#File: Cassandra Cain

[pinkiemachine]

GOTHAM FILES: SEASON 7

SO, to start off, Jason has begun to form the Outlaws in a mini series going on in the background. His new team consists of himself, Roy Harper (Arsenal), Artemis of Bana-Mighdall (Amazon warrior), and Bizarro, (botched Superman clone).

BUT FORGET ALL THAT—SEASON 7.

The opening arc issssssssssss 🥁 🥁 🥁

THE KILLING JOKE.

Joker is back, he’s out of Arkham, and this time… his scheme is particularly diabolical. He’s discovered Batgirl’s secret identity. By the end of this harrowing tale, after many ups and downs, Joker escapes… after having shot Barbara in the back and paralysing her from the waste down. This shatters Barbara’s world. So not only has her identity been leaked (eventually making its way to the public) but now she’s lost the ability to walk and she’s lost the ability to be Batgirl. Basically, everything she ever wanted to do for Gotham, for her friends and family, feels completely out of reach now, and she doesn’t know what to do.

I mean, first of all, she needs to go underground to keep her and her father safe, but after that… she needs to do some serious soul searching. The conclusion of which is this: she may not be able to use her body to its fullest extent anymore, but she still has her sharp mind. She can still help. She can be the BatFam’s “Guy in the chair.” Or in this case, “Gal in the chair.” She takes the new Codename “Oracle” and sets up her headquarters in an old, abandoned clock tower. (She can’t be seen at Wayne Manor, ever. They’d link her (Batgirl) back to Bruce and then the secret would be out.) But now she’s kinda starting to feel like she’s found her groove again. She has a purpose again.

Damian continues his training under Bruce, Dick and Star navigate married life, Jason is gallivanting off with the Outlaws, Tim has actually been chosen by Bruce to kind of become Bruce Wayne’s apprentice in a way—Bruce thinks that one day, maybe he could run Wayne Enterprises—Stephanie and Tim continue to work on their relationship, Batwoman makes another appearance, Batman and Catwoman start to date a little more seriously (much to Damian’s chagrin), things move forward, and then we meet Cassandra Cain.

Specifically, Barbara meets Cass. See, this girl is very similar to Damian in that she was raised to be an assassin. However, her twisted father’s approach was to prohibit her from speaking ever, so that she had to rely solely on body language and facial expressions. This allows her to read people exceptionally well. She can tell if someone’s going to attack her, how they’re going to attack her, and when they’re going to attack her, all before they can even blink. Thing is, she’s not a natural-born killer. After she took her first life at just eight years old, she freaked out and tired to run away. She managed to escape a few years later. Now she had popped up on Oracle’s radar, and she sent in the BatFam to sort out the kerfuffle. When Bruce meets her, he can tell that she’s not like the deranged lunatics of Gotham, she’s just a kid. A kid with no clear direction in life and a dark past. He lets her crash at the Manor until she can get a few things sorted. They also need her help to bring down her father, another known criminal. Barbara, though, recognises something within Cass that she sees in herself. A feeling… that you believe you’re broken… like something’s wrong with you. Cass has been trying to learn to speak since running away, but she’s really bad at it. The only thing she’s good for is knowing how to kill people. Even her friends. She feels like she’s a broken human being. Barbara for a while felt literally broken, due to her legs. Like she wasn’t good for anything. And even now, she sometimes feels like she’s only good for one thing: sitting behind a screen. She takes Cass under her wing and she begins to teach her all the things she learned as Batgirl. Together, they both heal and learn to move past what they both thought they were. In the end, Babs becomes much for comfortable and confident in her new role as Oracle, and Cass redeems herself by becoming the new Batgirl. Steph also adopts her as her best friend/Batsister immediately.

After that, Barbara gets the idea to start the Birds of Prey (an elite squad of girl superheroes which she manages from her chair) and everything’s going pretty well for a while.

We get introduced to Luke Fox, aka Batwing, (I need to research his story more, soorrryyy…… there’s a lot of charactersssss)

Harley Quinn has just begun her redemption arc! Well, I mean, I will have been hinting at this for several seasons, but now it’s official. Now she’s coming back to the sane side.

Damian is finally allowed to go to school at Gotham Academy (though he insists that he always arrive via helicopter. He accepts no substitutions), and while we’re talking about Damian, let’s see how he’s doing with the whole “murder” thing. He’s, uh… not as bad as he was when he first arrived… so that’s good. But at the same time… he, uh… he still has some room for improvement. He’s got a little bit of a temper, he’s still stuck-up, and although he’s able to follow Batman’s no killing rule, he does still plan to go back to his old ways as soon as his time with Bruce is over. His destiny is still to become the new Demon’s Head and rule the New World, remember? BUT THEN…

The grande finale of season 7. His name is Heretic… and he’s a bad dude. So bad, in fact, that he manages to kill Damian. HOWEVER… that is not where the finale ends… it’s only just started… no cliffhangers this time. Bruce, naturally, does not take this death well, but he’s also not going to crumble this time. This time, he knows it’s possible to bring Damian back, and he will go to the ends of the Earth to make that happen. He pursues every single conceivable avenue available to him, and he Does. Not. Rest. until he brings his son back to life! The other Batkids are there too, helping, and together, they manage to save their little brother. (I forget how they do that in the comics just now, I’ll come back and edit this later XD) Anyway, this is the second most crucial moment in Damian’s life. Now, he has experienced what it’s like to die… to be on the other end of a sword… and he’s moved by the fact that not only his father, but his entire adoptive family (who’ve famously hated him), all came together to save him. It completely redefines his definition of love and it opens up an entirely new feeling for him: empathy. From this moment on, he doesn’t even try to take another life. He’s starting to think that maybe he doesn’t want to.

Oh, and also, Starfire’s pregnant! 🎉

Part 8 👇

Part 6 👇

[shyjusticewarrior]

I think it's kinda weird how many people respond to this panel with "he didn't even mention Tim?!" Meanwhile they don't bring up Cass being equally unmentioned.

I think they're both not mentioned by Bruce for the same reasons: they're vigilantes who are based in Gotham and whose actions align well with his moral code.

[sbd-laytall]

Mom, she did it! She did the thing! Mom–

Batman: Gotham City Secret Files And Origins (2000) #1

[vincentvega0721]

Cassandra Cain One Of My Favs Out Of the Bat family No Doubt

[martyrbat]

batman: gotham city secret files and origins

[ID: an edit of Cassandra Cain in their Batgirl costume. They're shown from the chest up and has their head tilted to the right. Their gaze is to the left and their lips are parted as they look slightly bemused. They have straight black hair that's cut like a bob and a few stray hairs are on their forehead. In both photos, Cass is in front of a soft pink background. In the first photo, there's a fitted white glow around them and in the second photo, they're outlined in white with a subtle, darker pink glow behind them. END ID]

[majingojira]

Fanfic Idea that Won't Leave My Brain

Harry Dresden gets a call from Murphy who is up to her neck in problems. Something hit almost every one of Marcone's operations last night. No one was killed, but there was a lot of people put in traction, and a LOT of property damage. Those who are willing to talk babble about a shadow with horns and no face that moved like nothing they'd ever seen, and could throw men around like they were paperweights.

It kept asking them for one person, and not finding them, disappeared into thin air.

Harry stretched his resources to figure out what sort of monster is terrorizing the city, even though "it couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of guys" and comes up with nothing.

So, he goes to work that day and gets a new job. A woman in a fancy business suit worth more than both his car and apartment together asks him to find someone -- the very person who the shadow monster was looking for. Her name is Cassandra Cain. Adopted daughter of Bruce Wayne. And the thing holding me back is I can't think of a Gotham Rogue who would anger Cass enough to jump cities to find, and still be able to get into John Marcone's good graces and get his protection. So, Tumblr, what'ya got?

[allmyoldhaunts]

thinking about the coolest girl in the world (cassandra cain)

[thecruellestmonth]

How tall is Tim Drake in canon?

AFAIK Tim Drake's adult height is somewhere between 5'9" (175.26 cm) and 5'11 (180.34 cm).

Comics canon

Exact heights aren't often stated in the comics; height is usually an irrelevant detail that isn't worth tracking through the fluctuating canon of comics.

One of the uncommon exceptions is Batman: Family #5 (2003), in which 15-year-old Tim is described as "five foot nine, one hundred and forty pounds. He's probably no more than sixteen."

Though the narrator can't find Tim's exact age without knowing his secret identity, reasonably he could find this much information through observation.

In everyone's favorite comic Batman: Battle for the Cowl #2 (2008), Catwoman remarks that 17-year-old Batman Tim is shorter than Batman Jason Todd, but the height difference is apparently small enough that she didn't immediately notice it until she followed Tim.

Note on databooks and supplementary material

Comics canon takes precedent over non-diegetic information. The DC databooks (like Who's Who?, Secret Files, official Encyclopedia, etc) are notorious for containing some unreliable details, including heights and weights. The weights reported for most superheroes are often more realistic for underweight supermodels than for conditioned athletes. Some supplementary material gives Jason Todd's height as 4'6" at 15 years old, which is probably pulled from the height and weight that he was reported to have in his first databook when he was approximately 12 years old, but comic canon The New Titans #55 put him at the much more reasonable and realistic height of 5'4" at 15 years old.

The databooks seem to indicate that Tim at 14-16 years old is taller than Jason Todd and Damian Wayne at around the same age.

