#Israel-Palestine is in the situation of having two indigenous peoples

[fairuzfan]

AMAZING article about what it means to participate in anti-Zionism work both online and in person.

If your anti-zionism does not in any way acknowledge that it is a way of thought and practice led by and for Palestinians, then you need to reevaluate your "anti-zionism" label.

Some passages that felt especially relevant to tumblr:

If we accept, as those with even the most rudimentary understanding of history do, that zionism is an ongoing process of settler-colonialism, then the undoing of zionism requires anti-zionism, which should be understood as a process of decolonisation. Anti-zionism as a decolonial ideology then becomes rightly situated as an indigenous liberation movement. The resulting implication is two-fold. First, decolonial organising requires that we extract ourselves from the limitations of existing structures of power and knowledge and imagine a new, just world. Second, this understanding clarifies that the caretakers of anti-zionist thought are indigenous communities resisting colonial erasure, and it is from this analysis that the strategies, modes, and goals of decolonial praxis should flow. In simpler terms: Palestinians committed to decolonisation, not Western-based NGOs, are the primary authors of anti-zionist thought. We write this as a Palestinian and a Palestinian-American who live and work in Palestine, and have seen the impact of so-called ‘Western values’ and how the centring of the ‘human rights’ paradigm disrupts real decolonial efforts in Palestine and abroad. This is carried out in favour of maintaining the status quo and gaining proximity to power, using our slogans emptied of Palestinian historical analysis.

Anti-zionist organising is not a new notion, but until now the use of the term in organising circles has been mired with misunderstandings, vague definitions, or minimised outright. Some have incorrectly described anti-zionism as amounting to activities or thought limited to critiques of the present Israeli government – this is a dangerous misrepresentation. Understanding anti-zionism as decolonisation requires the articulation of a political movement with material, articulated goals: the restitution of ancestral territories and upholding the inviolable principle of indigenous repatriation and through the right of return, coupled with the deconstruction of zionist structures and the reconstitution of governing frameworks that are conceived, directed, and implemented by Palestinians.  Anti-zionism illuminates the necessity to return power to the indigenous community and the need for frameworks of justice and accountability for the settler communities that have waged a bloody, unrelenting hundred-year war on the people of Palestine. It means that anti-zionism is much more than a slogan. 

[...]

While our collective imaginations have not fully articulated what a liberated and decolonised Palestine looks like, the rough contours have been laid out repeatedly. Ask any Palestinian refugee displaced from Haifa, the lands of Sheikh Muwannis, or Deir Yassin – they will tell that a decolonised Palestine is, at a minimum, the right of Palestinians’ return to an autonomous political unit from the river to the sea. When self-proclaimed ‘anti-zionists’ use rhetoric like ‘Israel-Palestine’ – or worse, ‘Palestine-Israel’ – we wonder: where do you think ‘Israel’ exists? On which land does it lay, if not Palestine? This is nothing more than an attempt to legitimise a colonial state; the name you are looking for is Palestine – no hyphen required. At a minimum, anti-zionist formations should cut out language that forces upon Palestinians and non-Palestinian allies the violence of colonial theft. 

[...]

The common choice to centre the Oslo Accords, international humanitarian law, and the human rights paradigm over socio-historical Palestinian realities not only limits our analysis and political interventions; it restricts our imagination of what kind of future Palestinians deserve, sidelining questions of decolonization to convince us that it is the new, bad settlers in the West Bank who are the source of violence. Legitimate settlers, who reside within the bounds of Palestinian geographies stolen in 1948 like Tel Aviv and West Jerusalem, are different within this narrative. Like Breaking the Silence, they can be enlightened by learning the error of colonial violence carried out in service of the bad settlers. They can supposedly even be our solidarity partners – all without having to sacrifice a crumb of colonial privilege or denounce pre-1967 zionist violence in any of its cruel manifestations. As a result of this course of thought, solidarity organisations often showcase particular Israelis – those who renounce state violence in service of the bad settlers and their ongoing colonisation of the West Bank – in roles as professionals and peacemakers, positioning them on an equal intellectual, moral, or class footing with Palestinians. There is no recognition of the inherent imbalance of power between these Israelis and the Palestinians they purport to be in solidarity with – stripping away their settler status. The settler is taken out of the historical-political context which afforded them privileged status on stolen land, and is given the power to delineate the Palestinian experience. This is part of the historical occlusion of the zionist narrative, overlooking the context of settler-colonialism to read the settler as an individual, and omitting their class status as a settler. 

It is essential to note that Palestinians have never rejected Jewish indigeneity in Palestine. However, the liberation movement has differentiated between zionist settlers and Jewish natives. Palestinians have established a clear and rational framework for this distinction, like in the Thawabet, the National Charter of Palestine from 1968. Article 6 states, ‘The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.’ When individuals misread ‘decolonisation’ as ‘the mass killing or expulsion of Jews,’ it is often a reflection of their own entanglement in colonialism or a result of zionist propaganda. Perpetuating this rhetoric is a deliberate misinterpretation of Palestinian thought, which has maintained this position over a century of indigenous organising.  Even after 100 years of enduring ethnic cleansing, whole communities bombed and entire family lines erased, Palestinians have never, as a collective, called for the mass killing of Jews or Israelis. Anti-zionism cannot shy away from employing the historical-political definitions of ‘settler’ and ‘indigenous’ in their discourse to confront ahistorical readings of Palestinian decolonial thought and zionist propaganda. 

[...]

In the context of the United States, the most threatening zionist institutions are the entrenched political parties which function to maintain the status quo of the American empire, not Hillel groups on university campuses or even Christian zionist churches. While the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) engage in forms of violence that suppress Palestinian liberation and must not be minimised, it is crucial to recognise that the most consequential institutions in the context of settler-colonialism are not exclusively Jewish in their orientation or representation: the Republican and Democratic Party in the United States do arguably more to manufacture public consent for the slaughtering of Palestinians than the ADL and AIPAC combined. Even the Progressive Caucus and the majority of ‘The Squad’ are guilty of this.

