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kingsmoot · 9 days ago

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Something I haven't seen brought up much with the ramsay vs manderly horn wood question is about Donella Hornwoods own claim to those lands. She's not a Hornwoods by blood, but by marriage, so she would only have widow's use rights (which I believe are the rights to live there and be supported). Hornwood would need to pass to the next blood claimant or revert to the crown to dispense with if one can't be found. This is why I'm especially confused as to how she can name Ramsay inheritor in a will to lands she doesn't own. (Whereas Catelyn clearly doesn't have the power to will winterfell to Arya over Jon despite being in the same position as the widowed Dowager Queen/Lady)

Instead, it's the manderlys and the bolton at odds over who owns that land, both through Donella, even though she herself doesn't seem to have actual inheritance rights to it. (As opposed to Sansa Stark, who is a blood claimant so Tyrion could legally rule winterfell through her) In any case I think the real crux of the issue, like with the forced marriage, is bigger army diplomacy. Bran mentions a bastard, but unless said bastard can raise an army or get the millitary support of a larger faction, those lands are going to the bolton or the manderlys.

I imagine there isn't a blood relative with any real millitary backing or roose and wyman wouldn't be going through all this trouble for someone who technically only has widow's use rights.

Ultimately, because armies are honestly the biggest decider of succession law in westeros (Aegon II acknowledged as king over Rhaenrya I in histories because he won the war, Maegor over Aegon the uncrowned because he won the war, even the Tyrell's claim to highgarden being a bit dodgy in terms of blood relations but backed up by the targaryen millitary power of the time etc), whether or not Donellas's marriage and contract are going to be considered valid according to history will depend on who is in power. Should the boltons be toppled, I think the new lord/lady/king/queen of the north will suddenly be hearing a lot of arguments about the legality of vows forced at sword point that no one dares take to roose bolton now.

hello anon, thank you for your thoughtful message!! the hornwood marriage and its fallout is one of my favorite subplots of the series so i'm always thrilled to talk about it.

while i agree with your final conclusion that armies are the biggest decider of succession law in westeros (i talked about this here re: lord manderly and his squatting on hornwood after donella's death), i think you're underselling donella's legal claim to hornwood as lord hornwood's widow as they apply to her lord husband.

look at lysa tully, jon arryn's widow:

agot, chapter 34, catelyn vi

you could say that lysa only has a claim to the vale because she has the men to back it. lady hornwood is alone. her son and her husband were killed, and the majority if not all of her household guard were killed as well. she is the last remnant of house hornwood.

the degree to which wives who marry into greathouses are integrated into that breathouse is variable. cat, as a notable example, calls herself a stark as often as she calls herself a tully. tyrion (and others i think) calls her a shewolf. she considers herself an outsider, a riverlander in the north, but as the series progresses and especially after ned's death she speaks about herself in her private thoughts and aloud in public as a stark of winterfell. cersei, on the other hand, would drop dead before she called herself a baratheon. and lysa falls moreso in the middle, where she is called lysa tully and after the death of her husband is often reminded of/aligned with her familial connections to house tully, but absolutely considers herself Of The Vale, even though she's spent about fourteen years in king's landing with jon serving as robert's hand. (donella, for as long as we know her, is always and by everyone referred to as lady hornwood, never donella manderly).

so one could argue that lysa tully is pointedly not an arryn, and is only holding the vale because her son is a blood claimant AND she has tully and arryn forces to support her own claim in the meantime.

but suitors are beating down lysa's door because they want the vale. and the vale would pass to them as the new head of the vale and defacto head of house arryn. i was going to use ramsay as an example but his bastard status makes this more complicated so let's pick a legitimate second son. why can't i think of anyone.

actually, let's say tyrion, since you also mentioned sansa's blood rights to winterfell.

tyrion is heir by blood to casterly rock, since jaime is a knight of the kingsguard and thus unable to inherit. let's axe that because it also makes things more complicated. jaime leaves the kingsguard as tywin wants him to do and he inherits casterly rock and becomes warden of the west. this leaves tyrion a second son with no blood claim to casterly rock (similar to the blackfish, who left house tully to go with lysa to the vale and serve house arryn. i didn't use him as an example because lysa's husband also being a tully would muddy the waters of an example that is already stretched pretty thin). so tyrion marries lysa tully. tyrion is now lord of the vale, stepfather to lord robert aryn. tyrion's first order of business would be siring a son on his new wife so that lord baby lannister-tully would become the new heir to the vale, trumping robert arryn's claim. all of this would come from lysa tully's claim to the vale, as the widow of jon arryn.

importantly, donella hornwood is considered an elligible marriage prospect by the men at winterfell, even if she is too old to have children.

