was... so so so interesting. and suitablyskippy is just a fucking awesome writer no questions asked so their fic made me love it even more LOL.

also. i might sound insane for this one because its literally one of the most popular fucking ships but. terumob ? like. ok . i know. but i didnt interact with the fandom until after i finished the damn show & didnt pick up on ANY of the undertones of their interactions so it came out of complete left field to me as the most popular ship.

my immediate thought was oh its going to be a johndave situation or something where ekurei was the most popular but then serirei took its place. but i was completely fucking wrong LOL.

BUT YEAH im not insane over terumob but i think they r funny if done right :))

FOR MD... um. genuinely nothing. LOL. the fandom has done a shit ass job of convincing me to like ANY pairings, platonic or otherwise. in fact its steered me away from alot of them.

i genuinely liked nuzi until seeing a lot of the discourse around it LOL...

to be fair i am not a big shipper. i see romantic relationships from a purely analytical point of view because a) autism, and b) aroace.

BUT IN SHORT...i don't HATE all murder drones pairings, i just like to see them through my own personalized lens without any fandom influence :)

LITTLE NIGHTMARES IS DIFFERENT CAUSE. LIKE. ??? ROMANCE?? DUDE HALF OF THE CHARACTERS ARE CHILDREN AND THE OTHER HALF ARE MONSTERS TRYING TO EAT THEM. THE KIDS ARE TOO BUSY TRYING TO SURVIVE AND NOT STARVE TO DEATH AND THE ADULTS/MONSTERS ARE TOO BUSY TRYING TO K I L L T H E C H I L D RE N . AINT GOT NO TIME FOR ROMANCE !!!!!!!!! BUT in terms of platonic pairings. the fandom didnt really change my opinion on any BUT im in the middle of reading a reaaaally good fic that expands on flashlight girl's character (called flicker in this fic,) and explores the idea of runaway kid & six having a dynamic. it's super fun & INCREDIBLY well written and im very sad for when i finish reading it cause its unfinished and was last updated in 2022 </3

WHEW this was long HELPPPPPPPP. THANK YOU FOR SENDING THIS ASK IM GIGLGIGN <3333

[paragonrobits]

there's a few ships i specifically dislike because they did not happen in canon and their supporters complain non-stop about how the series personally betrayed them (often for a relationship which is not only noncanon but the characters in question barely interact and this hypothetical relationship is unrelated, or even contrary, to their narrative arcs) but a lot of the discourse they create around this is also eerily similar to the discourse you see with people propping up a faction or group that is inherently antagonistic and, using very similar arguments, these people straight up make up stuff to make these groups look better, and their opponents (the canonical protagonists, the characters they view as romantic rivals for their fanon ship) as being villified in very similar ways.

Let's take, for example, that One ATLA Ship. You know the one. The one that those big name fans never shut up about; the most frustrating discourse about it is that the diehard shippers have straight up invented all manner of details and criticisms that have no actual relationship to canon, and this is important because the validity of their arguments revolves entirely around these facts they've made up and have no basis in canon.

Lets take, for example, the ever popular 'Katara should become a bad ass Fire Lady and rule over the Fire Nation' fic concept. A lot of this premise requires certain details that either directly antithetical to established canon, or presume aspects of the character that are not canonical. The Fire Lady has never been shown to have any real political power at all, and novels have indicated that the consort to the Fire Lord has only one purpose: to produce heirs. That's it. They have no political power at all. And to be blunt, these fans SHOULD realize this because the Fire Nation has been established as exactly the sort of empire that puts all its power in the hands of an autocrat revered as a god-king.

Other facts further tear down this notion. Katara is characterized as wanting freedom and happiness for everyone, regardless of nation, but she is also characterized as someone who loves her homeland and would prefer to live there, and not abandon her cultural customs and visual details (as much of the Fire Lady Katara imagery does, having her dress entirely in FN style, including her hair, which is culturally an extremely loaded thing, as I understand it). She certainly doesn't give the indication of wanting to rule over an enemy nation like a conqueror. I think a lot of this mentality comes from the idea of 'absolute power = empowerment' to some people, which is also where we get the whole girlboss concept; the idea of absolute political power equating to personal empowerment and being liberating, rather than it being exercising power over others, with all the moral difficulties that entails.

The arguments of the people who support this concept relies heavily on aspects of her character which do not exist in canon or she has given no indication of but her existing characterization leans towards 'no', both in terms of romantic interest and long-term goals. She is the last waterbender of the Southern Water Tribe. She wants there to be more waterbenders from the Southern Water Tribe, and living the rest of her life in a nation populated by the people who systemically destroyed her people's culture and killed most of them is not in any part suggested as something she would want to do.

Now, consider the Sith. In Star Wars canon, they are a pretty blatant faction of bad guys. They are built, from the ground up, to be evil. Their philosphy explicitly hates compassion and any form of love outside the context of possession; their ideology revolves around selfishness and weaponizing hatred, and just about every iteration and established character is incredibly cruel, heartless and even the most reasonable of them, so much so that they are no longer considered Sith, constantly yell at you if you do things like 'give homeless people money' or 'help anyone for any reason that does not further your personal goals'.

There are no canonically good Sith. You cannot be a good person and a Sith, because their ideology explicitly forbids things that generally make a person moral and kind, and that same ideology expressly encourages hatred, jealous possessiveness, and betraying others for gain. When we see Kylo Ren in the first movie of the sequel trilology throwing a violent temper tantrum that could kill anyone nearby when he lost his temper, that's the logical conclusion of all Sith mindsets.