Leila Shomali and Lara Kilani

[dualdeixis]

[Image description: A poem titled "רַבִּי / رَبِّي" written Friday, November 17, 2023: Rabbī, I cannot praise your deeds. / Rabbī, no weeping moves you. / Rabbī, your justice is wedded to perversion. / Rabbī, your love looks much like your hatred. / Rabbī, the patriarchs have been gilt as idols. / Rabbī, the Temple has been built into a prison. / Rabbī, mixed multitudes have been spat on. / Rabbī, all oneness has been sported with. / Rabbī, ministering angels have been consigned to wailing. / Rabbī, nameless infants have been fed the world’s silence. / Rabbī, your reddened sea has been exiled from shore. / Rabbī, your holy city has been split in two. / But by whom? / Rabbī, shall I say “them” or “us”? / Rabbī, which people is solely yours? / Rabbī, what image is divine alone? / Rabbī, when comes the Hour of Unlocking? / Rabbī, where hides the Place of Its Glory? / Rabbī, why? Answer now. Answer. End image description.]

note 1: as the title implies, "rabbī" may be read as the hebrew word for "a jewish cleric" or the arabic word for "my l_rd" (i.e., g_d).

note 2: this poem is written from an anti-zionist jewish perspective. therefore the question "by whom? / shall i say 'them' or 'us'?" is not meant to dispute palestine as the oppressed party. rather, it is meant to be taken extremely literally, because it is situated in my individual experience: should i—a muslim in the process of converting to judaism, who has been estranged from jewish community and had my conversion delayed because of zionism; who has no personal ties to israel but is nevertheless complicit in its genocidal actions by nature of living in the warmongering USA which uses my household's tax dollars to fund it; who believes that "all israel are responsible for one another" (shevuot 39a)—refer to the oppressors as "them" or "us"?

ways to help palestine:

decolonize palestine (patreon)

samidoun (calendar of worldwide protests)

palestine action

palestine legal

bds movement

e-sims for gaza

more resources

ways to help congo:

list of donations

boycott & donate

ways to help sudan:

list of donations

fundraiser for a refugee family

action against hunger

ways to help armenia:

all for armenia

armenian food bank

artsakh housing fund

armenian assembly of america action center

ways to help other indigenous peoples around you:

learn about whose land you may be living on

[timetravellingkitty]

hiii, yesterday your blog and masterposts was the first time i came across the notion that india is actually colonising kashmir and it should be made a separate country. i was quite confused ngl because this was the first i'd heard of it but i decided to research and look through all the masterposts you linked. read everything on the sources you linked but i'm still kinda confused. before you read ahead, letting you know some things so you don't come out with all claws beared. i am just genuinely curious and trying to have a civil conversation here. i am a firm hater of modi and his whole party and their fucked ideology of hindutva. i think they should all die right the fucking now. but i also know and recognise that hinduism and hindutva are different. the former is a religion and the latter is a political ideology created by v. savarkar. i was born in a hindu family but i am not a religious person and do not practice hindusism. but i also know that because there is right to religion i won't instantly hate someone due to their religion be it hindu or anyone else. this being said hindutvavadis and hindu supremacists should die :) also i wasn't celebrating the strike yesterday and calling for a war on pakistan because that is not a fucking joke and ultimately it is the common people who are going to end up suffering and dying which some people fail to understand. now coming to what i read and why i am confused. point out where you think i went wrong according to you. kashmir has always been a part of india innit? like even before partition this whole landmass that includes kashmir pakistan and bangladesh was what was referred to as india and whose liberation as whole from the british was being fought for in the whole 200 year struggle of independence, right? but then in 1947 again because of politicians and their greed, partition happened and two countries were created aka india and pakistan wherein kashmir was a part of india and pakistan had two parts- east and west which later became bangladesh. so then how is india colonising kashmir when kashmir was always a state of india? (that's like saying india is colonising any other state that's part of it like aren't kashmiris also indian in the same way haryanvis or marathis or tamilians or biharis are indians? they are indian citizens unlike palestinians who are not israeli citizens are are the ones actually being colonised which is why it does not make sense when some people try to compare this situation to that. like there is no ethnic cleansing going on here. like the word genocide doesn't apply here. aren't kashmiris indians themselves?) and then after 1947 and independence, when pakistan waged war on india, they occupied a portion of it which is the pok and when china waged war on india they also occupied a portion. so like obvs now saying pakistan is part of india and usko annex karne ka attempt karna ya uspe kabza karna will be an attempt at colonisation because it is its own separate country. it got liberation alongside india but kashmir ke liye how can you say that because it wasn't like it was an independent country jispe india ne kabza kiya. isn't kashmir a state that is part of india? unlike what israel did to palestine which some people try to compare it too. palestine was its own separate entity before zionists from europe, a whole another continent came and made a country of their own there, kicking out indigenous people. like india itself was colonised by the british who came from outside and kashmir was a part of that very colony. they didn't colonise it separately like they did sri lanka. sri lanka was never a part of india even tho it was colonised by the british at the same time. it was always a separate entity unlike kashmir.

i come to you genuinely curious so i hope you'll answer like that.

rapidly summarising: j&k was a princely state that was given the option of joining india or pakistan when the british left and they chose to remain independent but then a few months later the maharaja was made to sign the instrument of accession when it was under attack and he asked for assistance (which happened after the poonch rebellion against him). nehru promised that a plebiscite would be conducted but it has not happened. when it went up to the UN a referendum calling for pak to withdraw its military presence and for india to keep its military presence to a minimum, which also never happened. the election that took place in 1987 (two years before the insurgency started properly) was rigged by india. the very last maharaja of kashmir was widely despised by his muslim majority subjects because of his policies that impoverished them + his complicity in murdering muslims in jammu. this is only a part of it but it's not fair to them at all

[iamnmbr3]

This isn’t meant as an accusation but after seeing some of your posts I have to ask, are you pro-Israel and if so, why?

Oooh. Definitely a totally in-good-faith ask that isn't at all a (poor) attempt at a gotcha and didn't come in response to me posting about antisemitism. Anon, I don't really know what you mean by being pro-Israel. I've actually been pretty up-front on this blog about my views of issues pertaining to Israel, the situation in Gaza, Palestine, the West Bank, and antisemitism - which are, actually, separate things shockingly, despite what a lot of uneducated people who insert themselves into nuanced discussions seem to believe.

