#I love it so much when people give value to his relationship with JGY he loved him so much damn it!

[sillygoofyqueer]

I have been summoned by the newest chapter of losing hope :3

Not much happened but I’m taking this as a “I will give you fluff both after and before things go to shit”

Jingyi being Jin Ling’s reluctant friend is honestly pretty hilarious and I can’t wait to see those two start to get close because I feel like that’ll be like “I hate this person with every fiber of my being but if you make him cry there will be nobody searching for your body and no body to find either.” Especially after they realize the type of environment he was in his entire life in comparison to their childhoods. They’re goofy and I love ‘em.

Wangxian being shameless is always amazing (love that it’s LWJ doing it too!) but Wwx missing his sword. Jesus, that made me sad. It’d be interesting to see how suibian communicates with Wwx because in canon we know that the swords have spirits but that’s never really expanded upon. Especially since suibian sealed itself. It’d be nice to see them communicating with their weapons (also imagine suibian mother henning Wwx? Or even Wwx thinking of suibian as a sibling/parental figure? The angst for that would be great especially combined with the scene of Wwx giving away his golden core. Both of them would know Wwx would never be able to properly use suibian again and wow that would hurt. Also I’d imagine since Jiang cheng can also use suibian, suibian does care for him much like Wwx but also it’d be funny if it didn’t particularly like him. Like, the entire time Jiang cheng uses suibian it is fluently cursing at him.)

Jingyi picking up on LWJ pining/flirting is very funny but probably not as funny as it will be when sizhui realizes that A) they’ve both been pining for each other for almost two decades B) 100% they are not in a relationship even if they’re totally shameless with each other and C) they both SOMEHOW have NO IDEA that the other likes them back. The facepalm when that realization sinks in will be funny :3

As always fuck JGY.

Also as always, your writing is amazing four and I wish I could give you more Kudos <3333

Remember to take care of yourself and take breaks!

Just...just picture me holding you close right now. That's it, that's the sentence.

Now, I don't know what you meeeaaaan, there is barely any angst in my fic whatsoever and there will never be anymore angst-...*checks timeline doc*....for nowwww....In all seriousness though, I can't actually remember/decide if there will be any angst next chapter, but oh boy if there was wouldn't that be silly. Wouldn't that be sooo goofy? Guess we'll never ever ever EVER know. I was feeling soft and silly, and this was more of a filler chapter, so I was like, "fluff be upon ye" I guess.

Jingyi and Jin Ling are going to have a very interesting friendship - Jin Ling's been raised differently because Wei Wuxian has kind of been a part of his childhood, so I wonder if that will affect how he builds/views relationships with other people - what do you MEAN I can't foreshadow in my post, who said that?! Anyway, I can't wait to think about it from Lan Sizhui's perspective; dude feels bad for Jin Ling because it is OBVIOUS that this poor guy does not know how to talk to people and if he is befriending what everyone labels as a dangerous criminal, then he is in severe need of friendship. Then there's Jingyi in the background, barking like a chihuahua every time Jin Ling does something that the Lan doesn't like until they devolve into fighting.

Ever since I learned about sword spirits, I've always wondered how Suibian would interact with Wei Wuxian and how they work together. I read one too many SVSSS fics where sword spirits hold a big value in them and it was all downhill from there. Think about it - Wei Wuxian had a lot of people who knew him in Lotus Pier, but he was never truly vulnerable with anyone (except maybe Jiang Yanli, but even then, it wasn't much) because he didn't want to sound ungrateful. So, imagine a Wei Wuxian who found solace in ranting to Suibian. Now imagine a Suibian listening and soothing in their own way. You see my vision, right? Imagine losing that when he needed it the most, during the Burial Mounds. Imagine finally being able to get it back after years of unforgettable trauma and torture, when he desperately needs someone he can rely on without second guessing everything to do with human duality. That doesn't exist with a sword spirit - Suibian just cares.

[thepurplewombat]

Character headcanon ask: LXC + JGY!

Okay, so it's finally cooled down enough that my computer has stopped making distressed noises whenever I turned it on, PLUS! we even have power for a few hours today, so here goes:

Lan Xichen

Sexuality Headcanon:

I'm gonna be honest with you, I don't give a lot of thought to characters' sexuality, at least not in terms of having headcanons for them. In my head, LXC is probably some flavor of bi, except that in practical terms, he's A-Yaosexual.

Gender Headcanon:

I think I've read one fic where LXC was actually a woman - not in the sense that he any flavor of trans, at least that was not the impression I got, he was biologically and emotionally a woman, but he was presenting male because of Political Reasons, and I thought that was quite interesting. But in general, I think he's a cis male.

A ship I have with said character:

Oh I don't know, I just don't know, who could I possibly ship the incomparable First Jade of Lan with - it's Jin Guangyao. Like, I'm not going to say that xiyao is canon and everyone who disagrees is wrong (even though they are) because everyone is allowed to be wrong on Beyonce's internet, but any version of Lan Xichen that isn't in love with Jin Guangyao is a Lan Xichen who is so wildly out of character to me that I just don't know what to do with him.

A BROTP I have with said character:

I think he'd get along really well with Jiang Cheng as friends - like, among the reasons that I don't think they work as romantic partners is that I think Lan Xichen would find being in a relationship with JC utterly exhausting. As a romantic partner, you feel somewhat responsible for managing your partner's moods, in a way that you don't necessarily feel the need to do in a friendship. I just think that the distance of a friendship would give him the opportunity to enjoy Jiang Cheng's cunty tendencies and temper, while not making him feel in any way responsible for managing Jiang Cheng's moods.

A NOTP I have with said character:

That being said, Jiang Cheng is not actually my NOTP for this character. I remain convinced that chengxiyao is a viable ship that just needs the right story to take off, and I'm sure that if I were to read a really good x!cheng fic, where Jin Guangyao is not demonised or erased, I would probably enjoy it.

No, my NOTP is Nie Mingjue. Mainly because I think he's an abusive jerkweed who reminds me of both my murderous ex and my late father (although to be fair to the Great Old One, he never tried to kill me) and I don't think that someone who is incapable of understanding that maybe other people have different priorities and points of view, is a good fit to be in a relationship with anyone who doesn't precisely share his values.

Oh and also Nie Huaisang. Just no. NOPE.

A random headcanon:

Not long after the end of canon, Lan Xichen disappears from his house of seclusion and is never seen again, because he's given the entire jianghu the middle finger and fucked off.

General Opinion over said character:

When I finished the book he was my favourite, and I was initially drawn into thinking more about Jin Guangyao because I was looking for stories where Lan Xichen has a happy ending, and a lot of the time, a happy ending for Lan Xicnen requires a happy ending for JGY as well. In the months since, he's been somewhat supplanted by JGY - it's not that I love him less, it's that I love JGY so much more (send help I am genuinely unwell about Jin Guangyao).

More general opinion - I think Lan Xichen should have the opportunity to go absolutely feral.

Jin Guangyao

My lovely boy, my sweet cheese, my rotten soldier, I love him so much.

Sexuality Headcanon:

I mean, canonically he loves both a man (LXC) and a woman (QS) so, bisexual?

I do think he has a complicated relationship with sex, because of his mother's profession and his father's...everything, but I think that like most of his traumas, he pushes it into a box and never ever thinks about it.

Gender Headcanon:

I think that when he was a small boy, his mother went on her knees every day and thanked all the gods and ancestors that he was a boy, because at that point she must have still hoped that JGS would come for them.

So I don't think that JGY has ever actually thought about his gender beyond 'thank the gods I wasn't born a girl'. Like, he could never allow himself to even consider anything other than being a man, because he was his mother's son, you know?

A ship I have with said character:

Xiyao. They're just so *clenches fist* I love them, your honor. Like, they just so obviously love each other - it's more obvious in CQL, but it's not exactly subtle in the novel either, and I just...my heart breaks for them and I love them so much.

I can also be convinced about Chengyao, because I think that Jiang Cheng and Jin Guangyao have got some things in common, and the ways in which they differ are very complementary.

A BROTP I have with said character:

I think that he and Wei Wuxian could have been great friends, if the stars had aligned properly.

A NOTP I have with said character:

Obviously it's a free internet and everyone can do what they want, but personally I can't ship my blorbo with someone who tried to murder him three times and hated him so much that even without knowing that JGY had killed him, he became a fierce corpse and escaped the grave to come after him. Just nope.

A random headcanon:

I don't think that JGY would have left the temple that night. I think he was genuinely trying, because at base he's an engine of survival, but honestly I think when push came to shove and he had to leave Lan Xichen and never see him again, I'm not sure he would have done it.

General Opinion over said character:

I love him. he's my favourite character in MDZS, and he's near the top of my list of all time favourite characters.

[fixielixie]

tbh it’s not really fair to put nmjs opinion of jgy on the same level as sect leader yao, as nmj not only had a direct relationship with jgy that was extremely complicated, but he was also a victim to jgys scheming. (also nmj trying to kill jgy isn’t really a mark against his character, every time he tried was because he had caught jgy in the act of killing or betraying their alliance)

jgy is also someone who time and time again showed that he Will kill you and everyone u love if u speak out against him. if wwx killed every person who ever said something mean about him there would be no one left in the cultivation world.

their characters aren’t really comparable because at their cores their values are so different. if wwx was in jgys position he wouldn’t have done the things jgy did (and i can say that with pretty strong certainty, bc both their situations at the beginning of their lives are vaguely similar)

i mean asking if altruism is the thing that makes wwx a good person is wild bc like,,… wwx being a kind person who cares about the well-being of others, willing to stick up for people who are being wronged,,,…. literally why wouldn’t this make him a good person ? what about this suggestion that he’s actually a morally dubious person.

also i just fully disagree that there’s much textural evidence of jgys so called goodness, the points u bring up in ur first part are pretty flimsy at best. mostly based on ur own opinion of how his actions could be considered good,

ie, the xue yang thing, espeically when jgy letting xy go wasnt because he was against his practices but bc he was pressured to do so by nmj. xue yang was personally recommended by jgy and was managed by him. jgy gave him the freedom to do his experiments, a place to do them and “bring him materials” such as giving over an entire sect of living people, children and elderly people for xue yang to use as he pleased.

jin lings place in the jin sect is unquestionable but that has nothing to do with jgy and everything to do with his blood. jgy was also perfectly willing to let jin ling die during the second siege of the burial mounds. he also played a part in jxzs death, just bc he deflects it when wwx calls him out doesn’t mean that wasn’t his intention. su she’s role in the plot has everything to do with jgy manipulating someone who he thought would be useful later on.

wen chao+the wens: murders every single person wwx held dear to him, burns down his home, taunts him with the fact that he killed everyone, crippled jiang cheng thus putting wwx in a position where he had to cripple himself, tortures him and then throws him into the burial mounds where he’s trapped for 3 months ect ect ect

ppl on here: … i think wwx went Way too far in getting revenge against wen chao… it was immoral and unethical,,, hes not the good guy here.

[poorlittleyaoyao]

I mean Nieyao were close in the books, it's mentioned that NMJ took it so hard because he has a hard time growing close to people and that he finally found someone he really connected with and trusted since Xichen and then JGY killed a guy and faked suicide so he could seal NMJ's spiritual energy and make sure he couldnt follow him to force him to turn himself in. People are just very intense in this universe, songxiao were together for like six months

Good LORD. Between this and Novel LWJ falling in forever-and-ever love with Novel WWX after a couple months of being harassed at summer camp, everyone in Novelverse is operating on the same bonding timeline as college freshmen. This isn't an insult, because the people about whom I went "wow!! just met this person but we are now Best Friends!!" during my first month or so of college are STILL some of my best friends over a decade later... but yeah, like you said, it's intense! And it's a very different vibe from what CQL gives us, I think, because its general policy of bringing characters into the narrative sooner and/or adding content for worldbuilding purposes results in all the characters having more of a history when things go south.