However, the Sith are very widely believed in fandom circles to be more inherently moral or capable of heroism compared to the Jedi.

Part of it, I think, comes from the Jedi's philosophy discourages certain things that people tend to romanticize or believe are essential; its very common to believe in the idea of love being inherently ennobling or making you a better person, in family as the ultimate good, and personal being the most important thing. The Jedi do not permit marriage if you are a part of the order (and its crucial to mention here that leaving the Order is perfectly fine and usually doesn't even have any stigma; Dooku did so and he was well regarded by the Jedi until his actions were revealed), they don't usually have children and instead adopt children into their culture, and their philosophy stresses about letting go from attachment, due to the nature of attachment as inherently jealous and thus giving the Dark Side a way into your spirit.

It is important to remind a reader here that this is NOT attachment as in 'cares for someone' or 'values another'. The term instead is used in the philosophical definition of attachment as jealous possessiveness or, at the very least, the inability to accept that all things fade; everyone dies, or all relationships end one way or another. The desperation to keep those things by clawing at them or pulling them closer is attachment; causing harm, to yourself or others, because you cannot accept the inevitable. This is fairly basic philosophical stuff.

However, because these Sith apologists refuse to accept either the Sith being the big bad villains of the franchise or what the series means about attachment, they view the idea of attachment as a moral good in its own, believing the Sith to be inherently more noble than the Jedi because they believe that a personal attachment induces morality. Just because you care about ONE person does not mean you care about others.

Many people in real life love their friends and family deeply, but could not care less about anyone outside that family. Consider the classic case of a family man or woman who loves their family, kisses their children goodnight, is unfailingly faithful to their spouse, and then goes to work and tortures people for a living, or participates in genocide and the systematic oppression of other people, all without the faintless twinge of guilt or moral compromise.

Caring for a specific person does not induce universal compassion. Love for a speciifc person is exactly that; just love for a particular person. It doesn't guard you from indifference, callousness, or anything at all.

So, its very interesting to me that a lot of these fandom obsessions, despite being very different, have very similar arguments going on about them; whether its AtLA fandom trying to argue that Aang is the most evil person in the universe actually, or insist that the Sith could secretly become the greatest heroes in the setting, while ignoring both Aang being a compassionate hero while his foils are explicitly selfish (and crucially, KATARA is also just as compassionate and not focused solely on her loved ones), and the Sith's iconic technique being a torture beam.

[kewpidity]

answer every question on the proship ask meme POP QUIZ [or is it pro quiz??] i wanna knoooooow

@teacupballerina @hopscorched @emile-hides

sorry it took so long to get to these! gonna post em all together and give two answers where it makes sense since some of these are repeats!

1.) What is your favorite problematic theme/trope that appears in a lot of your ships?

its literally so basic in the grand scheme of problematic stuff, but i love a teen girl x older man, especially when she's in charge lol. i also like things like 'damning secret' (basically people going through forced proximity because they both know something they'd get in a lot of trouble over if it got out) or just forced proximity in general also a fan of one of the characters going insane with covetous love and lust that drives them to do all kinds of fucked up shit about it and also! a handy chart of one of my All Time Dynamics, kid x creature (im counting pompep)

↷↷↷

2.) Are there any problematic tropes that squick you out?

i dont really like anything involving cheating, DV, or hardcore rape/assault, feels bad man

3.) First problematic ship since you joined the proship community?

tbh ive never really Not been proship, it was the only logical thing to me, so this answer is kinda tricky- i guess i could say when i Actively started interacting with other proshippers? but tbqh i dont really remember sorry jklfsdk

4.) First ever problematic ship? (you didn't have to know it was problematic then)

quiche and ichigo from tmm is literally whats wrong with me it fucked up the chemistry of my brain when i was like 12

5.) Ship you don't think it all that problematic, but the rest of your fandom hates?

idk if this really counts Exactly but im baffled to this day by the divide the ML fandom has over the different love square dynamics, please explain to me how every combo is good and wholesome, except for marinette x chat noir, which is somehow bad and degenerate, like even the people working on it make jokes about it like what do you mean its the same gd people???

some others come from spop, where people will try to convince me that hordak x entrapta is abusive despite being one of the healthiest dynamics in the show, or how bow x glimmer is Practically incest cause they. grew up together??? spop discourse was Nuts

6.) Cutest, most vanilla ship you are into.

hmm probably my crossover ship for berry and adrien, they're downright saccharine

7.) Ship the antis in your fandom like, but you think is hella problematic?

Absolutely no hate to the people who like these but oh my god yall there are others but these are always the first two that come to mind

8.) Ship that is (presented as) cute in canon/fanon, but you think is problematic anyway.

kinda just the same ones i just listed tbh

9.) Problematic crackship?

as someone who deals almost Exclusively in rare pairs and crack ships, most of them lmao but if we're going with like. Probably Worst all across the board, its whatever is going on with cedrιc, elyοn, and phοbοs from w..i..t..c..h the depravity that we never got to fully explore with these three is off the charts

10.) Are there any problematic ships that are your NOTPs?

i do not care for wιllιam x mιchael aftοn- p sure its popular in fnαf proship spaces but im just never could come around to it other than that i cant really think of any- usually i only notp things because the fans piss me off about it, and i dont generally have that problem with other proshippers

11.) Darkest fandom you are into?

im really into old rpg horror games in general, and Those get Super Dark, so probably that!

