#*cuts to circes island*

[charlottedabookworm]

odysseus!percy (still lacking in memories) when clarisse says theyre going for charybdis instead of scylla “awesome great can’t believe i’m saying this but for some reason i agree with clarisse and i hate that for me”

odysseus!percy ten minutes later when they scoot too close to scylla while dodging charybdis and scylla starts snatching the skeleton crew off of the deck “huh. huh. huh. they aren’t screaming and yet-“

[h-didanart]

GUYS—

GUYS HELP—

ITS TAKING OVER—

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Anyways—

So I’ve been listening to the Circe Saga in Epic the Musical for a while, I actually got the idea of giving Bloody and Harvest magic out of it, but that wasn’t enough, I had to go further

So now they are the God of Sorcery or something, look I’m just having fun here—

K, so they have an island to themselves, and they have a lot of magic and are cool, and they look after nymphs and stuff, and they turn anyone who tries bothering them into pigs. I think the Ancient Greek setting would change their backstory a bit but not by much, they probably wouldn’t almost die, but y’know, they’ve still had to deal with shitty stuff, which would actually lead to even more motivation on their end to protect those they care for. They have flower tattoos around their legs because I kinda just felt like drawing flowers and I’m pretty sure that that flower in specific represents strength and healing, and it also helps with insomnia I think. As for the scorpion imagery I chose it because of a kinda joke that’s supposed to be in the au where they choose to have a different day as their birthday and Bloody wants to be a Scorpio because scorpions are cool, and I looked up the symbolism and there’s some rebirth and life//death and change stuff which I think fits them (I am actively choosing to ignore the other potential symbolism, please don’t look it up I’m so sorry my boys 😭) And I like to think they’d use shadow and ice magic because of 1) conquer your fears /literal and 2) as a treatment for their overheating problem

I really like this silly variant, they’re cool

Oh and, uh, about ‘There are other ways’, uhm

Yeah that’s how they were gonna deal with that, cool

[gods-favorite-autistic]

Something something Percy being on the ground bathed in blue light representing his dad while Luke stands above him trying to kill him bathed in yellow light representing Kronos

[helpallthenamesaretaken]

and if we don't get a girly lil montage of annabeth's makeover on circe's island with cutesy music in the background in s2, then what's the point??

like imagine. it's percy in a really tight situation rn. he's tempted by his humane insecurities, risking trusting a suspicious primordial goddess. but he's choked, because he wants to be perfect. he wants to be enough. we see a torn expression on walker's face. indecision and doom is hanging in the atmosphere.

then we cut to some pop music blaring in the background. leah's lips are touched up with lipstick a close up shot. her cheeks are brushed with powdered pink. we see her spinning around in some dresses while giggling with the servants (+reyna cameo). she's shooting star eyes at the mirror with someone gives her a grand reveal of her new gorgeous hairstyle.

oh, where were we again? oh yeah. we cut back to percys life or death situation or whatever.

[queefsencen]

kotlc lineup redone !! (notes below cut)

also @exvelovly // @sleepysketchess basically co-created this

notes !!

- sophie has keefes hoodie !! i imagine its some sort of sports hoodie. maybe hockey or soccer. or bramble

- ^^ his number is 7 for seven by taylor swift

- fitz & sophie have cognate rings

- sophie & tam have matching lyrics written on their shoes (birds of a feather by billie eilish)

- maruca was inspired by leah jeffries & annabeth on circe’s island

- stina’s second outfit was originally biana’s

- dex’s shirt almost said b99, criminal minds, young sheldon, and scream queens

[aroaceleovaldez]

I HAVE BEEN REMINDED OF SOMETHING i think i've made a post about it before but maybe it's just sitting in my drafts. idk, whatever, I will ramble again. Said thing that reminded me was a tiktok by madison_murrah about how the PJO TV show doesn't get the balance between mundanity and magical correct for pjo and I want to expand on that cause while a.) it totally is a problem in the show and i take issue with it, b.) it is also a problem in later books and i ALSO take issue with that too and i would like to elaborate on it

this got long so ramble of the day below the cut:

so the thing is that PJO is actually pretty unique in it's approach to hidden world modern fantasy. like, hidden world modern fantasy is a decently established genre with a ton of examples, but there's a reason why PJO stands out so much, and that's because technically it's NOT "hidden world." There is very intentionally no distinction between the mundane world and the mythological, at least in first series. They 100% overlap. And you do not necessarily need to be "special" to see the "mythological world-" some mortals are totally naturally clear-sighted, a lot of kids are clear-sighted, and it's like 50/50 for if mortals can become clear-sighted. In fact, most demigods aren't immune to the effects of the Mist, all that really matters is if you're actually thinking about being able to see through it. And there's a reason for that!

In general, this format of the "hidden world" modern fantasy serves two purposes: One, as the series is meant to introduce people to Greek mythology and explain why it is relevant and how it can be relatable in modern contexts, it intentionally juxtaposes myths against modern concepts: Medusa runs an apparently average garden statue store. Procrustes runs a mattress store. The entrance to the Underworld is in LA at a record store. Circe lives on an island paradise that's secretly dangerous. Hydras are like chain donut stores that seem to pop up on every corner. Perseus and his mother struggle in Perseus' childhood but get a happy ending. Calypso has an island paradise where the challenge for the hero of our story is being tempted to leave behind his goals. The plot of Sea of Monsters is blatantly the Odyssey, and it's about Percy trying to get to his best friend (who he shares a literal psychic link to) who is in danger of getting married to someone awful (a literal monster) to help you understand Odysseus trying to get back to Penelope and how important to each other and in sync they are. Battle of the Labyrinth is Theseus and the Labyrinth and it's Percy/Theseus trying to protect his home and his people and fellow kids (like Nico) from the dangers in the maze. These are all supposed to help us understand what is actually going on in those stories.

