#Abuse does not make you a complex character or villain

[mischivousvoid]

This might be a weird take, but I feel like people's recent hate of Ford and ignorance of Bills crimes in the GF fandom says less about the fandom and more about how well Ford and Bill are written.

It's a well-known fact that most people online can't comprehend complex characters. It's going to happen, like, everywhere. But why is there not as many people blaming or hating the complex character who actually is a villain of the story? The one objectively more in the wrong?(Y'know, Bill)

Because Ford feels real. Bill doesn't.

Bill is a supernatural entity that nobody expects to ever meet in real life, it's easy to disconnect from his flaws because he's a walking talking triangle. And most importantly, despite being openly evil, he's charismatic in terms of personality and stupidly entertaining to watch.

Not to mention that before the book of Bill, everyone was already blatantly aware of Bill being evil, what they discovered upon reading the book is the opposite - things that would make you sympathetic towards him, his hurt and inner thoughts, something people could relate to. So, of course people would focus on those more. And exadurate it. And frankly, it's exactly what Bill wants. He's manipulated everyone into liking him by showing this, because now he wants something from you, the reader. You're no longer the passive audience, Bill has reached to you directly and is trying to make a deal. He's performing for you specifically. "See, I ain't so bad:)". Obviously he kinda fails in his usual ways due to his misunderstanding of humans and emotional instability making him vulnerable. But ultimately, he still got what he wanted from some people...

Then what about Ford? Well, frankly I think the book of Bill pushed him more "in the front" and people have started to actually analyse his character rather than overlooking it on the surface level.

And discovered that, oh wow, Ford has flaws.

He's always had them, but they're hidden in his behaviour and the framing of the show that's seen through the eyes of Dipper and Mabel just doesn't paint him in negative light. And seeing as there isn't even that much of interactions between Mabel and Ford, it's more so through Dippers eyes, who deeply admires Ford. You need to dig to see the flaws and well people haven't collectively done so until now, focusing more on the characters with more screentime.

And now that they have it's like. "Oh wow, this guy is kinda... morally gray". And more importantly, they notices that he's self-centered(not selfish, self-centered, big difference!). Ford is stuck in his own head, he's distrustful and paranoid, he has unhealthy coping mechanisms. And it shows. He's not a blatantly terrible person, but he's made terrible choices and decisions and he's hurt people. And some of it is because he was manipulated and abused by Bill, but some is just because of his core flaw. The self-centeredness. It feels like Ford doesn't see past his nose, he deeply believes that everything revolves around him and the only truth is his truth. He needs to feel important, to matter. Desperately. It doesn't just mean that he sees himself as the hero, the saviour and the genius. It also means that in the low moments he sees himself as so much lesser than and that he's absolutely convinced everyone does. That he's convinced all his paranoia is at all times justified. He fundamentally cannot put himself in other people's shoes. And yes that hurts others, and it also hurts him because he jumps to the worst conclusions (such as about Stanley and his intentions) and he becomes convinced he has to be right.

Ford is also, and I'm sorry for saying this, questionably likeable. He's socially awkward and nerdy and many people like that, but it's just objectively not as charismatic. His attempts at being cool, are, well... dorky. And it's endearing in a way, but it's not raw charisma. It doesn't captivate and capture as many people as Bill's fun personality, it doesn't distract from who Ford is. And that's on purpose, because Ford's personality is real. And Bill is performing constantly as part of the act to conceal for bad he is.

If you've had the misfortune of meeting a master manipulator like Bill, oh boy am I sorry for you. But I bet for a very long time you were convinced that person is cool before you escaped them, the experience was almost surreal, right? You can swear they were so fun to hang out with, you didn't even notice when it's gotten so bad. Or maybe, you never even got close to them and on the surface they were just so fun and then you find out how horrible they are through the grape vine, and you ask yourself "wow, really, that guy?".

And truly, most people won't even meet a person like that.

But Ford? You've met a Ford.

In a way, at least.

You've definitely met someone who's so in their head they aren't always pleasant. And that guy doesn't care about appearances - he's not lying to you. Just doesn't see things in a different way. And they're open about it, they will tell you that they're right.

And I bet that, if you got close to a person like that, they unintentionally hurt you. They're not... all that, no. But they're dismissive. They don't understand. They hold grudges because they just can't believe your perspective, not even because they do not want to. They will fluctuate between never taking accountability and defending their actions to death and apologizing and agonising so much that you have to comfort them about their own mistakes because suddenly they're the worst person in the world and everything is their fault. And you know, it hurts. It hurts because you love them, because there's so many genuinely good things about them. But it's so mentally exhausting to keep up with their emotional issues that you slowly start resenting them anyway.

And if you have never gotten close to someone like that, perhaps if you didn't find a part of them charming immediately, you've still met them - you just found them mildly annoying. It's the "Um, actually" guy. The "correct your grammar and pronounciation" guy. Even if they're right it's just so. "God, they're a stuck-up asshole." Even if that's objectively not true because they volunteer to rescue kittens every weekend and have invented the cure for cancer.

And it's so much easier to dislike the real problem. You've never met a dimension destroying monster, nor someone who could control your body in a literal way, nor, you know, a "demon". (At least I fucking hope so?). You've met someone who didn't mean to hurt you but couldn't help it. You've met an annoying kinda stuck-up smart guy. And now you see that guy in Ford and you cannot unsee it and you're projecting your feelings.

[askhezureviews]

If I remember, you criticize the diamonds from Steven universe for being complex villains and having personalities. Then, you criticize Stella from helluva boss for being an abusive wife for seemingly no reason. Can you explain to me why this shouldn’t be considered hypocrisy (besides your hatred)?

Hello anon, your tone makes me believe you are a biased Viviziepop Stan who has missed the entire point of my criticism for both shows, so I’ll take this time to clarify:

The diamonds are amazing characters. They are complex. They are terrible people, but have redeeming qualities. They are their own characters outside of Pink Diamond.

Stella is not complex. She’s a terrible person with no redeeming qualities. Stella is not her own character outside of Stolas.

I’m extremely confused how you think these two are related. The only thing I’ve criticized the diamonds for was their rushed , not believable redemption. Let me explain; Blue and Yellow are the exception to a degree. They were expected and forced to conquer and control by White Diamond.

They were racist, homophobic (fusion) , and totalitarian. They murdered hundreds of thousands of people for the sake of their perfect empire, but they were imperfect themselves. If they didn’t do what White said, they would be in trouble and she would take their wills from them.

Blue and Yellow, the only reason they woke up is because Pink Diamond left. Because their closest family member died. After hundreds of years of shutting their emotions out and feeling nothing but emotion respectively, they finally woke up and realized how miserable they were. How miserable they’ve always been, and that’s what ultimately pushed Pink away. Pink was the only one that brought them together, who made them truly happy. Knowing they were responsible for their own misery, they realized they needed to change.

Blue and Yellow decided to become better people, but they still had a long ways to go. There’s a lot of damage to the universe they can never undo. It’s not too late to change, but we only saw them wanting to change for the sake of their family member. Magically, their biased racism and homophobia vanishes and they just become saints to their people over the course of a few years when their destructive terrible nature and belief system has been instilled into them for thousands of decades. The show didn’t have enough time to make this change to their morality believable, but had we had more time, it probably would have been perfectly acceptable.

The biggest issue here however is White Diamond. The show set up to pin the blame of the empire onto her. White diamond does not become a better person because she misses Pink Diamond. Even after the finale she still believes organic life, fusions, and off colors to be disgusting; her racism still peaking through. The thing that “redeems” her is a literal joke. Steven embarrasses her. She becomes insecure when she realizes she’s not living up to her own expectations. It’s all still completely narcissistic in nature.

Even to “redeem” herself, she goes around and lets other people control her body and will instead of the other way around, which, after ordering the conquer of hundreds of thousands of planets , with all the blood and gem shards on her hands- this is an extremely unusual , counterproductive way to undo any damage she caused to the universe. It feels like she didn’t suffer. One does not necessarily have to suffer to be redeemed, but when you are someone so full of yourself, so shut off and uncaring and not empathetic to the world around you, I believe, in order to truly change, you need to understand what other people have gone through because of you. You could argue she’s doing that by synchronizing with other people, but she’s not actually doing anything about the pain or suffering she’s caused them. She just lets them use her and take things out on her which isn’t productive either.

Long ramble short,Stella is flat, the Diamonds are complex. Helluva Boss has time to explore its villain characters, Steven Universe did not.

Stella is an annoying waste of screen time, while the Diamonds are integral to the series as well as the overall message.

These characters and series are incomparable.

[fluffyotters]

People often Misunderstand Dabi's hatred for his dad. It's not because he's abusive

The thing a lot of people confuse is that while Dabi/Touya hated Endeavor, he didn't hate him because he was (physically) abusive to others! Touya does hate Endeavor not because dad was abusive but because he stopped paying attention to him at all and thought he was replaced! Touya hates him because of how much he loves and loved him. He wanted to be like him and to be admired by his dad forever and when he took that away clumsily trying to stop Touya from hurting himself by ignoring him that was even worse. Dabi himself would encourage people to hate on Endeavor for any reason because he wants to make his dad suffer but he does not care about abuse which is what a lot of Dabi apologia and people who fan him (inaccurately) has that he hates his abusive father because he was abuisve. DABI/TOUYA DOES NOT for that reason. Enji was a terrible parent in the past as is known with Shouto and treating his wife Rei and ignoring his non quirk kids Fuyumi and Natsuo, but he was not a terrible parent to Touya until he started ignoring him. In fact while one can assume his training methods can be difficult and Shouto hated them for sure (he was a young kid what the heck) and it's possible that they got harder, but Touya is the kid who will set himself ablaze of his own choice in training so that pain would be nothing to him.

