#Silm meta

[saurongorthaur9]

"He’s literally what happens when you take the kid who’s fed up at everybody else fucking up their part of the group project and give him phenomenal cosmic power" is the best summary of Sauron's character that I have ever seen. It also explains why I relate to Sauron from the depths of my soul.

The hilarious thing about Sauron is that according to most version of the legendarium, he was originally, like, a god of planning and logistics, and he initially supported Melkor’s plans for world domination because he regarded the world’s present state of affairs as inefficient and poorly organised. He’s literally what happens when you take the kid who’s fed up at everybody else fucking up their part of the group project and give him phenomenal cosmic power.

[naruthandir]

Hold on, I'm having Elrond thoughts right now. He looked at the mistakes of his ancestors and said "Nope. Not doing that again." When he sends Aragorn on the quest to destroy the ring he doesn't do it to get rid of him, like Thingol did with Beren. He does it because he knows love is powerful and he wants him to succeed. When he builds a secret kingdom, he makes sure to make it warm and welcoming for weary travelers, instead of keeping it hidden for everyone but a few select individuals. When the fellowship gets together, he tells them to swear no oaths. He's a symbol of the reconciliation between peoples: He has blood from the Maiar and blood from the Edain, he was raised by Feanorians, he is married to a lady born from the love of a Noldo and a Sinda. He keeps a pet hobbit around his house and takes him with him when he leaves Middle Earth. His father is a wandering star that shines for all, and when people need help they go to Elrond, because they know Elrond can help. So yeah, those are the Elrond thoughts I'm having.

[inthehouseoffinwe]

Thingol, Luthien, and Dior’s claim to the silmaril bugs the living daylights outta me and I’m gonna break down why. This goes a bit beyond ownership laws.

Starting with basics. What are the silmarils? Gems created by Fëanor that hold the light of the Two Trees. Who in Beleriand saw the light of the trees and no doubt misses it like a limb? Are here in part to avenge their destruction? The Noldor.

The Sindar never went to Valinor. They might find the gems beautiful but that’s it. There’s no cultural or emotional connection to them beyond ‘pretty stone, look how awesome our princess was.’ There’s no appreciation for what they hold. No understanding that this stone is one of the *last* things that holds the ancient light of the Trees.

The Noldor meanwhile not only saw the Light, they had entire festivals surrounding it. Grew their entire culture, their lives, under and around it. Now the trees are destroyed, their king killed defending these jewels. And this last beacon of hope, a piece of the home they can never return to, a piece of light that will never come back, is being kept by people who can’t even begin to understand the significance of what they keep.

Now imagine being the sons of the one who made this jewel from a culture of people who value craft above all else.

Not only is it light, it’s the result of years of toil and experimentation of your father, the one who managed to do what no one had ever even thought of. Fëanor’s sons would have been the first to see these jewels, probably saw him make prototypes, work equations whilst they worked on their own crafts. Provided what relief they could to his ever working mind and inadvertently gave him ideas that helped solve problems he encountered along the way. Suddenly it’s not only a key part of their culture, it’s something core to their family.

Then Fëanor is killed and in many ways it’s the most important thing they have left of their father. Now it’s a source of memory too, for someone doomed to the Halls for eternity. Who they’ll likely never see again unless they’re killed.

Now from what I’ve heard, Tolkien says the Fëanorions lost their right to the Silmarils when they killed for them. Which makes no sense considering the Silmarils were *created* by Fëanor. Yes the light was created by the Valar, but what, you’re gonna say ‘I created electricity so that lightbulb you made is actually mine.’ That’s not how it works. Fëanor made the casing for the stones and figured out how to hold the light, without aid from the Valar. It doesn’t matter what actions they take, the right to the Silmarils remain theirs and theirs alone. The jewels hold no power of their own, they’re literally objects. Healing objects at most. Morals do not dictate their ownership, hallowed or not.

Tolkien going on to say the right of Doriath’s Silmaril actually goes to Beren and Luthien for taking it from Morgoth gives me frankly coloniser vibes.

‘Oh this thing I stole was originally stolen from you? Too bad. I took it so it’s mine now. Don’t care how important it is to you, your entire culture, and your people.’

Get where I’m coming from?