We also still see how Greek mythology influence shapes and influences western culture in general in their world (which is supposed to be our own and so uses real-world examples) - in government, in architecture, in pop culture - Mythomagic is clearly supposed to be your standard TCG like Magic The Gathering. And in general there is no distinction between where the mythological ends and mundane begins - Camp Half-Blood is both a magical training space for demigods and your run of the mill underfunded summer camp, complete with cheesy camp songs and t-shirts and crafts. Olympus is located on top of the Empire State Building which is operating completely as normal except for when a demigod asks to go to a non-existent floor. Your best friend with a muscular disease in his legs is secretly a satyr. Your brother with down syndrome is a cyclops. Your teacher in a wheelchair is secretly an immortal centaur. Your crappy algebra substitute is a literal fury. But also they're still your teachers. The satyr is still your best friend, the cyclops is still your brother. And that brings me to the second aspect of all of this (which i have talked about before [here] and [here]) - the other purpose it serves is that it is an extension of the overarching disability themes that form the core of the series.

The entire reason that meshing of mundanity and magical is so intertwined is entirely because it's part of the disability metaphor, specifically inspired by early 2000s parenting/teaching concepts for children with disabilities, particularly learning disabilities, as trying to reframe disabilities as "superpowers" to empower kids (and still exists in some more modern forms - like referring to disabilities as "being differently-abled") (I talk about it in my previous post on the subject but this generally fell out of favor due to many kids/students finding it belittling of their struggles) - this is why we get the description of ADHD and Dyslexia being framed as "demigod superpowers." In the series this structure is intentionally made to encourage kids to reframe how they view disabilities in general as not something negative but something interesting and fantastical that they may be more open to engage with - and PJO does this in a really nice way where a lot of the disability struggles are still acknowledged and treated sympathetically. Kids still get bullied, Percy and Annabeth struggle in school or with reading/spelling, they grapple with both internal and external ableism. The entire reason for the titan war in the first series, at least from the demigod perspective, is criticizing flawed systems meant to support disabled people that don't do their job effectively or let too many people fall through the cracks. The Mist "hiding" the "mythological world" from mortals (and even some demigods) is about how most abled people (and some undiagnosed people) don't recognize disability struggles until it affects them personally. None of these things are glossed over! It's handled with nuance and care! The series says "you can be disabled and you can be like these fantastical heroes - not in spite of your disability, but alongside it. Neither negates the other." The series was explicitly made so Rick's disabled son could see himself in a hero and learn about mythology for school. Those are the two pillars of the entire franchise: Disability and learning about mythology.

So, when you mess with that "hidden world" structure, the entire thing falls apart and it immediately doesn't feel right, because it's no longer serving either of those two purposes when it needs to be fulfilling both. Late-series Riordanverse has a tendency to compartmentalize the mythological and keep it entirely sectioned off from the mundane. Think about first series and even TKC versus later series - how many mortal characters are there? what do they do? are they just in the background or do they interact with the main cast frequently? are they more than just family or an extension to the main cast? First series we see Percy's classmates frequently, Percy talks about his mundane experiences at school, multiple mortal parent characters (and other mortal characters like Rachel) are active participants in and vital to the plot. We even see a lot of background mortal characters. In TKC, not only are all the magicians technically mortal, but also Sadie's completely mundane best friends help her out. Now think about HoO, or ToA, or even MCGA. Think about the mortal characters in those series. How important are they? Out of the important ones, how much are they in mundane situations versus being almost entirely involved in something mythological? How many aren't related to any of the main cast? How many aren't actively working for a god? The answer is basically zero! Why is that? Because Rick stopped letting the mundane exist. The entire draw of the main series is that Percy does continue to live this mundane life and that adds to his mythological life and makes the balance and meshing between them interesting, but basically all mundanity ceases to exist by HoO. Camp Jupiter is an isolated entirely magic town. Percy and Jason's schools are full of mythological beings as basically the only people they interact with. The Tri's headquarters is an entire giant building in New York City that they completely control that just so happens to ALSO be directly across the street from the local Oracle's house, because even where Rachel lives isn't allowed to be mundane anymore. Why is Olympus just at the top of the Empire State Building versus the Tri having an ENTIRE building? That feels weird and unbalanced, particularly given the difference in importance between those two! Because one is playing into that balance of the meshing of mundane and magical and the other isn't! The show continues this trend. It doesn't allow any of the mythological to exist within mundanity like it functions in the books, which creates a completely different atmosphere and doesn't allow those spaces or scenes or characters to serve their actual narrative purposes, either making it easier to understand mythology contextually or what disability metaphor or representation is occurring there.

It's part of the problem with show!Percy being too mythologically-savvy - Percy is supposed to be the mundane lens unfamiliar with mythology that the audience is learning by proxy through. That's the entire point of the series! If you have Percy already know everything because he's already too ingrained into this mythological environment from the start, and he just exists in this entirely magical world where he understands everything immediately then the literal target audience of the entire franchise (students being introduced to mythology) is left behind! That's part of why the pacing of the show feels so bad! It's rushing through every scene that's more or less the same as the books, particularly anything mythological, because the show is assuming you've already read the books and already know enough mythology to know what it is and what happens and that you don't want to see it again, so it rushes through. The show doesn't explain things that it presumes you already know - worldbuilding, character decisions, basically any mythology, etc, so it doesn't even bother with it.

Later books in the franchise do this too - as long as it's tangentially Greco-Roman mythology, or if it's anything to do with the main series like a reference in TKC or MCGA or etc, it's not going to elaborate much if at all. HoO speeds through Jason's introduction to CHB, and the only reason we get much introduction to Camp Jupiter is because it's actually new. We're no longer trying to contextualize or learn about mythology, it just all becomes set-dressing and references thrown at you rapid-fire as filler. By late HoO and into TOA and TSATS and such, we're not longer even within the realm of pretending like we're adhering to mythology at all. Why is Iris a vegan? Why is Rhea a hippie? Dunno, don't care! Literally doesn't matter! Why are the pandai panda/elephant-monsters and the troglodytes frog-monsters when that's not part of their actual history at all? Well a.) literally just word associations and b.) possibly a little bit of racism (they're supposed to be humans from India and northern Africa, and you made them monsters. cool. okay. and their plotlines totally aren't horrible within those contexts. awesome. please try thinking literally at all next time, thanks). We're not even bothering to look at mythological instances anymore for a basis, a lot of it's written like we're just going based on the first results on google (hi Menoetes and the cacodaemons - the latter of which is not even spelt correctly once in the entire book - which is weird because they do say "daemon" so they know the word. Not that the cacodaemons are mythologically accurate at all because then they would be humanoid. Instead they seem to just be inspired by the things from Doom). None of it serves the purpose of the narrative at all; we're literally just making random choices, some of them quite distasteful! In large part due to refusing to acknowledge the actual contexts of the myths and how that might translate into something similar or equivalent a modern setting to help conceptualize it - something the first series did inherently by design. And we need this! A.) So that you're less likely to make bad decisions because you are inherently thinking about the historical and cultural contexts of these things and how to compare/explain it, and b.) because the audience for later books/the other series and the show is going to be the same as the first series! Those nonsensical references may be at best cameos to people who are already familiar with them, but if your intended audience is new to mythology then making references like that is just going to leave people out of the loop! You don't shift your target audience in the middle of a franchise!