12.) Least dark fandom that you are into!

sοfia the first, but rest assured im Making it problematic

13.) Rec a dead dove fic!

im so sorry but put on the spot, every single fic ive ever read and held dear has suddenly totally absconded from my brain and i cant recall literally any of them

14.) Song that reminds you of one of your pairings!

here just have some playlists i put together for some of them so i dont have to choose anything specific: Grim x Mandy Gaz x Zim Mabel x Bill Snufkιn x Jοxter and my general problematic playlist you'll like em

15.) Silliest reason you've been told not to ship a ship.

'its not canon' is the dumbest shit i've Ever heard and yet somehow is super pervasive in fandom

[maoam]

I'm sorry for this long ass ask. I just wished to get a bit this out of my chest. Feel free to delete it if you would want to feel a bit more positive!

As you said once, if I remember correctly, there is no one more mysoginistic in fandoms (especially shonen) than the het shippers rather than the "fujoshis." In my personal experience, at least, I rarely have seen people hate a girl because she is in the way of their mlm pairing. But I have seen in het ships women be especially vile with their words like slut shaming, body shaming (flat chest vs busty discourses).

Especially in the Naruto fandom, I don't understand why NH and SS stans have to be on the march of war against each other, or why pit their favs against each other when they clearly are "not in the way" of their respective pairings, or even harass all other ships. In fact, I Hinata and Sakura are even in friendly terms. If not outright, they don't care about each other's existence for most of the time, I think?? So why so much catty?

Sometimes, I visit NH/SS/NaruSaku blogs out of curiosity, without doing anything but looking. Usually their content is all about shitting on other pairings but just that. They don't support other creators who appreciate the pairings, like writers or artists. Just shit on the rival pairing while be like "unlike that shit, this pairing has sense and is better". Like, they are more obsessive about what they hate rather than what they love. Absurd.

I have seen people call Sakura a cumdumpster (I swear to god that word-) and Sarada a hoe/slut, and considering Sarada is like 12 to 16 years old... well, it weirds me out. Or shame on the fact Hinata is a busty woman and usually that's the only bad thing they can say about her that comes to my mind, along with other slut shaming.

Or the weird obsession Sakura fans have about Sakura's body, like "THIS IS WHY SHE IS NOT FLAT." Why do you care so much if she's beautiful anyway?

I can go long but I won't because it sounds kinda frustrating.

But why can't these people just... stay in their planes? And ignore each other? Or if they love their one true pairing, just support artists or recommend fan fictions they like, or heck do something themselves and create a more positive environment not only for the fandoms but for themselves as well. Because most of the time, they go on anti - or pro tags and just harass people who think differently like they do with you or sneezemonster-

Again, sorry for the rant, and thank you if you had the patience of reading. Bless your day and keep doing what you do! What you write is always interesting to read <3

People mistake fujoshis (or just people who ship gay pairings) complaining about the het ships having no mutual development/how the female character in said ship has no individual development/revolves only around the guy she likes as "hating on the female character/misogyny". Which it isn't. Sure there might be couple who are misogynists, but that really isn't what I usually see. Meanwhile het shippers are indeed very vile in their ship wars.

"I don't understand why NH and SS stans have to be on the march of war against each other, or why pit their favs against each other when they clearly are "not in the way" of their respective pairings"

Because to them shipping is also a contest, and everyone is their competitor. They need to show everyone how they ship the best ship or how "their girl" is the best girl of the show. NH will talk about how Hinata is more "fertile" than Sakura (which is really misogynistic), how she is the heiress, how she is the richest girl in Konoha (lol). All very shallow things, none of them she even earned. And SS will go out of their way to "prove" Sakura is better looking than the other Naruto girls, because somehow that matters more than Sakura not having any dignity in the story... And yes, SS's crazy need to prove Sakura is not flat, sometimes they straight up edit Kishimoto's drawings so she would have a bigger chest.

This is also why these especially crazy people don't flock to shojo as much, since shojo doesn't usually have as big of a mainstream audience as shonen. And maybe they are addicted to one-sided interaction, because they relate to it? They can't relate to a female character that has reasonable feelings?

But yeah, recently I have seen a lot of Historia hate and it's all "she's spreading her legs to the farmer", "Whorestoria", "even her whore mother didn't like her", "blonde whore" and so on from certain het ship fandom. But sure fujoshis are the worst ones for saying Mikasa's character revolved too much around Eren...

[night-dark-woods]

15, 21, 23, 24!!

THANK U ECHO this got so long oops.

15. that one thing you see in fanart all the time

hmmm not destiny-specific (i dont have any d2 specific gripes i dont think) & i mostly follow cool gay & trans ppl so this is much less of an issue than in the wider fandom (every so often some Main Fandom Art makes its way to me and i do a full double take) but like. i knowww they are almost all the same character model in-game but can we please get some characters who arent super skinny supermodels in here. please.

