#Anti TVTropes

[plumsaffron]

Let’s blast Pink Guy - STFU on a cellphone’s max volume or connected speakers whenever a miracupologist refuses to listen to reason when the evidence is there. It’ll be a funny prank/lesson if they dare spread propaganda and misinformation. Let’s see them try that shit at a crowded con or anywhere in public, someone should do the honors of putting that song right in their eardrums. They’ll leave in a walk of shame lol.

Can’t take these miraclowns seriously anymore since mid-2022 lmfao. Thank goodness most online users are smarter than them these days.

The miracucircus might as well make the MHA group look tame despite the latter having more of a cringe side. MHA fandom never drove someone to off themselves over hated/controversial characters, they’d prefer to whine a lot and not actually threaten others.

TVTropes has really became a place for a collection of “well written” character bashing fics of many fictional media. Blast that song at them too, the staff are more concerned about “overall good behavior” and “extra attention given to some pages”.

Double standards from what I’ve seen so far by these saltfic writers:

MLcunts when Marinette is sad/hurt: “You poor girl! You deserve a break from all your hard work!”

MLcunts when Adrien is sad/hurt: “Suck it up wuss! Weren’t you acting tough in your superhero persona!? You don’t even have a backbone!”

MLbitches when a character of another franchise has a tragic backstory regardless of race/age/sexuality: “Oh no, that poor baby deserves to be protected!”

MLbitches when Adrien has a tragic backstory: “Uh what tragedy? You’re just a white rich boy with minimal to no issues! Don’t compare yours to others that’ve actually suffered more! You pathetic attention seeker!”

Miracuidiots when another franchise’s male character makes a minor or even major error: “Hey it’s ok, those people don’t understand the hard choice(s) you had to make. Don’t push yourself too hard.”

Miracuidiots when Adrien makes a minor or major error: “WTF!? You ruined everything! You deserve to have your miraculous taken away forever!”

Miracutwats when a male character is exhibiting negative traits: “He just wants to be loved! He didn’t mean that! He didn’t know any better!”

Miracutwats when Adrien exhibits his negative traits: “(Sexual) Harasser! Spoiled brat! Spineless! Weakling!”

Miracuhoes when a character has a minor injury even if their regeneration is that great: “Are you ok!? Do you need anything to eat!? Where does it hurt!?”

Miracuhoes even when Adrien is that injured: “Eh whatever, Ladybug will cure you after she’s done fighting the Akuma. Stop being a lil crybaby bitch.”

hmmhmmhmmhmmhmmhmmhmm

Ratio them Miracuhoes, those true wastes of functioning organs.

[baltears]

stewing in my eternally burning hatred of tv tropes once again<3

[tarisilmarwen]

Right, while I'm on the subject, fandom please learn the difference between an anti-hero, an anti-villain, and a sympathetic villain.

Anti-hero: A protagonist who lacks traditional heroic qualities and nobility, but ultimately works towards good or better ends within the world of their narrative. Can be pretty reprehensible as an individual depending on the cynicism of the story and world they inhabit (i.e. The Punisher, The Bride from Kill Bill, Batman in certain incarnations), but often develops more into a hero classic in more idealistic works (see: Han Solo, Wolverine, also Batman again depending on writer/incarnation).

Anti-villain: An antagonist who, while nominally opposing the goals of the protagonist, has a core of nobility and traditional heroic qualities, or understandable sympathetic motivations. Is a "bad actions, good motives" character but approaches the issue from the opposite end of the spectrum as an anti-hero. Again depending on the cynicism/idealism of the work and the character's actions may complete a Heel Face Turn and ultimately become more like a protagonist or hero classic (Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender) or make a slide into full-on villany (Thrawn, several incarnations of Magneto). Many Well-Intentioned Extremists fall under this umbrella, along with a lot of Lawful Evil characters, but whether the label applies to them or not depends on how heinous the actions they take within the story are. Generally there is an in-narrative "line" these characters cannot cross before their evil actions outweigh their noble or sympathetic motives.