Since I haven't read much of the novel beyond what's been officially released in English, I'm curious to know what we hear about JGY's view on his three months with NMJ. I sympathize with both iterations of NMJ, because for someone so genuinely devoted to his values and who was forced to grow up VERY fast and never got much of a chance to connect with his peers, it would be VERY UPSETTING to have the guy you thought was your bestie be like "if you thought you saw me kill your officer, no you didn't." Then next time you see him, he's working for the guy who killed your father and seems to be having a LOT of fun torturing you, and THEN your one remaining bestie insists that It Was All According To Keikaku, he didn't mean it, we just had a secret plan that we never told you about. That sucks! I'd be furious too! (Though I'd also be furious with LXC for not trusting me with the truth and/or taking his word over mine, tbh.)

HOWEVER--and this goes back to me wondering about JGY's perspective in the novel--I also feel for JGY here. To me, the core of Nieyao's dysfunctions are that they are never, ever on even footing. Regardless of NMJ's intentions, JGY is NMJ's subordinate in their time together--and not in a "technically you're my servant but really we're besties" way like the Jiang siblings and WWX. JGY doesn't a lifetime of shared memories or well-regarded parents to trade on; he has no ties to Qinghe at all. His standing is fully dependent on NMJ's goodwill, so it is in his interest to play into whatever connection NMJ believes them to have, regardless of his own feelings.

Which makes it extra messy! Because NMJ would, I think, be absolutely FURIOUS if it occurred to them that JGY might have considered his affection compulsory--not in a jerkass possessive way, but on principle. Furious at JGY for lying to him, furious at himself for not considering the power differential, furious at the whole situation for preventing him from forming a bond on its own merits. (Meanwhile, I think LXC is valuable for both NMJ and JGY because they both forge their relationships with LXC on equal footing in a way that they never could with each other.)

CQL gives the impression that they've know each other for awhile, long enough that JGY's well-established as NMJ's deputy before NHS heads to Cloud Recesses Summer Camp. I'm admittedly a JGY apologist, but I interpret JGY's distress when NMJ banishes him as 100% genuine. Both of them are hurting, both of them feel betrayed, and neither of them want this to be happening because they have a meaningful shared history. My general impression of the novel vs. the show is that the show downplays the political aspects to their conflict (as well as the physical threat NMJ poses) in favor of cranking up the personal aspect. The Gone Girlification of Jin Guangyao that we get in CQL doesn't seem to mesh with what I've heard of MDZS, which in turn is what makes me wonder how novel JGY viewed his and NMJ's relationship.

[journey-to-tiger-mountain]

I love how xiyao dynamic is this perfect poison.

Like I know people love to talk about Lan Xichen being tricked or wilfully ignorant, but I don't think that's really it. I think Jin Guangyao only ever showed his best side to him, the person he could have been if his ambitions and quest for power hadn't won over, and LXC has his very own version of JGY that makes him feel good about himself. What LXC has with JGY is a very singular and unique connection. They have a wartime bond strenghtened by shared struggles and mutual understanding. LXC has been raised to be perfect and responsible all his life, he's always put his family and his clan first, and from the very first scene when LXC and Meng Yao meet, we see how eager LXC is to display virtue, do the right thing and uphold social order. But he is also taken by surprise by MY, and I do think he has a bit of a possessiveness and a savior complex going on in their relationship.

To LXC, his bond with JGY is something that is just for them, it's special and private and something he has just for himself. He likes how it makes him feel, how he alone understands JGY and sees him for who he really is, how they have this special bond that sets them apart from the rest. LXC doesn't share JGY really with anyone; NMJ isn't as emotionally invested, and even marriage is secondary to true sworn brotherhood. To someone who's never had anything just for himself, the relationship with JGY is the most precious thing. LXC makes JGY feel good about himself too, but for him it never leads to full self-realization. JGY is deeply insecure and despite how much he admires and loves LXC, he isn't ever fully himself with him, but a curated, best version of himself and who he thinks LXC wants him to be. He never shows his greatest flaws or confronts them about himself, but rather chooses to have this safe bubble of perfection and safety with LXC where he escapes sometimes. In the end, JGY valued this peace and giving LXC what he wanted, and didn't trust that he could show his flaws to LXC even in long-term. And I don't even mean the murders, I mean things like his insecurities, bitterness, grudges, fears and anger. He never really believed that he as he is would be good enough for LXC. Their feelings of love and admiration are genuine and mutual, but they are just a little bit out of synch, always.

And it's such a waste too, because in the end, when every crime is revealed, it turns out that LXC is still willing to hear JGY out. He kneels down to calmly talk to him and ask for his side of the story. He tries to realize the truth, face the problem and solve it. He won't turn away or run from it.

Even when JGY lashes out with a sword in his chest, blames and accuses LXC, even then, LXC but rather die with him.

And so JGY was insecure for nothing and sacrificed everything good in his life for ambition, and LXC is left to realize he never really knew the person he was so happy to have all for himself.

[gloriousmonsters]

character ask game 💚🤍🖤 - so uh, talk to us about Lan Sizhui? 😁😏

one aspect about them i love

Honestly I did not spend that much brainspace on LSZ before writing trust me as though I were your enemy, which is a very *cough* specific and premise-based take on his character, so... speaking from my brief newfound interest in the character, I love the untapped potential of his character? Most of what we see is very surface level--not to say his kindness and proactive Good-Boy-ness isn't genuine if it's not backed by the correct impulses, I think on one hand he genuinely values being considerate and careful and kind (and him being the only Lan junior who tries speaking gently to 'Mo Xuanyu' when he's just acting deliberately 'crazy' still gives me feelings. i, like wwx, have the 'such a nice kid! how tf did the Lan sect spit HIM out?' reaction 😂)

...but on the other hand, 'Lan' Sizhui has no real choice but to be a Good Kid. He's kind of adopted into the Lan family, but his main point of adoption is Lan Wangji, and it happened during the years LWJ was thoroughly destroying all of his Good Boy rep within (parts of, at least) the sect--something I thought about but didn't manage to work thoroughly into the fic was that LSZ probably deals with a lot of spillover dislike by, say, the 33 elders that were severely wounded by LWJ. And then there's all the shit he'd just barely remember... In conclusion, LSZ pretty probably grew up with the impression that Something Bad happened when he was a kid but nobody will talk about it, and dealt with feeling like he was on Thin Fucking Ice with a significant portion of the Lan elders without knowing why. Perfect recipe for a kid to repress any 'bad' feeling or behavior he might ever have!

So... what's under that surface? Especially when he starts learning about the truth of everything that happened at the end of canon, and learns where he actually came from?

Fun to think about.

one aspect i wish more people understood about them

I am not familiar enough w how people usually characterize him to really speak on this...

one (or more) headcanon(s) i have about this character

something that I did decide on during writing is that while he's not disliked by many people in the younger generations, he really doesn't have any friends except for Lan Jingyi. He doesn't get close to people easily, so it takes someone as enthusiastic and bad at reading subtlety as Jingyi to hang in there and earn the position :P

one character i love seeing them interact with

Tbh I'm not immune, his interactions with WWX and LWJ when he's a little kid hit me right in the heart. It's especially adorable in CQL, when he's sitting in LWJ's lap and you can see LWJ getting baby fever in realtime. They may not be the best guardian-ish figures, but his connection to both of them is still obviously important to him, and seeing the beginnings of it is still painfully sweet.

one character i wish they would interact with/interact with more

Honestly there's a lot I wish here! I'd like to see something of him traveling with Wen Ning (I've heard there's a movie, but also that it sucks, and based on Fatal Journey i believe it); I'd like to have seen more one-on-one interaction with LWJ when he's older, instead of always just being part of the Group of Juniors. After writing this fic, I'm also wishing that he'd ever really interacted with SMS, lol.

one headcanon i have that involves them and one other character

Separate from any fics i may or may not be writing < <.... I think he had a good, if not at all close, relationship with Jin Guangyao, and looked up to him a little bit (lsz: wow you're repressing EVERYTHING and you're doing it so well i wanna be you when i grow up). He felt a little guilty about it because while LWJ never said anything specific, he didn't seem to like Lianfang-zun much, but whenever LSZ saw him (at conferences and meetings in Jinlintai, or during JGY's frequent visits to the Lan sect) JGY was always super nice and friendly, and jokes aside was modeling a type of poised strength that was very different from LWJ's uncaring-of-social-consequences conduct that LSZ, to say the least, did not feel like he was capable of.

(jgy, on his end, is having a 'wow what a nice kid how tf is he someone adopted by that rude boy lwj' moment)

[ouyangzizhensdad]

Phoenix Mountain Kiss and Consent/Boundaries in MDZS

The following opinion, expressed in the recent mdzs controversial opinion thread on twitter, is actually one I’ve meant to address for a while:

Even if most of fans loves the 'stolen kiss scene' in the Phoenix Mountain in the novel, that was a sexual harassment.

People in the fandom, especially those who were introduced first to the novel through cql, have a tendency to criticize the Phoenix Mountain kiss scene, saying it was non-consensual. My problem is not that they are wrong. The kiss is (or starts as, at the very least) non-consensual. My problem with this criticism is that people point this out as if it were a mistake. As if mxtx had meant to write a romantic kiss and had instead fumbled it all up and made it not consensual by virtue of not being woke, not being a good enough writer, or being too influenced by bl tropes. And that readers are too unsuspecting or not educated enough to realize the wrong mxtx committed. 

Here’s my hot take: The kiss is non-consensual because it was written to be non-consensual. mxtx is not trying to pull the wool over our eyes. The reason why we, as readers, can infer that, is because the non-consensual aspects of the kiss are important to the events of the plot, some of themes explored in the book, lwj and wwx’s relationship after wwx’s return, and lwj’s character arc. mxtx uses this moment and its aftermaths, amongst others, to make a point about consent and communication in relationships--one of the central themes of the novel. Shocking, I know. Arguing that consent and communication are a main theme in mdsz: now that's a controversial opinion.

Now, I won’t argue mxtx always manages to develop this theme with utmost finesse. You can critique and disagree with her treatment of the theme throughout the novel (taking into consideration, as well, how it’s not just explored through lwj and wwx’s relationship). That being said, isolating events in the novel like the Phoenix kiss scene to mark them as Good or Bad without considering the context in which they happen and are explored within the novel is just bad literary analysis :/. 

Let’s first consider this simple statement: the non-consensual aspect of the kiss is not accidental--mxtx knew it was non-consensual when she wrote it, and she wasn’t trying to hide that fact. 

By the time we reach the Phoenix Mountain competition, lwj has accepted his feelings for wwx, and that these feelings will not be returned. After all, in the xuanwu cave, wwx took great pains to ‘reassure’ him that he is super-straight-and-totally-would-never-flirt-with-him. Yet, wwx continues to ‘flirt’ with him--tossing a flower at him just before the competition--which we can gather is a source of, um, great torment for him. 

We are not privy to lwj’s thought process leading to the stolen kiss. What we know for certain, however, is how he reacts to and perceives his own actions after the fact.  Through wwx’s unreliable narration, we can still understand that lwj immediately regrets his actions and feels uncontrollable anger towards himself and his lack of self-restraint. While wwx has more complicated and contradictory feelings bout the kiss, lwj clearly sees his actions as wrong and disrespectful. He is scared of what he has been capable of doing unto another person--pushing wwx away the moment he sees him after the kiss. 

The person spun around. It was Lan Wangji after all. However, right now, his eyes were bloodshot, his expression almost frightening. Wei Wuxian was startled, “Wow, so scary.”

Lan Wangji’s voice was harsh, “Go!”

Wei Wuxian, “I just came here and you want me to go. Do you really hate me that much?”