All in all the whole situation gives me Bad Vibes and I really don’t like the attitude the Sindar have to the Silmaril. In terms of Elwing, I can partly forgive her purely based on trauma response. Fine. Doesn’t make it right, but I understand. But that never would’ve been a problem if her father, grandmother, or great grandfather had the sense to acknowledge the silmaril was never theirs to keep. Don’t like the Fëanorions, (too bad) at least give it back to the Noldor.

[thesummerestsolstice]

Elvish art genre that definitely exists in Middle-Earth: the captivity of Elrond and Elros (mostly just Elrond, especially after Elros dies)

The paintings– done mostly, but not always, by Sindarin and anti-Feanorian Noldor artists– are usually studies in contrast– Elrond as the bright, innocent child dressed in white; often portrayed as a small, frightened elfling, frozen at the moment he was taken from Sirion. Sometimes he is shown bravely resisting the cruelty of the Feanorians, other times he mourns for Sirion, or bows and prays to the gods for deliverance. Sometimes, he's given wings, both to stress his connection with Luthien and Elwing and to make him look more angelic and pure in comparison to the fallen Feanorians.

Maedhros and Maglor are the dark monsters the oath made them, with teeth, and claws, and harsh armor. Some of the more daring artists just portray Maedhros as an actual orc. While few of the paintings actually show the Feanorians' crimes, they're often portrayed with blood on their hands or swords, or simply surrounded by fire and destruction. They often demand, or threaten in the pictures, towering over Elrond and casting long shadows on him.

There's a few different sub-genres of these paintings. The ones that explicitly compare Elrond's situation to Luthien's kidnapping by Celegorm. The ones that feature a grateful Elrond being saved from the horrible Feanorians by whoever the artist is looking to valorize– Gil-Galad, Galadriel, Oropher, Eonwe, etc. The ones that show Elrond, locked in a dark cell, staring longingly out at Gil-Estel rising in the night sky. Some of the strangest are the ones that draw connections between the Silmarils being kept in Morgoth's crown and the twins– often with Maedhros playing the role of Morgoth.

Elrond hates almost all of these paintings. He feels like they take away his ability to define his past the way he wants to– to tell his own story. Most of them are grossly inaccurate, but most people don't know that, and dredging up all those really painful memories to try and correct people's assumption is hard. Sometimes, even when he does, people won't listen. Some of the paintings also seem... weirdly gleeful about the idea that Elrond suffered because of the Feanorians? Like they're trying to martyr him even though he's alive, and doesn't want to be martyred. It all makes him really, really uncomfortable.

There is one exception. It's not a very traditional example of captivity paintings. Elrond is at the center of the frame, shown not as a small child but as a young adult. Maglor and Maedhros are mostly unseen in the background, each with a bloody hand on one of Elrond's shoulders. Unlike the other paintings, instead of looking off into the distance or staring demurely at the ground, Elrond is looking straight out at the viewer His expression is hard to place. Anger? Acceptance? Defiance? Pity? Accusation? It's a very odd picture that unsettles almost everyone that look at it.

Elrond insists on hanging it in Rivendell.

[erendur]

Speaking of Fingon, I like that Maedhros calls Fingon "Fingon the valiant" when he asks Fëanor if he is going to send the boats back to get him.

Because I can see three possible reasons for that, and I like every single one of them.

A funny one : at this point in time, what has Fingon actually done to deserve that epithet ? They're just on their way out of Valinor. Was he known as "the valiant" for his fearless rock-climbing prowesses ? His sartorial daring (first recorded Elf to have matched stripes with tartan) ? That one time he publicly told (to everybody's surprise, shock, amazement, relief) Fëanor to shut up as Fëanor and Fingolfin were having one of their customary shouting matches ?

A dark one : we know what Fingon has done to maybe deserve this epithet, at that point. He rescued his cousins' host in Alqualondë. That was valiant. If they ever called him that afterwards, that must have been a very bitter title to bear indeed.

A meta/angsty one : of course the events recorded in the Silm are not supposed to be happening in real time, but to be told, much later on, based on later records and songs and lore established in Beleriand. So the narrator calls him "Fingon the Valiant", because that is the name under which he is known in songs in ME. And that also involves that the audience intended for these songs is already supposed to know, at that point, that that Fingon that Maedhros is asking his father to go and get is the same Fingon that will eventually make his way to ME through the Ice, the one that will rescue Maedhros from his torment on Thangorodrim, the one that will chase Glaurung away, the one that will die a horrible, valiant death during the Nirnaeth.

