#Lancelot and Guinevere are about to start having an affair...

[oldtvandcomics]

How the HELL am I reading a comic where they are putting King Arthur against DRACULA of all people, AND IT IS STILL THE EXACT SAME OLD STORY?!

People should be banned from using the Grail Quest and the Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere love triangle in their stories until, I don’t know, they have completed a quiz proving that they actually know other parts of the mythos too, or something.

[floatyflowers]

Arthurian Legends | Dark Platonic King Arthur Pandragon x Daughter Reader x Dark Platonic Various

You are the twin of Mordred, and the child of King Arthur and Morgan Le Fay.

As you grew up, your mother mother shielded you, by placing protection spells on you, and also teaching you about healing using magic.

and she filled Mordred's head with hate on Arthur, claiming that he stole her birthright.

Mordred grew up with hatred in his heart towards Arthur, while you refused to hold ill intentions towards your father.

But that didn't stop you and Mordred from being inseparable and bonding as twins.

Whenever you have a suitor, Mordred gets rid of them with the help of his mother.

Morgan pushed you and your twin to reveal that you are his children at the court.

Mordred is quick to object on you coming with him, believing it to be dangerous.

"Mother, keep (Y/n) with you until I take revenge, I don't wish for her to meet the man who abandoned us and stole your throne"

"You and your sister have a connection, separation will only cause destruction"

You, on the other hand, did not want to ruin Arthur's marriage with Guinevere, yet you didn't wish to make your mother sad.

So, you started your journey with your twin.

Mordred made the first appearance by saving the king on a hunting trip, making Arthur knight him therefore he joins the Round Table.

Then Mordred introduces you to the court before announcing that the both of you are the children of the King

Arthur wanted to deny it even if he knew it was true, but when he saw how embarrassed you felt, he confirms it instead.

Later that day, you approach him and Guinevere shyly, stuttering out words of apology.

"I apologise for my brother's behavior and causing disturbance"

Your apology made Arthur obsessed with the idea of protecting you from any harm.

While Guinevere fall in love with the idea of you being her step-daughter.

She didn't have any children of her own, so you being her daughter is a really exciting thought.

Arthur makes sure to spend time with you bringing you on hunting trips with him and the knights of the round table.

He made you a tiara decorated with all types of rare stone gems for you to wear at all times.

Arthur would notice the closeness you have with Mordred which makes him decide to intask his son with many responsibilities so, you could spend more time with him instead of your twin.

"Your brother is occupied with his new responsibilities, allow to accompany you instead"

Merlin would grant you any wish you want, being more soft with you unlike how he is with Arthur when he was your age.

The old wizard also tries to advice your father to not keep you and your twin apart as it would might cause havoc.

But Arthur chose to ignore the warning, letting platonic obsession with you win.

On the other hand, Guinevere would take you with her on walks in the early morning.

Insisting you call her mother while she picks out expensive fabrics for the new dresses she ordered to be made for you.

"I wish for you to call me mother and to consider as such from now on"

"But, I have a mother, my queen"

"She is not here now, is she? I'm the wife of your father, so I'm your legitimate mother"

Mordred realizing that you are drafting away from him, your twin decided to cause chaos.

He exposed Guinevere in front of the whole court for having an affair with Lancelot, only to have his father cast her aside and order her death.

You try to reason with Arthur to spare her but seeing your love for her only made the king insistent on excuting.

The whole affair scandal caused a civil war.

Arthur decided to leave the kingdom and you in the care of Mordred while he went into war against Lancelot.

You helped Guinevere escape before she could get executed.

While Mordred seized the opportunity to ursurp the throne and become a king, allowing Morgan into the castle so all of you three could live together.

But you weren't pleased, taking a horse, you go to inform Arthur about what has occurred in his absence, making decide to return to reclaim the throne.

Thinking that Arthur has kidnapped and held you captive, Mordred almost went insane about how you, his twin, the other part of him, isn't by his side.

So, he went with an army to the battle of Camlann against Arthur's army.

The father and son stabbed each other severely, so both could die.

The end.

Actually, no, that's not the end.

Remember when your mother taught you about healing?

Well, it came to use, as you healed both Mordred and Arthur.

You made them both agree on peace, with Mordred returning the throne to your father, while Arthur forgives Mordred and open a new page.

Arthur banished Morgan, so she doesn't influence you and your twin ever again.

You, Arthur, and Mordred live in peace as a happy family.

A/n: I decided to give it a happy ending because I feel like it would be nice for a change.

[drconstellation]

Once and Future Royalty

Just, stay with me on this one. I know its going to look crazy at the start, but trust me, I know where I'm going.

It all started with the 537AD scene in Wessex in the opening montage of "Hard Times," S1E3. Yeah, the one where Aziraphale is supposed to be a knight of the Round Table and Crowley is role-playing the Black Knight, and they are both so super-squeaky shiny clean - not a speck of dirt or mud on them. wtf! It looks out of place, unrealistic, and was bugging the crap out of me, like a stone in your shoe. It just didn't fit. I mean, why put a myth, a legend, into that sequence? Oh, OK, yeah, the preceding stories from the Bible, like the Garden of Eden and the Flood, aren't "myths" as well, you say? Hmm. In the context of the Good Omens AU, being a biblical based story, they belong there far more than the legend of King Arthur.

King Arthur, who supposedly united Britain under his rule during the late 5th century and early 6th century, was shown to have the divine right to rule by wielding the mighty sword Excalibur. Some stories tell of Arthur pulling Excalibur from a stone. Some tell of him receiving Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake. Either way, it was bestowed upon him by divine grace. Despite his triumph in battle, he left no heirs, as his queen, the fair Guinevere, was barren. She had a long-running love affair with the greatest knight of the court, Sir Lancelot, but despite this being an open secret in court Arthur would not put her aside. The knights of the Round Table in the court of Camelot were near-paragons of Christian virtue, and there are many tales of their search for the Holy Grail, the cup from the Last Supper of Jesus Christ.

In the end, mortally wounded in battle, Arthur was taken away for healing, and never seen again. It was said he would return when Britain was at it most direst hour to save the day once more. A "messianic" return.

The Once and Future King.

Now, I'm no Arthurian novice; I drank up all of T. H. White as a teenager, read the Dark is Rising multiple times, Marion Zimmer Bradley's interpretation and what ever else I could lay my hands on for a good couple of decades. And there is LOTS of King Arthur stuff around. You are not left wanting for anything new to read or consume. And I'll bet there are a fair few of you also out there who know a quite bit about the legend as well. Oh, and I can't tell you how many times I have watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I still walk around quoting it day-to-day, like the good little Gen-Xer I am, having grown up on that stuff. So I really should have listened to my intuition when bits of Monty Python kept popping up in my brain in response to other parts of GO I was thinking about. (Staaay, I said, stay with me here....)

I kept chewing away furiously on the Wessex problem, growling in feral frustration at it, but also kept reading and sorting out some other ideas and metas at the same time. Eventually I found the key in a tiny little post, about a small detail in the 1941 Blitz episode S2E4, of all places. I wanted to slap myself with how much was staring me in the face so obviously once the door opened. And the damn beauty of it is, that I already written about some it, out of context, without knowing the why.

