#Anti TVTropes

[plumsaffron]

The ML Crossover Methfics seriously are a whole different breed of insanity. Lmfao gotta love that insult of yours.

For people who claim to be Marinette stans they sure wrote a tonne of nonsensical fics making her out to be an abuse victim. A “poor me” or “woe is me” story.

I don’t really like Lila but I honestly hate the ML salt community even more. Especially what happened to that poor Lila fan… I mean she’s just a fictional character, they didn’t have to be that explosive about her. Miracucunts really do ruin everything they touch… and unable to see themselves for what they’ve done on the online spaces. Absolutely disgusting that they’d hate on an emotionally abused victim using the excuse that he wasn’t physically abused and that he’s just a spoiled rich white boy.

Yea, the DP phandom is usually chill even after I stopped following their users and tags to this day. For a mediocre show, they surprisingly came out with a civilized community. Even with the Sam Manson critique to hatred, I don’t see these people harassing anyone who likes her. It’s the Stans that sometimes do it despite the evidence showing that Sam is better off with someone else similar to her. Even with several crossover fics, they’re still quite bearable and civilized. Because some people actually did their fucking research. Or even if they didn’t do much in-depth research, their “OOC” fics are sometimes more “in character” than the ML saltfics.

Though I totally understand why some people are anti-crossover fanfic thanks to the miracubitches and other fandom twats ruining things with extreme character hate and assassinations.

This is my assumption but I think the TVTropes staff and their fans are lowkey control freaks not just oversensitive idiots. Maybe that’s why my scathing review was a “little too cruel” for their liking on the rated E franchise. Maybe only long time active users on their side are allowed to edit and add content. Yet mature dark canon stuff is allowed to stay on their site while opposing actual harmless criticism, opinions and reviews are silenced. Or users being suspended… I clicked on anti TVTropes here and saw a decade old post saying that the site doesn’t allow people to have different opinions. And I thought to myself, “Damn, I shouldn’t have signed up back then, should’ve listened to other people’s experiences on that wasted potential site.”

AO3 is literally the few places where you can get away with a controversial but still harmless opinion in your profile and fic notes/summary. And the chances of being dogpiled are very low but never zero if your work is inspired by a “controversial” person who did say something many years ago and/or didn’t handle a touchy subject matter that well in their works. But now ppl are bringing it up even though that “controversial” person isn’t really bad just had different views back then due to their upbringing or smth. Or the fic just seen as very disturbing despite the warning labels.

heh heh thanks.

Yeah lotta Marinette Dupain Cheng stans making or drinking them fics are oxymorons.

I don’t mind you not liking Lila but yeah the Miraculous Ladysalt community is deplorable (and a better thing to hate), along with their death driving charade. Still, despite that demise of that fan of hers, it just wasn’t enough to make them rethink how far they've gone.

Plaguedom’s plaguing dementality flourishes and there’s pretty much nothing that can be done to stop it. So many unfortunately may blindy eat their tumors, while next to none are there to warn them to not consume the plaque.

Ah these miracushits don’t know that his life sucks. Heck even in Miraculous Rise Of The Sphinx game, Max Kante told him exactly how little time he has during the day commonly. These miraculous roaches love jigsawing what happens to fit things into their own unfittable puzzle they believe fits now. They don’t know that that’s Gabriel’s money? Any decision he makes is if his father allows it or if it follows his father’s interests. Otherwise it’s gonna be a no or his father will find a way to make Adrien feel bad about it. They don’t know that he determines and pretty much controls his future or fate (yeah yeah currently it’s Nathalie, his other fugly controller now, but whatever).

How do these fools jump into the conclusion of reducing him to he’s spoiled rich white boy? Perhaps I should say, why do they do this to him and why are they like this to Adrien? Dude ain’t even someone to be truly or really triggered upon. Adrien, despite his sucky, and still currently sucky life, he’s not spoiled. And even if he was spoiled, why is that treated as an awful thing? Heck I’m still pretty spoiled. Is this really the best they can come up with? This the best Miracucks can do to someone that’s pretty much good to others and not a problem causers or not a person seeking to be in a realm of ramifications of future conflicts? Like hello, he is made to do a lot of crap he doesn’t like, and to be next to flawless. He doesn’t like being trapped in the mansion, he likes hanging out with his friends. Sigh miracuscabs always gotta find a way to reduce and arrange anything for putdown purposes to leech over. Man… I just searched him earlier on here and one of the results on the feed was a salt prompt for Adrien blog. *Sighs*

MMM research, ML Salt fics usually never never never never never

Yep and Miracubitches and them other fandung beetles like ruination while also not just harboring legendary levels of character loathing and assassinating, these buttwipes mastered the art of sniping their own character without even knowing.