Later books in the series and the show are failing to understand what the first series was actually doing narratively and how it was approaching these subjects and its audience. When you fail to do that, it completely messes up the general worldbuilding and the core themes and intentions of the franchise as a whole. Once you lose touch with that you might as well just be writing a completely different franchise. You need to approach it from the same lens or else it will feel completely off, because otherwise you've lost all base touchstones that make the series what it is.

[dootznbootz]

I don't know about you, but I'm a bit mixed about Calypso in EPC. I mean, her songs are good, her singer's quite talented, so I don't have a problem... musically, at least.

But, story-wise, Calypso seems a bit too victim-like in my taste. "I'm not sorry for loving you" seems like it wants to make us sympathize with her and to consider her as Odysseus' friend.

While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her.

On the plus side, "Love in paradise" affirms she's the powerful one and Odysseus later confirms he doesn't love her romantically (plus Athena's 'he never cheated on his wife' line in "God games")

So it won't be detrimental for OdyPen 🥰.

What do you think ?

Oh, I'm definitely mixed about Calypso in Epic. As just like you said:

"While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her."

The Epic Fandom already DOES forget what happens in the Odyssey or think that they are the same thing. :/ I see stuff talking about Scylla in how Odysseus lights the torches and yet, it's tagged as "Odyssey". I love "light up six torches" as it's very dark but also very painful for Epic!Odysseus and that's really fun!

But I get saddened when people think that happened in the Odyssey ;~; as it's one of my favorite parts where Odysseus, knowing that Circe warned him, still goes to put on his armor to try and fight Scylla himself. He tried so fucking hard to save them. And they all grieved later on together. Eurylochus does mutiny in both but in the Odyssey, it isn't because of Scylla or anything. They were all just...Hungry ;~;

That's not even talking about how the Epic Fandom was when we only got the snippet of "There are other ways" ;~;

I still remember when there were jokes about how Odysseus is just like Hamilton and "Couldn't say No to this." Also Circe never did that to "protect her nymphs" in the Odyssey. She did it for funsies as she's a goddess and can do what she wants. That doesn't mean he was happy though.

I DO trust Jay to do well with Calypso's island. While I really am nervous about "I'm not Sorry for Loving you." like very nervous. I think HE'LL also make it clear that Odysseus isn't well or happy. As he has that cut song with the lyrics of:

"Is this some kind of trick? Pretending I can go Because if so, you're sick My heart's already broken"

So even though he cut that song because the beat and the music did NOT fit the situation, I'm very sure he'll have another like it showing Odysseus' despair and suffering.

I just... sighs I'm in a funky situation where I love Epic. I love it a lot. I think it's a genuinely good and fun retelling. I think while some spots are inaccurate, some are still really neat. I just get sad about this almost...disdain towards the actual Odyssey?

"Oh, Odysseus doesn't mention Penelope and Telemachus as much as he does in Epic-" Yes, he does. It's in so many of the metaphors and there's so many moments where he's clearly thinking about them. I love singing Penelope's name longingly too but an ancient epic poem is gonna be a lil different xD

"Oh Polites isn't really in it-" ...And?? That's okay. You enjoy Jay's character he created who really isn't in the Odyssey as much.

"Odysseus is such a manwhore in the Odyssey-" I am beating you over the head with a fucking rock.

Jay is clearly so fucking passionate and cares about this story so so much (he had a MENELAUS SONG (I grieve it's loss every day ;~; THEY CAN BOTH SIMP FOR THEIR HOT AF WIVES)) He had other characters planned!

But yeah ;~; I get so fucking sad every time someone talks about Epic being better than the Odyssey. Like even JAY wanted to clear that up that "hey, the Odyssey is really cool! I mean I wrote this because I love it so much." and yet... people don't wanna know or even TRY to understand what happens in the actual Epics.

I have hope. I just hope the FANDOM follows through.

[mari-lair]

Jay disclosed Eurylochus doesn't have a clear purpose, so he doesn't have an instrument of his own, using the voice of the crew as his instrument/purpose, said crew isn't happy with Odysseus, at all.

Cuts songs like "Cope with that" and even the way they go "Everything changed since Polites," during 'keep your friends close' show tension has been bubbling under the surface ever since people died under Odysseus's command.

Eurylochus does have a voice of his own and it tells us that he cares a lot but he gives up extremely quickly.

In the start of the musical, his first song is literally called "Luck Runs Out", brought to us during a storm he see no hope of defeating, claiming "Captain, we will capsize with thesе waves, our fleet will fail" and "We're taking too much damage to survive!" while everyone is trying to tilt the odds. Even the crew is trying, because they do not offer Eurylochus any backing vocals here, only shouting about the storm.

During Luck Runs Out, the crew song, Eurylochus always uses "We" amd "us" , except in these part, where there are no backing vocals, is just eurylochus:

"Please don't tell me you're about to do what i think you'll do"

"I just don't wanna see another life end You're like the brother I could never do without"

He is worried about himself and the crew but he is deeply worried about Odysseus too. He has far more respect and care for Odysseus than the rest of the crew.

During circe island he was going to admit he opened the wind bag, something the other men under Ody's command clearly wouldn't disclose, cause they have a impersonal relationship with Odysseus.

Speaking of the wind bag, since i'm already rambling, I always interpreted it as a choice for Eury. A choice to trust his captain (who ordered him to always be devout or 'we will all die on this') or his crew (If Eurylochus didn't open the bag another crew member would have, a lot of people were curious about the bag and annoyed Odysseus doesn't want to open it. The crew was not subtle. This was a crew choice.) and Eury chose to trust the crew, not his his friend, just like Odysseus chose not to trust his second in comand, staying awake for days and days instead.