The one person Dabi truly loves and hates is Enji. He wanted his love and attention and if he can't have that he will destroy his father as well as everything he loves including his family until there is nothing left to distract him from him. Using Enji's abuse was only ammo for him! He fully admits Endeavor abused his family because it means nothing to Dabi/Touya. He confesses to kiling more than 30 people (probably because he doesn't know the exact number and lost count after that because it probably is more than 30) because it means nothing to him. This was solely a film to bring down his father Endeavor's reputation at the worst possible time with a double whammy one-two punch of not only ruining his dad's reputation but everyone's view of heroes at the same time with Hawks killing Twice (edited to seem in cold blood). Being a hero is what his dad loved so much, more than him that Dabi made sure to completely destroy the trust people had in all heroes and to make the people dad saved turn against and hate him. See if Touya actually cared about the "abuse" he could have ended Endeavor's reputation and career at any moment. And secretly holding that over his head without him knowing was a trhill for a little while. But all he had to do was well, make such a video before and show a dna test and he could have made everyone very aware that he Endeavor's dead son was alive and that his dad was contrary to his saving the public, horrible to his family. And with it being multiple figures and the clear evidence of him and Shouto being damaged, his wife having been hospitalized, and his children having difficutly with him it would have had actual ramifications. He could have pulled Shouto out. He could have reconected with Natsuo. But he doesn't. Because he doesn't care about that or them except as ammo to hurt his dad. Had things gone differently he would have never said a thing. He worshipped the ground his dad walked on. And as he makes clear with Shouto he doesn't care about Natsuo almost dying when the villain he sent almost killed him despite them having had a past good relationship. All Dabi thought was imagine what Endeavor would think if he died. And Touya had wanted to be back in Shouto's place. Not anymore now, but how dare Shouto have everything he wanted and not appreciate it. Shouto wanted to save hsi brother, Touya wanted nothing more than to destroy him, dad, or both whether to kill Shouto and/or die with him to hurt his dad, or kill his dad directly. And nothing justifies what Dabi does. One could at least understand him wanting to kill his dad, even if that is extreme, Shouto did too and S1-3 it would have been understandable. However, killing lots of random people villains and civillains that have absolutely nothing to do with them is not at all proportional or understandable. And he has zero guilt or remorse and he burns them with fire, an extremely painful excruciating death. They probably don't live long witb how hot his fire is if they don't have a heat resistant skin or quirk (and such people actually gave him trouble fighting) but otherwise it's still a very horrible way to die. He views them all as mere practice kindling and trash to be taken care of and entertainment. People were nothing more than tools in his quest to hurt Endeavor. He loves these random people more than him being their hero? Then let them burn. He doesn't genuinely care whether hero society is corrupt or not. After all, he has no problem with killing solely to spite his dad. He doesn't care about the villains and downtrodden and they were only ever a vehicle to help him enact his eventual revenge in the meanwhile. And readily willing and acting to kill his own family. There was no reason to go after Natsuo and Rei, or Shouto but even allowing extreme leniency understanding that trying to kill his dad and the brother who replaced him is understandable, there is no reason to go after Natsuo and Fuyumi and Rei. Other than that is solely to hurt his dad which is not remotely justifiable.

He got Twice killed and while he says he didn't want Twice to die, if only because he would have helped with his revenge, he very readily had the video made which is extremely convenient. Stupidly reckless of Dabi to let Hawks that close if he actually wanted Twice to survive but on the other hand, he very well could have been saying what Hawks and the others expected to hear. Dabi somehow obtains Twice's blood for Toga later and it just raises even more questions of how and when did he get that? Did he ask for it and just store it for later? (Which weird if he wasn't actually planning this beforehand). I don't see how he would have got enough to be actually in a container for Toga to use that would still be viable if it hadn't been planned for. And he just sat on it until she was emotionally vulnerable and sad and goes here use this. This wasn't about helping her grieve this was getting her even more murder serious and to stop messing about with the heroes. But there is only a small amount of time where they knew that Toga could further copy powers before Twice died so Dabi having it on hand is extremely suspicious since Toga had no idea he had it. And after him helping her and seeming a friend (which he truthfully denies and says only is for his own benefit) h gives her a way to have Twice back and honor him.

Dabi is a very manipulative and cruel And the third most evil in the series after AFO and Overhaul just ahead of Muscular because Touya is smarter, didn't get caught repeatedly and while Muscular is cruel and sadistic and takes great delight in it, Touya is readily willing to hurt and kill his own family and the people he supposedly cares about for the sole singular focused purpose of punishing Endeavor. Dabi is living purely off the extreme rage and focused obsession to make his dad pay that even as his body wounds should have killed him he's still living just to make it happen. Even AFO backed off from even remotely trying to use him as a replacement from the sheer passionate singular depths of Dabi's rage made him unable to be controlled unlike Shigaraki generic molded hatred which passionate but focused on nothing but destroying making it easier for him to take over. And Dabi chose to be like this to deliberately murder and kill people and use them as mere tools. He chooses to continue it over and over living solely out of hatred and spite. This was not created by Endeavor, this is on Touya. People try to blame Enji for creating Dabi which is not true. Did he mess Touya up? Absolutely. Emotional neglect hurts. He would be obsessed with his dad in any form naturally and he would be guilty of that. But Enji is not responsible for Dabi murdering people and becoming a genuine villain. He is not responsbile for Touya going if he won't see me I'll destroy everything he loves. And not responsible for Touya trying to murder his family. He played a role by giving anf taking away love and not getting his clearly agitated unstable son help and absolutely could have done better and is seeking atonment but it is on Toyua all the deeds he had done. And before people say the abuse messed him up, most people do not become serial killers and mass murderers from abuse. (It can contribute but also many were never mistreated or abused at all that do). All it points is that tragedy happens to everyone and that then the personal choice and how to react comes in. Especially since this was emotional neglect not physical abuse. There is a big difference and yes emotional can hurt just as much it wouldn't have turned him into full blown evil like that if he hadn't chosen to be. There were so many ways he could have done a screw you dad look at me without going I'm going to burn you and everything you love to the ground and kill a lot of people along the way. Like I saw a hilarious post about Dabi instead of going okay murder, becoming an All Might Fan and buying all the All Might merchandise such that its everywhere and Endeavor absolutely could not have missed it. And that is the type of petty energy that unironically would have probably worked at getting his dad back to get him to look at him and interact again. (or he could have ignored it as Enji could be disciplined but it would definitely be drving him bonkers so win-win). But even from a young age Touya was obsessive about his dad that he tries to kill Shouto as a baby from the thought of being replaced.

I love Dabi as a villain but it is difficult to see so many blame Enji and abuse for Dabi's choices as if he had no agency in it. And while Dabi would definitely for the public blame Endeavor too, he wanted nothing more for than him to notice and once to always see him and now to make him the only thing Endeavor has by hurting him destroying everything he loves including ultimately himself. Because Dabi love/loved him. And could really care less if he or Enji hurt them as long as it's only him and his dad.

[saffitaffi]

“What if the evil tyrant who likes to kill puppies for fun actually just needed to fall in love with a sweet naive child who redeems them through the power of love and they were actually good the whole ti-“

What if they weren’t, though? What if their life twisted them to the point that they can only love through violence?

What if the narrative doomed them to ever play their role, a role that has already been chosen by forces higher than them?

What if the sweet, gentle character didn’t love them ‘despite their flaws’, or even at all?

Why should they? Especially if it’s a case of kidnapping. ESPECIALLY if they hurt them. Or their friends. Or take away their agency.

What if that strange contradiction of love and hatred in their heart tore them apart and gave them their justified end?

What if they CAN’T be fixed?

What if they don’t WANT to be fixed?

What if we stopped glamorizing abusive relationships and started actually exploring them?

[sammydem0n64]

Constantly thinking about a conversation me and a buddy had about how people in the modern era always end up making or Headcanoning villains as homophobic or just general bigots...

[stardustizuku]

Unfortunately I came across a very strange and misinformed video about Black Butler.

It’s not good. Don’t watch it. Unless you wanna ruin your day, in which case have fun.

Despite it all, I watched it. What left me wondering, however, was how off the mark the person who made the video was on, well, everything.

From their insistence that the Book of Circus Arc theme or point is non existent, to reading Ciel’s character so badly they genuinely thought the Green Witch Arc did nothing for his character development.

While baffled, it also made me think on how someone could read Black Butler so badly.

Sure, you can say that there’s no real way to read or interpret something “in the wrong way” but interpreting The Hunger Games as a pure battle-royale action story would make you believe it’s bad.

“Why are we focusing so much on how the capitol preps them?” Or “Why isn’t Katniss winning everything?” Or “I wanna know more about the rebellion” All questions that miss the actual point of the story - which is criticizing (not solving or ignoring) the way that media distracts us from violence via spectacle.

The same thing applies here. While there is no “right” way to consume media, there’s things that the author makes clear they wanna focus when creating a story. Things that, if you understand, make the story you’re reading actually make sense.

And in Black Butler there’s three things that you have to understand to properly get what Yana is saying.

Sebastian is the protagonist

Ciel and Sebastian’s relationship IS the story.

And that relationship is, fundamentally, a positive one.

A quicker version of it would be:

Black Butler is a love story from the POV of Sebastian, and you have to ship it to get it

- but that’s not entirely true.

You can still look at it as a complex but ultimately positive rship and get in broad strokes of what it’s conveying. It doesn’t have to be romantic. Although, it helps much more than a platonic framing.

(That said, interpreting their rship as father and son, still isn’t the best way to go about it. Mostly because by its very nature of “soul consuming” their relationship is extremely sexually charged. And hey, if you’re into that I don’t judge. However, if you’re desperately trying to interpret their rship as NOT romantic to the point you fall back on heteronormative patriarchal ideals of nuclear familiar as framing device, I don’t think this interpretation bodes with you)

Now, having all that ground work:

Why do I say these are the key components to understand BB?

Okay so, first,

1. Sebastian is the Main Character. The protagonist.

There’s a lot of people who wanna argue against it, claiming he’s either the villain or the antagonist. Both wrong.

He does not function as an antagonist. Even if, and an emphasis on if, you consider Ciel to the protagonist, Sebastian isn’t a narrative antagonist.

If you wanna go back to Creative Writing 101, be my guest. An antagonist is directly defined by the protagonist. It’s the opposing force. If the protagonist wants A, the antagonist wants to stop them from getting A.

Sebastian’s catchphrase is “Yes, my Lord”. He never opposes Ciel, in fact quite the contrary. By the mere fact they’ve created contract, it means that they’ve both agreed in the inevitable outcome.

People want to frame Sebastian as the villain, because Ciel having his soul taken by a demon, would be a BAD END in the context of their moral compass. They see Ciel as a frail victim of abuse, who’s being tricked by Sebastian, who wants Ciel’s soul.

Which is an. Interpretation. A bad one. But still one.

The narrative (and whether the narrative fits your personal moral compass and lack of critical thinking is irrelevant) treats Ciel as an agent in his own destiny. The abuse he suffered was the moment in which he had no control. It’s only after he meets Sebastian that he can rid of both his guilt and his despair, and do what he wants.

In this case though, it’s revenge.