The Batman Character Encyclopedia corroborates that Tim is taller and heavier than Damian in their first meetings. Tim is supposedly 17 years old, 5’6”, and 131 lbs. Damian Wayne is 10 years old, 4’6”, and 84 lbs. Though again, if we use comics canon, then Tim would be at least 5'9" and 140 lbs. So if you've really been wondering who is the smaller and baby-er child between the 17-year-old and the 10-year-old... well it's the 10-year-old...

The databooks that list Stephanie Brown at 5'5" also list Tim at 5'5" or 5'6", while Cassandra Cain is 5'4" or 5'5". Tim is consistently taller than his female peers, and his various love interests, excepting Bernard. This is in contrast to Dick Grayson (5'10"), who has been listed as shorter than Starfire (6'4"), Barbara Gordon (5'11"), and Huntress (5'11") at several points.

Comics art

Comics art is pretty inconsistent, and characters' heights can vary between artists, and even between panels on the same page. Tbh this section is just an excuse to show some hugs.

Janet and Tim in Batman Chronicles #4 dream sequence and Batman (2016) #134

Bruce and Tim in Red Robin #17 (2010) // in Detective Comics #981 (2018)

Steph and Tim in Robin (1993) #58 and in Convergence: Batgirl #2 (2015)

Cass and Tim in Detective Comics #967 (2017)

Conclusion

Tim Drake isn't very short or small. He's usually depicted at an average male height. There isn't much indication that he has been or will be shorter than Cass, Steph, Duke, or Damian. But as we know, canon is quite malleable, and maybe you can find evidence to the contrary.

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

The Bat Family Timeline and Ages (Post-Crisis and New Earth) with Sources

Evidence

In Batman: Year One, Bruce is said to be 25 in the January he returns to Gotham. The 1976 DC Calendar puts Bruce's birthday on the 19th of February so Bruce is 26 during his first outing as Batman in April.

Marv Wolfman's Batman: Year Three (Batman vol. 1 #436) tells us that Dick Grayson's parents die in Bruce's third year. In Batman vol. 1 #441 (also by Wolfman) Tim says that Robin started appearing around 6 months after the death of the Flying Graysons. For Dick's age when he becomes Robin, see below.

Bruce joins the Justice League before Dick forms the Teen Titans. Both these teams form before Barbara Gordon becomes Batgirl at 16 (Batgirl: Year One).

Barbara and Dick are each other's dates to their high school prom and so are less than 2 years apart in age (Detective Comics vol. 1 #871).

I suspect Dick, who was an emancipated minor, graduated high school and started college a year early, which allows Dick and Barbara to have some time as the new Dynamic Duo, as we see in Batman Family.

Dick Grayson is 18 when he forms the New Teen Titans, all of whom are also teenagers (Nightwing vol. 2 #137 by Wolfman, who also created the New Teen Titans).

Dick Grayson is 19 when he becomes Nightwing (Batman vol. 1 # 416).

21 year-old Helena becomes Huntress (Huntress: Year One #1), and interacts with Batgirl, meaning that Barbara is not yet Oracle.

Jason dies at 15, 4 months before his 16th birthday (Batman Files). This is before the New Teen Titans' third year anniversary (New Titans #71), before any of the Titans turn 22 (Deathstroke vol. 1 Annual 1), 2 years after Dick becomes Nightwing and almost 10 years before Dick's parents are killed (Batman vol. 1 #436). Dick is hence 21 during these events and 11 when he became Robin.

I also kinda like Dick being 17 years younger than Bruce because that's also the age difference between Adam West and Burt Ward from the 60s TV series.

After these events, Tim Drake becomes Robin and is 13-14 (Batman vol. 1 #441 and Robin II #1)

Soon after, Stephanie Brown is 15 when she becomes Spoiler (Secret Origins 80-Page Giant).

Stephanie is still 15 when she realises that she is pregnant (Robin vol. 2 #59) and Tim is almost 15 during this time (Secret Origins 80-Page Giant).

Cassandra Cain is 17 when she comes to Gotham during this time (Batgirl vol. 1 #1), during No Man's Land which lasts one year.

Helena’s family were killed when she was 8 and during Batman/Huntress: Cry For Blood, Tim says the murders happened roughly 15 years ago, making her roughly 23 during this storyline.

Cass turns 18 in January (Batgirl vol. 1 #39), Tim Drake turns 16 (Robin vol. 2 #116), Jason would have turned 18 in August (Detective Comics vol. 1 #790), and Stephanie is 16 when she "dies" (Batman Allies Secret Files & Origin).

Personally I'd re-arrange Tim's 16th birthday to be the last of these events four events to accommodate him still being 17 late into the Batman: Reborn, see below.

Jason soon returns to Gotham as Red Hood, not long before Infinite Crisis, 52 and One Year Later.

Following the one year time skip, Dick says it's been almost 10 years since his misadventures with Metal Eddie and Liu as a 16-17 year old (Nightwing vol. 2 #133 by Wolfman), which makes sense because he would be 25 by my math.

Stephanie returns from her time as a medical volunteer in East Africa, finishes high school and begins university during Batman: Reborn. She'd turn 19 by the end of this year by my math, which is a typical age to be begin attending university (Gotham Underground and Batgirl vol. 3 #1).

Dick calls Damian Wayne a "10 year-old" before Stephanie attends university (Batman and Robin vol. 1 #2) and Steph still calls Damian a "10 year-old" while she's in her second semester (Batgirl vol. 3 #13 and Batgirl vol. 3 #17). He might have turned 11 before the reboot.

Batwoman: Elegy (Detective Comics #858), during the Batman: Reborn year, shows that Kate was 12 when she was kidnapped and saw her mother and sister killed. This incident is also said to happen "20 years ago”, making her 32 and hence 30-31 during her first appearance in 52/One Year Later.

Tim Drake is still 17 while Steph is in her second semester of her first year at university, and it's stated that he is meant to be in his senior year at high school (Batgirl vol. 3 #13, Red Robin #17 and Red Robin #25). It's possible he turns 18 before the reboot.

Mistakes I Made

Cassandra Cain is 21 in Year Eighteen.

The "Titans disbands" in Year Thirteen was definitely a year early but it's done.

[heroesriseandfall]

Canonical Batfamily Birthdays

Here are all the birthdates I know of that are canon somewhere in DC, with a preference for the main comics continuities. I have included exact sources and image references when possible. I am not including character introduction dates, just actual birthdays.

If you find any other sources for Batfamily birthdays, please do share!

A moment of silence for Batfamily characters who don’t have canonical birthdays yet, so far as I know. This includes Damian Wayne, Stephanie Brown, Duke Thomas, and more. :(

Summary

Source images will be further down, but here’s an overview in roughly age order (I’m not sure of Kate vs Selina’s ages) with the dates the birthdays were introduced and used:

Tim Drake: July 19th (from 2003)

Jason Todd: August 16th (from 2004)

Cassandra Cain: January 26th (from 2002)

Helena Bertinelli: February 14th (in the Batman: The Brave and the Bold universe, from 2010)

Helena Wayne: September 7th (from 1984), potentially October 20th or the 22nd of unknown month or maybe October 22 or maybe Feb 28th (all the New 52 on passports from 2011-2012). These could also be New 52 Helena Bertinelli’s birthdays or nobody’s birthdays. who even knows.

Dick Grayson: March 20th (from 1995), October ~24th ish (from 1990), November 11th (from 1976), December 1st (on Earth-16 in animated Young Justice universe, from 2012)

Barbara Gordon: September 23rd (from 1976), sometime in fall (from 1987)

Selina Kyle: March 14th (from 1976)

Kate Kane: January 26th (in Batwoman TV series from 2020), March 21st? (word-of-god by J.H. Williams III from 2012)

Bruce Wayne: October 7th (from 2021), February 19th (from 1970s various to more recently), April ~7th (from the late 1940s)

Jim Gordon: January 5th (from 1976)

Alfred Pennyworth: April 8th (from 1976), August 16th (in the Injustice: Gods Among Us universe, from 2016)

Note: in this post when I say “main comics continuity(s)/universe” I’m referring to anything that’s been a “home” continuity for the comics at some point. For example, pre-Crisis Earth-2, Earth-1/New Earth, and Earth-0/Prime Earth, as opposed to Elseworlds or DCEU earths that are still part of the broader DC multiverse but have never been the primary continuity of the comics.

Below are further details and source panels.

Details and Sources

Tim Drake

Tim has only been given one canon birthday. He turned 16 on July 19th in Robin Vol. 2 #116 (cover date Sep 2003).

Robin Vol. 2 #116 (Sep 2003)

Jason Todd

Jason turned 18 on August 16th in Detective Comics #790 (March 2004). This is his only canon birthday.

Detective Comics #790 (Mar 2004)

In post-Crisis/preboot (1986-2011) continuity, there was a gap of six months between when Jason died and when he was resurrected (Batman Annual 25). Jason died April 27th according to his death certificates in Batman Annual 25 and Batman Files 2011, so he would’ve resurrected near late October.

Batman Annual 25 (May 2006)

So, it could be that post-resurrection Jason is biologically 6 months younger than he chronologically should be. But honestly, do we even really know what multiverse-breaking resurrection punches and then a Lazarus Pit on top of that do to someone’s body??? Either way it’s just much more simple to just use his chronological age.

Cassandra Cain

Much like Tim and Jason, Cass has only ever been given one birthdate: January 26th from Batgirl Vol. 1 #33. With that birthday, she turned 18 in Batgirl Vol. 1 #37.

Batgirl Vol. 1 #33 (Dec 2002)

When Jan 26th actually comes, Bruce suggests David Cain could’ve lied about it, but Cass denies that idea and continues to treat the day as her birthday.

