#and as much as I love Arya and Dany I know that not everything in the books series revolves around them lol

[fromtheseventhhell]

The way jonsas say the vilest shit about Arya and Dany 24/7, but will piss themselves and start crying if you say that their precious little birdie isn't one of the key five is so funny. They need their self-insert to the most specialest girl, so of course they loathe actual main girls

It's so funny to look at how hypocritical they are, cause if you give even 0.1% of the energy they have for Dany + Arya to Sansa they'll throw a fit about how misogynistic and hateful Dany and Arya stans are. They're allowed to write essays on how Arya and Dany are "too far gone", how they're destined to die violent deaths, make everything in their chapters about other characters, and act like they're only props for their little bird but let someone say that they don't think Sansa is going to become Queen and suddenly it's the worst crime ever committed against a woman. And you're right...at the root of it is nothing but jealousy. They hate that Dany and Arya are the most important female characters, they hate that they're two of George's favorite characters, that they have some of the highest chapter counts, and that they're connected to so many plotlines. How is their fave supposed to be the most special character ever when they exist?

[amaltheas-garden]

What if Jon's sweetness in the bittersweet ending is his short lived love with Daenerys?

While I do think the show is probably accurate to what we'll get in the books in the broadest of strokes, there are still a lot of other plotlines to get through before Jon and Dany can even meet. For how long his books are, grrm really doesn't cover all that much time, meaning in just two books, Jon has to be resurrected (which I suspect won't happen until around the halfway point in Winds, since there's no point in Jon dying and coming back just a few chapters later), Sansa has to make it to the Wall, Arya has to return from Braavos and confront Lady Stoneheart, Littlefinger has to be taken care of, Jon and Sansa have to retake Winterfell, and the Starks have to reunite all amidst the growing threat of the whitewalkers. On Dany's side, Aegon has to get to King's Landing, Dany has to become leader of the Dothraki, fulfill all the bits of her prophecy (the 'to go West you must go East' one), and rally her armies to cross the narrow sea, and resolve ALL the loose ends in Essos since whence Dany leaves, that will be the last time we see it. And that's not including all the other stories, like the Dorne plot, Cersei/Jaime/Brienne, and Stannis/Davos/Melisandre, or accounting for the characters still very separate from everything (Sam off in Oldtown and Bran doing three eyed raven stuff). And all this is build up for the final cataclysmic conflict, the song of ice and fire. Now, that is a lot of content to get through, and when you start laying out every single thing that needs to be resolved, it becomes rather apparent why WoW is taking so long. The point is, Jon and Dany are not meeting in Winds, and it would be a miracle for them to meet even in the first half of Dream of Spring. That's why I highly doubt the relationship between Jon and Dany will be a genuine romantic one. Grrm is not the type to do a quick, star-crossed lovers plotline that ends tragically all within the span of a few hundred pages. A Jon x Sansa romance makes more sense, seeing as, if we accept Sansa as the girl in grey, she and Jon will spend the majority of two books with each other.

As for the show, there was nothing bittersweet in Jon having to kill his lover after she becomes a tyrant and threatens to murder his sisters, and for him to end the series by leaving his family for a lifetime of solitude. If book!Jon is destined to go beyond the wall after DoS, the 'sweetness' will be in knowing he did everything in his power to protect his family. No short-term love affair with Dany could ever replace the love Jon holds for the Starks.

Book wise, I doubt the Jon x Dany relationship will be one of genuine romantic love on Jon's part (see pol!Jon theory), and while Jon could end his story alone, I don't think a relationship with Dany is enough to fulfill a 'bittersweet' ending. I also recommend this incredible meta on Jon's ending (it does skew heavily Jonsa-centric) FedonCiadale — Sometimes scrolling through the Jonsa tag, I find... (tumblr.com) and they also have some other amazing answers on the bittersweet ending.

[pixiecactus]

I feel like Arya will have a good ending, but won't she have everything? I believe she will end up in a position of power and helping the most vulnerable. However, I think she is too young to settle down. If that happens, at most Grrm will leave it implicit. And I think she may marry out of duty. The North will be completely destroyed with the long night, and political unions involving the entire house are expected to occur. I think it is too idealistic to think that in a bittersweet ending, she will get ~everything~. I also think he will only leave it implicit because he wants the Stark lineage with the classic look (something emphasized in all the books) to continue through Arya. So I always imagined that AxG would not be endgame for these reasons.

But I'm confident that they'll be friends again. On the romantic side, it's harder to visualize because I don't see it happening while LSH is hanging over them. I don't think Gendry would be inclined to pursue a relationship with her...

i agree a lot with you, but i've some different thoughts too.

i think that arya is going to end up being around 14 years old in ados, and yeah, i completely agree that age is way too young, but then again, let's take a moment to think about how the author has also said this:

He said he'll treat some of the younger POVs like adults in ADwD, even though they're technically young adults. Um… he thinks Arya is "older than some of the 40-year-olds in the book", what with all she's gone through. (source)

and just because the same post has this part in it too, let me add it for shit and giggles:

My friend (who is a big Gendry fan) asked him, "Will Gendry come back?" He said yes, and "laughed mysteriously."

but then again, this is the same author who wrote dany being sold as a child bride at 13 years old, and had catelyn remembering that she was betrothed to brandon stark when she was 12 years old and then one of her daughters got betrothed at 11 years old. so, from the way i see it, arya being too young won't necessarily save her of a lifetime commitment.

i think that i've finally come to terms with the idea that the most that we'll ever get if grrm decides to go down the gendrya route is maybe a "it's now or never" confession of feelings and, if we're really lucky, a first kiss, and maybe that's going to be all the gendrya content in the next books, but also i perfectly see, i don't know, some kind of epilogue, letting us know that the relationship didn't work out and they separated, because i think that gendrya is a first love kind of deal at most.

oh my god, i think that i should have put a disclaimer a long time ago that i'm the type of gendrya shipper that, when consuming jonrya content, realizes that "it was nice while it lasted, but we never stood a chance, fam". like, gendry my boy, go home, wherever that may be, and move on. i'm utterly convinced sometimes that grrm loves his jonrya and he hasn't abandoned them in the overall plot.

