#Fandom discourse

[far-from-fran]

Ok, so this is a growing problem, and it bugs me as someone who loves to read, but struggles to find the time/motivation.

If y'all don't want to read something... just don't read it. None of this ChatGPT/AI shit. Like? If you have to speedrun a book, at least use a summary made by a real person. Or better yet, use an audiobook. Like! Why are people trying to cheat reading??? You're not in school anymore, you can read for fun! Reading can be fun, have we forgotten that????

what is HAPPENING

[derangedfujoshi]

I have a visceral disgust for people who say shit like "I don't care about this STUPID and MEANINGLESS pro/anti ship drama it's just FICTION and I am an adult with a job I don't have time for your FANDOM bullshit" like

Janet... people have been subjected to REAL cyberbullying, REAL death threats, REAL rape threats, REAL doxxing that made them lose their jobs, REAL harassment in the form of their own csem videos fished from the darkweb and thrown back in their faces, people have DIED Janet.

So really, I'm glad that you live in a comfy bubble so far removed from the realities some other folks have to go through and that you don't have to read gross/heart wrenching/downright scary stories, truly I think it would be lovely if we could all share a bit of that bliss-

But I think you got a little too detached and a little too entitled and I need you to be for fucking real a second and consider to maybe shut the fuck up forever about the subject if you're not willing to at the very least get informed on how much not "just fandom drama" this whole debacle has become in the past uhm FOUR YEARS? Not counting the first four when the whole shitshow started, mind you.

It's completely understandable to not want to engage with such a negative subject to preserve your own mental health!! But if you're going to "not engage" then do that. Do not engage. At all. And spare us your two cents.

"I'm an adult with a job" pfft, yeah, and?

[bunnakit]

coming outta left field and talking about something that has nothing to do with me bc i don't have anything better to do with my time right now.

that whole fandom discourse was whack and i'm sorry @lurkingshan and @waitmyturtles had to deal with that. there's def been plenty of posts i haven't liked or haven't agreed with in fandom and you shrimply just have to scroll! there's no need to make a response unless you're coming from a genuine place and can have a respectful discussion. if you're coming from an emotional place you just have to say "people like different things" and move on.

i personally am not mutuals with shan because we have a lot of different opinions about things - this is not a dig at shan, she doesn't follow me either prob for the same reason! i think she articulates her posts incredibly well and comes from a very genuine place. i don't know turtles that well bc i haven't been in the space much these days but based on what i've seen she seems much the same.

media analysis is and should be vast and varied, that's what makes it fun, and not everyone is going to share your opinion and people will always interpret things differently based on past experiences, differences in knowledge, etc. they aren't evil for that.

this is what i think is one of the most important things from shan's post -

You don't owe anyone your presence here, and you don't have to express opinions on everything or respond to tags or asks if you don't have anything to say. Sometimes you might just want to take a break from posting, some things in the discourse might just flow right on by you, sometimes you will not have a firm opinion on a debate. You can post as much or as little as you want. You can suddenly decide you don't want to talk about a show anymore. You can not log into your tumblr for days or weeks at a time. Do you, boo!

to add to this, and i know this won't be a very well received statement, if you're finding yourself having these big emotional responses just because someone didn't like your fav it may be time to take a step back and reevaluate your priorities in fandom. as someone that took a break from fandom and dramas in general i highly recommend taking a second and finding your peace again. humans are emotional by design, it's what makes us great, but if you're getting violently wound up about someone else's opinion of a fictional piece of media created for entertainment purposes i think it's time to take a deep breath.

fictional media is art and people can and should always have different opinions about art. yes, even art featuring your favs.

i left the fandom for a long time because Last Twilight deeply hurt my feelings as a disabled person with an incurable disease - but that's on me. i'm sure many people found the message an uplifting one of hope (as i believe it was intended to be.) my personal experiences caused me to have a different take on it - but again that is because of my personal experiences and does not make my opinion of it right or wrong, it simply is.

tldr: i think it's important to remember that there are no correct opinions in fandom; if there were they wouldn't be opinions but irrefutable facts. you need to get used to seeing opinions and reads that differ from your own and embrace the art of filtering unless you feel capable of having a calm and respectful discussion.

i wanted to share my thoughts as someone completely unassociated with shan and turtles from a place of complete neutrality. if you're going to have a discussion have a discussion, if you're just gonna rag on someone because they didn't mindlessly jerk off your fav keep it to your group chat or something, don't be a tar pit.

this being said, get used to seeing things even if you try to filter! it's not perfect, i've filtered out spare me your mercy bc i haven't seen it yet and want to form my own opinions but things have absolutely come across my radar (either in my own tags, clicking links, etc.) it happens, don't be weird about it.