21. part of canon you think is overhyped

not to sound like an edgelord but. the traveler. if we can acknowledge that the Darkness isnt ontologically Evil, i think we can (PLEASE) acknowledge that the Light isnt inherently good. and im not talking about the superpowers we get, they've (narrative team) made it quite clear that individuals choose to do what they will with based on their own morals. but the traveler is, imo, positioned as a Morally Good Agent Of The Light far more than the witness is Of The Darkness, and i think we need to talk more about the traveler's agenda!!! again, this complexity isnt completely absent from the narrative, but it doesnt feel like those interpretations are... metatextually supported igss? like zavala's frustration with the traveler leaving feels more like a very christian (as someone who was not raised religious) test of faith that zavala (and the canonical YW) have Passed and will be Rewarded.

where's tevis my best friend tevis. we need more characters with that pov. god is real god resurrected you god gave you a second chance at life with no memories of your past and a guardian angel (a "chattering oversoul," to quote toland) to tell you where to go and who deserves to die and raise you every time you fail just to throw you back into the divine crusade. like. lets talk about that a little more!!!

23. ship you've unwillingly come around to

this is hard bc i am in general very willing to "yes-and" ANYTHING with a hint of chemistry or a fun dynamic. it may not compell me but if you can point out a narrative similarity btwn characters i will almost always be down. unless its one i hate ("hate" being a strong word. really its just the strongest possible apathy) bc i contain multiudes :thumbsup:.

i can't think of a pairing i started out disliking and then changed my mind about due to fandom unfortunately. the closest would be igss that i hate crow/amanda as its written in the text BUT my perhaps controversial opinion is i think transitioning could fix crow specifically the version of crow i have in my head who did not get uldren's memories back. SotL was so good for the overarching plot of d2 but so so so bad for the type of awoken-enjoyer i am & imo the like... thesis statement of what a guardian is lol!

so unfortunately i dont have an answer for this one (i dont think "i like the pretend version i made up in my head" counts as coming around on a ship lmfao), bc you can pair any two destiny women and ill be like yeah for sure! and i have curated my online space well enough that i rarely see any other kind of ship, and when i do its gay men (o14, uldren/jolyon, someone i follow is cooking something with saladin/drifter which is inspired. i love whatever is happening there) which is like cheering absently for a sports team idc about but support on principle.

24. topic that brings up the most rancid discourse

mara. its always fucking mara. literally spent an hour and a half last night rehashing d1 mara-course in a server with someone who has not read any lore. which is fine! thats a fine way to engage with the game! its a valuable perspective! but use i-statements and accept that you are coming to the table with 10% of the facts about the character.

honorable mention goes to anything about redemption arcs (and savathun specifically)- most recently that fuuucking saint killing sav repeatedly lore tab. and if you (general) cant be assed to care about evil women (skill issue, but whatever), thats also backsliding YEARS on saints characterization and i dont even care about saint!!!

so really the answer is misogyny lmfao.

[7m7n7]

lmao @cosmicjoke just curious...do you actually even believe what you wrote? or are you just that pathetically lacking in self-awareness? it literally takes an EFFORT to even scroll through how much you blabbered about me FOR DAYS, HOLY SHIT LMFAO. anyway, scroll away in this one i guess, since it includes some receipts from poor blameless wittle ewuwi fandom you're claiming is "mostly good" and just must be "defensive" to awful people such as myself :-(

Yeah, i said you woobiefied him (which is a degradation of character no matter how much you froth from mouth 🙂) and YOU wrote me 3 different wholeass paragraphs and in one of them accused me of sending you hate. And you still do, despite the fact i had literally no reason to do so. wanna suck up to eruri fandom that bad, huh? you're so fucking stupid and SO obsessed with retaining that moral highground you SO CLEARLY jack off to, you're even letting eruris who hate you using you to get back at me. who do you think those anons and sock accs you're chatting w are? "this dumb bitch comes at me with insults and accusations" what a hilarious sentence! can you write one sentence without projecting so intensely that you need to be in a mental ward?

"self shippers are so jealous uwu" OHHHHHH MY GOD LMAO. the fucking eruri rhetoric of GRAND PROJECTION. NO fucking self-shippers gives a fuck to eruri you absolute dumbass 😭 entire discourse happens bc eruris harass them (and other levi shippers) bc of THEIR OWN JEALOUSY holy fuck!!! how can you be so fucking disgustingly biased? and even though you know i also like rivaere and have no problem w other levi ships, you're trying to use me as a scapegoat to "prove" self-shippers are "homophobic" and against "gay ships" start discourse with real levi stans bc some of them also didn't validate your ridiculously awful levi takes apparently. even though you also should be well aware tons of OC shippers also enjoy or don't mind eruri, you're literally attacking people JUST bc they disagreed with you in a previous discourse, just like what you're doing to me right now.

LMAOOOO nobody's crying anything you braindead loser, and the only one getting "curb-stomped" is your pea-sized brain trying to generate a sentence that doesn't have five contradictions and failing pathetically. "if they just left a sentence exactly like what i had in mind uwuwuwu i wouldnt have started to froth from mouth uwuwuuw how dare they accuse me of woobiefying levi when i obv woobiefy him uwuuuwu 🥺" LMAO nobody is obligated to treat your fragile ass like glass, not my goddamn problem you're so fucking pathetic you start losing you GODDAMN MIND when someone strays a little outside what you deem as acceptable. i didn't throw insults or anything at first either, i just said what it is: that you woobiefy his character, and you clearly can't stand being told the truth. Once again: you %100000 woobiefy him and resent people who don't agree with you. the fact you're THIS vitriolic towards people (thanks for showing i wasn't the only one, at least!) acting like i tainted your honor shows that enough. you literally wrote a "call out" bc of one comment which YOU turned into a fight. you lack introspection madly and you constantly project, so ofc you're just gonna spiral into another fit of rage when you see this, but you can't fool people who are unbiased no matter how much you blabber on 🙂