The famous “Asthma” scene shows this. If Ciel is taken back to his past, he becomes helpless. Swarmed with pain and memories that make it so that he can’t even react. Sebastian is his saving grace. If Ciel didn’t have him, and the power he wields to rebuilt what’s broken, he would crumble once more.

If Ciel has a panic attack, because of all the pain he has, Sebastian picks him up and says “you are not a helpless child anymore, you are not a victim anymore, you have the power to do anything. So, what do you wanna do?”

Ciel’s answer is to kill them.

A proper analogy would be to say that, if Sebastian offers a gun, Ciel pulls the trigger. They are both at fault. Sebastian, strictly speaking, is not here to directly cause Ciel’s downfall, but as a tool Ciel uses to plunge into the abyss.

If, again if, you were to frame Ciel as a protagonist, Sebastian falls closer to the “Voice of reason” character. Not a literal voice of reason, but a literary one. If you have a protagonist and an antagonist exchanging ideals, the Voice of Reason serves to engage with the protagonist on their own ideals.

That said, Ciel isn’t the protagonist. The story quickly falls apart if you interpret it as such.

Things such as Ciel’s character arc being…shall I say odd?

It’s not that his character arc isn’t there, but it’s never lineal. His goals stay the same, the only thing that happens is that we start to peel back the “why”s of his goals. Throughout the series it’s never about Ciel understanding himself better, he knows who he is, he knows what he wants, he knows why he wants it. He doesn’t ever need to uncover these, but simply remember them. Because it’s always about the audience understanding Ciel.

He knows he wants revenge.

In the Circus Arc: He knows that he needs Sebastian because without him, the pain of the abuse he suffered would be too much to bear. But WE are introduced to it.

In the Book of Atlantis: He knows that with this new lease he does not want happiness and peace, he wants revenge. The one being told this is the audience.

In Green Witch Arc: He knows that their revenge isn’t for his family, the real Ciel or guilt. It’s because he wants it. He’s angry, he’s upset, and this is entirely for him. The one being told this is the audience.

Except. Not really. The one either discovering or remembering these key moments - is always Sebastian.

Sebastian is the one who reassures him that he now holds the power of a demon to override the pain. Sebastian is the one who remembers that to override that pain, Ciel wants revenge. And Sebastian is the one who discovers that that revenge isn’t built out of grief or guilt, but for himself.

We are witnessing it all, through the eyes of Sebastian.

This is why we have an extremely vague idea of who Ciel is, Sebastian does not have the whole picture.

If you haven’t been reading this manga with your eyes closed, you’ll realize we have a better grasp at Sebastian’s character than that of Ciel. We get a lot of insight on how he thinks and what he values through light hearted dialogue he has with the servants. You even see the character development in these little interactions.

Think about how when he first arrived to the mansion he magically created food with no regards to taste, but when he meets Bard he states that food is created to see whoever will eat it, smile.

That is character development, more than you will be able to see from Ciel.

Because Ciel’s character, while not static, doesn’t go from point A to point B. Mostly, cause it doesn’t need to. He went through that when he lost the real Ciel and got Sebastian. Everything we are watching is the falling out.

Now, given the fact that I’ve told you that it makes more sense for Sebastian to be the protagonist/main character, and that he 100% isn’t either a villain or antagonist in ANY of the interpretations you can get:

Do you believe me?

If you don’t, you’ll probably believe Yana herself.

This is from the first Volume, where Yana herself describes the process of making Black Butler. The primary idea behind the creation of BB was a butler as a “hero”.

If you go back to the introductory chapter, you notice that Ciel is barely mentioned. He’s simply the one to give Sebastian impossible tasks and standards that Sebastian must find how to overcome.

Ciel is properly introduced until the NEXT chapter. The second chapter has this formula too, introducing Lizzie as a problem to overcome. Although, to Sebastian the best way to “get rid of the problem” is simply to indulge her.

The issue here being that the problem isn’t as simple as a business meeting but something directly tied to Ciel and Ciel’s past. Each time that Sebastian has to solve a problem, it chips away at Ciel. While with Lizzie he shows a persona, once he’s alone with Sebastian he acknowledges the toll it took on him. It serves to build Ciel as Sebastian’s master, and how some problems aren’t as simple as discarding a tablecloth.

The third and the fourth, are a unified narrative, with a similar premise to the first chapter. Ciel gets kidnapped and Sebastian must find a way to retrieve him without raising suspicions.

If the first chapter is to set up what Sebastian must do as a butler, the third and the fourth serve to set up what he must do as a demon.

The entirety of the volume, and up to Book of Circus Arc, is about how Sebastian tries to follow the increasingly absurd orders that Ciel has - it is not about Ciel trying to solve them.

That’s how they work, we follow Sebastian for the most part, because he’s the one having to come up with the solutions.

If anything, in early Kuro, where the emphasis was more on a slice of life conflict, Ciel is the antagonist. He’s the one creating problems for Sebastian to solve.

What’s more, in the second volume, the very first chapter is one from Sebastian’s POV. So far, we hadn’t gotten an entire chapter from Ciel’s POV. In fact, I would find it hard to point to a single chapter where Ciel is the POV throughout. The reveal of real Ciel and the flashback is the closest contender.

But once we move past early Kuro, and into Book of Circus, this set up changes.

It’s fairly easy to assume that Ciel is the main character, because from this point on the conflict of the plot sorta surrounded him. We spend a lot of time with him and with his story. The enemies start being people directly tied to Ciel and Ciel’s trauma. Rarely, if at all, we get to see Sebastian before he met Ciel.The framing device for the story, is Ciel.

This is where point 2 gets intertwined.

2.- Sebastian and Ciel’s relationship IS the story.

The story begins at the point where Sebastian and Ciel met. Who Ciel was before he met Sebastian, informs why he’s the way he is when he does. You have to know all he went through to understand why he’s a brat, why he lashes out. However Sebastian’s past doesn’t matter…because Sebastian himself doesn’t care much for who he was, before he was “Sebastian”. That’s also part of the narrative.

Unlike Ciel, he doesn’t seem opposed to revealing information from before the contract. He talks about how pets from where he is from are gross, he talks about how he knows how to dance because of other places he’s been to, and alludes to the life he's lived before.

Just that, to him, they're footnotes.

He makes allusions to a very bland, uninteresting life, up to the point he meets Ciel.

That’s why we don’t know more about his past.

As for why we focus on Ciel’s story…okay maybe we need Creative Writing lessons 102

I studied Dramaturgy for about 3 to 4 years. And something you notice is how play-writing is the quintessential story telling. It’s making it work with the bare bones of a story.

Some other mediums have more finesse, more depth, or more spectacle - all amazing things that work for whatever they’re created for. But understanding a play, how and why it works, helps understand the fundamentals of any derivative story telling medium.

Particularly, conflict.

Conflict is dialogue and dialogue can take many forms. A story, in its essence, is a dialogue between two opposing ideas.

Take Batman, for example, who embodies the ideas of justice and order. On his own, he’s not a well rounded character.

If you ONLY present him, in a vaccum with nothing else, you don’t have a character. You have a list of characteristics that you’re supposed to know.

You only know who he is when you have dialogue with another character.

I say Dialogue, but it doesn’t necessarily mean spoken language at one another. Dialogue can mean fist fighting, playing tabletop games, talking to other people about the other, or even just a competition. The idea is to simply to compare and contrast both ideas.

If you want an example on how tabletop games serve as dialogue, watch the video “Well, Someone Had to Explain the Liar’s Dice Scene” by Lord Ravecraft

Another example, were we to retake Batman, you have him fight Joker. Who’s the embodiment of chaos and randomness.

In the following picture, you get far more information than the one previously shown. While the Joke fights with daggers and fake guns, Batman only uses his fists. He doesn’t use the tricks that Joker does. His serious demeanor, contrasted with Joker’s glee at the dangerous situation. The fact that Batman has a deathly grip on Joker’s shirt, while the Joker doesn’t, which shows a desperation to catch him.

You are being shown, through a dialogue, who Batman is.

It’s so much easier and much more effective to explore a character through another character.

This is the reason why Shonen has a tendency to make incredibly good gay ships. If you want to explore Naruto’s personality, and his feelings of inferiority, you HAVE to have him interact with Sasuke.

If you wanna understand Hinata’s passion for volleyball, you have him enjoy himself the most with the only other crazy motherfucker who’s as obsessed with volleyball - Kageyama.

And I think that originally, Yana had this problem.

Sebastian was the protagonist, but she had little room to develop him as a character in the confines of the manor, dealing with random enemies.

She likely tried to create Grell as someone of the same stature as Sebastian. Someone who could be this other person to engage dialogue with and show or allude to his past a bit more.

The problem being that Sebastian didn’t care for his past. Or really, engaging with anyone. He sees everyone as below him, but when confronted with Grell who isn’t below him, he doesn’t wanna talk to her.

So you’re stuck in conundrum.

How do you have dialogue with a character, that as a character trait, doesn’t really wanna have dialogue?

Well, Grell also solves the problem. Because only the moment she gets him to start any semblance of a dialogue - is questioning why he’s serving Ciel.

And this is the moment when it’s perfectly cemented that the focus of the story is their relationship.

Why is Sebastian here? Why does he stay? What did he see in Ciel that made him want this extremely convoluted contract?

THATS the dialogue.

THATS the conversation we’re having in Black Butler.

We need to know Ciel because understanding who he is, let’s us know WHY /Sebastian/ is here.

Then slowly, with the introduction with the Undertaker, we find out Sebastian’s conflict.

Which is…

He’s scared of losing Ciel. It becomes apparent with the constant imagery of the Undertaker taking away Ciel and at some point even obtaining r!Ciel’s body, that he’s worried it might happen.

But he can only be worried that Ciel might be taken away if he wants to stay near Ciel.

And that’s his character arc.

Realizing that he actually likes Ciel, cares for him and the role he plays a butler that he doesn’t want this to end.

In the first chapters, he doesn’t feel a need to protect Ciel anymore than what’s strictly necessary. Just don’t die, that’s about as deep as his involvement in chapter 4 gets.

But by the Green Witch Arc, he feels a need to protect Ciel from ANY harm.

This is why I also said

3.- Their relationship is fundamentally a positive one.

In broad strokes, Sebastian to Ciel is the person who allows him to survive. He’s not worried about giving up his soul since he’s already dead. While Ciel to Sebastian, is someone who’s making him have fun. He’s slowly becoming more and more attached to Ciel and the life he has with Ciel.