Yeah it’s possible and unfortunate of them TVTropes Staff Members and their purposeful pathetic pickiness. Sometimes searching "anti something," can show something unordinary or a different perspective compared to the masses (or casuals that might be lucky). Maybe showing that you aren’t completely alone with such experiences or feelings of stuff. You live and learn.

Well at least A03 is safe sort of for now. But that is disgusting when people use someone’s past takes and rally up some virus to attack one in the present because they can’t handle it or maybe the current time in society sees this thing in the past as unacceptable. Or they just want to. It’s just sigh. Finding worth to cause problems on what was never worth it to begin with because ignoring is inconceivable.

Like ugh… Imagine someone calls a person a scrub 5 years ago in a story or whatever. Then someone 5 years later took offense and felt personally attacked cause of that word cause they see it as an offense to their self or their gender or whatever group of collective gender or whatever. And so the triggered one condemns this person that said scrub from the past and ganders a cult of clowns using the past against the present. Context don’t matter, the triggered ones feel victimized while ironically going out their way to victimize the one of the present. All cause they were offended so badly over a minor inconvenience. Bonus, these scabies treat who they attack as if that was always who they are or were or will be.

[baltears]

stewing in my eternally burning hatred of tv tropes once again<3

[tarisilmarwen]

Right, while I'm on the subject, fandom please learn the difference between an anti-hero, an anti-villain, and a sympathetic villain.

Anti-hero: A protagonist who lacks traditional heroic qualities and nobility, but ultimately works towards good or better ends within the world of their narrative. Can be pretty reprehensible as an individual depending on the cynicism of the story and world they inhabit (i.e. The Punisher, The Bride from Kill Bill, Batman in certain incarnations), but often develops more into a hero classic in more idealistic works (see: Han Solo, Wolverine, also Batman again depending on writer/incarnation).

Anti-villain: An antagonist who, while nominally opposing the goals of the protagonist, has a core of nobility and traditional heroic qualities, or understandable sympathetic motivations. Is a "bad actions, good motives" character but approaches the issue from the opposite end of the spectrum as an anti-hero. Again depending on the cynicism/idealism of the work and the character's actions may complete a Heel Face Turn and ultimately become more like a protagonist or hero classic (Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender) or make a slide into full-on villany (Thrawn, several incarnations of Magneto). Many Well-Intentioned Extremists fall under this umbrella, along with a lot of Lawful Evil characters, but whether the label applies to them or not depends on how heinous the actions they take within the story are. Generally there is an in-narrative "line" these characters cannot cross before their evil actions outweigh their noble or sympathetic motives.

Sympathetic villain: A villain who has sad, tragic, affable, understandable or sympathetic qualities which makes them pitiable and/or likeable. While similar to an anti-villain, and they may start out as one, the major difference is that this character has already chosen, or repeatedly chooses, to cross the aforementioned narrative "line" within the story. They are a villain who "has a sad", basically. (Examples include Darth Vader, Mr. Freeze, and Megamind--who as a bonus is operating as a Villain Protagonist.)

There is obviously some gray area and as I've mentioned some characters slide up and down the whole range and gamut depending on how they're written but I promise they are in fact separate categories.

[iamdeltas]

It has been years and yet it still tickles me that Glimmer from SPOP counts as an Unscrupulous Hero. I mean I agree, she definitely does count as one, but it's just funny considering the usual characters that get to be this trope.

For minor context, Unscrupulous Heroes are on the Edgier(TM) side of the Anti-Hero scale. It's not the Absolute Edgiest(TM) end of the scale (that honor goes to Nominal Heroes, which... kinda self-explanatory IMO) but it's only one notch less Edgy(TM) than that.