Eury feels guilty for not trusting his captain but Ody still doesn't want to hear him/fully trust him, he dismiss his confession.

Puppeter is the song that highlight Eurylochus diferences from the crew. The crew went in with Circe, Eurylochus stayed outside, more wary or not as tempted, and once he noticed he dodged an incredible danger he chose to run instead of trying to help the man turned into pigs.

When odysseus say he'll stop Circe, I am confident the crew would encourage him, or at the very least, not argue with their captain on this, but Eurylochus is firmly against it, he does not want Odysseus to face this great danger. Is the same feeling of Luck Runs Out, "i can't lose you" but instead of pleading for Odysseus to change his mind, he is firm.

"No we don't

Look at all we've lost and all we've learned

Every single cost is so much more than what we've earned

Think about the men we have left before there are none

Let's just cut our losses, you and I, and let's run"

This is purely Eurylochus, no crew voices to be heard. He loves the crew, but Odysseus is more than his captain, he is an old friend, the most important in the crew. And he needs Ody to run with him.

"I can hear her still, and her voice deceives

What if she can’t be killed?

Will you choose to leave?"

Odysseus admit he doesn't know if Circe is a lost cause, but he still says "I have to try." and Eurylochus took that to heart.

The success on Circe's island seems to have make Eurylochus change his perspective, gaining appreciation for all of Odysseus attempts to keep people alive, even some for the ones that are considered clear failures by the crew. Cause at least Ody tried to not get anyone killed. He failed but he tried.

" When we fought the cyclops, you were quick to hatch a plan!" vs the initial "you relied on wit and people died on it"

The one who starts the direct call back to the lyrics of Luck Runs Out during Mutiny is Perimedes, after stabbing Odysseus.

"How are we supposed to trust you now? Now your time has come, your luck's run out Now, the time has come to shut you down You relied on wit and then we died on it"

This is sang without Eurylochus, who loss to Odysseys after his begging lead to nothing. He is so angry but he genuinely wants to be wrong. He wants to trust his captain.

"Tell me you did not know that would happen

Say you didn't know how that would end

Look me in the eyes and tell me, Captain

That you did not just sacrifice six men?"

Odysseus is doing what Eurylochus taught him, to just "cut our losses and run" but that is unforguivable, because it was never meant to be a lesson. Eurylochus had been lost when he had that belief. Is no wonder he can't argue when Odysseus says he would have done the same. His answer isnt a denial.

"If you want all the power you must carry all the blame!"

And that's when the chanting becomes a consistent part of the song. When Odysseus is reminder that he is the captain, they are not on the same level, his decision is the final one, it put the whole crew in danger.

(There is also one chant of 'eurylochus' when he says "then you have forced my hand" at Odysseus lack of excuse or explanation that feels worth pointing out. As if that is the moment where he and the crew start to share beliefs again)

I fully believe that when Odysseus was stabbed the crew would have let him bleed to death, but Eurylochus was the one who took a stance and bandaged him. He is really angry and he does agree with the crew's need to do something about this, but he doesn't want Odysseus to die, he still has that "You're like the brother I could never do without" stance.

He is lost again. He can't trust his captain, he give up on trying.

But this time, he isn't alone. The crew have given up too. Look at this, they are following his lead.

How much longer must I suffer now? How much longer must I push through doubt? How much longer must I go about My life like this, when people die like this?

vs

How much longer must we suffer now? How much longer must we push through doubt? How much longer must we go about Our lives like this when people die like this? Woah

That's why the "Ody we're never gonna get to make it home. You know it's true" Kills me. Everyone have given up.

The mutiny isn't what Eurylochus wanted. Once the anger pass he is just defeated. He is no captain. He is still loss. He is back to the beginning, he cares about people, he doesn't want to see them die, but he gives up. He is tired he is starving, he can't take it.

He doesn't believe they'll make it home alive, he doesn't want to try.

And yet... He doesn't let Ody die during the mutiny. He cares so much. So when Zeus gives Odysseus the choice to kill himself or the crew, it must really hurt to hear his captain, his friend, chose the crew.

There are no crew chants in Thunder Bringer, not in "captain...?" nor in "...but we will die", that's purely Eurylochus feelings, his friend. In fact, while the crew did obey Ody when he told them to run away from Helios Island, they haven't called him 'captain' since the mutiny, only Eury did.

[cowboys-tshot]

I keep seeing people call Eurylochus a hypocrite, and while I kinda agree, I also kinda disagree. Hear me out.

So, people's main thing with Eury is that he gets mad at Odysseus for sacrificing six men to Scylla, but he doomed all of the crew by opening the wind bag, and wanted to abandon 22 men-turned-pigs on Circe's island. (For anyone wondering where I'm getting that number, it's from The Odyssey).

But these events aren't really the same, or comparable. Let's take them one by one. (This is gonna be a long one, so I'll cut the post here for the sake of your timelines)

The wind bag. I fully understand why people are pissed at Eurylochus for doing this, and I am too. But you have to remember that he did not do this out of malicious intent. He did not know this would end in the eventual deaths of the entire crew. Even though Eurylochus was warned about the storm being inside the bag, none of them knew it would take them right to the Laestrygonians. He had no idea Poseidon was pissed off at Odysseus for blinding Polyphemus. It was a stupid decision, certainly, but the following events were not intentional on his part.

Circe's island. Eurylochus had no reason to believe there was any way of rescuing those 22 men. Circe's a goddess/witch. What the fuck are two human dudes gonna do about that? Odysseus didn't even know what he was going to do. He would not have had any solution if not for Hermes, which is not something Eurylochus could've predicted. It's pretty reasonable for him to think that those men were a lost cause.

Scylla. So far, all of the deaths have been "accidental:" 14 from Polyphemus, 543 from Poseidon/Laestrygonians, and 1 from Circe (RIP Elpenor). I am not attributing the 543 deaths to Eurylochus for the reasons detailed above. No one knew these deaths would happen. They were all sudden/unexpected. Let's take these next sixth deaths moment-by-moment:

Odysseus redirects the ship, using directions that no one else knew (Odysseus was reading the siren's lips, but everyone else was too busy catching the other sirens, and all of them had beeswax in their ears). Odysseus tells Eurylochus to light six torches.

