#Men who hate women

[grison-in-space]

I am not particularly interested in a “redemption” narrative for incels. That is a question for those individuals to ponder. We do not implore the victims of other forms of terrorism to absolve and educate their tormentors. Nor do we require that other extremists be acknowledged as some kind of wounded, misunderstood victims. It is ironic that so much pressure is brought to bear on women to allow for the humanity and individuality of fallible men when it is precisely this courtesy that incels unfailingly refuse to pay to women.

But I am interested in the men in between. The boys who fall through the cracks. The “good” men who feel scared. The ones who went looking for help, because they felt frightened or sad or lonely, and haven’t been able to disentangle themselves. The ones who just haven’t heard about any of this yet. The ones who look the other way on the bus. Because we can’t change anything without those men. So how do we reach them?

Laura Bates, Men Who Hate Women (2020).

Importantly, she's just spent a lot of time talking about men-led feminist groups that do good work, both in terms of reducing domestic violence and other "traditional" feminist concerns and in terms of providing other narratives, support structures, and information about things that men, like all people, care about: how to keep yourself safe physically and emotionally; how to cope with feeling frightened or uncertain; how to communicate with other people in a world that feels zero sum and frightening.

It's a good, thoughtful discussion of what it means to respond to radicalization in an effective way: you reduce the pain points that funnel people towards radicalized groups, you provide them with positive things to do to help themselves, and you provide empathy to anyone who is willing to provide empathy back to you. But you don't immolate yourself on the altar of healing people who already hate you: you focus on the ones who are easy to help first, the ones who need only a little help, and then you expand.

It's a heavy book, but well worth reading—and not only if you're interested in online misogyny and radicalization. I would recommend the book to anyone with an interest in gender, building a better world, deradicalization, and effectively handling terrorism.

[feminist-furby-freak]

hey,

I sometimes watch “The dadvocate” and wondered if you ever were recommended her videos by your male friends/ from YouTube itself? I’m not a feminist outspokenly and sometimes I try to see both sides - I do notice other women are critiqued more harsher than the other sex even when I don’t agree what they’ve done. Wishing you a happy morning or day, thanks for reading 💛

Hey! So I genuinely don't have male friends (I have one gay male friend but other than that I do not talk to men). I just looked up her channel I've never heard of it or gotten it recommended -- is she just some sort of men's rights lady who is like boo hoo dads never get custody and men always kill themselves and all rape accusations are fake? That is what it looks like. I'm always yapping about this book but Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates is really great at unpacking the modern anti-women movement, not just the incels but also the false "fathers' rights" and "men's rights" movements.

[maslows-pyramid-scheme]

I'm reading Laura Bates' Men Who Hate Women and I think Bates is far too willing to believe some men find and join extremist communities because they're shy, socially inept, or unsure how to approach women - I disagree, I think men have to dehumanise women to some extent in order to find/join these communities (and I'd imagine they're getting that base dehumanisation from pornography).

For example, Bates notes that 'pick-up' communities frequently feature racist and homophobic/biphobic ideas about women of colour and lesbian/bisexual women:

Like much of the manosphere, the PUA ['pick up artist'] community presents deeply problematic racist stereotypes, particularly through sweeping generalisations about the 'types' of women in different countries, suggesting that they all conform to dehumanising stereotypes. (Women from a particular European country are sex-crazed; Asian women are submissive to white men; etc.) One well-known pick-up guru's website, for example, offers an 'American Man's Guide to Seducing Oriental Women,' which, after a disclaimer to reassure readers he's not a racist, goes on to promise it can tech men how to 'get all the yellow and pink you can handle' by building their own 'harem of willing, docile, obedient Oriental chicks' ... [featuring topics like] 'how to use your vastly superior knowledge of American culture to appear as god-like superman in her eyes, who she is compelled to obey, serve, and satisfy!' ... Pick-up gurus present damaging and prejudiced stereotypes about lesbians (who are often portrayed as simply not having been 'banged' by the right man yet, thus actively encouraging straight men to harass them) and bisexual women (who are presented as exotic, sexually greedy creatures, whose main reason for existence is to spice up the sex lives of heterosexual men). Some pick-up gurus even capitalise on these stereotypes to the extent of branding themselves 'experts' in bedding such women.

But Bates never addresses the dehumanising wants these communities purportedly address (or use to suck men in): if they're about overcoming shyness, insecurity, or talking to women, then why would men get invested in communities aimed at helping men where (enthusiastic) consent is either entirely absent (for lesbians, who are not sexually attracted to men), or mitigated by coercion (for Asian women, who get reduced down to sex toys; for bisexual women, who get reduced down to a real-life pornographic film)?

[1000rh]

Emotions are equated with shame, and boys are encouraged to hide them. Isolation breeds longing for community. Shame breeds desperation for prestige, for respect, for a sense of purpose. A sense of vulnerability [...] leads naturally to a desire for the security of a group allegiance. All these cravings are gleefully satisfied by manosphere communities, keen to seize upon disenfranchised, angry young men and fill their gaping holes with false promises, skewed logic and hate.

