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rise-my-angel · 4 months

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hi! i wanted to get your opinion because i admire the way you write these characters and you're so knowledgeable of the lore.

do you think robert actually loved lyanna or do you think she was just something he felt he was owed? like a prize that was taken away from him by someone else rather than her being her own person.

keep in mind i've only ever seen the show but his behaviour always struck me as obsessive rather than a man truly mourning "the love of his life."

i also don't see lyanna liking robert as 1) he was much older than her right? and 2) arya was a lot like her right? so she was a free spirit and wanted to learn and fight and not be a lady and robert doesn't strike me as someone ok with that in a wife. 3) robert's always been a whore so even if he did "love" lyanna he wouldn't be faithful regardless.

i know ned loved robert but he too saw the type of person robert was (and became after the war) and i don't see ned being truly comfortable with him being with his sister.

anyway i just have a lot of feelings about lyanna even tho i don't know much about her (i've just started the first book!) and i feel for her because girls are never allowed to just be girls. men always ruin everything with their wars and their egos and it's always the women who suffer, especially in game of thrones.

i think often of what it would be like if she lived and how horrid her future would be because of men in her life especially if she still gave birth to jon. she didn't deserve to die but maybe death was a kinder fate.

So interestingly enough, Robert in the show actually provides a lot more interesting perspective on this. Robert in the books is a lot more blatantly dislikable and unsympathetic, but the show provides us a new version of Robert that is actually as tragic as he is pathetic.

The simple fact of the matter is Robert didn't really know her. Robert liked the idea of Lyanna, but because she was gone so early before he could know her, he doesn't actually have a memory of her that is solid and concrete. He only has the memory of the idea of her, and he can only mourn that. So as the years go on, by the time we meet him, he has really nothing left but those scraps of a girl he hardly knew.

It's more explained in the books, but Lyanna did not like Robert. She didn't like he got around so much he had bastards yet was betrothed to her, she didn't like the fact that she knew he would be unfaithful, and clearly did not wish to marry him. Now Ned did try and tell her otherwise because partially yes Robert is his friend, but also because Ned knows he has no control over that marriage and would rather try to make his sister feel better and say maybe it will get better then just tell her what a miserable life shes in store for. Ned wanted to give her hope rather then give her literally nothing.

But Robert in the show is much more interesting, because he in the show, knows exactly what he's turned into. Robert in the show is smart, we see in the way he senses war coming, the way he understands what would happen should the Dothraki invade and in reterospective he was right about getting rid of the Targaryean threat early on before they slaughtered the people of Westeros. We struggle to see he's right though because both what we know about Jon and how that influences Neds responce to all this, and also his passion for his own hatred is off putting, but he's right, he's smart and he knows he is washed up from his own hand.

But Robert too, knows hes pathetic. He knows he has given himself no life to value now, so all he has is the past to cling onto. It's why he cannot give up Lyannas memory. She died before he had the chance to know her as a person and thus his memory of her loss is shrouded in the falsehoods he painted about her.

There's this scene he has with Cersei discussing her, and it's why I think Robert both does and doesn't love Lyanna, it's also one of the most emotionally honest scenes in season 1 from Robert of all people:

"You want to know the horrible truth? I can't even remember what she looked like. All I know is she was the one thing I ever wanted. Someone took her away from me, and Seven Kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind."

Robert is trapped at Lyannas loss. He has never moved on, and he still mourns her as if right in that fresh memory. But he also knows he has so little of Lyanna that he barley has her image in his head, all he has is the memory of loss. It's pathetic and he knows he's pathetic because he laments with shame to Cersei just after this that he never could've loved her in Lyannas place.

He loves the memory of Lyanna rather then her, but Robert in the show is more sympathetic about it. Him saying Seven Kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind is such a good line. He's saying being King did not fufill that loss and thus nothing at this point ever will. He's admitting being King was not a solution to trauma but he knows no other way anymore.