Their relationship is not that of just a predator and prey, but also of master and pet.

In the terms that Black Butler itself would call: Sebastian is a wild wolf acting like a collared dog.

Ciel is aware that the wild beast will eat him at the end of the day, but if he clings hard to leash for now, he might just be able to have Sebastian maul his abusers.

Sebastian as a dog, currently finds that he enjoys being a chained dog.

(This is demonstrated in the Green Witch arc where he quite literally says, he doesn’t wanna be a wild beast and prefers to be a butler)

And much like the actual DOG Sebastian, Ciel constantly interprets his attempts to get close and protect him, as an act of aggression.

This push and pull of Ciel’s perception of Sebastian and Sebastian’s true motives is what feeds the story.

And the briefs interludes were that isn’t the case (what other people call the “plot”, but I would refer to as the connective tissue) such as Sullivan and Wolfram, the other servant’s past, the grim reapers and the like, serve as a parallel to Ciel and Sebastian relationship. Either to signify how they care for each other, highlight their weaknesses or fears, or explore how they feel.

It’s no surprise that Sullivan and Wolfram are parallels to Ciel and Sebastian. A sheltered sickly child who seeks the protection of a cold hearted machine that only knew how to kill, but who eventually found he cared for her genuinely.

Undertaker and Claudia’s relationship being heavily paralleled with them, even though we aren’t 109% sure what they had but heavily implied it was a romantic attraction from the undead supernatural creature and a Phantomhive.

Everything is a parallel.

That’s why, like the approach of the terrible original video, is flawed.

Trying to interpret Black Butler as action scene after action scene, with mystery after mystery with the only connective tissue being the mystery of who burned down the mansion - is missing the trees for the forest.

That’s not the point.

And if you’re too much of a prude to engage with gothic horror in its gothic horror game, I see little point as to why you even bother to engage with it at all.

A lot of people, including the person who create the video, simply refuse to acknowledge Black Butler IS the story of Sebastian and Ciel as a close and positive relationship, romantically and sexually charged. The reason for it being that they’re “put off” by it.

Part of me wonders how much that is genuinely true, and how much is just performative outrage. It’s like ignoring the fact that Cersei and Jami are in an incestous relationship and try to frame it as “platonic love”, because the idea of it is THAT off putting.

But regardless of that, if you don’t like the fact that it’s as canon as canon can get, I would reccomend you don’t engage with the story at all.

As I’ve explained, the entirety of the series is about them. If you refuse to see Sebastian and Ciel as, at the very least, a duo that cares deeply for the other - you aren’t reading Black Butler.

I have no idea what you’re reading.Perhaps your own biases and subconscious stigma with British aesthetic. At that point, watch the fucking British Royalty Gossip Magazine. You’d find more substance there.

Just don’t be like the person in the video, please? Don’t play dumb. Don’t ignore the fact that Yana is a Shotacon, don’t ignore the fact Sebastian is a hero, don’t ignore the fact that the entirety of the story is based on Sebastian and Ciel’s dynamic.

Because if you do, you are ashamed. You are ashamed of what this story is about. You don’t wanna engage with the text, you want to engage with yourself. You wanna project into Ciel whatever traumas and experiences you have, for the sake a vanity project, where you come out as the morally superior.

You don’t wanna talk about Black Butler, you wanna talk about how good YOU are. How you “don’t sin” by watching it “without all the gross unholy stuff”.

Which is the exact opposite of what BB is about.

So, if you don’t want to, save us all the humiliation fetish and leave.

[autisticrosewilson]

It's not that I hate fanon or that I think fanon is inherently less intelligent or morally wrong, but a LOT of fanon is based in racism, misogyny, and classism that I feel like a lot of you accept without question.

WHY is Duke (Daredevil, son of a god, has never once allowed himself to be defined by anyone's actions but his own) relegated to a background role, only characterized by reacting to the whims of other bats?

Why is Babs - Birds of Prey leader and backbone of the hero society, tells Bruce to fuck off and die 4 times a day and is constantly ruining her relationships by being biased and unhinged - Gotham bound, the mature responsible mom of the group who never argues with Bruce and never gets in trouble?

Why is Dick, both a tactical genius and master manipulator, a himbo only appreciated for his sex appeal? Especially when he is both Romani (group of people demonized and condemned as hypersexual by their nature alone) and an SA victim.

WHY is Damian "feral" and "uncivilized" despite being raised as a literal prince? Half of you treat him like a sociopath with no hope of redemption for an unfunny three second joke and the other half of you go full throttle into Bruce's white savior bullshit so that Damian can be "redeemed". Y'know when you're not villainizing Talia and acting like Dick is his other parent, actually.

WHY is Stephanie - extremely intelligent detective who can't stand Bruce and has a living mother she loves - lumped in as another member of the Batfam, a blonde ditz who only cares about prank wars and emotionally supporting Tim?

WHY is Cass - intelligent, a grown adult, suicidal perfectionist - emotionally intelligent, primarily existing to support the characters around her, immediately accepting of everyone she meets regardless of her own morals?

Why is Bruce the golden standard? Enough so that though everyone in the fandom could agree that he's an emotionally unstable wreck, being considered "the most like him" is seen as a compliment and not the HIGHEST insult? Everyone would agree if I said that Bruce purposely self sabotages his relationship half the time and the other half he simply does things without caring about the emotional impact it will have on people because he has to be the smartest in the room, but if I said that makes him a shit partner and emotionally abusive parent the fandom would bend over backwards to argue with me.

Why is Tim "the best Robin" when Dick Grayson invented the mantle, it is impossible for someone to embody the spirit of Robin better than him because he made it and he created what being Robin means. Maybe Tim is the best in Bruce's eyes, but what Robin means and who has the right to give it over was a significant thing they argued about. Tim the high school drop out, and yet also somehow the smartest? Tim "the most like Bruce" except no he's not, that's Cass. Poor neglected, abused, victimized little Timmy (the rich boy at the elite boarding school with loving albeit busy parents and almost every instance of him being victimized by another character has either been racist bullshit - The Al Ghuls and Rose Wilson- or a complete 180 for the character that made no sense when examined through the lens of prior characterization - Jason for instance.)

Almost every fanon trope that gets passed around like gospel seems to deliberately push POC characters and women into the background and strip them of interesting complex traits and stories, usually for the purpose of fitting them all into bite sized incorrect quote character types and uncomplicated narrative roles that are not only completely divergent from canon, but primarily exist to prop up the two rich white boys.

Also the insistence that Bruce, a 20 year old at the time, should actually be excused for how much he mentally and emotionally fucked Dick up because really they're more like siblings! While deciding that Dick at the same age was actually the perfect candidate to be Damian's new parent/guardian...have you lost the fucking plot you don't even make sense to yourselves.

Okay I lied at the beginning, I do hate fanon. You guys are so uncritical about the media you consume it is BEYOND just letting people enjoy things and have fun. I guess it's one thing if you KNOW this stuff isn't canon and UNDERSTAND why these tropes are problematic and you engage with it as such, it's fine read and write what you want, but just spreading the same nonsense around and parading it around as "better than canon" (version of the character so bland and boring you've somehow made the old white men at DC look like geniuses in the art of representation) is just infuriating.

[stardust-falling]

Shen Jiu is an abuser. Shen Jiu abused Luo Binghe and (depending on how you interpret certain parts of the novel) most likely others. He was a profoundly unpleasant person to be around by his own doing, not just some poor misunderstood baby.

Just because he didn’t murder Liu Qingge or sexually abuse NYY doesn’t mean that he was innocent of everything. Especially not his abuse of LBH which is a fundamental part of SVSSS’s story— about cycles of abuse and how someone’s life experiences can shape them in different ways.

Learning about Shen Jiu’s backstory humanizes him. It explains his actions and how he got to where he was.

It does not, and should not excuse him.

Humans can be both abuser and victim. That’s how the cycle of abuse fundamentally works.

I love Shen Jiu. He’s one of my favorite characters of all time. He’s still an abuser.

You can feel sorry for him, but don’t make him innocent. He knew what he was doing. He did it intentionally. He wanted to spite LQG, he wanted to hurt LBH, to destroy his cultivation and even his life.

Shen Jiu is a brilliant portrayal of a truth people are afraid of— that sometimes survivors are not inspirational. Sometimes they’re mean. Sometimes they’re bad people. Sometimes they carry the worst parts of their abusers with them because that was what they feared, and if others feared them then they would have the control they so desperately needed.

Shen Jiu is not a one dimensional villain who is evil for the sake of it. He’s a human character with complex reasons for being the way he is, and a traumatic upbringing he didn’t choose or have any control over.

He’s still an abuser.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

okay so first off. what does being "full on adults" have to do with disliking a character? like?? are we not allowed to dislike or criticize fiction once we cross the age of eighteen?

secondly, i love how they imply that we hate catra because of some sexist reason, but then lists mostly women among the characters who were immediately forgiven and faced no criticism from the viewers. so maybe it's not people "hating on complex female characters" maybe we just dislike poorly written ones.

and who said people don't hold hordak, scorpia, entrapta, etc accountable for their actions? we do, it's just that catra played a more important role in the story as the main villain and adora's love interest so obviously she's under more scrutiny.

we also see her commit more heinous crimes on screen, unlike scorpia and lonnie who were just following orders and hordak whose crimes were all lipservice. it's a lot easier to like a character who only committed heinous crimes off-screen. again, not justifying hordak's behavior, i just think the writers failed to make him an actual threat.

also i don't know how the nimona comics were but in the movie, ballister and ambrosius did have a relatively healthier relationship than catra and adora. mainly because ambrosius never hurt ballister on purpose and he genuinely felt guilty for his actions. even when he turned on nimona, he did it to protect ballister. he wasn't just using all forms of abuse on his boyfriend just for the fun of it, and excusing it by saying that he had a shitty childhood.

"(...) in terms of Catra, we saw the beginning of her redemption arc but she still worked towards it. She still took time to reflect, give genuine apologies to the Best Friends Squad, and turn around for the better."

i'm sorry? when did she apologize to the best friends squad? because i only remember her giving a half-assed apology to adora. glimmer and bow never got an apology from catra. glimmer especially deserved an apology because catra's actions led to her mother's death. also, i've already talked about how catra didn't actually change for the better and kept repeating her toxic habits, so i trust i don't have to say it again.

i do agree that in azula's case, the hate was more undeserved, mainly because none of her actions were justified by the narrative. and like op said, azula didn't have someone to offer her proper guidance.