One by one, Eurylochus watches every man that he handed a torch get brutally eaten. He himself is almost eaten, but he passes his torch off to someone else before he notices the correlation. He only realizes what's happening as the sixth man is about to die, and Eurylochus is too late to save him.

Odysseus won't even gaze at the blood left behind. But it's all Eurylochus can look at.

These deaths were planned. Odysseus knew what he was bringing his men into, and not only did he keep it from them, he sacrificed his men that didn't even know what was happening. And Eurylochus likely feels part of the blame, having been the one to light the torches, even if he didn't know the consequences of it.

Eurylochus has a right to be upset, to be angry. These are the first deaths that could have been prevented, because Odysseus could've simply not taken his men through Scylla's territory. But that's the only way to get home. Odysseus sees it as a necessary sacrifice, but Eurylochus sees it as needless. Because at this point, Eurylochus has given up hope that they'll ever get home. What is the point of sacrificing these men for a goal we will never achieve?

This is not a situation where one person is at fault. Odysseus and Eurylochus are both to blame. Like Scylla says, "There is no price we won't pay." Odysseus himself says, "You know you'd have done the same." People do stupid, dangerous, bad shit to survive. Odysseus sacrifices his men. Eurylochus still wants to live, he just doesn't see the point in trying to return to Ithaca. That's why he kills Helios's cattle. He is starving and he wants to live, even though he knows the consequences.

The whole point of all this is that people will do awful and/or stupid things to survive. Not just Odysseus.

[randomatthingy]

Elpenor and Perimidies shouldn't have been cut. I don't care if we have to have more than 40 songs (honestly, that's an up-side). There are multiple reasons:

Point 1 - It makes us connect with the crew more. As of now, we don't have that many connections to the crew. Polities die like thirty minutes into the show, and Eurylochus, while I think is highly over-hated, is an antagonist and not the best character in the world. Having more people with us throughout the show at large makes us care about the crew more beyond the basic "They are human. I am human. My morality says I should care for them."

Point 2 - They show more grounded characters. Polities are pretty much what would happen if pure sunshine and a golden retriver had a baby who was raised by cinnamon rolls. Eurylochus, like I said, is a pretty unlikeable character. Elpenor and Perimidies are well...just some men.

Point 3 - It makes losses feel more. If you think, we could have one death for each major encounter. Cyclops = Polities. Poseidon and Circe = Elpenor (Elpenor dies on Circe's island, but we would see him after the men in The Underworld, the majority of which died to Poseidon, tying him to both, and driving home how many people died in Ruthlessness. This would also give us two encounters per verse). Finally, Perimidies and Eurylochus = Zeus (which had two men die would drive home how Odysseus is alone now). This would make it feel like we are experiencing losses at every turn, not something like "OH NO! Not background extra #152!"

Point 4 - The Perimidies depression-sub arc would give us another theme in the show beyond "Should I become monster Rawr rawr rawr?" and maybe add a way for people to relate to him (and make Thunder Bringer hurt more) and given the cut song "Cope With That" we could also have a debate about healthy and non-healthy coping methods, which could tie into the Ruthlessness theme with "should we have the ruthlessness to cut someone we love off of an unhealthy coping mechanism if it's working but detrimental to them and their loved ones as a whole."

Point 5 - This is solely based on Elpenor's only significant event in the source material involves him being drunk, but he could have been some sort of comic relief if we needed any more.

Point 6 - With some scenes with Elpenor and Perimidies, we could get the vibe that the crew as a whole was slowly turning against Odyssey, not just Eurylochus. Right now, the only indication is the end of "Luck Runs Out" and the last chorus of "Different Beast"

Point 7 - It could be a bigger mystery as to who opened to bag, as even before The Thunder Saga a lot of people guessed Eurylochus, but if we had more major named characters in the crew, they could also be suspects.

Point 8 - Perimidies betrayal in Mutiny would hurt even more

Point 9 - 🏳️‍🌈

[jazzy-a]

AU where Hermes really IS the one who fights for Odysseus and is not the one who shows up for "Dangerous."

In this version- it turns out that when Athena said goodbye, she meant it. She can't (or won't) help Odysseus after the cyclops incident, leaving him to fend for himself.

But Athena isn't the only divine being whose gifts Odysseus partakes in. During the Circe Saga, Hermes fills the void of Athena, choosing to aid his great-grandson by fostering his unique skills of wit and trickery. (It's like wisdom-- just faster, darling! And don't be afraid to have a bit of fun with it.)

After the Thunder Saga, Hermes loses track of Odysseus, however, and spends time intermittently searching for him. When he finds him with Calypso, he decides he'll steal him away from the island, but is stopped by a barrier created by Zeus that prevents anyone (even a god) from entering, forcing him to confront his father directly. Hermes uses his cleverness to convince the other gods during "God Games"-- but, this time, he'll also have to convince Athena. (She would possibly take Ares' place in the song or Aphrodite, so that Hermes would have to face both gods of war). (Instead of tell your "lover" something, the line would change to tell your "brother" most likely.)

While successful with the others, Hermes, unfortunately, isn't quick enough to avoid getting thunderbolted by his father, though. The saga ends with bloody feathers floating to the ground...

Cut to the Vengeance saga where Athena takes Hermes' place to release Odysseus and sings "Dangerous" with a few obvious changes that cater to her teachings of strategy, etc. Odysseus is grateful, but confused about why Athena has come back to help him after leaving so many years ago. She tells him she didn't come back for him, however....

[gale-gentlepenguin]

Epic the Musical What if

(What if Athena didn’t say goodbye to Odysseus?)

-Everything up to the events of “Remember them” occurred.

-Athena was prepared to say her goodbye. But Odysseus isn’t angry and shouting back… he breaks down.

-Odysseus confesses that she’s right. He should have killed the cyclops. That he has been acting irrationally. He admits that killing that infant really messed him up.

-Athena realizing that yes, Odysseus did indeed screw up. But that he’s admitting his fault. And even she admits that she wasn’t really a fan of baby murder. So she sings instead of my goodbye, it’s called “Refresher” as it’s her bring him back to how he should be.