If you check my Israel, Gaza, Palestine, and antisemitism tags I think it's not hard to get an idea of my views. I think antisemitism is bad and should be condemned and that some people try to be antisemitic and then claim they are just being pro-Palestine despite not actually knowing or caring about Palestine at all. I think Netanyahu is a despicable, corrupt wannabe dictator and he and the Israeli Far Right promote terrible, inhumane, and illegal policies that are a danger to the whole region and that will cause more suffering for Palestinian people and for Israelis too and that Netanyahu needs to be removed from power and pay for his crimes (which probably would have happened already if not for the October 7 attack). I think anyone who didn't do everything to get Harris elected despite Trump's obvious embrace of Netanyahu and the Israeli Far Right in contrast to Harris and Biden's very public efforts to work for a ceasefire (which they achieved!) has blood on their hands and is directly responsible for what is happening now under Trump and is an ideological fraud who needs to be held accountable for their actions and the consequences.

I think Hamas is a deplorable and violent terrorist organization and that anyone who actually cares about Gaza would be condemning it since shortly after Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 (a withdrawal that remained in effect till AFTER the October 7 attack) Hamas seized power there and has been brutally oppressing, terrorizing, and murdering Palestinian people in Gaza ever since. I think the terrorist attack in Israel on October 7 was appalling and also unjustified and I don't think rape or torture or murdering babies are ever justified or a form of "resistance." I think Jews are indigenous to Israel as demonstrated by historical and archeological records. I do not support genocide which is what the destruction of an entire country would be and thus think Israel has a right to exist and that anyone who says otherwise is a deplorable bigot. I think harassing random Jews in other countries is just antisemitism and is in no way a valid way to criticize Israel's policies.

I support a two state solution as the only viable long-term path for regional peace and stability. I think many people in the West who claim to care about Palestine couldn't actually tell you the difference between Gaza, the West Bank, Palestine, the PLO and Hamas and thus should stop trying to center themselves and should shut up and stop getting in the way of actual activists' work.

I have been very clear about all of this. And yet often when I post about antisemitism I get "well meaning" asks like this wondering if I "support Israel" and why I would do such a thing.

I've been clear about my views on Israel (which is an entirely different issue than antisemitism) so what these asks REALLY seem to be about is trying to shame me for speaking out about antisemitism and for decrying the narrative used by some antisemites that their antisemitism is really just pro-Palestinian activism, when in reality, it is anything but and they don't see Palestinian people as anything other than a convenient shield for them to use when attacking Jews which is despicable and racist. Palestinian people are human beings who deserve rights, freedom and dignity, not to be used as a tool to help bigots avoid accountability.

[geekthefreakout]

This is important.

It is an important skill to be able to hold two thoughts in your head. Example:

1. Netanyahu is perpetuating a genocide, and protests against him and the actions of the Israeli government are righteous.

2. Anti-Semitic groups have been using these protests to show their ass, and people are right to condemn those people calling for the extermination of Jews in Israel, even if they are couching it in a pro-Palestinian context.

More examples:

1. Jews are indigenous to Palestine and were forced into diaspora.

2. Betty from Brooklyn should not get to kick a Palestinian family from their home of decades or centuries based on who lived there in the Bronze Age.

And

1. The attack on October 7th by Hamas was tragic and infuriating. They are a terrorist organization through and through. The hostages are innocents who deserve to be brought home.

2. Israel has extracted its vengeance in blood from Palestinian civilians who did nothing but try to live. There is no excuse for 10k+ murdered children, for bombed ambulances and food banks, for destroyed homes and schools.

Also

1. Israel is a settler state whose foundation is cracked and whose laws condemn many of its denizens to live as second or third class citizens, as it continues to expand beyond its bounds and have no care for the non-Jewish indigenous peoples it is displacing.

2. Israel has given a home to many Jewish refugees, including thousands of Ethiopian Jews that had to be airlifted to safety.

3. (Weren't expecting this third one, were ya?) In the 40 years since said Ethiopian Jews were liberated, they have faced and STILL face rampant racism in Israel. Their woes were not all solved.

There are many aspects to the travesty in Palestine. You need to be hold these complex thoughts in your head to really get at the situation.

What is NOT complex: genocide is bad, actually, and we shouldn't be enabling it.

Please, PLEASE, make sure that you're not falling victim to the absolutism that so often plagues people who are terminally online, the kind that assumes that if one side is bad the other one must be good, or vice versa.

Do your daily click for Palestine if you haven't today!

[aqlstar]

advice-seeking anon here just wanted to say thank you so much for your thorough and thoughtful responses ❤️

i definitely don’t feel comfortable around the people who excuse or perpetuate antisemitism through their views, but i struggle with how to approach it other than distancing from them because of past experiences. i don’t tend to call out individuals anymore because it feels exhausting and unhelpful when it’s been met with vitriol, willful ignorance, or ridicule. the ignorance is staggering, like i genuinely don’t think that any of them know what they’re talking about or have done any research beyond maybe like instagram infographics/influencers or al jazeera articles and other bs. then they get so deep into this perspective of that being “the truth” or the “right thing” (demonizing Israel and zionists as like “evil colonizers” and “genocide supporters”) that they get pissed off and refute any evidence or disagreement otherwise, and default to the “anti zionism isn’t antisemitism!” excuse whenever being called out for antisemitic rhetoric, tokenizing antizionist Jewish people, etc. as exhausting as it is, i know it would be good to make more of an effort to call people out anyway though, so that i don’t contribute to normalizing or accepting that behavior.

years ago, i totally uncritically bought into a lot of the harmful pro-Palestine beliefs and historic revisionism, because it’s been promoted by a lot of Native American activist groups under the guise of indigenous rights. it wasn’t until truly and openly learning from different perspectives, learning more about history and more about Israel that i could understand how wrong and backwards that is. after the start of the war, i took down and reported antisemitic hate speech on my college campus and also discouraged the formation of an SJP chapter among our student clubs (which thankfully didn’t come to fruition). my yellow ribbon either got snagged or ripped off my bag at some point, so this was also a good reminder for me to get a new one! maybe a yellow ribbon pin will be more durable than an actual ribbon. anyway, sorry for these long messages. i’ll keep looking for ways to be a better ally and hoping for an end to this war soon that sees the hostages returned home and brings lasting peace.

super grateful for everyone like you and all the educators/activists putting the truth out there, with so much courage, grace, and kindness in the face of all the ignorance and hate

Anon you are giving me hope for the future 🥹

Yes- there is a very well organized disinformation campaign working on influencing people our age and especially marginalized groups that Israel should be destroyed. Most people don’t/can’t get passed the knee jerk negative reaction to Israel to look into the history or the reality of the situation.