OK. Where to start this journey...hmmm, back to Monty Python, because, guess what - the Wessex scene is actually riffing off one the more famous skits out the the Holy Grail. The scene is a masterpiece of political satire, from start to finish, but the relevant part here is this sequence:

In case you missed the salient points: Arthur claims he is king by divine providence, because he was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake. Dennis the peasant protests this waterlogged method of determination, mentioning ponds, watery tarts and a moistened... well, I hope you get the idea about where this is going.

Meanwhile, in 537AD, Wessex, as the mist swirls around them:

"It is a bit damp," complains a shiny silver Aziraphale.

Yes, Excalibur would be a bit damp after it emerged from the Lake. (vidavalor! Get your mind out of the gutter! I'm trying to have a serious discussion here! Please! And I wasn't even going to go anywhere near what the sword in the stone is really meant to be referring to...it's not even relevant to the discussion at hand, I swear! Well, there is going to be sexual relations mentioned but - oh, never mind...)

Right. Where were we. Lets leave those super-clean elite pretendy knights to swim off through the swirling mist back to their dry homes to write and file reports to head office, along with Patsy and the hired Igors, and Dennis can keep playing in his lovely muddy filth after he finishes protesting being repressed by the divinely-deluded Arthur. I've got a bit more to say about what Aziraphale and Crowley might represent here later but you need some more context first, so lets move on. I just needed to show you the first bit so you can see the Arthurian theme stretches across both S1 and S2, and will likely appear in S3 as well. More about that towards the end.

Ah, before I forget...another ref from the Holy Grail we need to cover:

This GIF, unfortunately, doesn't have the full exchange between the peasants, which is this:

P1: "Who's that then?" P2: "I don't know. Must be a king." P1: "How can you tell?" P2: "Because he doesn't have any shit on him."

Ah. Er. OH!

Have you made the connection?

Who have I been emphasizing as being unusually clean in their Arthurian setting? That's right, Aziraphale and Crowley.

What's this implying? That they are royalty. Celestial royalty. Maybe not kings, but how about princes? You know how we've been discussing whether Crowley was a once at least an Archangel, and there is even a hint that he was a fallen prince of Heaven given during the replay of Gabriel's trial? (Not the prince, but a prince - a seraphim) And that Aziraphale may have once been Raphael, and may be again in the future? Once and future royalty. To me it adds weight to the past discussion, and helps to explain the assumed authority expressed in these two scenes here: On the left, Aziraphale takes control inside the book shop as the angels and demons argue who is going to punish Gabriel and Beelzebub (finally found it after several months!) and on the right, Crowley is shouting at the assembling demons in the street that they are "out of order."

Onward, Patsy. (I hope you're still with me.)

1941, the Blitz part 2, minisode.

We've found Excalibur! On to Camelot!

[Edit note: I've added a few GIFs and screen shots into the sequence of parallels above because I was thinking over a few things since I posted and felt this actually sat better. To try and explain, as they don't exactly match as I would like, in the Holy Grail movie, King Arthur and the knights he has gathered rock up at the foot of Camelot and gaze up in awe at it. "Camelot!" Arthur declares to the party. "Camelot!" Galahad echoes in excitement. And a third "Camelot!" comes from Lancelot. What do we get in GO? Aziraphale leaps out of the Bentley (Crowley's black horse) and declares "The theater! Sophocles! Shakespeare!" I swear, if you put the two side by side, they would match. It's not just a reminder of how much time Aziraphale has seen pass by, or that we are seeing a tragedy play out. But damn it, I could so just see Aziraphale attending a Sophocles performance in Athens back in the day...]

Camelot was King Arthur's castle and home of his court. In S2 of GO the Windmill Theater is established as our court of Camelot where our 1941 Blitz-era Arthurian drama is to play out, involving Furfur and the zombies.

Yes, poor old Furfur. Two's company, three's a crowd, as they say. Now we know we're in Camelot, we need to be reminded of the central tragedy of the Arthurian story, that ultimately led to the golden kingdom's fall. Lady Guinevere, Arthur's queen, famously loved Sir Lancelot, and the two were passionate lovers. It was essentially a love-triangle at the top, with Arthur being jilted, but he wouldn't/couldn't discard his queen. Where do we see this playing out in 1941?

Furfur, pleased with himself for catching an angel and a demon in the act of consorting together (with the help of the zombies,) barges into the backstage dressing room, and confronts the lovers with their crime. But who is playing who in the Arthurian love triangle? I would say Furfur is clearly caught in the role of Arthur here. Consider the following exchange:

FURFUR: Hmm, well, well, well… What have we here? AZIRAPHALE: Sorry, have we met? FURFUR: Oh, no, you never had the pleasure, but… we have, haven't we? CROWLEY: Have we? FURFUR: What do you mean "have we?" You know we have. We were in the same legion. Just before the Fall. Doing dubious battle on the plains of Heaven. Remember? CROWLEY: I remember going into battle, I don't remember being there with you. Sorry. FURFUR: I was right next to you. We did loads together. You use to jump on me back, little monkey in the waistcoat. Anyway, whether you do or whether you don't, it doesn't matter. I'm here to inform you, as a representative of the Higher Powers of Hell, that you, Crowley, are in breach of the Infernal Code. Consulting and collaborating with an angel, Fell the Marvelous, aka… [opens book] Azirapalala. Azirapapap. Aziphapalala. AZIRAPHALE: [annoyed] Aziraphale

Furfur claims a past intimate relationship with Crowley, which Crowley spurns offhandedly. Crowley is playing Guinevere here, jilting Furfur/Arthur, which leaves the demon-smiting Aziraphale standing in for the handsome hero Lancelot (with his French connections, no less), and doesn't he make us weak at the knees when he drops his voice an octave in dominating disgust. (Is it suddenly getting hot in here...? Phew!)

Interestingly, looking back in S1 at 537AD Wessex, though, I would say that Crowley was Lancelot as the Black Knight, a role that Lancelot sometimes played in the legends, and Aziraphale would then be the fair maiden Guinevere. It certainly plays into Crowley's long term role of playing the knight who comes to the rescue of Aziraphale's princess in distress. Excalibur was no where in sight, perhaps still beneath the waters of the lake. Nor Arthur. Perhaps it was still too early in the story then...

I had originally suggested in my very first post that Furfur was given a stag as his demon avatar because he was wearing horns for being cuckolded by Crowley. But I wasn't quite thinking about it in context with the Arthurian legend! The stag is also often associated with royalty, plus while wandering around the medieval bestiary website that someone linked to, it interestingly notes that the enemy of the snake is the stag and the stork (Shax's avatar.) Ah ha!

So how can we extrapolate this knowledge into a possible appearance of the Arthurian theme in S3?

Will we see the love triangle of Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot come back into play and cause more chaos? I'm wondering if it might have something to do with the Fall.

Or will our lovers bring down a divinely-appointed ruler via their committed behind-the-back defiance of expected propriety?

Will Excalibur appear from beneath the waters, perhaps in another form, to declare a new king?