The typical go-to example of an Unscrupulous Hero is your "ends justify the (very violent and morally dubious) means" types of guys, like the Punisher. The Punisher imo is kind of the best example of this, though some depictions can make him swerve into Nominal Hero territory. Huntress and Jason Todd are pretty good examples too, though I don't read a lot of DC so I could be off-base there.

So the concept of the examples of Unscrupulous Heroes being angsty, violent vigilantes in grimdark comic books, cynical characters who do What Has To Be Done in gritty crime dramas, troubled hardboiled detectives in the film noir genre... and a pastel pink glittery princess from a reboot of a 80s toyetic cartoon? It's fucking incredible.

[kahran042]

TV Tropes Rant Chireiden ~ Subterranean Animism

Or maybe Lily really shouldn't have hung out with the bullies and Jerk Jocks in Gryffindork.

[short-wooloo]

The book isn't out for another few months, but Mace Windu: Glass Abyss already has a tvtropes page, let's see what-

"Antagonist in Mourning: A variation. Mace was never Qui-Gon's biggest fan or advocate, but even he's impacted by the maverick's death and the loss of his unique perspective to the Order."

Fuck you tvtropes

"Antagonist" is now added to the "words I'm taking away until people learn what they mean"

ITS NOT THAT FUCKING HARD TO LOOK UP A DEFINITION Y'KNOW!

WORDS. HAVE. MEANING!

When in the flying FUCK was Mace ever an "antagonist" to Qui-Gon?

Or is "antagonist" just what we call anyone who dares to not go along with everything mister "uwu perfect one true Jedi" does?

We actually have very little on what Mace thought of Qui-Gon, and what we have doesn't amount to anything more than polite disagreement

But I shouldn't be surprised that tvtropes did this, considering what has happened before with their Mace-related stuff

[midgardianqueenreturns]

Wow TV Tropes is sounding kinda defensive over Netflix ATLA to the point of insulting the animated series

[tenmyoujump]

“it’s pointed out that the tragedy of [2-3] is that nobody was really a bad person” idk ben and trilo count in my eyes, for starters

[otnesse]

Honestly, Misty got redeemed overall with Aim to Be a Pokemon Master, and I'm glad about it. That said, like with the Unintentionally Unsympathetic entry for her and to a degree, Brock, I see a vocal minority of her haters have taken TV Tropes and basically pushed this shade on her:

"Back in the 90s and the 2000s, Misty was one of the most popular characters in the franchise for being a Fiery Redhead Action Girl and hilarious Deadpan Snarker who acted as the perfect foil to Ash Ketchum while also being a bit of a mentor to him, with legions of fans shipping the two of them together. Many were devastated and outraged over her getting Put on a Bus at the end of Johto, and you could see people demanding her return to the series as a main character as late as 2009, long after her replacement May had been retired and while May's own replacement Dawn was getting ready to leave as well. However, starting in the early 2010s those same fans would look back on Misty’s tenure and scrutinize it for a multitude of reasons. Unlike later female characters, she lacked any kind of Character Development beyond becoming less violent after getting Togepi (which some don't count as actual development, considering the show as a whole became less violent around this time), with said violent outbursts now being seen as more cruel than funny. These fans also point out that for all of Misty's bravado, she rarely battled against trainers aside from Team Rocket, which made her credentials seem like at best an Informed Attribute, and at worst made her many critiques of Ash seem hypocritical. The introduction of the infamously polarizing anime version of Iris was also a contributing factor; Iris was widely suspected to be an attempt at recapturing Misty's success, which caused many viewers to go back and re-evaluate Misty in a more critical light, with some pointing out that quite a few of Iris' most criticized qualities had earlier been displayed by Misty. While Misty still retains fans to this day, she's become far more divisive, with many fans arguing her initial popularity came mainly or even solely from being Ash's first female companion."

Oh, trust me, the scruitinization was going on during AG as well, and that was just showing how some people lacked loyalty to her to begin with. Scott85 was among the worst.