Instead of engaging directly with the rhetoric of groups like JVP and SJP, I think it can be helpful to affirm some basic facts about the Middle East- namely that the Levant and the Arabian peninsula are two geographically distinct regions divided by a very large desert, and Arabs are only one of many groups of people native to North Africa and West Asia.

The pro-Palestine (“the whole region is meant to be Arab”) disinformation primarily targets Jews, but it also sets up the Kurds, Assyrians, Yazidis, Coptics, Maronites, etc up for an uphill battle being taken seriously in the West.

Idk if you’ve read my one specific post which I have lost track of that explains that my dad’s side of the family is Assyrian and left for the US in 2 waves from Haifa in Ottoman Syria (1st) and British Mandatory Palestine (2nd).

They left because they were scared of the growing Arab nationalist movement (not actually a “Palestinian” nationalist movement- at that point they wanted to establish an Arab Syrian state in control over the whole of the Levant).

Idk what I’m really saying here. Thanks for letting me ramble.

[beardedmrbean]

God the amount of people on here I’ve, not just lost respect for, but become completely repulsed by in the last few days. People I share fandoms with who every so often would reblog those stupid “goblins are Jews so anybody who puts them in stories is antisemetic and should be shunned!!!” Which I usually just rolled my eyes and moved on. Those same damn people are on here justifying Jewish people getting slaughtered and kidnapped. And even if in their minds it’s truly just about “Israel vs Palestine”, not a fucking peep has been heard from any of them about the attacks now occurring to Jews around the world. “Punch Nazis! Listen to Jewish Voices! Be aware of antisemitism!” All goes out the window now I guess?

Gonna be setting everything to do with this situation to 'mature' and tagging "middle east mess" from here on in, this situation is far too much for lots of you and I get that I'm trying to balance things out best I can.

Go into your settings to the "content" filtering as well as "tag" filtering and punch in any terms you can think of to get most of this all off your dash.

Schrödinger's POC.

One thing I've come to realize in my observations over the years is the majority of the different activists, really loud ones at least, don't actually care about the causes they claim to care about, they don't actually want things to improve for people. Having perpetual victims while they themselves are not victims seems to let them look like they're trying to help and stand up for injustice and victimized people while still covertly looking down their noses at them.

Israel is a great example of that since they do a pretty good job mostly on their own surrounded by enemies on all sides, gotten a little less dangerous over the decades but they're still in the danger zone and generally still thriving.

That and they very rarely get involved in a difficult fight, much easier to virtue signal over a video game than it is when there's some fairly complex geopolitical forces at play. And hating Israel is the easier of the two routes to go in this one, you'll also be seeing the folks that say it's not Jews it's "Zionists" even if the overwhelming majority of Jewish people are Zionists.

Which hey, you're all entitled to your opinion but before you go and start bashing Israel on a hourly basis go ahead and look at all the other countries out there and see how you feel about them and decide if you honestly think you're judging them all by the same standard or if you're judging Israel (or any others) more harshly and then ask yourself why that is.

Amnesty went in to Ukraine at one point after several schools had been targeted by russia, amnesty pointed out all of the obvious signs that the ukrainian military had been using those schools as weapons cache's or staging grounds or any of a number of other military purposes and they declared that to be a big no no and properly laid the blame on the ukranian military and government. You made it a military target by putting troops there.

Oddly even though it's widely known that hamass does the same thing, somehow amnesty still goes after Israel who will "knock on the door" of places they're about to level that are legitimate military targets, if they're also civilian buildings. hamass using the roof of a building as a place for a communications array/radio tower they'll get a dummy bomb dropped in their lap and civilians have their 30 min notice to evacuate because it's going down in 30 min one way or the other, but somehow that's not good enough.

and Oh lord I was in the notes of a couple different post and people talking about the Jewish citizens of Israel not actually being the same people that are the indigenous population to that area, which dna tests have proven that wrong, but hey they're out there repeating talking points made up by goebels so remember that next time these people call someone else a nazi, granted they're stupid enough to call actual Jewish people nazis to their faces showing that they've really just turned that word into something that's on par with butthead at this point.

Circling back round, like I said most of these activists they don't want conditions to actually improve for anyone, because they won't be special little guys helping out the poor oppressed people, they'll just be ordinary.

Cancer researchers would be very happy if they got put out of a job, professional activists not so much.

Article link

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This is all beyond very tragic both for the people of Israel and the people of gaza who just want to live their lives free of fear and hate, it is interesting to see people doing 180's on their stances on things like rape and child murder/infanticide and such given who's doing it this time round, if I were Jewish I would be seriously reconsidering my position of I want everyone who wants to and can responsibly do so to own all the guns they like, but having one isn't for me.

I'd cut that last bit out, I'd be armed everywhere I go.

There's lots of issues on both sides of this conflict, but only one side went in to a music festival and murdered 260+ people and dragged off hostages to rape, torture, and maybe attempt to bargain with at some point if the mood strikes.

That's not something the good guys do.

Side note, I'm surprised I haven't seen a specific insult tossed out between members of the Jewish community who are on different sides of this issue, for the curious it's a german word and I'm not going to type it out.

Had someone throw that one at me once which confused me given my lack of being Jewish, loses all it's punch at that point.

[honesty-my-policy]

Part One of publicly rebutting people from the comments & reblogs of this post:

First off @bookwyrm314 has been fighting tooth and nail, yes, I am going to call out people who are defending terrorists who in their charter call for the genocide of Jews, blaming them for everything that ever happened in the world (hi Nazi playbook) and just the general lack of any acceptance of peace. link to their charter that if you haven't read or even skimmed... why are you backing a group you know nothing about? HAMAS CHARTER

Okay to be honest i copied and pasted the comment thread into chatgpt cause the original thread was really wordy & repetitive, with lots of detailed examples & emotional appeals. it was hard to follow after seeing it all in one place. i wanted to shorten it to just the main points.

The difference between war and genocide is that war involves two military groups, while genocide involves a military group targeting civilians, which is happening in Gaza. War has rules: you don’t target civilians, especially children, or pen millions into a single city and starve them. That's ethnic cleansing, not war. The IDF is shooting children and forcing an entire population on a march to Rafah, then bombing the city. This is genocide, not war.

The logical fallacies are off the charts for the entire argument but I'll play.