[urfavisaminor]

Shipping ABUSE is supporting ABUSE. a short opinion piece

(P.S. BEFORE ANY OF YOU ASK this is NOT SATIRE!!!!!!! I AM MAKING ARGUMENTS THAT ARE VERY SERIOUS AND MEANY TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY, listen to ur ant queen! blindly. THIS IS A VERY VERY VERY VEYR VERY VEYR EGRYR VERY VEYR VEYR VERY SERIOUS BLOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I'm not satire I'm not dairy I am serious and smart you people just can't handle my genius I'm so dmart if you disagree with me ur wrong and I'm right

Noq to the main topic, why peoshippers are hitler, while yes, I’m talking about fictional characters, don’t you get it?????? If you write about characters yelling at each other, having a small argument or even an "enemies to lovers"/"rivals to lovers" you’re basically telling your readers that it’s okay to let their partners gasloghtt and hitthem IRL!!!!!! You’re ruining lives with your degenerate scum smut! ITS YOUR FAULT AND I HATE YOU

Bakudeku is proship btw (proship problematic ship) because Bakaga told Deeki to khs once in middle school and was a meanie

“But it’s just fiction!” WELL SO IS NAZI PROPAGANDA so if ur proship just know you're comparable to actual nazis and are clearly racist and ableist and homophobic and transphobic. What’s your next excuse? You’re LITERALLY training people to ignore red flags.

And before anyone says, “It’s just a ship!” let me remind you that words have power. Your abusive ship fanfic lemon could be THE reason someone’s cousin’s roommate's aunt's co-worker's friend decides to stay with their toxic boyfriend. That will happen AND IT WILL BE YOUR RESPONSABILITY. IT *IS* YOU JOB TO HANDLE OTHER PEOPLES TRIGGERS, MAKING THIS CONTENT MAKES YOU HUST AS BAD AS ACTUAL ABUSERS.

NORMALIZING ABUSE IS ABUSE. there's no other motive you would ship this otherwise!

None of you care about real victime (the only real victims are the ones who dont use this shit to "cope"").

In conclusion: You’re all enabling abusers only comparable to the literal devil. Go outside and touch grass. Preferably the kind that makes you itch.

ur wrong and I'm right !

I am so smart so smart so smart

It's okay for me to like problematic media thought! I like problematic ships CORRECTLTy ur just consume it not correctly

try doing it correctly next time

I am not hypocritical

no

[happypotato48]

Ok i guess i'm getting my Thai ass slightly into this mess.

*disclaimer Thai people are not a monolite yadayada. i'm internet friends with @lurkingshan and @waitmyturtles. also i can't botherd to read everything that everyone had posted, i do have the time but not the energy to engage with this whole mess.

First thing first I DIDN'T LIKED OR FINISHED Spare Me Your Mercy. i found that show to be dull af so i stopped at ep 5. so here one Thai audience who didn't like that show.

Because i didn't care about this show that much i haven't been keeping up with the discourse. so i'm not gonna speak like i know what everyone had all said and done. i'm not here to pass judgement on anyone and i will admit that this post in itself may constitute as a vague post. ya'll write too much and i'm just here to say my piece.

So here i go YA'LL NEEDS TO CHILL! like idk what is going on but sometime from various instances i feel like i'm being spoken over when some of you cited the most poppular Thai fans reactions to shows as the default thing that everyone need to adhere to. and it feel patronizing sometime when people think that Thai QLs are this precious baby that needs protecting from outside criticism. i did said in my rant that ya'll are the guests but i also did said YOU'RE ALSO WELCOME HERE. Thailand is not a perfect country and it's a diverse one, and we deserve good faith criticism as much as any countries.

Lastly i may have not know @lurkingshan and @waitmyturtles for very long but my interactions with them both on here and in private has been very positive and i like them both as people and as critics/opinions havers of Asian media (Shan would shames you sometime when you're simping for horrible men, but hey we all need friend like that.) so i want people to keep that in mind that This Wet Dumpster Thai gay man who feels seen by Thai QLs and love them so much that he going back to school at age 30 to pursue a career in This scary Industry is saying that they're Good Peeps and Thai QLs and Asian Media fandom in general is a better/smarter place with them in it.