Midday came and went. Maester Luwin sent Poxy Tym down to the kitchens, and they dined in the solar on cheese, capons, and brown oatbread. While tearing apart a bird with fat fingers, Lord Wyman made polite inquiry after Lady Hornwood, who was a cousin of his. “She was born a Manderly, you know. Perhaps, when her grief has run its course, she would like to be a Manderly again, eh?” He took a bite from a wing, and smiled broadly. “As it happens, I am a widower these past eight years. Past time I took another wife, don’t you agree, my lords? A man does get lonely.” Tossing the bones aside, he reached for a leg. “Or if the lady fancies a younger lad, well, my son Wendel is unwed as well. He is off south guarding Lady Catelyn, but no doubt he will wish to take a bride on his return. A valiant boy, and jolly. Just the man to teach her to laugh again, eh?” He wiped a bit of grease off his chin with the sleeve of his tunic.

acok, chapter 16, bran ii

here we see lord manderly scheming to get the hornwood lands by marriage, for either himself or his son

Bran wanted to give the lady a hundred men to defend her rights, but Ser Rodrik only said, “He may look, but should he do more I promise you there will be dire retribution. You will be safe enough, my lady … though perhaps in time, when your grief is passed, you may find it prudent to wed again.”

“I am past my childbearing years, what beauty I had long fled,” she replied with a tired half smile, “yet men come sniffing after me as they never did when I was a maid.”

“You do not look favorably on these suitors?” asked Luwin.

“I shall wed again if His Grace commands it,” Lady Hornwood replied, “but Mors Crowfood is a drunken brute, and older than my father. As for my noble cousin of Manderly, my lord’s bed is not large enough to hold one of his majesty, and I am surely too small and frail to lie beneath him.”

Bran knew that men slept on top of women when they shared a bed. Sleeping under Lord Manderly would be like sleeping under a fallen horse, he imagined. Ser Rodrik gave the widow a sympathetic nod. “You will have other suitors, my lady. We shall try and find you a prospect more to your taste.”

“Perhaps you need not look very far, ser.” After she had taken her leave, Maester Luwin smiled. “Ser Rodrik, I do believe my lady fancies you.” Ser Rodrik cleared his throat and looked uncomfortable.

acok, chapter 26, bran ii

and here we see donella both acknowledging her many suitors and flirting with ser rodrik (cute!!!)

immediately after this though we get a more pragmatic breakdown of why donella's dead husband and son cause issues politically:

“She was very sad,” said Bran.

Ser Rodrik nodded. “Sad and gentle, and not at all uncomely for a woman of her years, for all her modesty. Yet a danger to the peace of your brother’s realm nonetheless.”

“Her?” Bran said, astonished. Maester Luwin answered. “With no direct heir, there are sure to be many claimants contending for the Hornwood lands. The Tallharts, Flints, and Karstarks all have ties to House Hornwood through the female line, and the Glovers are fostering Lord Harys’s bastard at Deepwood Motte. The Dreadfort has no claim that I know, but the lands adjoin, and Roose Bolton is not one to overlook such a chance.”

Ser Rodrik tugged at his whiskers. “In such cases, her liege lord must find her a suitable match.”

“Why can’t you marry her?” Bran asked. “You said she was comely, and Beth would have a mother.” The old knight put a hand on Bran’s arm. “A kindly thought, my prince, but I am only a knight, and besides too old. I might hold her lands for a few years, but as soon as I died Lady Hornwood would find herself back in the same mire, and Beth’s prospects might be perilous as well.”

“Then let Lord Hornwood’s bastard be the heir,” Bran said, thinking of his half brother Jon. Ser Rodrik said, “That would please the Glovers, and perhaps Lord Hornwood’s shade as well, but I do not think Lady Hornwood would love us. The boy is not of her blood.”

“Still,” said Maester Luwin, “it must be considered. Lady Donella is past her fertile years, as she said herself. If not the bastard, who?”