Sympathetic villain: A villain who has sad, tragic, affable, understandable or sympathetic qualities which makes them pitiable and/or likeable. While similar to an anti-villain, and they may start out as one, the major difference is that this character has already chosen, or repeatedly chooses, to cross the aforementioned narrative "line" within the story. They are a villain who "has a sad", basically. (Examples include Darth Vader, Mr. Freeze, and Megamind--who as a bonus is operating as a Villain Protagonist.)

There is obviously some gray area and as I've mentioned some characters slide up and down the whole range and gamut depending on how they're written but I promise they are in fact separate categories.

[iamdeltas]

It has been years and yet it still tickles me that Glimmer from SPOP counts as an Unscrupulous Hero. I mean I agree, she definitely does count as one, but it's just funny considering the usual characters that get to be this trope.

For minor context, Unscrupulous Heroes are on the Edgier(TM) side of the Anti-Hero scale. It's not the Absolute Edgiest(TM) end of the scale (that honor goes to Nominal Heroes, which... kinda self-explanatory IMO) but it's only one notch less Edgy(TM) than that.

The typical go-to example of an Unscrupulous Hero is your "ends justify the (very violent and morally dubious) means" types of guys, like the Punisher. The Punisher imo is kind of the best example of this, though some depictions can make him swerve into Nominal Hero territory. Huntress and Jason Todd are pretty good examples too, though I don't read a lot of DC so I could be off-base there.

So the concept of the examples of Unscrupulous Heroes being angsty, violent vigilantes in grimdark comic books, cynical characters who do What Has To Be Done in gritty crime dramas, troubled hardboiled detectives in the film noir genre... and a pastel pink glittery princess from a reboot of a 80s toyetic cartoon? It's fucking incredible.

[kahran042]

TV Tropes Rant Chireiden ~ Subterranean Animism

Or maybe Lily really shouldn't have hung out with the bullies and Jerk Jocks in Gryffindork.

[short-wooloo]

The book isn't out for another few months, but Mace Windu: Glass Abyss already has a tvtropes page, let's see what-

"Antagonist in Mourning: A variation. Mace was never Qui-Gon's biggest fan or advocate, but even he's impacted by the maverick's death and the loss of his unique perspective to the Order."

Fuck you tvtropes

"Antagonist" is now added to the "words I'm taking away until people learn what they mean"

ITS NOT THAT FUCKING HARD TO LOOK UP A DEFINITION Y'KNOW!

WORDS. HAVE. MEANING!

When in the flying FUCK was Mace ever an "antagonist" to Qui-Gon?

Or is "antagonist" just what we call anyone who dares to not go along with everything mister "uwu perfect one true Jedi" does?

We actually have very little on what Mace thought of Qui-Gon, and what we have doesn't amount to anything more than polite disagreement

But I shouldn't be surprised that tvtropes did this, considering what has happened before with their Mace-related stuff

[tenmyoujump]

“it’s pointed out that the tragedy of [2-3] is that nobody was really a bad person” idk ben and trilo count in my eyes, for starters

[midgardianqueenreturns]

Wow TV Tropes is sounding kinda defensive over Netflix ATLA to the point of insulting the animated series

[lily-orchard-archives]

2016-05-15

[otnesse]

Honestly, Misty got redeemed overall with Aim to Be a Pokemon Master, and I'm glad about it. That said, like with the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for her and to a degree, Brock, I see a vocal minority of her haters have taken TV Tropes and basically pushed this shade on her:

"Back in the 90s and the 2000s, Misty was one of the most popular characters in the franchise for being a Fiery Redhead Action Girl and hilarious Deadpan Snarker who acted as the perfect foil to Ash Ketchum while also being a bit of a mentor to him, with legions of fans shipping the two of them together. Many were devastated and outraged over her getting Put on a Bus at the end of Johto, and you could see people demanding her return to the series as a main character as late as 2009, long after her replacement May had been retired and while May's own replacement Dawn was getting ready to leave as well. However, starting in the early 2010s those same fans would look back on Misty’s tenure and scrutinize it for a multitude of reasons. Unlike later female characters, she lacked any kind of Character Development beyond becoming less violent after getting Togepi (which some don't count as actual development, considering the show as a whole became less violent around this time), with said violent outbursts now being seen as more cruel than funny. These fans also point out that for all of Misty's bravado, she rarely battled against trainers aside from Team Rocket, which made her credentials seem like at best an Informed Attribute, and at worst made her many critiques of Ash seem hypocritical. The introduction of the infamously polarizing anime version of Iris was also a contributing factor; Iris was widely suspected to be an attempt at recapturing Misty's success, which caused many viewers to go back and re-evaluate Misty in a more critical light, with some pointing out that quite a few of Iris' most criticized qualities had earlier been displayed by Misty. While Misty still retains fans to this day, she's become far more divisive, with many fans arguing her initial popularity came mainly or even solely from being Ash's first female companion."

Oh, trust me, the scruitinization was going on during AG as well, and that was just showing how some people lacked loyalty to her to begin with. Scott85 was among the worst.

As far as the rest, seriously? Misty if anything was probably one of the better-developed members of the cast (if there was anything preventing her from being fully developed, it's that Masamitsu Hidaka forced her to be kicked off for "not being girl enough"). She actually had to develop from someone who had to present a tough exterior partly due to bullying from her elder sisters to being somewhat open about having a soft side by the end of Johto, while STILL keeping her temper intact. I'll admit she probably didn't get much battles in hindsight, but at least she still managed to GET battles in, and by Johto she was getting a good turnaround by giving SOME focus on her goal. And as far as the outbursts, seriously? Most of her outbursts in Kanto were outright TAME compared to some of her peers in other anime (for example, Bulma outright SHOT Goku a few times, and don't get me started on Naru Narusegawa in Love Hina, who treated Keitaru FAR worse. Heck, even IN-SERIES, Jessie treated her companions FAR worse than Misty EVER did). And as far as Iris, while I'll admit I don't have much to go by regarding Best Wishes due to being on boycott at the time (and I would have watched it on Pokemon TV alongside the other sagas barring OS, even that, if they didn't stupidly do "keep circulating the tapes" for everything barring the immediate beginning and ending of the series prior to shutdown), what little I heard about Iris if anything had me view her as a WORTHY successor to Misty, meaning I didn't even hate her at all. Even her infamous "Just a kid" catchphrase (what caused her to get a hatedom) was if anything more the fault of the writers making Ash regress in development than an ACTUAL issue with Iris herself. At most, I was neutral, even came close to liking her (far more than May and Dawn, those two I downright hated, and still DO hate ultimately, and believe it or not, my hatred of them had very little to do with Misty other than maybe characterizations). I fail to see how Dawn really developed other than MAYBE going from point A to point B, and May's development if anything was a complete mess (and considering she threw a tantrum after her loss to Solidad and even basically blamed Ash for the loss, I can hardly say she even developed from her insecure self at the beginning at all), with Lillie doing May's character development a LOT better (and if anything May was moreorless a standard Shoujo Protagonist). The only things they had over Misty was an (over)focus on their Coordinator goals (and let's be honest, had Misty actually been allowed to go to Hoenn instead of kicked off, her Water Pokemon Master goal most likely would have gotten a LOT more focus and thus actually ALLOWED her to be better developed goal-wise). Oh, and Misty was NEVER a hypocrite regarding her criticisms of Ash. At least Misty actually WON her battles when she had them, while Ash for half of Kanto literally got his badges via dubious methods that didn't even entail battling (especially when one remembers that the Pokemon League in the anime was a fighting tournament, meaning Ash needs to actually BEAT the Gym Leaders just to genuinely qualify), and even regarding the Cascade Badge, her SISTERS were the ones who awarded the badge to Ash that time, NOT Misty. She if anything protested that decision. Actually, the only one of the cast who actually WAS a hypocrite was Brock, since he derided Ash for so-called "pity badges" despite his WILLINGLY giving such earlier.