Lan Wangji, “Stay away from me!” [chapter 69]

As readers, we are told that the Phoenix Mountain kiss, nor its implications, is not something to consider lightly. The fact that lwj’s reaction after the kiss is written in, and that it is so intense for someone usually so reserved, or the fact that we learn that more than a decade later he is still ashamed of himself and describe himself as having done something wrong (or, very wrong 很不对 ), all prove that the non-consensual aspect of the kiss is not an accident and is not downplayed as something to expect from someone in love with another person. 

蓝忘机闷声道：“我，那时，自知不对。很不对。” [chapter 111]

I can already hear some people ask: even if it was not an accident, why chose to include a non-consensual kiss between the two romantic leads? if not because it is a bl trope/weird kink, why did mxtx chose to put this in her novel? what do we gain by including dubious consent or non-consensual interactions in our fiction?

The long-short answer is: because the act of crossing boundaries is a very productive story-telling device for any piece of media focusing on any type of interpersonal relationships. Crossing boundaries--willfully or unintentionally--is a source of conflict, internal and/or relational, which can drive the plot forward, shape character development and relationships, as well as be useful for certain thematic discussions. 

Current discourses regarding consent in English-speaking, mostly-western spheres of the web tend to be very polarized, painting people who cross boundaries as bad. The solution presented (i.e. how to not be a bad person) tends to be an invitation for everyone, within any relationship, to constantly negotiate consent verbally and honestly: to constantly disclose boundaries, to constantly ask for permission, etc. While I do not dismiss the value of these suggestions, it is an ideal representative of certain socio-temporally specific cultural expectations of what communication is, how communication should happen, and how relationships should be like, etc.. Human relationships are messy, people are flawed and hurt each other, and we have complex internal lives (for instance, someone might not realize their wants or limits until they are faced with them). Instead of having media show us only a specific type of idealized relationships where boundaries are never crossed, ever, they allow us to explore the implications of boundaries within interpersonal relationships. Or, sometimes, media and fiction just aim to represent or are influenced by this very real part of human relationships, and use it as a way to create conflict within the narrative and relationships (sometimes in a interesting manner, sometimes in a very gross manner).

In mdsz, the Phoenix mountain non-consensual kiss is a two-fold source of conflict:  internal (lwj) and relational. While wwx remains unaware until he and lwj are together of the identity of the person who kissed him, the implications of the kiss ends up shaping their relationship both before and after wwx’s rebirth. 

A source of (unknown) conflict between lwj and wwx after he is summoned back from the dead is the fact that lwj believes wwx is aware of his feelings. But this conflict is further compounded by the fact that lwj has once forced his feelings unto wwx, and is utterly afraid that he would dare to ever do it again. That is why, every time wwx initiates physical contact, or flirts very deliberately with lwj, lwj never goes further than what wwx has initiated. Sometimes, he even de-escalates their proximity or level of intimacy (usually by asking wwx to “ 别乱动”  or, famously during Drunk#2, by literally knocking himself out) --out of fear that he, again, would lack self-control and do something wrong to the man he loved.  He never presumes he has the permission to push their relationship further than what wwx is offering. Without that added source of conflict, would it have been reasonable to expect lwj and wwx to have realized their mutual feelings earlier, even with the issue of lwj not being aware wwx does not know of his feelings?

“In the beginning, the reason for behaving in such a manner was to let Lan Wangji be disgusted with him and kick him out of the Cloud Recesses, and they would never have to meet again, going their separate ways. Lan Wangji couldn’t possibly tell what his real intentions were. Yet, [..] even when faced with Wei Wuxian’s various actions, tricks, and pranks, Lan Wangji never once lost his temper, reciprocating with restraint and courtesy.” [chapter 99]

That is all true, of course, until Drunk 3. Here again, the ghost of the stolen kiss plays a part in accentuating the conflict. Without it, would lwj have jumped to conclusions as quickly? And, plot-wise, the shared perception of wwx and lwj that they have taken advantage of the other is a source of conflict that does multiple things--it gives wwx an incentive to go look at the temple at night to distract himself from his guilt and sadness, instead of going the next day with lwj (at which point jgy would have had perhaps already left) and it keeps wwx in the dark about lwj’s feelings until lxc reveals to him the events of the past he has forgotten. Here again, issues of consent are clearly taken into consideration as a source of conflict, shaping both characters’ motivations and the events of the plot.

Finally, the theme of consent/boundaries is an important aspect of lwj’s internal struggle, particularly in relation to his father’s choices. The kiss is part of his journey. 

It is not coincidental that the Lan motto is “Be Honorable”/”Self-restraint,” and that lwj is presented as the model Lan disciple. This element is part of the context that gives narrative and thematic meaning to the non-consensual kiss. When lwj forces a kiss on a blindfolded wwx, lwj goes against the values he holds dear and the teachings that were imparted unto him--prime internal conflict. 

But what is also interesting, to me in any case, is how consent is the thing that ultimately differentiates lwj’s choices from his father’s. 

How willing was Lan-furen to be saved by Qingheng-jun? to be taken to live in seclusion in the Cloud Recesses? to be married to him? to have children with him? The novel never tells us clearly. However, the novel gives us an idea of how lqr, lxc and lwj perceive their parents’ relationship. For lwj, we are given an insight into his perception indirectly during the following conversation between him and lxc.

[Lan Xichen] spoke, “Wangji, is there something on your mind? Why have you been so tense?”

Of course, in most people’s eyes, the ‘tenseness’ probably looked no different than Lan Wangji’s other expressions.

Lan Wangji’s brows sunk low as he shook his head. A few moments later, he replied in a low voice, “Brother, I want to take someone back to the Cloud Recesses.”

Lan Xichen was surprised. “Take someone back to the Cloud Recesses?”

Lan Wangji nodded, his expression pensive. After a pause, he continued, “Take them back… and hide them somewhere.”

Lan Xichen’s eyes immediately widened.

[…]

“Hide them somewhere?”

Lan Wangji frowned softly. “But they are not willing.” [chapter 72]

Indirectly, we come to understand that lwj draws parallels with his father situation: they both want to protect someone by taking them to the Cloud Recesses, but these persons are unwilling. The unsaid question here is, would I choose to do as our father did? 

The non-consensual kiss is part of lwj’s journey, through which he comes to understand that, despite his strict upbringing and disciplined lifestyle that was supposed to keep him from becoming like his father, he is capable of being his father (or at least who he thinks his father is). He learns that he can understand what sort of passionate feelings could bring someone to do something that goes against not only the wishes of his clan members, but the very wishes of the person they love, for the sake of keeping them safe or for the sake of having them by their sides. And at the end of that internal journey, lwj chooses not be like his father--to put wwx’s decisions and wants and needs first. After buyetian, lwj offers his protection and confesses his feelings--and wwx rejects him. lwj respects wwx’s choice, while still going against his clan to protect him. He brings wwx back to Mass Grave Hill knowing full well that wwx would not survive long the wrath of the four great sects seeking revenge against him, and goes home to receive his punishment.

Overall, what I tried to say in many many words, is that the Phoenix Mountain kiss is not non-consensual by accident. It is not because mxtx is an awful person or is not educated enough, or because she thinks dubious consent is romantic. The fact that it is non-consensual is addressed within the narrative, fuels internal and external conflicts, and is as well woven into the plot structure and the themes of the novel. The kiss is not an outlier element, added to titillate a readership--it exists as an integral part of the novel.

I’m not saying it’s not okay to decide that you do not want to engage with any content that includes non-consensual interactions or dubious consent because that triggers or irks you regardless of the way it is handled. It is totally valid to not personally enjoy or have criticisms about choices mxtx made in exploring these themes, in presenting the internal and relational conflicts around consent/boundaries, or even in the way she decided to write the scenes that figure dubious consent. However, it is not really helpful to divorce an event from its context within a piece of media in order to brand it as either Problematic or Unproblematic, Good or Bad.

Note: Much more could be said about the theme of consent/boundaries in mdzs; this is not exhaustive in the least. 

Note2: Much more could be said, in relation to the question and theme of consent, about: the cultural limitations of Westerners to engage fully with a text written for a chinese audience; the limits of fan translators to fully understand  the nuances and themes of a novel and to communicate them in a different language; about the place dubious consent and non-consensual interactions has had in the romance/erotica genre for a long time, and no, not only because Misogyny or Homophobia. 

[xiyao-feels]

the anti-NMJ mustache anon here!

I do love the xiyao dynamic a lot. As a person who first read 3zun fics, I ended up liking xiyao a lot more and went out of my way looking for fics centering around them. I can’t pinpoint exactly what I like so much about them, but it’s absolutely fascinating.

And yeah, the donghua versions have no right to look that fine. Literally every character looks perfect?! Even WRH and JGS?? I feel so betrayed. And don’t get me started on the chibi characters. I think that’s what essentially got me into the fandom in the first place.

Sadly, most people post stuff from the drama, so it makes me sad.

Ahahahaha, fair cop, anon!

It might interest you to know that hot WRH and JGS have some canon support XD

WRH:

A voice laughed madly, “Let it be!”

It was a youthful voice. Wei WuXian wasn’t the least surprised. Wen RuoHan’s level of cultivation was extremely high, so of course his corporal body was also perfectly maintained in its prime.

(ER trans, ch. 49)

JGS:

Suddenly, a row of cultivators wearing white, gold-lined robes rushed out, dressed in light armor and riding on broad stallions. The frontmost person had handsome features, protected by the same armor. It was the sect leader, Jin GuangShan.

(ER trans, ch. 69—and thanks to mercyandmagic's excellent thread of common novel misconceptions on twitter, I couldn't remember where the source for this was)

Not at all saying this is what you like about xiyao, but taking the opportunity to ramble some because I really do love them—

They're so good!!!! They click really immediately and they come together—not necessarily as lovers, but definitely as partners, also pretty immediately. That's really one thing I love about them: they work together, and for the same goals, whether that's saving LXC, or spying on the Wen during Sunshot, or the watchtowers and JGY's grand project. Which they're working on before JGY becomes xiandu!!! I always get emotional at that bit at the stairs, that they're working on the watchtower projects. Their values are different but in a lot of ways more similar to each other's then like anyone else's. A friend of mine from twitter said that they were very similar in many ways, and then also different in compatible ways, which I think is very good. JGY has more—ambition, initiative, vision?—than LXC does, and something I think people miss is that that's something LXC really admires about him!!!! They both admire the other so so much; they just think each other is really cool.

God, they're always spending time together, and considering their schedule!!! You can see that they /like/ each other, they just enjoy being together. They support each other. Obviously JGY does more, and I don't mean to minimize that, but LXC absolutely does stuff too—even aside from repeatedly saving JGY's life, I mean, there's the teaching him the SoC, there's the watchtowers, there's his support at Hejian with the other cultivators, and then telling him about the opportunity at Langya and volunteering to speak to NMJ about it if needed, there's his giving him a handkerchief when Zixun throws wine on him, helping him expand the grounds at the Phoenix Mountain Hunt automatically, without even being asked, he must have supported his bid for xiandu and of course the watchtowers after too, and—it /is/ support, that's the thing, like—he doesn't prioritize his own distress at seeing JGY mistreated, or his anger at people mistreating JGY, over actually helping JGY and helping him achieve his goals. It's—they're friends and partners and allies!!! Really and truly!!!!!

And then both of them are also just profoundly special to each other. I think sometimes people try and make LXC the /only/ person JGY cares about, which is definitely not so—he cares about QS, he cares about JL, he cares about NHS, etc—but LXC is absolutely nevertheless unique, a tier on his very own. I think JGY would kill most people if he had to to survive, but never ever LXC. And meanwhile LXC is—he has a personal connection with very few people, I think, and the two people he cares about the most are LWJ and JGY. He—well, he really is a romantic Lan about him. His preference for JGY's company is really really marked. Actually I don't think I've posted here about how the last scene LXC appears in in the novel—in terms of chapter order not chronology, it's set pre-Sunshot—also has a lot of JGY in it /even though at this point in MDZS they haven't met yet/, but—it does.

