#Athenaeus

[jeannereames]

"Nothing in the ancient sources says Alexander was gay!"

Oh? How about this?

φιλόπαις δ᾽ ἦν ἐκμανῶς καὶ Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ βασιλεύς.

"King Alexander was a quite mad boy-lover."

Probably better rendered, "King Alexander was exceptionally infatuated (mania) with boys."

*cough*

(Athen. 603a/13.80, as the preface before recounting one story from Dikaiarchos, a student of Aristotle, and another from Karystios of Pergamon, 2nd century BCE)

No, I wasn't out looking, but I've been reading through Athenaeus as part of the Hephastion-Krateros monograph research, and that was right there.

Yeah, Athenaeus isn't always trustworthy, a late author, but he's one of our major sources for a lot of fragments from earlier (especially Greek) historians now lost. For you Bagoas fans, btw, the first story mentions ATG's affection for Bagoas. The second story, from Karystios, related an incident at a banquet thrown by Krateros. The point of that story is to underscore Alexander's self-control with regard to sex and propriety. He could have demanded a kiss from the boy in question, but knew it would hurt the boy's lover (erastes), so turned it down.

The one issue with Athenaeus, even when he's "quoting" other historians--he's rarely-to-never ACTUALLY quoting them as we understand it. He's paraphrasing to suit the narrative he's telling at the moment. All of Book 13 is about eros.

The nuts who want the proof-texting neither understand nor care about the finer points of historiography. I doubt they've ever even HEARD of Athenaeus, although some have read the highly sanitized/moralizing of Plutarch on ATG's sexuality.

If you want to read the whole little section: Athenaeus 13.80 on Perseus

[red-moon-at-night]

Athenaeus, Deipnosophists, 7.53 - ca. 228 CE 

This doesn't have any right to be as funny as it is, and yet here I am, laughing.

[the-puffinry]

sicilian pigeon migration festival? The smell of butter as a sign of a goddess? Jupiter changed into a pigeon?? More sicilian (sacred) dove favoritism?? this is so much fun to read about.

"And at Eryx in Sicily, there is a certain time which the Sicilians call The Departure, at which time they say that the Goddess is departing into Africa: and at this time all the pigeons about the place disappear, as if they had accompanied the Goddess on her journey. And after nine days, when the festival called καταγώγια, that is to say The Return, is celebrated, after one pigeon has first arrived, flying across the sea like an avant-courier, and has flown into the temple, the rest follow speedily. And on this, all the inhabitants around, who are comfortably off, feast; and the rest clap their hands for joy. And at that time the whole place smells of butter, which they use as a sort of token of the return of the Goddess. But Autocrates, in his history of Achaia, says that Jupiter once changed his form into that of a pigeon, when he was in love with a maiden in Aegium, whose name was Phthia. But the Attic writers use the word also in the masculine gender, περιστερός. Alexis, in his People Running together, says—

For I am the white pigeon (περιστερὸς) of Venus; But as for Bacchus, he knows nothing more Than how to get well drunk; and nothing cares Whether 'tis new wine that he drinks or old.

[p. 623] But in his play of the Rhodian, or the Woman Caressing, he uses the word in the feminine gender; and says in that passage that the Sicilian pigeons are superior to all others—

Breeding within some pigeons from Sicily, The fairest shaped of all their species.

[...]

And Nicander, in the second book of his Georgics, mentions the Sicilian doves and pigeons, and says,—

And do you in your hall preserve a flock Of fruitful doves from Sicily or Dracontium, For it is said that neither kites nor hawks Incline to hurt those choice and sacred birds.

from The Deipnosophists by Athenaeus (late 2nd to early 3rd century CE).

[cynthiabertelsen]

Once Upon a Time, There were No Cookery Books

Celery Leaf (Photo credit: C. Bertelsen) Cookery books perch on nearly every possible level spot in my house, so much a part of my life that I cannot imagine not seeing them every time I walk to the front door or start cooking dinner in my modern kitchen. I own way more cookery books than a normal person probably does. And more than likely, you too no doubt struggle to find shelf space for…

[hebesdove]

[...] crocus, hyacinth, and blooming violet and the sweet petals of the peerles rose so fragrant, so divine.