about the bittersweet ending: well, i've my own selfish headcanon that i think that for arya this could mean that the remaining stark siblings will end up separated again (i say this is selfish on my part, because besides jon and arya, and arya and bran, i don't care about the other familiar relationships, so it won't affect me that much if that is the case, but it's going to be bittersweet because arya and jon are one of the most important and deepest relationships we have between two characters in the books, and after jon, the other stark that loves arya the most is my boy bran)

i don't know, it's just that my brain has the preconceived notion that of all of the stark siblings, the one who is the most interested in building her own chosen family is arya. (and personally speaking, i hold chosen family in a higher regard than biological family, so i'm obviously biased)

this is going to sound so fucked up, but i also hold the belief that everything that arya has lost (her father, her mother, and her older brother) has actually given her the possibility of forging her own way in life, in the way other women before her couldn't (as an example, you don't need to look further than her aunt lyanna)

and another one of my beliefs is that of all the characters that we have in asoiaf, the only one that i can see choosing to marry someone from the smallfolk by her own volition is arya stark of winterfell. and who is going to stop her? jon and bran? both understand that arya wouldn't marry someone only because it's her duty.

meanwhile i agree that arya's "stark appearance" is more important than people tend to believe; i've never considered that gendry's "baratheon genes" could be an impediment for gendrya happening in the future, and you know, i think this is a fair point to make. (unless that "classic look" stark women carry strong genes and "classic look" stark men carry weak genes, so that could explain why jon has the stark colouring coming from his mother and most of ned's children got their colouring coming from their tully mother, but this is purely wishful thinking... forget it; i just remembered that rhaenys got her appearance from elia rather than rhaegar)

i've to admit that as an adult who values friendships a lot more than romantic relationships because the last ones don't mean anything to me, one of the things i'm most interested in and looking forward to reading is arya and gendry rekindling their friendship, and i tend to believe that this is possibly going to happen courtesy of a big gesture coming from gendry, because to this point in the narrative arya is still convinced that he didn't want to be her friend at all, and you know, our girl is stubborn.

thank you for sending me this ask, i'm kind of surprised that anyone is interested in reading my dumb thoughts, and i've been so embarrased lately about this blog and that i posted a lot of dumb stuff when there's people who are more knowlegdeable about the series as a whole than me.

[historicity-was-already-taken]

History Blog recs

One of my Very Specific interests over the last...idk 10 years, has been reading blogs about the A Song of Ice and Fire series, by historians. I'm not sure what it is about those books: the complex, multi-layered narrative, the author's claim to work creatively with real world history, the micro-arguments contained in every arc, or what, but historians have the most FASCINATING shit to say about those books.*

I've learned so much about the logistics of civilization, the intellectual history of leadership theory, the history of subsistence agriculture, the type of agriculture needed to sustain societies of a certain size, the evolution of military theory, etc from this very specific, Historians Engage With ASOIAF and its Television Adaptations genre of blog.

There is, of course, the late great Steven Attewell's @racefortheironthrone, but I recently discovered this gem: A Collection of Unmitigated Pedantry by Dr. Bret C. Devereaux. I just finished his series analyzing, problematizing, and ultimately debunking George RR Martin's claim that the Dothraki "were actually fashioned as an amalgam of a number of steppe and plains cultures… Mongols and Huns, certainly, but also Alans, Sioux, Cheyenne, and various other Amerindian tribes… seasoned with a dash of pure fantasy."

In Part IV, he writes:

... declaring that the Dothraki really do reflect the real world (I cannot stress that enough) cultures of the Plains Native Americans or Eurasian Steppe Nomads is not merely a lie, but it is an irresponsible lie that can do real harm to real people in the real world. And that irresponsible lie has been accepted by Martin’s fans; he has done a grave disservice to his own fans by lying to them in this way. And of course the worst of it is that the lie – backed by the vast apparatus that is HBO prestige television – will have more reach and more enduring influence than this or any number of historical ‘debunking’ essays. It will befuddle the valiant efforts of teachers in their classrooms (and yes, I frequently encounter students hindered by bad pop-pseudo-history they believe to be true; it is often devilishly hard to get students to leave those preconceptions behind), it will plague efforts to educate the public about these cultures of their histories. And it will probably, in the long run, hurt the real descendants of nomads.

Which just. I LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT IT. Y'all know how deeply concerned I am a. with the outsize influence the entertainment industry has on memory; and b. how little that industry gives a shit about responsible use of its own power. So like, this is my shit. I'm still exploring this blog and it is a TREASURE TROVE.

*I do not include myself in that grouping. My thoughts are like: BUT WHICH ONES ARE THE JEWS DANY IS MY UNPROBLEMATIC QWEEN/AZOR AHAI/PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED/STALLION THAT'S GONNA MOUNT THE WORLD/ETC I CAN'T WAIT TIL SANSA SHOWS HERSELF IS DANY GONNA BURN IT ALL DOWN AND EMERGE FROM THE FLAMES LIKE THAT ELMO GIF IS ARYA GOING TO RIDE A WOLF WOW I DON'T CARE ABOUT BRAN I THINK THE RHOYNAR ARE THE JEWS WHERE IS THE GODDAMN FUCKING WINDS OF WINTER

**Also, I never watched more than 2 episodes of the show. I hated how it added in sexual violence and nudity for no reason when there was already PLENTY of that in the text, most of it with narrative purpose. But then I read the books because it was 2012 and I wanted to keep up with pop culture.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

You know one thing that really pisses me off? When people take attributes, plot points, and arcs of one character and giving them to another. This applies to adaptations, but what I really hate is when the fandom does it.

Like when stansas take things from Dany and Arya, like dragons and Needle, and give them to Sansa. It really shows how they don't actually like her character since they're so invested in her becoming something she never could be. Also they never have good things to say about Arya and especially Daenerys, yet apparently their characters and talents are just fine since they're good enough for Sansa.

I also see this happen a lot with Alicent. I've already talked about her and Aemma, so I won't rehash that. But, I just saw a post of someone coming up with a headcanon that Alicent chose Baelon's egg instead of Rhaenyra. That with people calling her "Mother of Dragons" and drawing her in Valyrian clothing just again shows that apparently Rhaenyra, Daenerys, and Valyrian traditions are totally evil unless their fav is doing those things. I've even seen people giving her Jaehaerys' crown, like a woman ruling is bad, unless it's Alicent. Because apparently her life and titles aren't interesting enough.