False Dichotomy = Black-and-White Thinking or presenting a situation as only having two possible categories (war or genocide) without acknowledging the complexities and nuances of the conflict.

What a hasty generalization or generalizing the actions of the entirety of the IDF, as well as the whole conflict with no evidence to back it up. It's also a nice appeal to emotion, which yeah, we should use emotions it is what makes us humans but what truly makes us humans is having emotions but not letting them dictate what we do or think.

Colonization isn’t a justification for ethnic cleansing. It’s insane to say, "You should have ceded your country to colonialism for peace." There are 1.5 million displaced and starving Palestinians. Mass murdering civilians and claiming there were terrorists among them is a war crime. Hiroshima was genocide because it mass-murdered a city. War involves two military groups, not civilians. This situation isn’t war; it’s military versus civilians. Hamas isn’t the children or the city of Rafah.

This is a straw man. You've misrepresented my argument or maybe based on the arguments below not understood that Israel is an indigenous people of the land, they also accepted a two state solution but the Arabs didn't, which led to the Nakba. I explained all of this but you replied with this which is why I say this is a straw man.

Another appeal to emotion instead of actual facts or references. For the record, you stated earlier that war was ugly, this is part of war.

Hiroshima is a false equivalence, you are equating two very different historical events without even acknowledging the significant differences in context and nature. The second bit is circular reasoning, you are assuming what you are trying to prove without providing any evidence.

Another bit of black-and-white thinking, as if civilians have never waged wars in history or things might be more complex in this situation.

Palestine has existed since families bought land from the Mongols in the 14th century. British colonization doesn’t erase that history. Forcing Palestinians to Rafah, starving, and bombing them is a deliberate strategy, not war. Killing civilians creates more terrorists, not fewer. It looks like an attempt to eradicate a nation. The IDF is blocking aid and killing those bringing food. Forcing people to walk across the country with nothing is like the Trail of Tears. It’s ethnic cleansing.

You are appealing to antiquity/tradition as though because something had historical precedent it should be valid or justifiable in the current context. The Jews do the same but they don't go around in their official charter saying that everyone else are infidels, that one specific group is the reason for every bad thing that happens in the world or that until all Arabs everywhere in the world are dead the 'day of judgement' isn't going to come. So... think on that.

To be honest this has nothing to do with anything. It's a non sequitur.

You present another situation with black-and-white thinking, as though there are only two possible categories, ignoring once more the complex nuances of conflict.

This is a classic slippery slope way of thinking. You are suggesting that killing any civilian ever will inevitably lead to the creation of more terrorists without any evidence for this progression happening.

You again assume what you are trying to prove - that there is an attempt to eradicate a nation - without any sufficient evidence.

A final appeal to emotions.

You claim I lack empathy for civilians, but I can distinguish between soldiers and civilians. Your "whataboutism" shows you care more about winning an argument than understanding the truth. Citizens shouldn’t be targeted, that’s a global rule. Were child victims like Hind child soldiers? The Holocaust had survivors; does that mean it wasn’t genocide? Your argument insults Jewish, Japanese, and Palestinian people. The IDF targeting civilians isn’t war; it’s mass murder. They admitted to waiting for targets to go home and killing entire families. Killing 300,000+ civilians is villainous. Making people walk a trail of tears and starving them is evil. Repeating Nazi tactics to win isn’t worth it. Fifty years ago, we’d agree Hamas is bad, but now Hamas is filled with Palestinians angry because the IDF killed their families. Bombing Palestine makes more angry survivors, not fewer. Killing civilians isn’t smart, and it seems like the goal is genocide.

Another straw man at the start, you aren't actually talking about the point.

Oooh! A new one! You decided to attack the character and motive instead of addressing the actual argument. That's an Ad Hominem. Another new one! A Red Herring! Diverting from the main argument and creating distractions instead of focusing on the main discussion.

You really do view the world entirely in black-and-white don't you? How easy life must be.

You also love to generalize the side you don't like without any evidence or nuance and not acknowledging any of the complexities of the situation.

And another slippery slope!

I was going to go through each point and provide evidence to refute everything but goddamn. For one, you provided no actual evidence, for two this entire thing was so laughable after reading it like this.

You are exactly who my original posts targets and that is why you were triggered.

[thebekaatimes]

Two Faces, One Coin: America's Colonization and Israel's Occupation

History often reflects itself, and nowhere is this clearer than in the legacies of colonization, expansion, and displacement. America’s founding and expansion came at the expense of the Indigenous peoples who originally inhabited the land, and the United States’ growth into an empire came with the erasure, displacement, and suffering of Native American communities. Over centuries, colonizers pushed Indigenous communities off their lands, often using violence, broken treaties, and military force. These native populations lost their homes, their cultures were marginalized, and their voices silenced in the march towards "Manifest Destiny." America today stands as a powerful nation, but that legacy of Indigenous suffering remains embedded in its foundations.

In the modern day, the situation between Israel and Palestine echoes much of this tragic history. Since Israel’s establishment in 1948, millions of Palestinians have been displaced, their lands claimed, and their homes occupied. Palestinians find themselves facing forced evictions, restricted movement, and limited autonomy over their own territory. As settlements expand, communities fracture, leaving Palestinians with diminishing access to the land that has been their home for generations. The violence, checkpoints, and barriers they face are reminders of a continuous struggle for sovereignty.

In both cases, America’s colonial past and Israel’s occupation present two faces of the same coin��one shaped by a relentless drive for expansion and dominance, and the other by the suffering of those displaced. These histories remind us of the costs of empire-building, whether in North America or the Middle East, and of the resilience of communities struggling to reclaim their rights, heritage, and homelands.

[angelofthemornings]

Man, I do not want to get into discourse about this and will be ignoring all attempts to do so, but it's interesting that I haven't seen almost anybody on here talk about what we want the endgame to be in Israel/Palestine.

I think we're looking at a two-state solution. (That's gonna be hard for a lot of reasons, such as the fact that Palestinian areas of Israel are kind of scattered all over the map and the country looks more like a puzzle than like, "Gaza" and "everywhere else." This is just one example.)