Ohhh lmao, it reaaaaaaally couldn't be more obvious you have beef with people who like top levi. that's literally it. Do you fucking realize how goddamn creepy you are when you talk about how i must want to get "smacked around" by a man just bc i said you were woobiefying him? You're a fucking freak. You have no idea what i even like (since you're so curious, i enjoy a wiiide range of levi) but this doesn't have anything to do with what we talk, you think people don't woobiefy characters they like as tops? bc it's SUPER common in most fandoms. the way you immediate resort to talking about people's sexual fantasies is freak behaviour and shows where your true problem lies. and what does this even mean "what the actual reality of Levi's sexuality would likely be"? Do you think people who have trauma can't be dominant? "Assuredly wouldn't enjoy sexual aggression" Why, were you in the room when he was banging people? That's just your hc you're pushing as canon, AGAIN. You want everyone to act like their hcs are just ooc hcs, but they have to accept your hcs as canonical regardless of how much bullshit they are. There's this insane push against *any* top levi content from eruri stans which they dub exactly as you do even though it doesn't reflect the fanon at all, and it makes it TOO OBVIOUS what your real issue is. Lmao, an eruri shipper who has a problem w ppl who like top levi, what a fucking surprise! 🙂

also this is from that @p-ssypink imbecile who's also obv an eruri

stop projecting and pulling discourse out of your ass. "forced masculinization" levi is already a hypermasculine character in canon, you clown. which probably makes you cry :^) and what does this have to do with homophobia? you think all gay men are feminine? pretty sure such stereotyping constitutes as homophobia. anyway, i said "my deal is im in love w him" bc that clown said something like "your whole deal is your hate for eruri rather than stanning levi" i think that message was cut from the og. obv loving a character doesnt make anyone an authority. but "every eruri is out to get self shippers bc they're ego-maniacal lunatics who cant separate fanon from canon and only see levi as a smol bean omega bottom to be protected" Yes, you got one thing correct, congrats! :) 👏🏻 That's exactly how %99 of eruri shippers are like and anyone who has been in this fandom long enough knows that. But "to be protected" is misplaced, since they mostly get off on degrading and torturing him. sometimes they just like to pretend they have any sympathy for him since they've been accused of being levi haters since ALWAYS, lmfao, but don't worry, i can send you a lot where they admit that too. and ofc, the pretend sadness fits right into their agenda with that sad pathetic little doormat levi they want.

anyways. am i homophobic or are people who consistently emasculate a character in %99.9999 of their fanon bc they think being feminine or bottom is degrading the ones who are homophobic? or maybe calling him the f slur constantly, you'd think qualifies? you don't think treating him like a "little twink who's only job is to get fucked" is fetishistic and homophobic, is that tooootally okay for you? What about bullying and mocking people who think differently and forcing their hcs on them, is that fine?

"inability to top" hmmmmmm i wonder how do these people see t/b roles and why they're so aggressive about them 🤔

plotting to get a levi/oc video down....kudos on that courage to admit that on their main! 👏🏻

there are so many, this was veeeeeeery hard to pick tbh but here are just few examples. and no, these aren't just one off events or "bad apples" and all of these people are known eruris, and some have thousands of followers. you may accuse me of "making hating eruri my entire online identity" which is fine and dandy. but ENTIRE eruri fandom makes their identiy hating on what they deem is a threat to their glorification fantasy.

as a bonus here are some multishippers who love eruri talk about the same issue being so common as well 🙂

i think it should be clear why :')

and @jayteacups saying this nonsense, idk if theyre just playing obtuse but lmfao. some people just don't know mentality in shipping communities enough soooo

having an OC/self-insert have NOTHING TO DO with what im talking about when i criticize self-inserting/identifying etc with a character. and what i'm criticizing isn't even the fact they self-insert into a character lmfao, it's the entire toxicity it brings, bc through overly identifying w some inadequecy of a character (in this case it's obviously the fact levi's more popular and attractive than erwin that bothers them) they grow jealous and resentful, bend canon to alleviate their insecurity + derive ego wank and attack others who don't validate them. as a result, practically all they do is degrading levi in every way and use him as a validation device (and other characters too btw, just look at how they treat zeke) to make erwin come off "superior", gatekeeping levi bc they can't stand seeing him w other characters, even real life fangirls, both out of possessiveness but also bc it ruins their narrative where erwin's the "conventionally attractive" one. that's the reason for the push against people who like levi in a "hetero" way (read: Top, masculine, alpha, daddy, het, whatever bc they think it translates into "conventionally attractive" lmfao, and precisely why they love bi erwin but NEVER bi levi). and this isn't just against self-shippers, they treat every other levi fandom similarly, and these ships also get mocked as "self insert ships". ironic considering their treatment of erwin puts early ff.net mary sues to shame 🥴 they can't be honest about jackshit bc it ruins their glorification fantasy where erwin has to be the one that ship is all about. they're the definition of "have my cake and eat it too", they act like they barely tolerate levi just for erwin's sake but bitchfight over him every second with everyone, depict him as a one-sided simp for erwin, try to alleviate their insecurity by reducing him to a loser doormat while doing the exact opposites towards erwin.