[general-illyrin]

On Dwarves and Glass-making

A while ago, I read an article about the Lycurgus Cup, and I had some thoughts about it that I've finally gathered and organized in this meta. For background, the Lycurgus Cup is a 1,700 year-old Roman chalice that looks green when lit from the front, but looks red when lit from behind. According to the article, this is because the Romans suffused the glass "with particles of silver and gold, ground down until they were as small as 50 nanometers in diameter…The work was so precise that there was no way that the resulting effect was an accident. In fact, the exact mixture of the previous metals suggests that the Romans had perfected the use of nanoparticles…" My thought was that if the Romans could create color-changing glass like this, what are the chances that Dwarves could have done the same? Especially given the Dwarves' expertise with working with metals, it seems not unlikely that they would have the capability to create such small particles and use them in making such glass. And I could imagine it becoming a specialized product they are famous for once they begin trading with the Elves, as it seems like a product the Elves, including Caranthir would enjoy. It would be particularly notable in large quantities in a western window; appearing green in the morning, but shifting to red as the day progresses.

[serene-faerie]

The take that Thingol overreacted to the news of the First Kinslaying is honestly a really bad take. And the fact that some people actually argue that “he didn’t know the Teleri”, or “those were just his brother’s people! Why is he so mad???”, it really doesn’t sit well with me.

Like, Thingol may be a Sindarin king, but he’s still ethnically related to the Teleri! He, the Iathrim, and all of the Sindar are all ethnic descendants of the Teleri, which means that some of them probably had Telerin relatives who were killed in Alqualondë! Hell, I'm pretty sure Thingol also had Telerin friends who were slaughtered in the First Kinslaying! He had to do something for the sake of his people, or they would be angry at him for letting the Noldor off the hook!

Also, Thingol has every right to be angry about the First Kinslaying. After all, the Noldor basically slaughtered the Teleri for refusing to hand over their ships, took the ships anyways, and then they lied to him about their reasons for coming to Middle-earth, too. They literally took advantage of his hospitality while hiding such a horrible crime from him, and they're basically disrespecting his authority and trying to assert their own claim over Beleriand! No wonder he gets so upset about them lying to him!

And yet, despite everything, he doesn’t lash out. He maintains his dignity throughout this whole crisis, even though he was surely furious at being deceived by his potential allies. All things considered, Thingol handles this situation with quite a lot of grace, and he still manages to maintain an alliance with both Finrod and Fingolfin's people.

He deserves a lot of credit for this, imo.

[eloquentsisyphianturmoil]

I do think that any fan who believes Tolkien intended readers to view characters as deserving of death, instead of simply meeting death as a consequence of their actions (or that one state-sanctioned execution), is fundamentally missing the ideology conveyed in ‘Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.’

[cilil]

The more I dig into the lore around the Second Kinslaying for my current project, the more I'm fascinated by the detail that it was specifically Dior who killed Celegorm. That's one of the main details we get, we aren't even explicitly told who killed Dior, Nimloth, Curufin and Caranthir, just that they were slain.

Celegorm meets his end at the hands of the son of the woman he tried to marry, the son of the couple he fought against and I just love it when narrative threads come full circle (or parallel one another).

I know opinions differ in regards to the level of sexual or romantic interest Celegorm had in Lúthien, as well as the exact appearance of Dior, but this is why I love having him look like a male copy of his mother. I love the idea that Celegorm, in a way, sees her face one more time, but this time it's Dior's. I love the idea that the opponent he fights to the death looks like Lúthien. I love the idea that Dior's face may have been the last thing he saw.

And yes, I also love the idea that Dior may have wanted revenge for what happened to his mother.

If you then put the Silmaril aside for a moment, you can see a more private, personal conflict at the heart of this tragedy: Dior vs Celegorm, though Dior, true to his name meaning "successor", acts as a sort of stand-in for Beren, Lúthien and Thingol in Celegorm's perception.

It's just... ugh. So very fascinating and emotional and tragic.