As far as the rest, seriously? Misty if anything was probably one of the better-developed members of the cast (if there was anything preventing her from being fully developed, it's that Masamitsu Hidaka forced her to be kicked off for "not being girl enough"). She actually had to develop from someone who had to present a tough exterior partly due to bullying from her elder sisters to being somewhat open about having a soft side by the end of Johto, while STILL keeping her temper intact. I'll admit she probably didn't get much battles in hindsight, but at least she still managed to GET battles in, and by Johto she was getting a good turnaround by giving SOME focus on her goal. And as far as the outbursts, seriously? Most of her outbursts in Kanto were outright TAME compared to some of her peers in other anime (for example, Bulma outright SHOT Goku a few times, and don't get me started on Naru Narusegawa in Love Hina, who treated Keitaru FAR worse. Heck, even IN-SERIES, Jessie treated her companions FAR worse than Misty EVER did). And as far as Iris, while I'll admit I don't have much to go by regarding Best Wishes due to being on boycott at the time (and I would have watched it on Pokemon TV alongside the other sagas barring OS, even that, if they didn't stupidly do "keep circulating the tapes" for everything barring the immediate beginning and ending of the series prior to shutdown), what little I heard about Iris if anything had me view her as a WORTHY successor to Misty, meaning I didn't even hate her at all. Even her infamous "Just a kid" catchphrase (what caused her to get a hatedom) was if anything more the fault of the writers making Ash regress in development than an ACTUAL issue with Iris herself. At most, I was neutral, even came close to liking her (far more than May and Dawn, those two I downright hated, and still DO hate ultimately, and believe it or not, my hatred of them had very little to do with Misty other than maybe characterizations). I fail to see how Dawn really developed other than MAYBE going from point A to point B, and May's development if anything was a complete mess (and considering she threw a tantrum after her loss to Solidad and even basically blamed Ash for the loss, I can hardly say she even developed from her insecure self at the beginning at all), with Lillie doing May's character development a LOT better (and if anything May was moreorless a standard Shoujo Protagonist). The only things they had over Misty was an (over)focus on their Coordinator goals (and let's be honest, had Misty actually been allowed to go to Hoenn instead of kicked off, her Water Pokemon Master goal most likely would have gotten a LOT more focus and thus actually ALLOWED her to be better developed goal-wise). Oh, and Misty was NEVER a hypocrite regarding her criticisms of Ash. At least Misty actually WON her battles when she had them, while Ash for half of Kanto literally got his badges via dubious methods that didn't even entail battling (especially when one remembers that the Pokemon League in the anime was a fighting tournament, meaning Ash needs to actually BEAT the Gym Leaders just to genuinely qualify), and even regarding the Cascade Badge, her SISTERS were the ones who awarded the badge to Ash that time, NOT Misty. She if anything protested that decision. Actually, the only one of the cast who actually WAS a hypocrite was Brock, since he derided Ash for so-called "pity badges" despite his WILLINGLY giving such earlier.

And at least for me, Misty's popularity had nothing to do with when she debuted. It was overall her actual character (and most of those "fans" seem to ignore the actual positive qualities she had on the show, including encouraging Ash [yes, she DID in fact do that, and also did a LOT to actually TRY to help him. In fact, there were more than a few times where if it weren't for her, Ash and co. would have been dead or otherwise unable to continue], also genuinely helping various COTDs like Joe when he was being bullied by Giselle. I can assure you if Misty debuted after May or Dawn or even Serena, I definitely would have genuinely liked her regardless.

The good news is, this is definitely a case of vocal minority, since the Movie 20 poll for various characters made it pretty clear that Misty was liked by fans of all ages enough to qualify in the Top 3 (only Brock and Serena beat her out).

[plumsaffron]

Miracucunts roast pt. 10:

Can we please stop victim blaming young men like Adrien? Come on, he’s actually exploited by his father! And the adults in his life are either complacent or helpless!

This whole time the Adrien fans are more chill than the Marinette fans…

Want an example of toxic communities? There we have it folks! The Miracubozos refusing to move the fuck on from season 3!

Ok what’s with some writers forgetting about Marinette’s Asian heritage in some DC Xover fics?? Y’all are really trying too hard to create bio!dad Bruce AUs! We already have his canon wards, at least those other fan writers are more respectful of the canon sources! Heck, the bio fam batfamily from only their universe/source material is infinitely better than the Xover ones any day!

The DC fans be like, “Huh? What’s up with the Damian tags rising? *looks at social media feed but frowns* Wait why is a soft ass show crossing over with DC? WTF is going on?! They don’t even make sense at all!”