These are just examples in the asoiaf fandom. Another fandom that is obsessed with doing this is the Batfamily fandom. The biggest instance that I can think of is in reverse robin aus, where it seems impossible to keep the characters true to their personalities. For example, whenever Tim Drake is the second robin, he becomes Red Hood and does everything the way Jason did. This makes no sense, as Jason’s ties to Crime Alley and his decisions in utrh are not things Tim shares. Unless writers swap around their back stories too, literally nothing that happens in utrh makes sense. But even then, Tim and Jason are fundamentally different people, even if they swap backgrounds, so you'd still have to come up with a new story. What I'm getting at is that giving Tim Jason’s personality, or any other batkid, makes no sense and is just so fucking frustrating.

If you want to write aus where someone swaps situations with someone or if you want to theorize about a character, don't just steal from another character. Especially if you spend so much time and energy disparaging that other character. If you truly love a character, you wouldn't just slap someone else's life onto their's, you'd embrace them for who they are, not try to make them into something they aren't.

[buttercuparry]

You know it always hurt how the actors who played their respective characters on the show, loved them so dearly but Maisie couldn't ever seem to get that footing when it came to Arya. Emilia loved Dany and Nikolaj loved Jaime. Sophie was obviously on cloud 9 regarding Sansa...but Maisie...every time she spoke about Arya, it seemed like she had nothing in on the character except for those popular misconceptions. I know that this is on the actor themselves but Maisie was so, so young when GoT aired for the first time. Granted she could have given those books a chance later, so maybe this is on her but as an actor she was given a script and whatever she had been given, she always nailed it. She trusted those scripts and it is not like even if she had read the books, she could have had a say in the ( lack of )creative decision of the directors. My point is that there was no love nurtured for Arya in the show. With the plotline where Arya spent so much time on the road, it was necessary for them to dress the actor in rags, but still love could have been nurtured with how one chose to tell the story. I know show only viewers of any series often criticize book purists by saying that not everything on page can be translated for TV and it is true, but that's why we have a team of people working on a show so that even when it becomes necessary to leave out certain things, the essence of story is preserved. Or to even bring the story that has already been told in a book onto new heights ( like I have heard them doing with Jacob's vampire show)...but with GoT and especially when it came to Arya, they cut her down to a deformed skeleton of what the character was actually supposed to be. I don't know if I am remembering correctly but Maisie didn't like those ragged costumes. She was in school and Arya's costumes when on run didn't help Maisie's self esteem, and I understand that the get up with the hair and all was a very important part of the story but Arya had other dresses even when on the run! You are telling me Ed Sheereen ( is that how you spell the name) could be an extra on the set but could not get anyone to play Lady Smallwood? You had Sophie in her #girlboss dress at Vale but not one dress for Maisie with acorns? That's Arya's song. Arya's song with Gendry whom Arya fucked in the show. Stupid ass needle costume for Sophie but not even a rich mummer's cloak for Maisie? You butchered her story, you won't give her more than the bare minimum when it came to costumes. You won't style her...how would she know how to love Arya Stark? I also don't know about her friendship with Sophie. Like that's their business but why blindly agree with everything Sophie has had to say about your character? Like I know there was no research done on Maisie's part...that always sucks. But if the narrative set up by the writers too is that distorted and with a friend whose whole personality during filming was of a Stansa...then yeah it is no wonder why she couldn't really love Arya.

[atopvisenyashill]

there’s this old post that’s a comment on the movie the prince of egypt, the scene where moses kisses tzipporah as she’s sleeping and someone said you can tell whoever animated it had been in love before because of how well they capture the feeling in just a few seconds. i feel similar about george & siblings - sometimes i’m reading and i think “this is a man who adores his sisters” ya know.

i was thinking of that a lot while reading dunk & egg, bc the main series goes more into the painful sides of being a sibling - doran’s grief over being the oldest yet the only one still alive, the repeated “promise me ned” haunting ned his entire life, sansa & arya constantly thinking around each other bc thinking of each other is too painful, dany’s dream of viserys in adwd, and jon’s “what do you know of my heart” and the snowflakes melting in robb’s hair are all some of the most heart breaking moments for me because i can feel how much they long for home and home isn’t a place it’s each other, the pain & longing they feel will never ease because the bond between siblings is so unique it can’t be replaced so you just carry this heavy pain around forever.

but dunk & egg…dunk threatens to clout egg like twice every page but he never does it. egg is always talking back but whenever he sees dunk is serious, he bites his tongue and glowers “as only eleven year olds can.” egg insists on being a taste taster for dunk (a prince, a man who will one day be king, insisting that he doesn’t trust any of these shouty bitches & eating everything before dunk does to protect his bastard born, base born, hedge knight big brother like). dunk is always whinging on at egg like some beleaguered, put upon oldest brother and egg fires back immediately with something stupid. “i don’t want to taste your feet in my food” “well your food sucks shit my feet would only make it taste better.”

dunk says when he was a kid he used to chase scrawny little boys around but was told to stop because sometimes little boys have big brothers. and sometimes little kings have big brothers too!

[rise-my-angel]

Because I love salt, what do you find to be the most annoying lines of so-called evidence or foreshadowing for ships you hate? For me it’s hard to pick just one but Jon saying Sansa looked radiant is up there for me because the idea that Jon had a crush on Sansa in the first book or before is so much worse than the thought of them meeting again and then developing feelings (which I still hate, but it’s just not as bad). It’s super normal for people to think their siblings look nice. Arya’s POV chapters also remark that Sansa is beautiful. Ashford theory is annoying because it was originally about the hound and Sansa (also hate this ship but the fans are a million times more tolerable). I also roll my eyes when fans insist that the bride of fire line foreshadows Dany marrying Jon (and I even LIKE that ship but only in an AU in my head where Lyanna is Jon’s mom but Rhaegar is NOT the father)

"Because I love salt"

You have come to the right place as this is an accurate real life photo of me running this blog:

Thats a good one I hate though, multiple siblings and family members in this series all compliment one another. Even characters with bad relationships compliment each other. In the books, Arya recalls that her father calls her pretty, which only Jon ever also called her. Does that mean Ned had romantic feelings for Arya? Or Lyanna for that matter? No of course not. Thinking someone in terms of beauty is zero indicator of attraction in any way.