Athenaeus describing the garments of The Graces, The Deipnosophists or Banquet of the Learned

[aboutanancientenquiry]

The Greeks and Their Wine

“ Abstract 

The fifth-century BC played a crucial role in the formation of Greek identity, during which the Greeks developed both a unified and a divided Hellenic consciousness. The Persian Wars (490-479 BC) encouraged the formation of a Pan-Hellenic identity while the Peloponnesian War (431-411 BC) between Athens and Sparta fractured the unity of Greek identity. During both wars, the Greeks used wine as a marker of their collective and individual identities. The Greeks identified the Persians as “barbarians” because they did not consume wine. The Peloponnesian War revealed divisions within Hellenic identity, as shown in the Athenian attitude toward Spartan drinking practices. Examining both Greek writings and material culture reveals that wine played an important part in Greek society. Herodotus’ Histories and Thucydides’ The History of the Peloponnesian War shed light on these two major fifth-century BC conflicts. Athenaeus’ Deipnosophists, from the second-century AD, possesses an assortment of cultural details about the Greeks and “barbarians.” Ancient Greek historians, such as Athenaeus, described the practices and  rules regarding wine consumption. The numerous discoveries of wine paraphernalia demonstrate the spread of wine and wine culture throughout the Greek world. Dionysus, the god wine in Greek mythology, reveals the cultural importance of wine and its relation to the East. Modern scholarship of the fifth-century BC has neglected to make an explicit connection between Greek attitudes toward wine and the formation of their multilayered identities.”  

 John Haberstroh The Greeks and their Wine: Hellenic Identities in the Fifth-Century BC (abstract)

The whole paper is available on https://www.academia.edu/1803087/The_Greeks_and_Their_Wine_Hellenic_Identities_in_the_Fifth_Century_BC

John Haberstroh, PhD, is Assistant Professor at the University of Nevada.

As I said in a recent post of mine, I find this paper and its subject very interesting. However, I believe that the claim that “the Greeks identified the Persians as “barbarians” because they did not consume wine’ is excessive. Moreover, the Greeks (or at least Herodotus’ readers -see Book I 133.3 of Histories) knew that the Persians consumed also wine, often abundantly.

Dionysus, the ancient Greek god of wine, and members of his thiasos on an Attic black-figure krater-psykter (525–500 BCE, Louvre Museum)

[allyouknowisalie]

As I was walking from the Peiraios beset By troubles and despair, philosophy came over me. And all the painters now seem to me to be ignorant About love, and, to put it simply, so is everyone else Who fashions images of him as a god. For he is neither female nor male, and again, He is not a god or mortal; nor is he foolish Or wise, but he is drawn together from everywhere And carries many shapes in one form. For he has a man’s boldness with a woman’s restraint; he has the senselessness of madness But the reason of a thinker; he has a beast’s ferocity, The toil of the unbreakable, and the avarice of a god. Indeed, by Athena and the gods, I do not understand What love is, but still it is the type of thing I have said only without this name. πορευομένῳ δ᾽ ἐκ Πειραιῶς ὑπὸ τῶν κακῶν καὶ τῆς ἀπορίας φιλοσοφεῖν ἐπῆλθέ μοι. καί μοι δοκοῦσιν ἀγνοεῖν οἱ ζωγράφοι τὸν Ἔρωτα, συντομώτατον δ᾽ εἰπεῖν, ὅσοι τοῦ δαίμονος τούτου ποιοῦσιν εἰκόνας. ἐστὶν γὰρ οὔτε θῆλυς οὔτ᾽ ἄρσην, πάλιν οὔτε θεὸς οὔτ᾽ ἄνθρωπος, οὔτ᾽ ἀβέλτερος οὔτ᾽ αὖθις ἔμφρων, ���λλὰ συνενηνεγμένος πανταχόθεν ἑνὶ τύπῳ πόλλ᾽ εἴδη φέρων. ἡ τόλμα μὲν γὰρ ἀνδρός, ἡ δειλία γυναικός, ἡ δ᾽ ἄνοια μανίας, ὁ δὲ λόγος φρονοῦντος, ἡ σφοδρότης δὲ θηρός, ὁ δὲ πόνος ἀδάμαντος, ἡ φιλοτιμία δὲ δαίμονος. καὶ ταῦτ᾽ ἐγώ, μὰ τὴν Ἀθηνᾶν καὶ θεούς, οὐκ οἶδ᾽ ὅ τι ἐστίν, ἀλλ᾽ ὅμως ἔχει γέ τι τοιοῦτον, ἐγγύς τ᾽ εἰμὶ τοὐνόματος.