Hope you don’t mind me sharing a few opinions from other similar things:

Danny Phantom x other shows fanfics are probably just diet versions of Miraculous crossovers. But the bashing is quite toned down on his parents and canon girlfriend Sam that a portion of the fandom detests. I don’t mind crossover ships since the DP phandom is chill about it but it’s always the miracubitches ruining crossover fics. Funny thing is that Danny’s fans also do the “Protagonist Morality Centric” and coddle him more/treat him better than the Miraculous protagonists’ fans. Strangely he isn’t an abuse victim yet some fans write him as such. I don’t even follow the tags anymore since late 2023 but I’d occasionally share my opinions/criticism when I feel like it, and nobody dogpiled me on AO3! Pointing out various fandom parallels, they aren’t so different in their stans and hatedoms after all. It’s just certain sections of a community being way louder than others. I’m kinda uninterested in it now because DP’s canon is more bearable compared to Miraculous. At least I’d admit that it’s not the best show in history because of said canon and some fans making Danny immune from criticism, treating him like an innocent angel even though he’s got flaws like everyone. Though their canonically released graphic novel really fixed things.

Turning off the mature button on any art site without tag filtering is a regretful decision… even worse on D/A when there’s clearly sus art that deserves to have the mature filter. I feel bad for innocent and good users who are too used to using the site to upload their content… but they really should move somewhere more manageable like tumblr, AO3 or whatever else isn’t uber cultish or volatile.

I mean, I have nothing against that kind of art but those people should’ve just done that on the more mature sites instead of the mainstream sites… I’m guessing they’re too damn lazy to do it… the staff are either too busy with other matters, complacent with it or just don’t care whilst punishing those who did nothing wrong.

Strange thing is, when other people give out similar toned reviews on other series, they didn’t get deleted by TVTropes staff or mass flagged by the stans. Probably because they are secretly biased when it comes to how opinions are said and done. Or maybe my deleted review was a little too “harsh and mean” for their standards. That site has potential for introducing canon content and fanfics for curious internet users, not just people using creative funny terms. But they’re overshadowed by biased staff who’s more worried about silencing harmless opinions rather than making sure people are behaving. The review section should have the 5 star system like other sites so people can sort them out, hence reducing the likelihood of being silenced.

In mid 2022, I tried to create a page for a popular canon divergent fanfic from One Punch Man but that got deleted for “lack of updates/maintenance”. Yet someone else did the same thing and didn’t get whacked in early 2023. Probably because that current version is better written than the old version. Even so, there should’ve been sections for the old and new versions because some readers were ok with the old deleted one. Even if there were Karens fussing a lot with guest reviews (no login needed so that’s bad for inactive fics unlike AO3 ones where guest emails are required not just regular users) about the old version on Fanfiction.Net/FFN. No good deed goes unpunished huh?

Indeed. It doesn’t take much for these maggots to discard everything they know goes on in Adrien’s life. They gotta find or make a way to blame him or fault him and put him on equal scale of all else. Gabriel Nathalie and Tomoe can hold hands destroying him and everyone but somehow people will erupt against Adrien over some minor inconvenience to them. Then they want to find way to auto drag him into a situation to be at fault cause well idk. People are weird.

It’s so...ugh.

Oh gawd. That Marinette going to DC thing or that strange Damianette thing. EEK. That thing seems like a some methfic people wanna taken seriously to save Marinette or her to live a better life somehow. Huh herritage of Marinette erasure. These people find new ways to even crap on the girl they want to move to Gotham for some reason. I remember scrolling and few of these crossover methfics were for Lila Saltery. Honestly, what are these peeps doing?

People do love choosing when to purge one while turning blind eyes on another or others doing similar to beyond. Seems these people targeting you view you as their real struggle in life. They want to be pissy and triggered and unfortunately higher-ups are lames. The I’m cool with them doing to it but you somehow cause them to commit...

All cause

DA is pretty cursed. I’m like why at times...

Sucks how some sections/fandoms are rather chill whereas other sections/fandoms of are off the deep end (especially when the deep end ones seem or are the more prominent)

[purpledemonlilyposting]

Oh good the Lorch is sending herself asks about me again.

[Lily's Post]

Oh yeah Lily calling marginalized people a "pick me" for not having the same exact opinions as you doesn't make you look bigoted at all.

