#Mdzs meta

[starry-eyed-psychopomp]

Hey so am I like the only one who picked up on the parallel between Madame Yu and Jiang Fengmian’s last words to Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian?

Because this is what Madame Yu does:

She hugs and kisses Jiang Cheng, then turns around and tells Wei Wuxian to protect him at all costs

And this is what Jiang Fengmian does:

He strokes Jiang Cheng’s head, then turns to Wei Wuxian and tells him to protect Jiang Cheng

I cannot stress enough that these interactions happen within five pages of each other. Like, Madame Yu is harsher with Wei Wuxian than Jiang Fengmian is, but these are fundamentally the same things. They comfort Jiang Cheng like parents, then they order Wei Wuxian to protect their son.

I’ll never really believe the take that Jiang Fengmian saw Wei Wuxian as a son and favored him over Jiang Cheng because when it came down to it, these were his last words to them. He may have been kinder to Wei Wuxian than Madame Yu was, but fundamentally he never saw him as any more of his own son than she did

[potnialabyrinthoio95]

Jiang Cheng isn't a pragmatist: he's an elitist cruel twisted jerkass and a coward who got everything in his life only thanks to his family name and Wei Wuxian's genius and kindness.

thinking about how all of the flashbacks in mdzs set up the idea that wwx can 'do the impossible' and jc can't, how jc, a pragmatist, doesn't believe he can 'do the impossible' and the expectation to do so is an immense burden on his shoulders so he works hard to overcome his misfortune and shortcomings, and in doing so succeeds in revitalizing his sect.

while wwx heroically does his best to 'do the impossible' but ultimately the wen remnants all die and he is killed by the backlash of his own creation.

at the very beginning of the novel, wwx admits to lqr that he hasn't figured out how one could utilize resentful energy without losing control and hurting people. and he never does. he tried to invent a new method of cultivation but he failed, and it killed him.

[pumpkinpaix]

not to throw an mdzs apple of discord out there in the year of our lord 2025, but i've been thinking about how it's arguable that nie huaisang's approach to revenge is pretty comparable to xue yang's.

if i were really committed to yeeting the apple, I'd have titled this post "nie huaisang is just as morally corrupt as xue yang" or something, but that's not entirely what I mean or like, what exactly has got me stuck on thinking about it. i suspect it's the strange obsession mdzs fandom has with "proving" characters' purity or damnation one way or another at the cost of the story's core themes that's really soured huaisang as a character for me while xue yang still delights me with his horrors. to my knowledge, there isn't a large contingent of fans arguing that xue yang was justified (阿弥fucking陀佛) but there's definitely a significant number arguing similar for huaisang.

i've said before that "there's no equivalent justice so xue yang actually kind of has a point" (despite being totally unjustified!!), and it's interesting to me that I am disinclined to try and understand nie huaisang in the same way. perhaps it's because xue yang's selfishness and excessive revenge comes from a place of disenfranchisement while nie huaisang's comes from a place of privilege. or maybe it's just because nie huaisang already has enough defenders.

something about how nie huaisang privileges the loss of his brother over everyone else's losses and lives is really makes me balk. to get back at jin guangyao for nie mingjue's death, huaisang is prepared to let other people suffer loss in the same way he has as compensation. his revenge, other people's loss; xue yang's finger, other people's lives. the reasoning's not dissimilar. in the same way that xue yang lies to xiao xingchen and tricks him into killing someone he loves, nie huaisang does the same thing to lan xichen: xue yang for his own entertainment, nie huaisang to keep his own hands clean.

huaisang is a really effective driver of the narrative in the present-day arc because his revenge plot is so chaotic (and frankly, not very good) and scattershot. interesting situations arise because of all the collateral damage that huaisang is perfectly prepared for other people to sustain in the course of his plan--it doesn't matter to him. whether the juniors live or die is immaterial, and the potential suffering of their loved ones is also immaterial to him because all of it can be used to further his own objectives. that makes for a really cool plot device because everything happening to our main characters is a byproduct of a plan that has very little to do with them personally. they're the main characters to us, but the side characters in the bigger plot they're entangled in. the bigger plot is actually just like. not really about wangxian at all! they're just player pieces that nie huaisang is trying to use in his conflict between jin guangyao. wangxian get their shot at a happy ending because nie huaisang decided that they might be useful, not because it was something they earned or deserved which i find to be a very compelling way to approach their story.

overly simplistic and reductionist summary: huaisang is a villain and i wish more people would let him be one.