-The events of “Storm” and “Luck runs out” are the same.

-Athena appears to help Odysseus when talking to the wind god.

-Athena tells him to prepare a second bag. One to show his crew. A decoy bag. Where he keeps the real one hidden from their view. Odysseus doesn’t question the advice. The song “keep your friends close” is relatively the same. Except that Thanks to listening to Athena. The crew only opened the fake bag. One that Odysseus made that would splatter ink on who opened it.

-Odysseus spent 9 days not sleeping only to be awakened by the shout of surprise by his crew.

-Odysseus saw it was Eurylochus that opened the bag. Seeing his stained hands.

-The New song “Traitor” plays. Basically Odysseus calling out Eurylochus. Angry for his actions. And Odysseus questions what he should do. As he almost opened the real bag. Athena tells him he needs to show the crew what happens to traitors.

-but just before he kills Eurylochus. Poseidon shows up. He sings Ruthlessness. But thanks to Athena being by Odysseus side. She tells him to open the bag and point it at Posideon. Cutting off Poseidon before he killed the people on his crew.

-The storm did blow them off course, though instead of the land of Giants, They ended up at Circe’s island.

-Athena tells Odysseus that Eurylochus will betray him again. Which makes Odysseus heart ache as he admits that he wasn’t going to kill him if Poseidon didn’t show up. But he resolves himself to do it.

-Eurylochus however prepares a “Mutiny” with some of the sailors. But they quickly beat the small rebellious soldiers. But they flee, running into Circe. Who turns them all, including Eurylochus into pigs.

-Athena tells Odysseus not to pursue. “They have a worse fate in store.”

-Odysseus finds out it’s Circe’s island and he asks Athena if they should talk to Circe. Athena says “No,” they are better off leaving.

-Odysseus agrees, they get some supplies, leave their former crew mates as pigs and leave. Odysseus does find the pigs and sings “the price of treason” to Pig Eurylochus.

-They basically skip the underworld and we get right to the Thunder saga. They run into the sirens. Cue, “Suffering, and Different Beast.”

-They easily capture the Sirens. But instead of killing all of them. Athena tells them to cut the tongues out of 6 of them. And tie them to poles.

-The events of “Scylla” occur, but none of their men die, only the Sirens they used as bait and tied torches to. Scylla didn’t question the sacrifices as food is food.

-With that, Odysseus and crew finally get to Ithica. Where Poseidon was waiting.

-Poseidon didn’t get a chance to really get his point across and is very salty. A variant of “Get in the water”

-Athena manages to talk to Poseidon. This allowed most of the crew to make it to shore. Except Odysseus. Who Poseidon said needed to learn a lesson.

-That’s when Odysseus suggests a rematch. He will fight Polyphemus one on one. That way he his son gets his chance at retribution.

-Poseidon was amused by this and agreed.

-Poseidon brought Polyphemus to neutral ground as Athena brought Odysseus. To the island of the Sun god.

-The new Song “Eye for an Eye” plays.

-Odysseus realizes he is REALLY outclassed. In this David and Goliath style fight. But he remembers he is a warrior of the mind.

-Odysseus manages to bring Polyphemus down. And the blinded Cyclops begged for mercy. The new song “mercy” plays. Where Odysseus recounts his attempts at mercy. Ending with him killing the cyclops. Poseidon accepting the duel and says that if he spared his son he would have killed him immediately.

-Odysseus finally makes it home, in a song called “Homecoming”

-Odysseus arrives with his men greeting him at the beach. They wanted to be sure their captain made it back. He returned with his men. Though he does lament the loss of Polites and betrayal of Eurylochus. But says he is glad he still had one friend at his side, Athena.

-Odysseus gets the suitors to scatter as Odysseus and his men greatly outnumbered them. Odysseus greets his wife and his 13 year old son. Grateful to be home.

[heartofwolfe]

Whole reason i made a new blog Can i get a word about eurylochus. Im sure other people have said it but if so then ill gladly add on the noise. I dont think hes as hypocritical and bad as some people have made him out to be? And i want to go over his crimes one by one, to bring them to a less exaggerated ground.

"He was going to abandon those men in Circe's island, therefore he had no right rebelling against Odysseus after Scylla."

I need us all to review both situations for a second. With Circe, Eurylochus witnessed what she's capable of, he KNEW Odysseus wouldn't be able to take her. Between losing his captain (and KING) and "cut their losses", it was probably logical for him to leave those men behind in place of losing any more lives or Odysseus himself. Had he known Hermes would show up to help, I'm sure he wouldn't have been so adamant on leaving. He's the voice of the crew, after all.

But Scylla? Odysseus withheld the information of what they were going to encounter in that lair. Odysseus deliberately made him light up torches (one of which would've been for HIM) that would sentence the 6 men that'd carry them. Of course, upon realizing this was his plan, he'd be mad. And we have to realize the rest of the crew are just as sentient as Eurylochus: Seeing their king give up 6 lives like they're nothing for the sake of getting home to his wife... how do they know they won't be next? The 3 men at Circe could've left like Eurylochus did, it was a slip, but Scylla was a choice. (A choice I think was the best outcome! Im not coming for Odysseus here, and I acknowledge and agree it was probably the safest way to get through Scylla. But it doesn't negate the feelings of the crew).

"He opened the wind bag and it got over 500 men killed! With that body count, he was still hypocrital to critisize Odysseus for sacrificing 6 men to Scylla"

I mean, yeah, if we leave it at that. Why don't we ask Poseidon what would've happened to Ithaca if they arrived at the shore instead of being sent to him directly?

Yes, opening the bag is breaking Odysseus' trust. He did wrong at this. But if we are gonna get nitpicky, Odysseus shouldn't have revealed his name to the Cyclops at all— Or just kill him, like Poseidon and Athena told him he should've done. I think they're both at fault for this, and even then, killing his fleet over the entirety of Ithaca is probably the best outcome somehow.

But like, overall, I just don't think we can use the 500 men excuse to throw bricks at this man. No one, not even Odysseus, realized they pissed off Poseidon by hurting Polyphemus and that's where the storm was coming. It's just cruel and it is very obvious it weighted not only on Odysseus but on Eurylochus as well.