Batgirl Vol. 1 #37 (Apr 2003)

Why it's likely her real birthday: Bruce initially believes Cain must’ve lied because he doesn’t think Cain could’ve known her birthday. However, we later learn Cain had lied about her origins and was actually her biological father. Batgirl v1 #62 and #73 show he was there for her birth and could absolutely know the date.

On top of that, in Batgirl #37 Cass remembers celebrating her birthday with him as a child, so he did seem to actually keep track of it. I honestly don’t see any reason to believe he’d lie (Bruce is just a jealous spoilsport).

Helena Bertinelli + Wayne

I’m combining them here because the New 52 gives me a headache.

Helena Bertinelli celebrated her birthday on February 14th in a spin-off comic from the animated Batman: The Brave and the Bold series. This is obviously not part of regular comics continuity and the characters differ from the usual comics in many ways. And yet, for reasons that will soon be clear, it’s my favorite for actually being about Helena Bertinelli the Huntress and for not being an utter mess.

Batman: The Brave and the Bold #14 (Apr 2010)

In a character profile at the end of Infinity Inc. #7 (Oct 1984), Helena Wayne’s birthday was September 7th, 1959. Calculating back from October 1984, that would make her 25 at the time.

During the New 52, Helena Bertinelli was initially portrayed as a long-dead (secretly alive but don’t worry about it) mobster’s daughter and replaced by Earth-2’s Helena Wayne who got stranded on Prime Earth. This H. Wayne stole H. Bertinelli’s identity in the form of several forged passports and IDs, which had hints toward birthdates. The question is, can we take any of those birthdates seriously, and if so, which birthdates and for which character? (Cue my headache.)

Skip ahead to Dick if overthinking fake passports sounds boring.

When comparing to a real Italian passport, the date on H. Wayne’s fake Italian passport appears to be a birthdate. Note that the fake name is Carol Bertinelli, not Helena. H. Wayne said her IDs were inspired by H. Bertinelli but clearly she’s taking liberties for the IDs so that’s a point toward these being useless for H. Bertinelli birthdays.

Huntress Vol. 3 #1 (Dec 2011)

I don’t recognize the month abbreviation as a real abbreviation, but from the visible letter O I’m going to assume it means October. If it is, then the date is 20 October 1985. Sidenote: a 1985 birthdate during 2011 could put her age at about 26, which is actually quite close to how old she could’ve been based on pre-Flashpoint! 1985 has been given as Helena Wayne’s death year before, so it’s an interesting choice of a birth year for her. (Thanks to DC’s sliding timescale, though, birth years don’t actually mean anything in the comics.)

They don’t show her complete US passport, but I can see a “22” in line where the day of the month should be for her birthdate. This already contradicts the previous passport. This one uses Helena Bertinelli’s actual name, though–does that make it more relevant than the Carol one or this all still ridiculous because of the discrepancies?

Worlds’ Finest Vol. 1 #1 (Jul 2012)

We can try to glean the US passport birth month from the passport number at the bottom. The first two digits (“12” here) indicate the agency that issued the passport. 12 means the Honolulu agency. Right after “USA” is supposed to be the birthdate plus an extra number, in the order of year/month/day with the year being the last two digits of a year. Here we encounter another problem. It says 810228. This would imply her birthdate is 1981/02/28. That’s February 28, 1981. Since the earlier line indicated her birthday fell on a 22nd, this already contradicts itself.

Interpreting a Machine Readable Zone (MZR) on a Machine Readable Travel Document (MRTD)

However, I’d bet comic writers and artists aren’t always well versed in passport numbers (it’s already a stretch for me to bother checking it…). If they put the extra digit before the birthdate instead after, and the date is formatted month/day/year (the most common format in American English, so probably their first instinct), then we can drop the first 8 and it’s 10/22/8[?] with the last digit unknown. This would put her birthday as October 22, sometime in the 1980s. The 22 matches the earlier line, the October might match the previous passport if that really did say October (but contradicts the 20th), and the 1980s year could be 1985 to match the Italian passport.

At the end of the day I’m personally just going to let Helena Bertinelli be a Valentine’s born baby and call it a day, unless/until she gets a better one in the comics. For Helena Wayne I’d easily pick September 7th.

(My question is: did they give the crossbow vigilante a Valentine’s birthday as a Cupid joke??)

Dick Grayson

Dick has probably had the most birthdays of everyone (unless Bruce has more I don’t know about). All of them have their drawbacks.

In a main comics continuity, his most popular and most recent is “the first day of spring” so probably March 20th. This comes from Robin Annual 4 when his mom says she calls him Robin because he was born on the first day of spring. That presents some problems since there are other explanations given for the origin of “Robin,” including that his mom said he was “always bobbin’ along” (Dark Victory #12, page 17) or the original inspiration of Robin Hood (Detective Comics #38, p3).

Robin Annual 4 (Jun 1995)

Before that, in Secret Origins Vol. 2 #50 (Aug 1990), Marv Wolfman wrote a version of Dick’s origins where Dick turned 10 a week before his parents died on Halloween. That would make his birthday October ~24th (presuming that “a week” before Halloween literally means 7 days here).

Secret Origins Vol. 2 #50 (Aug 1990)

The first drawback of the October birthday is that it’s tied to Dick being 10 when his parents die on Halloween. Dick’s age and the date his parents die change a lot depending on the writer (Nightwing Vol. 1 #1 says his parents died June 27th, Dark Victory #8-9 says May, etc.). The second drawback is that few people remember this version of his birthday even exists.

Dick’s birthday is November 11th in Super DC Calendar 1976. Note: Despite being a non-diegetic calendar from almost 50 years ago, this source remains well known and used among comic enthusiasts (including those working at DC). Generally, I would say it should mainly apply just to pre-Crisis continuity, but it is also useful for characters that haven’t gotten updated birthdays ever since (like Roy Harper, Barbara Gordon, or Selina Kyle, for example).

Super DC Calendar 1976

Sidenote: Since Damian doesn’t have a canon birthday, November 11th is favorite to steal for my own fan canon Damian birthday. Dick has plenty birthdays to share and I think it’s cute. @ DC, give Damian and Steph birthdays, they’ve been birthday-less for decades!

Indeed, DC writer Tim Sheridan and editor Mike Cotton debated whether Dick’s birthday was in March or November. They favored March 20th and wrote a birthday scene in Teen Titans Academy #1 (published March 23rd, 2021). The publishing time near Dick’s birthday was intentional, though the date isn’t mentioned within the comic itself.

Link to tweet

The above birthdays were all meant to apply to a main comics continuity at some point. However, Earth-16, better known as the animated Young Justice universe (therefore outside of main comics continuity), says YJ Dick’s birthday is December 1st.

Young Justice Vol. 2 #20 (Nov 2012)

Unlike Helena Bertinelli, Dick has plenty of comics birthdays to choose from, so personally I’ll only count Dec 1st as being the birthday for YJ animated/Earth-16 Dick Grayson until or unless it’s ever mentioned to apply to main comics continuity.

Barbara Gordon

Super DC Calendar 1976 says Barbara’s birthday is September 23rd.

Super DC Calendar 1976

Since then, the only time I recall her birthdate hinted at is in Secret Origins #20 when her adoptive mom says her birthday is in the fall. This could support her birthday being September 23rd.

Secret Origins Vol. 2 #20 (Nov 1987)

Although she has celebrated her birthday on panel since then (the end of Nightwing Vol. 2 #153), she hasn’t been given any other actual birthdate. So I’ll keep September 23rd and call it a day.

Selina Kyle

Super DC Calendar 1976 says Selina’s birthday is March 14th. Once again, although it hasn’t been mentioned within a comic, it’s stuck around in popular consciousness (see: Catwoman actress Zoë Kravitz wishing Selina a happy birthday on March 14th).

Super DC Calendar 1976

Selina celebrated a birthday on panel in Catwoman (2002) #37 but the date was never mentioned. I don’t know of any other reference to her birthday, but my reading of Selina is thus far more sparse than my reading of the others.

Kate Kane

Kate’s birthday options all come from outside of the comics themselves.

In “An Un-Birthday Present,” season 1 episode 11 of Batwoman, a parallel version of her twin Beth had a driver’s license showing her date of birth as January 26, 1990. She and Kate later celebrated their birthdays on an episode aired Jan 26th, 2020. I don’t keep up with live action DC shows so I unfortunately can’t offer a screenshot (if anyone has one or the timestamp, please let me know!).

(I kinda wonder if somebody looked up Batwoman’s birthday for these episodes, saw Batgirl’s (Cass’s) birthday, and just ran with it. Batwoman and a Batgirl sharing a birthday is just. Ughhh.)

In 2012, one of her comic writers tweeted to choose a random date for her birthday and picked March 21st, which so far as I know has never been used as her birthday in comics.

Link to tweet

Bruce Wayne

Bruce’s most popular birthday is February 19th, but his most recent one is October 7th from the digital-only comic Legends of the Dark Knight. I believe that’s the only time October 7th has been referenced, but I’ve heard the animated show The Batman said his birthday was in October (can’t confirm, haven’t watched it recently).

Legends of the Dark Knight #10 (Jun 2021) - Note: two pages have been combined into one for this post

Still, even associates of DC seem to remember his February 19th birthday better. In February 2023, Warner Bro’s Gotham Knights game did a sale for Bruce’s birthday. I’ve also heard the birthday was used in the Gotham TV show, but again, I don’t watch much live action DC shows.