“May I be excused?” Bran could hear the squires at their swordplay in the yard below, the ring of steel on steel.

acok, chapter 26, bran ii

so we're right back to the point where you and i totally agree. the only thing that REALLY decides inheritance rights in westeros is the point of a sword.

which wheels us back to my longstanding point (arrived at throughout my first reread and with the help of many friendly mutuals and anons who contributed to my understanding of the issue) that ramsay kidnapping donella hornwood and marrying her at swordpoint is unusual because he is an unrecognized illegitimate bastard when he does it, but is at the end of the day not that much more brutal or unheard of than any other run of the mill marriage in westeros.

so donella here is like a vector through which the hornwood lands would pass. lysa's situation with the vale is similar, though her claim to the keep and its lands is stronger because she has a living heir AND both tully and arryn forces to guard her claim.

ramsay banked on the dreadfort's forces to protect him from the ramifications of kidnapping raping and murdering a noblewoman AND to hold the hornwood lands. the dreadfort forces could do neither. but the marriage was not a total loss politically since as i have said, ramsay is the legal claimant to the hornwood lands, AND roose has an interest in holding those lands as well so he would back his claim if it came to it.

as with all things in westeros, whoever carries the biggest stick wins the day, regardless of written law or unwritten social custom.

so at the end of the day, i think donella's legal rights to hornwood are strong only insofar as they serve her new lord husband, who stands to inherit her land. which. actually reading over all this again i think it is accurate of you to say that donella only has widow's rights for as long as she does not remarry. but that is less to do with westerosi legal code (nonexistant) and more to do with hornwood having no military strength left AND their leige lords the starks being stretched too thin with the WoFK to lend their help before it's too late to do so.

donella can will her lands to her new husband ramsay because she would have functionally been doing to same thing if lord manderly or his son married her. or if ser rodrik married her. donella has claim over hornwood only insofar as she can give it to her lord husband.

#anon tag #ask tag #ramsay tag #seven kingdoms family law attorney

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damnedserenity · 3 months ago

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I am calling it my Female fighters au and for the first character introduction we have: Fu Hao

Intro, R3, R4, R7

Historical facts:

•She was a concubine, priestess and general in the Shang dynasty having died in 1200bc

•She did multiple millitary campaigns defeating the enemies of the Shang dynasty most notably the Tufanh who fought for generations only to be defeated in one battle

•"Further campaigns against the neighbouring Yi, Qiang and Ba followed; the latter is particularly remembered for being the earliest recorded large-scale ambush in Chinese history. With up to 13,000 soldiers and important generals Zhi and Hou Gao serving under her, she was the most powerful Shang general of her time"- Wikipedia

•Her tomb was very extensive having 700+ jade objects, 500 oracle bones (from her role as a priestess) along with 6 canine and 16 human sacrifices

In RoR

•She takes the place of Lu Bu against Thor and while she loses her fight against him she still culminates both fear and awe in both humans and gods

•Her Volund is a battle axe, one of the many weapons she was buried with

•She is a very tall, well built woman with long hair kept in a pun (bun into ponytail) with clothing a mix of traditional Shang dynasty clothing and battle armour

•Her backstory includes her relationship with King Wu ding as they both cared deeply for eachother in life, there are records of him worrying for her health after having children and mourning her death

•When heading of her in involvement in Ragnarok he went to Brunhilde and tried to convince her to change her mind but was put off but Fu hao herself

•Her last thought before death was a memory of her husband and her racing in war chariots right after her return from battle

All in all she is a very determined and strong willed woman who earns her opponent's respect. Her main flaws tend to be insensitivity to other's feelings and short sightedness, the latter resulting in her defeat.

Ragnarok AU Round 1 Winner: Thor.

#ror #record of ragnarok #thor ror #thor #ror au #record of ragnarok au #female fighter au #fu hao #shuumatsu no walkure #shuumatsu no valkyrie #snv

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spirkkock · 16 days ago

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go for broke and franklin!!

franklin - who’s an underrated character in your opinion?

Morfin! I think unfortunately most of his presence in the show is being a “canary in the coal mine” as it were. But I’m obsessed with the little glimpse we get of his past with the lashing…. I’m currently writing up an analysis of that scene. He definitely got caught buggering another sailor 🫡 Godspeed gay boy.

go for broke - what role do you think you’d be good in on a polar expedition?