And in both MDZS and CQL of course he breaks when JGY dies.

I just. This isn't a grand essay about everything I love about xiyao but I just. They're so good!!! They love each other and support each other and admire each other and just like each other, so much???? They enjoy spending time together???? They work together on common projects????? They understand each other a lot better than most people do, they can just be human with each other, they were friends and partners for almost twenty years!!!!!! Like!!!!!!! They had a really solid and really good relationship!!!! I love them so much and their ending kills me every time.

And they're both kind!!!! And skillfully so!!!! And extraordinarily skilled and competent!!!! And the projects they do undertake—the watchtower program is /huge/ (twelve! hundred! watchtowers! rumours of a planned expansion to three thousand!), it's the kind of thing that will save thousands of lives. Like—/what/ they work on—this maybe isn't flashy but it's going to save so so many people. And it's an ongoing project! It's not one-and-done, JGY is still working at it at the time of the WWX's return and LXC must be working with him on it!!!! I LOVE THEM SO MUCH, OKAY, GOD.

...returning to your actual ask—unfortunately I don't know any blogs that mostly post manhua/donghua visuals, but I do wish you good luck!!!

[watch-grok-brainrot]

Jin Guangyao's Violation of 忠孝仁义

So I had written about WWX and his strong sense of 忠孝仁义 last week. While I was writing it, I kept on thinking about JGY and how he managed to violate all of these virtues. I wanted to go into this characterization of him because I find it so interesting how opposite he is to WWX in the decisions he made. (Warning: i’m not nice to JGY here so if you don’t want him dragged, don’t read?)

忠- loyalty, devotion, fidelity (usually for country or monarch)

(Can I take a moment to talk about how much I LOVE THIS SHOT?! The blood of WRH on the camera lens, WRH falling over, the sudden shift to brightness that mirrors the scene in ep 50 where JGY obscures the sun in his bow (picture above the read more cut)! I can’t get over how much I LOVE the lighting and the way WRH collapses, making way for JGY to become the new sun. Foreshadowing much CQL Crew?!)

This one might be a stretch depending on how you read JGY. I fully believe he went to work for Wen Ruohan as Wen Zhuliu did -- seeking someone who will value his skills. However, WZL died for WRH and JGY just bided his time. (Note: While we know very little about Wen Zhuliu, we know he was at least 忠 and 义. He died for WRH and Wen Chao and refused to let WC desecrate Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan’s bodies. For that, I have to give him respect. He, despite everything, still had that jianghu sense of 义. Also, the man can count. And knows what a golden core feels like.)

So we know JGY gave Lan Xichen the maps, but he also lured them to Nightless City where the puppets were waiting. Had WWX not brought out the Stygian Tiger Amulet, would JGY have murdered WRH? Or would he have stayed in the shadows forever? As a viewer I have no idea what JGY is thinking, what he’s doing, or what he’s hoping for. He hides so well his intentions that there is debate about if he really was helping with the Sunshot Campaign or not! That isn’t something you can say about someone with loyalty. 

What upsets me further is that Nie Mingjie, having been JGY’s superior officer, sees JGY more clearly than LXC can. NMJ has seen JGY murder and has seen the level of self-serving vindictiveness JGY is capable of. In the case of the Sunshot Campaign, this self-serving attitude made JGY become a double agent uncommitted to either side. Too bad NMJ could not convince LXC of JGY’s duplicity. I’m gonna blame those dimples. 

The fact that we do not know JGY’s intent really shows his lack of 忠. If You Stand For Nothing, JGY, What Will You Fall For? (Answer: Himself and that is not 忠)

孝 - filial piety (deference to your lineage)

So for 孝, you’re supposed to respect your parents, honor your parents, and defer to your parents. What are you not supposed to do? Kill you father. That’s what.

So this should’ve been a really short section because that’s pretty cut and dry. But I want to look at what JGY says to JGS when JGY brings in Sisi and the other women. 

(He’s so creepy in this picture! *shudders*)

“父亲,我给你找来了你最爱的女人. 有很多个. 你高兴吗?”

“Father, I have brought you your favorite -- women. There are many. Are you happy?”

(Translation note: you can translate the line as your favorite women or your favorite -- women. I chose to translate it as the latter due to the context.)

First of all, the tone. JGY’s voice is breathy. I can almost hear a smile. He has zero moral qualms about this. He addresses his father as father, not dad or anything close. But he does acknowledge that relationship. And then he says he’s brought JGS’s favorite. There’s a slight emphasis on the favorite there. And it’s creepy. JGY adds the next line and goose bumps start to form on my skin. He knows his father’s sins and he’s punishing his father with it. Why are you doing this JGY?! And at the end, when it asks “Are you happy?” his voice is so sinister I want to scream. JGY clearly knows what he’s doing. He knows exactly what it means to be 孝 and chooses to make a mockery of 孝, to make a mockery of his father, and to kill his father. 

And then, after he watches JGS die, he tells Sisi and the other women to continue -- to desecrate JGS’s body. This is about as un-孝 as one can get! Remember, WWX and JC were willing to die to get JFM and YZY’s bodies back so they could be cremated and honored. The difference here is night and day! Yes, JGY was very good to his mother, including building a Guanyin Statue in her likeness and sparing Sisi who was a friend of his mother’s, but I cannot get over how much of an abomination he was toward JGS (even if JGS deserved an awful death).

仁 - benevolence, humanity, love of man

JGY has no 仁. Does JGY love anyone other than himself? Maybe his mom. (He might have some 仁 towards Su Sh*t She but that’s only suggested by the last couple of episodes.) That’s really it. He might have loved Jin Ling as his nephew. He might have loved LXC for LXC’s kindness and brotherhood. He might have loved Qin Su as whatever relationship he thinks they had. But when push comes to shove, JGY has zero benevolence towards anyone. He’s willing to kill Qin Su, take Jin Ling hostage, and take LXC hostage. (He also has no 义 but that’s the next section!)

And there’s ep 23. When LXC, JGS, and NMJ were discussing what to do with the Wens,  JGY suggested the Wens be imprisoned at QiongQi Path. Since WRH had ordered the slaughter of multiple clans, including the Jiangs at Lotus Pier, doing the same to him would not be considered unreasonable. Ruthless, yes, but a good show of might and order. This acceptance of murder is due to the concept of 诛九族. 诛九族 (zhū jiǔ zú) is one of the most severe punishments in ancient China. The character breakdown makes it fairly self explanatory:

诛 - to execute, kill, put to death

九 - nine

族 - family, clan,ethnic group, or tribe

诛九族 condemns you and your entire family to death (Depending on the source, some say it’s you + 8 types of relatives. Some say it’s everyone related to you from 4 generations above to 4 generations below).

By suggesting the Wen remnants be imprisoned and not slaughtered, JGY presented himself as 仁. However, by turning around and slaughtering the people per JGS’s wishes, JGY knowingly chose the immoral path where blood flowed like rivers. 

(Also! The way this shot pans down makes me think about how JGY is descending into a hell of his own making...)

义-  righteousness and code of brotherhood

Good god, 义. I have so many feelings about 义. Let’s start with some history because CONTEXT is so important. So when you ask a chinese person on the street to give you an example of 义, I’m willing to bet one of the most common answers you will get is 桃园结义 (tao yuan jie yi, or peach garden/grove establishment of brotherhood). This is THE story of fraternal love between non-blood related men. 

So quick and dirty synopsis of 桃园结义 and the three kingdoms story (I actually haven’t read it and it’s been a while since I actually tried to figure out the plot… so hopefully this is all correct!). Three men (刘备、关羽、张飞/ Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei) met on the streets, fought each other, became besties, and decided to start a rebellion. They took over one third of the country with the oldest (刘备) being the monarch and the other two working at his side (a little Yunmeng bros feel there, right? You’ll be the leader, I’ll be your right hand man). And they died for each other. 关羽 was the first to go. To seek revenge, 张飞 worked his men to the rebellion. Two of 张飞’s subordinates ultimately decapitated him while he was sleeping and brought it to their enemy. 张飞’s head and body are buried in two different cities in China (doesn’t this make you think of NMJ’s fate? Because it did when I was thinking about this and I wanted to cry. Also, 张飞 started out as a butcher. SERIOUSLY CQL/MDZS, can we pretend to be SUBTLE!?). 刘备 continued seeking revenge. Prior to 关羽’s death, the three kingdoms were in semi-equilibrium where the two smaller ones were allied against the larger. However, 关羽 being killed by their kinda-ally destroyed the delicate balance between the three kingdoms. 刘备 could’ve tried to make peace but he wasn’t going to let his sworn brother’s murder go unavenged. They all died in the end but with honor and brotherhood intact. 刘备 and 张飞’s determination to avenge 关羽’s death epitomizes the virtue of 义. They are willing to die for eachother. 

In CQL the parallelism to the 桃园结义 imagery is obvious to anyone who has a cultural background that screams Romance of Three Kingdoms at you. Let’s take a look, ok?  

A quick Google image search yields these images (I couldn’t choose): 

You know what they look like? This (from ep 40): 

You know what 桃园结义 looks like when mainland China made a live action? This: 

And you know what that reminds me of in CQL (ep 23)? 

Are you freaking out now about the visual parallels? Ok. Good. Because we’re moving onto a tiny bit of text comparison because i’m excited and i can. 

Per Romance of Three Kingdoms (note: historically inspired novel, not history), 刘备、关羽、张飞 swore the following oath: 

“念刘备、关羽、张飞，

Hope that Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei

虽然异姓，既结为兄弟，

Even though we have different last names,since we have sworn to be brothers

则同心协力，救困扶危；

Then let us unite our hearts and efforts towards helping the needy

上报国家，下安黎庶。

Repaying our country, bringing peace to the people.

不求同年同月同日生，

We do not ask to be born on the same day of the same month of the same year

只愿同年同月同日死。

But hope to die on the same day of the same month of the same year

皇天后土，实鉴此心，

Heaven and earth, verify our hearts

背义忘恩，天人共戮！”

If we turn our backs to righteousness and forget charity, may we be slaughtered by all. 

Now, let’s look at the oath said by the 3zun:

“神明在上。

Brilliant gods above, 

今日我兄弟三人在此立下重誓，

Today, we three brothers swear a solemn oath here 

上报仙门，下安黎庶 ， 

To repay our cultivation sects, To bring peace to the people.

天地同证，如有异心，

Heaven and earth be our witnesses. If we become disloyal, 

千夫所指，天人共怒”

May a thousand men point their fingers at us and may we be incite the anger of all

Even some of the wording is verbatim. The parts I bolded are what I was excited by since they’re either parallel or verbatim. 

The first set of lines: 上报国家，下安黎庶 and 上报仙门，下安黎庶 . (Remember when I guessed in my WWX post that since there are no countries, the cultivation sects are the target of 忠? This is my proof that I was right!) My hubris aside, this is the part of their oath where they swear to be both 忠 and 仁 together. The wording is verbatim except for the part that doesn’t apply to the CQL universe! 

The second set of lines: 天人共戮 vs 天人共怒. The sentence/phrase format and message is identical-- betray this oath and incur wrath.  (I can’t help but headcanon NMJ wanted to say 天人共戮 because it’s so much more metal but JGY was like, that’s really severe and convinced LXC to side with him to get it changed.)

Even the structure of the oaths are similar. Both oaths start with an introduction (we are three who want to be brothers), both oaths ask the heaven and earth to see them (Heaven and earth, verify our hearts & heaven and earth be our witnesses), and both oaths call upon the wrath of the people for vindication in case of betrayal. The CQL version is an abridged version of the three kingdoms oath and the writers set that up along with all the imagery because they want us to be constantly thinking about the three kingdoms bros and their amazing “even after death we’re still brothers” sense of 义.  They want us to compare JGY’s 义 with that 义 and find JGY lacking. 