The February 19th birthday appears to come from the 70s and 80s. It’s his birthday in the Super DC Calendar 1976, and in Batman Family Vol. 1 #11: “Suprise, Suprise!” (May 1977). Bob Rozakis (known as DC’s “Answer Man”) said Feb 19th was Bruce’s birthday in the letter column of Detective Comics #494 (Sep 1980).

Letter column of Detective Comics #494 (Sep 1980)

Batman Family Vol. 1 #11: “Suprise, Suprise!” (Jun 1977)

Super DC Calendar 1976

Way back in the 40s, his birthday was in April, possibly April 7th. During a birthstone murder mystery, Bruce says his birthstone is a diamond, which is traditionally the April birthstone.

World’s Finest Comics #33/6 (Mar-Apr 1948): “The 5 Jewels of Doom!”

Star Spangled Comics #91 (Apr 1949) might imply the exact date was April 7th but we’d have to assume the party is on his birthday and that “this month” refers to the publishing month of April. I believe this is where people get the April 7th birthday when they bring it up.

Star Spangled Comics #91 (Apr 1949)

Early April also shines in Batman: Year One where it shows Bruce’s first night out as Batman being either the night of April 6th or the early morning of April 7th (Batman #405). So although the April Bruce birthday hasn’t been used in decades, it’s still a Batman birthday in a way.

I have also heard people say Frank Miller considered Bruce’s birthday to be in November. However, I have yet to find an original source of him saying that, and honestly (just like the “March 21st” birthday for Kate) if he never used it in any canon material I don’t put much weight in that.

Jim Gordon

The only birthday I’ve ever seen for Jim is January 5th from Super DC Calendar 1976.

Super DC Calendar 1976

Alfred Pennyworth

Alfred’s birthday in Super DC Calendar 1976 is April 8th.

Super DC Calendar 1976

In the Injustice: Gods Among Us universe (an alternate reality where the video game of the same name is set in), they show Alfred’s birth certificate, where it says his birthday is August 16th, 1943.

Injustice: Gods Among Us Year Five #26 (Jun 2016)

Maybe you’ll notice that August 16th is Jason’s birthday. A little funny considering the issue features Alfred refusing to share his birthday only for us to learn it’s the same date as Jason’s. Still, annoying. There are so many days in the year! Stop choosing the same ones!

This Alfred birthdate runs into a similar problem Helena’s birthdates did: it’s not part of main comics canon, it’s an alternate universe, so it may not be applicable to the main comics universe.

Note: if we calculate that 1943 birth year from Jun 2016 when the comic was published, that’d make Alfred 72 soon to be 73. Does that mean anything in canon? Probably not, but oh well. Also...token British character born by Windsor Castle? …of course.

Personally, I would rather go with the April 8th birthday than the Injustice one, since Injustice is an alternate universe. Also, outside of the humor of it, the idea of Alfred and Jason sharing a birthday is a bit too much for me. Still, it’s up to people’s own cherry picking.

Chronology

The birthdays in publishing order alongside notable reboots. A soft-reboot refers to reboots that only changed a few details with minor consequences, keeping the overall continuity mostly intact. A major reboot has significant effects on continuity (too many to list).

1935-1986: Pre-Crisis era (Golden Age begins ~1946, Silver Age runs from late 50s--early 70s)

Mar-Apr 1948: Bruce’s birthday is in April

Apr 1949: Bruce has a birthday party on the 7th of “this month”

Skipping a good three decades because I barely even know what’s in there. Sorry lol

Mid 70s to early 90s: Bronze Age era

1976: the super dc calendar says Bruce’s birthday is February 19th, Alfred’s is April 8th, Dick’s is November 11th, Babs is September 23rd, Selina’s is March 14th, Jim’s is Jan 5th

Jun 1977: Bruce celebrates his birthday on February 19th

Sep 1980: letter collumnist says Bruce’s birthday is February 19th

Oct 1984: Helena Wayne’s birthday is on September 7th, 1959

Mar 1986: the major Crisis on Infinite Earths reboot (begins post-Crisis/New Earth era, many previous comics are now considered Earth-2 instead)

Nov 1987: Babs birthday is in fall

Aug 1990: Dick turns 10 a week before Halloween (probably October ~24th)

Sep 1994: Zero Hour soft reboot (Batman and Robin become urban legends so Robin is not allowed on video, Bruce’s parents’ murderer is changed to unknown instead of Joe Chill, Selina is no longer a once-prostitute)

Apr 1995: Dick’s birthday is the first day of spring (probably March 20th)

Oct 2002: Cass learns her birthday is January 26th

April 2003: Cass turns 18 on January 26th

Sep 2003: Tim turns 16 on July 19th

Mar 2004: Jason turns 18 on August 16th

Jun 2006: Infinite Crisis soft reboot (Joe Chill is restored as the arrested Wayne family murderer, Superboy-Prime's punch retroactively resurrects Jason)

Apr 2010: In the Batman: Brave and the Bold universe, Helena Bertinelli celebrates her birthday February 14th

Oct 2011: the major Flashpoint reboot (end of post-Crisis/preboot, begins the New 52 and changes the primary universe to Prime Earth; significant character/timeline changes and erasures)

Dec 2011: Helena Wayne’s fake Carol Bertinelli passport seems to list October 20th as a birthdate

Jul 2012: Helena Wayne’s fake Helena Bertinelli passport lists some 22nd unknown month, Oct 22nd, or Feb 28th birthday

Sep 2012: Batwoman writer J.H. Williams III randomly picks Kate’s birthday as March 21st on Twitter

Nov 2012: Earth-16/YJ animated Dick Grayson celebrates his birthday on December 1st

Jun 2016: In the Injustice: Gods Among Us universe, Alfred’s birth certificate says his birthday is August 16th

Jul 2016: Rebirth reboot (restores some pre-Flashpoint continuity, some characters regain previous histories but now semi-synchronized with the New 52 era)

Jan 2020: Batwoman TV show Kate celebrates her birthday on January 26th

Mar 2021: Writer Tim Sheridan says he & his editor chose March 20th as Dick’s birthday, between the March or November birthdays

May 2021: Infinite Frontier holds all previous continuities as potential canon, restoring more of pre-Flashpoint

Jun 2021: Bruce says his birthday is October 7th in a digital-only comic

Feb 2023: Gotham Knights game has a sale for Bruce’s birthday

[cazzam]

THE NEW AND IMPROVED CASSANDRA CAIN READING GUIDE

Cassandra Cain is the daughter of assassins David Cain and Sandra Wu-San (better known as Lady Shiva), and was raised by Cain. She is an expert hand-to-hand combatant, and able to read body language to the point of interpreting complex thoughts, but learning to communicate better through speech and text. She has operated as a vigilante under the names of Batgirl, Kasumi, Black Bat, and Orphan, and is currently sharing the title of Batgirl with Stephanie Brown and Barbara Gordon.

Basic Reading

Batgirl (2000)

Batman: Gates of Gotham (2011)

Detective Comics (2016) #934-987

Batman and the Outsiders (2019)

Batgirls (2021)

Spirit World (2023)

Birds of Prey (2023)

Cassandra's major appearances are listed in chronological order (mostly) under the cut. My favorites are bolded.

No Man's Land

All issues collected in Batman: No Man's Land (2011) vol. 2-4. I recommend reading the entire event.

Batman (1940) #567 [first appearance]

Detective Comics (1937) #734

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #120 [Cassandra takes up Batgirl mantle]

Azrael: Agent of the Bat #56-57

Batman (1940) #569

The Batman Chronicles #18

Azrael: Agent of the Bat #60-61

Robin (1993) #73

As Batgirl

Issues that are part of events may be confusing out of context.

Batman: Gotham Knights #2, 5

Batman: Gotham City Secret Files and Origins [first story]

Batgirl (2000) #1-2

Young Justice (1998) #21

Batgirl (2000) #3-11, 12 [Officer Down start]

Birds of Prey (1999) #27

Catwoman (1993) #90 [Officer Down end]

Batgirl (2000) Annual #1, #13-19

Harley Quinn (2000) #10

Robin (1993) #88 [first meeting with Stephanie Brown]

Batgirl (2000) #20, 21 [Joker: Last Laugh start]

Joker: Last Laugh #3

Supergirl (1996) #63 [transphobia cw, Joker: Last Laugh end]

DC First: Batgirl/Joker

Batgirl (2000) #22-23, 24 [Bruce Wayne: Murderer? / Fugitive start]

Robin (1993) #98

Batgirl (2000) #25-29

Batman (1940) #605 [Bruce Wayne: Murderer? / Fugitive end]

Batgirl: Secret Files and Origins

Batgirl (2000) #30-32

Batman: Gotham Knights #33, 35

Batgirl (2000) #33-38

Batman: Family #7

Detective Comics (1937) #782 [backup], 790

Nightwing (1996) #81

Superboy (1994) #85 [first meeting with Kon-El/Conner Kent]

Batgirl (2000) #39-44

Batman: Gotham Knights #42, 45-46, 48-49

Robin (1993) #119

Batgirl (2000) #45-47

Superman/Batman #5

Batgirl (2000) #48-50

Birds of Prey (1999) #61, 63

Batgirl (2000) #51-53

Solo #10 [third story]

Detective Comics (1937) #796 [backup]

Robin (1993) #127-128

Batgirl (2000) #54

War Games

All issues collected in Batman: War Games (2015). I don't recommend reading the entire event.