[walkingworlds-blog]

So, I've seen posts about why LWJ acts the way he does at the start of the novel (and I do agree with them). He's navigating a very tricky situation where WWX is in grave danger and he's trying to be actively supportive despite a refusal on WWX's part to let him do so. In those circumstances, LWJ didn't feel it safe to reveal he knew MXY was WWX all along.

Now, regardless of how one may feel about the execution, I would argue that it was actually the right call for LWJ. Almost certainly not for the reasons LWJ felt it necessary, but I do think WWX wouldn't have taken well to the reveal at the start. It would have complicated things.

The reason? Very simple, at this point WWX is just way too on the defensive around him. His mind is, for the most part, stuck on the events of Nightless City as far as the status of his relationship (or lack-thereof) with LWJ regards. He suspects the man came to hate him by the end.

The chances were that Lan WangJi’s opinion of him was the same as everyone else’s—being overly wanton and not virtuous enough, it would have been only a matter of time before he caused a disaster. After Wei WuXian betrayed the YunmengJiang Sect and became the YiLing Patriarch, he had a few significant disputes with the Lan Sect, especially during the few months before his death. If Lan WangJi was sure that he was Wei WuXian, they should have already been engaged in a large-scale fight.

EXR, Chapter 12

And, as the story progresses, we actually get to know how a WWX on the defensive behaves. How he would take LWJ's offers for help and concern (including the infamous 'come to Gusu with me') as veiled attacks when tension ran high between them. He's so convinced at this point the other man possibly hates him, why would he take his support at face's value now when he didn't before in similar circumstances?

As MXY, while WWX tries to escape multiple times, it's not because he doubts LWJ's good intentions but because he's scared of being discovered as WWX. That's how MXY adds a barrier that keeps WWX from misconstruing LWJ's intent to help him. And that's why this little charade is important: LWJ stubbornly stays by his side to protect him from JC, he allows WWX to use his money as he pleases, he tolerates him all kinds of misdemeanors…

He's so thoughtful and helpful, WWX is all "if I didn't know better, I would say LWJ had some emotional entanglement with MXY!" And well, in a way he's not totally off the mark...

As he had expected, he could take anything from Lan WangJi if he wanted to, without the other becoming dissatisfied at all. If it wasn’t that he had a tiny bit of knowledge about Lan WangJi’s personal integrity and how good HanGuang-Jun’s reputation was, he almost doubted that Lan WangJi and Mo XuanYu had been involved in some helpless, chaotic entanglement of a relationship.

EXR, Chapter 20

By the time LWJ reveals he has known all along, he has given his actions time to speak for themselves. There's no room for WWX to fear LWJ grew to hate him anymore, that dragging him back to Cloud Recesses was intended as a form of punishment or keeping an eye on him is surveillance.

That narrative has been dismantled before it could take root.

LWJ only takes his chance to reveal the truth when WWX, by willingly returning to him, shows it's fine to do so. Just how well WWX takes to the news is proof it worked wonderfully.

Also, I want to make this very clear: I'm not saying WWX has problems with the idea of accepting help itself. He doesn't. That said, he wasn't going to go along with an offer that, from his perspective, is most likely not intended as help. That's the misunderstanding that the whole charade is indirectly clearing! Maybe LWJ would have been able to explain himself this time, thanks to years of hindsight, but letting his actions speak for themselves is the much smarter approach when they have a background of failed communication about this specific topic. Clear the air first, basically.