Also its even funnier with Jonsas because Sansa herself notes that Arya looks just like Jon, and then on multiple occasions notes that she thinks Arya is ugly. So, its even less compelling.

In the show Tyrion compliments Cersei's beauty all the time and we know there is nothing to it. It's reading into something that isn't there beacuse if they ignore the way beauty is used in this series as a common compliment towards other highborns, then its a really simple box to check on really stock symptoms of attraction. (I also dont really enjoy Sansan but it is funny how they just stay in their circle and mind their business like they somehow are winning based on being not fucking annoying alone).

I'm gonna rapid fire for Jon here because pretty much every single ship he has is backed by the worst evidence known to man.

The idea that Jon never thinks about Sansa because he loves her the most is dumb and not how we know Jon works. He holds back what he says not what he thinks. He thinks of Sansa the least because despite being his sister, she treated him like shit because she looks down on him for being a bastard. Jon cares about her, but not anywhere near how he cares about his other siblings who have clearly shown him love and respect.

The worst of Jon and Arya is a very very old outline that grrm scrapped. Its an outline that wasnt used and most of it isnt canon so it is literally a piece of non evidence for a ship that is disgusting. (Both Jonsa and Jonrya make Jons good older brother behavior towards his sisters look predatory and the shippers are all literally too blind to realize it)

Jon and Dany have literally nothing to back that up, because they are staged as moral oppositions to one another, dont know the other exists, and the idea that the motif of ice and fire will be about the coming together of romance is antithetical to everything grrm has established about the themes of his story. They are so far from being a ship that literally the ONLY thing they have to support it is the show and thats an absolute joke (see my every post that got me blocked by jonerys stans for more detail)

Ygritte is a rapist, so I accept literally zero "evidence" on that ones validity.

I also hate the "the actors have chemistry" argument to support really bad ships, because some actors having chemistry doesnt equal good romance, it equals good on screen dynamics in its own unique way. Like Tywin and Arya in season 2 have GREAT chemistry, but I don't need to explain why shipping that is creepy. Catelyn and Jaime have great chemistry, but it doesn't mean anything was actually there which could've worked.

Like shipping is fine, but so many people just INSIST it is canon or meant to be instead of something fun to think about. I joke ship about Stannis and Davos because its fun but I'm not over here arguing that people who don't ship it are "ignoring the text in front of them deliberately".

Also honestly, its really funny to me that you had to specify you'd only like that ship if they weren't related. Big oof on that one. Jonerys stans hate the idea they couldn't be related because they somehow think Dany being his AUNT isn't at all creepy. Like, Dany is related to Jon the way Jon thinks hes related to his MOTHER. There is no capability of romance or attraction there, that's crazy.

People who are biologically related but don't know it, 99% of the time are in fact, still not accidentally attracted to each other because that's biological survival instinct. Anti inbreeding protocol. But they think because DANY was raised to think her families blood superiority driven incest is fine, that somehow means JON would think its fine. Jonsas have no argument for that they just have to pray desperately that Jon would want to fuck his little sister despite how much it makes him look like a predator.

I'm sorry, I hope you have water on hand to wash down all this goddamn salt I just threw at you all at once.

Really, it isn't individual lines that irk me, its the overall tendencies of these ships to put more emphasis on things that don't even exist to justify something they don't even realize WHY people think it's creepy. I don't hate a lot of ships, just...all pro incest ones, and ones that promote predatory/rapist behaviors. Which is why I don't ship much in this series.

We're probably not meant to ship many people in this series if I in any way understand even a modicum of why grrm writes the lack of romance the way he does.

[king-jon-stark]

Hello! Sorry to bother. I was just curious about how you manage to be pro Arya, anti Dany, and anti Jonsa at the same time, when the majority of the people in this fandom are either one of these things, but almost never all. This isn't meant to be rude or an insult by the way, I'm genuinely asking. I mostly have the same opinions as you, and I never saw anyone have this combination of opinions all at the same time.

I see someone I agree with about not shipping Jon with Sansa, but then I see another post from the same person where they justify the conquest of an entire continent via medieval-fantasy nukes. The vice verse also happens, of course, where I'll see someone talk about Dany's downward spiral and all the ways House Targaryen has cannibalised itself, but then they happen to have another post where they talk about Jonsa and how awesome it is.

It's weird, it almost feels like political alliances have formed in this fandom. A lot of non-Jonsas are Dany fans - And if you don't like Danaerys, there's always the Sansa fans, but a lot of Sansa fans ship Jonsa and hate Arya - And if you like Arya and dislike Jonsa, there is always Arya fans, but a lot of Arya fans are Dany fans as well, for some reason. It's a neverending loop.

There is no space for someone who likes Arya, dislikes Dany, and dislikes putting Jon in incestuous ships. If you want to comfortably fit into this fandom, you have to pick one, you can't have them all. And for some reason, that makes me feel like a shitty person, like a hypocrite almost. Because how can I agree with these bloggers on one topic while wildly disagreeing on another? It's probably just my OCD-haver brain being a dick, but it feels like a moral failure on my part.

From what I've seen on your blog, you don't seem to have such problems. A lot of the people you reblog when talking about Jonsa have pro-Dany posts, while a lot of the people in your anti-Dany tags are very pro-Jonsa, but that doesn't seem to bother you much. That's something I admire, to be able to agree with someone on a certain point and disagreeing on another in the same breath, while still remaining confident and comfortable in your opinions.

Sorry for rambling and sorry if what I said doesn't make any sense. This fandom tires the hell out of me, so this is a desperate (and probably unsuccesful) attempt at putting that exhaustion into words. I'll be genuinely grateful if you have any advice to give, gods know I need it.

Hey, thank you for your message :)

I don't really get how the fan base became like this. It feels like many people are either obsessively pro Dany and think Sansa is the devil, or obsessively pro Sansa and think Dany is the devil. I don't get why there is this divide because there are so many characters in the books and TV show and Sansa and Dany's characters don't have anything to do with each other until season 8, it's not like they are long time rivals or anything.