[glorf1ndel]

I am reading The Fall of Gondolin, and in the prologue, Christopher Tolkien writes that the Noldor were "most beloved... by Aulë (the Smith) and Mandos the Wise." Which raises the question: what does Mandos, Doomsman of the Valar, really think of Fëanor and his people, the subject of his Doom? I have seen some fandom interpretations in which Mandos can't stand Fëanor, and it is entertaining to think of long-suffering Mandos' patience being tested by this one fiery Elf. I have seen other interpretations in which Mandos is quite dispassionate, which is also interesting. Yet I think the truth about Mandos and the Noldor is in what Christopher Tolkien understood from the writings of his father: he loves them. Mandos, known for being the most grim of the Valar, is singled out by Tolkien (alongside Aulë) as caring about Fëanor and his people. Why? Perhaps Mandos cherishes the Noldor for their wisdom, before Fëanor leads them in the Oath. Perhaps he is simply fascinated by these Elves, who are so different from him. But maybe the answer is more complex, because Mandos knows nearly all things that will be. What if Mandos sees the future of the Noldor, in Vairë's tapestries or in his own mind? What if he rages against that future, all the while knowing that it will not change, because that is the Vision of Ilúvatar? Mandos is well-acquainted with destiny, although he cannot see all ends. Still, the Noldor are most beloved by him, in all their good and evil and moral shades of gray. What if Mandos knows what Fëanor and his people will do, and chooses to love them anyway?

[queerofthedagger]

One thing that's just been keeping me up for a week straight is that, while we tend to associate Elrond as the one incredibly skilled in healing - rightfully so - there is also that "little" titbit of how "the hands of a King [of Gondor] are the hands of a healer," which, infamously, is the line of Elrond's brother.

Which leaves just enough room to speculate that they may have both had a talent in healing, and in turn begs the question of just which part of their ancestry they got it from.

And the options there are all wild in their own right - on the one hand, there is Elwing's side which would make some sense due to Lúthien/Melian, but then in at least one version of the tale at the end of the Fall of Gondolin, it's said that Elwing and her people believed that the 'power of healing in their camp' came from the Silmaril if I remember correctly. Which implies that it's not a skill their line has been known to have an extraordinary talent in.

The alternative option is, of course, Eärendil. Now that means it comes either from Tuor, or it means Idril, which means through Turgon/the House of Fingolfin. And if I think about that too much I might just go insane because oh man the implications.

But also all the ancestral musings aside, just the idea that the line of Gondor's Kings is carrying forth Elros' own talent in healing as this permanent relic, reminder, and tangible leftover for Elrond, of something they shared and learned together? just. man

[eilinelsghost]

I was rereading bits of the Lay of Leithian over breakfast (like you do) and today it stood out that when Finrod is at his best in the battle with Sauron, it's when he brings in the dual visions of home: the home he has built in exile and the home of memory in Valinor:

The chanting swelled, Felagund fought, And all the magic and might he brought of Elvenesse into his words. Softly in the gloom they heard the birds Singing afar in Nargothrond, The sighing of the Sea beyond, Beyond the western world, on sand, On sand of pearls in Elvenland.

The Silmarillion: Chapter 19 "Of Beren and Lúthien" (emphasis mine)

But! While one of these is what we expect - Nargothrond, the home built of his longing and vision - the home in memory is not Tirion. It's Alqualondë, with its sand of pearls beside the sighing Sea.

In Finrod's moment of greatest trial, caught in a battle he knows he can never win, he sings a vision not of Tirion and its dynastic power, but of Alqualondë where Finarfin fled for peace and where presumably his son found the same.

Faced with a conflict of power, he reaches for peace.

And by doing this, he turns his immediate defeat into something hollow - while Sauron is said to have mastery here in their duel, it is Finrod who ultimately triumphs. For in the Leithian, the Release from Bondage, victory is achieved through sacrifice and not through power: Huan's sacrifice of loyalty and life, Beren's sacrifice of his body (Erchamion) and his life as well, and the overarching sacrifice of Lúthien's own life and fate, which both serves as their own personal triumph and lays the foundations for the victory and redemption of the Three Kindreds at the end of the Age. And Finrod's sacrifice is key among these - laying down his power, his authority, and his life both for Beren individually and also for the Edain as a whole.

Sauron's power may dominate and subjugate, but it is through Finrod's peace that hope grows to fruition and gil estel rises.

