#(to be fair hes been extremely under used imo)

[fr00tbats]

ur honor hes slayingg ✨

[moominvalleysunset]

Jack & Joker episode 10 thoughts on P'Oh's death

I saw a poster who said they were abandoning the show because of their treatment of Trans characters (Their examples: making P'Saran's character Nulek the butt of a joke and killing off P'Jennies character P'Oh quite gruesomely.) And while I completely understand that this is a sensitive topic, especially right now, where Trans rights are being attacked in many if not almost all parts of the world and the result of the US-election does not bode well for a fair and inclusive future (and as you don't know me, let me emphasize: Trans rights are human rights, end of story!), I cannot agree in this instance. Loooong-ass Essay under the cut, be warned!

First of all, Thai culture is a special case as far as gender, gender identity and gender expression goes, both historically and in the progressive movements that are happening both in Thai society and in the entertainment (specifically the BL) industry. You simply cannot judge it solely by Western (or even other Asian) cultural conventions and standards, and by viewing it even more exclusively through an USA-centric perspective you are not doing anyone any favors.

I think that everyone watching Thai BLs regularily at least knows a little about the underlying cultural issues and practices, but for those who would like to learn more, I would recommend reading Dr. Thomas Baudinette's extremely fascinating and well-researched book Boys Love Media in Thailand (https://thomasbaudinette.com/boys-love-media-in-thailand-2022-3/) , where he also touches on the development of presenting trans and genderqueer characters in Thai TV and film (though only up until 2021/22, and the last two years have seen significantly more progress, diversity and inclusivity in Thai media both in front of and just as if not more importantly, behind the camera.) It's a great read, and I'm looking forward to the updated edition coming out next year. Or at least read a Wikipedia article or two about the subject if you haven't already, it's extremely interesting!

Now secondly, I want to take a look at the narrative. First of all, the two trans/genderqueer characters mentioned above are not the only ones in the show. We have Nulek's friend Pharao, Joke's disguise as Jessie (not a girl but a genderqueer person in drag, and emphatically NOT a caricature), Arun as a femme character and not to forget P'Oh's business – and maybe life – partner, a Trans man. Neither of them has been singled out, ridiculed or punished for their not conforming to any hetero- or cisnormative standards in the story (except for Arun by his dad, and nowhere is this presented as anything but reprehensible behaviour by a father). They are normal people struggling with social injustice and mundane problems, like anyone else. Which brings me to the first of the two instances mentioned, Nulek. While I understand that leaving them at a trash heap (I think we all can agree that getting them out of the way was just a plot thing that needed to happen) might raise some hackles, they are not the only one left there. The – very cismale – driver that Joke impersonated was also left at the landfill, so it is maybe not all that symbolic? Especially because Nulek and Arun's other subordinate Pharao get their comeuppance later on when they get their wonderfully petty revenge on their fallen boss. They have gained agency, rightfully enjoy their upper hand and are again not being ridiculed by the narrative.

And now P' Oh, played by the wonderful P'Jennie. I am horribly saddened by her senseless death, angry and frustrated, because it was so preventable and unfair, but her being Trans is not the most important part here IMO. She was trying, she was struggling, she was failing, she was succeeding, she was funny and sassy and beautiful and a smart businesswoman, and she was the only character apart from the mains, Toi Ting and Ama (who were not spared, either), whose death would send a big enough shockwave through the community to finally rattle them into fighting back  (but also leave the mains able to function and not utterly paralyse them in grief). That's why neither Toi Ting's dad nor Tattoo's mom were viable options. P'Oh was respected and liked in her community. Having her die was dark as fuck, but narratively speaking IMO necessary, and she didn't die because she was Trans. She died because she was the only character whose death would have the right amount of repercussions. So I cannot agree with the other poster that killing her was "shitting on Trans women". Really not.

Thirdly, we have to leave the show and look beyond, behind the camera. These people are longtime collaborators and by all accounts great friends and business partners. P'Jennie is a star who has written lakorn and BL history with her roles. There is nothing but love and respect for her from the makers of the show, you can be sure of that. And I would really like to hear her speak about her character and her role here. And Nuleks actor P'Saran and their friend Pharao have been collaborating with War, Yin and their managers since the first En of Love Anthology in 2019/20. YWPBs managers P'Go and P'Aun themselves can be read as femme. YWPBs work environment and the people they choose to collaborate with seem to be progressive, inclusive, diverse and definititely neither cisheteronormative nor tone-deaf to social issues, as we can see in all their works and public presence. Even more so in War and Yin themselves and in what they choose to say, do and stand for publicly. Are they all perfect? No (who is?), but it seems to me that they are trying really hard to do what's right.