And at least for me, Misty's popularity had nothing to do with when she debuted. It was overall her actual character (and most of those "fans" seem to ignore the actual positive qualities she had on the show, including encouraging Ash [yes, she DID in fact do that, and also did a LOT to actually TRY to help him. In fact, there were more than a few times where if it weren't for her, Ash and co. would have been dead or otherwise unable to continue], also genuinely helping various COTDs like Joe when he was being bullied by Giselle. I can assure you if Misty debuted after May or Dawn or even Serena, I definitely would have genuinely liked her regardless.

The good news is, this is definitely a case of vocal minority, since the Movie 20 poll for various characters made it pretty clear that Misty was liked by fans of all ages enough to qualify in the Top 3 (only Brock and Serena beat her out).

[eddathegreat]

Duality of Taylor

There are a lot of characters in fiction with multiple contrasting sides to them, so Taylor isn't unique in that respect. Just about every teen character in genre fiction since forever has had a bit of a dichotomy between 'badass hero/anti-hero' and 'fucking idiot who can't talk the person they have a crush on.'

So it makes it really hard to explain to people who haven't read Worm why Taylor is so great. 'Badass but also awkward teen' is not really new. But then it occurred to me that, most of the time, the two elements are kind of played against each other for comedy, the juxtaposition of a big, serious situations and the awkward teenager being played against each other.

In Worm, those two things aren't played against each other. Taylor's actions and thoughts as Skitter are fundamentally linked to her experiences as a teenager, dealing with bullies and a negligent system. Her going on a crime spree is her teenage rebellion, played fully seriously, and with a price paid in blood.

So I guess it comes back to quoting the tvtropes page: "the story shifts away from the hellish landscape that is contemporary high school towards the more uplifting setting of a bombed out city at the mercy of a roving band of psychopaths."

[plumsaffron]

Roasting the miracusalters as much as I can! Pt. 4!

I hope y’all got your rabies shots because I can see your frothing saliva from a distance!

Brainrot? You and your content are the prime example of that on the poor new internet users. Not just the low quality content farms on YouTube or anywhere else.

Y’all feel that triggered by minor inconveniences such as school issues? I STG I didn’t hear shit like that on canonically difficult battles!

Could y’all tag properly? Or separate them from other things? There’s a thing called specific tagging for your so-called pathetic plots not just tags referring to the series as a whole!

Wait… do some y’all secretly have a vendetta against black and white people? That’s why Alya and Adrien usually get the short end of the stick in your content?? Even though Marinette is half Caucasian and half Asian??? Not trying to accuse anyone but I’m seeing a pattern with that kind of psychological projection with the hurtful racial stereotyping.

Hold up, are some of y’all rabid SJWs trying to create hetero erasures? Because I’ve been seeing less straight characters in fanworks, unless they’re being used for your pathetic bashing too. And why the fuck did you make some characters homophobic? That’s wrong and inappropriate! The show actually has some canonical LGBT characters and couples!

Speaking of TVTropes, the character bashers’ content are the equivalent to Stinkmeaner’s crew from the Boondocks (hating everyone) but way less funny even with good consistent writing. Also actually unreasonable, pathetic and delusional as fuck even when canon made significant improvements.

Double standards Double standards…:

Miracucunts when a character has hurt feelings: “*le gasp* Who hurt you?! Lemme fight them!”

Miracucunts when Adrien has hurt feelings: “Oh come on! Suck it up! You weren’t acting like this before!”