The obvious betrayal of 义 is NMJ’s death.  Not only is JGY the cause of NMJ’s death, he butchers (i’m cringing at my own pun... but it’s so accurate) NMJ’s body so that NMJ’s spirit cannot rest. 

But, to me, what JGY does to LXC is betrayal on par with what he does to NMJ (and not dissimilar to what Xue Yang does to Xiao Xingchen). As we went over in the section about 仁, JGY says one thing so that LXC suggest JGY handles the matter. When everyone leaves, JGY does the un-仁 thing, essentially with LXC’s blessing. JGY kills NMJ but he does it by asking LXC to teach him how to play guqin. LXC becomes an unknowing accomplice (like XXC who becomes the killer of tongueless victims of corpse poison). 

So remember in my WWX post how I said WWX took on what he perceived as JC’s debts so JC doesn’t end up 不仁不义? JGY says one thing and does another in front of LXC. He knows LXC cares deeply about being righteous and kind. He knows LXC wants to do good. And he leads LXC down a path of self doubt and regret. LXC ends up teaching JGY the techniques that kill NMJ. LXC lets JGY handle the Wen remnants. Thus, unlike WWX who tries to absolve JC, JGY intentionally puts LXC into the position of 不仁不义. 

Can WWX and JGY be more diametrically opposed (foes)?

[missholland]

“Shouldn’t I hate you? Can’t I hate you?”

“Why do you treat me like a fool?”

Jiang Cheng tearfully asked his adopted brother, and we could all feel the pain in his voice. He must have held on to these wonders for a very long time, even beyond the past 16 years when WWX was presumably dead.

JC grew up with WWX, and despite a rough start of having his puppies sent away, the two truly became close as a little JC promised to chase dogs away for WWX. I don’t have a brother, so I can’t personally relate to what it’s like living with one. I guess the fact that JC and WWX are same age supposedly make them best friends too. Male friends rarely sit down and talk about their feelings, let alone young men like these two. 

From the very beginning, we get to know JC as the more disciplined one and constantly looks out to make sure WWX does not cause any trouble. That makes a lot of sense, since JC bares the heavy responsibility of being the next Jiang clan leader, on top of enduring his father’s tough love and his mother’s unpleasantness toward WWX. For those who instantly fell in love with WWX’s free spirit, JC comes across as a massive killjoy.

Just think about it, the two did quarrel quite often growing up, as boys do. I’m not sure when it started, but WWX eventually develops a habit of not telling JC things. He could be seen regularly dismissing JC whenever the latter asks him a question. We got to see this several times during their studies at Cloud Recesses, and it’s likely JC justified it as WWX’s newly developed attention to LWJ. JC’s envy cannot be anymore obvious - from his rolling eyes every time WWX is around LWJ to snarky comments like ‘You’re so close to LWJ now, just stay in Cloud Recesses and don’t bother coming back to Lotus Pier’. As much as we all ship young WangXian, wouldn’t you be really upset if you were in JC’s position?

JC has a lot more to lose than WWX - his family, his clan’s reputation. Considering how his father tended to maintain a passive position whenever it comes to clan politics, JC would follow through with the stay-out-of-trouble mindset and prefer as least attention as possible during chaos. Unfortunately, that’s not how WWX operates. He simply cannot stand idly by when someone is in trouble. There is no such thing as ‘those irrelevant’ to him. If the weak is being bullied, he will step in to help in a heartbeat. This is why WWX is MUCH better off being a free agent like Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan. Once you live that major clan life, every step you take and every move you make represent your sect, not just yourself, no matter how many times you keep saying ‘Hey, you can slander me, but not Yunmeng Jiang clan’. JC knows this very well, and in his head he has to be the adult/bad cop to WWX as there is really no choice.

There is nothing wrong with having that ethos. JC just has completely different priority comparing to WWX, and that’s what he based on when making decision. JC’s intention has always been about protecting WWX, even after the event in Qiongqi Way. The reason for the downfall of their relationship comes from both sides: JC doesn’t know how to ask, and WWX doesn’t want to answer. Maybe because JC keeps go on and on about WWX better not bringing trouble to Jiang clan, WWX finds it more difficult to confine in him with his problems and eventually not tell him at all. Or, deep down, WWX already knows JC treasures completely different values. Hence, it is no use to share this sort of thing with him. That is obviously different from his experience with LWJ, as they made the same promise in front of Master Lan Yi in the cold cave and under the rabbit lantern. All of the above, in addition to JC not being conversationally gifted, keep the brothers further and further away until their misunderstanding becomes too deep to resolve.

I’m not team JC, but I feel for him when it comes to holding on to things. He remembers stuff and doesn’t let go easily. So when his adopted brother said ‘I will be your subordinate and assist you for life when you become clan leader’, that promise meant a lot more to him than the person who made (and broke) it. Besides, JC already lost his parents. With his sister getting married, he was practically all alone in rebuilding Lotus Pier and WWX’s help was supposed to be his greatest asset. 

But all he received in return is a flaky assistant who became depressed, drank all day, nowhere to be found when needed and just seem to give up life in general. JC probably considered him already having too much go on, and it’s just easier for him to scold others instead of holding back for one second to think ‘What happened to him? I need to find out and sort him out!’. We all know how everything went down after that, and it really echoes what JGY said to JC in episode 49: ‘If you had treated WWX better, none of this would have happened’.

Honestly, JC doesn’t deserve to be treated like a fool, which was what WWX kinda did to him. He started telling all of his burdens revolving WWX, from how WWX had always been winning in everything - from talent to chivalry, from the affection of their father/sister to the cost of their own lives. But that’s not the point. JC was aware of all that, but he was definitely never jealous of WWX’s qualities in a negative way. JC did not care about any of that, as long as WWX remained his loyal best friend/brother. 

This is where his actual deepest frustration unfolded - ‘What hardship could you not tell me’ is the most haunting question I’ve heard. JC knew there was a reason, but could not figure out why he was not the one WWX went to for help. He was getting to that point when capturing WWX in Qinghe, asking why WWX went elsewhere rather than Lotus Pier once he was resurrected. As ridiculous that question might be (I mean, would your first point of contact after coming back to life be the person who wanted to kill you before?), it was the confused and desperate little brother inside Jiang clan leader’s hard ass cover crying for answer from his former best friend/brother.

If there was ever any jealousy inside JC, I would think it gotta be toward LWJ. Sure, the closeness with WWX is one thing, but it’s weird to compare your brotherhood to.... you know, romantic/spiritual soulmate-level bond. I might be stretching this, but it just seems to me JC is somewhat envious of how LWJ can confidently (maybe, in his head, blindly) stand by WWX post-resurrection. 

The whole ‘oh you’ve been everywhere for 16 years looking for someone’ comment - I mean really JC, weren’t you doing the same too? The dirty look he gave LWJ when he took out Bichen and pointed toward Jin Clan’s guards to protect WWX at Jinlintai, when LWJ stood next to WWX against the cultivation world at Burial Mounds, when LWJ remained by WWX at Lotus Pier’s doorstep and even willing to wait OUTSIDE with him, when LWJ was taken to offer some incense to his family, and when LWJ still fiercely shielded WWX while having his spiritual power sealed at Guanyin Temple.

Deep down JC never stops loving his brother, but he’s just not willing to let go of the past. And sadly, he has probably never really believed in WWX anyway. A lot of people may not be able to stan JC, but it’s still heart-breaking regardless thinking about how his relationship with WWX deteriorates through time. I guess the only comforting thing is that by the end of the series, both of them can move on with their lives. And hopefully, whenever they think of each other, it’s only with the good memories of sitting together eating shijie’s lotus soup.

[baijingshen]

Ship Bias -- for Nie Mingjue?

Send ‘Ship Bias’ and I will share up to 5 Ships I have a bias for for my muse! (+ specify a muse)

1. Life. That’s my favorite ship for Mingjue. Just.. let him live, please. Let him live a long and happy(/ier) life without evil music and blade spirits but lots of love and good food and morally flawless friends (jk, he needs to chill a bit). 2. Meng Yao. I’m so weak for this ship. It’s so painful and beautiful and did I mention painful?? They mean so much to each other and Mingjue is one of the few people who ever showed Meng Yao kindness and respect and appreciation - and I’ll be upset until the end of time that it had to end the way it did. Thank the gods fanfics and rp exists so we can write fix-it AUs for this and mend my broken heart (and NMJ’s broken body). I think NMJ and JGY have one of the most intriguing relationships in the series, even if you don’t want to regard them as a romantic ship. I hope they got to have a nice few hundred years in their shared grave to talk it out and make up u__u. 3. Lan Xichen. Xichen was Mingjue’s teenage crush and you can pry that hc out of my cold dead hands. Whether he was his first kiss, first experience, first everything but then they went separate ways or whether Mingjue just loved and loved but then convinced himself he needs to give up on this because they’re both future sect leaders, these two always have a history of love for me. Romantic partner or not, Lan Xichen is simply Mingjue’s favorite person in the world. He holds so much respect and love for him, being around him is soothing his soul even before he starts playing his chill music. I think, in a way, Xichen represents all that’s good and right in this world for Mingjue. 4. Jiang Cheng. I LOVE this ship. They’d be so cute together. Also very angry couple, I guess. What I like about them is that they have similar view and attitudes toward the cultivation world. They’re righteous leaders, they’re warriors who seek/find glory in battle, they value family above all. Jiang Cheng is definitely the kind of man Mingjue respects and Mingjue is someone JC looks up to and can rely on without question. I imagine they’d be a bit of an explosive couple, but also very caring and loving and sincere. 5. Wen Qing. Please. They would be amazing together. I keep dreaming of a world in which NMJ agreed to saving the innocent Wens and WQ and WN got to stay at the Unclean Realm. They’d finally have a good home, they’d be save, Wen Qing could study her medicine without constantly having to worry about something happening to her or her brother. In a scenario in which they’d agree that the siblings are not to be counted to the rest of the Wen Clan, I think NMJ could appreciate them both regardless of their last name and connection to WRH. AND PLEASE THINK ABOUT HOW AWKWARD HE’D BE AROUND WQ ONCE HE CAUGHT FEELINGS, making a dumbass of himself trying to court her. Also Wen Qing knocking him out with her needles when he’s being stubborn about his health/qi ?? Yes please. I blame @pyreruin and @spelllbound a lot for loving this ship.

[gloriousmonsters]

Corny of me perhaps, but given the aro hearts on the character ask game, can you do it for a character you have an aro headcanon for? Or could plausibly see as aro if you don't have any firm headcanons?

No, I think it’s a great idea! And I’ll go with JGY, since writing sainted, untainted has got me thinking about the particular way I write him as aro again.

one aspect about them i love 

god what. what to pick. okay I love that despite being profoundly unsympathetic toward people he doesn’t care about and being capable of intense cruelty on a few special occasions, he’s effusively kind and affectionate toward people he cares about? like, him and qin su are known as a fairy tale romance in the jianghu before shit is revealed, and mxtx even uses the ‘guiding her along as if concerned she might trip’ note that she later used with the main pairing in TGCF. going off either a beginning where lxc was in debt to him (book) or had been nice to him once (cql) he gives lxc over a decade of friendship where (as he points out, when finally pissed off/hurt enough to bring it up) he never asked repayment for anything he did for lxc, and tried to not even make him feel awkward about it! There’s of course his indulgent-elder-brother attitude toward Xue Yang in Villainous Friends, reassuring him not to stress about his projects and buying him dumplings. And, obviously dear to my heart, kicking off his relationship with Su Minshan not only by remembering him, but by warmly complimenting him, and continuing to treat him with kindness and respect until the end. (A tiny detail that I’m unreasonably sad doesn’t get adapted in either CQL or the donghua is that WWX observes the Jin cultivators treating SMS with ‘great respect’ as well... if you’re dear to JGY, you feel welcomed at Jinlintai.)