So while I of course understand why someone could be triggered, angry and disappointed at what they see as yet another instance of a Trans character being treated unfairly, I would argue that here this anger might be misdirected and this reading neither does justice to the characters, the narrative, the actors and makers of this show nor to the very real issues Trans and genderqueer people still face in Thailand and around the world.

If you made it this far, thank you for reading my essay/rant and I would be extremely interested in what you have to say in return!

[time-is-restored]

by the way this is not gonna do the subject NEARLY enough justice BUT i do really wish there was more keeley appreciation in the main tags... like not only is she an Extremely explicit parallel for ted, but she's also at the heart of SO much of the show's themes - and you'd never know it from reading most of the meta that goes around!

[content warnings for sexism, sexual harassment, Locker Room Talk™]

okay, so like, in no particular order, here some of the criminally underrated + under-explored things we know abt keeley jones:

she has an almost identical social strategy to ted: being earnestly, and oftentimes defiantly herself, regardless of what assumptions it pushes other people to make abt her (i.e.: her description in the pilot, 'used to having her book judged by its cover'). and then, in spite of the ppl around her belittling her/writing her off, she STILL approaches them w genuine intent to connect + get to know them.

i think it was an EXTREMELY deliberate choice in episode 3 for both keeley and ted to give rebecca 'a compliment she's never heard before'. they're not merely skating by on small talk or doing the bare minimum to show their appreciation for killing the photo (which rebecca would be prepared for), they're subverting her expectations by going for genuine (if bemusing) compliments.

then ofc w keeley's s3 arc, you can see how she's trying (and slowly succeeding, judging by that nervous worker guy's attempts to start joking around with her) to get her PR firm's culture to the same, easy-going, more-friends-than-coworkers vibe of richmond. she even specifically asks ted for advice (and, again, i think its relevant that the advice he gives refers to his most effective team building moment - the ghost banishing ceremony). it's very important to her that ppl feel comfortable in her presence, and we can see her getting genuinely distressed whenever she struggles with this.

she says EXPLICITLY in that one exchange w sassy + rebecca that she freaks out whenever she thinks she's being abandoned - she delivers it like a joke, but she's visibly off-kilter and nervous while she says it, apparently still coming down from the anxiety of thinking she'd been ditched. and again, after the gala when she goes to (presmably) get back together with jamie, she says outright that she really struggles to ever break up with people - even people she's no longer interested in, like jamie! - because she second guesses her own judgement so much. on an adjacent note, imo the melt down she has when roy was crowding her was only as abrupt + extreme as it was because she had been repressing her feelings about it for so long. which is SO interesting in the context of her being one of the most upfront and outspoken characters in the show!!!! like. she literally contains multitudes!

and, also, while i do think there's some genuine critical analysis to be done abt the normalisation of what is, essentially, sexual harassment at richmond (it's... extremely uncomfortable to go on such a long tangent about how attractive a stranger's boobs are, even if ur also a woman), i think keeley's active flirtation + general horny-on-main behaviour is ALSO extremely under-explored. bc, in the context of her being a WAG, and also a model, keeley recieves completely unprompted + unwarranted comments abt her body all day every day. when sassy told her that her ex-husband used to masturbate to her photos, she's hardly shell shocked. it's pretty clear that that's something she's used to being known for, and being told about in gratuitous detail. in this context, you can really see how the way she leans in to flirtation, and talking about sex and the hotness of various ppl around her (ie: her entrance in the pilot, making a show + joke out of how she must Obviously want to see all of the footballers naked), is her way of pushing back against the way others don't respect HER boundaries. ie: 'if my body's fair game for everyone to talk about + sexualise, so is theirs!'. it's an extremely interesting coping mechanism, especially in the context of it leading to her oftentimes perpetuating the cycle of harassment herself. and then there's also how the locker room culture OF richmond involves a significant amt of talking about sex, past partners, etc - since she spends so much time in that environment, you can pretty clearly see how that'd influence her decision to go with the current, rather than against.