My main advice would be blocking tags. I block both the Sansa Stark and Daenerys Targaryen tag, and it makes browsing through the tags and following blogs so much better (although the button to show the post becomes the most tempting thing in the world)

Also, although there are a lot of blogs that are obsessive with their love of Sansa or Dany, there are a lot of blogs that merely lie one or both of the characters - I don't mind that too much, especially when blocking tags.

Something to remember is that this is a complicated series with very complex characters, so everyone interprets everything a little differently. I follow blogs that I don't agree with everything they say, but I agree with them mostly.

I love discussing Dany and Sansa's characters as antagonists. I think they are brilliant antagonists in the books - I actually think that Dany is one of the best written villains in literature, and her chapters are some of my favourite chapters in the books. Because of this, I love engaging with the anti daenerys targaryen and anti sansa stark tags. I go through them every once in a while and then reblog the ones I like, but I don't feel the need to engage with people's blogs beyond that if I see that I don't agree with their opinions on other characters. If you like engaging with these posts I would suggest the same, but if you don't I would also suggest blocking the anti daenerys targaryen and anti sansa stark tags.

It is frustrating at first to see the amount of tags that will be blocked if you do this, but I promise you you will get used to it and be grateful for the tag blocking feature.

The A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones blogs I currently follow are @fleabottom, @jackoshadows, @tarth, @the-king-andthe-lionheart, @gazpachoandbooks, @shieldofmen, @goodqueenaly.

[leesielex]

So anti Dany's love to say that without dragons Dany would be nothing, that she relies far too much on her dragons, even in the books. I would like to say, you must not have read the books in a long time and are most definitely conflating that with the show and your own fanon. But also, tell me with a straight face the Stark's don't rely just as much if not MORE on their direwolves in the books than Dany does on her dragons?

Specifically Jon, Robb, and Bran but even Rickon as little as he is in the books, and Arya using her warging skills to give her an advantage as well. The only one who doesn't use their direwolf as much as Dany is Sansa b/c Lady dies so early.

The other point I heard made today in the same post was Dany relies too much on fire and blood and doesn't listen to her advisors and have any strategy. Which is a completely contradictory statement.

In the books, Dany uses her dragons exactly ONE time in Astapor to burn Kraznys. The dragons are no bigger than dogs with wings and barely can burn one man. It is the Unsullied she uses to sack the city (after coming up with the strategy to do so on her own). The only other time Drogon unleashes his fire is in Qarth. Dany doesn't order him to, doesn't say Dracarys in the books, that happens in the SHOW. In the books, Drogon sees what is happening to Dany and that these warlocks mean to do her harm and Drogon unleashes his flame and fury on the HOU on his own accord.

For the entire first book, Dany does not have her dragons and everything she accomplished was on her own and of her own merit. She gains the strength and power to stand up for herself and others. She eats an entire horse heart. As a 13 year old girl, she marries a 32 year old warlord from a completely foreign culture she is thrown into and doesn't even know the language. She acclimates and adjusts, learns the language, learns the culture; learns of her people; and becomes their khaleesi. She learns how to be respected by Drogo. And if she wasn't worthy she wouldn't have been able to hatch those dragons because Targaryens had tried to bring them back for over a century and failed until her.

It is entirely contradictory to say that Dany only knows Fire and Blood and relies on it and her dragons too much and that she ignores her advisors because it is her advisors that are telling her she is too gentle, too merciful, and she needs to use her dragons. Her advisors are the ones telling her to use her biggest advantage and bring fire and blood to her enemies! Even Ser Barristan! While Dany is missing on drogon, the Yunkaii having taken hostages including Daario, they want the dragons killed for the hostages return. When asked what Barristan will do when they refuse an alternate offer he replies "Fire and Blood."

It's preposterous to say she has no strategy because in the BOOKS every city she conquers is HER strategy. It was her idea to deceive and trick the slave masters and free astapor. Dany was the one who made them pack up all the slave collars into carts and lug them to the next city to shoot them into the city to inspire slave revolts. It was her who came up with every idea to take every city from Astapor to Meereen. She weighs all her strategies carefully and weighs every piece of advice offered to her and only ignores her advisors because she sees a better option. It was the SHOW that gave all her strategy to the MEN around her, whether it was Jorah or Daario or Barristan or Tyrion even.

And the main point, why is it always bad for Dany to use her dragons one time against like one person to take a city, yet Jon who uses Ghost often to fight and survive or Robb who always used Grey Wind in battle and used Grey Wind to scout the land are never mentioned how they would be nothing compared to any other Joe Schmo in the books without their direwolves? It's a Fricken fantasy series and while characters like Cersei, Littlefinger, and Sansa are meant to be political, characters like Jon and Dany and Bran (who uses his direwolf more than anyone uses their magical creatures) are the FANTASY characters, though they do intersect with political as well, their main focus will be on defeating the OTHERS who are also fantastical characters and won't be defeated by politicking but with the help of the fantasy companions by their sides!

The hypocrisy and ridiculous standards y'all expect Dany to live up to but your fave character couldn't do is just ridiculous and it needs to stop but I know it never will.

*I didn't come up with all these ideas all on my own. There was discussion about the post on another social media. I just needed to vent in one place.

[la-pheacienne]

I love you r/l analysis. I just want to comment that, no matter how fleshed out rhaegar and lyanna are, they are secondary characters and dead. Their purpose for is already finished and fulfilled. They fell in love, their love caused a war (not their fault, martin already stated that robert had such and ego that he needed to avenge himself in rhaegar not because he liked Lya, but because he saw her as his POSESION), the conflict caused the current time line (by proxu, the current conflict) Not only that, jon was born from them. rhaegar and lyanna are directly related to dany, jon and arya, three of the key five. their purpose is to be parallels to them. their purpose was to create jon. to add for conflict to jon, a bastard who thinks his mother didn't love him and that he wished to die like his father, with a sword in had. They have a purpose and they did it. No matter how much i love them, my literature student brain knows what they are when i analyse the story and the characters, lmao, but a lot of people in this fandom can't, and they take my like for them as a personal offense when i just like tragic and doomed romance.

Thank you!!

