#and TPTB use it to manipulate fandom

[kinardsevan]

FYI, I'm crowdfunding a retirement plan for Tim and a place for you on the 911 writers team. I'm sure you can help them sort out the rest of the plots too!

I don’t know if this is genuine or sarcastic, so I’m just going to say this:

I don’t claim to know anything about media literacy. What I do understand is intricate plot and telling a compelling story. I also understand that from the end of 806, I said almost immediately “I feel manipulated”. This has deep personal connotations for me, but the point remains, and because of those personal relations, I get an actual “ick” about feeling manipulated. Now again, I have zero clarity one way or the other as to whether the manipulation is based out of them actually fucking this storyline up or if it’s because of the way they’re trying to pitch it to us as an “exit” and “ending”. Either way, that hasn’t left me.

All I know at the end of the day is that if these people don’t understand how to recover from this decision, they don’t belong in writing television. There’s also the point that I’ve made this week, that this is not the first time TM & Co have done something like this. They’ve done it with Madney. They’ve done it with Tarlos. We’ve even seen it to some degree with Bathena. What set us all off was the interviews, which we’ve all stated from day one were …odd. The thing that stays with me though, is the fact that not once has any one of these interviews stated “Tommy Kinard is gone for good”. I’ve read dozens of exit interviews (said this too earlier this week), and the only people CALLING it an exit interview, are the interviewers. Lou said the arc was over. By the very definition of what needs to be shared and said between BuckTommy for the reconciliation, he’s right. They’ve spanned the first arc of their relationship. Further, another thing that sticks out in my mind is his statement towards how he wouldn’t turn down playing Tommy again because, to his knowledge, there’s nothing else similar to their relationship happening on television. Which is SO important for representation. I also keep thinking about his tweet “keep the hope alive”. Obviously that can be read as he just wants more work… or it can be read as, there’s more coming, don’t give up on them yet.

Above all else, it’s the crowd reaction. We know the “other team” thinks this is all to tee them up into their pairing, and here’s my response to that:

One, it’s not. Because we know that’s now what TPTB want. But two, if it is, I hope they’re prepared for the mass exodus that takes place when all the people who DON’T want that pairing stop watching. And of course, those who do but don’t get the version of it that they want because RG and OS don’t want to play it the way the fandom thinks it should.

I’m not above saying that if they made them canon, I don’t think I’d stick around. It doesn’t serve the story, it spits in the face of what RG has been trying to communicate for years about himself and Hispanic men in general, and especially on the heels of this, it would feel dirty.

Anyway, I rambled on on this far longer than I meant to. Oops!

[freefromthecocoon]

I understand your thoughts about negative person. And I kinda agree. but I don't understand why me or anyone else should be satisfied with what was done in s1 DD? They purposely baiting Daryl and Isabelle. Zabel, Norman or someone else was fine with that. and maybe you like it or are satisfied with it or you blindly don't notice it - but it's not going anywhere...It's there on the screen. and people, ordinary people, noticed it. Do you think Carol and Melissa need to be involved in this kind of story over and over again? If she's okay with it, then it only means that we've been worrying for nothing all this time. and Kang, enemy #1, did everything that our beloved EP liked. and that means one more thing...which is not so positive. that we just didn't listen to what they were trying to tell us. and we were manipulated. which lead to nothing. and it still leads to nothing and according to your thoughts we should blindly follow. and not to do work on mistakes when we were so deceived before

Hello to my new follower who followed me from a random account shortly before I got this ask. I won't name the account here but it seemed to be a fairly random account. So I will address your concerns.

"Do you think Carol and Melissa need to be involved in this kind of story over and over again? If she's okay with it, then it only means that we've been worrying for nothing all this time. and Kang, enemy #1, did everything that our beloved EP liked."

In everything I have read by people who were in attendance for the episode and in all the videos of the panel I have seen, Melissa seems completely at ease with everyone that was on the stage and hell she even posed for pictures with just she and David prior to the event.

I have included a clip from Melissa herself on the panel on Saturday.

Melissa voiced the frustrations that so many of us have felt over the years, that because of the bigger picture of TWD, it wasn't deemed important that Carol's traumas were properly addressed. David went on to say that he spent a lot of time in discussion with Melissa to make sure they advance the character of Carol and not keep her stagnant.

Gimple and Kang were in charge during all of that period. Gimple oversees the bigger universe, but thank God during the time that Season 2 filmed, he was busy with TOWL on which he was the showrunner.

Anon, I am not sure if you watched Season 1 or not. I have read accounts by people who were in attendance and watched the premiere. They all say that it sets up a parallel of Daryl's journey in Season 1. I truly hope that after all of this is over with you can sit and watch every season and see how it perfectly tells their story.

The shipbaiting was clearly there in Season 1 and no one can deny that, but no, I did not..not "blindly notice" some of the beats in Season 1 that disturbed a lot of the fandom. But I also DID notice the subtleties in the story telling of Daryl wanting to return home to Carol which were undeniable.

Everything I know about 201 from video clips I have seen that are floating around...from song choices to flashback memories, point to canon for Caryl. But if we have misread all of it and you and those who have chosen to look at the negative possibilities are correct. And we have been "deceived" as you say, just know that Melissa would be in agreement of friend-zone Caryl. If that is true she will have participated in the deception of all of us just as much as much as you all claim that Norman and the rest of TPTB have So my question to you, Anon, is that if that turns out to be the case, will all of you go after Melissa like you did Norman and TPTB or will you just admit defeat.

I don't recall suggesting that someone should blindly follow anything, but I do trust Norman and Melissa, if it turns out we were wrong about romantic canon, I will be disappointed, but I do not believe that is something we will have to worry about if I am being honest.

I hope you have a lovely day and I hope all of our Caryl wishes come to fruition.

[that-left-turn]

Caryl fans on twitter being racist against Danai and as usual the TWD fandom is silent. We have to clean up our house. We cannot have people like thebookofsilvershana and queenoftwd representing those of us who are not like this. When we allow it and we are silent we are basically saying we agree. I’m ashamed of our shipmates not doing better.