Just. The contrast between the unquestionable horror of some of the things he does, and the way he can still be a freaking sun in the warmth he puts out, in the way people are drawn to and revolve around him, is so juicy to me, and then there’s the emotional aspect of him coming from a profoundly ugly background that was extremely scarce on gentleness, consideration and kindness, and giving those things out with seemingly bottomless generosity to the people he cares for.

(It’s also very painful that the person who most likely gave him those things, as much as she could, is dead by the time he’s gone far enough to possibly return the favor to her. I’d build a temple to her too, man.)

one aspect i wish more people understood about them 

mmm this is obviously very subjective bc JGY is a somewhat mysterious character, how you interpret his inner workings depends heavily on what you’re bringing to the table, etc. I personally wish more people leaned toward my interpretation that he’s very secure in himself (for a given value)- he deeply believes in the correctness of his own opinions, very infrequently questions himself or feels regret, and has a remarkably resilient sense of self-worth for a guy who’s had people try to put it down his whole life. I genuinely don’t think JGY, past a certain point in his life, has ever desperately wanted anyone’s approval. (His argument with NMJ and his conversation about his crimes with LXC are both triggered by very specific events--he doesn’t spontaneously seek understanding from them, he feels driven to try and extract it due to the situation.)

But obviously that’s just my onion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

one (or more) headcanon(s) i have about this character 

This feels like a good place to touch on the aro thing! If you’ve read my suyao fics you’ve probably noticed that from JGY’s POV, he pretty much exclusively thinks of SMS as his ‘friend’, and tends to use ‘affection’ or ‘fondness’ rather than ‘love’. Obviously there’s no such term in ancient fantasy China, and I don’t know if there’s even a concept lol, but I think that how JGY views it is... that he’s just a grounded person, not sentimental, not prone to exaggeration (yes he is That aro person that thinks all the people talking about love must be just being hyperbolic, they don’t really feel like that). I also tend to write him as having a quality similar to me, where sometimes (more often when he was younger) he’d develop intense crushes on people from some amount of distance, only to have the feelings either vanish or significantly mellow and change the moment he gets closer to that person. Not to say his feelings can’t still be intense, but they’re ~differently flavored~ even when they do ramp up. Other than that there’s not much I can think of to say on the matter, haha.

free bonus headcanon: love language of gifts, 100%. Essentially a sugar daddy to everyone he likes when he becomes Chief Cultivator and has full control over the budget. He’s by no means a spendthrift, but he simply CAN’T imagine one of er-ge’s visits passing without JGY giving him some tastefully selected present. Qin Su cannot relate to any of the ladies she speaks to bemoaning how long it’s been since their husbands gifted them something; she had to (lovingly) put a limit on the number per season just a week ago. 70% of Moling Su’s library and 80% of their rare plants can be sourced back to him if anyone bothered to check.

one character i love seeing them interact with 

striving not to put sms for both this and the next question... split between xue yang and nie mingjue. xue yang because it endlessly delights my heart, nie mingue because the scenes between them are almost 100% guaranteed to be high drama in the best possible way.

one character i wish they would interact with/interact with more 

SMS ;-; i’m living on like one and a half scenes of canon interaction here

one (or more) headcanon(s) i have that involve them and one other character

has absolutely lent sms his jade token so sms can teleport into the gusu lan forbidden library without triggering any alarms. you think jgy wants to go through all those books? no. part of being a boss is outsourcing work to someone who enjoys it more than you. and yes that means sms is going to be ranting for two hours about musical combat theory and hundred-year-old Lan scandals when he comes back, but it’s not too much of a price to pay.

[ouyangzizhensdad]

Hey I enjoy your metas and even ramblings so I just wanted to ask a question and let you have at it. How do you think NMJ would feel about NHS avenging him? Proud that he could pull it off? If not proud at least impressed? Or completely disappointed that he would stoop to such a level?

Hi anon, 

Glad that you are enjoying the meta and (even!😉) the ramblings. 

That’s a very interesting question. In the novel, we are shown that NMJ takes revenge and the idea of justice very seriously, especially when wrongs were done to a member of his family. So I think it is fair to say that Nie Mingjue would have no quarrels with the abstract idea of his step-half-brother avenging his death. 

Lan Xichen knew that because of what happened to his father, Nie Mingjue abhorred Wen-dogs more than anything, especially with how intolerable he was toward evil.

But, as the same passage mentions, he also cannot tolerate evil. Something reiterated more than once in the novel.

No matter dead or alive, the person Jin Guangyao was most scared of was none but this sworn brother of his whose temper tolerated no evil.

He has a very rigid understanding of right and wrong, and feels very confident that he can determine right from wrong. He is portrayed as someone who sees a single path to righteousness, and lives his life making sure he never strays from that path. If doing the right thing requires him to talk back to an elder, for instance, then so be it. 

In spite of Nie Mingjue being a junior to Jin Guangshan, he conducted himself in a strict manner and refused to tolerate Xue Yang no matter what. With an angry lecture, Jin Guangshan was left with no words and a great deal of embarrassment. Nie Mingjue, as the irritable person he was, unsheathed his saber on the spot with the intention of killing Xue Yang. [...] The LanlingJin Sect was indeed the sect with the thickest face. Although, on Jinling Tower, it promised in front of all of the sects that Xue Yang would be executed, when it left Nie Mingjue’s sight, it immediately shut Xue Yang into the dungeons and changed the original decision to a life sentence. Hearing about the matter, Nie Mingjue was enraged and pressed on them again. The LanlingJin Sect rambled about, refusing to give him Xue Yang no matter how hard he tried. All of the other sects watched them from the sidelines, but, shortly afterward, Nie Mingjue passed away from a qi deviation.

And of course he is uncompromising in his judgement of others who does not follow the same path and believes in such cases that punishment is always deserved/a form of justice. Of course, the narration also underlines that this has not only to do with NMJ’s strong sense of ethics, but also his emotional intensity and temper. NMJ is prone to anger and it is said that people know not to argue their cases because “the more one tried to explain, the angrier he was”. As well, NMJ is also short-sighted in that he believes that others follow a righteous path, that justice and fairness will prevail as if other concerns and matters didn’t end up factoring in the balance.

Meng Yao looked up at once. Nie Mingjue continued, “On your own, go confess to the LanlingJin Sect and receive your punishment. Let them deal with you whichever way they deem fit.”

With a moment of hesitation, Meng Yao replied, “…Chifeng-Zun, I can’t give up now that I’m already here.”

Nie Mingjue, “To get here, you took the wrong path.”

Meng Yao, “You’re going to be sending me to my death.”

Nie Mingjue, “If your words are true, it won’t happen. Go, reflect, and turn over a new leaf.”

Of course, it’s not like we only see him push for punishments: he is shown to be as willing to reward righteousness.

Under such circumstances, Meng Yao, the one whom relentlessly cleared the battlefield and helped the commoners after each battle, received more and more attention from Nie Mingjue. A few times later, Nie Mingjue directly promoted him to his side to be his deputy.

That path to righteousness is also seemingly about the methods used. He values those who stand up for their beliefs, head on, without artifice. He is, himself, someone who does things in a “direct, forceful fashion".

[Talking about MianMian] “The woman has much more backbone than the mob of her sect,” said Nie Mingjue.

And, of course, he judges those who use cunning, underhanded ways.

Behind the sea of Sparks Amidst Snow, the Venerated Trio gathered. Lan Xichen spoke, “Brother, you have worked hard.”

Jin Guangyao grinned, “It wasn’t hard work. Who had to work hard was Jiang-zongzhu’s table. He clenched a few of its parts to crumbles. Looks like he really was angered.”

Nie Mingjue walked over, “All clever talk—hard work indeed.”

His relationship with Meng Yao disintegrated because he could not respect or trust the way he operated. He despised his lies, his two-facedness, the calculated nature of his plots. 

Nie Mingjue looked at him, who shivered as tears gleamed in his eyes. The contrast between the scene and how he calmly killed someone was too stark. The impact was so great that the image still hadn’t faded from his mind. He spoke, “Meng Yao, let me ask you. The first time I saw you, did you purposely act for me in that pitiful way, so that I’d come to your rescue? If I didn’t, would you have done what you did today and killed all of those people?”

Meng Yao’s Adam’s apple bobbed, where a drop of cold sweat rolled off. Just as he was about to speak, Nie Mingjue ordered, “Don’t lie in front of me!”

Taking all of that into account, I think it’s fair to extrapolate that NMJ would have completely disapproved of NHS’s revenge plot. If NHS had gone to stand in front of JGY, exposed all he knew and challenged him to a duel--then NMJ probably couldn’t have been prouder. But the lying? The long con, the two-facedness of hiding behind his yiwensanbuzhi persona? The collateral damage? The manipulation of others to achieve his means? NMJ wouldn’t have stood by it, would have probably seen it as evil, and I think that this is something that NHS must at least be aware of, deep down. But considering that NHS never managed to meet NMJ’s standards in terms of his schooling and cultivation (even if NMJ loved him all the same), it probably wasn’t too difficult to justify doing things in a manner that would absolutely contradict what NMJ valued. After all, he could never be the kind of man that his brother wanted him to grow up to be, never could be the same kind of sect leader he or their father were. 

And I think that was absolutely intentional on MXTX’s part, to have this sort of dramatic irony to the revenge that NMJ’s resentful corpse ultimately gets to have. His corpse gets to attack and straightforwardly take revenge on JGY, but the methods needed to bring him there made his step-half-brother into the very sort of man he despised and distrusted.

[gloriousmonsters]

Jin Guangyao?

How I feel about this character:

honestly I just adore him, both from a narrative/writing standpoint--like, what an amazing foil for wwx, what a nuanced and sympathetic but still genuinely kinda terrifying antagonist conveyed in (the book especially) such a comparatively small space--and a ‘he’s my son and i just want good things for him forever’ standpoint. i love that he has (imo) like 0 affective empathy but is extremely affectionate and kind to people he likes--I have a huge fondness for characters, especially villains, who don’t ‘love’ in a conventional way but are still very warm to their people. i love that he’s the character who works hardest and rises highest in the narrative, and it’s observed in the novel that he has a classic rags-to-riches story (that turns REALLY dark when you start kicking over rocks :D) i love that he canonically has villainous friends!! this is just turning into a list of things i love but that’s just how i feel about him, okay, it’s pure love all the way down

All the people I ship romantically with this character: as always when i’m talking about it, take ‘romance’ with a grain of salt and a wiggly hand gesture (especially since i see jgy as being... possibly on the aro spectrum? still going back and forth and mostly it’s a shrug emoji but. that’s a thing). anyway. first and foremost in my heart is su minshan, because (a) him + jgy have/have potentional for a lot of tropes I like in shipping, (b) my love for a thing is always increased if very few other people like it. i Will keep talking about suyao until i die or leave the fandom and that is a threat

lan xichen’s a gimme; I don’t talk much about xiyao because (a) so many other people talk about it I don’t feel the need to as much (b) when i do have thoughts i feel shy about expressing them lol. BUT i do love them, a great deal; they’re Such a good good crunchy pairing, and on the softer side I have a huge weakness for pairings that work to create comfort and support for each other in a difficult world

nmj’s weird because like. i think they Had a relationship but i don’t ship it. if that makes sense.

My non-romantic OTP for this character: I debated whether to put xue yang in the shipping section but putting him here felt more Right. rest assured i think they have had sex, though. platonic + fwb xueyao is the stuff of the gods and there needs to be more of it. i know their relationship had its rocky patches, but i will forever claim the villainous friends extra as the purest canon. they’re two people who have, frankly, SO many reasons not to be friendly, but they become genuine friends anyway! and have traumatized blue-and-orange-morality villain solidarity! god i love them

My unpopular opinion about this character: i’m currently Really feeling how like. whatever corner of the fandom you’re in can make wildly different things feel like an unpopular opinion, when in another corner it’s a given? so I’m never quite sure what qualifies as unpopular. but uh, i’ll just wildly toss out a few i feel like at least some people might not agree with, just for fun

i. there is practically nothing he’d ‘rather die than’ because he values his life very highly, but life in any kind of captivity is one of the only things that could drive him to that point. ii. he has a lot of issues around sex/being sexual (especially in a way that isn’t just fulfilling his partner’s desires. iii. there are exceptions (xue yang) but primarily his Type is (a) nice (to him) (b) either self-controlled or repressed/shy in a way that manifests similarly (c) a little bit dumb one way or another, like if he cannot lovingly think ‘idiot’ about someone he is not interested.