Detective Comics (1937) #797

Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #182

Nightwing (1996) #96

Batgirl (2000) #55

Batman (1940) #631

Batgirl (2000) #56

Nightwing (1996) #98

Batgirl (2000) #57

Batgirl in Bludhaven

Robin (1993) #132 [Fresh Blood start]

Batgirl (2000) #58

Robin (1993) #133

Batgirl (2000) #59 [Fresh Blood end]

Batman Allies: Secret Files and Origins 2005 [third story]

Batgirl (2000) #60-73

With the League of Assassins and Deathstroke

I don't recommend reading anything in this section except Batgirl (2008) #6.

Robin (1993) #148-151, 161-162

Supergirl (2005) #14

World War III #2

Teen Titans (2003) #43-46

Batman and the Outsiders (2007)

Batgirl (2008) [recap of this era. Bruce adopts Cassandra]

As Black Bat

Battle for the Cowl: The Network

Batgirl (2009) #1 [Cassandra gives Batgirl mantle to Stephanie]

Red Robin #17

Batman Incorporated (2011) #6

Red Robin #25

Batman: Gates of Gotham

As Orphan

The New 52 reboot changed Cassandra’s origins, personality, and relationships with other characters. Rebirth was a soft reboot that kept New 52 canon but brought back elements from the previous continuity.

Batman and Robin Eternal #1-9, 11-14, 17-26 [New 52]

Detective Comics (2016) #934-940 [Rebirth]

Batman (2016) #7 [Night of the Monster Men start]

Nightwing (2016) #5

Detective Comics (2016) #941

Batman (2016) #8

Nightwing (2016) #6

Detective Comics (2016) #942 [Night of the Monster Men end], 943-962

Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #15

Detective Comics (2016) #963-964

Batgirl and the Birds of Prey #15-17

Detective Comics (2016) #965-981, 983-987

Batman and the Outsiders (2019)

DC: The Doomed and the Damned [seventh story]

Batman: The Joker War Zone [second story]

Batman (2016) #104

Return of Batgirl

The Infinite Frontier reboot considers all past continuities canon.

Infinite Frontier #0

Batman Secret Files: The Signal

Batman: Urban Legends #3, 5, 7, 8, 10, 14

The Joker (2021) #3-4, 7, 11-12, 15

Detective Comics (2016) #1038 [backup], 1049, 1052, 1057

Batman (2016) #112 [main], 115-116 [backups]

Nightwing (2016) #85-86

Batman (2016) #117 [backup]

Batgirls #1-6

Task Force Z #8

DC Pride: Tim Drake Special

Robin (2021) #15

Detective Comics (2016) #1061

Batgirls #7

Catwoman (2018) #45

Batgirls #8-12

Batman One Bad Day: Two-Face

Tim Drake: Robin #4

Batgirls Annual 2022, #13-19

Lazarus Planet: Dark Fate [fourth story]

Spirit World (2023)

Birds of Prey (2023) #1- [ongoing]

Detective Comics (2016) #1084 [backup]

Other Appearances

Ghost/Batgirl [Dark Horse Comics crossover]

Batman: Outlaws #2

Batman: City of Light [not recommended]

Justice League Elite [as Kasumi]

Wonder Woman (2006) #600 [second story]

Batgirl (2016) #50 [third story]

DC Festival of Heroes [first story]

Truth & Justice #6 [#16-18 digital first]

Alternate Universes

Tiny Titans #33, 39, 43, 45

Batgirl: Futures End

Convergence: Batgirl

Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey (2020)

DCeased: Unkillables / Dead Planet #5 / War of the Undead Gods

Shadow of the Batgirl [YA graphic novel]

Dark Knights: Death Metal Robin King [backup]

Future State: The Next Batman #2, 4 [second stories]

Batman: Wayne Family Adventures [webtoon]

DC vs. Vampires

Dark Knights of Steel #9

Thanks for reading! If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Last updated: April 23, 2024

[ectonurites]

Are Tim and Cass Cain actually close in canon? Or is that more of a fanon thing that gained canon status?

Alright, so the tldr answer is that yes pre-reboot they were close—but it wasn't something that happened immediately/right off the bat, it took time, and they didn't always perfectly see eye-to-eye. But like, it's not just some totally fanon thing, they were absolutely close.

I'm using past-tense in the above though because it's like... all the actual content with them becoming/being close is pre-reboot. Anything post-reboot with them either had them back at square one (during N52 stuff) or like, just sort of handwavey 'oh they're close again' without much actual elaboration/explanation. Theoretically nowadays everything's canon again so all the old stuff applies, but as far as I'm aware nothing has really dug all that deep back into the two of them/their dynamic.

Now, to give a brief crash course on Tim & Cass's relationship in canon...

Early on they weren’t all that close because Tim was absolutely intimidated by her & her background and like, in general seemed to just find her kinda off-putting:

(Robin (1993) #73)

However Tim eventually gets over himself & after working side-by-side with her a little bit realizes he shouldn't let being intimidated by her stop them from being friends and working together:

(Batgirl (2000) #18)

After this point they work together on several occasions, definitely communicating much better than in their initial appearances together and clearly getting along well. They're a fun lil duo:

(Superman/Batman Vol. 1 #5, Superboy Vol. 4 #85)

Then… after a while, War Games happens. Gotham goes to shit, Steph dies (well, we nowadays know she didn't really, but they sure were both grieving) and so they both independently move to Blüdhaven, which leads us to the Robin/Batgirl: Fresh Blood crossover. Which has some fun little moments with them:

(Batgirl (2000) #58)

As well as some on the more tense side, as they both navigate mourning Steph and the clashes in their ideologies/approaches to hero work—the fact that Cass wants to be & be like Batman, and the fact that Tim absolutely does not:

(Batgirl (2000) #59)

After the crossover they mostly do their own thing staying out of each other's ways in Blüdhaven—though they do get another little story together in this timeframe in Batman Allies: Secret Files & Origins that sort of rehashes the above conflict during some training together & a team-up.

And we DO also get the cute (and oft-mentioned by the fandom) moment where Tim mentions she frequently breaks into his house to shower & steal rice krispies (just for clarity sake, while fandom almost exclusively calls her 'Cass' largely to avoid confusion with Cassandra 'Cassie' Sandsmark, within the comics themselves both Cassandras get called 'Cass' and 'Cassie' at various points—considering Cass is the one who lives in the same city as Tim at this point in canon, that's definitely who he's talking about here)

(Robin (1993) #138)

So like, at this point they are absolutely comfortable with one another and pretty close, but just, they don't see eye-to-eye on everything so it's not some flawless friendship (and I say friendship specifically because at this point we're still a few years out from them actually becoming siblings). But it's absolutely an interesting dynamic!

Then… after Infinite Crisis we get to the One Year Later/OYL era which is... bad for Cass. Terrible horrible character assassination we all refer to as the 'Evil Cass arc' which began in Tim's book. I don't wanna pull panels from it because it's just... it's bad!!!!!!!!!!!! There's a reason it got retconned into Cass having been brainwashed—because it was bad.

I guess the only thing worth bringing up here in relation to Tim & Cass's relationship though (because as mentioned, Cass gets retconned into it having been brainwashing so anything from her in this era is irrelevant/moot) is the fact that Tim was obviously very upset about the whole situation because Cass is someone he cares about and he even says he considers family.

To fast forward through that mess, when we get to the end of it and the 'oh it was brainwashing haha!' retcon, Tim was the one to have on hand a counter-serum that could free her from Deathstroke's control:

(Teen Titans Vol. 3 #44)

Once Cass is no longer forced to be evil and ooc, she gets a little mini at the end of which Bruce formally offers to adopt her (and Tim, who had earlier been adopted by Bruce, is present for this—so from this point on they go from a more general 'we're like family' to actually 'we are adopted siblings').

Buuuut then Final Crisis & Battle for the Cowl both occur and Cass gets extremely pushed aside by DC, giving up the Batgirl mantle to Steph and heading off to Hong Kong.

At which point we find out that Tim & Cass have actually kept in contact (just... off-panel) during this time when she's been out of Gotham and he's been off doing all sorts of stuff:

(Red Robin #17)

When they see each other in person again, Tim urges her to be a Bat again. Maybe not Batgirl if that's not what she wants, but to wear the symbol and be part of the family. (Which she does take him up on, keeping the suit he brought her and becoming Black Bat).

She pops up again at the end of Red Robin to save Tim & also help him pull off a fake assassination attempt on himself—ya know standard stuff.

And then right before the reboot we get to see them working alongside Damian and Dick in Gates of Gotham, and see one final time that yeah—these two have kept in touch after everything, and are definitely far more on one another's wavelength nowadays than they were back in the 'fresh out of War Games' era:

(Batman: Gates of Gotham #2, #5)

So like, does fanon over exaggerate them and their relationship? Aaaaabsolutely—that’s what fanon does. But they did definitely become close after everything they went through and had a fun dynamic together!

Sadly though, as I mentioned at the start of the post, the n52 wiped everything back to a clean slate. And while nowadays post-Infinite Frontier everyone’s histories have been restored their dynamic has never really been the same again.

[yan-batgirl]

Batgirl Reader (Updated Info)

Happy New Years everyone!!

I thought that maybe since it was the new years, I decided to give Batgirl Reader a new look and a bit of new lore... 👀

Please do NOT steal my art!!