As I've said before, I'm not on twitter and I also have no idea who these people are. I have several long posts addressing racism but whenever I write anything on the topic, there's an avalanche of asks from Richonne fans telling me to shut up. (I can't speak up against something and be quiet about it at the same time.) If you're on twitter, why don't you lead the way? Start a Caryl discussion on racism over there, like I've tried to do over here.

For the record, I don't support:

racism, against Danai or anyone else.

ageism, against Melissa or anyone else.

misogyny or sexism, whether it's a real person like Angela Kang (who gets regularly tarred and feathered by fans who've misunderstood how-it-works in TV production) or a fictional character like Lori.

There's a lot of that in the fandom, women hating on other women, or not understanding that their eagerness to win an imaginary "ship war" enables TPTB to disregard the female audience's concerns and wants for the show and the ship. To them, those fans are 'rabid hysterics' who only think with their 'soft moist parts' 🙄 I know some people want to believe that TWDU is a kind place where everybody gets treated like cherished family, but the reality of it is that it's a business with a marketing ploy based on the show's concept of 'found family.'

The horror space is controlled by white men. It's hard to break into as a female writer because your love and knowledge of its tropes get constantly questioned. You're supposed to stick to 'woman centered' shows and not ruin the genre with "wokeness" and your "feminist agenda." Men need to have a safe space where they can be manly men and nobody calls their brand of masculinity 'toxic.'

TWDU fans trying to one-up each other in ship wars by praising men who write their female characters as shallow and manipulative won't turn the show into must-see TV. Pretending that billing and title don't matter, or that positioning the male character and actor as the focal point of the show doesn't cast the female lead as the sidekick won't make the show any better or give fans Caryl canon. Flattering mediocre men won't encourage them to give fans what they want. It only validates these men's POV that their take on the characters and the story is 'rich and rewarding.'

Zabel, Nicotero and Gimple are responsible for whether or not Caryl are friends, whether there's shipbait, or if viewers have to hunt for subtextual clues regarding the characters' emotional state. That's where everybody's attention should be focused, on the show itself and the people men who call the shots.

[asocial-inkblot]

Treatment of Zutara-Type Relationships These Days

(I hope it’s okay to put this in ship tags. I added some ships and or shows with ships which I believe had the below happen to them, as well as a few characters. Let me know if I mistakingly mentioned any or if I should add more, just because. No insult is intended here, these are just my personal opinions.)

Although I’m not going to suddenly change tune and pretend to now be a fan of Zutara (albeit I did once think, for a short time, that they ‘could be cute’ together and had potential), there’s still something I can’t deny: The modern treatment of these type of pairings and by extension their fandoms, from today’s entertainment industry is...well...kind of objectionable.

I won’t get into the good, bad and ugly of such hypothetical romantic relationships (fictional or otherwise), the writing for them, nor those that back them and the possible psychologies held by said people. Not today. Instead, I’ll say that—to me at least—it seems like many writers and producers currently like to tease these pairings to pull in a certain type of viewer (admittedly often girls/women, but not always) only to abruptly switch gears and, at times, even completely incinerate any chance the ship had at being successful.

It could just be a case of overused subversion, meaning we’re so used to the ‘bad/sad/flawed/passive/aggressive boy gets the good/upbeat/forgiving/passive/assertive girl’ trope and all its variants that writers are now constantly trying to keep us interested and on our toes by using this ruse of flipping things on their head. Zutara after all isn’t the first ship (and certainly not the last) to have that vibe, of course. Plus the TPTB of TV have always pulled such tactics.

However, the manner that it’s often done makes it come across like the writers get a sick sort of pleasure from doing this to the pairings/fans of them. Almost like a “pysch, we fooled you losers!” moment (sometimes even with discriminatory intent implied). And just look at how those that work on the shows [scriptwriters, actors]/authors/etc. often talk about the ships too. This, in my opinion, is hardly excusable on the part of such creative teams and is—dare I say it—them being borderline emotionally abusive to these fans. They’re toying with them and that’s something I just can’t get behind. Not to mention how this tends to contribute to the increase in the level of in-group and especially inter-group toxicity in the fandoms too.

Now of course someone’s work will always be his/hers and the person can do whatever with it that he/she pleases. Anything can happen and some of the best stories involve huge, intense relational losses that the audience can empathize with. Also, self-insertion and refusal to accept change can be and typically is dangerous, no doubt. However, blatant manipulation and dishonesty to viewers will always be just that. So although I may not love every ship (if any) of the nature previously mentioned, I can definitely sympathize with and agree to the wrongness of a viewer being conned and purposefully led on (at least some of the time) by the creators of fictional works that on some level include this type of pairing. 

This isn’t just regarding romance either when it comes to character(s) and the path they appeared to be going down eventually getting derailed, usually to the point that progress is stolen from them. It can be platonic ships or individual characters and their own stories, too. Many of us have seen this happen with our own eyes, often multiple times—by multiple creators of disparate works—to our faves, with regard to the different aspects and traits of them and the works they hail from, that we enjoy. Frankly, it’s becoming tiresome, bully-like...and expected.

(I think I’ve seen this particular topic brought up before somewhere, in a post that mainly referenced Zutara and Azula. I think that’s good because I feel this sort of thing can never be talked about enough. Nasty behavior from creators/writers toward fans is never okay, as far as I can see.) 

[chiisana-sukima]

It was narratively pertinent to bring up the relative length of Dean's time in Hell to make the audience sympathize with him breaking.

This is the heart of the matter right here imo. It's clearly the Doylist (the authors') reason for the invention of Hell Time. Tptb were afraid that three months of torture wouldn't be long enough to assure the audience would sympathize with Dean becoming a coerced perpetrator of torture.

But Lucifer wasn't trying to break Sam, he was taking all of his rage and frustration and everything else out on him. (...) So the amount of time they had was not narratively important

And this is a Watsonian (in-universe) reason that the amount of time Sam was in Hell is unimportant.

I would submit to you that in spn the Watsonian reasons for things are always an afterthought. Spn expects us to believe three ridiculously stupid, canonically-inconsistent things before breakfast every day. Everything is about either the metaphor or the Vibes.