Could it even be a combination Jesus/Arthur, King of the World, returned? And they turn out to be a very naughty boy, disappearing into the night clubs of Times Square, New York, and that's how they lose him? (Social media viral sensation, anyone?)

I wouldn't be half-surprised if Greasy Johnson's name turns out to be Arthur, actually.

And no, I haven't forgotten that Adam's dad was named Arthur as well.

Bring on S3!

**Bonus**

If you've made it this far and you're thinking:

Let me leave you with this last connection.

In the back stage change room, remember Furfur delivers these lines:

FURFUR: What do you mean "have we?" You know we have. We were in the same legion. Just before the Fall. Doing dubious battle on the plains of Heaven. Remember?

On the first level, he is referring the Great War in the Good Omens AU.

On the second level, Furfur is paraphrasing Milton's Paradise Lost.

On a third level, I can (and will in a future meta) connect this back to the training initiative paintball fight at Tadfield Manor in S1.

And even deeper on a fourth level, if you do know the Holy Grail movie well, you'll remember there is an odd little subplot in it, that infers that the whole King Arthur and his knights thing is merely a full-on violent cosplay that is murderously rampaging across the countryside in the present day with the police in hot pursuit. It's a strange juxtaposition between reality and dream, and you aren't quite sure what it is real or not. The ending is bizarrely and abruptly surreal as the two story lines collide in the heat of battle, as the police turn up and arrest the combatants. A bit like this:

[quinoascreams]

LANCELOT AND GUINEVERE they make me cry

I think I’ll use this app to yap about stuff i like which includes arthurian legends 😍😍🥰😘😘😘😘🥰😍😍🥰😘😘 so uh yeah…. starting off with the couple ever, lancelot and guinevere

tw highly inaccurate i guess i haven’t really read any arthurian literatures because THEYRE SO HARD TO FIND FOR SOME REASON??? so all my knowledge is from sketchy and really bad websites from like 2014

In the glorious stories of King Arthur (one that I have personally loved and read by Robert Lancelyn Green) are the knights of the Round Table.

Why a round table you may ask? Compared to its traditional long, rectangular tables, where the spot you are seated in determines your worth of sitting near enough to its leader, the round table remains seamlessly equal — to show King Arthur’s dismissal of hierarchy. Everyone is valued the same as everyone else.

In this very Round Table exists many heroic stories of knights, but nothing is more well known and famous as the quest for the Holy Grail, the very cup Jesus Christ drank from during the Last Supper. The cup that, no matter how worthy and strong Sir Lancelot of the Round Table may be, was unable to attain. Only his son, Sir Galahad and the knight Sir Percival could attain anything out of its search and findings. For Sir Lancelot was an adulterer, a traitor of God, for he loved Queen Guinevere, King Arthur’s wife and Queen of Camelot. Truly, but unfortunately, not worthy of the Holy Grail.

I will be going over the love story of Sir Lancelot and Queen Guinevere, which ultimately led to King Arthur’s rule's demise. However, it is important to note that their love story did not pre-exist from the very beginnings of forming the stories of the knights of the Round Table. Chrétien de Troyes, a French poet, wrote the first known love affair between Lancelot and Guinevere in the very book: Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart.

My biggest resource for this story is the very book that Chrétien de Troyes has written, but it is fine if readers are more accustomed to an altered version. There is no exact origin as to how the stories of King Arthur were created, different versions have been bound to spread out all over the world since the beginning of its time anyway.

The story of how everything began starts with the abduction of Queen Guinevere. Lord Meleagant, a villain in Arthurian legends, was so hopelessly in love with Guinevere that he felt betrayed when she married King Arthur. He snatches her away from the castles of Camelot and King Arthur sends Sir Gawain, a knight of the Round Table, to go and rescue her.

On the way there, Gawain meets Lancelot, who just so happens to have ridden his horse to death. He then asks Gawain for a horse to find the Queen. When given one, Lancelot proceeds to furiously speed after Guinevere. Gawain finally caught up to him to find that Lancelot had also ridden his new horse to exhaustion, as it had also died.

Something important to mention here is that the stories of King Arthur were curated during the Medieval Period, a time when transportation was extremely scarce, and a horse was one of the best options out there. It’s pretty easy to assume that anybody who owned horses back then took very good care of them, and understood their value and importance. For Lancelot to ride two of them to death in such a hurry for the Queen, it must have been a shock to the readers of that time, helping them understand Lancelot’s desperation due to his dismissal of the horses’ lives.

Now that Lancelot had no more modes of transportation, what was he to do now? Luckily, he encounters a cart-driving dwarf, who just so happens to see where Lord Meleagant took Queen Guinevere.

But the dwarf will only tell him where the Queen had gone if Lancelot rides in the back of the cart, in which the dwarf will take him in. Not a bad deal right? He gets a free ride to save the Queen.

Except, it was considered incredibly dishonourable if a knight were to ride in a cart.

I’ve tried searching for a reason, and I’m not 100% sure as to why it is considered as such, but an understandable reason may be because it was usually criminals that rode in the back of the carts, being either sent in or out of cells. It would be incredibly humiliating for a heroic knight, especially one who is as great and renowned as Lancelot, to ride in it.

He hesitates.

Then he jumps in.

The dwarf moves the cart along, and Gawain follows with his horse. They read an area with two bridges, one that is underwater and one that is made up of swordblades. Both reluctant, the dwarf assures that this is the only way to get to Queen Guinevere, so Gawain takes the underwater bridge and Lancelot takes the bridge of sword blades

At this point, it is pretty obvious that Lancelot is in love with Guinevere, as Lancelot reaches where Meleagant and Guinevere are located and bests him in a duel. Meleagant begs for mercy, calling for a proper duel in King Arthur’s court, where Queen Guinevere’s hand will be officially decided by whoever wins.

In a duel, you either lose or win. Whoever draws first blood is deemed the winner. However, another way to lose is if you do not show up to the duel at all. Then you are automatically deemed the losing party.

That was Meleagant’s plan.

He captures Lancelot and locks him up in a tower so that he will not show up for the upcoming duel.

However, one of the servants, who was giving Lancelot food, fell hopelessly in love with him. She could not bear to look at him locked up and frees him from the tower on the day of the duel with the wish of a kiss (which he does). He gallops away to the duel as the servant girl sobs in her arms, for she knows the kiss was not out of love but for obligation.

His heart will always be left for Queen Guinevere. Only for her.

Lord Meleagant boasts about Lancelot being a coward to show up for a simple duel. As if it were a gag, Sir Lancelot shows up, perfectly timed, and not late at all. In a blind fury, he kills Meleagant in the duel and Queen Guinevere is safe in the hands of King Arthur once more.

At first, Guinevere is unaware of Lancelot’s loyalty and efforts, stating that she will ‘not show gratitude at all.”

But he waits. He remains patient. He could wait forever for her.

Guinevere eventually succumbed to Lancelot and his charms and soon they began a love affair, leading to the fall of the Round Table.

I’m not completely sure how their love affair was discovered, but rumours of their blooming love started to spread. King Arthur remained unmoving. He trusted Lancelot too much to doubt both his wife and his daring knight.