To me, it's so important to remember that, at the point the novel starts, trusting the wrong person could have had catastrophic consequences for WWX. If he had any reason to suspect he's in genuine and immediate danger, why would he allow anyone to drag him to Cloud Recesses?

Once LWJ proves himself trustworthy? Thats's not a problem anymore! But, while WWX has always had faith in LWJ's morals (hence why as MXY he's trying to escape but not desperate about it), at the start of his second life WWX doesn't trust LWJ to have his best interests in mind.

[randomness-is-my-order]

another thing that is simply amazing about wei wuxian is that he doesn’t give a fuck about hoarding the knowledge he attains. in the cultivation world where clans jealously hold their resources close and have techniques unique to their families because progress is meant for them and theirs–wei wuxian utterly breaks the mould with his inventions. the products of his genius are spread far and wide and his way of doing things is disseminated within the cultivation society as crucial pieces of information. the spirit attraction flag and the compass are used not only by the clans but also the rogues–the bottom most people in their hierarchy. all of them benefit from wei wuxian’s knowlege in a way that the clans are simply incapable of replicating because they would never allow their own methods to leave the boundaries of their clans. and when wei wuxian is back, he takes to teaching instantly and has no qualms against sharing both his experiences and hard-earned wisdom with the juniors and i think it’s important to note that he has literally no affiliation to them prior to meeting them, except jin ling. he doesn’t know sizhui is a-yuan, he just knows they’re lans and later the boys he leads at yi city belong to several different clans–clans that were responsible for his own death and the death of the wen remnants, mind you. but wei wuxian would never make the children bear the sins of their forefathers, of course, just that painting the background helps in understanding how open and willing wei wuxian is about sharing his knowledge with others. it’s very lovely, really. the cultivation society only took from wei wuxian but he only ever gave them back.

[morelostthanwintermoon]

Forever entranced by the love between Wei Wuxian and Jiang Yanli, because why not!!

You are telling me that Wei Wuxian killed Jin Zixuan, JYL's husband, and her first instinct when she sees her brother is that he ran away too fast, she didn't get a chance to look at him, see him properly. Not once did she doubt his intentions, not once did she chastise him for his actions, all those feelings were just foreign to her. Her first sentence is not asking Wei Wuxian why did you kill my husband, it's really just why did you run away so fast, why did you run away from me- your shijie.

Like people don't get it, but when I first read MDZS, this interaction shocked me so much. Because I wasn't planning on it, just like Wei Wuxian- I too thought that JYL would be furious with him, I thought that she too like the rest would discard wwx from her life, or atleast ask him to justify his actions. Never in my life did I expect her to have such a simple request, such a tender almost desperate plea- to just not run away from her, to just give her enough time to look at him once.

She just had her child and lost her husband, but didn't even think once before giving up her life for her brother. Loving Wei Wuxian was instinctual to her, coursed through her veins, woven into her very being. She saw him as a starving child- one petrified of dogs, wearing shoes a bit too big, a child born with a smiling look and strove to protect that smile even if the cost was her life. Like Wei Wuxian, she also embodied the Jiang sect's motto at her core. To love so purely is truly to attempt the impossible.

It's honestly such a sacred reading experience when you see character interactions like this- something I know I will carry in my heart for a very long time, use it to warm myself up on some cold dark days.

[symphonyofsilence]

I'm never getting over the symbolism of Jin Guangyao's coffin being sealed under the weight of Meng Shi's fallen statue! As if His fate had already been sealed by his mother's profession from the beginning and no matter how high he climbed it would always come to this!

And finally, he got crushed and buried under the weight that had been on him all his life. When all he ever wanted to do was to cherish his mother. He built a temple for her and made a statue of her as a god but in the end, he ended up in Meng Shi's coffin sealed by Meng Shi's statue, in what was once the brothel in which they both were abused.