And just like in my 'it's about patriarchy by another name' argument, I'd argue it's a mistake to assume that liberal women are the intended audience here. To the GA--and tbh still to a significant proportion of fandom too--a heroic man becoming a perpetrator of even extreme violence is less emotionally problematic and unbelievable than a heroic man becoming a victim of intimate partner violence at all, let alone being reduced to psychosis by it. Sure, you and I might still sympathize with Sam if an abusive relationship yellow wallpaper'd him in a year. But if so, we are decidedly the minority. It's a shitty thing to have to believe but it's still the absolute truth that violence in men is 'normal' in our society but vulnerability and having been victimized are not.

We can believe that he was horrifically tortured, believe him as the victim, without needing to think that his flashback actually changed the way that time worked in regards to him.

Maybe so (although, as above, I would argue that's not a safe assumption), but given inconsistent canon in which Dean says yes time dilation, Alastair says yes time dilation, Sam says what on its face is yes time dilation, and then later we see no time dilation in other episodes, why believe that Dean is the outlier? Why should we assume that only Dean is reporting accurately? What does it do for us story-wise to do the logic fix up job that way instead of a different way, such as believing for example that Dean was not reporting accurately on a literal level either, or the Dante's Inferno explanation espoused by @dyed-red, or that time is infinitely manipulable in Hell and everyone is reporting exactly accurately? That's why I specified that for me, the 'everyone is reporting more or less accurately' explanation is a policy belief rather than a logic one. Where no one explanation adequately accounts for [any phenomenon], then often the explanation that makes most sense to espouse is the one that does the best work. What work is Dean being the outlier doing versus what work is 'everyone is reporting accurately' doing?

Does the show ever actual say how long Sam’s soul was in Lucifer’s cage in relative time? Because I know they specifically said for Dean that it was like 40 years, but at no other time do any of the characters that go to Hell experience time dilation/distortion so it seems just as likely that Dean’s time was messed with to hasten him breaking to jump start the apocalypse. But I’m wondering if I’ve just forgotten a reference or if we’ve all just assumed that Sam’s time down there was longer than the year or so that his soul wasn’t in his body.

[flyingcatstiel]

Sooooo, it finally happened to me as well. Tumblr just ate my answer to anon, but well, I had a draft. Here you go nonnie!

I think most current Cas/Destiel fans are Dean/Jensen fans. Period. They beat their chests about Dean apologising to Cas and instead we got Dean forgiving Cas and yet they screamed Destiel. Now the same bunch say Cas dying and Dean saying Cas I love you after he dies is also good enough for them. When Cas has fans like this, who needs enemies. No wonder the writers and show treat Cas so badly. I personally think Misha is not in final episode - he will be shown as a memory / flashback. That's it.

Oh, there’s a lot of unpack here. Spoilers ahead!

I’ll start with the most pressing issue right now. I’m very upset about the show playing “where is Misha” game in regards to the episodes 19 & 20. I’ve seen some positive takes on it like - Cas is so IMpoRtAnttttt, that’s why they are keeping his appearance a secret! Lol no. Like we haven’t heard that one before. And usually, if the show doesn’t mention Cas, it’s because he is not there like it was with the 200th episode or s11 mid season finale. (And fans hoped that Cas is being kept as a secret then) Other take - Cas has different clothes in finale! So what? Keep those clothes a secret, post more trench coat Cas. Some folks think it is done to generate chatter on soc media, which is already happening, true, but also, it’s not a good thing? And other folks think that Cas fans are hysterical, again, because lol duh, of course Cas will be in the last episode because destiel is happening because Cas is important character!

I personally think that all this secrecy around Cas/Misha in the 15x20 is manipulative and cruel. TPTB are intentionally yanking fandom and the longer it goes, the more I’m ready agree with you that we will have very little Cas/Misha in the series finale. Maybe it is already filmed. Maybe it can be filmed with green screen and only Misha on the set. I just can’t wrap my head around the idea that the hook SPN has for the final episode of 15 seasons is the mystery of Where Is Cas. Like, what logic is there? We just killed fan favorite, unofficial third lead in 15x18 but please keep watching the show! He’s very dead! We know you loved him! Have some Mark P in exchange!!!

I mean, the only reason I would be excited to watch 15x20 if Dabb personally assures fans that yes, Cas will be back. Otherwise, why bother? It’s not a secret that a lot of fans kept watching only because of Cas. To kill Cas again and to toy with his fate, again, is just so, so low. We just went through all this emotional rigmarole afters s12 finale. And before that, s10 finale. And before that was 7x01. Cas being killed for good is not new or original. Uncertainty about the number of Cas episodes in every season is not new. To rub this again into Cas fans faces is just plain cruel. What kind of surprise element is there left? Is this how SPN show runners want to be remembered? Sigh, SPN writers are really trying to snatch the title of the worst show runners from those Game of Thrones dudes.

Other stuff under the cut.

You know, I also used to think that most of destiel metas were written by Dean fans. And metas are the tool that frames fans’s opinions and feelings, so the overall feeling, at least for me, was that destiel metas and majority of fans don’t care much about Cas. After every pivotal destiel scene there were plenty of metas that explained why and how the scene is a step towards canon destiel etc. And quite often in the haste to prove it, Cas’s feelings and motivations were ignored while Dean’s explored and justified. Just remember how destiel metas treated “beer run” scene in s11 finale. How much effort was put into dismissing Cas’s hurt feelings, how Cas fans were told to shut up because we are getting destiel soon. It took months for meta writers to admit that the scene was harmful to Cas. I don’t even want to talk about this so called apology in s15x09 and how wrong it was on how many levels. After building up destiel conflict for 3+8 eps, after Dean lashing out at Cas with passive aggressive comments during that time, we got half baked apology for wrong issues via prayer! Not even face to face. (And Dabb admitted that their issues are not fully resolved, meta writers didn’t mention that at all) So yea, I feel you. But I have also been visiting Dean stan blogs, and well, they think that most of destiel metas are written by Cas stans who don’t care about Dean’s feelings at all. Curious, isn’t it? So, now I personally think that most pro destiel metas are written with one goal only - to prove that destiel subtext exists (duh), that it is intentional and it will lead to some kind of canon acknowledgement. They cherry pick stuff that helps to prove that writers are building up destiel and ignore scenes where the same writers insert No Homo or bros only stuff. Notice how Dean and Cas patching up their relationship in 15x09 is followed by a wacky episode where Dean and Sam are super wacky? It happens all the time, after a destiely scene we get a tribute to that other ship.