Miracutards when any non-ML character tries to be good: “Redemption Arc let’s gooooo!! I know you’ve killed someone/many people but you were forced to do it! Blame it on that fucker for turning you into a criminal!”

Miracutards when any of the most salted/hated characters try to be good: “No no, you don’t deserve to be redeemed for going behind your friends’ backs/turning against them!”

Miracubozos when a literal murderer does something: “Aww! Hope that ‘victim’ was a really bad guy!”

Miracubozos when one of their canon characters does something: “WTF?! Immature fool! Bitch ass! Bad writing!”

Miracutwits when a character is written as a Yandere even if they go too far: “But they’re also hot! They truly love their sempai more than those admirers!”

Miracutwits when their canon character is written as a Yandere who didn’t do too much: “FBI OPEN UP! They deserved to be locked up or executed ASAP! They’re sick in the head!”

Miracusalters are crabs in a bucket.

Miracrabs do love making minor inconveniences their real struggles in life. They the type to be able to defeat the final boss countlessly but they would collapse facing a common enemy in practice mode that rarely appears in the game. I’m almost curious how they survive in real life.

Maririding is a big epidemic for the miracustankdom. Seems a lot only accept when Adrien and Alya subjugate themselves completely to the supreme order or they Cat Walker into the collective populous’ or hotshots' interests. They are bored or just want to find or make up excuses to fume upon the two and hold onto it, just because they didn’t function as they wanted them to.

They’re kind of funny forsaking the two, all because they want them to do only what they think they should only in this specific way into to. If Adrien or Alya were to react different from what some watchers collectively seen or the duo had another different perspectives from them, miracumsocks still would collapse. They talk about how they want something different but they really just want same old apples permanently instead of pears and possible other fruits. They don’t want fruits at all, only this one, this way, this shape and form.

Seems as long as they do not align to their status quo of how the believe things should go, they still would be rather ugly to the two still. Surely have a strange lust for attacking characters they see as weaker or easy targets. Probably because they feel like it or because they are who they are or what they are. Just because it’s them. It’s likely they would find another character to scapegoat if either didn’t exist. It’s a twisted form of worshipping the two.

Speaking of projecting, such peeps are really lame. They have seen episodes in their face why projecting too much is bad and what it leads to. Instead, such scuds have related heavily to the projecting will or absorbed into their being and spread it all around. Appears they use it as a mask of righteousness or somethings. Believing they accomplished something. Think they found a solution but they would still end up repeating the cycle. Just as they’ve been doing for years to almost a decade.

Sucks they don’t understand what Adrien’s been through (and still unfortunately is going through). Strange scales they use against him or induce invalid equalization to bring him down.

They sure like being choosey when to be offended and when to completely brush it off as rubbish or making out to be it’s this one’s fault when it clearly shows it’s not. Disturbing points of distortion of what they’ve seen and known, inorder to fit how they wished it did (and unfortunately many followed that way as truth).

A lot of times people saying bad writing seems more like an escape term used just because they fumed over things not going the collective way and others agree upon like mindless mobs. They also use it when defending a character clearly in the wrong or be like ah I blame the writers but if it was another character, it open fire (and strangely may include if they are in the right) It’s all they can hold onto. Kind of like flaw finders that want to suddenly hate found flaw. Maybe they are badly written & wish to continue that for themselves.

But yeah Double Standards This Miracuscabhorrent Fandom Has.

[pro-sipper]

"Dead Dove: Do Not Eat"

About the tag, the origin, and why I think no one on either side of the fandom divide knows how to use it

First of all, I'm crosstagging because I think it's a general issue, not just something for pro or anti shippers. I see the tag get misused on both sides and I just wanted to throw my two cents in

So, where did the term originate? Like all culturally significant things online, it started as a meme. More specifically, a meme from the television show Arrested Development. Character A has put a dead dove into a brown paper bag to store in the family's fridge. On the bag, he has taped a sign that reads, in big bold letters, "DEAD DOVE. Do Not Eat!"