One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon: honestly while I love a good fix it his death was SO good and dramatic and gay and he got like 3 separate shakespeare villain speeches, i’m not even mad about it. primarily I just wish we’d gotten to see more of his ‘behind the scenes’ life, like give me an extra villainous friends style story or adapt that to film. orr in terms of changing canon events, I wish his mom could have lived long enough he could have taken care of her for even a little while before she died, because his relationship w his mom kills me whenever i think about it

[xiyao-feels]

Nie//yao (MDZS)

So NMJ/JGY is actually getting two versions, because my read on them is wildly different for MDZS vs CQL.

In MDZS I...don't ship it? I mean, there just doesn't seem to be to be anything there at all of a romantic or sexual nature. It's not that they don't care about each other, they clearly do, but it's in a way that is...NMJ as substitute father, JGY as substitute brother, and heavily, heavily inflected by their (current and then former) relationship as superior and subordinate.

Putting this behind a cut because a) it's me explaining at breath length with quotes why I don't think they have a romantic or sexual relationship and I don't want people to have to see that unless they want and b) accordingly it is REALLY LONG and I also don't want to clutter people's dashes, so.

Actually backing up a step, I don't see MDZS NMJ as being attracted to anyone, that's not really specific to JGY. I tend to read him as aspec, tbh. So theoretically he could have romantic feelings about JGY without being attracted to him—I think he may have some quasi-romantic feelings for LXC, though I don't think he conceptualizes it that way—but... honestly, it's not really clear to me that he even likes JGY as a person.

I'm not saying he doesn't like JGY! He clearly does, at least before MY tricks him and flees. But it doesn't seem to have anything to do with MY's personality, as opposed to like—MY being really competent and conducting himself well.

Some quotes about what exactly NMJ values about JGY:

'Nie MingJue interrupted him, “I promoted you not because I wanted you to give back anything out of gratitude. I simply thought that you should stay in this position, since you are capable enough and your conduct is to my liking. If you really want to pay me back, just kill a few more of those Wen-dogs on the battlefield!”'

'After [Meng Yao] left [for Langya], Nie MingJue switched to another deputy. Wei WuXian, however, felt that the new one was always a few beats slower. Meng Yao was an unusually clever talent. He could understand what wasn’t said, and perform to the best with the simplest orders. He was efficient and never slacked. Anyone used to him wouldn’t be able to refrain from comparing him with others.'

'Nie MingJue was never close to people. He rarely opened up to anyone. Though he finally managed to obtain a competent, trustworthy subordinate, whose character and capabilities he approved, he found that the subordinate’s true colors were nothing like what he had thought they were. It was only natural that his reaction was so extreme.'

'Wei WuXian had once found it strange as well. Ever since Meng Yao betrayed the QingheNie Sect, the relationship between Nie MingJue and him hadn’t been the same as before. Then why did they later become sworn brothers? From his observations, aside from how Lan XiChen brought it up, having always hoped that the two would reconcile, the most important factor was probably the gratitude of saving his life and writing the letters. To be precise, in his past battles, he had more-or-less depended on the information that Meng Yao sent over through Lan XiChen. He still thought that Jin GuangYao was a talented person whom one would rarely come upon, and intended on leading him back onto the right path. However, Jin GuangYao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin GuangYao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie HuaiSang.'

Jin GuangYao spoke with dejection, “But, Brother, didn’t you hear what he said in the oath? Every sentence meant something more. ‘Face a thousand accusing fingers, be torn from limb to limb’—this was clearly a warning for me. I… I’ve never heard of such an oath before.”

Lan XiChen replied in a gentle voice, “He said ‘if one were to think otherwise’. Do you think otherwise? If not, then why should you worry over it so much?"

Jin GuangYao, “I don’t, but Brother has already decided that I do, so what can I do?”

Lan XiChen, “He has always cherished your talent, hoping that you would choose the right path.”

You might notice a recurring theme here: there's a lot of focus JGY's competence and conduct. But anything about who JGY is as a person? Not so much.

They clearly had a good superior/subordinate relationship going on, albeit one in which NMJ was missing a lot of context (see just behave well and show people up, plus the you're missing a solid foundation thing). But it does seem to be basically professional. WWX describes them as conversing "peaceably, even impressively" in contrast to "his future self, always being scolded by Nie MingJue" and "those jokes of how 'LianFang-Zun fled whenever he heard that ChiFeng-Zun arrived,'" and.... that's kind of it. The closest we get to them as friends is them talking together with LXC after NMJ tells MY he will give him a letter of recommendation and send him to his father; as WWX describes it, "The three chatted back and forth, at times serious, yet at times light. The conversation was much more relaxed than when they had been in the living room. Listening to their chatter, Wei WuXian often wanted to get a word in as well, yet he was unable to do so."

That's definitely not nothing! But it's also the most we ever get, only shows up the once, and is explicitly contrasted with their conversation from earlier. Moreover, I'm pretty sure LXC's presence is a necessary part of things; NMJ tends to respond differently to LXC than to other people (even just earlier in this chapter, we're told that while "Nie MingJue had never been one for humour," "in front of Lan XiChen his expression eased"), and WWX explicitly notes LXC's conversation skills in the context of this conversation: "At this point in time, their relationship really isn't bad. Zewu-Jun is actually quite good at holding conversations, so why is Lan Zhan so bad at it?"

In addition, I'd say that looking at the early part of that conversation is quite telling; while LXC and MY are sitting together as equals, MY stand up at once the moment NMJ interrupts, and doesn't sit even after NMJ tells him to do so (I think he probably does take a seat at some point, but the narrative doesn't actually tell us when). Moreover, MY seems to be worried that NMJ will be offended by a possible lack of gratitude on MY's part ("Sect Leader Nie, if you heard everything, then you should've also heard me say that..."), and the only objection he expresses to leaving is precisely that he owes NMJ a debt of gratitude, not anything to do with, like, missing him. To me all the evidence suggests that while they had a close relationship, it was not a /personal/ relationship, but fundamentally one of superior and subordinate.

(For a close read of the scene where NMJ, LXC and MY are talking together, I highly recommend @confusion-and-more's post here)

Moving on, let's look at after JGY becomes JGY. They don't seem to particularly spend time together with each other, certainly not for the sake of it. There's a brief moment at the Flower Banquet where NMJ asks JGY why he's wasting his time with XY (who has not at this point in time committed his crime, he just has a reputation), but after JGY makes his excuse and scurries away, NMJ turns away and doesn't seem to seek him out or even pay him any particular attention for the rest of the scene; he only shows up once more, and that's following WWX. (And although JGY-as-replacement-NHS would be a post all on its own, I do think it's interesting to note that the exchange about XY is immediately followed by LXC and LWJ coming over, described in a way that highlights both their impressiveness and their status at brothers—their Twin Jade-ness, one might say.) During the guqin scene, NMJ only speaks once, and it's to address LXC—to protest the inappropriateness of LXC leaking exclusive Lan techniques. When JGY shows up to play the guqin for him the first time, NMJ asks JGY "what did you come here for," which suggests that NMJ is not generally expecting JGY to come by without a specific, concrete reason. The closest they ever seem to get after JGY becomes JGY is during these guqin-playing sessions, and as WWX describes it, "when playing the guqin, the way that the two conversed and got along even had a hint of the peace they had before they fell out"—which is certainly better than there being no peace at all, but which I think suggests there's still at least some tension, given that it's only a "hint."

Now, NMJ certainly cares about JGY, both in the sense of desiring his well-being, at first, and absolutely in the sense of being emotionally invested in him—even after his death, as a fierce corpse his only desire is to kill Jin Guangyao. But while they had a close superior-subordinate relationship—certainly NMJ seems to have felt close to MY—at no point was it a close personal relationship, and I don't think that NMJ even liked JGY (or MY, I'm using the name expansively) as a person, let alone was in love with him.

But mostly so far I've been focusing in NMJ's feelings. What about JGY? Is /he/ in love with NMJ?

Once again, I just don't read him that way. This isn't to say he didn't care for NMJ—he absolutely did! He goes to quite significant lengths to save his life from WRH in the Sun Palace, including quite a lot of risk to MY himself—I analyze that in a lot more depth in the first part of my post here, if you're interested, though I will also note now that he specifically sent for LXC to help NMJ. (You'll have to scroll down some; I'm responding to someone else's post.) Afterwards, he kneels to NMJ and apologizes, I think sincerely, for hurting him and for invoking his pain about his father's death. He certainly conceives of himself as owing a debt of gratitude to NMJ for recognizing him, and he's so overcome when NMJ offers to send him to his father with a letter of recommendation, saying that he didn't promote MY so that MY would owe him, that he quite remarkably can't even find words. NMJ meant a lot to him, and so did NMJ's not defining him in terms of his birth—until he did, of course, at the stairs kick incident. But as far as I can tell, there's nothing to suggest he has /romantic feelings/ for NMJ, and frankly—how can I put this—it does not at all surprise me that JGY isn't in love with someone with a violent temper who is noted at least twice to react to people explaining themselves when he is angry with even more anger, and that's even without the thing where he nearly killed JGY on multiple occasions and called him the son of a prostitute.

No, I think JGY's emotional journey with NMJ goes through three stages: first, he's deeply grateful to him and respects him a great deal, although he's also aware of NMJ's lack of awareness of certain social realities (see: the teacup scene, NMJ yelling at the other Nie cultivators about their treatment of MY and telling MY not to worry as long as his conduct is upright); second, after Sun Palace, still gratitude and respect but also a mounting frustration with his lack of awareness of the implications of JGY's social position and his hypocrisy re: acceptable violence; finally, after the stairs kick when NMJ kicks him down the stairs, almost kills him, and tells him what else can be expected from the son of a prostitute, he is completely done with NMJ, but is still very much scared of him. The gratitude, I've discussed; the frustration, I think is fairly obvious in the speech he gives back to NMJ at the stairs. But I think the fear is often undervalued, so I'm going to pull a bunch of quotes again:

Meng Yao shrunk immediately after his previous outburst. Watching Baxia slash toward him, he sprinted off at once, scared lifeless. Of the two, one striked with madness and the other fled with madness. Both staggered, still soaked in blood. In such amusing circumstances, as Wei WuXian chopped at the future Chief Cultivator, in his heart he split his sides laughing. He thought that if not for how Nie MingJue was under heavy injuries and lacked spiritual power, Meng Yao would probably have been dead already.

Baxia’s strikes were so menacing that Shuoyue had to unsheath. Lan XiChen stopped him, half to support his figure and half to block his attacks, “MingJue-xiong, calm down! Why bother?”

Nie MingJue, “Why don’t you ask what he did?!”

Lan XiChen turned around to look at Meng Yao, his face was full of terror. He stammered as if he didn’t dare speak.

Nie MingJue remained silent, while Baxia and Shuoyue continued. Meng Yao took a glimpse at the glares from the clashes of the saber and the sword, his gaze full of fear. After a while, however, he still took a step forward. He kneeled to Nie MingJue.

A moment later, Nie MingJue still raised his saber. Lan XiChen, “MingJue-xiong!”

Meng Yao shut his eyes. Lan XiChen also tightened his grip on Shuoyue, “Please excuse…”

Before he could finish his sentence, the silver light of the blade slashed down violently, onto a boulder on the side.

Meng Yao flinched from the thunder of the boulder splitting apart. Looking over, he saw that it had been sliced into two halves, from the top to the bottom.