Next. There always have been fans who were OK with destiel going canon if Cas (or Dean) dies. This fandom in particular loves angst and character death. I’ve my theories about it, but it’s not surprising that these sentiments are getting more popular now. Folks care about the validation of their ship, if Cas dies, who cares because suffering is what matters. I personally think that now, halfway through s15 it’s too late to make destiel canon. There’s no time left to resolve the main conflict, the trust issues. And without emotional resolution of their last conflict, what’s the point? We don’t have another season coming. 

The beauty of canon ship is that they had positive, enriching time together, even if the big ILY happens at the very end, we witnessed them getting closer. And make no mistake, SPN writers did really good job at separating Dean and Cas ever since s8. Half of the time Cas was on the show, he was away from Dean. So, when the shippers are denied actual scenes between Dean and Cas, no wonder they don’t care if Cas lives or dies.

Now look at s15 and tell me if this is something to cherish - all the time they spend apart, all small jabs Dean threw at Cas, Dean blaming Cas for Mary’s death, sending Cas to Hell with Belphagor without a second thought and then chewing him out for making a decision not to die there. And of course the crown jewel of Bobo, Dean telling Cas “Then you are dead to me!”. That’s the stuff soulmates are made of, I’m telling you. /sarcasm/

[ghcstvalleychief]

“This is what MA want” “Stop fighting!” “Respect their wishes!” I do not understand this fandom. I do not.

Mile is a new actor. Apo was gone for a while. This is the peak, the rising fame. It’s quite literally the time to have the spotlight? Roles? Etc, etc, etc. Also…in any industry…it’s very hard to say no to someone in charge and as everyone has said, MA seem to be selfless and great so I am not surprised MA “agreed” to having decreased screen-time. (My question is. To be honest: was it agreement? We might never know but if people can say this is their wishes, how do they honestly know that this is their wish?) It feels absolutely fair to point out the implications, manipulation,,,etc. on the other side of it. The way people do not even considered the implications of any of it lol. Because it IS there.

I don’t know if I am wording this articulative enough but my overall point as everyone has said, it doesn’t make sense. None of it does. This is their time and just..tbh..it’s absolutely fair of MA fans to point out the disparity; the implications; and to question the decisions. If people can say “respect” their decision then it’s certainly fair to question the implications (with BOC…Pond….etc.)

This fandom lacks a backbone if you ask me. Sorry not sorry for saying it.

I've been in a number of fandoms where Black American actresses have experienced some of the worse racism and bigotry in the world at the hands of both the fandom and the executive producers of said shows. You know what the fans of those Black women did once we realized they couldn't speak out due to contracts and other legal bullshit? We went to war for those women. We trended, we spoke out, and we made our voices be heard because we knew they couldn't. They heard us and they appreciated their fans for doing what they couldn't. We even forced the TPTB to do things they weren't previously before because we made such a fuss on social media. Things weren't magically fixed but it did change some things.

Contrary to popular belief, saying no to your boss could land you in hot water. It shouldn't but it's a very harsh reality of the real world. It's why Candice Patton waited until The Flash has all but ended to finally speak out about the racism she experienced while being Iris West Allen. Black American actresses would get blackballed and blacklisted if they dared to say anything and their fans understood that, so we did it for them because we knew we had the power to make or break these shows.

This fandom is too young, too immature, and too naive to do something like that though. More mature MA fans are trying their best but the rest of the fandom is too unaware of the effects of silence. Nothing changes if you don't complain. You have to make some noise and speak up if you want something to change. Staying silent does nothing. Sure, Mile and Apo could be fine with this. Maybe. It's like you said - how do we know? It's the job of the fans to right that wrong because the actors most likely can't. You have no power when there's contracts involved, and that's true everywhere. Even in places that proclaim to be so progressive and forward thinking. Actors have less power than you think. Especially actors who are just starting their careers and who have no real connections in the industry yet. Which is true for both of them, despite the fallacy that they have more clout and power than they truly do. They don't have the power to disagree with something and not be blacklisted for it. Not yet.

[my-mt-heart]

Caryl fandom PSA: let’s all prepare for the trailer. We know tptb like to stir up drama, and we know how trailers while exciting can be manipulative as hell. Prepare to see snippets that might make us uncomfortable. I’m preparing myself to see shots of Daryl and Leah together, of Daryl and Connie reuniting, of carol and z scenes. And I’m keeping my expectations of there being minimal caryl. We can still be excited for it but let’s remember what these trailers are for, sparking convos/noise.

Yeah, case in point the Michonne and Ezekiel kiss which was a huge red herring. Trailers always tease, often in a misleading way, without spoiling any endpoints. Connie reuniting with TF is an endpoint, so I don’t think we’ll be seeing that. Connie with Virgil is fair game. Leah is fair game. Ezekiel is at the commonwealth, so shots of him will probably focus on that. Caryl is tricky to predict because on one hand, that’s a major selling point, but on the other, Caryl are starting off a little icy with each other and showing anything contrary to that would be too spoilery. So, we’ll see.

[imyourplusone]

Why do some take to rederina like white on rice and these or Lizzington or were Lizzington I understand they are angry! But calling James a sick pervert amongst other shit because of something that has not actually been proven seriously! What do you think?

I have no idea why some have taken it as 1000% for certain they’re going with Redarina. I saw nothing new in their editing choices that are many times problematic and illustrate everything that is wrong with the John’s narrative. If that was truly Liz’s life flashing before her eyes then she thinks of Rapey Tom and Ressler before Agnes. Not cool. And of course they’re going to frame Red as parental they fell down that black hole in S4 so what exactly was new here.

Everything they tell us is a lie. Everything is a twist, a fake, smoke and mirrors. We’ve wasted two seasons on Katarina WHO WAS A FAKE and Liz lost her life because of it. But sure Redarina was revealed? Really? We sure about that? The only thing that has ever held up is Red not being biodad. Why? BECAUSE HE WAS NEVER WRITTEN TO BE THE PARENT. So back in s1 he answered the question and it held up. Back when Red doesn’t lie to Liz was the golden rule. And I understand those rules have changed and tptb warped their endgame and mythology and went with the imposter and KR spy route. They are liars and manipulators and THE WORST storytellers but even with all that I’m not acknowledging Redarina.