Character B comes across the bag, reads the warning, and opens it anyway. When he's met with, you guessed it, a dead dove, he proclaims "I don't know what I expected".

This is an example of (and has since basically become the spiritual successor to) the "Exactly What It Says On The Tin" trope.

If you want to check out the full history and countless examples of the trope, please check out the page on tvtropes. But for a slightly shorter history - it originated in a British commercial for Ronseal's Quick Drying Woodstain, which the tin claimed "dried quickly". And in the commercial they told you "It does exactly what it says on the tin!" So, the tin says what the product does, then the product does it. You get the idea.

In fandom spaces, the trope just means that the title of Thing (be it movie, show, fanfic, etc) tells you exactly what happens IN Thing. If a show is called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer", you already know it's about a girl named Buffy who slays vampires. If the movie is called "Cocaine Bear", you can bet a bear will get into some cocaine at some point. If there's a fanfic called "Fluttershy Has Tea With Jesus"... you get the idea.

While both tags started out with the same intentions and meaning, I don't think it's any wonder that "dead dove do not eat" has been so easy to misinterpret. For one, "exactly what it says on the tin" sounds more straightforward. You don't have to understand the specific reference to infer it means to check the label (in this case, tags) before purchasing (opening) the product (fanfic)

But dead dove is harder to understand if you don't know the reference. And at a glance, it sounds much darker. Doves have symbolism in multiple religions, and are seen as a symbol of peace. A dead dove evokes images of gore, violence, general unpleasantness. It must only apply to something sinister, right?

The thing about "exactly what it says on the tin" is that the tin needs to say something. You can't point at a blank label and say "here's what you can expect". People would be much less likely to engage with your product if that were the case

In the same vein, slapping "dead dove do not eat" on a fic with no other tags can lead to confusion. In this tag's case, it's a warning. But what are you warning about if you don't also put it in the tags? It leaves people's minds to conjure up only grim and upsetting images of what might be in your fic. Especially when, as it's also common to do, the tag gets shortened to simply "dead dove".

And while, yes, the tag is most likely to get slapped onto fics with dark or upsetting subject matter, that means something different for everyone who comes across it.

Most people seem to think it only applies to inappropriate relationships (age gap, incest, etc). But I've seen it applied to a variety of things, from potentially triggering material (like suicide) to things that simply may not be everyone's cup of tea (like excessive gross-out toilet humor).

In the end, "dead dove do not eat" is a tag that, in my opinion, should not be used as a descriptor as to what type of content your story contains. But rather, a gentle warning to say "hey, I'm specifically telling you what you're about to encounter, so whatever happens next is up to you".

After all, if you read the warning and still open the bag to find something you don't like...

I don't know what you were expecting.

[foone]

weird thought: I think if I was a teenager now (or anytime in the last decade or so) I think I would have written (and read!) a lot more fanfic than I did in reality, where I was a teenager in the 90s.

See, I've never been hugely into fanfic. Never had anything against it exactly, but it just wasn't something I was into. But I think that has to do with an interesting combination of how my brain works and what time I was first really getting into being a fan.

I've got a "librarian" brain (I'm literally typing this from within a library, WHERE I WORK). It wants to know things like "what are all the works in this series/by this creator?" and "are they all accessible?" and "what info is available about how it was made?"

I'm the kind of person who will watch a show then go look it up on wikipedia to see how many seasons it has, who made it, if they're still making it, check tvtropes for any more info, etc. Or I hear a song I like by a band I've never heard of, so I go listen to their entire discography while researching them. I just focus on things I'm into that way, you know? I don't half-ass my interest. (this is probably related to my autism, of course)

So what does this have to do with fanfic? like, do I go read some fanfics as part of this process? No, and I think the reason for it is when I specifically first got into fandom, as a teen.