One day, a bunch of knights (Sir Mordred included — he is important hereafter, an Arthurian villain) stormed into Guinevere’s bed chambers, where they found Lancelot in her bed.

Lancelot was able to get away safely, but Guinevere was not. She was condemned to death for adultery.

Lancelot staged a rescue mission for Guinevere, killing a bunch of knights in the process, including Sir Gawain, the very man who helped Lancelot in finding Queen Guinevere during her rescue, ending up making enemies of each other.

I have been made to believe that Lancelot does not actually manage to save Guinevere. But Arthur had put a pause of her execution. He is written as a kind, merciful king and did not have the heart to kill her in the first place. Instead, he reluctantly declares war on Lancelot (from the advice of Mordred) and goes out in search of Lancelot, who has now went into hiding.

At this point, Mordred attempts to take the place of Arthur, declaring that the Great King has died and attempts to marry Guinevere.

King Arthur finds out and they both go into a great duel (the Battle of Cammlan) where they both eventually die, ending Arthur’s reign of Camelot.

Lancelot soon finds out about Guinevere’s whereabouts and learns that she has joined a nunnery, where she intends to live lust-free, repenting of her sins that had led to the unfortunate demise of her husband.

Sir Lancelot declares that he will do so as well, as a simple, humble man named Lancelot. With no ‘Sir’ in front of it. Just Lancelot. He becomes a monk and he and Guinevere continue this form of life until the very end.

They lived different lives, died at different times, and were buried in different places.

That concludes the dooming love affair of Sir Lancelot of the Round Table and Queen Guinevere of Camelot.

okay im going to be completely honest i have never read knight of the cart. or any chretien romance like ag all 😭😭 im such a fake fan but i cannot find a physical english copy ANYWHERE and all the free audiobooks are in french. seriously considering learning french for this…

but i do plan on reading all of chretien’s arthurian romances soon, plus all the arthurian related books including the hyper religious sacraments that are the first known texts that mention arthur. yeah. im that obsessed sorur

im also planning to do a deep dive of lancelot and guinevere’s relatyonship soon because chretien actually never finished knight of the cart and someone else did it for him and its like so interesting how he perceive courtly romance

ok thansk bye guys

[lefresne]

Hi! Sorry for the silly questions but i would like to ask you ,what are yoy fave relationships in Arthuriana and wht^ (romantic ,platonic ,bitter enemies ,familial etch)

Have a Good day !

Hi what a fun and delightful question !! Honestly if it’s done well I can pretty much get behind anything but I do have a few relationships that really make me go crazy in the best way:

Arthur and Morgan: people who don’t understand why a woman who seemed hellbent on destroying Arthur might also be the one to comfort him as he dies just. don’t get it. Like that’s her baby brother!!!you can spend your life scheming against him and coming up with silly goofy plans to undermine him but at the end of the day that is your baby brother. When Malory has her say « dear brother why have you tarried so long away from me? » HELP???

Morgan and Guinevere: just. Fascinating relationship. In the vulgate cycle Morgan starts to suspect that Guinevere is having an affair with lancelot when she spots his ring because Morgan has the SAME RING (with minor differences) and it was also a gift from Guinevere. I’m speechless. these monks really said that morgan and guinevere exchanged love tokens at one point. « We were girls together » or however it goes. like. so true. they were girls together!!!

Gawain and Guinevere: Camelot mean girls. Agents of chaos. Having little parties and gossiping. Guinevere riding out alone to meet him in the knight of the two swords and embracing him and covering his face with kisses because she is so happy to see him…thats (platonic) love baybee!

Gawain and Lancelot: i believe they loved each other. Like I really do. I’d go as far as to call them soulmates but in a sort of fundamental way I can’t quite explain. Gawain wants to be a woman so he can be with lancelot! Gawain asks Lancelot to kill him! Gawain is DEVOTED to that man. Very compelling.

Lancelot and Guinevere: fascinated by all iterations of their relationship. It’s so complex and interesting. Like the power dynamic is so rich, especially when you think of Lancelot’s ambiguous relationship with gender. They do love each other, even when it’s difficult and it looks like they don’t. Their final parting in Malory is SO painful to read.

I think what these all have in common is that they make me reflect on the nature of love and how complicated and interesting love is, in all its forms!

Thank you for your question <3 and if anyone want to tell me all about their fave arthurian relationships they can <3

(Edit: I also forgot to put Perceval and his mother on the list!! I am obsessed with them)

[queer-ragnelle]

I wonder if there's a way to arrange the timeline so that you can have both the "Mordred is the son of Arthur and Morgause" and the "Galahad is the son of Lancelot and Elaine-as-Guinevere" plot points. Like, the Lancelot thing has to happen after Arthur is king, and the Mordred thing before, but both sons must be (young) adults by the time Arthur's reign ends, right? So they can't be born ten years apart.

Maybe it works if you push the whole "Arthur's reign begins / he marries Gwen / she has an affair" situation into 2-3 years, but I don't want them to all be teenagers for that whole story…

(I also like to imagine Arthur as older than Lance and Gwen, but I could give that up if I have to.)

If Mordred and Galahad have that parallel of being children of rape / deception, and they both have some weird prophecy hanging over their head, that makes a pretty cool dynamic. Especially given that they deal with it in basically opposite ways.

Hi!

Of course you can! I did it in my books. You can shift everything around however much you need to in order to tell the story you have in mind.

You’re not beholden to any “canon.” I love the Vulgate. She’s like a sister to me<3 You all know that. But the Vulgate timeline is not only extreme, but inconsistent. At the start, Mordred is older than Lancelot. Straight up a whole entire child before Lancelot is even conceived, which would also make Gawain a solid 20+ years older than Lancelot, and Galahad another 26-27years younger than that which is the age Lancelot sired him at in the Vulgate. So is Gawain in his 60s on Grail Quest? How old by the battle at Camlann? Dang, then Arthur must be a geezer…Whoa! Wild implications when you follow that through to the end. But then, somewhere in the middle of Prose Lancelot, before Mordred has learned of his true parentage, he travels around with Lancelot as a squire and has not yet been knighted. Lancelot there acts as a mentor figure to him, so their ages have reversed, and reflect what our modern viewpoint has come to consider “canon.”

So as I said, you can absolutely alter the timeline in any way imaginable if it benefits the story you want to tell. It’s going to take a lot of work. My suggestion is to pick a character as a focal point, Arthur perhaps (I used Gawain), set an age for them, and then determine approximately where you want everyone else to fall around them. You don’t have to stay specific in your actual writing, but knowing family member birth order and what life stages everyone is at will give you an idea of character dynamics and roles in society. (IE: Mordred and Galahad knighted around the same time, both approximately 18-21, while Lancelot and Gawain act as mentors/role models to them both, having been knighted about twice as long.)

It’s a lot of work, but once you get it all plotted out, it’ll make writing consistently much easier. Good luck!