Jin GuangYao nodded. Xue Yang had been infamous ever since he was young. Wei WuXian clearly felt Nie MingJue’s brows knit even tighter. He spoke, “Why are you wasting your time with such a person?”

Jin GuangYao, “The LanlingJin Sect recruited him.”

He didn’t dare to protest any further. Excuse being that he needed to care for the guests, he scurried to the other side.

[part of his speech to NMJ at the stairs] You think that I should be afraid of nothing? Well I'm afraid of everything, even other people!

Within the temple, three people called Nie MingJue’s corpse ‘Brother’ but the three tones were drastically different. Jin GuangYao’s face was full of a drowning fear. His entire body began to shiver. No matter dead or alive, the person Jin GuangYao was most scared of was none but this sworn brother of his whose temper tolerated no evil. As his body shivered, his hands shivered as well, and the bloody guqin string he clutched tightly in his hand also began to shiver.

Clenching his teeth, Jin GuangYao struck a few acupoints of his arm. Amidst the dizziness that came from a loss of blood, he suddenly saw Nie MingJue walk a step towards him, his eyes locked on him. He was immediately half-dead with fear.

Collapsed beside Lan XiChen, Jin GuangYao saw this scene as well. Whether because the bleeding and the pain intensified at his arm and stomach or from some other reason, the glisten of tears could be seen in his eyes. But before he had a chance to catch his breath or lick his wounds, Nie MingJue turned around after he pulled his fist back and stared hungrily in his direction.

The harsh, stern expression on his rigid face held a sense of judgement that was no different from before he died. Even his tears had been scared away as Jin GuangYao turned to Lan XiChen for help, his voice trembling, “Brother…”

I think the stuff with, you know, handling NMJ's fierce corpse and hanging onto his head is often viewed as evidence of JGY's continued emotional investment in NMJ, but... I don't really think so? First of all, NMJ's fierce corpse is completely obsessed with killing JGY. I'll spare you another round of quotes on that because this is already ridiculously long and because it's not at all subtle—it's all over the temple chapters, take a look! And second of all—well, there's ways of getting information from a corpse. In this case, NMJ's resentful energy is so strong that without the protection of his body, papernan WWX is actually sucked into NMJ's memories against his will! Sure, maybe no one would risk it, and maybe no one who risked it would survive, but especially given that NMJ's fierce corpse is completely obsessed with killing JGY, that's a heck of a risk to take. And look at the description of the protections around NMJ's head:

Suddenly, Wei WuXian noticed that one of the shelves were blocked by a curtain. The curtain was covered in sinister, blood-red runes. It was a talisman of forbiddance, one of extreme power.

Jin GuangYao walked over and lifted the curtain.

For a split second, Wei WuXian thought that he had been exposed. After the faint firelight made its way through the curtain, he found that he was enveloped in a shadow. A circular object just happened to be in front of him.

Jin GuangYao stood still, as though he was staring into the eyes of whatever was inside this shelf.

After a moment, he spoke, “Were you the one looking at me?"

Of course, there couldn’t be any response. He was silent for a while, then let down the curtain.

Wei WuXian quietly attached himself to the object. Cold and hard, it seemed to be a helmet. He then turned to the front. As he had expected, he saw a pallid face. The one who sealed the head wanted it to see nothing, hear nothing, speak nothing, and so incantations had been crowded onto the waxen skin. The eyes, the ears, and the mouth were all sealed tightly shut.

There's containment, it's suppressed to all hell and back, and JGY quite justifiably expects it to be murderously obsessed with him, but to me it doesn't suggest a reciprocal obsession—just more fear.

I'll also note that as a strategy for containing the information about his own involvement it's a very successful operation! It failed in the end /eventually/, but the failure needed:

someone who could successfully break into his private treasure room and escape without being caught

who could also perform Empathy or a similar tecnnique on NMJ's head and survive it

who could successfully recreate from memory the altered Empathy song

whom LXC would be willing to listen to

That's a heck of a tall order!

As to being done with NMJ after the stairs, well, listen to what he says to LXC:

Jin GuangYao spoke with dejection, “But, Brother, didn’t you hear what he said in the oath? Every sentence meant something more. ‘Face a thousand accusing fingers, be torn from limb to limb’—this was clearly a warning for me. I… I’ve never heard of such an oath before.”

[...]

Jin GuangYao, “It’s not that I don’t know what’s right and what’s wrong, but that sometimes I really can’t help. Nowadays, I have it bad no matter which side I’m on. I have to ensure that I’m on everyone’s good sides. I wouldn’t care if it were someone else, but have I mistreated our eldest brother in any way? Brother, you heard as well. What did he call me?”

[...]

Jin GuangYao was almost sobbing, “If he could say such a thing when he was angry, then just how does he think of me on a daily basis? Is it that because I couldn’t choose my background, because my mother couldn’t choose her fate, I’ll have to be humiliated by others throughout my whole life? If so, then how is Brother different from the people who look down on me? No matter what I do, in the end, just a sentence and I’m ‘the son of a prostitute’.”

And then of course there's what he says to LXC, in his speech to him at the end: "You, on the other hand, ZeWu-Jun, Sect Leader Lan, are as intolerant of me as Nie MingJue—you refuse to spare me even a single breath of life!"

So—wow, this got very long—I don't ship them, and although I think they have very much mattered emotionally to each other, I don't really see them as ever having been in love with or attracted to each other.

A couple of end notes:

In MDZS, NMJ isn't the first (non-MS) person who recognizes MY's worth, although he is the first person to promote him; by the time NMJ promotes MY MY has already met, rescued, and exchanged intimate confidences with LXC, who respects him greatly and thinks he is highly talented (see again the conversation in Hejian which NMJ overhears/eavedrops on).

I've seen people talk about them not understanding each other, but while NMJ certainly doesn't understand JGY, it's not at all obvious that the reverse is true; he generally seems to understand him pretty well. I think he has two surprises overall: first, that he wasn't expecting NMJ to say he didn't promote MY so MY would owe him, and volunteer to send him to his father with a letter of recommendation—and second, he wasn't expecting NMJ, who for all his flaws did seem to ignore JGY's background in good ways as well as bad, to call him the son of a prostitute.

I definitely don't read the coffin at the end as romantic. Or I mean, uh, there's the romance of an obsessive stalker-murderer finally getting his victim, and that's not nothing (unironically; look, I'm a Hannibal fan), but I don't think it's usually what people mean. This is a shitty end for JGY, part of how thoroughly he loses and is destroyed. I think to some extent it might be that he doesn't want LXC to be the one who killed him, and to some extent it's an act of defiance—now that he has nothing to lose, not even his life, he's going to go out fighting. I would expand on this but this post is ridiculously long and I have way too many quotes, maybe I'll do it in a separate post later on—but if you look at the description of it in the text, plus the subsequent description of it in the coffin...yeah. JGY didn't want to die, he didn't want to be engaged in a mutually destructive thing with NMJ; he wanted to leave NMJ behind in the past, and move on. It's not, for him any kind of fulfillment, is my read.

All quotes are taken from the Exiled Rebels translation: ch 48-50 for everything about NMJ and JGY's past relationship, ch. 47 for the description of JGY's containment measures for NMJ's head, and ch. 106-108 for the quotes about JGY's fear of NMJ's fierce corpse. The description of JGY going into the coffin is at the end of 108 if you want to have a look, and there's more in 109 and 110 about the difficulty of sealing NMJ's fierce corpse/its power and violence.

[watch-grok-brainrot]

Hey, thank you for sharing your knowlege :) So based on your post about language rules surrounding Lan brothers: if Huaisang might be his given name, then Lan Xichen is calling NHS by his given name while calling his own brother Wangji? XD And also calling Meng Yao "A-Yao"? ...What does that mean? I'd always assumed NHS's name would have had to be courtesy name since he still uses it as sect leader, or at least no other name is ever mentioned after the time skip.

Oh god. Sometimes I really wonder why I allow myself to spew random thoughts -- especially my headcanons. But hey! You’re inviting me to share my thoughts so here you go! :)

First of all, there is an equal chance that huaisang is NHS’s courtesy vs given name. We don’t know. We are not given another name for him. I know fandom assumes that it’s his courtesy name so I wanted to throw out the other possibility. We don’t really talk about it much and it’s a fun thought. I know given names in CQL/MDZS tend to be single character and courtesy names tend to be double but historically people can  have double character given names and single character courtesy names so that really isn’t binding. 

Second of all, we have NO IDEA how old characters are when they are given courtesy names. I headcanon golden core formation because that makes sense to me as a coming of age thing for cultivators. We also don’t know how early on the courtesy names are determined -- wwx chooses Jin Ling’s courtesy name before he’s even born. Is that a Jin clan thing? And why is the generation character of the Jin clan tied to their courtesy names? There is a chance that every clan does it differently. 

So, I'm going to answer your ask assuming 1) golden core formation, for most clans, triggers the bequeathing of a courtesy name and 2) that huaisang is his given name. As we know well, NHS detests cultivation because of his family’s history with the sabre spirits etc. He does a half-assed job of it. AND it’s noted in the novel that yes, he forms a golden core, but it’s barely a thing. You can call it a golden core but it’s definitely NOT strong and NOT something to be proud of. He is a weak cultivator -- and this is by his choosing. (of course, i headcanon he later cultivates with fan and brush but that’s an entirely different post and i’m not gonna get into that right now). So based on nhs’s relationship with his golden core, I can see LXC calling NHS huaisang for two reasons. 1)NHS doesn’t care for his courtesy name. It’s not something he embraces or values. He won’t tell people to call him that. (We also see this with Jin Ling. He really doesn’t like his courtesy name so he actually gets mad when people use it. Preference still matters.) 2) LXC has known NHS for a LONG time. Huaisang is an affectionate way for LXC to refer to NHS and this affection is rooted in NHS running around as a kid in CR before he had a golden core. As an older brother figure, he’s allowed to keep using it -- especially if NHS doesn’t really like his courtesy name. And if NHS doesn’t really use his courtesy name, there’s no reason for people to use it either? We just don’t have actual data to make that guess. Also, if you respect him as sect leader, you’re going to call him Sect Leader Nie. If you're his friend, you can call him Nie-xiong. If you don’t like or respect him, you might as well call him NHS, right? His reputation doesn’t really inspire awe. Again, context gives us so little information. :) 

Ok. So the second part of the ask -- “A-Yao”. First of all, what, LXC, nicknames?! Are you really so starved for affection in CR that you start using nicknames? Seriously?! (This is why I ship them as a ship that crashed and burned in the most horrific ways. So much pain and i love it.) The level of fondness is so deep. Asdl;kachjahlj. 

That aside, JGY was Meng Yao -- Yao being his given name. He didn’t start cultivating until later. His mom calls him that. He’s not “educated” in the old classic sense. His standing in the cultivation world is LOW. All of these point to Yao being his given name. I think GuangYao is JGY’s courtesy name. (And before you go, “Can you use the same character in your given and courtesy names?” yes. Yes you can. In fact, Li Bai of drunken poetry swordsman epic shenanigans fame is Last name Li, Given Name Bai, Courtesy Name TaiBai. And both Bais are the same character. Yes. there is historic precedence for this.And it’s Li Bai and it feels like he really didn’t give a f*ck. I think it’s hilarious, btw.) Like Zi of Zixuan and Zixun or Ru of Rulan, the family/generation term is part of the courtesy name. (Note: Because of the comment that Rulan’s Ru is the generation character and part of the courtesy name, I assume Zixuan and Zixun share the Zi as their generation character and so those names are their courtesy names. We don’t have that sort of indicator for the Nies so it can go either way.) LXC calling JGY/MY “A-yao” can be referring to MY/JGY’s courtesy and given name so it’s not necessarily rude. But as LXC doesn’t usually give nicknames, this is just VERY VERY FOND.