Alexis (fr.386k from his Phaedrus; found at Athenaeus 13.13)

[gotstabbedbyapen]

This post popped up in the "More like this" corner on my blog so I'm gonna add this little excerpt about Spartan cuisine:

"And some say that a citizen of Sybaris, who was staying at Sparta, and who dined at their Phiditia, said: 'It is natural enough for the Lacedaemonians to be the bravest of men; for any man in his senses would rather die ten thousand times over, than live in such a miserable way as this.'" - Athenaeus, "The Deipnosophistae"

With a review like this on Spartan food, I can imagine Apollo having a bit of a culture shock (even as a god) when having lunch dates with Hyacinthus 🤣🤣🤣

do you have sources/any information about day to day life in sparta? as well as more specifically, the royaltys day to day life? i got this hyapollo fic idea and its been eating me alive so i must write it but i want it to be as close to accurate as i can get it and when i looked up spartan lifestyle i got a bunch of "THIS IS HOW YOU CAN BE A MODERN DAY SPARTAN DIET AND LIFESTYLE CHANGES" and youre really good at your researching. your fic notes are always so nice and detailed

omg anon i am SO SORRY with how late this is!! :(

I'm afraid I do not know much about Sparta (still looking into it myself!) but maybe my good moot @gotstabbedbyapen can help you there? That is if you're still working on that hyapollo fic (*EYES*)

[kebriones]

Alcibiades' ass getting mentioned in 2000+ year old texts is iconic.

[my-name-is-apollo]

Might be unpopular opinion but I love dark hair on Apollo 🖤 I know people envision him as blond but black or brown hair does it for me even if the myths say otherwise..

I have warmed up a lot to non-blonde Apollo lol so yeah, i agree that he dark hair also looks great on him! Even if it is a rare thing in the hymns/myths (but hymns that describe him as dark haired do exist!) the Roman paintings that have survived show Apollo with brown hair most of the time.

[catilinas]

why do classics courses in uni make you read like. ‘canonical’ classical texts for one thousand years and not even mention the wild shit in e.g. pausanias this is so fun why did i have to read the res gestae so many times

[jeannereames]

The second of two Tiktok posts wherein I discuss the ancient sources on Alexander the Great. In this one, I discuss the extant (still existing) sources, the biographies/histories and a few other places we find him such as Polyaenus, Athenaeus, Plutarch's Moralia essays.

[timetraveltasting]

ITRION (3rd c.)

I've had a stressful week of work and am in need of energy, so this weekend I decided to make a very simple Tasting History recipe that powered armies: Itrion, a thin and crispy sesame honey bar from Ancient Greece. While this recipe for itrion is gathered from the 3rd-century Deipnostophistae by Athenaeus Naucratites, the crispy snack was likely eaten centuries earlier, especially by hoplite citizen-soldiers. Most Ancient Greek armies were made up of hoplites. City-state armies, like Sparta's professional standing army, were rare. Each hoplite soldier was responsible for supplying their own equipment and food, which needed to be cheap, travel well, and be easy to prepare. Itrion fits this bill perfectly. The Ancient Greek itrion is a bar whose recipe has remained largely unchanged over a couple thousand years; they are known in Greece today as Pasteli (Παστέλι). There are big companies in Greece that mass-produce these bars, and you can get them in any shop or kiosk. Not bad staying-power for what is often called 'the world's first energy bar'! See Max’s video on how to make itrion here or see the ingredients and process at the end of this post, sourced from his website.

My experience making it:

Since I already had a packet of toasted sesame seeds at home from another recipe I had made, I actually cheated a little bit by using pre-toasted sesame seeds for this recipe. For honey, I used raw German linden tree honey. I decided to halve the recipe, because I didn't want to end up with too much, and I only had about half the sesame seeds called for.

I used a 9" x 9" pan, lined it with a baking sheet, then added my pre-toasted sesame seeds to a frying pan. While you would think this shouldn't be necessary due to them being toasted already, Max says it is actually important to add the sesame seeds to the honey while they are hot, so I thought it still important to do a bit of extra toasting (being careful not to burn them, of course). When I heated my honey in a saucepan, it didn't foam much, so I didn't have to skim any off the top, luckily. Because I don't have a kitchen thermometer, I eyeballed the amount of bubbles, being sure it looked similar to how Max's looked when his hit the correct temperature (quite bubbling). At this point, I added the hot, toasted sesame seeds, mixing them in for about 3-4 minutes on low heat. They combined really easily, and the proportions of honey and sesame looked correct and balanced. Because I halved the recipe, when I poured the sesame honey mixture into the pan, it didn't spread out to the edges but looked more like a blob shape. I let it cool on the counter, but since it's quite hot and summery in my apartment at the moment, I decided to put it in the fridge to allow it to crisp up just a little faster. When I took it out, I removed the paper, cut the itrion into squares/triangles (my blob shape did not divide so well into uniform shapes!), and arranged them on a plate for snacking. They did not break apart in a completely crispy way, like peanut brittle would, but they were kind of gooey in the centre with a nice crisp on the top and bottom.