[crownedwithstars]

Hot Takes and Conspiracy Theories About the Silm by Fourth Age Gondorians

(this post stemmed from the idea of the Silm as a part of some very ancient manuscripts Tolkien was just translating, and how it may compare to real world epics like Edda - stories that may have started as poems and songs written down centuries after the fact in a completely different mode and by someone with very different cultural background than the original context of the poems and possibly with motives about promoting himself or his ancestors. so what if this was how Fourth Age Gondorians regarded the Silm as well and had schools of thought and self-taught enthusiasts debating what the stories actually mean? what kind of takes would they come up with?)

The Two Trees

Valinor did not have some special light-emanating trees and they did not actually die, it's just a nature myth that metaphorically talks about a period when the sky literally darkened; this was caused by some unknown natural disaster (like the explosion of a supervolcano).

references to Tree-light and Elves being enhanced by it is just Noldorin propaganda. 

The Silmarils were not real. At least not as they are portrayed in the Silm. 

there are various theories as to what they really were (religious artifacts? some mandate of rulership? just really pretty jewels and everybody exaggerated how special they were? some kind of a super weapon?), but also more philosophical suggestions that the Silmarils are the elements of air, water and earth itself (hint hint that's why they eventually become part of these), and the struggle over them represents the struggle over rulership of Beleriand/Middle-earth. that in the end the Silmarils aren't really possessed by anyone reflects how all kingdoms eventually fall and nobody under Eru can be a master of the world. 

Fëanor was not a real guy and the sons of Fëanor were not actually related to one another.

like who even is that great and perfect?

he's probably just some kind of a bogeyman made up by the Sindar

did anyone in Beleriand ever even see him? CONVENIENT that he spontaneously combusted almost immediately after he came to Beleriand

also who names their kid "the spirit of fire"??? what if it's not a personal name of any elf but more like a title? or a name associated with some entity that had religious following in Valinor?

there's a clue to this in how Fëanor's supposed sons are mostly referred to as "the sons of Fëanor" or "Fëanorians": it bears thinking that they were not actually related to one another, but "Fëanorian" was a title in a same way that "Fëanor" was a title. It doesn't mean an ACTUAL son to a guy named Fëanor but a devotee to whatever the entity or title named Fëanor represented. 

(they couldn't be real brothers because there just can't be that many hair colours in one family.)

MAYBE FËANORIANS WERE SOME KIND OF A CULT

it was probably some kind of a death cult obsessed with blood and murder, considering their body count 

also because of this they were kicked out of Valinor and all stories about how they WANTED to leave are propaganda. 

Celeborn was at least three or four different guys.

How else do you explain the different versions about who he was?

the one who fathered Celebrían was Galadriel's real true love, but he died in obscure circumstances

this theory you don't really want to talk about much, because you don't want to insult Queen Arwen. Also the current Celeborn may come after you. 

Beren did not actually die and come back

his first death is a symbolic one: he had been estranged from his relatives and people, but by marrying Lúthien he completely leaves behind that life and "dies" as a member of the House of Bëor to become a part of the House of Elwe

he did not come again among Men after marrying Lúthien, in other words he was dead to his original society

the sequence in Mandos where Lúthien pleads for pity was originally a description of a courting scene that got bastardised along the way; she had to go to the remaining members of the House of Bëor and ask for Beren's hand in marriage. They would not agree unless Beren gave up his claim to the title of chieftain, i. e. he has symbolically died. 

Melian was actually Ungoliant

that's why Doriath lasted so long, Morgoth was still scared shitless of her and didn't dare go anywhere near her

Nan Dunghortheb was literally her backyard!!!

why else Lúthien would be able to weave weird dream cloaks???

Húan wasn't a dog, he was an Elf

the idea that he was a dog came from: 

he was the best tracker in Aman, so in Beleriand he was called "The Hound of Valinor". Later generations thought this literally meant he was a dog.  

whoever wrote down the legends about him was a wishful idiot who loved dogs and wanted them to be able to talk (understandable)

Something Weird Was Going On With Maeglin

aside from the obvious, of course

were Aredhel and Eöl really his parents though? was Aredhel even married to Eöl? 

maybe Maeglin was a thrall of Morgoth, or was born in captivity and brainwashed to be loyal, and his task from the beginning was to bring Gondolin down

Aredhel did leave Gondolin like the Silm says, but stuff did not go down like the story tells. 

-during her wanderings, Aredhel somehow found Maeglin and saw him as her shot to stage a coup in Gondolin by claiming he was her son (and male heir for the kingdom). Eöl never existed. Or if he did, he was a random guy Aredhel met and used to her own ends. 