[acourtofthought]

I saw an Elriel talking about how Elain and Azriel are going to have the best story because their "forbidden love" creates tension and obstacles, and they listed some other famous forbidden love couples. I don't remember/are familiar with all of the couples they mentioned, but some of them were: Romeo & Juliet, Antony and Cleopatra, Guinevere and Lancelot. They also brought up Titanic and Shakespeare in Love.

I get what they were trying to say. Forbidden love can make for an unforgettable and beautiful story, I'm not denying that, but looking at their list and seeing the couples I was familiar with, I could only think of one thing: Death.

Romeo & Juliet = dead

Antony and Cleopatra = dead

Guinevere and Lancelot = separated/try to atone for their affair/dead

Jack and Rose (Titanic) = Jack's dead

William and Viola (Shakespeare in love) = Viola is forced to marry someone else, and she and William are separated

Again, can forbidden love be fantastic? Yes. Can forbidden love have a happy ending? Yes. Does forbidden love typically have a happy ending? Not in my experience.

So, what exactly do Elriels want from this "forbidden love"? Apparently, they want it to start with Azriel defying Rhys and both he and Elain sneaking around, hiding and lying to their families because no one wants them to be together/happy. And then they want it to end, how? With Elain rejecting the bond, even though it's canon that she'd still feel it forever? With Lucien dying, even though death still doesn't make the bond go away and Elain will still feel it forever?

If Elriel happens and they do get the forbidden love treatment, it's not going to be a happily ever after. Either way, the ending is going to be bittersweet because Azriel and Elain are possibly going to damage their relationships with their families due to all the lying and sneaking around or Elain is going to end up with Azriel, forever feeling the bond.

Also, let's look at SJMs version of Forbidden Love: Dorian and Celaena - she broke it off because she knew a forbidden love was the wrong path to head down. Chaol and Celaena - They lasted for all of a week or so after he pined for her for months? Dorian and Sorscha - She ended up beheaded because of their forbidden love. The LoA and Helion - she ended up being physically abused by Beron and belittled because of her affair. Jesminda and Lucien - another beheading! We have a pattern here! Also, forbidden love tropes are usually because a parent or the one who holds their leash doesn't approve. Forbidden love where you're hiding it from the friends and family who actually care for you? There's nothing forbidden about that. That is just two people who haven't learned the art of communication and that makes them look foolish rather than romantic.

[adhd-merlin]

Ah someone else who has discovered the joys of Camelot (1967) a movie that I am completely normal about. Have you watched it? Because the delivery of the lines is everything and if you need someone to talk to about it I am, once again, completely normal about it. The scene where Lancelot and Arthur first meet?? A masterpiece in sharing a single braincell. And don't even get me started on the way Guenevere first treats Lancelot "have you jousted with humility lately". It's unapologetically at the top of my Arthuriana movie rank list and has gotten me to reread The Once and Future King

I have not watched the film yet!

I've been listening to the original cast recording on Spotify but, most importantly, I've read the book of the original Broadway production (1960 libretto) and I love it?? It's a delightful little read on its own, even without having watched the musical. (I want other people to read it please it's very funny I promise)

I guess the 1967 film script won't be identical to the libretto but I assume it's fairly similar.

The scene where Lancelot meets Arthur was hilarious it made me laugh out loud. Lancelot utter puzzlement ("Gone a-Maying, Your Majesty??"). Arthur's sudden self-consciousness.

And don't even get me started on the way Guenevere first treats Lancelot "have you jousted with humility lately"

I know!! Lancelot's grating self-righteousness coupled with his complete lack of self-awareness is so funny.

And I loved the gradual tone shift. It starts out so silly and the tragedy sneaks up on you — I thought Guinevere and Lancelot's affair might be played for laughs with an oblivious Arthur but no, it turns out he's fully aware of what's going on and he's forced to watch it unfold because he's powerless to stop it? and he loves them both and doesn't want any harm to come to them even as they betray him??

(He continues talking, looking from one to the other, feverishly — painfully) — Excuse me??

and King Pellinore is hilarious, he enters the scene wearing a monocle followed by a little mongrel named Horrid and talking like a character from a P. G. Wodehouse's novel. Extremely validating because when I read that chapter in Le Morte d'Arthur in which King Pellinore first makes an appearance my first question was "is he meant to be this funny?" and the answer from this script is a resounding YES.

I think I might perhaps watch the 1968 stage production first, merely because it's available for free on Youtube (at least in the UK).

I might try hunting for a free streaming link to the 1967 film, though I don't mind renting it if I can't find it.

[jerzwriter]

Rank your favorite LIs within your favorite stories. (i.e., rank the OH lis, BOLAS lis, etc.)

Hey Nonny,

Thank you for the ask! I want to preface that these are my opinions, and others have different opinions, and that's all right. I'll do this for all the Choices stories I've read (and remember! lol). But I'll start with the 2 multiple LI stories I write for first.

Open Heart

Tobias Carrick - I know he wasn't an LI, but it's not my fault PB is stupid! lol

Ethan Ramsey

Bryce Lahela

Jackie Varma

Raf Aveiro

Wake the Dead

Eli SIpes

Troy Hassan

Shannon Fox

Angel Savage

Sledge

More Below

A Courtesan of Rome

Cassius (from what I remember lol)

Sabina

Syphax (in fairness, I never completed the route with him)

Julius Ceasar (hated the fucker, but he was hot as hell lol)

Desire & Decorum

Ernest Sinclaire I really like all the other LIs, but I'm eternally devoted to Ernest. lol I've never been able to pick anyone else.

Foreign Affairs

Blaine Hayes (M and F Versions)

Tatum Mendoza

Ayna Seth

The Freshman Series

Zig Ortega (eternally devoted to Zig! lol)

Becca Davenport

James Ashton

Chris Powell

Kaitlin Liao

Guinevere

Tie. I loved Arthur and Lancelot, I can't pick! lol

Hot Couture

Marco Di Vincenzo

Luz Estrada

Hazel Nguyen

Travis McKenzie (really not my type...)

LoveHacks

Marc Collins

Ben Park

Leah Myers

My Two First Loves

Noah Harris (Bad Boy/Default) LOVE Noah

Ava Lawrence (Best Friend/Default)

Mason Jennings (Childhood Crush/Default) Really didn't care for him.

Perfect Match

Damian Nazario

Alana Kusuma (sorry, she's hot) Didn't romance others. Sloane irritated me, and Hayden... they're a robot. lol

Queen B

Ian Kingsley (Sorry, not sorry!) Didn't romance others, Zoey was too friend zoned for me, and Poppy, absofreakingloutely NOT.

Red Carpet Diaries * I'm only about 5 chapters in - so this is subject to change.

Matt Rodriguez Really don't know enough about the rest just yet. Teja's stupid hat ruined her for me.

The Royal Romance

Drake Walker (Sorry, curmudgeons with a soft spot for LI are my kryptonite)

Liam Rys

Hana Lee (Love her, but to quote Hozier, she's too sweet for me)

Maxwell Beaumont (he's totally friend-zoned for me)

Rules of Engagement

(I barely remember this story, but from what I recall:)

William (Business Guy)

Leo (Prince)

Dean (Bartender)

The Unexpected Heiress

John Somerset

Gemma Montjoy

Hugh Crawford

Veil of Secrets *

(I am 11 chapters in, but pretty confident with my choices here:)

Grant Emerson

Naomi Silverhawk

Flynn O'Malley

Kate O'Malley

I started BOLAS but didn't get far. Based on what I read, I would say:

Mal Volari

Nia Elarious

I'm too human-centric for Tyril or Imtura, and I never met the others.