This fandom is batshit myself included at times but anyone spewing hate at James needs to check themselves and get their shit straight. Let’s all give credit where credit is due. This stinking pile of garbage belongs to JB/JE and company. Spader may be an EP but this isn’t his brainchild. He tries to keep Reddington on track and does nice things for us like keeping Dembe and Paula. He also closely collaborated with Knauf on Cape May which is some of the best television I’ve ever seen and news flash Red may have been talking to himself the whole time but I don’t believe he was talking to HIMSELF the whole time ffs. Can we all calm down

So hey it’s decision time. Either come back in the fall or walk away but leave Spader alone. He’s too good for this world much less this fucking disaster of a show where he carries every damn performance. Anyone who doesn’t like that can unfollow or block me have a good life and cheers

[greymattermaelstrom]

What she said

This has been a difficult post to prepare. After much thought, I wish to share some very interesting information. Some know from my recent post, I went to Ozlander in Melbourne, Australia on March 14 & 15, 2020, and I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Richard and Sophie. As a premium ticket holder, I enjoyed lunch with them on both days. They would individually spend 5 minutes or so at each table and rotate through the tables to meet the fans. At the event introduction on Day One, we were asked to respect Richard and Sophie by not asking questions of a personal nature, which naturally, everyone understood. Therefore, I wasn’t going to ask anything about Sam, Cait, or even Tony. So, I was more than surprised when Sophie briefly mentioned Cait’s wedding!

  Sophie visited our table and we talked about a number of things. It was Sophie’s first trip to Australia; Caitriona had been here and had told Sophie how nice it was. Someone asked Sophie, 'You went to Caitriona’s wedding, didn’t you?'

  'Yeah, Caitriona’s husband is a lovely guy.' (Did she just say that, I thought?)

  I asked Sophie, 'You and Sam were the only cast members that went?'

  And she replied, 'No, Tobias was there as well.' Interesting.

  Sophie then added she took the photo of Sam in the Dunhill suit (remarkable weekend).

  'The background had to be photoshopped as we couldn’t give away the location. It got onto social media and Caitriona wasn’t that pleased about it,' Sophie said a little ruefully. (Sam had posted the photo on IG. The right-side background looks very photoshopped.)

  During a photo session on Day Two, I asked Sophie, 'Did Caitriona marry Tony?' with the emphasis on the word Tony.

 'Yeah,' she said with a smile.

 'Really?' I asked.

 'Yes. Really,' Sophie said.

 Then I said, 'Well she doesn’t say his name and hasn’t released any photos so...'

 'I don’t know...,' Sophie said pleasantly enough. Wow!! Being so busy and so involved with OL for so long, I don’t think she fully appreciated how all the Tait secrecy is being perceived in the fandom.

Okay, a photo or some sort of evidence or it didn't happen. This info from Sophie was really unexpected. What sort of proof would be acceptable and not immediately suspected anyway? Nevertheless, I believe I have the evidence I need to satisfy myself. Someone else who was at the same Day One table, has confirmed to me in writing (I contacted her a week or so after the event) she heard Sophie say all this as well. I don’t think my acquaintance follows the ins and outs of the SC/Tait drama. I don’t think most of the people at Ozlander did from conversations I had and the general talk I heard. So, my witness doesn’t have a vested interest in The Narrative and, I believe, just gave a purely objective confirmation.

If I had heard Sophie say Cait married Sam, you would probably believe it, put this info in the receipt warehouse, and any evidence would be a bonus. I have been wanting truth no matter what it is. I’ll just deal with it. While it’s greatly disappointing, I do wish Cait and Sam happiness in life whomever they find it with.

I discovered OL 18 months ago and have only been active on Tumblr for 8 months. So, I am still a newb of sorts. Some might say a naïve babe in the woods with not much to lose. However, I’ve met some wonderful people on this side of the fence and I will probably lose friendships and reputation, be unfollowed and blocked, receive a lot of vitriol, be called a troll working for (fill in the blank), etc., due to this heresy. So, my info does come at a price for me. I understand I have not experienced years of surviving on this side of the fence, enduring the delusional tag and the attacks and insults from antis, NST, TPTB, Shamuso, and even some from Sam and Cait, and being thrown under the bus when convenient. I get, in principle, some shippers will close ranks and support any higher-profile shippers who don’t believe me. I anticipate this will be the response. One way to discredit information is to discredit the person presenting it, and I assume this tactic will be employed as well.

So why am I putting my head on the chopping block? Notoriety? Hardly. Well, as I said, I want intel even if it conflicts with what I hope for. I believe people can ship the way they want (within reason) and as KDS infamously said, believe what you want. I don’t wish to convince anybody, nor get into a slanging match with anyone. It would be pointless really. I feel obligated out of principle to reveal the info and not hide it no matter how controversial and inconvenient that might be. I understand some may not think it a good time in the fandom right now to deal with this but I didn’t want the info dating too much before putting it on the table. I understand and I am sorry. But is there an optimal time to hear this?

People like I, who want to know what is going on or had suspicions, and are prepared to accept this information, will welcome it. They have had enough of the mess that is happening right now in The Narrative as well. Also, I don't wish to be intimidated into keeping contrary evidence hidden just because it doesn’t suit the manifesto. And I apologise in advance to high-profile shippers who will probably be inundated with comments and asks. I accept there will be jealousy involved. Why did a newb get this intel? Believe me, I wish it didn’t happen to me; I really wish it was someone else. I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

For the record, yes, I’m Australian living in Australia. I understand some people’s problem with that. Why does so much narrative controversy emanate from this place? I don’t know. I wish I knew. We often call it the lucky country (for various reasons). Do we appear have more luck than the Irish?!

However, and unfortunately, this does not provide closure for me. I accept the Tait wedding. I do have problems with the Tait marriage, sorry to say. I don’t know why games are being played. Cait still doesn’t call her husband Tony, there were no wedding or engagement photos made public, and no confirmation from her PR team when wedding articles hit the magazines. It seems like secrecy, not privacy. Why so secret? We continue to see gaslighting, innuendo, and an intentional vagueness, to keep us all engaged it seems?! And Hawaiigate is certainly a head scratcher at best.