⬇️ gotta be pretty self explanatory lmfao

^ Very famous and beloved people among eruris

despite the fact there's a lot of pushback, they'll still argue tooth and nail that women wouldn't like levi and would prefer erwin. Why do you think this is soooo important to them? :^) ⬇️ lol wonder why they want him to convince ppl he's "feminine" so bad! almost like it's bc they see it as unattractive and degrading! but sure, we're the sexist homophobes for hating eruri fans, right? oh and the white supremacist rhetoric also so common - bc i've never seen anyone refer to being blonde in MEN as a good thing outside eruri fandom - since it's a feminine stereotype. "tall DARK and handsome", no? :') But they'll use ANYTHING just to make erwin look better, so they're pretend it's related to generic beauty standards rather than, idk, fucking rantings from hitler's headquarters. maybe some other day i should post them calling him aryan, hmmm....

look at how they act towards even their own (rare good ones lmao) artists when they depict levi in a conventionally attractive way, they bash on it and call it "hetero" hmmm :')

Oh oops they already said the quiet part loud! 😱But going around shitting on artists and calling levi "erwin's submissive little bitch" is okay to you, right?

By the way, one of the anons cosmicjoke made a fake acc to come at me just now on twitter bc i called out one of the eruris calling levi f*ggot. Apparently according to them it's just no big deal, that's just calling levi "gay". :') linking it bc too many pics: https://x.com/emeraldsas77759/status/1801556666556559451

Just a small taste of what eruri fandom is like, since most people here on tumblr don't have a fucking clue. Anyway cosmic"joke", what an apt name. Now, you can puke blood all over all you want like the useless, pathetic eruri ass-kisser you are and write few other novels for my sake! don't get too comfy with those erwin stans who are now sending you their love instead of harassing you tho lmfao!

(^ bc they said levi had a bolo tie of his own and MAYBE he wasn't wearing erwin's bolo tie in the FUCKING OFFICIAL ART LMFAO)

"don't ruin the rep of our fandom they're not eruris uwu" Familiar argument, isn't it? :') bc THAT'S what they do, creating ungodly amounts of toxicity, shitting on everyone, intruding in everyone's spaces, then when they get even a little pushback, they start screeching like little rats trying to shift the blame on others. These are the people you defend when you defend eruris. But hey, you can continue to suck up to them, try not to step one milimeter out of line tho, saying levi isn't erwin's dog may get you death threats. Have fun, goodnight, good luck! 😘

[ihatemisinformstion]

I hate TikTok so much you have no idea how much I hate it they hear one little thing out of context and then they suddenly say it’s canon hurting like half of there own community because they hate queer black people for some god awful reason I don’t even know about the micro aggressions or the fact that people think HOBIE x miles is a proship I will say this once and I will say this again I will LIGIT clear everything on hobie having a canon age because he does not. And I’m tired of people on TikTok and anywhere else saying the same thing and I might change this into my second acc just for flowerpunk and I’ll actually put my name but I’m not gonna cause I don’t wanna have this turn into a big thing if they do confirm he’s over 18 but anyways I’m going to give all my points cause I think people see something and they automatically think it’s true

To the people saying he's 19/20 that was a director talking about his concept design and could be more based on the comics it's safe to assume that Sense another director said it's up for interpretation and Gwen said he's about her and miles age then he's most likely a teen below 18 and was aged Down for the movie and it's kinda obvious because he hangs around the teen squad don't litsen to the misinformation everyone is sayin as well as the clip that people are talking about is completely out of context and so I need you to all stop it!! I’m not even an adult and I despise pro shipping it’s one of the things that triggers me into things it’s weird and it’s weird your putting a silly ship into this horrible topic so many think it’s ok to put in because the age is unconfirmed half of you people just don’t like queer black people and I am one so for the love of god stop calling people proshippers when they view hobie as a kid!!!

Phil Lord who's also a director said it's up to interpretation/headcanon plus even likened him to Sex pistols who started off young. Alsp like I said the whole Gwen and Hobie implied/jokes about being together thing would be weird as f https://twitter.com/sillyabtspiders/status/1666405777009958913?t=ct4kf0PoYIeUHwsP3tsHDQ&s=19

Of course there’s the other video but again that is concept hobie and prowler hobie not even the hobie we See as well as HOBIE is Most likely aged down and based off teen hobie stop bringing it up because it doesn’t matter!!! I’m literally so upset with being called a proshipper and such and it’s actually really stupid that I have to fight on this because everyone other ship is fine except when there both black and queer it’s weird to how much people care and I’m so tired I’m so very tired of it. I literally cannot take it anymore it’s weird you people are just as weird I’m just so upset right now and by the way I’m writing you probably have already seen me post a bit on my main but it’s embarrassing how you all cling to one thing

I feel great comfurt in this ship I do with a lot of dynamics and I don’t even ship punkflower hard I just think it’s cute but the way you people look at soemthing and think “wow proshipper” is insane because eTHATS NOT WHAT IT IS IM SORRY ITS NOT IT MAKES ME SO FRUSTRATED and I can’t tell if it’s cause I’m getting hyper fixated on this or what but I hate when this happens because wir causes so many people stress for no reason but your stupidity

Unless every single director comes out and says that HOBIE is older than 18 and not with Gwen and miles I will delete this and actually admit to it ok I’m not unreasonable I’m angry but that wouldn’t make sense because why would they tease romantic relationship as well as having hobie be with the minor coded charachters all the time

IM SO SORRY IF YOUR STRESSED BY THIS BECAUSE IM THE SAME I JUST FEEL LIKE WE WILL NEVER WIN and it’s so AKWARD I seriously hope that this whole situation gets cleared up and people will be able to ship and have there family dynamics and I’m sorry for anyone who doesn’t wanna see discourse just wanted to finally clear everything up because I know it stresses me out so I can’t imagine how other people feel

[practically-an-x-man]

1, 10, 13 and 24 for the ask game? (hope you had fun at round two of Deadpool & Wolverine!)