"He killed Helios' cow despite Odysseus warning! And then got mad at Odysseus when he didn't sacrifice himself for the crew?"

I feel like he is a little unfair for getting mad at the end, but it is also just very human. We can think of it logically because it is a story we are witnessing, but most if not all of us would've lashed out and felt betrayed if our lives ended because our closest friend (and person that was supposed to look out for us) needed to see their lover.

And the cow... I need you guys to put yourself in his shoes again. Eurylochus didn't believe they'd make it home, he had given up on life, he couldn't trust his brother in arms to bring him home alive anymore. And hunger is so heavy (sorry). Between dying of starvation or drowned by Poseidon, and dying swiftly by divine intervention for pissing off Helios, he probably didn't care (and, like, if he didn't do it someone else in the crew would've. Is the thing.)

I actually think it's such a well done thing, the way he kills the cow because he gave up but deep down doesn't actually want to die— Which is why he gets desperate and seeks for Odysseus' guidance once again when he realizes what he's done. The cow is probably the hardest thing to defend from him, but i think it is so human. And so tragic.

And I need to clarify again— This isn't against Odysseus! I think he makes so many mistakes and is so selfish but also human in a way, I can see where every character is coming from in this musical. And the Odyssey is about a man losing his humanity in a journey back home, so his actions have to be. Bad. But there's a treatment of this characters that ends up coming off as a disservice to each of them. Using Eurylochus as a scapegoat to make Odysseus look better just feels like missing the point of both and their complexities to me. Cause even after defending Eurylochus here, none of these actions are entirely justifiable! He IS hypocritical and selfish as well, and maybe a bit cruel at times. But he's not the root of all evil. If he were, Odysseus wouldn't be the lead.

This post is pretty over the place, so I apologize!it isn't meant to be read as an essay or anything too serious despite the tone that might come off of it. I'm just mostly voicing my thoughts about these characters re: some takes I've seen here and there in other platforms that I can't go too much in detail about. Would love to hear other thoughts, agreeing or disagreeing, although i might not respond too in detail. Also please befriend me i need friends into epic LOL

[peach-heartsss]

I wish Appetite (cut song from EPIC the musical where Odysseus seduces Calypso to trick her and run away from the island) stayed purely because of the fact it uses the "There are other ways" motif which we only get to see once in the entire score

Like I feel like the Circe Saga was useless without seeing any of the motifs and themes introduced there again. It builds up Circe as this powerful sorceress, cunning and willing to do anything to protect her nymphs, but after she instructs Odysseus to go to the Underworld we just never see her again and all those interesting themes get thrown out the window.

Really, what did Odysseus learn from Circe? He was already cunning and a trickster as seen when he tricked Polyphemus, and he became the "monster" just a saga later, trading tricks and peace for violence and brutality. I love the Circe Saga and Circa so much but I wish she was more relevant to the plot and themes of EPIC

[demigod-shenanigans]

Have not posted about mine and @queenjunothegreat’s next gen kids in way too long so: Pipeyna kiddie

-Her name is Emilia McLean. Her go-to nickname is Em. When she’s in trouble, Piper calls her Lea. Yes, she‘s named after Leo. He would not stop wailing when he was told about this.

-Em is Sofía’s best friend. She’s three years older than Sofía and they grow up considering each other sisters. (Good luck trying to tell Sofía they’re not sisters because they’re not related, she’s not related to her dads either and they’re still her dads, so checkmate)

-When they were small, Sofía followed Em around like a little duckling, insisting to play whatever Em was playing and do whatever Em was doing. There’s nothing these two wouldn’t do for each other. (Also yes I gave them matching earrings in different colors because they’re dorks and they would.)

-Em loves skirts and dresses and putting her hair up in fancy braids. Reyna’s got the braiding covered due to her time on Circe’s island, but when Em asked her moms to show her how to do her makeup, they were both sweating profusely because Piper hasn’t let anyone put makeup on her since she was twelve and Reyna’s just never really bothered with it? They spent like an hour trying to watch a makeup tutorial before giving up and admitting they need help. Hylla never lets Reyna live it down, but Emilia is thrilled because “the queen of the Amazons taught me how to do my makeup” is a pretty cool thing to brag about. (There was a discussion on whether or not to call Drew instead but in the end they settled on Hylla because they knew Hylla would be annoying but not as overly smug about it.)

-Drew absolutely takes Em clothes shopping sometimes because she’s decided Reyna and Piper are both useless. Piper lets it happen because it makes Em happy but is also fuming about it. Reyna is honestly just grateful to be getting out of clothes shopping lmao her closet is almost entirely made up of work outfits.

-Piper and Reyna have a rescue dog named Kitty (Em named her when she was three, in honor of that the name is spelled in all caps in all official documents) and Em loves that dog so much. It’s entirely mutual. Kitty is wildly protective of Em and will bite people if they so much as look at her weird.

-Leo is Em’s chaotic fun uncle and they get into so many shenanigans together. Jason is a significantly less chaotic uncle than his husband but somehow always ends up caught in the crossfire of their uncle-niece shenanigans.

-Leo being the chaotic fun uncle inevitably comes back to bite him when Em takes a page out of his book and starts getting into shenanigans with Sofía. Piper is absolutely cackling in the background.

Some more lore stuff under the cut since this is getting kind of long

-Em is actually the only next gen child named specifically after another demigod. This is both because Leo is close friends with her moms and because in a universe where names have power, choosing the name of the guy who beat the odds and quite literally rewrote fate—who defied death not once but twice so he could have his happy ending—is the greatest blessing Piper can think to give her daughter.

-Leo has thought of himself as a curse for a large chunk of his life. The concept of having his name used as a blessing is something he never fully recovers from.

-Speaking of names: Reyna’s bloodline and family legacy was meant to be intricately tied to New Rome’s survival. It ruined her life and took away almost her entire childhood. She happily laid her family name to rest and took Piper’s when they married. They mostly live in the mortal world and her ties with New Rome aren’t nearly as strong as they used to be when she was growing up, but there’s a part of her is terrified that this will come back to haunt her daughter one day. She never tells her daughter about Bellona’s prophecy. She won’t allow for her to grow up with the future of New Rome on her shoulders.