Turgon found out about Aredhel's plans (but not about Maeglin) and he was the one who actually killed her.

maybe she was a Fëanorian cult member in secret and was trying to take over Gondolin for them

Túrin son of Húrin, Mormegil, Turambar and the other aliases associated with The Children of Húrin were actually all different guys

nobody can get up to that much weird shit

the real Túrin probably died in Doriath and Melian covered it up

Elured and Elurin survived. They changed their names and became Elrond and Elros. 

Maglor is the Bigfoot of Middle-earth. There is a dedicated fanclub that keeps track of sightings (which are as obscure and bonkers as you could imagine). 

if you subscribe to "Fëanorians were a death cult" theory, then Maglor is actually an ominous cryptid that foretells misfortunes. 

Thingol is alive and lives as a hermit somewhere in Mirkwood.

Thranduil is aware of it and in fact he has helped to keep it secret all this time.

There are also hot takes about Eärendil and Elwing and whether they were real people. 

Eärendil is a half-elf, actual Star and God's favourite little guy. He has a flying ship and travels in space. He keeps an eye on Satan himself. His birth was foretold, he fought and killed the biggest dragon in history in a massive air battle that caused an entire mountain to collapse, and he may have killed Ungoliant. No real person is that special. 

Elwing wouldn't do what bunch of men (who were maybe in a death cult) told her, she's obviously a villain if she existed. She can't die (was directly prevented by divine powers when she tried to) and chose to be immortal. Also being God's favourite little gal and having the ability to turn into a bird? Very suspicious. 

Silmarien and her descendants were the true heirs of Númenor and if they had ruled, Númenor would still exist

the ruling line had many problematic characters that were not well suited to the role

it also culminated in Ar-Pharazon and all the tragedy that his actions brought

Silmarien inherited some of the most important heirlooms from the First Age, which proves that even her father thought she was the true heir

also Silmarien's descendants survived to maintain was what left of the culture and wisdom of Númenor; further proof of Silmarien's right.

[thesummerestsolstice]

Only the elves really see Elrond as "half-elven." They focus, of course, on who he is in relation to them. He's sort-of an elf– enough that they can accept him into their society, but not enough to erase his differences. They understand the different parts of him– his propensity to get sick, his elvish-sharp hearing, his need for sleep, his immortality– as "elvish" or "not-elvish." And while they can be rather condescending about anything they see as "not-elvish," they aren't usually very curious.

Most men regard Elrond vaguely as a fae being. This isn't unique to him– much of Middle-Earth's changling and fairy stories were built on the strange human-and-not-human nature of half-elves. Of course, different humans regard them very differently– sometimes with respect, even reverence, believing that "fairies" are beings of great wisdom and knowledge. Others see them with suspicion and fear, viewing them as sources of danger and deception.

To the Numenorians, Elrond is just one of them– a kind of "immortal man." He is like them in several key ways– he gets ill, he needs sleep, he regards the passage of time in a very "human" way. More importantly, he is their kin, a living remnant and reminder of both their mythical founder and non-human blood they share. He acts as a healer and counselor when they need him. This is all well and good until some of them start thinking that if Elrond could make the choice to be immortal, surely they should be able to as well.

The dwarves see Elrond as an elf. They absolutely do not care enough to tell the difference between him and the others. He's immortal, he's always with a bunch of elves. He's an elf.

The Maiar do not really understand what Elrond is, and have kind of defaulting to seeing him as one of them but like, small. Look, they're all uncounted thousands of years old, he's a child to them. They dote on him and think he's adorable, but sometimes forget that he's also part-elf and part-human, and can't just drop his physical form whenever he likes to go be a disembodied spirit in the clouds. Gandalf encourages all their antics. Elrond is working on it.

(Contrary to popular belief, the average hobbit does not have any kind of opinion on Elrond Peredhel. Bilbo Baggins, who lives in his house and has written several long, extremely personal ballads about his family history, is a statistical outlier and should not have been counted.)

[erendur]

Doriath vaguely hot take : very few people were actually killed during the second kinslaying (unlike the third)

I've been rereading stuff, and I've come to the conclusion that, contrary to popular opinion, the second kinslaying was not a massacre of epic proportions, with many civilian victims, but an episode on a much smaller scale, unlike the massacre in Sirion.