I agree with everything you said! Of course Rhaegar and Lyanna are secondary characters that are meant to pave the way for Jon and Dany (and Arya), I said that too in my meta. I just find it cool that they haunt the storyline so much when we know so little about them, but they are by no means more important than the key players. They are just a great background story and they have a clear purpose in the story, as you said. The song of ice and fire essentially began with them.

Lol any person that considers you liking them a personal offense needs to touch some grass.

[redotter]

Thought on ASOIAF and GOT

Some background: I own the books since 2014 but I didn't care much for them when I first gave them a try so I stopped after a couple chapters. Then the show was a massive hit, yet I remained uninterested and rather annoyed at how popular it was. But then I watched some tiktoks with best scenes and it really sparked my curiosity so I picked up the books again last year and it was a much more enjoyable read - for once I already knew the characters and the main plot beats from social osmosis so it felt like a reread (I mean this in the best way possible; I could actually focus on the details and make little head-cannons and theories instead of trying to keep up with all the names).

Long story short, sometimes things that are popular... are good. I love the books! GRRM is a good writer and all the negative reviews I've heard about them are not founded imo. For example, while the world is sexist, the narrative is not sexist at all. It has some really well written, strong and complex female characters, and that was in the 90s (I know, the bar is low but I'm giving credit where credit is due)! Now that I'm currently reading the forth book, I decided to also watch the show instead of piecing it together from gifs and... I'm mildly disappointed? Don't get me wrong, it's still a very good show so far, and it must have been mindblowing back when it was still running, I'm just less invested in it that in the books. And I wanna rant about it :^)

Aging up the characters

I entirely understand why this choice had to be made from a myriad of practical and ethical reasons. But it seems like they aged the characters, then kept a couple details from the books that work the way they work because of the age. For example, a lot of Sansa's lines and behavior are written for a preteen girl (her getting her period for the first time, her not understanding Margaery... just generally being naive and child-like). Then there's Jon being a virgin while looking like an attractive dude in his 20s (how could that even happen?). Or the tragedy of Robb fighting a war while so young (at least they changed the wife story, because an adult Stark would never fuck a woman while his odds of winning the war depend on him specifically not doing that). Or the horrible situation Dani is in at such a heartbreakingly young age, stuck between her brother and Drogo. Or Arya being confused for a boy while looking like a woman. All of these characters are also very idealistic and ambitious and have that teenage-y The Power of Believing in Yourself. They all make some extreme choices that a more seasoned adult would be way more cautious with.

2. The sex

Again, I get why it's there (it sells), but the show somehow has more sex scenes that the books? Or is it just me? There's also this weird focus on Renly being gay, which in the books is very subtle. The show also has some sexual violence scenes not present in the books, whose purpose I didn't fully get. Meanwhile, Daenerys goes "all men must die but we are not men *smirk*" as if the creators gave themselves a feminist pat on the back in-between nude scene #30 and a rape scenes #12. I've heard that it gets worse too.

3. The actors

I love all of them, but I feel like some characters are so beloved because of the charisma of the person portraying them. I hated Drogo's guts until he died, same with the Hound. Can't believe they have such a fanbase. Even Daenerys, I like her as a character but her POVs are some of my least favorite. On the other hand, Sansa comes of as more sympathetic in the book, mostly due to the age thing I mentioned. I love Jaime and Brienne just as much in both and I care for Bran just as little in both.

4. The pacing

I have brain rot from fast media consumption, FINE, but some of the scenes move so sloooow. If you put together all of John's POVs, I bet half of it is snow scenery.

5. The setting

Why is everything beyond the wall a dessert? The book has woods, fauna and flora well into the north. Every time I see them march through Antarctica I can't help but wonder what do all of those people EAT. I know that humans can live in harsh conditions, but there's also no fishing options so???

There's some other smaller things (like Stannis being into the Red Woman for some reason) but there's no main category for it. Overall I'll continue watching it cause I'm curious how it will get worse (I already know that it does). And hey, if you've only watched (some of) the show and didn't like it, you might enjoy the books.

[esther-dot]

Assuming boatsex doesn't happen, and that Jon meets the Dragon Queen after he meets and falls in love with Sansa again post-resurrection, doesn't it make sense that Sansa would be around, forced to watch this relationship unfold? Maybe even agreeing with Jon that it's the only political move they can make to ensure the North's survival. Jon has had to put himself in this position before, and Sansa has enough of her own experiences to believe that sometimes enduring the interest of a predator is the only way to survive.

I could see a situation where Jon and Sansa are in love, but it's unspoken. (Because they still believe themselves to be siblings.) D/any takes over, takes a liking to Jon, and decides he's going to become her lover or her three flying weapons of mass destruction might suddenly slip her control. I personally would love a situation where Jonsa talk about what's happening and endure it together. It would be a great way for them to bond, and Sansa could help Jon play the game more successfully than he has done up to now.

Let's face it, he didn't talk Ygritte into much and everyone around them was suspicious of him. Sansa, by contrast, was only suspected by people who were irrational already - like Lysa - or after she was carefully framed for a crime. (It wasn't until the Tyrells killed Joffrey that Tyrion and King's Landing turned on her.) Jon needs Sansa's social graces and the lessons she's learned since they parted.

And I think one of those lessons could be this recipe for moon tea. It's possible Sansa might have to brew moon tea for herself, but it's hard to see her doing so, especially when she has Lysa's example to look at and knows it could damage her future fertility. But could she give it to D/any instead? It would be an interesting way for her story to come full circle. Sansa, who was falsely accused of poisoning Joffrey and became a wanted woman for it, would actually commit the crime of poisoning a monarch this time, but get away with it. D/any would attribute the pregnancy loss to the prophecy, and it would probably drive her to a worse mental state. Especially if it prompted conversations about an heir among her advisors, and she's just killed Aegon. And then the Jon parentage reveal occurs, to make everything worse.

I know a lot of people may not like the idea that Sansa might induce a non-consensual abortion in another woman. But ASOIAF is a morally gray series, and so far, almost all the Starks except Sansa have committed some deeply tabboo or morally questionable act. Even sweet little Bran has eaten human flesh in warg form and warged into Hodor. Arya I don't need to explain. Jon still has the baby swap on his conscience. Sansa so far hasn't made any similar choices. She's kept quiet about horrors she witnessed, but has yet to knowingly do something wrong - something she could walk away from - in the same way as the others. Controversial, I know, but I would like to see Sansa make a choice that dark of her own.