Real Name: Y/N L/N

Main Alias: Batgirl

Other Aliases:

Witch's Child

검은 눈의 괴물 (Black Eyed Monster)

Umibōzu's daughter

Batsie Baby

Relatives:

Deceased Father

Deceased Mother

Deceased Unborn Brother

Lady Shiva (Caretaker)

Miss Wells (Second Caretaker)

Bruce Wayne (Adoptive Father)

Selina Kyle (Self Proclaimed Mommy)

Kate Kane (Adopted Aunt)

Dick Grayson (Adoptive Older Brother)

Jason Todd (Adoptive Older Brother)

Tim Drake (Adoptive Older Brother)

Damian Wayne (Adoptive Older Brother)

Duke Thomas (Adoptive Older Brother)

Cassandra Cain (Adoptive Older Sister)

“Close Allies”:

Batsie (Best Friend)

Matcha (Childhood Friend)

Deathstroke (Trainer)

Talia Al Gaul

Ace the Bat Hound (Pet)

Azrael (Trainer)

Alfred Pennyworth

Barbara Gordon

Jim Gordon

Stephanie Brown

Helena Bertinelli

Luke Fox

Lucius Fox

Harper Row

Harley Quinn (Sometimes)

Affiliation:

Batman Family

Batgirls

Outsiders

Gotham Knights

League of Assassins (Formerly)

Suicide Squad (Frequently)

Base Of Operations: Gotham City

Alignment: Good

Identity: Secret Identity

Citizenship: Any Asian nationality (Yes, batgirl is going to be Asian cause I'm Asian)

Marital Status: Single

Occupation(s):

Vigilante

Elementary Student

Gender: Female

Height: Around 124 cm (4 ft)

Weight: Same weight as an average child

Eyes: Black

Hair: Black

Abilities:

Dancing: Y/N learned how to dance from her childhood friend, Matcha. She would watch her movements of classical ballet and follow them.

Hacking: Just like Oracle, Batgirl has great skills with computers. She learned how to hack things when she was gifted her first computer for her third birthday. She could go through any high officials' data files.

Marital Arts: Y/N does have great marital arts despite her being so young, but she's still learning.

Mithridatism: Batgirl can take any sort of poison whether it's deadly or not. She trained to take one spoonful of poison as her training during her training years.

Stealth: She can pull off any disappearing acts on any other people. Enemies and civilians.

Gadgets:

Ribbon Wand: Because she does dancing, it won't complete it without a ribbon wand. Y/N received it from Batman when she told him about her experience with dancing and how she wanted her own ribbon wand one day. The ribbon is strong enough to break a person's neck.

Batarang: These devices are Bat-shaped, throwing weapons usually used to disorientate enemies, and are a ranged substitute for often carrying multiple Batarangs on her person while on patrol.

Grapple Gun: Batgirl frequently uses a grappling gun not unlike that used by Batman. This device fires a strong cable that latches onto a surface and winches Y/N up. She commonly uses this device while patrolling urban rooftops.

Bo Staff: Y/N uses these as a substitute weapon whenever she "forgot" to bring the equipment that Batman provided for her. The bo staff she has was a gift from Deathstroke.

Pocket Knife: Only used it for training, but she is scared to use it on anyone because it could "really hurt them".

Likes:

Batsie (Her bat plush)

The gifts she receives from Matcha

Dress Ups

Shopping

Money

Family Trips

Slumber Parties

Tea Parties

Alfred’s Sweets

Romance Stories

Reading and writing in her secret diary

Dislikes:

Uncomfortable clothing

Chores

Studying

Nightmares

Stress

Thunderstorms

Bruce’s lectures

Lady Shiva and Deathstroke's training methods

Backstory:

There were two different people from different leagues who were rivals since the first ever year. The couple were in love and conceived a child, which was a baby girl who they named Y/N. However, the two leagues found about their secret affair that made the mother's father kill her husband. After she found out about the murder, the mother decided to go after her father and kill him the exact same way, but more painful and slower. This caused the mother to be sentenced to death while she was pregnant with Y/N's little brother, which made her give away her infant daughter to her trusted friend, Lady Shiva. Before her mother was executed, she gave Y/N a handmade stuffed animal that is a purple bat. She named her new best friend, Batsie.

As Y/N was sent to live under Lady Shiva's roof, she was forced to train, study, and do many chores while she was still three years old along with Deathstroke. However, she had an actual human friend named Matcha who helped her show off what the woman who was taking care of her about her true colors by making the young girl into a perfect weapon and helped her escape right after that.

When Y/N was four, she arrived at Gotham City and was wandering around before she arrived at an orphanage building where she was greeted by a woman who was called Miss Wells. Ever since then, she learned how the world was like and lived there before a man named Bruce Wayne came in and brought her to his home, which will be her new life.

[annah-kitathryne]

13 for Cassandra Cain?

Cassandra Cain

13. Your favourite friendship they have?

I have two answers.

1. Fresh Blood era friendship with Tim Drake. Their debate over Batman and the symbol, ans becoming Batman is interesting [Read 2005 Batman Allies Secret Files story too]. They way that both of them are growing into their own at this point, and it's a bit of a direct contention between the two, but they get along still? Super interesting. Love friends who don't get along all the time. Also them both mourned the same and different people. Not quite siblings yet, but good friends.

2. Brenda Miller!

Cass is having a civilian only friend. Cass is learning to be someone outside of the mask. Cass, who is struggling, and Brenda, who is being a good person. I think this connection and friendship is super important to Cass's development as a character and the ultimate payoff to some of the underlining themes from the beginning of Batgirl 2000. Cass from the beginning wouldn't have done a house party and dressed up. It wasn't something Cass cared about.

[dailycass-cain]

Wait, so in your reply on that last post- early on, the editor Joseph illidge talked to the writers about Cass being related to shiva and Cain naming her in an homage, or just Cain naming her Cassandra?

He said on Twitter years ago that it was discussed that there was a family connection between the two but it wasn't pursued back in the Puckett days. You can see it here.

So the reason where this comes from as well is the only story from Puckett/Scott that hasn't EVER been reprinted in their Batgirl run. It's from DC: Secret Files & Origins #2 (2002) called "Rematch".

In it we see what Shiva has been doing in the year since Cass accepted her death match request. And well...

It mirrors #23's Cass reaction to a holo video of Shiva. I mean the look on Shiva has a real older Cass feel to it.

But like I said they "talked" about it but never full on went with it. Andersen Gabrych on the other hand did full-on go with it later on in Batgirl Vol. 1.

[fantastic-nonsense]

You mentioned about your cass cain reddit post (read it all and loved it btw) that you knew even more behind the scenes dc drama than what made it into the post. If you’re comfortable with it and still remember, would you like to share some of the behind the scenes dc drama that didn’t make it into that post now? (Ofc just ignore/delete this ask if you’re not comfortable with it I was just curious XD)

Necessary context: this ask is referring to this write-up I did for r/HobbyDrama a little over a year ago, which I offhandedly mentioned to a couple of people awhile back was "9 pages in a Word doc and STILL left a bunch of stuff out."

Okay so most of the stuff I left out, I left out because it was more about Barbara or Steph and the larger situation around how DC handled the Batgirl mantle more generally than it was about Cass and the whole debacle that happened there. Since the post was already getting so long, I chose to just not talk about a lot of that for length purposes and to keep the write-up more focused on a) Cass as a character, b) editorial or creative decisions that actually impacted Cass specifically, and c) top-level issues, since the write-up was geared towards an audience who largely doesn't read comics. I also left a few things out because they're somewhat hearsay and/or "known to be true but technically unverifiable information," mostly for credibility reasons.

Largely, the thing you have to understand about DC's treatment of Cass is that there was a major power struggle at DC between those who wanted Barbara Gordon to become Batgirl again and those who wanted Cassandra Cain to remain Batgirl. The "Babs vs. Cass" fight and viewing Cass's treatment within the context of this massive internal push for Batgirl!Babs is the backdrop through which the majority of this industry drama needs to be understood, because otherwise a lot of the stuff that happened to Cass doesn't make much logical sense.

So, with that being said...here's a list of eight things I either cut entirely or barely mentioned that may not necessarily be directly related to Cass but are nonetheless relevant to the larger debacle of "DC's mishandling of the Batgirl mantle" that impacted Cass's character trajectory. General warning for the immense psychic damage you will inevitably experience if you read this and its length, because between the screenshots and quotes and explanations this ended up being much longer than I expected it to be.

Yvonne Craig: The first major thing that I chose to cut was a paragraph about Yvonne Craig, the actress who played Barbara Gordon in Batman '66, and the near hero-worship that a lot of (specifically middle-aged, white male) creatives, editors, and managers at DC had for her. Basically, the broad strokes of this issue is that due to their weird obsession with Yvonne Craig's Babs–which is probably due to them having childhood crushes they never got over–several men with power within DC (including Dan Didio himself) shared a sentiment that Barbara was the "one true Batgirl" and no one else but her should ever be Batgirl. Basically: if Barbara Gordon couldn't be Batgirl, Batgirl as a mantle wasn't worth using at all. This led a concentrated decade-long effort to put Babs back in the Batgirl cowl, which obviously influenced the various attempts to push Cass out of the role.

I chose to cut it for two reasons: it was more related to Babs and why there was such a coordinated effort to make Babs Batgirl again rather than Cass as a character unto herself, and it's largely "very well-respected and often-repeated hearsay, but still hearsay." The prevalence it had within the rank-and-file creatives at DC is suspect, but we know that several prominent creators, editors, and upper management shared that perspective (even if they largely don't talk about it on-record). We know this sentiment absolutely existed; Scott Peterson, for example, talked a bit about how "crazy he was for Yvonne Craig" in his interview about creating Cass. It's just not a particularly well-sourced discussion point and was more suited for a write-up on Babs than it was a write-up on Cass.