But the one post I've seen about what to do next was like, let's deport all the Israelis like they did in Algeria, which

a) The white people getting out of Algeria was a massive human rights issue. Aside from the fact that mass deportation is ugly and genocidal, Algeria had refugees just sleeping on the streets in like Paris. There was nowhere for them to go and everybody hated them. Depleting Israel would be an absolutely extraordinary human rights violation and aside from people losing their homes and livelihoods and friendships and anything else they built in Israel, frankly it would get people killed. (I'm a Tatar. We underwent mass deportation and recently at that. Don't argue with me that it can be done in a pleasant way.)

b) The Algerian situation is different because the white people in Algeria had social and linguistic ties to places like France. Meanwhile, I think few Israelis have these ties to where Grandma came from in Lithuania. Also, I think pieds-noirs and their descendants make up something like 13% of the Algerian population today, so it's not like they completely emptied the place.

c) You really think some nice countries are going to take in millions of disenfranchised Jews? Really? Jews? Half the reason why so many people died during the Holocaust is that Jewish refugees were actively being turned away when they tried to leave. This was the fucking 1940s. People are still alive from that time. And I don't think countries would even take in millions of a displaced ethnic group that was more popular like the Swiss or whoever. We're not in the potato famine era anymore when they just let anybody in, we're in an incredibly hostile global environment for immigrants and refugees. It would be nice if that changed, but it's not going to fast enough to help Palestine.

c1) This also ignores the purpose of Israel. Back in the day in Poland, many centuries ago, the Poles let in a lot of Jewish people. This isn't because they were enlightened or kind, it's because they wanted educated people who could collect taxes for the nobility, creating a buffer population who would get killed because if the peasants took issue with this they were gonna attack the evil Jew instead of the szlachta. Similarly, regardless of how one feels about Israel today, it wasn't created for Jewish self-determination or anything warm and fuzzy like that, it was founded by the imperial core in hopes that Middle Eastern bullets would hit Jewish bodies. There would be a massive fight to keep Israelis in Israel. (And this raises the question of what body has both the manpower and desire to mass deport Jews out of the territory to begin with.)

d) Open borders are nice. I don't think someone should be prevented from living somewhere because of their ethnoreligious group, that's evil. I feel this way especially because of how meaningful making aliyah is to many Jewish people and it is UNDENIABLE that they have SIGNIFICANT cultural and religious ties to this place. Don't argue with that, you'll lose.

e) I live on Paugusset land and I don't see anybody trying to kick me out of Connecticut. What's the difference? I am absolutely a member of an oppressor class benefiting from Indigenous subjugation and an ongoing genocide. (And where would I go? Fucking Ukraine where my latest ancestors came from? Ukraine is busy!)

Basically, for reasons of human rights and for reasons of geopolitics, there are GOING to be Jewish people in the territory, there are GOING to be a lot of them, and these facts do not care very much if you personally do not like it. And so we have to figure out a way to arrange the place so that they're not acting as an oppressor class but instead as equals to the Palestinians. This NEEDS to be possible. God knows I don't know how to do it, but I'm hoping someone smarter than me does.

[hero-israel]

This isn’t either of our places to say as neither of us are Palestinian but this is something I’ve been thinking about and I’m curious if you have thoughts.

In order for the Two-State Solution to happen, Palestine will need to nation build, which it is of course already in the process of. One crucial element of that is the culture, and I feel that Palestinian culture has historically largely centered being anti-Israel. Some could point to antisemitism or even try to invalidate the Palestinian identity as a whole by saying it only exists to undermine Israel, but putting all that aside and trying to be charitable, it would not be a sustainable situation to have one nation’s foundation being opposition of its neighbor. So what would Palestine after the conflict even be? From my limited knowledge, my idea would be expanding the resistance narrative beyond just Israel, to British colonizers, Jordan and Egypt’s times of owning parts of it, other Arab and Western states using it for their own ends and being neglectful, etc. Obviously this is still bitter and accusatory, but not only is it now broader than Israel (who could be framed here as just being an occupying and violent force instead of denial of Jewish indigeneity) but it could be less about hating countries/neighbors and having a vengeful grudge but instead about resilience despite everything else. It’s probably not the most historically accurate but there’s been much worse things made up.

Idk, just idealist spitballing here.

If they want to build a society / country around the concept of "Finally we are independent!", like a hypothetical Kurdistan would be vis-a-vis Iraq, Syria, and Turkey, I'd have no critique about that. The problem would be that I don't think it's realistic to expect them to take such an approach, it strikes me as more how Jews wish Palestinians thought instead of how they actually do; perhaps more importantly, it is how Jews talk to Palestinians about creating a state instead of how the rest of the world talks to Palestinians about it. Right up there with "You could have turned Gaza into Singapore!". For every voice describing how to build a distinctive and stable country, there are 100,000 describing how to kill all the Jews and take everything. This can very much shape their expectations.

It is hard to build a culture out of an anti-culture, and that is just one of the major obstacles to Palestinian state-building. I was in an argument with a Palestinian here some years ago, precisely over the make-Gaza-better-with-what-you-have issue, and they actually said - verbatim - "We're not going to gentrify the place." Getting rid of the rubble was far less meaningful than getting rid of the Jews.

Like the meme says: I don't want to cure cancer, I want to turn people into dinosaurs.

[luanna801]

I will make one post clarifying my stances on some things, because I want this on the record as context to everything I post on this subject in the future.

I do not support or take pleasure in the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians. I also do not support or take pleasure in the deaths of innocent Israeli civilians. The fact that this has apparently become a controversial opinion or will get you accused of ""supporting genocide"" (despite saying literally exactly the opposite) is disgusting.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that has committed atrocities. I consider that a fact and not an opinion.

With that said, Netanyahu is a dangerous far-right demagogue whose government has perpetuated racism and war crimes. I do not deny or support this either.

I do not think abolishing the State of Israel is a viable solution to the current situation. I think it is antisemitic to demand that Jews take this position and assume that if we don't, we want to see violence and oppression against the Palestinians. Most of us want to see a peaceful two-state solution with an end to the violence. The people who advocate "wiping Palestine off the map" are disgusting racists and I want nothing to do with them.

It has been proven both through historical and archeological evidence and scientific genetic evidence that Jews are indigenous to the Levant. This means all ethnic Jews. Ashkenazi and Sephardi and Mizrahi. It does not make sense to say they have less right to their homeland than other indigenous groups. They also do not have more right. The fact that Palestinians were displaced to make room for Israel was wrong and is something that can never be fully recompensed, but we have to do what we can to make it right now and create a more equitable future.