See, this sort of fandom-librarian was harder to do in 1997, you know? You couldn't just pull up the wikipedia for that new show and see how many episodes it had. You also couldn't just listen to the whole discography of that band! Forget Spotify or Google Music, even Napster didn't exist yet.

So my interest in fandom focused a lot more on very basic questions: How many episodes/albums/books/whatever are there? Where can I see/hear them all? Like, I remember getting excited because I found some fan magazine that had a list of all the Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes. Just a list! Not even descriptions or anything. I finally could take that list and see how many I'd seen, so I'd know when I saw them all in late-night reruns.

So I'm focusing on these very basic parts of being a fandom-librarian and I stumble across some fanfic. I'm like "oh, is this a transcript of an episode I haven't seen yet?" and I realize it's not, it's a story written by a fan, and I get a knee-jerk reaction of "that's not helpful to my quest to know and find all the episodes". It's like I am on a quest for the holy grail and I found a fake cup. It's not helpful to me, and at worst it's a distraction from my goal.

And the thing is, I think the fact I had that reaction is entirely due to the time and situation in which I first encountered fanfic. It was in that environment of "I can't even find a list of the episodes, let alone a way to watch them all!" and that anxiety that colored my response to finding fanfic.

I think if I instead was first introduced to fanfic NOW, where those fandom-librarian drives aren't so difficult to fulfill, I'd be way more positive about fanfic. If I could get a list of episodes with a quick google search, and watch them easily on netflix/prime/whatever, I'd be less "THIS DOESN'T HELP! I AM STRUGGLING WITH THE BASICS HERE!" and more "yay, more content for the fandom I'm obsessed with!"

Like I said, I'm not anti-fanfic, I never have been, I just never got into it. From the beginning I had this reaction that was "this is not useful" and I never developed any real interest in it. Which is a shame, honestly. Fanfic is great. It just never became one of my interests, and while I've written it and read it from time to time, I imagine I'd be way more into it if I didn't have the weird reaction to it due to the worries of the time in which I first encountered it.

I don't know how many other people have brains that work anything like mine, but if they exist, I'm glad they're now growing up in a world where they won't have these problems. They can get into fanfic without this weird baggage caused by a lack of information.

[madcapberry]

One sec I need to talk about Shiva.

Lady Shiva was introduced in Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter in the 70s. She was a traveling martial artist hellbent on getting revenge for her sister, who she believed had been killed by Richard Dragon. She lured Dragon into a trap, revealed herself as Carolyn's sister, and tried to fight him to the death. Once she realized that Dragon had nothing to do with it, that Cravat and The Swiss (unimportant villain characters, they killed Carolyn) had been the ones to kill her sister, she helped Dragon defeat the villain (by giving him her shiny belt so he could redirect the beam of a deadly laser that was being pointed at them while they were fighting, don’t even ask) and Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva became allies, friends even. Dragon convinced her it would be a waste to kill Cravat and told her that he had killed the Swiss himself. She accepted this. They shook hands. This all took place over the course of one issue of Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter. It took ONE issue for Shiva to go from antagonist to ally. She then tagged along with Richard because she liked the adventures he got up to, the danger, the challenge, and the thrill of it. Richard even called her later on when he needed help on a different adventure. What I’m saying is she didn’t start out as evil.

Okay, so what do we know about Shiva so far? She’s a thrill-seeking peripatetic martial artist of great capacity and skill. She cared about her sister. She’s willing to kill. She’s an adventurer and a valuable ally. Great. Moving on.

The Question 1987 features THE Lady Shiva. A character capable of both ruthlessness and mercy, cruelty and tenderness. A curious, thrill-seeking, teasing character. She was vicious and nonpartisan and she was working as a mercenary for hire. But she was an ally, even when she was beating the shit out of Vic. She loved the O Sensei. You can tell she even cared about Vic in her way. I’m not saying she had a heart of gold, or that there weren’t tropes she fell into. She wasn’t and there were. But she was a fairly well-rounded, morally gray character that played a key role wherever she showed up. She was closer to a non-traditional anti-hero than anything else. Idfk, just go read The Question.