Batwoman's Costume Design: I barely mentioned Kate in the write-up and only in relation to how Cass's book was cancelled to make way for the theoretical Batwoman solo book that never happened, but there's actually a lot of really interesting industry drama behind Kate's creation. Specifically as it regards Batgirl...Kate's costume was originally meant for Barbara, per Alex Ross:

"The design I did was initially for the proposed idea of a new version of Batgirl, so it was intended to be another stab at bringing back Barbara Gordon, or having the new Batgirl be costumed as a tribute to her, maybe even with a red-haired wig." -Alex Ross, "Giving Batwoman Her Look"

Ross and Paul Dini had been planning to revive Babs as Batgirl for years, but Bat Office Head Editor Denny O'Neil was staunchly against it so it never happened:

"Paul Dini had this idea of putting Barbara Gordon in the Lazarus Pit to revive her…spine, I guess," Ross said. "At least, that's what he would've done in the television show had they continued doing more cartoons, and her spine was broken the way it was. I thought it was a great idea, and we pitched then-Batman editor Denny O'Neil with these drawings of that costume design.........and that went nowhere. Denny shot it down, because, according to him, everybody loves Barbara Gordon as Oracle and as a handicapped character. The theory was that DC didn't have enough handicapped characters, so they weren't going to do anything with Barbara as she was. And the design went into the drawer." -from "Giving Batwoman her Look"

When O'Neil retired in 2002, the floodgates opened and we started seeing a concentrated creative/editorial push to make Babs Batgirl again. Of course by that time Cass was already well-established, so Ross's design was later re-purposed for Kate Kane's Batwoman and the power struggle largely manifested in a gradual sidelining of Cass from major Bat events (starting with Hush, as I mentioned in the write-up) in an effort to pave the way for putting Babs back in the cowl. Which brings me to the next piece of industry drama I cut.

War Games: There's...a lot of industry drama behind both the conception and execution of War Games. Most of it isn't particularly relevant to this answer or the original write-up, but there are two things that are. One, the fact that Stephanie's death was mandated by editorial and everyone involved knew it was coming. This is what prompted Steph's temporary takeover of the Robin mantle. Depending on who you believe, either Robin writer Bill Willingham, Batgirl writer Dylan Horrocks, Detective Comics writer/Bat Office editor Andersen Gabrych, or Dan Didio himself suggested that Stephanie become Robin as a story trick for readers and a sort of narrative "consolation prize" in preparation for the fact that they were about to kill her:

“The whole way through it was planned purely as a trick to play on the readers, that we would fool them into thinking that the big event was that Stephanie Brown would become Robin but we knew all along it was a temporary thing, and she was then going to die at the end of this crossover story.” -Dylan Horrocks at Auckland Writers and Readers Fest in 2011

"I knew coming into the Robin series that Spoiler was doomed to die. And I wouldn’t have done that, but that was already locked in even before I came on Robin, so I had no point at which to say you shouldn’t do this. But, I did I have this hair-brained idea that, well, if she was going to die — she was such a frustrated character…I mean, everything she wanted out of life she pretty much didn’t get. So, can we give her one little reward before she dies and let her become Robin for awhile." -Bill Willingham for Word Balloon in 2012

"You know, me and Stephanie, we go way back. The story with Stephanie Brown goes, they came to me as Executive Editor with the "War Games" story, and said 'we're going to kill Stephanie Brown.' I knew Stephanie Brown for who she was, and said, 'I don't know, if this is going to be the big ending to your story it doesn't feel big enough at the time, because the character wasn't strong enough yet.' So I said, 'Why don't we make her Robin for a short period of time, build some interest in her, and then we kill her!'" -Dan Didio for Newsarama

Steph becoming the major collateral damage of the immediate post-O'Neil editorial era would later set the stage for why she was viewed as an acceptable compromise choice to become Batgirl during the Reborn era.

Two, the writer of Cass's solo at the time, Dylan Horrocks, was so discomforted and offended by the concept of the story (and particularly its treatment of Steph) that he deliberately kept Cass out of the event's "main action" as much as possible during her tie-in issues. This has been widely reported for years and while Horrocks himself rarely goes on record about it, he has made some comments that more-or-less confirm it:

Horrocks: "I'd write [Batgirl] very differently today....for me, it was...complicated. One day I'll write about the experience properly. The War Games event was deeply depressing." -Dylan Horrocks on Twitter in 2012/2013

Sidenote: War Games was actually the last straw for both Ed Brubaker and Horrocks; Brubaker was fed up with all the editorial mandates/executive meddling and Horrocks was frustrated by the Bat Office's misogynistic and grimdark story direction, so they both left right after (Brubaker for Marvel to write Bucky Barnes' resurrection and Horrocks for indie comics).

So why are Horrocks' writing choices relevant to DC's subsequent treatment of Cass? Well, as I stated in the original write-up, it heralded the beginning of a "there can be only one" era for female Bat characters. DC could handle the idea of several male Batfam members running around at the same time but apparently more than one female Bat at a time (regardless of moniker) was just too much for them. It was also the last major Bat event to feature Cass in any significant capacity until her post-reboot reintroduction. So while she was largely removed from the action for good reasons, War Games stands as a haunting precursor to the direction DC was headed with her character: sidelined and replaced in favor of characters editors were planning on using (Kate), could agree on using (Steph), or liked more (Babs).

Batgirl (2008)'s Sales Performance: I cut this bullet point largely because it's ultimately a footnote in the larger saga that was Cass's limbo years. Basically, after the resolution of the Evil Cass arc DC reassured fans that they "had plans" for Cass as Batgirl. This later manifested via her appearances in the Batman and the Outsiders (2007) run and (eventually) a new solo mini. Unfortunately, Batgirl: Redemption Run didn't perform nearly as well as DC hoped for a variety of reasons: many Cass fans swore it off due to it being written by Adam Beechen (the writer who wrote her heel-face turn in the first place), the first issue was poorly written, the story wasn't particularly engaging, etc. The tepid reception and subsequent poor sales of this mini were then used to retroactively justify booting Cass out of the Batgirl mantle entirely during the aftermath of Bruce's death in Final Crisis and the Battle for the Cowl event.

However, DC was already planning on taking Batgirl from Cass and giving it back to Babs at the time, and it likely would have happened even if the mini had done well. The way we know? This image foretelling the events of the Reborn era and Blackest Night was teased in the final issue of Dick's Nightwing solo, as was this one from the end of Babs' Birds of Prey run. That's not Cass kissing Dick, folks; that's Barbara Gordon, Batgirl once again. This planned choice was, as I stated on Reddit, later confirmed by Dan Didio in an Editor's Column during Steph's Batgirl run, who said that at one point Babs was "as close to being Batgirl again as Dick was to being dead in Infinite Crisis" (which is to say, very nearly a done deal). I suspect that only a last-minute internal writer revolt–particularly from Gail Simone, who we know was a vocal supporter of keeping Babs Oracle–stopped it from happening.

Cass's Absence in Battle for the Cowl: I mentioned this in the original write-up but largely glossed over the particulars. In-universe, Cass had just been adopted by Bruce, was fully Batgirl again, and was largely reconciled to the rest of the Batfamily after the Evil Cass arc. And yet her only appearances during the Battle for the Cowl event (and the aftermath of Final Crisis more generally) were cameos in the main book and a main role in the BftC: The Network tie-in oneshot. Literally the only thing she did for the entire duration of BftC was create the Network, which helped the Bats deal with Gotham rogues, and take out a few criminals alongside Huntress. So you have DC continually downplaying and sidelining Cass in a story where she reasonably should have had a major, co-starring role. This event also marked her final appearance as Batgirl, which leads into the next issue I cut.

Batgirl (2009)'s Marketing: this one's very complicated and doing it justice would involve tracking down a lot of old ads and interviews revolving around how DC solicited and marketed this book in the lead-up to the reveal that Stephanie Brown was the new Batgirl, which I simply didn't have time to do at the time of the original write-up and ultimately would have just sidetracked the whole thing, but in short: readers didn't actually know who the protagonist of the new Batgirl solo was going to be when the title was announced. DC had cancelled Birds of Prey and announced both a new Batgirl book and a miniseries called "Oracle: Search for the Cure" (which later became Oracle: The Cure). So Babs' return to the cowl was being solidly teased, but Cass was still Batgirl and showed no real signs of wanting to give up the mantle.

DC's marketing and editorial teams played up this ambiguity by baiting both Babs and Cass fans in order to drive sales: this included teasing ads, early issue solicts that deliberately obscured who was wearing the cape, and a refusal to confirm who the Batgirl of the upcoming solo title would be during interviews and con panels. They chose to heighten the ambiguity even within the title itself: early covers of the run often obscure Steph's hair, eyes, and sometimes even her whole face; the first two issue covers even feature Steph in both Cass's and Babs' Batgirl suits to heighten the confusion. So was the Batgirl of the new title going to be a newly "cured" Barbara Gordon, a second shot for Cassandra Cain, or someone new entirely?