[lgbtlunaverse]

Fanon likes to portray Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji as being jealous of each other because they fear wei wuxian will choose one of them over the other. Which is ignoring the fact that at least in novel canon Jiang Cheng did not even fucking know wangxian ever got along let alone that lwj was in love with wwx until at the very end of the story (in cql canon he does go through a wangxian phase early on and gets very confused by their "breakup" during wwx's sunshot era) and that Lan Wangji is mostly filled with loathing towards both himself and Jiang Cheng for 'abandoning' Wei Wuxian and not being able to save him.

It also ignores the much bigger point that both Lan Wangji and Jiang Cheng are actually jealous of Wen Ning. And why wouldn't they be? That is who Wei Wuxian chose in his first life. He left the Jiang, told Lan Wangji to fuck off no he is not coming to gusu with you, and spent his days with his little-brother-shaped corpse bestie on his mountain in yiling. And then when he came back he immediately called him up the second he could string together more than two notes on a flute. Wen Ning is the real competition. (And he's winning)

[thatswhatsushesaid]

i think a lot of mdzs fans, especially those of the novel canon, would benefit from revisiting the source material to re-familiarize themselves with just how terrifyingly powerful, and unpredictable, and dangerous wei wuxian actually was, both during the sunshot campaign and leading up to the first burial mounds siege. he was not just some rule-breaking scamp starting a farming co-op with some little guys in the burial mounds. lots of people were frightened of him and his power, and with very good reason.

---

this post has been added to my dreamwidth meta archive here: https://thatswhatsushewrote.dreamwidth.org/1646.html

[thejhambs]

none of you understand the core theme of MDZS, because it tackles a fundamentally unpleasant subject. How debt is coercive, abusive, and corrodes a relationship, even if it might seem like it makes people tied to you. There's a reason that WWX's love confession contains a disclaimer about how his love for LWJ is not because he is indebted to him. There's a reason LWJ does not confess, or push WWX for a relationship. WWX is hypersensitive to the debts he owes, whether to the Jiangs, to the Wens, or even to Jin Ling. LWJ does not want a relationship where WWX feels the need to repay him. Thus, "no sorries, or thank yous between us".

Honestly, the reason a lot of people don't understand this theme is because they are stuck on the idea that WWX owes someone something, anything, they think his sensitivity to debt is something to be encouraged. But, it's not a good thing, and it eats away at him, bit by bit. That's the story of his first life. LWJ is his reward, essentially, and represents freedom from debt, a love that does not contain the subtle and corrosive coercion of debt

[lurkinginnernarrator]

I think Lan Jingyi is important. Specifically in what he represents: In the Cloud Recesses Study Arc we see how stolid the Lan Sect is, and with Lan Wangji's whipping we see how blinded the Lan Sect can be by its own ideals that it forsakes the morality those ideals represent.

When we see Lan Wangji in WWX'S second life we see the change Lan Wangji has initiated in his own clan.

That change is embodied in the one Lan Jingyi.

He's loud, brash, emotive, unfiltered and sometimes rude, all of which are anathema to the Lan Clan's sacred ideals of comportment and image. While Lan Jingyi does get punished for infractions it should be noted that he's never dissuaded from his own nature. There is no alienation of Lan Jingyi from his clan. Lan Jingyi is fully Lan, we don't ever see him excluded and we don't see his relationship to his clan in any interpretable as estranged.

What does that tell us?

It tells us that the Lan Sect is changing. If we went purely on the Lan Sect we see in years prior it would not be surprising to see a character such as Lan Jingyi continually disparaged for his anathemic nature, looked down upon and excluded for his differences and punished for his 'undesirable traits'.

We do not see Lan Jingyi's passion being trained or beaten out of him. Instead, we see that the Lan Sect, especially through Lan Wangji's teachings and reforms, are doing their best to model Morality and Righteousness.