Thank you so much!! (and I did!! it's just as good the second time around!)

Since you mentioned the movie, I'll answer for the Deadpool/X-Men fandom :D

Choose Violence Ask Game

the character everyone gets wrong

This is less about the character and more about how fanfic authors write him, but... Deadpool himself. I get that he's tough to write, and it's hard to do fourth-wall breaks and have them come across as funny rather than cringey, but it's just... I don't know how to describe it, it's just not quite right. It just comes across as super heavyhanded rather than playful and cheeky. Even when people manage to get his characterization decently accurate (though that's also rare - as is typical of fanfic, he gets smoothed out and softened a lot), there's something about his style of humor that just never seems to land in the fanfics I've read.

Maybe it's just that his humor translates more to a visual-forward media like comics or movies, and it doesn't quite work in pure prose, but it just irks me either way.

10. worst part of fanon

The X-Men of course is a super found-family-heavy franchise, and I love that in canon... but people get so weird about it in fanon. It's the same pitfall you see in found family tropes a lot, where people try to ascribe these nuclear family dynamics onto the characters regardless of whether it fits, and it grinds my gears so much. Yes, these people love each other like family! No, that does not make Charles and Erik the dads and Logan the grumpy uncle and Kurt the baby brother or whatever! They don't have to have an assigned "role" in this found family dynamic, and their dynamics in canon are way too complex to even fit those roles without chopping away massive pieces of their characterizations.

13. worst blorboficiation

RAVEN FUCKING DARKHOLME!! Look. I love her. I really really do. But oh my god she needs to stop being people's blorbos. It's a mix between people who have only seen the movies turning her into this sweet, monogamous, never-does-wrong hero character, and people who have actually read the comics getting rightfully pissed off at that characterization.

I don't think Jennifer Lawrence made a bad Raven, and I think it works for her as a young Raven still trying to find herself, before she has the confidence that will lead to her being the bisexual, morally-flexible antihero we see in the comics, but I also think that people get way too devoted to that depiction of her and brush away all those sharper sides.

24. topic that brings up the most rancid discourse

Anything ship-related, especially when it relates to Scott, Jean, Ororo, Logan, or some combination of the four of them. I hate shipping discourse as a whole, but there's something about those four characters that just send people into this absolute frenzy over what the "right" ship is.

I've only seen it kicking back up again, first with X-Men '97 and now with the Honda Odyssey scene in Deadpool and Wolverine. Y'all. It's fiction. All of your ships can coexist, it's not like the fictional characters are going to seek out a divorce lawyer because you posted some rarepair fanart.

[deafeninggardenerpanda]

franflam (they are not sisters)

ahahahahaHAHA this is exactly what i was expecting people to send in when i said "controversial ships". no one is ready for one of my signature franflam tangents

under the cut:

you know the last time i did this ship bingo thing someone asked me about franflam too and i just flat out refused to respond because i didnt want to touch the discourse with a ten foot pole. either me putting my opinions here will get me cancelled or it will summon some people hopefully sane about this discourse. i love gambling

to preface, my honest opinions on the matter are that whatever the hell those two got going on in canon is queerbaiting. i say this as someone who bought star allies on a whim at gamestop as their very first kirb game like two years after it released, not even knowing kirby still made games at that time, and thus played the game with zero biases towards anything but yeah those two were written with a weird attachment to each other and it would be stupid to outright deny that. do i think franflam is canon though?: absolutely not and also i hate everyone who claims that with a passion. you could make a claim with a reasonable amount of evidence for either side of the argument and the fact that its even remotely possible both could be true at once, along with kumazaki himself either refusing to elaborate or confirm, or giving even More support to Either side is absolute bullshit and any sort of grey area here is totally his and the writers faults so hey can we all stop arguing about what the "correct" answer is when there literally isnt really one

anyways with that out of the way, heres all of the reasons i hate franflam without mentioning "potential incest" as a concern even once

their dynamic in canon is stereotypical angry black woman is overprotective of stereotypical dainty elegant white woman. hate that. gives me bad vibes. the whole "to show one character is in love with the other, they talk about their love interest nonstop every half second" trope is absolutely HANDS DOWN my absolute least favorite romance trope EVER. it drives me absolutely insane. thats the #1 way to get me to hate both of the characters and their relationship the fastest. holy shit shut up and focus on the story and whats happening around you instead of shoehorning mention of the other person into your words nonstop. hate that. i also hate the "person a is overprotective of their love interest" trope too, esp when it extends into jealously of the other person hanging out with others (sparkling pupupu world does this, for example). feels gross. can feel infantizing. if people see that as romantic good for you but i can not see it ever. its overly possessive. i think having a trio of mages and having two of them being separated and off fucking around on their own all the time as their "happy ending" is bad writing, especially when it comes to zans character being so heavily affected by her isolation from others and how hyness treated her AND YOU JUST GO AND SEPERATE THEM INTO FRAN+FLAM AND ZAN+HYNESS ALL THE TIME FOR SOME REASON HELLO. JUST MAKE ONE MAGE CHARACTER IN THAT CASE IF TWO OF THE TRIO HAVE NO DEVELOPMENT OR PURPOSE OTHER THAN TO FUCK OFF BY THEMSELVES. and then people who ship franflam also often end up shipping hynzan cause of that EWWWWWW GROSSSSSSS. also fran+flam being more close because the jambacult is a broken family that needs to heal Or them being more close because flam is an overprotective older sibling are INFINITELY more interesting to me as concepts than: "fran+flam are closer to each other and not zan because theyre dating and thus inherently dont care about zan as much because platonic relationships are always secondary to romantic". hate that. and the fandom. oh my God as people might be able to tell by all of the arrows on the bingo sheet i have fucking FEELINGS about this this needs a whole new paragraph