CHLL THE FUCK OUT AND DON'T BE DICKS!

[chomp-bomb]

People in fandoms really need to let go of canon pairings being endgame.

First off, a disclaimer: I am not saying you can’t like canon pairings. Obviously. I love a lot of canon ships in tons of different fandoms. This is not me saying you can’t ship them or me attacking them so please take more than two seconds to understand what I’m saying before jumping me.

With that out of the way (rant below the cut):

It is actually so frustrating how people cling to canon pairings like they’re the only valid ships to ever exist.

I’m bringing this up specifically because of the new Noxus trailer that came out yesterday. I’ve already seen the absolute warzone that it’s becoming on TikTok with people shouting about how “Katarina has a boyfriend!!! She’s straight!!!” in response to literally any mention of liking the character or shipping her with someone else.

So to the people who think that a character having a Canon partner means that every other ship is wrong: hate to be the one to break this to you, but it’s not actually a reason to invalidate other ships.

I’m gonna bring up the Timebomb vs Lightcannon debate.

Timebomb shippers have been incredibly aggressive towards any Lightcannon shippers, and are so quick to say Lightcannon wouldn’t work because it’s not canon. I’d like to remind you all that canon doesn’t mean people can’t ship Lightcannon. Timebomb being canon doesn’t make it immediately better or higher than Lightcannon. The air of superiority that so many canon shippers have over fanon shippers is completely unwarranted. Your ship is not immediately better because they are canon.

And here’s the thing: I don’t even like Lightcannon myself! I’m very much a Timebomb shipper. But just because I prefer one pairing over the other doesn’t mean that Lightcannon is a bad ship. I can recognize that, despite my own dislike for it, people are entitled to their own interpretations of the characters and their relationships to one another.

I get how easy it is to fall into the mindset of “My pairing is canon, so therefore it is the only correct one and everyone else’s is wrong.” But at the end of the day, it’s not a reason why your ship is better. It doesn’t immediately make you more correct. It doesn’t make every other ship bad. There are tons of canon ships that are downright awful, badly written, or rushed. To be canon is to simply be the creator’s preferred pairing when creating their story. It’s nothing more than that.

People have been obsessing over non canon ships since fandom’s creation. Hell, fandom as a concept itself started because of Kirk x Spock shippers way back when.. I’d say that makes fanon pairings pretty important, don’t you think?

Anyways this once again is very common sense, but I’ll repeat that I’m not trying to attack or insult anyone regardless of where you stand on this argument.

[bungoustraypups]

this is genuinely good to point out and very interesting as well. this is a cultural narrative talking point. yall are only making it meme-y bc you think omegaverse is cringe which is a you problem. i'm gonna choose to look at this as the interesting factoid that it is and reflect on it

Healthcare issues reflected in yaoi ✊😔

[clockworkspider]

Okay kids. Proship is a stance for fans.

It means, basically, someone who supports the freedom to ship and create shipping fanwork uncensored and unharassed, regardless of the moral appropriateness of said ship.

A proshipper does not have to have a single problematic ship. It's about supporting the freedom for other ppl to ship what they want.

Obviously not everyone has to take this stance. I understand if you don't. However...

A ship cannot be a proship based on how problematic it is.

That's meaningless. People create problematic fanwork for the cleanest purest ships or will find problematic angles for it if that's what they're into. People will ship toxic people to make them learn from each other and grow if that's what they're into.

I've seen people who are into the most vanilla ship bend over backwards to say their ship is problematic cause that's what they're into. While other people will bend over backwards to argue how their ship isn't proship. It's a pointless discussion. The inmate quality of the ship doesn't dictate how fans engage with it.

"Oh but it means problematic ship nowadays."

WELL MAYBE IT SHOULDN'T!!!

Focusing on individual ships and whether one is allowed to engage with it kinda just obliterate any meaning to both the discussion and water down your own stance. If you wanna call a ship problematic just use the full word! It's not that much longer! That's a different discussion!

Words needs to have consistent meaning or they fail their purpose to communicate!!!

[glubandeepspace]

this is the first n ideally last time i'll be linking a tiktok here let alone abt fandom discourse but anyway i think this person's thorough conclusions matter a lot more than some of the reductive nonsense so many usually-white westerners have been contagiously saying in multiple off directions. watching it full would be neat

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTYKJ3wss/

[waitmyturtles]

Hi there! I was just reading up on your post about all The Discourse that happened with MBDL (I don’t follow them but their post showed up on my For You dash and in isolation I agreed with it but then saw your addition and followed the posts and realised it was part of a much bigger conversation and *wowser*).