The flourishing existence of Lan Jingyi is a testament to the emendation of Lan Sect values; true righteousness being valued over the appearance of it, benevolence in action instead of in name. Mercy. Grace.

Lan Jingyi is the product of Lan Wangji's reforms and trials.

We see Lan Wangji suffer for his innate passion, punished for it by the hands of his own sect. But we also know Lan Jingyi never will.

Lan Jingyi is a sign of growth.

[icyolive]

When did WWX fall in love--before he died, or after he was resurrected?

I propose a third option: both are true.

I'm very firmly in the camp of WWX being head over heels pretty much right from the start, but that ignores a lot of the emotional growth between the two of them after his resurrection. On the other hand, calling that growth "falling in love" ignores his obvious feelings right from the start, and also just doesn't seem like what's going on. His thoughts and feelings about LWJ don't really change all that much.

But here's what does change: WWX starts thinking about himself.

He starts putting himself and his needs into the equation. He goes from seeing LWJ as a trustworthy and good paragon of virtue to seeing him as someone he personally trusts. From objectively the most handsome person in existence to someone he personally really wants to sleep with finds handsome.

So it's not that he fell in love after resurrection--he loved LWJ right from the start--but also he did fall in love after resurrection, because that's when he started thinking about LWJ as someone he could be with. Not that he didn't want to be with him before; instead, he didn't have a concept of personally wanting (being able to want, being allowed to want, being allowed to have) anyone at all.

[muqingapologist]

i think it’s interesting how people often characterize lan wangji’s perspective of wei wuxian during and after the yiling laozi arc like “free my man, he did nothing wrong.” but to me, i feel like this is just selling short his character and his devotion to wwx. the way i see it, when wei wuxian is at his worst and in the years after when wwx comes back, lan wangji isn’t condoning his actions of that era. it’s more like, “i know you were trying to do the right thing, and things spiraled out of control, and i failed to help you back then, and i won’t fail you again.” it’s not wei wuxian’s actions that lan wangji is so defensive of but his intentions. even if lwj didn’t know at the time (and even when he comes back, at first) why wwx chose the ghostly path and gave up righteous cultivation, he has an unshakeable faith in wwx’s moral code, that wwx will do what he feels is right. or at least, doing what he thinks he needs to do to survive. this doesn’t necessarily mean that lan zhan thinks what wwx did as his mental state eroded WAS right. we see this so many times when lan zhan tries to help him, hoping that wwx will return to gusu with him. it’s not until it’s too late, when wwx is truly breaking down, that he understands that that wasn’t the right way to help wwx. the right way is to just be there for him, which is what he does when wwx returns. letting wwx make his own decisions while showing him that there is still someone who believes in him. imo this is much more meaningful than the other interpretation that i see a lot that i mentioned above. it’s about being there for wei wuxian even if he does make the wrong decisions because at the end of the day he knows that wwx, at his core, has good intentions.

[heartbeats-exe]

Jiang Cheng is the picture of “I knew from the moment I met you that I’d spend a lifetime forgiving you.”

Like—start with the dogs. The only gift his father ever gave him, and Jiang Cheng gave them away. Why? Because Wei Wuxian was scared of them. That’s it. No resistance. No conflict. Just: oh, you’re afraid? They’re gone.

That is the blueprint. That is the foundational dynamic. That is the relationship.

His father resents him, prefers his shixiong. His mother tears him down for not being his shixiong. His sister, bless her, loves both of them—but it’s Wei Wuxian who gets the hand on the shoulder, the soft words, the shared wine. And yet. Jiang Cheng never once chooses bitterness over devotion.

He loves him. That’s the tragedy. That’s the rot. Because he never stops.

Wei Wuxian gets dragged into the Burial Mounds and comes back fundamentally altered, and Jiang Cheng still believes in him. Still gives him room to return. Still duels him instead of executing him outright, still spares him even when the sect is watching. Still tells Jin Ling to be kind to him. Still keeps Chenqing in perfect condition, like a grave he refuses to let crumble. Even when Wei Wuxian’s choices leave him hollowed out. Even when all he has left is silence. He still carries him.