(although i have to remind you, ursa never called azula a monster. she disapproved of azula's behavior but the monster part was just how azula perceived it. but i guess you know more about these shows than me, right?)

and that's where catra's actions can't be justified because she got multiple ways out, people in her life were constantly giving her chances, and she still chose to do evil. catra had all the resources she needed to become a better person, she was given opportunity after opportunity from the very first episode, and she still chose to participate in the war and chose to abuse and hurt people.

[sepublic]

Unlocking the Sad Backstory

I find it interesting how a lot of arcs in TOH have this general pattern of…

Character hurts others -> Character is unhappy, reconsiders their harm -> Character begins to do better -> Character’s sad backstory that re-contextualizes them is unlocked

And it applies even to characters that aren’t exactly villains or even antagonists, but for whom hurting someone nevertheless is a major premise! So to look at examples;

Amity is Willow and Luz’s bully, but we see how she’s unfairly manipulated by Lilith and is ashamed because of it. Luz reaching out to her makes Amity reconsider, she undoes the binding oath she placed on Luz. Then we see Amity’s siblings and how both parties are toxic to one another, and then we get a flashback confirming her parents are abusive. In regards to Willow specifically, Amity acknowledges she’s done harm to Willow in burning her memories, and works to fix them with Luz before we get this context.

Emira and Edric are also toxic to Amity, but in their next appearance they’re remorseful about what they’ve done to Amity, they’re working to make it up to their baby sister. And while they’re not present in the aforementioned flashback, their parents being confirmed as abusive tells you everything you need to know about them.

Lilith has a petty rivalry with Eda, but we see how much she cares and keeps breaking the law to look the other way, too. Then we see how she’s pressured by the Emperor’s Coven, and even threatened by Belos, before she captures Eda. We learn of her curse, but again; We see Lilith next and it’s reiterated that she believes this will cure Eda, we remember wanting to be kinder happened after cursing Eda. We see Lilith attempt to free Eda, and then we get the backstory about how the curse was mostly an accident. We get more info later on how Gwen’s neglect contributed to Lilith’s inferiority complex.

Hunter is the Golden Guard, he threatens to boil Luz, Eda, and King to death and wants the Selkidomus dead, but won’t even do it himself. He kidnaps Palismen to feed to Belos. But then later we see how he’s unhappy over his situation, how he feels like his uncle won’t let him help. Hunter begins to show consideration towards Flapjack and later Luz when he reveals his name, and then we get context as to how physically abusive Belos is, and where that scar came from. Flapjack returns and Hunter spares him.

Alador is either a controlling abuser to Amity, or a neglectful one. But he does hold his wife accountable when she tries to betray their daughter by going back on her end of the deal, and later shows genuine love for Amity when Alador isn’t more concerned about the family’s socioeconomic status. Amity admits how unhappy she is, Alador realizes he truly is hurting his daughter, and promises to talk with his wife over this. We later see him try, and then we see that Alador is also abused, and it’s implied his neglect comes from overworking himself in exchange for his children being spared the same.

Boscha is a bully, through and through. She torments everyone for purely petty reasons. But she also admits to feeling similar pressure as Willow, and then confesses to being lonely without Amity, Skara, Amelia, or Cat. Amity acknowledges that Boscha is lonely, but points out that Boscha needs to respect her for who she is. Boscha listens, and helps stop Kikimora. In the credits we see fully that she really was a miserable, scared child being manipulated by a grown adult.

The Collector is aiding Belos’ genocide, and (seemingly) knowingly. But they’re also fretful over the nature of their ‘friendship’ and are left betrayed and hurt. They meet King, and after being freed by him, we see how they try to be a good friend to King and are slowly listening to him bit by bit, which is why King vouches for rehabilitation over imprisonment. The Collector is already against harm to a certain point, defying what the Archivists mandate. And then we learn that they were unjustly imprisoned by the Titan, and didn’t even know about death in their childish, simplistic view of the world, seeing people as only broken and unmoving yet capable of being fixed at any time, if all the parts are there.

Gwen makes Eda feel ashamed of her curse, she neglects Lilith. But she does care for at least one daughter, and is horrified when she realizes the harm her antivaxxer actions have done. Gwen makes things up not only to Eda, but Lilith especially in taking her back home, even as Gwen explains during her reconciliation that she honestly saw Lilith as self-sufficient. And then a few episodes later, we find out her husband was mauled and left disabled by the curse, unable to continue his life’s work. And we get even more context for Gwen’s obsession in curing her daughter of the condition that gave her so much guilt.

Camila made Luz feel unwanted at home, going along with the camp, and her outburst later on was the wrong call; But she’s not punished for it, that’s not necessary. Instead she apologizes, we see Camila worry about the camp taking away Luz’s passion by salvaging her daughter’s weirdness for her, we see her be accommodating to Luz and her friends when she returns, having reflected in that time, and offering support. And then we learn that Camila was just like Luz, she fit in to survive, and she lost Manny, someone she needed to stand up for herself.

Bump is introduced as a principal willing to dissect Luz, but he also appreciates Willow’s magic and vouches for her to her parents. We see that he’s actually open-minded and cares about his students, he lets Eda enroll Luz on the fair grounds that Eda clear her own messes; Bump insists on following the coven system and places students into the detention track, but when those kids save the day, Bump owns up to a mistake he clearly didn’t like anyhow and changes things. And then we see his past, and how he’s been improving things this whole time, challenging Faust and looking out for Eda!

Even Steve technically qualifies; He’s a covenscout, he’s a jerk who knocks over someone else’s books to express his cop enthusiasm. But Steve forgives Skara for punching him in the face because he kidnapped her, and then admits to Hunter that what they’ve done is wrong, and he’s now reconsidering. Afterwards Steve has his introspective interactions with King, and then we see his face; Implying (and eventually confirmed by Dana) that he is the older brother that Mattholomule spoke of, who gave him the map to the Looking Glass Ruins that Adrian, in the previous episode, admitted he couldn’t find; Because Steve gave away the map to make his kid brother happy.

Likewise, I want to discuss two characters who don’t exactly fit this sequence, and don’t mature or get better, not of their own volition for one:

Kikimora is Belos’ assistant, she’s complicit in his executions. She tries to murder Hunter out of nothing but jealousy, helps bring Raine to Terra, goes after everyone at the Knee, etc. But then we see Kikimora is miserable because of her unsympathetic mother, who is probably abusive; She has no consideration that her daughter is obligated to their dictator, who demonstrated on live television that he’ll execute even his own high-ranking officials if they don’t go along with him, and Kikimora was there in-person. And is now expected to help with a major event involving other high-ranking officials and the dictator himself.

So we get Kikimora hurting people, being unhappy, and having a sad backstory; But we don’t have Kikimora reconsider the harm she’s doing. She accepts Luz’s help for her own sake, and instead of empathizing with Luz as a result, Kikimora betrays her when she sees a potential promotion. Kikimora is let down, we see later that she’s been demoted to the Crate Coven.

But then she attempts to bring Hunter to Belos, and it’s revealed later that she knows what happens to Grimwalkers like him, and has known about the genocide and still went along out of obsessive devotion. Despite this, Kikimora does not warrant Belos’ callousness, it’s not triumphant it’s just cruel because he was going to kill her just for being a demon, villain or saint it didn’t matter. So Kikimora is given her revenge when she helps free the Collector, who splatters Belos, an injury that leads to his eventual death, and stops the draining spell, saving Kikimora’s own life in the process!

At which point, you think she’d learn, right? But instead Kikimora does the exact same thing as Belos, which Luz calls out, despite having had her pedestal shattered because Kikimora doesn’t care about the harm to others, only herself. And so she can only temporarily be an ally, before going back to being an antagonist; The system is fine if she’s in charge, she doesn’t learn anything from what happened. And Kikimora is captured by rebelling students, and forced into community service four years later.

There’s also Belos, whom… Okay do I even need to explain??? We learn that he is upset by his brother’s death and misses him, too. And he does feel guilt about murdering Caleb and even the Grimwalkers, they weren’t purely replaceable in his eyes! But he never reconsiders his harm, he keeps repeating it, he never changes. Belos doesn’t even acknowledge that he’s doing witches and demons wrong. And while we do get his backstory, it’s clear from his priorities, the details, and Masha and the Titan’s own takeaways that he fully chose his misery, and that his backstory is not so sad with this in mind.

I wonder if the takeaway is that these characters can’t truly get better because in the end, they won’t acknowledge the harm they’ve done; They won’t admit it, they won’t do anything about it. And so they can only be counted on to care about making themselves feel better, but that’s it. And so on a pragmatic level, co-existence has to be forced.

Because with Kikimora, she’s made to do community service, and with prisons being abolished for hospitals, she’s likely on house arrest because the alternative is execution and no state should have that power. And with Belos, he proved himself too dangerous, he was well past his lifespan and dying anyway, and they were not going to sacrifice even a single, unwilling Palisman to keep Belos alive.

As for all the other characters, for whom things do work out with? I find it interesting how Sad Backstory is something for the protagonists and viewers to unlock. Maybe the idea is that the protagonists aren’t prepped to forgive a character simply over what happened in the past, just what’s happening now, and what they’re trying to do about it. You can still empathize when they’re sad, even without a backstory for context because look at Luz during Covention!

But as a whole it makes sense for the takeaways of those around them, because why should I care that you were sad, if you’re still being a jerk anyway? Now I know your sad backstory, but you’ve known it the whole time you were hurting me, so what difference does it make about you if you’re not changing; Do you just expect me to keep forgiving you out of pity?

It could be a consideration for what characters around them might realistically feel. The sad backstory, the re-contextualizing for why they’re like that, is the cherry on top to their arc; Yes this person sucks, but maybe they aren’t having a great time either. They give people a reason to be sympathetic. And then those people get to really appreciate their side of the story when they don’t have to worry about still being hurt.

Maybe it’s also a message to the audience, because with other characters showing that you still need to be careful in extending a hand, and given the toxic and abusive relationships we see, maybe this could be the context for that? An abuser’s sad backstory is the last thing on your mind; Your first thought should be that they’re hurting you.

But if they’re looking for help and actually want to improve, then you can offer it, and if they accept, then you can let yourself be caught up over their tragic past, instead of making excuses for them from the get-go because of that, RIP Hunter. When it comes to Willow, she was allowed to be angry well after learning Amity’s Sad Backstory, when she felt Amity wasn’t pulling her weight in making up for everything.