I read a tvtropes article describing Lady Shiva as “an archetypical Dragon Lady, complete with sinister motivations and exotic sex appeal,” which… she isn’t. She subverted this trope in several ways actually. She never had “sinister motivations” until Chuck Dixon got his grubby little hands on her. Her motivations were pretty neutral. She had her own set of principles, she was very morally gray. She wanted to travel and fight worthy opponents on her adventures for the thrill of it. She seemed to operate mostly on personal whims, and on the basis of building worthy rivals, out of love for the art of combat. And she didn’t use her sex appeal for shit (until the Richard Dragon reboot comic kms), she didn’t tolerate sexual advances or objectification. She just WAS NOT a conniving temptress, I don't understand where this misperception came from (but I do blame Dixon, I’ll get to that in a sec).

This same article states that she began as the arch-nemesis of Richard Dragon? Unless you’re accepting the version of the two of them from the very short lived Richard Dragon 2004 series as their canonical relationship then NO she didn’t. But I digress.

There was a marked change in the way Lady Shiva was written by the time Robin (1991) came out, this is where her character starts to lean towards the Dragon Lady trope imo. She also weirdly, and maybe arguably, leans more into traditional femininity while at the same time being written as more wild and uncontrollable. Chuck Dixon seemed to fundamentally misunderstand Lady Shiva as a character. He turned her (sometimes ironic) disdain for brutes who wouldn’t last a second in a fight with her into stereotypical womanly haughtiness. He turned her capacity for ruthlessness into bloodlust. And he made her into a conniving, somewhat deranged, villainous woman, tempting our young hero towards evil (oh my!). Again, I’m not saying she ever had a heart of gold, but Dixon changed core character traits (namely her respect for other people's personal code) to turn her into a villain.

“Kill him, little bird. Kill him and become a predator…Aren’t you my weapon? My instrument of death? Say you are mine.” Like?? She would not fucking say that, respectfully.

That isn’t even to mention Richard Dragon (2004) where Dixon turned Shiva’s relationship with Dragon into a resentful, sexually charged dick-measuring contest.

Even so, I don’t entirely hate Shiva as a villain, especially in Batgirl (2000). Pucketts Shiva is a bit less egregious imo. So she’s a passively suicidal evil mentor-figure who wants Cass to be a killer like her. Whatever, I can get on board with that I guess. I can enjoy it because I love Cass and this is a great comic run. But the retcon that–Listen, THE RETCON THAT IS SHIVA’S SISTER BEING KILLED BY DAVID CAIN, SHIVA DESCRIBING THIS AS FREEING, SAYING SHE’S GRATEFUL, THEN AGREEING TO GET PREGNANT WITH HIS CHILD IN RETURN?? This boils my blood. Shiva, who was introduced as somebody who cared about getting revenge for her dead sister. Shiva, for whom freedom and autonomy were core character traits. That Shiva?? That Shiva is relieved her sister is dead and is willing to carry her sister's killer's child to term?? What the fuck?

I hate it. I don’t understand it. Why would you take a complex character who makes it difficult to tell who she really cares about, and flatten them into somebody incapable of love?

Okay I’m done, this is getting too long and I don’t even want to get started on New 52 era Shiva. I don’t have a conclusion, I’m just annoyed. Thanks for reading. The Question (1987) is NOT a perfect comic but if you’re interested in Shiva please please please check it out, it’s very moody and philosophical, noir-esque. Also Chuck Dixon suck my dick.

[kahran042]

From the TV Tropes 10 Location Game, with the category "Locations where a major tragedy occurred." Personally, I wouldn't consider the deaths of Jimmy the Scumbag and his wife a major tragedy… >:D