Obviously, none of these things happened. As we all know, Stephanie became Batgirl. The choice to make Steph Batgirl was a compromise decision, as Didio mentions in his editor's note (linked above):

"After long discussions it was agreed that Oracle had become such a strong character there was no sense going back. And since we wanted to make a change, Cassandra no longer seemed right for the role (Not to worry Cassandra fans; plans are afoot, in a very big way, for our favorite non-lethal assassin in 2010). As for Wendy, Bette, and Misfit, none felt strong enough for the position. That left us with the one choice we all agreed on, Stephanie Brown......from the time of her death to the outcry for a memorial and ultimately to her return, there is no denying that her character had connected with a portion of our fanbase and, more important, connected to the Batfamily. It just seemed to make sense that she was the one, and given her history and ties to all the members of Batman's world, the potential is there to make this new Batgirl the one fans will be speaking about for a very long time."

So as previously stated, Steph's treatment during the War Games era ultimately set the stage for her to be the compromise choice for the new Batgirl; she became this interim buffer character because everyone at DC was fighting over Babs vs. Cass and she was the only one everyone could agree deserved the title, and she thrived in that role over the next two years. And a new Birds of Prey book was then announced in the aftermath of Oracle: The Cure and Blackest Night, so Babs' prominence as Oracle survived for another two years until the New 52.

But Cass? Well...Cass unceremoniously handed the Batgirl mantle off to Steph, seemingly fucked off for no discernable reason, and showed up in a grand total of six issues across the entire Batbook slate over the next two years while being largely written out of the Batfam's history and having her reasoning for leaving Gotham retconned from being a choice into being an order from Bruce. Which segues us directly into the next piece of drama that I somewhat glossed over in the original write-up.

The Reborn-era Editorial Erasure Edicts: Bryan Q. Miller, the writer on Steph's Batgirl solo, was under strict editorial edict to basically not mention Cass or include her in the run if he didn't absolutely have to. For example, when he asked editorial if there was a reason why Cass left Gotham, they basically told him "she leaves. why? Because she just does, so your book can exist. Come up with a reason to make her leave and then don't use her."

This era is still pretty opaque in terms of what we know about what various writers were and weren't able to do with Cass, but we do know that Miller specifically was disallowed from featuring her in-person in Batgirl and highly discouraged from mentioning her in general. However, he noted on multiple occasions that he liked Cass and would be happy to use her:

Babs and Steph are the core of this title, no doubt about it. While we'll have another passing reference/flashback to Cassandra soon, I'm leaving the rest of Cassandra's story to whichever lucky duck gets to write her elsewhere in 2010. As for Batwoman, I'm leaving Kate in Rucka's capable hands for the time being. -Miller in an interview with CBR in 2009

If at some point the story I’m telling feels like it can only be told with Cassandra as a part of it, then believe me, I’ll try to find a way to work her in. As it stands currently, however, Cassandra’s fate and future are not in my hands. -Miller in an inerview for Broken Frontier in 2010

Had the book continued past Issue #24, we know that Cass would have had a recurring role as Black Bat in the present day as well as being featured in a Batgirls time-travel story, teased through one of Steph's Black Mercy hallucinations in that final issue. Other than that, we still have no real idea to what extent Cass's presence would have been allowed in the Batgirl book had the New 52 not happened.

Now, I will note that some of the omissions of Cass during Steph's run were seemingly his choice. He's mentioned that he left Cass off of Steph's infamous "Batfamily whiteboard history lesson" cold open from Batgirl #15 on purpose, for example:

The reason she didn’t make the white-board history lesson for Wendy was simply that I didn’t feel it appropriate to poke fun at her. Steph has a smirky little good natured time editorializing the Bat family tree. To suddenly have a serious/tribute panel in the mix would have gotten in the way of the tone of the opening. Now, that’s from the writing standpoint. From a character standpoint, Steph drew for Wendy what she deemed to be the pertinent players on the Gotham board and their connections/histories, given her role as Proxy. You’ll note, she also didn’t mention her own role as Spoiler (though she just couldn’t RESIST drawing that adorable little Spoiler with the broken hearts over in the Tim/Robin section). -Bryan Q. Miller responding to a fan letter from Caitlin in 2010

It's certainly possible that the editorial edict surrounding Cass's presence in the book also impacted his decision to leave her out of the history lesson. We simply don't know. However, the above response is the only statement he's ever given on that issue and we've yet to hear anything to the contrary.

Outside of Batgirl, DC also went to considerable effort during this era to erase Cass's importance both as Batgirl and to the Batfamily more generally. From being basically excluded from every Bat book except Tim's globetrotting Red Robin book to descriptions like these:

Black Bat: one of several former (and temporary) Batgirls, the wonderful Cassandra Cain has adopted a new Batman Inc. identity as the Black Bat, operating out of Hong Kong. -Batman. Inc (HC Edition)

It was not a fun time to be a Cass fan.

Elsewhere, we know that Gail Simone was actively campaigning editorial to let her use Cass in a significant capacity in her relaunched Birds of Prey book. There was also a substantial rumor at the time that Cass would be taking the White Canary mantle from the villain Simone introduced in her opening arc (see this twitter thread for more on that). For varying reasons related to both DC's general treatment of Cass at the time and a hesitance to give Cass to Gail specifically (which I'll elaborate more on in a moment), neither of these things ever happened.

We also know that Scott Snyder loved Cass and tried to get DC to let him write a Cass story on multiple occasions–a struggle which continued throughout the early reboot years and eventually resulted in the creation of Harper Row, as I mentioned in the original write-up. He eventually managed to convince editorial to let him write Gates of Gotham, which co-starred Cass in a significant role for the first time since 2008 and ended on a good note...and also wound up being her final appearance in comics for nearly five years.

Other than Snyder and Fabian Nicieza (who wrote the majority of Cass's few Reborn-era appearances in Red Robin), critical darling and editorial favorite Grant Morrison was the only other writer who was allowed to handle Cass. They're the one who gave Cass the "Black Bat" codename in Batman Inc. #6 and supposedly wanted to do a Cass and Steph team-up later on in that book. Unfortunately, because of the impending New 52 reboot they were ultimately only allowed to use Steph in "Leviathan Strikes" (and even her ability to be Batgirl in that final appearance was up in the air for awhile, causing the book's artist make Spoiler!Steph sketches for the story just in case editorial nixed her appearance as Batgirl).

So going back to Gail Simone for a moment, why wasn't she allowed to write Cass in Birds of Prey? After all, she was one of the few female writers in the comic industry, and a successful, well-renowned one at that. She was writing a women-led book helmed by Barbara Gordon that had featured and guest-starred a wide variety of DC's female heroes over the years and was actively asking to use the character. Well, even besides the various editorial mandates sidelining Cass and keeping writers from using her, there was another problem.

Gail Simone's Proposed "Christian Conversion Arc": The year is 2006, we are still pre-Evil Cass arc, and Gail Simone has been asked by DC management to pitch what she would do with Dick and Cass if assigned either Nightwing or Batgirl to write. She never actually turned in a Nightwing pitch, though apparently she had pretty strong ideas, but she did turn in her Cass pitch. And what did Gail Simone come up with?

Cass saves a Christian minister from a robbery, discovers Christianity, and becomes a hardcore convert who quotes the Bible and talks scripture with gang members while wearing a white outfit and being called "Angel of the Bat" as she protects Gotham's homeless and marginalized residents. No, really. That was her pitch.

I can't even begin to explain how bonkers this idea is and how many problematic elements are baked into it both conceptually and in the inevitable execution had the pitch actually been greenlit. I could talk about how Gail presents a fundamental misunderstanding of Cassandra as a character throughout her description of the pitch. I could talk about how unsuited this kind of arc is for Cass more generally given her stories up to that point. I could talk about the racist history of Christian missionaries in Asia and the awful implications of Cass apparently needing to find God to look after Gotham's most vulnerable residents and be "genuinely happy for the first time." I could talk about how the Batfamily already had two sincerely devout Christian characters in Jean-Paul Valley and Helena Bertinelli and forcing that narrative onto Cass was doing nothing new or novel. I could talk about the problems with Gail, an atheist, deciding that this was an arc she felt qualified to write for any character (much less one like Cass).

Instead, I'll simply say that this failed pitch and Simone's consistently poor, exoticized handling of other Asian characters like Cheshire and Lady Shiva likely contributed to editorial's hesitance to hand her permission to write Cass during the Reborn era, and that I ultimately cut it from the Reddit write-up because I felt like including it would derail the post from talking about what happened to talking about "could have beens" (since this would have theoretically happened in place of the Evil Cass arc). It leaves Cassandra Cain as a truly good, kind person attempting to do good and save everyone she can rather than the racist caricature of a villain that we ultimately got; that's about the only good thing I can say about it.

......I'm sorry, everyone. I was going to do one final entry and talk about the Rebirth-era storytelling decisions and editorial edicts but I got to the end of this one and found I just couldn't do it anymore. I'm the embodiment of the Ben Affleck and Hayao Miyazaki smoking memes right now. I'm so tired, y'all. I'm so tired.

There's infinite amounts of racist, sexist, and ableist industry drama bullshit that I could cover related to DC's handling of the Batgirls and Cass more specifically and no write-up or additional posts will ever be able to sufficiently cover any of it with the depth, attention, and outrage it deserves. There's always more to talk about. There's always one more piece of awful bullshit to drag out of the shadows. There's always one more cut in the thousand fans have already talked about over the past twenty years. I could write a full-length book featuring several currently non-existent tell-all interviews with various creators and likely still not reach the bottom of the barrel. And the things that will likely never be public knowledge far outnumber the things we actually do know about DC's shitty treatment of Cass (and by extension Babs, Steph, and every other woman associated with the Batfamily).

And while things are better for Cass now than they were then, we're still far from any of the girls being treated well. Unfortunately, we still have a long way to go. One day, I hope this won't be the case.