For the following reasons :

I. Any description/allusion to Doriath in the text focuses on Dior as the (almost) only victim of the third kinslaying :

"But Dior returned no answer to the sons of Fëanor ; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves ; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf. There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir ; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest."

That's the main description of the second kinslaying we have, and Dior and his wife are the only direct victims mentioned (on the non-Fëanorian side).

Later on we read this about the Silmaril in Sirion : "Then Elwig and the people of Sirion would not yield the jewel which Beren had worn and Lúthien had worn, and for which Dior the fair was slain (...)"

Again, no mention is made of any victim but Dior (Nimloth is completely forgotten there).

And finally, in the third mention we have of the second kinslaying : "But Eonwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens."

Again, the only mentioned victim is Dior, and there is no indication of further victims. Now, it could be a bias of our sources, who do favour the famous and high-born (and ignore for example armed guards that could have been there), and also Melian/Elwing's line.

BUT :

II. That would make sense if we consider that Doriath was at the time of the second kinslaying recovering from an episode of violence on a, I would argue, much bigger scale :

After Thingol was killed, many people were killed in the fighting between the Dwarves and Elves in the caves of Menegroth ("For there was battle in the Thousand Caves, and many Elves and Dwarves were slain (...). But the Dwarves were victorious, and the halls of Thingol were ransacked and plundered").

Probably, crucially, the majority of these victims were the few warriors that they had. Others were probably killed as well fighting the dwarves later on with Beren and Dior, to avenge Thingol and recover his treasure.

So at the time of the second kinslaying, Dior might have had a few armed guards around him, but the impression we get is that he fights the Sons of Fëanor alone, and I would venture that his wife is killed when she tries to come and defend him.

The rest of the population of Doriath would be non-combatants who just flee, probably like they just fled the first time.

And that's why the text says that "a remnant of the people fled" from Doriath : it's not "a remnant" because the Fëanorians killed them all, it's "a remnant" because they were already what was left of Doriath at the time of their attack.

III.It would also explain why during the third kinslaying some of the people of the sons of Fëanor turn against them, but not during Doriath.

"For the sons of Fëanor that yet lived came down suddenly upon the exiles of Gondolin and the remnant of Doriath, and destroyed them. In that battle some of their people stood aside, and some few rebelled and were slain upon the other part aiding Elwing against their own lords (...)"

We are told that Sirion is : "the last and cruellest of the slayings of Elf by Elf ; and that was the third of the great wrongs achieved by the accursed oath". Sirion is a massacre on a large scale, unlike Doriath.

It would also explain why the third kinslaying is referred to in collective terms, not by singling out one individual. Eonwë talks about "the assault upon the Havens."

IV.I think the reason for the difference in terms of scale of violence between Doriath and Sirion is a strict reading of the Oath :

As a reminder, that's the text of the oath in the Silm : "They swore an oath which none shall break, and none should take (...) vowing to pursue with vengeance and hatred to the ends of the World Vala, Demon, Elf or Man as yet unborn, or any creature, great or small, good or evil, that time should bring forth unto the end of days, whoso should hold or take or keep a Silmaril from their possession."

In Doriath, the Sons of Fëanor ask Dior to return the Silmaril. Dior refuses, Dior is slain.

In Sirion however, it's not just Elwing that refuses to return the Silmaril : it's Elwing "and the people of Sirion". The people of Sirion, collectively, therefore fall under the "vengeance and hatred" of the Sons of Fëanor. And that's why the massacre is on a bigger scale, and some of the Sons of Fëanor's people chose to turn against their lords.

V.It would finally make sense in terms of the gradual descent into violence of the Sons of Fëanor

Time and again, we see them (or at least Maedhros) try and keep the violence to a minimum. He (they) try diplomatic solutions, try and ignore the oath, but "the oath of the sons of Fëanor was waked again from sleep. (...)".

There is a graduation in the violence : first the massacre at Alqualondë, which is not premeditated, then the slaying of Dior and his wife over the Silmaril, then finally the attack over the population of Sirion and, later on, the attack against the guards of the host of the Valar.

[psstwantsomecheese]

Something about Celegorm who looked like Miriel the most and Curufin, Feanor Jr, being an extremely close sibling duo among the Feanorions hmmmmm