My experience tasting it:

I took a small first bite: fairly crisp on the outside, but gooey and a bit hard to chew on the inside. My husband took a large first bite, and found it very hard to chew as a result. I decided to stick with small bites after that! The honey melted in my mouth, and was the main flavour I could taste at first. As I kept chewing, the sweet honey taste gave way to the crispy and toasty sesame seed flavour (which I absolutely love). Overall, the flavours are very balanced between sweet and savoury, and there is a good mix of textures. I could even taste the linden tree flavour, and I would say that whichever type of honey you use to make itrion will likely retain its unique taste once cooked. My husband and I both enjoyed the itrion, and will snack on the pieces through the week. However, I was very glad I halved the recipe and cut the itrion into small pieces, as I do think it's a flavour that you can become bored of easily if you eat too much of it. Still, I would definitely make this recipe again - it only requires two ingredients, it's a very quick and simple process to make, and it will last a week or so of snacking, in my opinion. While the flavour isn't particularly mind-blowing, itrion does make for a great, light snack while still scratching the sweet and savoury itches. And so easy to make! The Ancient Greeks were on to a winner with itrion; there is a good reason this recipe has survived for so long. If you end up making this dish, if you liked it, or if you changed anything from the original recipe, do let me know!

Itrion original recipe (3rd c.)

Sourced from Deipnostophistae by Athenaeus Naucratites, 3rd c. AD.

Then there is the itrion. This is a thin cake, made of sesame and honey, Anacreon mentions it like this: 'And I breakfasted on a bit of crisp itrion, breaking it off, and drank a jar of wine.'

Modern Recipe

Based on Deipnostophistae by Athenaeus Naucratites (3rd c.) and Max Miller’s version in his Tasting History video.

Ingredients:

1/2 lb (225 g) sesame seeds

1/2 lb (225g) pure honey

Method:

Line the bottom and sides of a pan (9" x 9" works) with parchment paper. You can use a larger pan if you want thinner itrion.

Place a dry pan over medium heat and add the sesame seeds. Cook until nicely toasted and aromatic, about 5 minutes, stirring constantly so the sesame doesn't burn. Take the pan off the heat but don’t let the sesame cool too much, you want it to still be quite hot when you add it to the honey.

Melt the honey in a saucepan over medium heat, stirring constantly. If any white foam rises up, skim it off. Continue to heat the honey until it hits 260°F (126°C), then immediately add the hot sesame seeds. Stir until combined.

Continue to cook over low heat for 3 to 4 minutes, stirring constantly.

Pour the mixture into the lined pan and spread evenly.

The itrion can be cut after a few minutes. If it cools completely, the cut edges will be nice and crisp. Turn the itrion out of the pan, cut it however you like, and serve it forth.

[maleficea]

"Insensible the palate of old age, More difficult than the soft lips of youth, To move, I put much mustard in their dish; With quickening sauces make their stupor keen, And lash the lazy blood that moves within." Anthippus in The Deipnosophists; or, Banquet of the Learned of Athenæus, by Athenaeus of Naucratis

[whencyclopedia]

In ancient Greece, dance had a significant presence in everyday life. The Greeks not only danced on many different occasions, but they also recognized several non-performative activities such as ball-playing or rhythmic physical exercise as dance. In fact, dancing to the ancient Greeks seemed like a natural response of the body, mind, and soul to music. They would dance spontaneously at weddings or drinking parties (symposia), or perform pre-arranged choreographies as exemplified by the chorus' dances in the ancient Greek theatre. Greek dances could be performed individually or in a group. They could tell a story, showcase martial and athletic skills, entertain guests, or shape processions and other key parts of religious rituals. Whilst dance is largely defined in ancient Greek literature as an element of the mousike (the umbrella term which covers all categories of the performing arts: making music, dancing, singing, and recitation), there is a wide range of evidence that suggests dancing was practiced as an independent skill. Dance-training (gymnopaidai) was a foundation subject in school, and pictures of boys and girls practicing dance under the supervision of male and female tutors appear in vase painting. Classical writers such as Plato, Lucian, and Athenaeus recommended dancing as an essential part of the development of good citizens, men and women, thanks to its constructive effects on the body and mind. As in many ancient cultures, dancing played a fundamental role in ancient Greek society for thousands of years.

[thoodleoo]

athenaeus really said enough about history. im going to talk about fish now