By contrast we have Eda not really giving a damn whether the curse was an accident, because Lilith still took knowingly took Luz hostage and threatened her, captured Eda. So her present actions are being unaddressed even if Lilith thinks her past one is. And when King vouches for Lilith, Eda refrains from taking vengeance; Lilith saving the family and taking the curse, past and present actions made up for, culminates in forgiveness.

It’s not enough that Lilith felt bad about it, she needed to tangibly do something about it, something genuine that doesn’t miss the point (unlike a certain emperor), and so to a no-nonsense adult like Eda, that’s when she can be forgiven. That’s when her sad backstory resonates, just as for the audience, that’s when we learn it so we can even appreciate it at all.

Some of this may just be basic storytelling conventions, like of course you’re going to get the character first and their characterizing actions, and then their backstory. But then again you could just as easily mix things up. Or it could just be an extension of this show’s larger fascination with re-contextualizing previous scenes and details. I just think it’s an interesting pattern to dwell over, and I wonder if it was intentional, how much was intentional, etc. Because with a show wanting to help kids understand abuse, to avoid it and/or realize it’s happening to them, to get help and heal, and finally figure out if they should forgive their abusers, if they want to… All of this could work in that regard.

[shysublimecoffee]

Marinette receiving the Ladybug mantle was an absolute mistake. I watched the special, and honestly, gurl is doing the most—and for what? A guy? One dude, and she’s ready to throw her common sense out the window. Like, how has Hawkmoth/Gabriel not used his own son more often as leverage against her by now? That’s villainy 101, and he’s just sitting on it. Like for the amount of times I've seen this show rag on ChatNoir because of his weakness in romance when that Ladybug biggest weakness not CN lol.

At this point, I don’t even care about what Marinette’s going through. Whatever emotional investment I had in her? Long gone. She’s out here spinning lies on top of lies, desperately trying to hold together her crumbling Adrien-obsessed empire, and for what? She lost. Game over.

Now, if this were a story about a girl slowly getting corrupted, spiraling into villainy, and intentionally written as a downfall arc? No problem. That would’ve been a compelling narrative with a real lesson for kids about the consequences of obsession and dishonesty. But nope, instead we’re stuck with this mess where her choices make it harder and harder to root for her.

Marinette's speech at the press conference—“Ladybug holds the truth, she holds the truth” —had me scratching my head cause it sound more like a villain then a hero. Like, did the writers forget she’s supposed to have hero-like qualities? She’s meant to be the messenger, the symbol of hope, the hero. But how often does she actually display that in her own show?

Lately, it feels like being Ladybug is more of an obligatory chore for her than something that brings her real joy or fulfillment. Isn’t the whole point of magical girls to inspire, to help others, and to grow through their journey? Where’s the sense of accomplishment, the spark, the joy of making a difference? It’s like they’ve stripped her of everything that should make her role uplifting and meaningful.

I've seen here and there about how MC was never meant to come off that way or the writers are trying to make her more complex or how dare you do you dislike complex female characters or the most used it was never her intention to come off that way it was a mistake.

I want you to picture this without the music just dialogue cause i'm going to be clearcut about this.

Ladybug went to an orphaned, grieving child—one who had been locked away in solitary confinement, surrounded by nothing but white walls and being sensory deprived—and lied to him about his father being a hero. Let that sink in. Gabriel, who systematically abused his own son, was painted as a noble martyr by Ladybug.

Adrien, a kid who was finally starting to question his father’s authority, even beginning to tear down the oppressive image of the man who controlled and hurt him, is now trapped in an even tighter mental cage. After all, if Paris sees his father as a hero, a savior, how could he possibly feel justified in blaming or resenting the man? Gabriel is now a martyr in the eyes of the world, and Adrien is left to wrestle with guilt and shame for ever having cruel thoughts about someone everyone else idolizes.

Ladybug’s decision to perpetuate this lie doesn’t just protect Gabriel’s image—it messes with Adrien’s already fragile mind. Instead of helping him heal or giving him the freedom to process the truth, she’s reinforced the very chains Gabriel used to control him. It’s not heroic; it’s delusional and harmful, all in the name of preserving some twisted version of peace in her head.

You want me to feel pity for a girl who I'm sorry if I sound harsh to yall at the end of the day just want to keep the peace to fill her delusions that everything is going to work out in her part at the end when really she's just the worst type of coward there is when it comes to confrontations lmao. Accountability? She avoids them like they’re some kind of plague. It’s almost impressive how someone can masquerade as a hero while being utterly incapable of facing the hard truths. Lmao, sure, let’s all pity her.

Honestly, in the earlier seasons, at least Marinette seemed to feel bad about her mistakes. Now? She’s only gotten worse. I headcanon that receiving the Ladybug mantle or becoming the Guardian inflated her ego, giving her a power trip. With no proper mentor to hold her accountable and everyone automatically deferring to her leadership, who’s left to challenge her? Well maybe CN if he has the guts to do so but he'd rather cower into his shell lol.

In hindsight, I don’t think Marinette should’ve become Ladybug—not because she lacks the capability, but because the role itself seems to have worsened her as a person. Instead of growing into the hero I though she was meant to be, she’s devolved, losing some of the humility and self-awareness she had at the start of the series.

Let’s be real—we’re in Season 6 now, and we all know the writers aren’t going to make Marinette face any real consequences. The whole universe bends over backward to accommodate her. If you’ve seen Season 5, you know exactly what I’m talking about.

That said, I’ll give credit where it’s due: the special was fun. Yes, despite all my ranting, I actually enjoyed it because it was funny in its own way.

At this point, though, I’m only sticking around for Adrien and Lila. Honestly? I’m rooting for Lila to be the one to drop the truth bomb and expose everything. It would be chef’s kiss poetic if she ended up being the one to set things straight. Lmao.

P.s For anyone who thinks there is a dilemma to be had about the whole thing its really not lol rip the bandaid off.

It reeks of a megalomaniac in the making, making her come off like a gaslighting psychopath. Ironically, it reminds me of Gabriel—especially with the way he used similar wording. Honestly, are we sure Marinette isn’t Gabriel’s true daughter? Because the parallels are man.

I’m genuinely angry that she is the one everyone feels sorry for, and it’s only because the show is stuck in her perspective. If we spent even a fraction of the screen time on Adrien’s pain, it would make for a far more compelling story. It’s infuriating. Marinette isn’t some helpless sheep/damsel victim here—no one forced her into this role at gunpoint. She made her choices, knowingly and willingly. How dare she act like the weight of the world was thrust upon her without her consent? When she very much messed with a grieving kid here?

And yet, Adrien’s pain—real, tangible, and far more tragic—is constantly sidelined. He’s an orphan, being lied to by nearly everyone around him, adults and teens alike, and his suffering is treated as a subplot to Marinette’s endless drama. Why should the audience feel more for her than for the boy who’s lost everything? Why is his pain has to be centered to her??

This isn't a small mistake this has far reaching consequences if the show had the balls to do it to lie to the entire world over a man who terrorized on people fear.

If Adrien ever became a villain, I wouldn’t blame him. In fact, I’d understand and give him the free ticket to go ahead and cataclysm and burned the world .

[breathlesswordsbloodyknees]

Narrative Doom

Introduction

I've been playing around in and exploring this space where Sauron as Halbrand was genuinely seeking redemption, trying not to manipulate events but merely nudge them.

In my view, at this point he's in survivalist bed-rotting mode post-goo-form when he meets Galadriel. (I think he's more of an opportunist than a schemer in this era. Not that he doesn't have those schemes, but I think he's pushing those bad bad urges down. I have a web of scenes that I consider in this view for some other day)

I’m building much of this piece on these previous work: (link) (link) (link)

It's led me down some interesting philosophical rabbitholes, and I'd like to share.

Now, important to note, Sauron is a Maia—not a 'human' by any means. He's an ancient spiritual being who doesn’t feel the way us teeny tiny mortals do.

But on a broader scale: Tolkien’s work, like fiction as a whole, reflects and explores the human experience, so we’re riding that train.

All this with the framework of not absolving him for anything that came before or comes after. I plan on expanding into his evil alongside Morgoth and his actions in Season 2 at a later date.

But right now, we’re just exploring this blip of a moment where I consider Sauron could be genuine in repentance.

This is more an analysis of Sauron, but I feel like it has a lot to explore for Haladriel fans. There's some critique of Galadriel's choices here, but I want to make it clear: I'm not assigning blame. More just digging into the complexities.

And, well, I don't think this ship would be as compelling if it didn't have complexities.

Spoilers:

All of TROP S1

Vague themes/lines in TROP S2, mostly from S2E1.

The Good Place spoilers for overall theme and a few season 4 lines, but nothing outright about the plot.

Trigger Warning:

Be warned, I’m going to delve into some dark themes in a very personal way. Including but not limited to abuse cycles, personal trauma, harmful behaviors, and empathy within all of that.

I won’t lie, this work was hard for me. Painful to untangle. I would encourage you to have empathy and compassion for yourself, as well as me, while you read. I tried to put warnings before I go into these themes. Please take care of yourself.

---

To start

Sauron’s narrative, at its simplest, is a cautionary tale: If you let your ambition and drive for power go too far, you turn to evil. Higher values over sinful pleasures. Pride goeth before the fall.

But on a deeper level, being solely a cautionary tale, an overarching villain, a lesson to learn, what does that mean for the complexities of Sauron in The Rings of Power?

Charlie Vickers puts so many layers and so much emotion into his character. Yet he keeps it to a lot of imperceptible movements that, I found out last night, get almost completely lost in low resolution. I can see that being a part of some of the stricter interpretations of Vickers' Sauron. But there’s a vulnerability there that touches on some deeply raw thoughts.

—

So the relentless question in fandom: Does he mean any of it with Galadriel or is he just the Great Deceiver?

I'd like to ask, how much of it is just some deeply relatable ‘human’ behavior? Deflection, defensiveness. Half-truths, twisted truths, fibs.

Because as he says on the raft, he did tell her the truth, that he had done great evil in service of Morgoth. He never lied to her.

(An aside: I personally don’t give the “my ancestor” thing much weight as a true lie, I mean it’s his backstory and he had more reason for it than the Darkling did imho)

But really, who doesn’t try to hide and smooth over the worst ugly evil nasty bits of themselves and their past? We want to shine in the eyes of others—it's a fundamental desire to most.

—

On the other side, touching on influence and ambition:

Aren’t we all trying to sway events and leave an impact in whatever way we’re capable? Don’t we all attempt to sculpt the world like clay? Isn’t that really all we can do in this world?