Ohhhhhhhhh… this is tough. Based on my family’s history as being officers in the millitary, I think I would have been middle-bred and well educated enough to be eligible for and capable of “moving up the ranks” aka, I think I would be a midshipman / on track to becoming an officer. That being said, I think I’d be most eager to be a Sailing Master. I’ve crewed a racing sailboat IRL and I think it would be so much fun to work on the deck.

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scorittanius · 1 month ago

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i am once again begging anyone who has any trace of culinary history during the world wars, be it homefront cookbooks, millitary material, handwritten recipes, letters from soldiers talking about the food on field or fuckin' jarred cheese spead ads, GIVE THEM TO ME. I WANT THEM. NOT WANT, I NEED THEM. PLEASEEEEEEEEEE. oh my fuck especially any from australia that aren't just the whole ANZAC bully beef and hardtack shtick everyone's read up on. i really, REALLY want to make a little archive of millitary recipes complete with their associated battles and hardships because it's so fuckin fascinating to me but can't find shit

#culinary history #ww1 #ww2 #<- normally i'd avoid these tags like the plague given what.. certain.. ww2 fanatics tend to be like. but. i'm desperate at this point.

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anarchotolkienist · 2 years ago

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Most American leftist interest in Ireland and in Republicanism isn't based on an analysis or understanding of the colonisation of Ireland, any understanding or interest in the goings-on of the people, any knowledge of Irish history or the importance of Ireland as a proving ground for British settler colonialism and, in recent years, a colonial region to practice millitary policing in urban areas. It's based on finally having a white anti-colonial movement to support.

#leftist plastic paddies

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alltimefail-sims · 1 year ago

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Lenore Elizabeth Barnes Submission for @simsinfinitylt's Adam

The Basics: -> Human; She/Her -> Bisexual -> Currently lives in Britechester - She's a student there, studying to be an archaeologist! (Majoring in Art History) -> Young Adult (irl probably 21)

Background below the cut! ↓

To put it bluntly, Lenore has always loved people: their kindness, their art, their imperfections, everything about them. She's curious about the world around her, a bit of a "Matilda" type in her childhood as she loved (and still loves) to read, learn, and soak up as much information as possible. She's always been quick to dismiss small talk and eager to try and understand big, complex things. People would coo over little Lenore, pinching her cheeks and calling her things like "old soul" and "wise beyond her years," but in all fairness, her high level of maturity might have just been a byproduct of being an only child surrounded solely by adults as opposed to children her own age. Lenore was an only child, homeschooled most of her life up until high school as her mom and dad both served in the millitary. Because of this, they never lived in one place for long: there was one year in Mt. Komorebi, three years in Windenburg (her favorite place she has lived to date), a year in Selvadorada, a year where she spent half of it in Del Sol Valley and the other half in Oasis Springs (that year sucked), and the list goes on. But after her father was discharged due to a near-fatal injury, they finally settled in Copperdale just long enough for Lenore to enroll in traditional high school.

In theory, the adjustment should have been tough - but Lenore, charismatic and kind, immediately flourished in the new environment. She wasn't popular, but she quickly got involved enough to be recognizable and well-liked by her classmates. She went to the social events, even the silly dances, and she made the best of those awkward years. Lenore didn't plan to peak though: she was just getting started. She knew that she never wanted instability again and that she would go to her dream college, live on campus, earn a degree, and create a life that full of adventure, discovery, companionship, and most of all...love.

The dream school is going great, but she's ran into some problems with the "love" part. She's come to find that making friends is a lot easier than dating... but she's working on it! She's still young, and who knows? Her perfect person could be out there looking for her, too...

PRIVATE DL

#If uni minors were a thing she would so be an art history major with a philosophy minor lol. She'd probably dabble in anthropology too #Anyway she is as absolutely Maxis Match as I have ever done!! I exhibited restraint and I'm proud! I hope you like her <3 #adam bc #ts4 #simblr #ts4 cas #my ocs #bachelor challenge submission #simsinfinitylt #atfs #oc: lenore

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crodur · 5 months ago

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Ancient and distant dragons (part II)

Last time we saw what the Chinese, Sumerian and Slavic civilizations understood by ''dragon'', along with other groups related to those. So, let's see other examples of this idea, close coincidences and divergences!