Unlike you I don't think children's cartoons are activism. And my pointing at that some people like to try to downplay the lesbian themes in Steven Universe, or at least the way lesbians interact with the themes of the show, actually has nothing to do with the show itself.

Hey Lily did you know I also really don't like the word queer being thrown around, refuse to call myself that because it means strange and also dislike "anti-assimilationist" types?

Speaking of which:

[Lily's Post]

Yeah I say that about the kids telling me queer has been "reclaimed" for me. I would think you'd agree, Lily.

Those are two completely different concepts you dumbass. We can have gay content in mainstream media without it being insulting dreck driven by rainbow capitalism.

Lily is the one who basically wants the Hayes Code back. She wants every show and movie to tell her who is good, who is bad, what to think and for the bad guy to get thrown off a cliff at the end.

Lily just because those are the only two pieces of media YOU know I like doesn't mean that's all I like or have ever seen. Have you seen But I'm a Cheerleader? How about Saving Face?

Hey Lily if you'd actually watch my responses to you:

No I sneer at shows with bad depictions of gay characters when they have bad depictions of gay characters. Especially when they break their own spines patting themselves on the back for it.

Are you trying to get ahead of my VOD you falsely struck going back up on Thursday? You know the one where you said an early 2000's flaming queen stereotype in some shitty Alicia Silverstone vehicle was super good "gay rep" because you had some retarded need to paint a narrative that Canadian cartoons "did it first"?

The whole "she's just mad other shows are outpacing things she likes" lol it isn't a competition, dawg. That's you, Lily. That's how you think.

This is how I know its a self ask.

Yeah that's why in my reaction to James Somerton's somehow EVEN WORSE takes on Utena than yours I kept saying things like "Utena isn't really that hard to understand it just tells it's story in a very abstract way".

Also if you think the Sword of Dios is "the sword of patriarchy" you really didn't get it but much like James here I doubt you ever even watched it, Lily. I look forward to your "In a Nutshell" video where you will read out TVTropes with zero context and get everything wrong.

Lily I hadn't watched the show fully in over 15 years when I made my very first video on you. I wasn't even expecting to talk about Utena you just went on a tirade about it in the middle of your 2023 Steven Universe video.

In fact, the reason I even cut that video in the first place is I was so impressed with my own recall of the show. And then it got 5k hits out of nowhere on my then completely unestablished channel because people just hate your takes that much.

And now making fun of you has paid for my new GPU and CPU. No Man's Sky is running great and I'm ready for Dragon Age Veilguard so cheers!

[eddathegreat]

Duality of Taylor

There are a lot of characters in fiction with multiple contrasting sides to them, so Taylor isn't unique in that respect. Just about every teen character in genre fiction since forever has had a bit of a dichotomy between 'badass hero/anti-hero' and 'fucking idiot who can't talk the person they have a crush on.'

So it makes it really hard to explain to people who haven't read Worm why Taylor is so great. 'Badass but also awkward teen' is not really new. But then it occurred to me that, most of the time, the two elements are kind of played against each other for comedy, the juxtaposition of a big, serious situations and the awkward teenager being played against each other.

In Worm, those two things aren't played against each other. Taylor's actions and thoughts as Skitter are fundamentally linked to her experiences as a teenager, dealing with bullies and a negligent system. Her going on a crime spree is her teenage rebellion, played fully seriously, and with a price paid in blood.

So I guess it comes back to quoting the tvtropes page: "the story shifts away from the hellish landscape that is contemporary high school towards the more uplifting setting of a bombed out city at the mercy of a roving band of psychopaths."

[luckybyler]

I'd also like to point out that TVTropes used to have a page for this trope, but I just googled it and the page is no more, not even in archived pages, not even when using the search function on TVTropes itself. That's worrying.

I found an article about a very harming and misogynistic trope called "Born Sexy Yesterday" and Mike and El's relationship is used as an example.

[pro-sipper]

"Dead Dove: Do Not Eat"

About the tag, the origin, and why I think no one on either side of the fandom divide knows how to use it

First of all, I'm crosstagging because I think it's a general issue, not just something for pro or anti shippers. I see the tag get misused on both sides and I just wanted to throw my two cents in

So, where did the term originate? Like all culturally significant things online, it started as a meme. More specifically, a meme from the television show Arrested Development. Character A has put a dead dove into a brown paper bag to store in the family's fridge. On the bag, he has taped a sign that reads, in big bold letters, "DEAD DOVE. Do Not Eat!"