In many ways, I'm struggling to understand the answers here. Mostly I'm heartbroken at the situation and at all the innocent people who have been killed or terrorized. None of them deserved it. I am also heartbroken seeing the people react to this situation with antisemitism or Islamophobia, dangerously misinformed pseudo-history, and hate. A lot of people have lost my trust. A lot more people I believe are sincerely well-intentioned but are going about this in extremely wrong-headed ways that are going to sow the seeds of hatred for generations.

Anyone who has a problem with anything I've said here is welcome to unfollow me. There is a lot I'm still struggling to find clarity on and understand how we can do our part in fixing this horrific situation. But at a basic minimum, we need to start from the understanding that both Israelis and Palestinians are human and their lives have equal value. I will not apologize for holding that opinion and I have no time for people who try to tell me that I shouldn't.

[sensoryserenity]

I hope this is okay to send. Thank you so much for using your platform to encourage awareness and support for Palestine.

There is a really good resource for learning about Palestine and Israel for people who don't have much knowledge on the background of the situation. I'd love if you could share it for your followers and would like to encourage other people to share it too wherever they can. I can't link it directly on anon but it's decolonizepalestine (dot) com.

It has an easily read FAQ for people who just want the basics, an area devoted to debunking common myths about Palestine and Israel for people who are worried about misinfo/propaganda they may have internalized and more in-depth articles for people to learn more on any of the topics.

Understanding the history of Palestine's occupation by Israel is incredibly important to understanding current events; so many people don't realise Palestinians are an indigenous population fighting back against colonization by Israel, they are not two warring countries.

This is absolutely okay, thank you so much. I was just looking for reliable resources I could share. I'll add the link to the post here so people can click through:

https://decolonizepalestine.com/faq/

[killing-time-w-kaz]

Since October 7, things have been incredibly difficult. What is happening in Israel and Palestine is horrible, but what stands out to me is seeing how much hatred people still have towards the Jewish people.

I have lost friends because they told me their opinion wouldn’t change if I was out there. I was supposed to be out there in January and I was discussing joining an archaeological excavation there in the summer (I have done several research projects focusing on the archaeology of the region of modern day Israel and Palestine). My good friends from high school wouldn’t care if I was one of the people killed or taken. Those people weren’t friends to begin with if that is how they feel. And I’m sorry it took so long for me to realize that.

A tree does not make a forest. The inability to separate the Jewish people from the Israeli state shows me how people lack critical thinking. And will take any chance to blame us. Misinformation spreads like a wildfire. Yes, the Israeli government has not been the best in their treatment of the Palestinian people. But that is not justification for the massacre of citizens on either side. My friend lost two of her cousins who were protecting their 16 year old son from Hamas shooters. Another friend was in Tel Aviv and buried a friend while there. Another friend, her best friend and his family were kidnapped and no one knows where they are or if they are alive. One of my best friends, her cousin lost 6 of his friends at the music festival. There are only 15 million Jews—we are all connected. I don’t know everyone affected but I grieve for everyone, on both sides. The loss of life is never acceptable and if you justify it, you are losing your humanity.

The double standard Israel is being held to is insane. What country would stand still as 1500 of their citizens were massacred and 200 kidnapped? Why does the world expect them to bend to the will of terrorists? Why doesn’t the world pressure the surrounding Arab nations to take on Palestinian refugees? Why does the world take the word of a terrorist organization as immediate truth?

Because this is not just about the Palestinian people. It’s about antisemitism and the hatred of the Jewish people. I see people calling for a ceasefire, but not for the return of the hostages. Because they don’t care about the hostages. They don’t even care about the Palestinian children they’ve been using as their main counter argument. It’s about the hatred of Israel. They call the Jewish people colonialists, but refuse to understand how the Jewish people are indigenous to the land. Colonizer is a buzzword in an empty argument. I have seen stories of synagogues being burned and Jewish people in other countries getting attacked just for being Jewish. It happened in my neighborhood and my mom didn’t leave the apartment for days. And the only people I see calling for this to stop are the Jewish people. Other people don’t care. Never Again doesn’t mean very much anymore.

I have had very few people outside the Jewish community check in on me without me bringing up the fact that I have been on balancing between rage and heartbreak. I’m tired of people citing statistics and justifying the deaths on both sides. I’m tired of having to defend my friends and family. People have been avoiding me on my college campus. These people are cowards. I have a unique position in all this. I was born to a Muslim family and adopted by a jewish mom and Christian-turned-atheist dad. One of the main differences between my friends/family and former friends is that we don’t celebrate the deaths of innocents. At the Chabad house, we mourned the deaths of everyone, while having to watch our classmates cheer for the massacre of our loved ones.

It is possible to want peace in this situation, but what is unproductive is approaching this with hate and fear. Hate and fear are consuming the world. You can still ask for the end of the bloodshed without turning to Islamophobia or antisemitism.

If you have Jewish friends, check in on them. I don’t care what your stance about the current situation is. Check in on your friends. They are grieving. You might not have Jewish friends after this if you let those relationships break down during this.

[dragoneyes618]

Every Jew is indigenous to the Land of Israel.

Lay that aside.

The people who call themselves Palestinians did not do so until after the Six Day War in 1967. I was in the room at the press conference in 1977 when Egypt’s President Anwar Sadat and Israel’s prime minister went back and forth. Sadat referred to “the Palestinians.” Begin pointedly retorted, “the Arabs of the Land of Israel.”

Lay that aside.

Some say that the Arabs in the Land of Israel were expelled during Israel’s War of Independence in 1948. Others say that their leaders told them to leave, for in a short time they would return to a land empty of Jews. Some say it was a bit of both.

Lay that aside.

Some Arab politicians during the British Mandate period (1922–1948) sold land to Jews even as they publicly agitated against land acquisition by Jews.

Lay that aside.

Lay aside all the arguments about whom the Land of Israel belongs to.

Focus narrowly on just one single data point in the claim that Jews expelled “750,000 indigenous Palestinians” in 1948 — a claim widely circulated and widely assumed to be correct.

This is the critical data point I wish to isolate: Were there, in fact, 750,000 “indigenous” Arabs in the Land of Israel in 1948? Focus only on one-half of the claim that the land is home to two peoples going back hundreds or thousands of years, one of those peoples being Palestinian Arab. Focus only on that.