And don't we often tell ourselves that we’re doing it for a better outcome? Even actions deemed ‘good’ and ‘heroic’ create ripples that have negative impacts, if only just for the orc babies.

I’ve been thinking a lot about orc babies.

—

Galadriel, from their first conversation on the raft in S1E2, backs him into a corner. She’s relentless in her quest for revenge against him and he’s whoops—sitting right there, doing the side eye meme. He’s gotta be self-preservational. And that rings true to me more than outright deceit. (At this point)

But I think over the course of the season, playing as Halbrand, “Lost King of the Southlands”, he’s trying. Trying to be “the hero she seeks”. Trying in the only way he knows how, which is…well, not great, he really toes the line. But he’s trying to ‘choose good every day and choose it again tomorrow’, while he’s on the path she set him on. So it’s a step by step journey towards the light, but the path is ever slippery.

And inevitably, as we know, he fails.

—

TW

So what does that mean for those of us who feel like we’re trapped in the narrative, hurtling toward a doomed end through harmful behaviors we can’t escape? Tied onto the train tracks, staring down what feels like an inevitable fate.

When all you’ve known for ages is subjugation and torment and abuse, what do you become? (Which makes Mairon even more painful, with his origin of beauty and light. Like a whisper of I was once admirable too)

I keep coming back to the image of grooves, well worn. And well, under the influence of an abuser and beyond, I too have done evil.

Holding the good you’ve aspired to and the evil you’ve done in one space; it’s a sharp, heavy feeling like holding coals, like touching a hot pan, something to run and hide from. And looking at my deeply ingrained behaviors from childhood, along with trauma that’s happened throughout my life...I see those grooves echoing in jagged bloody ways that feel comforting, even natural.

For a long while, it’s been the only way I knew how to self-soothe, these behaviors that can cause harm to myself and others. So I’ve been twisting around the question: Can we ever truly be free of the evil we’ve done? If it’s all we’ve ever known, baked and beaten into our bone marrow?

In Sauron’s case, the answer is no. His story unfolds the way it was written. The bad guys perish, the good guys win.

(though there’s the “they meet in Valinor” after canon theory, hope ever shines through)

—

That all brings me into The Good Place and that show’s moral thesis.

Spoilers for The Good Place:

More or less, the show states “people improve when they get external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don't?” and “What matters isn't if people are good or bad. What matters is if they're trying to be better today than they were yesterday.” (S4E8)

Scanlons’ What We Owe to Each Other and the rabbithole of contractualism that I haven’t fully delved into.

I resonate deeply with what The Good Place says. All with the understanding that you have to put on your own air mask before you help others, don’t set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.

But I do believe we should help each other in what ways we can, rather than writing people off entirely.

So, I struggle with Galadriel’s moments of “shutting the door” being considered wholly empowering. Light prevailing, resisting the allure of darkness and the draw of power. It is indeed all those things, especially for her journey. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame her.

But there’s an itching here for me and I have to scratch it.

—

In S1E8, if we’re assuming he’s genuine, he put it all out there in the raft illusion. It was his biggest, his all, his hope. A leap of faith. Real vulnerability with an internal truth that was like holding coals.

He did what was ‘right’. He reached for support, for understanding, for community, What We Owe to Each Other.

(though we can’t ignore the scene before that where he’s wearing Finrod’s face. But I haven’t followed that thread yet).

He made a play for a better future.

And she—light and goodness and holiness in her hair, denied him.

“You are Morgoth’s friend”, “There is no such future.” Boiling him down to his worst parts, reinforcing his worst fears.

Is that all we ever can be?

---

TW

When do we write off people like Sauron, with all his history of wrongdoing? People like my abusers or even myself? When does the potential for redemption become irrevocably lost?

How much empathy should we show, and what are we obligated to offer? What do we owe to each other? All of this while carefully balancing the line of not condoning or becoming an apologist, along with taking care of yourself first.

It’s mind-boggling.

---

The answers are out there: self-compassion, self-forgiveness. Change comes from within. Balance. But it's the same way people say go outside, exercise more, drink more water to fix depression. When you're in the throes of darkness, those words feel hollow, trite. And that glossy sunlit path is more than treacherous when you walk it, especially alone.

So again, I say, I scream: Should we not still help each other?

It's not just internal and external separately, we need both. I have to believe that. Internal change and external support.

—

Conclusion

In the end, I'm really only left with more questions. This barely scratches the surface of what I've been brewing on, I could go round and round for days. I mean, that’s what I’ve been doing this week.

Regardless, all the typical takeaways feel hollow. Choose light, choose hope, every single step, no matter how hard.

It’s never quite that simple, on a very visceral level. And for some of us, like Sauron, it never materializes.

It all just eats and scratches and twists inside me. Ultimately though, I think Caitlin Seida said it best about hope and redemption and the struggle in her poem, Hope is Not A Bird, Emily, It’s a Sewer Rat. Which I greatly hope you’ll read and find what I have in it. (link)

So I guess we keep being scrabbly little sewer rats, hoping to claw our way out of the dank dark cave. And y’know, it may not mean much, but I’ll be here, down in the muck. Right there with you.

Maybe that’s all we owe to each other.

Follow-up

[merwgue]

Tamlin is one of the most misunderstood and controversial characters in the ACOTAR series, and while some of his actions—like locking Feyre up—were inherently wrong and abusive, they stem from deep-rooted trauma and manipulation, making his story much more complex than people give him credit for.

1. Trauma from Amarantha – 50 Years of Hell Tamlin spent 50 years under Amarantha’s rule, being groomed and manipulated. He was powerless to save his court and the other courts from suffering, and that burden fell squarely on his shoulders. For half a century, Tamlin lived under the constant pressure of being the one to break the curse, with everyone’s freedom hanging on him. He was traumatized, broken, and desperate, having endured endless torment. This trauma shaped his every decision when it came to Feyre, and while his actions—like locking her up—were wrong, they were driven by deep-seated fear and an overwhelming need to protect her, which he saw as his only chance at redemption.

Tamlin’s fear wasn’t just about control; it was about trying to keep Feyre safe after having lost control over everything else for decades. But, of course, that doesn’t excuse his abusive behavior. It was wrong, but it’s important to understand where that behavior came from—trauma, manipulation, and the belief that if he failed to protect her, he would fail once again.

2. Reactive Abuse in ACOWAR – Feyre Deliberately Provoking Tamlin In A Court of Wings and Ruin, Feyre plays a dangerous game of provoking Tamlin to make him react in ways that paint him as the villain. This is reactive abuse. She comes back to the Spring Court with the intention of tearing it down from the inside, manipulating Tamlin’s emotions and pushing him to his breaking point. She does things deliberately to make him angry and hurt him, knowing he will react out of frustration and heartbreak.

While Tamlin’s actions in earlier books were abusive, Feyre’s calculated manipulations in ACOWAR cannot be ignored. She deliberately enrages him, knowing exactly what buttons to push, and when he reacts, he’s painted as the bad guy. But let’s not forget: Tamlin was already mentally broken and reeling from losing Feyre, and she intentionally took advantage of that vulnerability.

3. Feyre Destroying His Court – Overkill Feyre’s decision to destroy Tamlin’s entire court is a massive overreaction. Yes, they broke up, and yes, Tamlin made mistakes, but wiping out his entire kingdom because of a failed relationship? It’s spiteful and malicious. Feyre didn’t just want to hurt him emotionally—she wanted to ruin his entire life, his legacy, and everything he had worked to protect. And for what? A breakup? The level of destruction she brings to the Spring Court is wildly disproportionate to Tamlin’s mistakes. She knowingly and willfully destroyed the home and people he loved, leaving him with nothing but ruin.

4. Tamlin Saving Rhysand’s Life in ACOWAR – And Still Getting Trashed Tamlin’s good deeds get completely overlooked in favor of villainizing him. In ACOWAR, he literally saved Rhysand’s life during the battle. Rhys was on the brink of death, and despite everything, Tamlin stepped in to rescue him. Tamlin put aside his grievances and his heartbreak to do the right thing, proving that despite his flaws, he still cared enough to save someone who had wronged him.

But instead of gratitude or any kind of recognition, Rhysand continues to trash Tamlin in ACOFAS and ACOSF. He makes snide comments, mocks him, and even invades Tamlin’s court just to taunt him. It’s infuriating when you consider that Rhys wouldn’t even be alive without Tamlin’s help. How can someone who owes his life to Tamlin continue to treat him like dirt? It’s an example of how skewed the narrative is in Rhysand’s favor.

5. Rhysand’s Hypocrisy – His Own Crimes Ignored Let’s not forget that Rhysand literally murdered Tamlin’s family. Yes, Rhysand’s family suffered a great loss, but they initiated the blood feud by attacking first. Tamlin’s family was killed in retaliation for Rhysand’s father and brothers attacking them, and yet, all the sympathy is directed at Rhysand’s loss. Tamlin’s pain and trauma from losing his entire family is brushed aside, while Rhysand’s grief is front and center, as if only his loss matters.

Rhysand is glorified, and his family’s death is framed as this great tragedy, but Tamlin’s loss? Barely a footnote. It’s a double standard, especially when you consider that Rhysand’s family brought the conflict on themselves. Tamlin’s trauma from losing his family is completely ignored in favor of building up Rhysand as the hero.

6. Rhysand Telling Tamlin to Kill Himself – Beyond Cruel Rhysand’s treatment of Tamlin post-ACOWAR is downright despicable. Tamlin is left broken, suffering from depression, having lost his court, Feyre, and his family. Instead of showing any empathy, Rhysand invades his court and tells him to kill himself. This is someone who is already at his lowest, and instead of being left in peace, Rhysand shows up just to make his suffering worse. It’s not just toxic—it’s cruel beyond measure. For someone who has supposedly suffered so much himself, Rhysand shows an astonishing lack of empathy for someone else in pain.

7. Tamlin as a Victim of Trauma – Deserving of Understanding In the end, Tamlin is a victim of years of trauma, manipulation, and immense pressure. His actions were wrong, but they were driven by fear and desperation, not malice. Tamlin suffered from Amarantha’s grooming, lost his entire family because of Rhysand’s blood feud, and had his court destroyed by Feyre’s revenge. He is not a one-dimensional villain; he’s a deeply flawed character who was broken by his circumstances.