Now would she have been happy with Robert? No. I don't think Lyanna wanted to marry at all, or at least at that age she held no interest in marriage. She was wild and fun and passionate about her people, her brothers, her friends. She wanted to be a girl who still had time to live her passions and maybe pursue something more to her duties as a highborn girl later in life.

Now, some people think Ned would never have stepped in on Lyannas behalf with Robert, but no. Ned hid Lyannas son from Robert, which considering who the father was, that act by Ned could've been considered treason for Jons whole life. Ned does not value Roberts friendship or his loyalty to Robert over Lyanna. And some people equating how Ned handles Cersei to how he'd handle Lyanna is wrong.

Ned KNOWS Cersei is the enemy. Ned KNOWS Cersei would rather see him dead then what she's built up dismantled. Ned feels for her abuse at Roberts hands but will not step in because Cersei has given him no reason to be loyal to her more then his oldest friend.

But Ned cared more about Lyanna then Cersei and more about Lyanna then Robert.

Some people think Ned wouldn't have intervened if Lyanna suffered with Robert but thats not true. Ned hid the biggest secret Robert would've killed for, from him even beyond Roberts death. If Ned wouldn't have stepped in for Lyanna against Robert, he wouldn't have taken Lyannas son in as his own and hidden him from Robert his whole life.

Ned also DOES push back against him. Talks him out of stupid ideas, tells him off, quits being Hand of the King (which too is actually about Neds own fear about Robert learning the truth of Lyanna and Jon, its actually not about Dany at all). Ned clearly does not put Robert ahead of his family until he is given no choice but to stay and serve him. Robert all but orders him to stay in Kings Landing, which even then, Neds plan is to still send his children home even when he couldn't go with them.

I can't say for sure if Robert would've treated Lyanna the way he did Cersei, but I don't think it would be like that. He'd still be unfaithful and hostile, but he hates Cersei partially because he was forced to marry a woman soon after losing Lyanna. He resents Cersei for not being her.

If he married Lyanna I don't think he'd mistreat her the way he blatantly does Cersei but no, it wouldn't have been a happy marriage. But I don't think the degree of abuse and marital rape would have occurred the way people think it would've.

Robert and Ned both do not value Cersei's life the way they both valued Lyannas, and thus the way she'd be treated or protected would be vastly different then how both of them separately handled Cersei.

Robert in the show is more tragic then he is hateable. He didn't know Lyanna and cannot move past the trauma of how she left this world. But in the show, he knows that and he knows he's pathetic for it. Now, what would've happened if Lyanna still gave birth to Jon but lived?

Thats a harder thing to hide. I think Ned still would've done the same thing, still lie and claim Jon as his own son, but would've done everything he could to ensure Lyanna does not marry Robert so she could stay in Winterfell with her son.

The question comes down to, would Robert treat Lyanna and Jon the way he tried to do with Dany when learning she was pregnant. And I don't think I can say conclusively one way or another. Clearly Ned is terrified that the answer is yes, and thats why he quits and desperatly tries to leave the captiol with his daughters. He's terrified of this reaction not for Danys sake but because hes realizing that Roberts love for Lyanna STILL would not protect Jon. He tries to leave the captiol because hes terrified that his best friend would murder Jon if he learned the truth even now, and is living in a trauma asking himself if he'd have killed Lyanna too.

But how Robert would handle Lyanna if she lived, objectively, I do not know.

Robert would try to kill Jon, but would he really harm Lyanna? It's impossible to say. But Lyanna should've lived no matter what. Rhaegar kidnapping her and she survived childbirth, or if that scenario never happened, I fully believe Ned and his brothers would've stepped in if Lyanna was mistreated by Robert. Brandon literally rode to Kings Landing to confront Rhaegar to resuce his sister, had he lived, at the least, Brandon absolutely would've stepped in on Lyannas behalf since he has no emotional attachment to Robert. And I fail to see why Ned would put his friend over the sister he literally risked everything for.

The Starks protect each other. If Ned wasn't willing to side against Robert on his sisters behalf, he never would've hidden Jon from Robert in the first place. He protected Jon because it was his final way of protecting Lyanna.