(about this ask)

I wouldn't necessarily mind a jonsa romance that circumstances prevented them from every being able to act on. That could be very compelling, and if Dany were interested in Jon (which I think she very well might be, cuz of that dragon rider/a man she can trust line), it could make sense for Sansa to urge for peace via a political alliance/marriage rather than going to war. Particularly as, Dany's dragons are an overwhelming force, and I actually don't think Martin would celebrate having countless men die at Dany's hands/all that devastation if it was avoidable. LF is currently teaching Sansa how to work people to achieve your own ends, so I agree that there is some aspect of that which will play forward to benefit the Starks.

As for the controversial idea, Martin has indicated that many of the characters will be in a very dark place in TWOW, but I think their actions will fit with who we know them to be, even if there is an escalation, and it will fit with their endgame. A major feature, I'd argue a defining one, of Sansa's characterization is to pity others, to sympathize and want to help them, even when they mistreat her. I agree that Sansa will have some dark (for her) moments in the future, but I would assume that’s more along the lines of lulling LF into a false sense of security before having him killed. Because he’s evil, we won’t mind, but for Sansa, to play him / arrange his death would be a step down a path she’s not taken thus far. We have a prophecy that indicates she will be responsible for his death too. It’s not just that that’s a preferable path for her, it’s a promised one. I imagine that, not something with Dany, is where we’ll see something a little darker creep in.

Also, I am not at all sure that Dany will be pregnant again? It seems important that she is mother of dragons in contrast to mother of people (talked about this some here), so I’m doubtful.

[creative-girl]

This post will contain spoilers to A Clash of Kings!!

I kind of knew that Esred was Asha and when Theon was.... being Theon I felt second hand embarrassment lol. I hid my face in my hands. I felt bad for Theon coming back home after 10 years and realising nothing is the same anymore and no loves you there.

As readers we understand how high the stakes are for the Night's Watch. The others might have trouble believing that dead are coming back to life. I love the court scenes and the small council scenes. I didn't expected Cersei to be as giddy as she was when she heard that Renly and Stannis will be warring each other. Tyrion poisoning Cersei took me by surprise even though he did take the poison from Pycelle. I also liked the confrontation of Pycelle. I hate Pycelle so much.

I forgot that they go to Harrenhal first then they get picked up by BWB. I dont remember much of the show after this point thankfully. I know she becomes a cupbearer for Tywin Lannister. I am so excited to read further.

I am worried for Dany, she is being to naive telling the sailor of her plans to take the Iron Throne back.

I like Meera and Jojen. I feel so bad for Lady Hornwood, she just lost her son and husband and now is kidnapped by a sadist. I hate Ramsey with a passion.

Arya's life in Harrenhal is sad but also interesting.

Catelyn seems well versed in history. First we learned of Harrenhal from her chapters then of Storm's End. I really liked the exchange during the parley. I feel bad for Catelyn she wants peace, she wants her daughters and she wants to go home to her dying father and sons. Catelyn was right Cersei did laugh her breathless laughter when she heard Stannis had gone to Renly.

I feel so bad for Sansa and I hate Joffrey so much. That scene in the court room was so painful to read.

Catelyn's chapter are so sad to read. You can feel her grief and depression through the pages. Renly's death was so intense the moment he is dead the Lords burst in and accuse Brienne and attack her and Catelyn screaming it wasn't her but it's late and everything is chaotic, I love chaos. I feel bad for Brienne she loved him.

I really love the bond Ghost and Jon have. The scene where Ghost led Jon to the grave was intense, I was so on edge I was scared something was going to jump and attack. But I was still surprised when they found that grave. I wonder what it's about.

I don't think I can dislike the Walders more than I do now. They didn't even pretend to grieve their uncle. I also hate Ramsey Bolton, I was so sad to hear the way Lady Hornwood died and the description was horrifying.

[buttercuparry]

This post is inspired by @fromtheseventhhell's post

If Sansa isn't just seeing what she wants to see, but following LF because she has no alternative ( I mean fair...what's a girl to do? She needs roof over her head at least), then it means she knows now what sweetsleep does.

Father and I have larger concerns.

This was said by her when she was thinking of how what's best for Robert the boy is not always good for the Lord Arryn of Vale. And it might be argued that since Sansa hadn't known about the plan it was simply stated with the view of state matters. However were Arya or Dany in her place, and they chose as she has chosen, this alone would have been enough to vilify them. Interestingly enough Sansa's choice to overlook her cousin's health in favour of political matters is shrugged off. I am not trying to give an opinion about Sansa's choice of actions here (for I have none), I am merely stating what I found in the text.

Now what about what happens after? In the sample chapter of Twow, we see her not mulling one bit on the fact what seducing Harry leads to. Harry the Heir becomes more than just an upjumped knight only when the condition of his being the heir is fulfilled. And it can only be fulfilled through Robert's death.

I know that we can't judge without reading the whole of twow and this is why I usually do not take part in the conjecture of Sansa poisoning Robert. But what sticks out as a sore thumb is when Sansa is said to be this masterful little politician in making. More intelligent and more artful than the teenage politicians who have actually proven their worth. She is also said to be the most innocent and kindliest of them all, having clean hands and no blood on them. Not so innocent now is she?

I mean even if we are to interpret that she is being forced to do this because she has to keep LF in her favour, it should ( at least to those who are so eager to criticize Dany for forgetting the name of the girl who was burnt to death by her dragons) ring alarm bells about how Sansa spares not one thought to the plot in the Twow sample chapter. I mean we see her thinking that Robert is a fool for wanting to marry her and claiming to love her; we see her happily jaunting around with Myranda Royce, being quite proud of the tourney she has helped arrange, hoping that Harry the Heir would come to at least like her, being over the moon that her "father" should raid the whole of Vale for lemons just so she can have the spectacle of an impressive lemoncake. Not once in this chapter we see her thinking about sweetsleep being forced to run through Robert's blood or the ominous wording of not "if" Robert dies but "when" he dies. It is true that nothing can be said for sure from only one chapter of a yet to be released book but for now this is all we have.