I would talk in depth about the European dragon itself. However, and oddly enough, such mythical being is not entirely original, like the examples we're trying to gather, more like a very baroque conglomerate of influences that eventually came to be the winged lizard we all know. So let's talk, instead, about the roots behind it.

However, it's inspirations are quite curious. The European or Conventional Dragon, is a mixture of two different ''dragonlike beings'', both unaware of each other, as far as we know!

The first influence is, surprisingly the Sumerian Mušḫuššu we previously looked at. Told you that the idea of an animal with reptilian traits would stick around!

Second one is more obscure. It is believed the Dacian Drakon could be a major player. This creature has a very confusing genealogy, being on it's own the result of a lot of artistic depictions of beasts, streetching as far as the 8th century BCE, and for over a thousand years it suffered a great amount of changes, being consistently depicted as a mixture of a snake and another, different animal.

By the time the Roman Empire assimilated the Dacians (located where modern Romania is) at 2th c. AD and incorporated the creature into their own mythos, it was mostly a wolf headed, thick snake. It was quite important for the native Dacians, represented as a protecting spirit in both millitary vexilloids and wind instruments such as horns.

A ferocious Dacian Drako, engraved in the Roman Tracian column.

Those two creatures (Drakon and Mušḫuššu) loosely permeated, along with other influences such as local, folklore beasts of many sorts, and depictions of snakes as the root of evil (a consistent avatar of the Christian Devil, as soon as in the Genesis book of the Bible, but in many other occasions, such as Isaiah book [14:29]).

All those influences, after centuries of obscurity, were gradually sewn together during the Middle Ages (remember, most classical knowledge and folklore was reduced to residual traces during this historial period) into the big, bad dragon that the forces of good must defeat.

A winged snake, a somewhat popular heraldic symbol (this one in particular is from 17th century, though). A possible additional influence in this dense melting pot?

The slavic dragons we saw in the previous post most likely were a direct influence of this trend, one of the many types created by mixing chimeras and local beasts alike.

What we can safely say, is that the european dragons are a byproduct of many ideas of different ages and places colliding together. We all influence each other through the time!

Of course, there were many differing interpretations under the umbrella of dragonhood, here's a french one that incorporates particular body proportions, and devilish goat horns (from the 1410 manuscript The Crucifixion by a follower of Egerton Master). What an awe inspiring fiend!

But let's put the european ones aside, and take another loooong leap. How about... you guessed it...

Mesoamerica!

Mayas, Toltecs, and others do have, too, a remote tradition of dragonlike monsters who weren't mere beasts, but even reached the status of godhood!

The cosmology of many different groups in upper central america has in common the reverence of a being called ''the feathered snake'', adored since XV century BCE, and until the arrival of the Castillian crown, some 3000 years later. Wow!

The first peoples that depicted such a being were the Olmecs, considered as one of the first greater cultural identities in the Americas. Here's the first known feathered snake, in La Venta settlement:

A feather crested, giant snake with a man (who wears a fanged helmet), considered by some as his alter-ego. The bag the man holds appears to represent a ritual of sorts, and his earpiece implies high ranking status.

The Olmecs left, as we said, a long lasting legacy that affected cultures far away from their territories.

The serpent would later be adopted into the maya God Kꞌuꞌukꞌul Kaan (lit. Feathered Snake), represented in many royal steels (as we saw here) as the being that allows an ajaw (lord) to see his ancestors, and win their favor to be crowned. In the case of the Toltecs, it was named Quetzacoatl (both names sound vaguely similar)

A feathered serpent, found among the ruins of the maya Poqomam kingdom, with a human head pecking out, as per usual with maya iconography.

The Toltec, and later on Aztec Quetzacoatl, God of light, life, civilization and knowledge. Notice how this version was more birdlike, totally covered by feathers, but also with a mouth whose jaw contracted into a spiral, almost resembling a pair of twirled whiskers (not intended, but still curious).

That's some long lasting impression, to say the least!

In the following post, we'll see some more dragonlikes, also created fortuitously and with no connection with the rest of this really extended family. Remember that I only write small pieces of info, and usually I do skim over a lot when covering these topics, so if you want to know more, I encourage you to keep researching on ANYTHING that has caught your attention. (Or, well, ask me for an indepth post apart, which I would gladly investigate and redact).

Until next time!

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