-Emilia is a natural leader. Aside from her general proficiency with various weapons, her main power is a sort of motivational charmspeak—not quite Piper’s ability to control others, and not quite Reyna’s ability to project her own emotions outward, but a milder combination of both that allows her to demand the attention of other demigods, instill confidence in those listening to her and rally her troops. Everyone knows she’d be a praetor at Camp Jupiter in no time, and it terrifies Reyna.

-But Em is a legacy of Aphrodite and Bellona both. She has a place at Camp Half-Blood as well as Camp Jupiter. And when the time comes for her to choose, she chooses Camp Half-Blood and goes back to live with her moms once the summer is over. Reyna nearly cries with relief.

-Maybe Leo’s name worked. Maybe the prophecy won’t be of any relevance until they’ve all long passed, many generations down the line. But Em strays from the path that seemed so set for her. She’s free, in a way Reyna never was.

[adrianlikesdinos]

so. I've been meaning to do a deep dive analysis into the symbolism behind the flowers the Ripper uses in the episode Futamono for awhile now. buckle up yall. here it goes.

In the episode it is brought up that all three of the flowers used (white oleander, belladonna, and ragwort) are poisonous. Jack sees this as the Ripper judging his victim to be toxic; However, flowers hold a lot more meaning than what is just seen on a surface level and I am willing to bet money Hannibal, with his attention to detail and culture, is more than aware of these flowers meanings, even far past just their Victorian meanings. And, there is also the placement of these flowers and why what type replaced what organ.

Lets start with the white oleander. Known in the Victorian era as a sign of caution, used as a warning against the complex nature of love and romance, this flower commonly represents love, desire, and seduction. This meaning and its name is said to stem from a Greek myth. A young man, Leander, was trying to woo a woman and he would swim a great length to her every night, but, one night he gets caught in a tempest. His body is discovered after his love goes out looking for him, calling "oh, Leander! oh, Leander!" his dead and drowned body is clutching the flowers. As a symbol of their love, the flowers continue to grow. This myth is important in the context of this Ripper victim because he had been drowned, the water in his lungs being the first hit or tip in the direction of framing Dr. Chilton and freeing Will. This flower, often symbolizing love, seduction and serving as caution to love and its effects, can also give some bit of motive as to why Hannibal is now working to free Will after he was the one to frame him. Hannibal has realized his misses Will, which is evident in the way he sits alone in his office every week at 7:30, and is now trying to win back his favour. Lounds was not his first attempt at courting. There is also meaning in the etymology of this plants name. Some believe the name comes from a mix of rhododendron and olea (olive,) two plants oleander resembles. When mixed with the belief the name come from the greek words ollyo, meaning "i kill," and aner, meaning "man," it gives the impression of a sort of wolf in sheep's clothing that is very similar to Hannibal's "person suit" further connecting Hannibal to this flower personally. It is also important to note the reason behind what flower replaces what organ. This flower replaces the intestines. There is hardly any symbolic meaning behind the placement of this flower except that oleander poisoning causes GI distress that is particularly prominent in animals and causes severe abdominal pain.

Belladonna is very well known for being extremely poisonous, all of its symbolism stems from this fact. The Victorian meaning for this flower is a warning and an omen of death. Its poisonous properties were already discussed in the show so I won't spend time on how its most popular symbolism is Death. The flowers were placed in a dead body. This is a crime show. Omens of death are a Tuesday night. In Homer's the Odyssey, deadly nightshade was used to poison men who landed on Circe's island and turn them into pigs. The addition of this flower implies the Ripper’s belief his victims are nothing more than rude pigs. The piece that stood out to me the most, however, was the flowers use in the Victorian era to dilate pupils because it was seen as attractive and seductive. After extended use, these eye drops would leave women blind. This directly represents what Hannibal is doing to Alana. The episode cuts from Hannibal declaring to Alana he needs to get his appetite back, straight to this victim. in Mizumono when Alana realizes how blind she has been Hannibal is quick to say "in your defence, i worked very hard to blind you." Hannibal prides himself on how effective his manipulations are, the addition of this flower is a blatant brag. a taunt. The effects this plant's poison has on the body are symptoms very similar to those Will suffered from throughout season 1, like headache, confusion, hallucinations, it also disturbs cognitive capacities like memory. In domesticated animals it causes narcosis. What flowers replace what organs is dependent on how that plant affects the body, this flower, however, does not mainly affect the heart and it is not commonly the cause of death when poisoned. The common cause of death is respiratory failure. It would make sense that, because the lungs needed to stay with the body, the Ripper chose to replace the heart instead because the circulatory system supports the respiratory system.

Ragwort, though poisonous, is never really of any danger to humans. It takes quite a lot to kill and because of its unpleasant taste it is hard for humans to build up enough in their system to do any harm. This plant is also very common, seen as a weed in most places. It holds very little symbolic meaning. What is commonly known about this plant is the danger it causes for domestic animals like horses and cows. It is said that if one seed is inhaled by a horse it would kill it. This wives tale is highly exaggerated but wives tales always come from some vein of truth. When this flower grows in pastures it probably won't do much harm if horses eat it, but too much is incredibly damaging. It becomes deadly when this plant mistakenly ends up dried into animal’s hay. It kills by attacking the liver, the organ which this flower replaces. The toxin itself does not affect the body but the broken down product, it destroys DNA and actively kills the liver’s cells. The danger it poses to animals is what creates symbolic meaning in its use. By replacing the liver with this flower it signifies the Ripper's belief that his victims are nothing but livestock. And the flower's lack of symbolism in culture creates a blank canvas for the ripper to paint his own meaning.

so yeah, flowers are really cool. the Ripper is a hopeless romantic. I would say this is a product of too much time on my hands but school has been kicking my ass and this took like 5 days to put together.

I might be doing a part two because during my research for this, a post by @alice-lecter pointed out the flowers actually used are not the ones mentioned when Jack, Zeller, and Price are discussing the body. Because of the use of both narcissus and hyacinth, I am almost certain the flowers actually used hold at least some meaning because of how Greek myth is often used in the show itself (mainly referencing the whole Achilles and Patroclus conversation.) but that is an analysis for another time. :)