Now if we are to say that Sansa truly doesn't realize what she is being made to do, then we have to say that she is once again seeing what she wants to see. I find these lines odd:

He does have pretty hair. If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. That much she will love about him.

A consideration of a future where Lord Arryn has a wife brings the possibility of an heir from Robert's own line. Harry the Heir would then be pushed back further down the line of inheritance and possibly then all the gifts that LF promised Sansa then would only be that: empty promises. So Sansa considering a future where Robert lives long enough to wed means that she isn't seeing what LF plans to do. Even when LF has conspired right in front of her. It cannot be anything but a deliberate coping mechanism then. Which again begs the question about all those bloggers who dismiss Arya's own experience of being bullied as her being an unreliable narrator and throws stalk into everything Sansa says...how come they never discuss this?

The political genius in the making gives no extra thought to the overheard conversation where LF is deliberately causing a scarcity of food while simultaneously throwing a feast fit for a king. If this girl truly were to trump both Jon and Dany, shouldn't there have been idk some thought given to this?

I am not saying that Sansa is stupid. She has potential and I am truly impressed how she reeled in Harry the Heir. But the way her stans talk about, especially when they disgrace so many other characters to prove how much better Sansa is than them, where every little thing that Dany does is considered to be a symptom of madness, while Sansa's own involvement in a possible murder is dismissed as her being naive, while simultaneously where Jon is bashed for his stupidity while Sansa's continuous lack of political awareness of the lives of the mass is not even deemed to being an important topic of discussion...it feels a certain kind of way. There is also the continuous insistence that Arya is an unreliable narrator even though the readers face the most confusion while reading Sansa's chapters.

Sansa cannot be the child prodigy of political matters and the naive dove with a dangerous coping mechanism in the same breathe. The only other explanation can be what has been pushed onto Arya for so long. That is, Sansa doesn't care one whit for Winterfell. She truly cannot perceive Robert Arryn being murdered. She wants Harry as someone with whom she can build a life with and cares not for his supposed inheritance. She cares not for her own claim on her house's ancient seat and would eventually live her life away from it. But I am sure even this wouldn't be satisfying to them.

[atopvisenyashill]

[just black list the tag #rani liveblogs got if u don’t want to see me bitch]

changes from book to show i noticed

what do you think it says thematically that they change the execution ned is carrying out from gared to will. do you think it was just cheaper to hire one guy to be both the “point of view” for our intro to the others and to also be the person executed.

i KNOW what it says thematically that they end this open with a scary shocking gared gets beheaded by the white walker scene and completely cut waymar royce’s “dance with me then” last stand and it’s nothing very good.

i don’t know that i like that they gave the “what about you” “i’m not a stark” exchange to bran and jon instead of ned and jon. i feel like it hits more when it’s jon denying his own starkness to ned’s face and bran sitting there realizing what a big thing jon has done here. but maybe i’m being picky here.

i do love this jaime & cersei scene. establishes the incest early, that they aren’t the ones who killed jon arryn, and also nikolaj’s danish accent comes through sooooo bad but i like it let him do it and give no explanation it’s sexy.

the tyrion change sure is. very typical of d&d.

i understand why it’s easier to just have jon snow outside and if they had a stronger jon snow i think i’d find this change less annoying but jon snow getting drunk at the party and crying is like 80% of the reason i love him so much. whomst among us.

these people are cowards prudes and fake perverts for changing this to fully clothed cuddling from those horn dogs .25 seconds after they came. i don’t give a shit about those three dehydrated twenty year olds in the shaving scene, also jon snow is my son i do Not want to fuck him stop trying to make me want to fuck him and give me sweaty and naked sean bean and michelle fairley having political pillow talk dammit.

making that change from catelyn wanting ned to go and ned not wanting to into catelyn fighting with luwin for ned to stay and ned not saying anything. perfect combo of “man is always right” + “completely erasing cat’s canon personality” + “misunderstanding ned’s core trait of grief due to long term depression & ptsd as ned is an honorable fool” nonsense. also let sean bean be naked?? michelle is not even like old???

i do understand why george was annoyed at the wedding night change, he’s writing something much more subtle than this, buti do think that’s a sign that they are not writing as subtle as him in regard to like. literally everything but especially dany and especially her relationships.

general comments and bitching

the archery scene is so fucking good tho. the way bran just LAUNCHES himself over that barrel to go slap arya silly but he can’t catch her she’s gone she’s in the wind and jon rickon and robb are hooting and hollering. really great.

do you know how many people i know who thought that jon snow and catelyn were fuckin bc of the glare they added there. akskdkd.

i wish they’d differentiated between jeyne poole and beth cassel in this scene with some dialogue and arya hears the training outside eventually drown out their voices instead of complete silence. those girls were not just like, the Main socialization that arya & sansa get, they’re both important to the northern plot with jeyne poole being like foundational to both of their stories. but obviously we know where that one goes.

i always think of that “when he looks at MEEEEEE and i look at HIIIIIIM” post during the direwolf puppy scene

“but he’s coming right now! down our road!”

i really like that arya is so mean to bran because he’s In Her Spot bc she’s next oldest so SHE goes next and HE goes next to the baby.

the way mark addy does that out of breath huffy “CAAAAAAAAAAAT” and hugs her is so funny to me i love every acting decision that man ever made.

honestly they really set emilia up by having most of her scenes be with harry lloyd when she can barely match kit harington and the daarios.

kit harington is always so much worse in this season than i ever remember. but that’s okay because lena headey, mark addy, and sean bean are also sooooo much better than i remember every single time.

the feast scene is also very good. the lil deranged moment between cersei catelyn and sansa. cat’s single nod to robb and him putting on the big brother and perfect heir face immediately. jaime so clearly wanting to fuck ned and ned cannot be more turned off by how desperate jaime is. amazing.

i remember reading an article about how this white opinion writer was like was that dothraki wedding racist. can you be racist against fictional people. you definitely can right?? anyways viserys looking really worried that murder is gonna fuck up his deal before laughing is so funny.

also the suddenness of “the things i do for love” is real good. i always gasp with bran when it happens, the way they time it is really good.

god i hope i don’t spend this much time bitching for every single episode. akskdjd. this is one of the good seasons.