Thanks for the ask, Nonny!

[cogentranting]

A. Dang dude. Maybe you should care a little bit more about losing your wife.

B. Certainly Aggravayne and Modred are somewhat to blame for their plot to expose Lancelot and Guinevere's affair. But also. Lancelot and Guinevere might be kinda to blame too. Just maybe.

C. Merlin literally told you this would happen at the very start and at the time you were insistent that it HAD to be Guinevere, now all of a sudden it's 'I don't even care about Guinevere, I could have any queen'

[badbedforbedding]

The funny thing about everyone clutching their pearls about Elia is that no one seems to actually stop and think about how she really felt about Rhaegar, before and after him eloping with Lyanna. It's all self-projection. Like, there's a real chance she might have thought: "Cool, that might mean I'll get to go back to Dorne."

I agree with you there anon, there's a lot of self projection into this elia/rhaegar debacle, and it's a shame that people reduced her to this mute, spineless character with no thoughts of her own who was used by everyone from start to finish.

I actually want Elia to have desires, ambitions and plans that go beyong being a good mother or a dutiful wife and queen consort. That's why I like the "theory" that she might have had a lover.

I don't know if I'm the only one but that quote by Varys while talking to Tyrion always sounded strange:

Varys gave him a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a . . . certain name . . . when they came for her."

So I like to imagine Elia had a love affair with the great Sword of the Morning, Sir Arthur Dayne à la Guinevere/Lancelot (speculations from my head). Not because I want to minimize/justify Rhaegar "cheating on her" but because I prefer to think she had something hers. Like something that wasn't planned for her without her consent or done to her forcebly. I want Elia to be more than a victim.

And yes, I think she could have had her own feelings about what happened at harrenhal and it may differ alot from what people project onto her.

[oldtvandcomics]

Hot take, but Hollywood has been going waaaaay too soft on the Lancelot/Guinevere affair. The general convention has kind of become that they silently pine after each other for most of the movie, then one of them has enough and starts pressuring the other to do something. They kiss ONCE, are caught immediately, and Arthur is very upset about his feelings being hurt. Which is inaccurate for multiple reasons, but mainly:

These two HAVE BEEN SLEEPING TOGETHER. FOR YEARS. And infidelity is still scandalous today, but back in the Middle Ages, it was a crime punishable by death. I don't think that modern movie audiences quite get the full experience, if you focus in on feeeelings instead of talking about the sex. (Also, Arthur, WTF do you mean "you having feelings for Lancelot is a betrayal and personal attack, you can only love one man"?! YOU'RE NOBILITY. Romantic feelings were NEVER a part of this marriage.)

What I am trying to say is, I want these movies to up their game. If you already have to make a movie about the love affair causing the fall of Camelot, then I want to watch Lancelot and Guinevere sneak around everybody's backs doing hardcore BDSM and getting away with it, for years.

This would have a bunch of benefits:

It increases the tabooness of the situation to somewhere easier to understand,

It would be a good reminder of the part of chivalric romances where a knight is supposed to serve his lady with everything he has. Courtly love has become too much of an aesthetic to be of any meaning. Making Lancelot Guinevere's sub could be very symbolic for that whole culture, if written right,

Based on the way US-Americans act on the Internet, more stories with people having healthy, consensual sex definitely would do them some good.

You could arguably adding in friends who know what they're doing and keeping the secret, which: Nice!

It would be really funny and unexpected

[lefresne]

So let me get this straight: the reason why the Affair between Lancelot and Guinevere causes the fall of Camelot, is because almost half the knights were loyal to Lancelot than to Arthur, and that Lancelot was, in some ways, the shadow leader of the Round Table? When Lancelot kills Gawain's sibling, People took sides?

I’d start by saying that there is no one ‘Fall of Camelot tm’. To say that there is would be as disingenuous as attempting to stabilise a broad, complex, heterogenous body of work that evolved and grew over 500+ years. Each text will have its own interpretation of the circumstances surrounding the political collapse of the Arthurian realm. It’s complicated, and sometimes seems to run counter to our modern understanding of canonicity, but that’s alright! The interpretation below is based on Malory, as Malory, perhaps influenced by the English political landscape of the time, particularly stresses the importance of political factions all vying for influence over the king and queen, as well as the tensions that can arise between affective and political communities.

Reading Malory, it becomes apparent that Logres is dominated by four major factions: Gawain (Orkney and Lothian), Lancelot (Benoic / France), Tristan (Cornwall), Lamorak (Wales). I understand ‘faction’ as meaning a community bound by both kinship and feudal ties. As is consistent with 15th century politics, the individuals at court are the ‘heads’ of often much larger political networks that stretch across Britain.

What is so interesting about Malory is that the text shifts the blame for the collapse of Camelot away from the adulterous affair between Lancelot and Guinevere and rather towards the political ramifications thereof, which themselves then become symptomatic of problems inherent to late medieval feudalism. And this is not to say that this is the sole cause for the end of Camelot, either. Reading (and re-reading) Malory sometimes feels like plucking at a huge ball of yarn for different narrative threads: depending on how you might pick it up, you might blame Uther, who instigates a pattern of criminal sexual behaviour which then becomes compounded with each successive generation (going from adultery (Uther) to adultery and incest (Arthur) to adultery and incest and patricide (Mordred)), or Morgan, for stealing that damn scabbard (not going to lie, I’m a lot less convinced by this one lol), or the Grail for like, existing and revealing the chivalric system’s inherent weaknesses I guess.

 The Welsh and Scottish factions are at odds already following the death of Lot, and these tensions continue to mount throughout the narrative, until the Welsh faction has been largely annihilated by Gawain and his followers. The Scottish faction feels ‘entitled’ to a certain standing at court due to their close kinship with Arthur, and resents anything or anyone that might jeopardise this privileged position( see, for example, the brothers complaining that ‘whom that we hate kynge Arthure lovyth, and whom that we love he hatyth’). Gawain’s friendship with Lancelot keeps the wider faction in check for a long while, however. The Queen, meanwhile, has established her own political network, which overlaps with Lancelot’s. Although Lancelot’s faction has an ambivalent attitude towards Guinevere, it is established that this relationship is mutually beneficial. The Queen ensures Lancelot and his kin’s high standing at court, and Lancelot and his kin will defend her if needed.