– Laura Bates, Men Who Hate Women (2020)

[gothicvalentine]

Must watch video compilation. They're coming out and saying they want to go back at least 100 years, before women had rights, one guy said they want to go back to the middle ages and another that things went wrong when "we" stopped burning women at the stake.

Mention was made that they want to make The Handmaid's Tale real--and worse. What the guy means by "and worse" can only be imagined, but considering the actual state sanctioned r*pe in the book and show, it really makes me concerned about them trying to implement forcing women to submit to having sex with (yeah r*ape) men who are not able to get laid, but also feel like they should be able to have sex with supermodels. There's obviously more men than not who will never be able to have sex with super hot women and not all of them can become wealthy enough to make their grossness irrelevant. I've seen articles where it's been stated that some incels have proposed the government "give" them hot women. Like we're nothing more than animals or food.

I know younger people keep complaining that Democrats keep saying that elections are "the most important ever." And I guess it sounds like we're "The Boy Who Cried Wolf."

But it's shit like this that has become more and more open and mainstreamed. So much so that every future election may continue to be "the most important." Because at this point, we're just trying to keep America a democracy (or Democratic Republic or whatever the fuck the legal def is).

These people are the enemy of our country and anyone who wants freedom for women, POC, LGBTQIA, men who don't fit their criteria of "manly men," the lower classes, immigrants, disabled people, neurodivergent people--and anyone I may have forgotten. We have to remain vigilant!

Sadly, for anyone who isn't convinced, I think the only thing that would convince them is if we do lose our freedoms, and I, for one, am not willing to let things get that far! It's enraging enough to me that they've rolled back civil rights and Roe despite everything I've been doing to try to at least maintain the status quo. I'll keep fighting though.

Because I may not fit into most of these groups, but just because someone is different from me, does not mean they should not be able to live happy lives, be the person they are and love who they love. All of you who are dissimilar to me are just as important as I am and the law should consider you all as such. When it doesn't, that's when I have a problem with any of those legislators, even if they are in different states. I wish I had billions of dollars so I could at least try to counteract all the douchy billionaires! 😭

[smallsinger5901]

More people need to read this book

[distractedpebble]

I started reading a book called "Men Who Hate Women" by Laura Bates. I'm not even q chapter through it but I can tell this is going to be one of those books that takes me a while to get through because the subject matter is making me physically ill. The part I'm reading is focusing on incels and incel forums and while I know about incels and how hateful they are, I didn't realize just how far they go on those forums.

So far it's a 10/10 book, just incredibly disturbing. Learning about "rapecels" and even a part of the community called "wristcels." Like...what the fuck is this??? Holy shit.

[feralgirlfromatl]

[boldlypaletraveler]

Should be interesting.

- Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bates

[qaytesquorner]

"equality? yeah! let's b3at women up!"

y'all sound dumb

[thebotanicalarcade]

[voidcommascreamintothe]

People who hate cats 🤝 people who dont understand that you should care about others

“I do genuinely believe that’s true, based on nothing”

— Ethan Klein, host of the h3h3 youtube channel.

Well I believe this based on a few personal observations I have made about the human condition.

Now, a bit of housekeeping before I start my rant; I am aware that there are some studies out there about the correlation between misogynistic beliefs and the hate/dislike of cats, however I haven’t read them, and will not be discussing them and their findings. This, like everything else I write here, is based on anecdotal evidence and personal experience. Although I am writing as if I am addressing the reader of the text, I don’t actually expect this to be read by another human being, and is mostly “stream of conciseness”. Now, the rant may commence.

I also am afraid of dogs, for I have been attacked twice, and have never liked them to begin with, so this might make me biased. This is important for later in the text.

It has been a long standing belief of mine, that people who do not like, and even hate, cats, hate that cats are often very independent creatures who set firm boundaries. These people find it hard to believe that one has to actively work to gain the trust and affections of this animal, because, well, they think that animals are supposed to be obedient and grateful for the bare minimum. You know, like a dog. You feed a cat, play with it, give it treats, but that never assures loyalty. You have to be able to respect your feline friend and the very clear boundaries that they set with you. You sometimes love them from a distance and pet them once a week or risk getting smacked, and they will eventually learn to trust you. You cannot train them in the same way you train a dog. You cannot keep them away from certain rooms in your home, and at the end of the day, why should you? They live here, in this home, with you, don’t they? They might not be sentient like us humans, but they are independent creatures and deserve comfort.

A dog is an animal whose behavior you must control and train. A dog is the animal you keep away from certain rooms. A dog is the animal who you must train and control to the point of telling them when they must pee, or you risk aggression and other anti-social behaviors. A certain genre of dog people, often do not fathom that you can’t, and really shouldn’t, enjoy the fact that you control every aspect of your pet’s life.