Character B comes across the bag, reads the warning, and opens it anyway. When he's met with, you guessed it, a dead dove, he proclaims "I don't know what I expected".

This is an example of (and has since basically become the spiritual successor to) the "Exactly What It Says On The Tin" trope.

If you want to check out the full history and countless examples of the trope, please check out the page on tvtropes. But for a slightly shorter history - it originated in a British commercial for Ronseal's Quick Drying Woodstain, which the tin claimed "dried quickly". And in the commercial they told you "It does exactly what it says on the tin!" So, the tin says what the product does, then the product does it. You get the idea.

In fandom spaces, the trope just means that the title of Thing (be it movie, show, fanfic, etc) tells you exactly what happens IN Thing. If a show is called "Buffy The Vampire Slayer", you already know it's about a girl named Buffy who slays vampires. If the movie is called "Cocaine Bear", you can bet a bear will get into some cocaine at some point. If there's a fanfic called "Fluttershy Has Tea With Jesus"... you get the idea.

While both tags started out with the same intentions and meaning, I don't think it's any wonder that "dead dove do not eat" has been so easy to misinterpret. For one, "exactly what it says on the tin" sounds more straightforward. You don't have to understand the specific reference to infer it means to check the label (in this case, tags) before purchasing (opening) the product (fanfic)

But dead dove is harder to understand if you don't know the reference. And at a glance, it sounds much darker. Doves have symbolism in multiple religions, and are seen as a symbol of peace. A dead dove evokes images of gore, violence, general unpleasantness. It must only apply to something sinister, right?

The thing about "exactly what it says on the tin" is that the tin needs to say something. You can't point at a blank label and say "here's what you can expect". People would be much less likely to engage with your product if that were the case

In the same vein, slapping "dead dove do not eat" on a fic with no other tags can lead to confusion. In this tag's case, it's a warning. But what are you warning about if you don't also put it in the tags? It leaves people's minds to conjure up only grim and upsetting images of what might be in your fic. Especially when, as it's also common to do, the tag gets shortened to simply "dead dove".

And while, yes, the tag is most likely to get slapped onto fics with dark or upsetting subject matter, that means something different for everyone who comes across it.

Most people seem to think it only applies to inappropriate relationships (age gap, incest, etc). But I've seen it applied to a variety of things, from potentially triggering material (like suicide) to things that simply may not be everyone's cup of tea (like excessive gross-out toilet humor).

In the end, "dead dove do not eat" is a tag that, in my opinion, should not be used as a descriptor as to what type of content your story contains. But rather, a gentle warning to say "hey, I'm specifically telling you what you're about to encounter, so whatever happens next is up to you".

After all, if you read the warning and still open the bag to find something you don't like...

I don't know what you were expecting.

[kahran042]

From the TV Tropes 10 Location Game, with the category "Locations where a major tragedy occurred." Personally, I wouldn't consider the deaths of Jimmy the Scumbag and his wife a major tragedy… >:D

[vlueberries]

One sec I need to talk about Shiva.

Lady Shiva was introduced in Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter in the 70s. She was a traveling martial artist hellbent on getting revenge for her sister, who she believed had been killed by Richard Dragon. She lured Dragon into a trap, revealed herself as Carolyn's sister, and tried to fight him to the death. Once she realized that Dragon had nothing to do with it, that Cravat and The Swiss (unimportant villain characters, they killed Carolyn) had been the ones to kill her sister, she helped Dragon defeat the villain (by giving him her shiny belt so he could redirect the beam of a deadly laser that was being pointed at them while they were fighting, don’t even ask) and Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva became allies, friends even. Dragon convinced her it would be a waste to kill Cravat and told her that he had killed the Swiss himself. She accepted this. They shook hands. This all took place over the course of one issue of Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter. It took ONE issue for Shiva to go from antagonist to ally. She then tagged along with Richard because she liked the adventures he got up to, the danger, the challenge, and the thrill of it. Richard even called her later on when he needed help on a different adventure. What I’m saying is she didn’t start out as evil.