So, in summing up, the four things I learnt about the wedding are:

1. The wedding happened.

2. Cait married Tony.

3. Tobias was there.

4. Sam posted Sophie’s remarkable Dunhill manipulated photo on IG and Cait wasn’t too happy about it.

Most shippers won’t like my saying Tait is real and most antis won’t like my saying Sam and Cait continue to play games. But that’s ok. I knew this going in. I just think it is important for the info to be put out there. I don’t wish to appear foolish, talking about a fake wedding, now that I know Cait married Tony. I think there must be other intel such as this out there. Perhaps the time is right for others to make their intel known.

I believe the four things Sophie said about the wedding. I do not have any further intel to share, nor do I have any further theories on what is happening with Sam, Cait, or Tony that haven’t been discussed on Tumblr already. With this in mind, I’m prepared to answer every constructive and civil comment I may receive on this post, including any DMs. If you wish, please look through my blog to see what I have posted. You will find it aligns with this side's thinking. You may see some names that do not. Please consider the message, not the messenger. And please, it would be appreciated if you would do some homework before making any comment. Thank you for your time in reading this long and very difficult post. I imagine, many will take some time to process it.

[cas-apologist]

i guess i’m really in my feelings today because here’s more long-winded nonsense....

i haven’t been in a tv show/movie ship fandom in a long time. not since sterek and with that i ended up quitting teen wolf in annoyance during the break between seasons 3b and 4. since then i’ve been bouncing around a few fandoms before being dragged into the pits of a bts obsession (it’s so nice down here!). so for years now i’ve been happily following a group of seven amazing artists who are genuinely thoughtful, kind, and caring men. if they make a mistake, if they end up hurting fans’ feelings by doing something disrespectful or insensitive, they apologize and learn from it. so going back into a tv show fandom where the TPTB are needlessly cruel to fans was a bit of a...cultural shock?

i had forgotten just how hurtful and insensitive the people behind a piece of media i enjoy can be. i followed teen wolf and saw the issues with queerbaiting re: sterek and bi!stiles. i saw the impact of words like bizzare, weird, and twisted had on fans. this was a show run by an openly gay man and it still treated fans of a m/m ship like shit. and then i fall back into watching supernatural and it’s all that toxicity i saw in this other fandom towards fans (who are the ones essentially keeping the show going!) x1000000. the fact that these writers, showrunners, and on many occasions actors in the show, can get away with manipulation and gaslighting fans is just....so depressing.

the main reason i’m rambling about this is because as i’ve been going through various spn blogs since i stumbled back into this fandom i saw a mention about how there’s that wide-spread notion of how asking about destiel is “disrespectful” to the actors (i believe someone said jensen said that type of statement before at a con or something, but i have no source for that). there was that same mind-set back in the TW fandom as well and it just reminds me of how carelessly cruel people are about LGBT+ people. why, exactly, are questions about a relationship between two people of the same sex disrespectful? do people not understand the implications of that mind-set? we know damn well that if people were asking jared questions about eileen or amelia or jess or freaking ruby or even rowena and sam’s relationship with them and their dynamic as characters together no one would be rushing to shut them up or trying to shield jared from those types of questions. no one would go around proclaiming that those types of questions are “disrespectful” to him. it’s only when it’s a non-het ship that people, even actors at times, start setting up ridiculous boundaries. i know sterek questions were often banned at TW cons, and i wouldn’t be surprised to hear that destiel ones were banned at SPN cons. i find it ironically sad that questions about non-het ships get banned at cons that, let’s be real, would not be going on if not for those fans of the queer ships. actors and these shows will make money off the fans of queer ships at these cons and then turn around and insult them by banning questions about the ship or worse, saying something rude or insensitive to a fan that manages to actually get up and ask a question about it. 

like guys....it is really NOT THAT HARD to give a generic answer about the topic of a non-canon queer ship that doesn’t belittle or antagonize fans of said ship. “i don’t personally see any romantic intent there and i don’t act those scenes with romantic interest nor do i play him/her as non-straight, but i love the XY dynamic and it’s always fun to shoot scenes with X! i may not see any romance undertones but if the fans like that, more power to them.” or “we writers aren’t writing XY scenes as romantic scenes but we love knowing that the fans are enjoying their dynamic! as of now we have no plans to make XY a canon relationship but never say never! it’s just not in the cards right now.” BOOM. you deny that it’s your intention to have it come off that way but you don’t insult the people who see it and enjoy it and you also give a glimmer of small hope that it could happen in the future. 

i know this is a long-ass post and probably all over the place but honestly it was just disheartening to be reminded of how easily shows will use fans of a queer ship to get ratings and attention and then turn around and tell them they’re being delusional for seeing it.

[orionsangel86]

How are y'all puzzled by the end and how TPTB, Dabb and Singer seemingly got the wrong message about fandom, when I've seen countless of Destiel shippers being "pro-ship". Advocating to treat incest, pedo*lia and best*ality the same as queer ships, and how it's totally ok. How often "meta crew" called me terf, fascist for saying it shouldn't be accepted into our queer spaces. It got Bobo to write a char for superwiki. They prob thought we're all just thirsty women who want to see two dudes b*ng

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I’m not puzzled. I know some fuckery went down. I’ve stated my opinions countless times now over the past few months over on Twitter and since coming back to Tumblr properly on my conspiracies post:

TPTB are all business, and they made a last minute business decision based on backing the Walker horse and not wanting Destiel to distract from Jared/Sam, whilst being fearful of the gAY scaring away the CisHet Male audience that they so desperately wanted to cling on to for Walker.

Singer has always been a bronly. Has always seen any queer subtext purely as homoeroticism and is definitely the kind of person who would queerbait fans to get views.

Dabb was weak. He backed down and let his script get butchered.

I don’t know what you mean by destiel shippers advocating those things? Unless you mean supporting AO3 not being censored and regulated of course? Because if you are one of these people that thinks that AO3 needs censoring then you are part of the problem. Believe me, no one in Destiel fandom that I know of is normalising incest, pedophilia or bestiality. No one thinks those things are part of queer spaces.