After the Grail Quest, the Arthurian political landscape is in shambles. The knights have dispersed, Gawain has murdered God knows how many of his co-workers, and an entire kin group has been decimated. The situation in Cornwall is not too good either, Tristan has been killed, along with a bunch of his allies, and Marc hates Arthur. This exacerbates pre-existing tensions, and remaining allies of Tristan are ‘absorbed’ into Lancelot’s faction, because Lancelot and Tristan had been friends. We quickly learn that Agravaine is jealous of Lancelot’s proximity to the queen and of his political influence. The problem is not the adultery per se, rather the queen’s public displays of favouritism. Lancelot and Guinevere are described as taking walks together and conversing privately – this reference to the walking is important because this was at the time an important part of the queenly schedule, during which courtiers would be allowed to approach and petition her. Agravaine resents Lancelot for ‘monopolising’ the queen’s attention, which he perceives as a slight on his kin group. The Scottish faction now understand that if Lancelot falls, then their group will, by default, rise. Guinevere senses this threat and multiplies public displays of favour towards Gawain and his kin, but this goes disastrously - an ally of Lamorak uses a dinner held in Gawain’s honour to attempt to poison him.  Although Gawain vehemently defends Guinevere, his faction are willing to believe that she would go as far as to poison Gawain for, presumably, Lancelot’s sake. Mador, who is related to Gawain, turning against the queen also serves to prefigure the text’s final conflict, in which Lancelot’s and Gawain’s factions turn against each other. Once again, Lancelot’s faction must intervene to restore order, Nenyve reveals the true poisoner and Lancelot, who had been missing, miraculously returns to save the queen from the pyre. This confirms the extent to which Guinevere and Arthur (who has to beg Bors to fight for his wife) are politically reliant on Lancelot. Agravaine, understanding that his earlier complaint about the queen’s political favouritism has had approximately zero impact, now begins to additionally charge her with adultery (note that Agravaine was with Guinevere throughout the knight of the cart episode).

Gawain, who is friends with both Lancelot and Guinevere, continues to defend them. As he says: not only has Lancelot come to their aid numerous times, ‘if there aryse warre and wrake betwyxte sir Launcelot as us, wyte you well, brothir, there woll many kynges and grete lordis holde with sir Launcelot’. When they ambush the queen, Malory specifies that all the knights present are ‘of Scotlonde, other ellis of sir Gawaynes kynne, other well-wyllers to his brothir’. 

The deaths of Gaheris and Gareth as they guard the queen’s pyre cause a heartbroken Gawain to turn against Lancelot. Now that the affective bonds have broken, all out war breaks out, and Lancelot is forced into exile, taking with him a significant number of knights who are still loyal to him. Arthur, goaded by Gawain, chases after him, leaving the country unattended so that Mordred can seize power. New factions form - those loyal to Mordred and those loyal to Arthur. Civil war breaks out.

The deaths of Gareth and Gaheris do not force knights to take sides, the sides have always existed, but they had been previously kept ‘in check’ by Gawain’s affection for Lancelot, Guinevere, and Arthur. Arthur’s status is never really challenged in Malory, neither Lancelot nor Gawain ever think of overthrowing him, the question is always one of influence. It doesn't matter that the king is largely effaced and at times ineffectual because he is the king. Mordred seizing power in Arthur’s absence is seen as the ultimate betrayal and signals, within the political world Malory has outlined, absolute moral corruption. TLDR: the deaths of Gareth and Gaheris cause affective bonds to break and to therefore reveal the fragmented structure of the king’s court and the tenuous nature of peace. I wouldn’t call Lancelot a ‘shadow leader’ (although I do think that’s a very interesting idea!) because Malory never questions Arthur’s kingship. The text is largely about influence over the king rather than an outright overthrowing of the king. Malory condemns Mordred for seizing power, and condemns the barons for siding with him. But I also think that Malory’s approach to politics and community is a lot more nuanced than just Lancelot = good Gawain = bad. The text reflects a community in crisis and under intense pressure that is trying its best to survive.

[to-many-towered-camelot]

So...you're into arthuriana...

What's one work you'd recommend as a good starting place?

Not going chronologically like I did 😂

Hmmm but a little more seriously, it does depend on a few things, like how much you know about the most common story beats, how much exposure to medieval lit you’ve had already, and also just what you’re keen on in Arthuriana 🙂

[Edit - TL;DR: In general, Tennyson’s Idylls of the King. For medieval lit, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (or, if you’re like “who ?? is Gawain ??” then the Alliterative Morte Arthure]

If you’re brand squeaky new to Arthuriana, the best advice I’ve seen is to actually start with a movie (I’d say start with one of the older ones, as more modern ones are all about subverting the existing narratives, which isn’t as helpful for this purpose). Doing this is just about getting familiar with common tropes, characters, adventures etc because tbh there’s no official cannon to learn and if you tried to mush together all the different traditions to make a coherent narrative….you couldn’t, some things directly contradict each other.

I’d also really recommend the Myths and Legends podcast’s King Arthur series for this same intro approach! This series goes into more depth and breadth than any one movie can. This intro approach can also help you figure out what interests you - and then you can use that interest (e.g., a character, topic, trope, or event) as a pathway through Arthuriana, jumping from text to text, if that’s a method that sounds good to you (the Camelot Project can help you find texts related to your interest). Or you can go by country, or by chronology, or by tradition or text type, or do a survey of the most famous texts and then double back for the more obscure. There are lots of different ways of doing things 🙂. 

For written material, as long as you’re okay not starting with medieval lit, I’d actually recommend Alfred Tennyson’s Idylls of the King. It provides a great sweep of those main story beats but isn’t as long as, say, Sir Thomas Malory’s Le Morte D’Arthur (this is a 15th century Middle English text that is very famous and often people’s first go-to – but it’s very long and more than a bit intimidating). Once you move on from Tennyson, you’ll notice that his attitudes towards certain characters and events don’t match up to other texts – never fear! That’s Arthuriana in a nutshell, where every author has a different favourite character and does something slightly – or majorly – different with the stories. Tennyson is Victorian-era and his vision of Arthuriana has really shaped modern popular understanding.

If you’re interested in starting with medieval lit, I would recommend Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (author unknown, called the ‘Gawain Poet’ or the ‘Pearl Poet’ after one of their other stories). This is a late-14th century Middle English poem and it has a very self-contained narrative, so you don’t need to be familiar with other stories to still enjoy it. Plus it’s a gorgeous piece of literature by itself. That being said, if this is your first exposure to medieval lit, it might not be aaaas enjoyable as it could be? I do think it’s fine as-is, but a lot of the narrative tension relies on notions of honour and virtue that are very much of the time and place. But if you feel like you have a handle on those ideas already, or if you find a version with a solid introduction, I’d say definitely go for it!

Or else, I think ???? it was Ellian (@/ pendraegon) who once suggested starting with Chrétien de Troyes’ Yvain, the Knight of the Lion for a more intro-level exploration of honour and chivalry. Unlike the others I’ve mentioned above, he is a French author and was writing in the late 12th century. He is one of the first Arthurian romance writers (romance here meaning something different than our modern understanding) and is the originator of the Lancelot / Guinevere love affair. Chrétien’s other stories are good as well but less suitable for an intro, except maaaaaybe Lancelot, the Knight of the Cart if you’re a big Lancelot fan (or I guess Perceval if you’re keen on the Grail Quest, but that one – while it is the origin of the Grail – is unfinished. Queue a bunch of continuations that were written by other people to finish this story, who added the “holy” part to the Holy Grail).