okay so. so 😍. i have this thing i call "red flag ships" where the ships are fine as a concept on paper but for some reason the shippers are just absolutely Rancid and that throws me off from liking the ship in its entirely and i get really sussed out by anyone who ships it. franflam is a red flag ship. i think the shippers have gotten so used to being yelled at by people who think theyre siblings that theyve pavlov'd themselves into being insanely hostile and aggressive to anyone who doesn't ship them. at least thats what i can tell from anyone whos Open and remotely loud about shipping them. istg i am not joking in the slightest when i say 95% of my interactions with people who Happen to be big or even decently into shipping franflam have been godawful. the convos dont even have to be around franflam i just think the ship inherently attracts awful people because its only aggressive toxic people who arent scared about shipping it openly. is that generalizing?: Yeah but thats just my personal experience. i have never met someone loud about liking franflam or who makes content for it that wasnt an awful asshole or yikes person in some way

that said, people who really like the ship but are quiet or lowkey about it usually end up being super chill and cool. its just the goddamn Fandom i have an issue with really. so anyone whos normal about it i am so sorry for you lmao

in a somewhat unrelated manner, i used to be somewhat close with someone who had franflam as their ultimate otp and God they fucking sucked. apart from redirecting every convo ever to be about franflam, they were also insanely nasty to anyone who even remotely saw them as siblings because they inherently saw it as an attack against franflam, so theyd always be making comments like "can you believe anyones stupid enough to see them as siblings" and "kinda misogynistic and lesbiophobic that metadede and marxolor are more popular than franflam when franflam is so blatantly canon" and yadayadayada they would say that shit completely unironically even right in front of me when they knew i hc'd them as siblings. i could complain up enough of a storm about that person and all of the insane things they said and did to fill up another 10 paragraphs but in general they were awful and really awful to me and multiple friends and you know what. i fucking hate the ship because of that too. sue me i cant stand seeing it around and i get grossed out by it.

on another note if i see anyone trying to push franflam as canon i will kick your ass. it might seem like im complaining about a problem that doesnt exist since tumblr is very anti-franflam, but on other sites its the opposite and if i had a nickel for every stupid "franflam is definitely canon and the only canon option and here's why" argument ive ever heard and could Easily debunk i could buy a fucking mansion. how to tell franflam shipppers its Okay if their ship isnt canon challenge: impossible (generalizing ofc, this whole rant is generalizing. take with a grain of salt. man i hate franflam)

[utilitycaster]

Unpopular Opinion: far too many CR fans enjoyment of characters is based only on their romantic relationship with other characters.

Hardly anyone talked/cared about FCG until they were shippable with FRIDA. 95% of discussions about Laudna are in reference to Imogen (and vice versa). Caduceus got a little attention from fans, but that dried up a lot once he was confirmed aro/ace.

If you only seem to care about a character when they're paired up with someone else, do you really care about the character?

Also a like...half agree. maybe more like 1/3.

Things I agree with: I think there's definitely a culture in fandom at large (not limited by any means to CR) that is only interested in shipping. This is a whole conversation I am not going to have at 10 pm while lightly drinking, but I do think this shapes a very large amount of discourse that goes beyond mere shipping, and might even possibly impact the TV industry in that a lot of shows that only blow up in their second or third season (sometimes after they've already been canceled on the back end for low viewership) do so because that's when the romance happens. I also agree that if your enjoyment of a character is solely centered around a ship and not the character on their own then yeah, you don't actually like them. (and yeah, while the 95% figure is probably an exaggeration for effect, it is true that Imogen and Laudna often get folded into each other in fanon such that it's frustrating if you're looking for meta on them as individuals).

Things I disagree with: Caduceus was still extremely popular throughout C2 including when he was confirmed aroace, and while there's definitely more interest in FCG at the moment there was plenty of discussion before. Like, that's just straight-up false and you're welcome to plumb my blog's FCG and Caduceus Clay tags to find no shortage of posts (and many are reblogs, to be clear, not just my stuff). I also think that like...look, I'm a meta writer and a general one at that, I'll talk about whatever character comes to mind, but a lot of people are just out here reblogging and making little liveblog comments, at most, and there is in fact just simply more to comment about when a romance happens because it is an important and significant dynamic!

Also like...god. I am, to quote Brian Murphy, almost entirely made of salt. I'm a hater and proud of it, I love criticism, I'm actively skeptical of nonstop positivity, but also, in the end, I've had favorite characters who were fan favorites, and favorite characters who were imo seriously underrated, and favorite characters who fell somewhere in between, and obviously more content is great but popularity comes with its own challenges (more terrible fanon, for one). The one constant is that even when being a massive fucking hater I have always had more fun when I don't get mad that my faves aren't more popular. Honestly? That's maybe the top thing I hate on - people getting mad that their favorite isn't everyone's favorite, and that people are talking about other things than their favorite.