Open-source data, available on Wikipedia, reveals a dramatic growth in the Arab population in the land coinciding with the immigration of Jews mainly from Europe to the Land of Israel. Jews did not displace local Arabs, Jews lured non-local, non-indigenous Arab immigrants to the land. Check the data:

The Jewish immigration began in earnest in 1881. The Wikipedia figures do not dovetail exactly with 1881, but they are close enough. From 1800 to 1890, the Arab population grew by some 54%. The Muslim population of the area in 1800 was 246,000, and the Christian population 22,000. I assume the Christians were Arabs, for a total Arab population in 1800 of 268,000. In 1890, the Muslim Arab population stood at 432,000 and the Christian Arabs at 57,000, for a total of 489,000.

That’s roughly a 54% growth rate over 90 years.

Compare that to the Arab population growth rate from 1890 to 1947.

That period is when the Jews returned to the area. The year 1947 is when the UN partitioned the land into two states, one Jewish, one Arab, and the year that Israel’s War of Independence began.

In 1947, the Muslim Arab population was 1,181,000 and the Christian Arab was 143,000.

That’s roughly a 270% growth rate over 57 years, since 1890.

Do the math. With the arrival of Jews to the land of Israel, the Arab population jumped dramatically from a 54% rate over 90 years to a 270% rate over 57 years.

Demography is complicated and other factors besides Zionism may have been involved. But the sheer dimension of the Arab growth rate — again, open-source Wikipedia figures; again, 270% in the 57 years of Jewish growth against 54% in the prior 90 years — shows that a major chunk of the Arabs in Palestine at the time of Israel’s War of independence were newcomers or their children, not “indigenous.”

What the population figures show statistically, Mark Twain saw impressionistically. He visited Greece, Lebanon, Syria, and the Holy Land in 1867. In the Land of Israel, he discerned patches of fertility. He wrote, for example, “The narrow canyon in which Nablous [sic], or Shechem, is situated, is under high cultivation, and the soil is exceedingly black and fertile. It is well watered, and its affluent vegetation gains effect by contrast with the barren hills that tower on either side.”

It was those barren hills and similar terrain that overwhelmed Twain. Having traversed the Jezreel Valley on horseback, he wrote:

“There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent — not for 30 miles in either direction. There are two or three small clusters of Bedouin tents, but not a single permanent habitation. One may ride ten miles, hereabouts, and not see ten human beings.”

Other excerpts from Twain’s Palestine travelogue:

“A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds — a silent, mournful expanse.... A degree of desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with pomp of life and action... We never saw a human being on the whole route... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country. Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse....”

His impression of parts of Greece and Syria was much the same. But of Palestine he wrote, “Of all the lands for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince....”

No sizable population in Palestine, Arab or otherwise.

Even the brevity of Twain’s visit, in the hot summer to boot, cannot obscure the miserable condition of the land that the Jewish immigrants found and that they then patiently transformed. It is only with the coming of the Jews to the Land of Israel that the “curse” over the land began to lift and the land began to bloom. It became attractive to others — including non-indigenous Arabs.

What is now pejoratively called “colonization” was, in fact, the return of the Jews to their ancient homeland, a pattern that Arabs in surrounding areas were happy to benefit from economically, medically, and agriculturally.

The myth of two different peoples, both indigenous to the land, long competing for the same piece of territory, is just that: a myth.

[eddieydewr]

I’m glad Noah is removing himself from social media for his own peace of mind. It sucks but social media is toxic and he’s still so young and naive enough that he is prone to over sharing and putting himself in positions where people can be nasty or take advantage of him. It’s sucks to say this is an exercise in growing up the hard way but he does need to protect himself more and not everyone deserves a piece of him or his time. I just hope he’s ok mentally and has a lot of love and support around him now.

Also the zionist thing re the stickers. Wasn’t that his friends stickers and he was just showing them to Noah? That’s what I remember. Ppl be acting like Noah made them and was posting them around the town which he did not. And as for calling everyone a zionist, I think a lot of people don’t even know what zionism is at the most basic level—is just that jews think israel should be allowed to exist/they should be allowed to self determinate in their indigenous homeland. That’s it! How is that evil or bad unless you are an antisemitic piece of shit or you’re so misinformed that you buy the falsehood that israelis are all white european colonizers? Bffr. That’s literally what zionism is, no matter what these zoomers are hearing online or how some people might be twisting it into something far from what it actually means, that’s what being a zionist means in its simplest form. Just that Isreal should be allowed to exist. And that to me is not problematic unless you think jews don’t deserve to have a place in their homeland that expelled them. And do ppl think a jewish boy whose has ties to Israel is going to believe that Israel should not exist and all the millions of jews there should just… what exactly? disappear? relocate where? be killed? what’s the solution again? the fact that cheering for hamas and houthis literally terrorists who kill their own people and shove gays off rooftops and oppress woman and train child soldiers is ok and cool but believing innocent israelis who were murdered should be spared no sympathy and all those jews should not be allowed to have a home is not… just shows what a fucked up world we live in.

I think these people think that zionism = jews thinking they are the best thing ever and all the palestinians need to die but like… no? also like 90 percent or something of jews around the world consider themselves zionists so…. I’m sorry at this point all I am seeing is a lot of people who simply hate jews or aren’t educated about the situation and are putting western US racial politics overtop this middle east issue and they don’t overlap. at all. this has become the most disgusting display from a generation I have ever seen and so worry about this country. But I’ve said to my friends is give it time, as soon as their terrorist buddies decide to attack here again they might finally catch a clue that these “freedom fighters” aren’t their friends or to be cheered on

anyways if believing jews should be allowed to have a homeland and live there peacefully makes me a zionist? then call me a zionist. i would rather support that then cheer hamas

exactly, yeah. all this. they think noah recording his friends and smiling makes him evil and he was happy about people dying in gaza. 😭

they also think zionism and israel itself are based on the destruction of another land (palestine); ethnic cleansing and genocide. even some jews and holocaust survivors believe it (for many different reasons; some of them are actually non zionists instead) but their opinions are used by antisemites to bolster their ~anti zionist claims and israel’s right to exist. they’re also against a two-state solution and think israel should cease to be. israelis simply can use their dual passports (because all of them are dual citizens apparently) and go to brooklyn or poland 🤪 or just stay and become palestinian citizens. somehow i can’t see that going well for jews, especially if “from the river to the sea” palestine is under hamas’ control. so people are either stupid and don’t realise what they’re saying or some of them are actually honest with their intention; to push the jews into the sea.