This is just a tiny question but I’m curious as to what you think because you are very active discourse wise on here. When you have a “negative” (or what can be perceived by some as negative) opinion about a show/pairing/etc, do you believe you shouldn’t use tags? In your 4 Minutes example you had a TW at the start of the post but still used tags. So if people were searching the 4 Minutes tag they would see your post, even tho you had a TW at the start. And to be clear I don’t think you were being like nasty or anything, you were stating your opinion but it was an opinion that could be deemed as negative by some, therefore, some people would argue that you shouldn’t use tags because the tags should only be used for, I guess, “nice” posts?

Like obviously there is a difference between writing an analysis/review/your feelings in a measured way and being straight up hateful but I’m curious about what you think about drawing the line between the two? Like I saw someone say regarding The Heart Killers that they don’t care about KantBison and just want to watch the FadelStyle scenes and someone commented, “why would you use the tag to say something like this if you have negative shit to say don’t use the tag!” (But they were… ruder about it)

I guess on the one hand it’s like, yes, if you’re being a “hater”, then don’t wander into a fandom space and yell at people enjoying something, but what can be deemed as “negative” and “hateful” can be a subjective thing because some fans often confuse being “critical/having criticism” with being “hateful”. I think the problem is some fans will see a post that has critiques and read it as an attack and say, “why would you tag this and enter it into the fandom space, you should have left it tagless so that it floated in the netherworld and I never saw it!”

Sorry if this makes no sense!! But yeah, to tag or not to tag, that is the question.

Hello @summerofofelia! This is a great question, one that I have thoughts on and that I also posed to my homies. As you have gone through The Discourse (capitalized, ha, and I’m sorry you waded through that), this is a relevant topic for the moment!

Generally speaking, I don’t think any one faction “owns” a tag. This perspective of “owning” a tag strikes me as an unnecessary power move of censorship of thought.

Some of the core arguments we’ve been having on each side of the Discourse have been around the question of: what pieces of art are ripe and available for criticism? My position (and that of my homies) is: if it’s art, it’s up for analysis, full stop. And I think you’re seeing, in the THK tag, power moves by people wanting to control what *can* be seen in that tag. And others can be susceptible to those power moves and public shaming moments, without even knowing it.

By the time I had gotten around to watching that 4 Minutes finale, I had done some previous tag scanning and saw the reviews were mixed. So I watched the episode, processed it (angrily), TWed my post for accountability, and went at it. Even though the environment of feeling about that finale was mixed, I also wanted to note, before anyone read my post, that my feelings were strong. As expected, I received mostly agreement from people who felt similarly about the finale, and some detracting feedback from folks who hadn’t read or heeded the TW.

Like I said in the Discourse post: I expect people to exert agency and personal responsibility to read what they read, and filter/block what they don’t want to read. The filter and block functions are there for a reason. The TW is important to me in these moments where I know a show has meant something to some folks, but — when I think a show has narratively failed (my main criterion for feeling if a show was artistically successful or not), I do feel like giving it the critical dress-down, and figuring out what worked and what didn’t. I think that process is not only worth writing about, but it’s also worth a contribution to the thoughtful annals of meta and feedback that this small community has about the shows. If we didn’t do that, the feedback on all of these shows, I think, would be universally bland, groupthinky, and untruthful.

Art is worth analyzing — and anyone who wants to write criticism has a right to do so.

I also want to distinguish among meta, versus mean-spirited blather (like unnecessary bullying of a celeb or a pair), versus the kind of comment that that blogger said about THK. These categories are anchored on intent.

I think all purposeful meta (including, tone-wise, critical rants) gets tagged, because it’s not being done to wantonly bully the actors or the show itself without analytical proof.

I kinda think that THK comment is hilarious, honestly, ha. I don’t think it was being done out of a mean spirit. It could be tagged — or it might not. Someone *was* speaking their truth, specifically about the show. And if another reading didn’t like reading that truth, then — they can block that blog, as I wrote in the Discourse, and curate their Tumblr experience.