Some people multiship though. So long as they respect tagging systems and don’t force other people to have to see nasty stuff like what you’ve mentioned, then let people be into what they’re into. I might personally find it gross, and a bit strange, but people are always gonna wanna explore fucked up topics for all manner of reasons. We ain’t purity police here.

Also something I feel I need to be very clear on, which I haven’t mentioned before but um “meta crew”. Which meta crew would that be? There are many many meta writers in spn fandom. We are not a hive mind. Some are some of the nicest people I have ever met, some I don’t interact with much but write some really beautiful stuff and seem to be good people, but there are others who call themselves meta writers who are just bullies, who mock and harass anyone who disagrees with their opinion. Do NOT lump us all into the same boat.

Why any meta writers would call you a terf or a fascist without a good reason is beyond me. I don’t have context here do i? Could you look back over what you said and consider if it sounded terfy? Or fascist? I dunno man I don’t have a say in this, if people have called you out for something you’ve said, maybe look back over what you said and try to see it from their angle? Especially if it was transphobic.

A general rule of thumb for interacting with any fandom:

Ship and let Ship - in other words, don’t judge people on the pairings they like, even if they are problematic, so long as those pairings are well tagged and labelled so people can block as necessary.

Your kink is not my kink - Don’t kink shame people. If people wanna write really fucked up shit, that’s their right. Again, so long as it is all tagged and clearly labelled with content warnings, then there shouldn’t be a problem. It’s not on you to psychoanalyse people for their reasons for being into twisted things. Some people may genuinely be abuse survivors who are using it as a coping mechanism. You don’t know.

The Archive is a fandom holy place - it is protected. It is adored. Do not attack it or you will feel the wrath of 100 different fandoms coming at you. The archive is free from censorship, free from corporate manipulation, free from outside sources trying to mess with it. The archive belongs to US.

Just generally don’t be an asshole. Fandoms tend to attract people who are different from the general norms of society. We were the nerds and losers in school, the queer kids, the ones struggling with MHI. We all have a lot of shit and are all just trying to navigate our way through life via our passions. Don’t shit on peoples passions. You’ll come across a load of people who disagree with you, and occassionally you might be unfortunate enough to come across actual bullies. But most of the time, it won’t take much to rub someone the wrong way because everyone in these spaces tends to be at least kind of emotional, and attached to their passions. So you really do have to be polite. I can’t even tell you how many people in this fandom hate me - some to the point of obsession and slander. I’ve got a block list a mile long and continue to add people to it. There are posts out there with my name and screenshots from my SM spreading lies and hate about me, encouraging people to laugh at me and accusing me of doing things that I have never had the time or the energy to do. Shit happens. Don’t be those people, and you’re golden.

Superwiki is well known by SPN writers for being a bible of information for the show. The writers have previously confirmed that they refer to the SuperWiki when wanting quick research for their episodes. Yes, Bobo named a character after the person who runs the wiki, but I doubt Bobo is aware of how problematic that person is. The name was just in honour of someone who put a lot of work into building the wiki, hell, even I use the wiki! But I certainly don’t support any of Jules personal views. Don’t read into things like that. It never means what you think.

The thirsty women part I would have agreed with back 6 years ago. But they have adapted with us now. We are no longer Becky in season 4. We became Charlie remember? And after that we became intelligent teenagers wanted to tell an exciting story. If they thought destiel shippers were all about the hot guys banging, they certainly wouldn’t have made the love story canon, and they did that. Remember? Cas confessed his love for Dean, and it was the most beautiful, touching, heartfelt moment in the entire series. They did that. Not because they wanted us to objectify the actors, but because they knew how much that love story meant to us. Unfortunately, the network had other ideas for the actual finale. But that doesn’t take away the writers intentions up to that point. So please don’t erase what they worked for.

Ultimately I’m not sure what point you were trying to make with this ask, but this post is I suppose my very long way of saying you are wrong.

[twilight-deviant]

2 & 16

* Srry it was 12 not 16 lol

2) what is your favorite “problematic” polyship (ot3, ot4, so on)?

I have like my Top 3 OT3s and I don’t know if I can choose between them. 😆

Fisk/Vanessa/Matt from Daredevil

Nick/Adalind/Sean from Grimm (raising these kids together!)

Rumplestiltskin/Belle/Hook from OUAT 

A friend only recently brought the last one to my attention, but tbh, it’s hijacked my brain. lol

12) have you ever had to leave a fandom because of all the antis in it?

Yep.

Antis from Timeless fandom are the most toxic and horrible people it has ever been my misfortune to come across. (The good part of the fandom is good and I am still friends with many of them. ♥) I want to say... I believe... in all other fandoms I've been in, a difference of ship or moral opinion resulted in people going to their own corners and staying there. Antis in Timeless fandom, however:

harassed

stalked (particularly obsessed with me for some reason)

went around blocks to continue stalking

created alt accounts to continue harassing/stalking

doxxed people

tried to get someone fired from their job

created an account to publicly shame people

constantly attempted to vilify the "bad ship" and "bad shippers" in the eyes of TPTB

tried to have a CHARITY by the “problematic shippers” taken down

And so many more things. So many. 😐 Honestly, I could rant for hours about those dark days. It was one of the worst years of my (already not exactly blissful) life. And when fans being harassed asked for TPTB to call out the toxic behavior and say it had no place in the fandom, well... nothing. Because the showrunner by that point was big time gross about their ship right along with them. 🤮 (I’ve made my peace with it because going all in with their ship ruined the show and got it cancelled. lolol 🙃)

I stuck it out as long as I could because I'm stubborn and I knew they only wanted to make all "problematic shippers" leave the fandom so they could continue manipulating the direction of canon with a "singular fandom mind." However, an already anxious mind can only take so much. Soooooooooo yep, left the fandom and now have it blacklisted. Content from Timeless is like a lowkey trigger to me, if I'm being honest. Sad thing is it used to be my favorite show. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

AND THE “PROBLEMATIC SHIP” ISN’T EVEN THAT BAD! (I could also rant about all the ways the “good ship” is way worse with its correlations to real life abusive relationships. But I won’t.)