Isn’t it strange, this level of control? It never sat right with me. Keeping animals off the couch or bed, simply because you don’t want hair there. All animals produce waste, including us humans. You cannot keep a pet, and guard yourself against the natural waste they create, pee, poo, hair, vomit, all of the above. When my cats jump on the kitchen counters, I pick them up, put them down and away from the kitchen, and wipe the counter clean. But they are never forbidden from any space in my home, because they live here too. And to be fair, dog people who generally love all animals, but just prefer to keep dogs over cats, understand this too. There are dog people who care for dogs and cats and all animals alike, and treat all the pets they might have with dignity.

The specific genre of (and I hesitate to say dog people here, for they give all the dog people a bad reputation), dog people I am talking about here, hate cats and make it their whole personality that they hate cats. I firmly believe that this is because they hate the independent creatures with boundaries. They keep dogs because you can exert a lot of control over them. Something you cant really do with cats. Or women. It is a dog whistle (ironic, I know) to me, and it signals misogyny. They clearly express this by insisting on pushing boundaries, seeing just how far they can take their behavior.

In addition to this, these people also hate all other animals. I firmly believe that they do not fathom that these creatures should be given respect and should be treated decently, even the ones we eat. I believe that they do not see, or realize, that animals are not less than us humans, just because they are not sentient in the way we are. Animals might not be self-aware like we are, but they should be cared about, and for.

Speaking in broad terms here, but I think that caring about animals, pulls a thread here or there, and makes you thing about more than one problem. Think about it. Caring about animal rights, leads to thinking about their living conditions, which leads into thinking about factory farms, and that inevitably leads to climate change, via the impact of farming industries on the greenhouse effect and global warming. If we push on this logic further, this also leads to thinking about how to feed the entire human population. Factory farming often lends way to talking about the “meat vs plant diet” debate, which is tied to human consumption and our effect on the environment. This connects to the right to food, and obviously to human rights in general, if one is intellectually curious enough to follow through on the thought pattern. The threads of human rights don’t, or at least shouldn’t end with food. They bleed into the right to healthcare, the right to education, and numerous others.

Like I said, speaking in broad terms, but wouldn’t it be possible that understanding that you should care about animals, even if they are not creatures like you, leads to understand that you should care about other people, even if they are not people like you? If you view animals as lesser than, then whats stopping you from viewing other people as less than you? Say, marginalized groups like those whose sexuality or race or gender are not your own?

Well adjusted people with empathy, who love animals but happen to prefer dogs, would understand this. People who hate cats and other animals wouldn’t. Those people I feel like, would not perceive cats as independent creatures, the same way that they would not fully understand how women are independent human beings.

Someone who is not intellectually capable, or intellectually curious enough, to follow this thought process, will not be capable of understanding that one should care and should show basic empathy towards others, animals included. They lack the capabilities to express this or even understand this, so it manifests as hate and disdain. Much how someone would hate a cat for simply asking to be loved on their terms, they would hate a woman who sets boundaries with them.

Empathy is a uniquely human trait. It may be the reason we survived as a species, as long as we did. Understanding that others deserve to be cared for, and to be cared about, is an exercise in having empathy.

The othering of people, and the subjugation of those “other” groups starts quietly and sneakily, with the disdain if animals and the disregard for their wellbeing.

[rawstrap]

I've seen people say terf rhetoric is any hatred of men and I've seen people say terf rhetoric is anything transphobic said by anyone. the refusal to actually engage with the reality that terfism is primarily focused on oppressing trans women is in itself a form of transmisogyny. yes they hate all trans people, but it is quite easy to see who they primarily target with their words, actions and policies, you just don't want to care about trans women. claiming someone is a man hater doesn't mean you get to call them a terf or a radfem, thats an obvious, willfull dilution and denial of what terfs are.

[1000rh]

We do not, as a rule, talk about male perpetrators of violence against women. We describe a woman as having been raped; we discuss the rates of women sexually assaulted or beaten. We do not speak in terms of men committing rape or being sexual assaulters and violent abusers. That is what makes it so easy to focus on women’s dress, behaviour and choices when we consider sexual violence. [...] When we are forced to confront these men, because high-profile cases hit the headlines, we describe them as ‘beasts’ and ‘monsters’, in order to separate them clearly from those other, ordinary, decent men, among whom we walk every day. We do not count them, quantify them or, in any meaningful sense, study them. In fact, we rarely think about them at all.

– Laura Bates, Men Who Hate Women (2020)

[countess-of-edessa]

the world is so fucked up and i can't help but think the damage is irreparable when i see people talking about how unusual and prudish it is to wait six to ten dates before having sex with someone. ten dates??? roughly like twenty five hours of interaction????? ten old timer burgers and mango iced teas from chilis equals sex?????? the possibility of pregnancy, STDs, emotional devastation, lifelong consequences, not to mention just straight up the possibility of getting murdered, with a STRANGER you have hung out with for maybe like two months???? and that's a LONG TIME???? and if you feel weird about that and don't want to do that that makes you NOT HETEROSEXUAL????? THATS AN ORIENTATION???? BECAUSE ITS SO OUTSIDE OF THE NORM OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR ????? i hate all of you i hate you i hate you i hate you every day i hate and I hate and I hate you