Or if you want an intro that is more about Arthur, I’d recommend the Alliterative Morte Arthure which is a Middle English poem from ~1400. It – like its buddy the Green Knight above – is written in alliterative verse. This one covers the latter part of Arthur’s life – so not his birth or the sword in the stone, but rather his fight with Rome, his betrayal by Mordred, etc. This one is inspired more by the chronicle tradition (while the Green Knight is more inspired by the romance tradition). This means that it has more in common with Geoffrey of Monmouth’s The History of the Kings of Britain (c. 1136, written in Latin) than it does with Chretien. But it's way less dry and boring than the chronicles lol, especially Simon Armitage’s translation.

There are shorter stories that would be good little tasters that I could recommend, but they’re not as easy to find in your library or second-hand bookstore. You should check out Lou / Jack’s (@/ gringolet) intro post and Ellian’s (@ / pendraegon) post as well. They have links to PDFs of shorter stories and also links to good translations of the medieval lit I’ve suggested above. These posts touch on traditions from places that aren't England or France, which I high-key recommend diving into when you feel ready. They also give a bit of an intro to genre and form, if you’re keen on that 😊

I'll also send you to a post of mine that pulls together free audio versions of some Arthurian stories / texts both medieval and modern.

Finally, if you've set yourself the (big! and fun!) project of getting into Arthuriana, I’d recommend digging up a copy of Alan Lupack’s The Oxford Guide to Arthurian Literature and Legend, either from your library or for cheap somewhere if that’s an option for you. There’s a bazillion different traditions and even more stories that can all be labelled as "Arthuriana", so knowing how what you’re reading ties into the bigger picture can be really helpful (just search the text you're reading in the index of Lupack’s book, you’ll likely need to use its untranslated name).

I hope there's something in this post that interests you and helps you get started. Let me know if you have questions about any of this - and enjoy! 🏰 🗡️ 🐉

[misc-obeyme]

So I was thinking about some of those anon asks I got the other day about the boys in history and the possibility of Greek mythological figures being involved... and I was thinking about if maybe our characters were involved in starting stories and legends... which made me think about the King Arthur legends. And while it's certainly funny to think that one or more of the demon brothers somehow created that legend to begin with, I just couldn't stop thinking about a King Arthur AU.

So now I'm just imagining Diavolo as King Arthur, Lucifer as Lancelot, and MC as a gender neutral Guinevere. All of Lucifer's brothers are various Knights of the Round Table. Solomon is Merlin. I mean, it would be so funny.

Now obviously the real Arthur legends end tragically what with the whole Mordred situation. But I would just leave all that out because I really just find the idea of a Knights of the Round Table AU absolutely hilarious.

The other big part of this story is the infamous love triangle with Arthur and Guinevere being married while Lancelot and Guinevere have an affair and such. But I would be much more interested in a Diavolo/MC/Lucifer polycule situation.

Really it's about the aesthetics. Give me the characters in a medieval setting, riding horses and wearing armor, but still acting modern like they do in the games because that's the situation I would find the most entertaining.

Anyway, I just had to get that out of my head lol.

[roundtabletea]

Is Lancelot a queer icon? A character analysis!

Hello noble readers, and buckle up for a long post. This time, we’ll be talking about Lancelot du Lake–arguably one of the most famous knights of the Round Table. Normally when we talk about Lancelot, we’re talking about his devout, somewhat insane love affair with Guinevere. But instead of that, we’re going to discuss a particular story in which Lancelot goes through some queering events. This post is about Sir Thomas Malory’s “The Noble Tale of Sir Launcelot du Lake”, and all the ways in which Lancelot is characterized as a queer character.

First up, we have to talk about the scene with the four queens in this story. If you’re unfamiliar with it, this is the part where Lancelot is just sleeping in the woods (???) and these four beautiful queens basically kidnap him, bring him to a castle chamber, and force him to take one of them as his lover. That’s not the weirdest thing to happen in medieval literature (looking at you, Wheel of Fortune), but the weirder part is Lancelot’s response. He says that he would rather die than choose one of them. Refusing women when they offer themselves to him is significant; he’s the most famous knight in the land but, time after time, he keeps on saying that he doesn’t want to take a wife or lover. An important side note here is that his relationship with Guinevere has not been established yet–in this story, he’s a single man! Lancelot choosing to reject all four of those beautiful, powerful queens is an important queer aspect of his character; he is alone and unattached even though he has the opportunity not to be.

This leads into our next point–Lancelot explaining why he doesn’t want a wife or even a paramour. He first says that all the rumors about him shacking up with Guinevere are completely false. Then, he adamantly states that a wife would only hold him back from participating in tournaments, jousts, battles, and adventures. He also says that having a paramour just feels wrong to him and would only make him a worse knight. Basically, Lancelot says a lot of not-so-nice things about women here; they’ll only hold him back, he’s stronger without them, etc. But if we combine that with his refusal earlier, the queer aspects of his character start to add up. He will actively refuse women over and over again because, unlike basically every other knight out there, he doesn’t see the need to have his own wife. It leaves him in a weird position; he isn’t acting like any of the other knights we so often read about–he isn’t even acting like the version of himself we’re familiar with from other iterations of Arthurian stories. In those, he is devoted to Guinevere; he fights battles for her, gives her presents, and constantly has to prove his love. Here, he’s a lone knight, wandering from battle to battle–his more significant interactions are with fellow knights, leaving women behind entirely.

This leads into our final point about Lancelot’s queering in this story; his interactions with male characters! Towards the beginning of the story, Lancelot seeks shelter for the night in a random pavilion (basically a tent). Unbeknownst to him, the pavilion belongs to Sir Belleus, who misrecognizes Lancelot as his lady and starts to kiss him as Lancelot is sleeping! This one is just plain obvious; Lancelot was both misgendered and was kissed by another man. If that’s not a sign of literary queering, then I don’t know what is, so let’s move on. Later, Lancelot spends the night with Sir Kay–while their sharing of a bed may seem like queering, this was actually commonly done and totally nonsexual, so we’ll skip it. The more important part of this glorified sleepover is that Lancelot switches his armor, shield, and horse with Kay. These are all essential to masculinity, so sharing armor is a somewhat intimate thing. Based on what we've already seen with Lancelot, this level of trust and intimacy is something he doesn’t want with women and can thus only have with men.

So, we’ve talked about the queer aspects of Lancelot’s character in this story. He rejects women who offer themselves to him, hates the idea of being bound to a wife, and seems to have his closest relationships and interactions with men. It’s certainly different from the Guinevere-obsessed Lancelot we’re used to. Lancelot comes off as eccentric and even weird in this story–we didn’t even mention the part where he strips down to his underwear to climb up a tree. But since, in many other Arthurian stories, a knight’s masculinity seems to be supported by his lady, this separates Lancelot from others. In this story, at least, his gender construction doesn’t stay strictly within the binary and his motives and actions become harder to understand.

First image: Thomas Mackenzie, 1920

Second image: Miniature of Lancelot and Guinevere, north-eastern France or Flanders (St Omer or Tournai), 1316