[flyingcatstiel]

What do you think about Jason Fischer's "the night we met" board quote? He is is straight up queerbaiting at this point cause only dean and cas are the only two romantically involved (even if its ony in fanon) that met at night( in a barn); unless they make it canon which we all know they wont.

I think that Jason is deliberately yanking destiel shippers around with his song choices and quotes of the day. He also put “Angel with a shotgun” song on his board the other day. And that song is like destiel anthem, remember this youtube video from 2012? I mean, guys, we are like sitting ducks, we are a low hanging fruit. It costs nothing for Jason to put a song or a not so ambiguous quote on his board and the fandom is chattering away on tumbr and twitter and FB and idk, IG. Jason is not sending us some super sekrit hints about the episode, he’s just generating PR buzz for the show that pays him salary. Remember when he posted a photo of three bunnies before s13 finale? Two bunnies were touching noses and the third one was alone? Fandom hoped for destiel kiss, but we got finale with Cas left behind while big boys dealt with Lucifer. So technically, Jason’s bunnies didn’t lie to us. Fans assumed, and that’s on fans, not Jason. (But also, Jason knew exactly what shippers will assume. And you know what, bros shippers were right, their bunnies touched noses)

Same goes for other crew members and spn writers. If they know that some minor detail will create excitement among shippers but will go mostly unnoticed by GA, they will do it. That’s how we get people wearing tan trenchcoats in Cas less episodes, ship models in the background and what not. Remember how Jerry Wanek explained bisexual flag colors in Naomi’s office in s8? Sunset, he said it’s sunset and no connection to bi flag at all. He was aware of fandom theory, he denied it and he had no problem to put the same colors in s15 when Dean was singing on the stage. That episode was full of bi Dean subtext but it never went into text. Because no matter how many hints and clues Wanek puts into props, he is not writing the show.

I don’t want to imply that all spn writers and crew members are malicious and yank fandom for their entertainment. It’s possible they think they are doing us a favor? Or that we are in on the joke, wink wink? So many destiel meta writers are engaging with spn writers and crew members on Twitter. TPTB are aware of fandom metas and theories. They know what destiel shippers want and that makes easy for them to manipulate us with minimal effort. We are being yanked around so the show could go on. That’s all there is to it. They are doing their job, they are not our special friends.

ps read this post by frozen delight and check the threads as well: OP thrashes the ideas of negative space and last minute destiel which are so popular in this fandom; OP also mentions that episode directed by Richard Speight which featured a lot of roosters. Remember metas about it? Yea, it was just an inside joke. 

ETA - I’ve been informed that the daily song and quote are selected by other person, not Jason. That still doesn’t change my point - we are being given stuff to talk about, we are not  being given a promise of destiel. I also think that people who are involved with the show and provide us with these “hints” have a very vague understanding of what they are playing with. 

[hazzabeeforlou]

(1)When i read stuff like that anon i realise just how much our fandom was/is influenced by the YEARS of manipulation and belittling of louis's talent and potential done by first 1dhq than even his own team/sony in general. We were literally conditioned to expect Louis to fail, to not be enough, the fact that Louis isn't as good as the others therefore isn't worthy of the same opportunities and of the same success is so unconsciouscly engrained in people's brains that they don't even realise it

The sad reality of the situation is that EVERYTHING 1dhq did is engrained in us, from the despicable racist stereotypes foisted on Zayn to the belief that Niall is happy-go-lucky to the image of Harry as a slow adorable dork. Branding works. Dismantling a capitalist machine that’s made SO much money is not only hard to do, but something that tptb do not want us to do, above all, because complexities are reduced to one liners, because we like to put people in boxes, because the ins and outs of fully rounded humans aren’t easy by-lines to sell to the masses. For whatever reason it’s because he pushed back for years and was the leader of his boys Louis’ situation fucking sucks. You’re right, it’s like the slowly boiled frog in a pot (no offense to my fave froggo Harold) they’ve chipped away at Louis for years, the tabloids, magazines, other artists, all using him for clicks and money while tromping on his very real musical ambitions. Now, I don’t pity Louis. He’s a grown man with the resources to take care of himself; and he could disappear from the public eye, he could go make art away from our gaze for the rest of his life and be richer than we’ll ever be. The fact that he puts up with the nonsensical tradition of belittling him says, to me, that he loves his fans a lot and that, you know, at the end of the day, he has incredibly tough skin. He knows his endgame, and he trusts us, and on many levels, I think he trusts his artistry. We’ve just got to keep spreading the word.

[mama-tumblz]

Personally, my standard of proof is a really lovely picture of the happy couple, brimming with love outside the church, with both sets of parents on either side. Bring it on, whilst I munch on popcorn!

Me too, Anon.  Frankly I don’t think this weekend will change things much at all.  There still is nothing but speculation that the bride yesterday was Cait.  I have messages wondering why I’m not being realistic and not upset because Cait is now married.  But People...listen!  If they want us to think she’s married then so be it, but they don’t have to put her through the torture of a real ceremony followed after Season 6 by an annulment because she finds out then that her groom is gay.  This, the WFH, was as simple as the EFH.  Drop a few innuendoey clues leading in, a little sleight of hand, and presto!  The fandom has her married off.  Next promo season might feature just a gold band, or it might be a ‘Cait is married’ version of last years’ ‘Cait is engaged’ jackhammer approach.  I don’t doubt that they’re in this together, that they are together, and the whole thing doesn’t make me angry at Cait.  There’s a big difference between the girl I’m reading about in many posts who manipulated her fandom, lied and cheated, and has no moral compass and the one I picture...sitting with her team and knowing that tptb are serious about her relationship with Sam not getting out.  Serious enough that Parnell stepped down from his penthouse office to rag on shippers about the evil of our ways.  So if it’s put to her as “Pose for these couple of papshots, drop a few IG likes, maybe have your friends post pictures from the ‘wedding.’  You don’t have to say anything or be seen.  Then slip this ring on your finger for the next two seasons and Bob’s your uncle.  She needs a new team, no doubt about that, to help her image, but just maybe she’s going with what she sees as the best possible horrible option.

I’m just home from supercamp, my horse is back with his buddies in the field, and I am out of here until tomorrow.  As far as perfect weekends to be distracted and out of the loop go, I sure can pick’em