In the books, I think theres more of an argument to say Robert would've mistreated her, but in the show? I cannot say yes or no, Robert Baratheon in the show is a completely different version of this character.

And I think show Robert is a lot more sympathetic then haters of book Robert will give him credit for. Which I can say, because I, a fan of show Robert actually fucking hate Robert in the books. Get away from Cersei you abuser, I know she's crazy and evil but hiss hiss bite bite.

But really that one line I quoted earlier tells me that he has always had a soft spot for Lyanna, and he knows that being King didn't actually help him move on. In his own way he loves Lyanna, but the way he loves her is just different then the people who are Lyannas actual blood. The same is true for Robert, Ned, and even without realizing so directly, Jon too.

Seven Kingdoms couldn't fill the hole she left behind.

#show robert is FASCINATING to me #his characterization in the books is much more black and white and unlikable #but show Robert?#You see why people loved him why they followed him #but you also see why he isnt a good King anymore and Robert himself knows it too #somewhere in there is still a man who won a rebellion #but hes buried so deep under 2 decades of trauma and coping and hate and spite that its so hard to come out #you see with Ser Barristan in that war stories scene #that he sees the tragedy in what Robert could've been in a different life and the shame that a great warrior #allowed himself to become what he is today #show Robert I actually like quite a lot he is so much more complex then book Robert ever was #and thus his relationship to Lyannas memory is much more sad and pathetic then it is obsessive and unwarrented #game of thrones #a song of ice and fire #asoiaf #robert baratheon #lyanna stark #ned stark #eddard stark

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francesderwent · 5 months

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so I heard you wanna talk religion in ttpd! let’s talk I Can Fix Him (No Really I Can).

“they shake their heads saying ‘God help her’ when I tell ‘em he’s my man.” this isn’t the outright controlling judgment of the saboteurs in But Daddy I Love Him. nobody is trying to tell her what to do or force her to break up. this is a simple admission that the situation she’s in is difficult, that she’s chosen a hard path and needs help. and what is her response? “your good Lord doesn’t need to lift a finger, I can fix him, no really I can.” she admits salvation is needed. but Taylor is casting herself as the savior. she doesn’t need any help, any grace, any divine assistance. in fact, she doubles down: “only I can”. she and she alone has the power to reform this man, because of the love between them. it’s reminiscent of False God, except now the idol isn’t their love, it’s just her. she’s going to save him.

what’s interesting to me is we don’t know how the themes of salvation would have been recapitulated in light of the reversal at the end of the song, “whoa maybe I can’t”, because the song ends there. maybe she can’t fix him because he is ultimately unfixable, irredeemable, worthless. or maybe she can’t fix him because she’s not God. and honestly, I think the song is meant to leave us wondering. she’s waking up to reality, but is the reality his smallness of soul or her power trip?

so what is the blatant Christian language in this song for? is it telling us that Christianity is evil for implanting the idea of redemption into our minds when it doesn’t really exist? or is it a hint that trying to become our own gods, even with the best of intentions, is a pathway that leads only to death?

#I think a lot of women do have resentment toward their Christian upbringing precisely because they absorbed this idea of saving a fallen man #but what we have to recognize is #Christianity does not teach that women are supposed to save men!!#Christianity teaches that we are all saved by Christ!!#and so the answer is actually to go deeper into Christianity not to flee from it #and it’s interesting to me that this song doesn’t outright contradict that!!#the song is not about the psychology of trying to fix someone #it’s about the theology of it #Taylor explicitly paints herself as Savior and not psychiatrist #she would have died for his sins!!!!!#and so we can talk all day long about the foolishness of trying to fix someone #but Taylor paints a picture of an even more hubristic foolishness #and the answer could be either ‘he wasn’t worth fixing in the first place. you shouldn’t have tried.’#OR it could be ‘you should’ve had some humility. you should’ve relied on the Lord and not your own strength’#this is me admitting I need a music tag #is it a little dickish of me to post this? yes. I am an imperfect person

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