While Tamlin’s mistakes should be acknowledged, it’s unfair to completely vilify him while Rhysand gets away with far worse. Tamlin’s trauma, pain, and losses are real, and they deserve to be treated with the same understanding and empathy that Rhysand’s story receives. At the very least, Tamlin deserves recognition for the good he has done—saving Rhysand, fighting for his court, and suffering through immense trauma without any support. Tamlin deserved better from both the narrative and the characters around him.

(This took me an hour to write I better see NO ONE discrediting me🤣)

[bonefall]

You can ignore this but I was just curious. What are your thoughts on redemption? I know modern day it means "character gets absolved of all wrongdoing and sin, and everyone forgives them yay!" But I'm talking more like, redemption as "Character acknowledges their actions and worldview was shitty, has apologized to all harmed parties, some forgive and some don't, but regardless character works on their issues and strives to become better"

I know characters are writing tools, so the message here would, in short, be "No matter what you can still work to be a better person". So I suppose I'm asking to what extent you agree. Sorry if this ask is everywhere I'm very sick at the moment.

I speak harshly of redemption arcs because I am actually an aficionado. I love them. I can't get enough of them, honestly. They're like eggs to me, I like 'em in all sorts of ways, devilled, omeletted, scrambled, but rotten ones are so bad you've gotta get rid of them immediately.

What often ends up setting me off about how redemption arcs are approached (and discussed) is the pervasive fact that people are more interested in sorrowful abusers than messy victims. They'll turn out to gush about how wonderful it is that Clear Sky cries about how sad murdering women made him, while not even recognizing Star Flower is self-destructing or Thunder is deflecting and misplacing.

It's like... even in fandom you will never get away from it. Your abuser is compelling and complex (meaning "was mean and sad at the same time"), and you're whiny and annoying ("ugh why is this traumatized person doing irrational things?! Don't they ever learn?!")

So when I write and when I talk, victims are always forefront in my mind. I'm really tired of stories that center Good Intentions or "but they loved you"

But anyway, digressing,

I agree. It really is never too late to work to be a better person. It's not even about apologizing, or making up for it, because sometimes you can't. "Sorry" will never undo what happened, and "sorry" doesn't even promise that real change is behind it.

So to me, a good redemption is just about exploring change.

Not suffering, I don't entirely like the idea that pain fixes pain, because it really doesn't. Reflection does. Genuinely understanding what was wrong and why you did it does. In spite of how cathartic it is to see someone get karma, I do hope that 99% of all people could be rehabilitated.

It's why I'm not fond of the phrasing where people want to deny redemption arcs because "they don't deserve it.' The WORLD deserves it. The people they will HELP deserve it. The person they will be deserves it. The question really is-- WOULD they change?

And the answer for powerful people is usually no. Power feels good. Gets you what you immediately want, makes it easy to surround yourself with yesmen who reinforce your excuses.

I think most people want to see others get better, but it's cathartic to me when some characters don't. Redemption arcs are wonderful things, but shouldn't be seen as the IDEAL ending for every villain, y'know?

[ladonnaalata]

I've seen somewhere an HC that Astarion lied to Tav about the extent of Cazador's abuse and that in reality Cazador was a caring and affectionate master.

Can we not do that?

Can we not woobify a villain just like we woobify Astarion?

I think there can be a middle ground between victim blaming Astarion and seeing him as this defenseless little flower who could never hurt a fly.

Cazador is an abuser. Period. Even if he tortured his spawns once in centuries, that is still abuse.

Even if he forced them to sleep with strangers once, that is still rape and it's still abuse.

Even if he entered their minds to control their bodies or thoughts once, it's still abuse.

Even if he gave them rats once, that's still abuse.

And we are quite sure he didn't do any of those things only once in several decades or centuries, as the game shows us.

Even if one doesn't want to believe Astarion (and it's weird because he has zero motivations to lie as the outcome of his life would still be the same: be free from slavery), there are plenty of other testimonies in the game that do that for him.

The servant speaking of the "horrible things" Cazador will do to him once he gets back, the fact that if you handle him back to Cazador he gets skinned alive and turned into a zombie, the siblings who hunt him who are completely subjugated to Cazador's mind control, the kennels and the rough torture instruments scattered around, the simple fact that this man carved personally an infernal mark on the back of his spawns for them to be "consumed", as that is for his own admission their ultimate purpose. He forced his spawns to fetch children as prey for mere revenge reasons and killed the daughter of one his spawns and left the corpse to rot in an abandoned bedchamber. He has a diary in which he records his "special obsession" and punishments he reserved for Astarion. He imprisoned 7000 people and left them to starve in a cage for centuries.

Now, if we want to HC that Cazador still has humanity left in him, and that he doesn't always have gorish violent outbursts we might indeed do that. Two hundred years is a very long time and probably even a Vampire Lord gets tired of the same sadistic routine.

There is no doubt that in his own mind Cazador is doing the right thing and is convinced he was spoiling his spawn, because he probably had it worse during his spawn times. He was impaled for eleven years, he had one of his friends killed under his eyes, and he was probably the only spawn of Vellioth, meaning he was the only one his master could obsess over and torment relentlessly. But his idea of "kindness" is his own perception of himself. It's his own point of view which is completely narcissistic and does nothing to take in consideration the torments of his spawn, even for a while.

We might also think that sometimes he understood pain and suffering and used to comfort his spawns via affectionate gestures but that would hardly be any retribution for torments he himself has inflicted. If anything it would indicate a personality disorder in which sadism and guilt mingle together to create this unpredictable ambivalent monster who acts sweet and caring one day and might skin you alive the next.

Cazador is not good, Cazador is not caring. He is a turbulent, complex, disturbed man with his own demons and painful past, we might feel sad for him, feel compassion for him and appreciate his character without forgetting that overall he's still a sadistic vampire lord who genuinely takes pleasure in others people's pain and treats his slaves as objects to satisfy his whims.

Astarion might be a liar and a manipulator but he lies to bring Tav on his side, seduce them and obtain protection because he's scared his vampirism might get him killed. And overall because that's what he's been taught to do in order to fetch dinner. That's in itself already proof of abuse and trauma response behaviour. But it's obvious when he's lying and when he's not, the game makes it super clear he's only playing with Tav about sleeping together, and Tav is equally amused at his attempts (you get the opportunity to tell him he's silly and a liar).

When he speaks about Cazador, there is no hyperbole in his words. He stops at describing some very specific episodes and vague suggestions, but he never gets overboard in trying to spur compassion or horror in Tav about his past abuse. He casually speaks about his scars when Tav sees them for the first time, and his demeanour is falsely lighthearted, like he's forcing himself to talk about them only because Tav asked. ("Now let's go, if I can't see them you certainly can't"). As a matter of fact, he's reclutant to speak about his past and we can only get him to open up if we choose the romance path and get to deepen our bond with him.

Astarion is selfish and arrogant, he comes from a noble background so it was certainly tough for him to accept and adapt to some things. He's an instigator and a yapper so no doubt he did what he could to annoy Cazador and get on his bad side from time to time. We can even HC he knew the Szarrs and always wanted eternal life without considering the cost, but in my opinion this shouldn't invalidate what Cazador did and how it impacted him. Trauma is also subjective and different for everyone, if for Astarion 200 years of enslavement have been a lot, another would be scarred for life at the mere thought of hunting a victim or at mere touch of a rusty knife on skin.

I think that simplifying this gothic horror which is Baldur's Gate 3's vampiric lore does a disservice to the player and we should take it for what it is: an horrifying story of power, corruption and control, maybe even envy, obsession and sexual attraction but please don't throw in feelings like "care", "gentleness" or "love" because those aren't present if not in the shape of another form of control and psychological manipulation and its still a completely toxic and abusive relationship.

[bestworstcase]

& in fact one of the things that makes salem compelling as a character is this juxtaposition between her personal cruelty and the rightness of her cause; it bears repeating that she chose to live in exile rather than fight back for thousands of years while ozma dedicated himself to the cause of destroying her, and that her war follows on the heels of ozma forging a global alliance and then, as ozpin, abruptly locking down the relics in apparent preparation to summon the brothers back to remnant. if salem’s true goal is to avert the final judgment—get rid of the gods—then it is clear from the historical timeline and the events immediately preceding her commitment to war that she really did not want to go to war.

but with the information she has and the experiences she’s had there really is no other way to achieve her goal – every other possibility requires her to take it on faith that ozma is willing the break from his task now, against all signs to the contrary. he is still openly promoting worship of the brothers and urging everyone to live as if the final judgment will come tomorrow while zealously guarding the relics needed to summon them – no reasonable person would conclude from ozpin’s public actions that he is, in any way, wavering from his task, and so it is wholly irrational to expect salem to just intuit that somehow. and if ozpin is, as he seems to be, more committed than ever and on the brink of summoning the brothers, war is in fact her only recourse.

what makes salem a villain in this story is the abusiveness toward her associates; her individual cruelty, far more than the war of last resort, because the cruelty has no justification. and i think rwby is interested in the tension here, between how long salem refused to fight back and how cruel she is on a personal level. the tenderness with which she speaks of humanity versus her violent resistance to letting herself care about any one specific person.

i think it’s easy to write the cruelty off as a simple matter of salem… not caring, not having any interest in caring – in extremes this is how we get the "spoiled bitch" reading – but the same could be said of ozma; he’s nicer about it but no less willing to use people as disposable tools. why does he lie? why does he manipulate? why does he get violent when his secrets are about to be exposed? you don’t treat people you care about that way.

so ozma has his reasons – the trauma and the cognitive dissonance and the self-hatred and learned helplessness that motivates his submission to the divine mandate, the palliative fairytales, the retreat into dissociation to cope with being forced to exist as a parasite, and so on – and so too does salem, it’s just that hers are made more opaque. what drives this woman who speaks so lovingly of human virtue to treat individual humans like garbage? some of it is sheer alienation – she hasn’t been allowed to participate in civilization in thousands of years, of course she is antisocial – and the trauma of ozma’s betrayal, the deeper trauma of collective punishment, the fear of being hurt again, the resignation to being seen as a monster no matter what she actually does…

which i expect will begin to rise to the surface over the last few volumes. but the point is i do think her villain -> hero arc will turn almost entirely on ending and atoning for the personal cruelty as opposed to the war, and in fact i imagine there may end up being a stretch of the story wherein salem has moved clearly into the ‘good’ camp (as in: made things right between herself and her remaining associates, cinder in particular, and her true end is known to the audience) and still actively in conflict with the vacuo coalition because Her Cause is just. and that’s the kind of complexity rwby is interested in.