Saying, say, that FirstKhao or JoongDunk simply suck, and just leaving that hanging out there like mistletoe, without analytical proof? Condescending to them meanly? Something like “idk I just don’t like his face?” I’d say don’t tag that. What is it meant to contribute to a larger conversation, which Tumblr itself is designed to foster? If a post is meant to simply bully, without context, I’d say, no tags (and reconsider why you’re on Tumblr).

Finally, as my homies and I were ruminating on, as mentioned above, readers have to exercise agency and personal responsibility on this site. Readers can’t expect any one blogger to fall in line with their demands. That’s a passive, Karen-esque demonstration of an attempt to steal power from another person. That fandom Karen isn’t taking responsibility for their own mind and body, and is expecting another person to do so on their behalf.

As a meta writer, I don’t think or write like anyone else, and it’s clear from the feedback I’ve received over the last two and a half years on this site that people have appreciated my writing and singular perspectives on shows. I also love the writing process. And part of being on Tumblr is sharing the joy of the love of whatever art we’re consuming (even if we’re critical of it), because Tumblr is about sharing and, hey — it’s a social media site. So I also think that that kind of sharing is important to consider when we use tags. As journalists know — writers write, in part, for the byline, and in part to share their work with readers. Tags help us disseminate our work and create a community of conversation around the art that’s worth pondering.

We *just* had this with Spare Me Your Mercy, with AWESOME dialogue among fans, stans, and critics of the shows that was diverse, considerate, enlightening, RESPECTFUL, and so much fun. People on all sides of the debate were reblogging each other and respecting our positions. I couldn’t have written my final assessment without tag diving, and I’m glad people weren’t afraid to praise or critique the show on the tag — because seeing that spectrum of reflection was, I think, a truthful assessment of how the show landed in community.

One last point. I think criticism itself is an art of writing to strive for doing well. (My 4M rant doesn’t count in this category, lol, but much of my writing does strive for this standard.) Many of my favorite writers are critics. My personal faves are some of the New Yorker stalwarts — Hilton Als on theater (if you consume Western queer media, I think Als’s writing is required reading), Anthony Lane on television, Pauline Kael on film. And Nat Hentoff, who wrote for the Village Voice, defined jazz criticism. I’ve written before about the importance of good criticism.

I don’t want to imagine a world where art critiques aren’t welcome. Criticism, as I wrote in the link above, so often lifts and celebrates art, even when that art is imperfect. (And it’s so rare when we get PERFECT art. Super rare.) If a piece of art fails on certain markers of success, like narrative coherence — is that not worth analyzing….because of another anonymous person’s rubric of arbitrary criteria?

I don’t buy it. That’s tone-policing censorship. The fandom Karens don’t own that turf. And I think that’s when using the tag is important.

It’s worth diversifying the global conversation on art. Tumblr is literally designed to do this via à vis tags. And Tumblr established the filter and block functions so that readers could protect themselves, with personal agency, and curate their own experiences. That agency doesn’t fall on anyone else but the individual reader. The writers can’t read the readers’ minds.

TL;DR no one owns tags! It ain’t a turf war.

[unhingedzaryah]

…I get what you’re trying to say but as someone who’s black, nonbinary and chubby, there honestly needs to be more character x reader in those categories because 9 times outta 10 when I’m reading character x reader, the reader is very much white even if it’s not blatantly stated.

Different people deserve to see themselves in character x reader and in fandom in general. 🫶🏾

To add on, I think it all boils down to finding people who write what you like and are comfortable with. It takes some digging but there’s someone writing for exactly what you want…and if there isn’t, you can always be the first. <3

[urfavisaminor]

ghost from cod is a minor

Simon "Ghost" Riley from call of duty is a lower income adult minor!

[shyjusticewarrior]

At some point "fanfic can be as good as professional writing" became "fanfic should be as good as professional writing" and that's caused major damage to fandom spaces.

[phantasm-masquerade]

reblog for a bigger sample size if you feel like it

[fandom-blahs]

I have to ask, when did it change from being “pro-(certain ship) because I could swear it was used to mean “pro-Reylo” and in specific fandoms that made you a proshipper

Uh- are you aware of the meaning of proship?

Proship has never meant anything except a combination of three ideas:

Ship and let ship (your ships don't harm me and vice-versa) and YKINMK (your kink is not my kink, and that's okay; my kink stories don't harm you and vice-versa)

Harassment over fiction is not acceptable

Censorship of fiction is not acceptable either

Any other definitions are made by antis, not proshippers, and are an attempt at revisionism to justify harassment based on false claims.