Okay, so what do we know about Shiva so far? She’s a thrill-seeking peripatetic martial artist of great capacity and skill. She cared about her sister. She’s willing to kill. She’s an adventurer and a valuable ally. Great. Moving on.

The Question 1987 features THE Lady Shiva. A character capable of both ruthlessness and mercy, cruelty and tenderness. A curious, thrill-seeking, teasing character. She was vicious and nonpartisan and she was working as a mercenary for hire. But she was an ally, even when she was beating the shit out of Vic. She loved the O Sensei. You can tell she even cared about Vic in her way. I’m not saying she had a heart of gold, or that there weren’t tropes she fell into. She wasn’t and there were. But she was a fairly well-rounded, morally gray character that played a key role wherever she showed up. She was closer to a non-traditional anti-hero than anything else. Idfk, just go read The Question.

I read a tvtropes article describing Lady Shiva as “an archetypical Dragon Lady, complete with sinister motivations and exotic sex appeal,” which… she isn’t. She subverted this trope in several ways actually. She never had “sinister motivations” until Chuck Dixon got his grubby little hands on her. Her motivations were pretty neutral. She had her own set of principles, she was very morally gray. She wanted to travel and fight worthy opponents on her adventures for the thrill of it. She seemed to operate mostly on personal whims, and on the basis of building worthy rivals, out of love for the art of combat. And she didn’t use her sex appeal for shit (until the Richard Dragon reboot comic kms), she didn’t tolerate sexual advances or objectification. She just WAS NOT a conniving temptress, I don't understand where this misperception came from (but I do blame Dixon, I’ll get to that in a sec).

This same article states that she began as the arch-nemesis of Richard Dragon? Unless you’re accepting the version of the two of them from the very short lived Richard Dragon 2004 series as their canonical relationship then NO she didn’t. But I digress.

There was a marked change in the way Lady Shiva was written by the time Robin (1991) came out, this is where her character starts to lean towards the Dragon Lady trope imo. She also weirdly, and maybe arguably, leans more into traditional femininity while at the same time being written as more wild and uncontrollable. Chuck Dixon seemed to fundamentally misunderstand Lady Shiva as a character. He turned her (sometimes ironic) disdain for brutes who wouldn’t last a second in a fight with her into stereotypical womanly haughtiness. He turned her capacity for ruthlessness into bloodlust. And he made her into a conniving, somewhat deranged, villainous woman, tempting our young hero towards evil (oh my!). Again, I’m not saying she ever had a heart of gold, but Dixon changed core character traits (namely her respect for other people's personal code) to turn her into a villain.

“Kill him, little bird. Kill him and become a predator…Aren’t you my weapon? My instrument of death? Say you are mine.” Like?? She would not fucking say that, respectfully.

That isn’t even to mention Richard Dragon (2004) where Dixon turned Shiva’s relationship with Dragon into a resentful, sexually charged dick-measuring contest.

Even so, I don’t entirely hate Shiva as a villain, especially in Batgirl (2000). Pucketts Shiva is a bit less egregious imo. So she’s a passively suicidal evil mentor-figure who wants Cass to be a killer like her. Whatever, I can get on board with that I guess. I can enjoy it because I love Cass and this is a great comic run. But the retcon that–Listen, THE RETCON THAT IS SHIVA’S SISTER BEING KILLED BY DAVID CAIN, SHIVA DESCRIBING THIS AS FREEING, SAYING SHE’S GRATEFUL, THEN AGREEING TO GET PREGNANT WITH HIS CHILD IN RETURN?? This boils my blood. Shiva, who was introduced as somebody who cared about getting revenge for her dead sister. Shiva, for whom freedom and autonomy were core character traits. That Shiva?? That Shiva is relieved her sister is dead and is willing to carry her sister's killer's child to term?? What the fuck?

I hate it. I don’t understand it. Why would you take a complex character who makes it difficult to tell who she really cares about, and flatten them into somebody incapable of love?

Okay I’m done, this is getting too long and I don’t even want to get started on New 52 era Shiva. I don’t have a conclusion, I’m just annoyed. Thanks for reading. The Question (1987) is NOT a perfect comic but if you’re interested in Shiva please please please check it out, it’s very moody and philosophical, noir-esque. Also Chuck Dixon suck my dick.