And the thing is—Jiang Cheng’s sacrifices are quiet. He never says them. But we know. We know that when he was captured by the Wens, he let himself be caught. On purpose. Because if he didn’t distract them, Wei Wuxian would’ve died.

We know that when Wei Wuxian said, “I can fix this,” Jiang Cheng believed him with his whole heart. And when Wei Wuxian smiled that soft, golden smile, and said “Don’t worry,” Jiang Cheng didn’t. Because when your entire world is falling apart, and your brilliant, impossible shixiong tells you he has a plan—you believe him. That’s what love is.

And when he disappeared? When he died?

Jiang Cheng never believed it.

He said there was no proof. But it always read like something else to me. Like: “I’d know if he was gone. I’d feel it. He’s part of me. I would know.”

This man spent years believing he murdered the person he loved most in the world. And he still couldn’t bring himself to throw the flute away.

Tell me that’s not love. Tell me that’s not the worst kind. The kind that doesn’t die even when it should.

[tea-cat-arts]

Sometimes I wonder what Jiang Cheng could've become if his parents didn't instill a mix of "crippling fear of failure" and "impossibly high standards" in him. Cuz like, his dad was holding him to the vague standard of being as good as wwx, his mom yelling at him whenever he goofed around like wwx, and then both of them expressed disappointment when he's less successful than wwx. The thing both of them seem to ignore though is that wwx got where he is entirely because he had the freedom to fuck around and find out- he trained tirelessly because he made training fun for himself, he was innovative as a cultivators because he experimented and persisted through failures, and he was able to act in line with the Jiang clan moto because his actions had less political pull than members of the main family. Jiang Cheng on the other hand- if he fucked around he got told to "stop stooping to the level of servants." If his achievements were lesser than wwx's, he got either dismissed by his dad or yelled at by his mom to try harder. And if he picked fights with the Wens, they'd have an excuse to destroy his clan. Like ya- no shit that'd create an adult who's terrified of failure.

The kite game serves as such a good metaphor/embodiment of this set back- with Jiang Cheng never being able to shoot as far as Wei Wuxian because he pulls back and shoots closer the second he misses.

And its sad too because he's shown to be pretty brilliant when he's in "fuck it, we ball" mode. Like, when he's not freezing up, he manages to pull off things like rebuilding his entire clan from the ground up, leading armies and taking back territories from the Wens, and I'm fairly sure he's the only character we see counter the Lan music cultivation techniques (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that last one. Also feel free to add any of the other cool shit he did that I'm blanking on at the moment, cuz I know I'm forgetting something).

That being said- even with his anxiety, he's still one of the top cultivators. Imagine what a force of nature he'd be if he could sustain "fuck it we ball" mode

[morelostthanwintermoon]

Wei Wuxian being empathetic to the dead is just so much important to me, it's maddening. Because it is such rotten work but he does it with so much love. People romanticise empathy in theory so much, but Wei Wuxian shows us how difficult it is to actually practice the same in real life.

The fierce corpses or the Burial Mounds are the dumping grounds of MDZS world. It is basically the entirety of cultivation world's negativity, hatred, pain and trauma - dumped in one place. The dark shadows- which society keeps running away from, trying their hardest to ignore it's existence. But Wei Wuxian doesn't do that. He spends time with them, listens to them, embraces them, shows them kindness. His empathy isn't in theory, isn't like a cobweb which crumbles with a mere touch, his empathy is merged with active love- which is dirty, bloody, gritty, but which is able to create a home out of the Burial Mounds and leads to the formation of Demonic Cultivation.

He showed us how difficult yet vital it is to show kindness to the people you want to turn your eyes away from, because it is too painful and ugly to look at their suffering, their decay, their abuse, to see humanity in those who are shunned, feared or deemed unclean. His love was so deeply radical.