AND OFC. HOW could i get this far w/o talking about the sheer narrative weight that's given to her relationship with rebecca!!! not only is she arguably the first character to befriend rebecca (beating ted out by several episodes, at least by my count), she is ALSO the reason that rebecca ever tells ted the truth ('it would change how i feel about you'!!!!!!! AGH!!!!), and honestly i think keeley's disappointment in her is what leads her to finally accept that. sabotaging richmond is a cruel thing to do and she doesn't want to do it anymore! like. keeley's unabashed admiration of + love for rebecca, and rebecca's eventual reciprocation is quite literally the driving force for both of their arcs ('thank you for teaching this panda how to be a lion'!!!!!) and i just!!! i care them!!!!!!!!!!!!

tldr; keeley jones is a blorbo of absolutely apocalyptic proportions PLEASE let her into ur heart the next time ur writing analysis + meta....

[bonzos-number-1-fan]

TMAGP 18 Thoughts: Dead Letters

Another really great episode. Feels like the show has hit its stride now and it just keeps getting better and better IMO. I can't say I entirely get the episode's title though. This one feels fairly strained to me and I feel like it must be because I'm missing something obvious.

Spoilers for episode 18, and some lightly implied spoilers for TMA, below the cut.

Teddy and Alice being Teddy and Alice isn't something I have a huge amount to say. I'm never 100% sure how you're meant to read these two. Teddy having his own little story in the background is interesting though because the framing of this implies he's very important to the narrative. His leaving is the instigation for two of our main characters to be able to join the OIAR, his leaving party is the opening scene of the show, and every time he's been in it since something about him has progressed. It could just be a grounding element so that not every character is wrapped up in it but it seems fairly obvious that his story is going somewhere.

Fun Fact: I've mentioned it before but as it was name dropped, Robert Smirke was an architect for the Royal Mint.

Lena continuing to be very Lena about everything really does warm my heart. She could just be entirely disinterested, distancing herself from the employees for their safety, or other reasons beside. Either way "Oh, is that its name?" is wonderful and she should never change.

This statement was really great. Augustus being back is a massive highlight. Tim Fearon has killed both of his episodes and I want more of him than we're getting. A haunted house narrated by him is really a treat to listen to. The literal contents of the experience we hear narrated back to us isn't something I have too much to say on. It's got some strong Hilltop Road vibes but is at Church Street. Church Street itself doesn't have anything too important to mention about it. Milton Court, however, is interesting. Violet was seemingly the victim of the same thing that killed Drowning Victim a few episodes back, likely [Error]. But what's interesting about the Milton Court Open Space is that it's about 20 miles from where Drowning Victim was. These cases happened 3 days apart which is ample time to cover that distance but it's interesting because it's largely along the path you'd drive if you were coming from Manchester, where the Institute's ruins were, back to London and taking the M40. You'd drive passed Ickenham. I would not be surprised if we see a similar case from early further north along that route. Another thing of note here is the extreme malnutrition. I think a lot of people are going to link this back to Darrien from the last episode but I think it's more obviously a physical symptom of reliving said experience. Violet wandered though a house with no exit until she starved, like how Drowning Victim, well, drowned. No notes otherwise, great incident. Well, "Some figure reaching asking questions in an alley?" is curious phrasing but I won't get to into that.

Alice and Sam's chat directly addressing the contents of the case is something I love to see. Alice is trying her best to bury all that, bless her, but Sam is for sure never letting this drop. It's just great to see this stuff not washing over them now and it's all becoming more and more relevant. Although it does bring into question why Augustus read this one out. Chester seems to read things that nudge people to act a certain way but this one seemed almost cruel. Like Augustus was trying to get under Alice's skin. In any case its hard to find a thread between this and Taking Notes, at least as far as "motivation" goes.

Oh Gwen. Poor, poor Gwen. Finally opens up about her truly fucking awful experiences and Sam laughs in her face about it. To be fair to Sam leading with Mr. Bonzo is a perfect wind up and I would've laughed too. We all would've laughed if our co-worker said that. To be fair to Gwen, Mr. Bonzo has traumatised the shit out of her and who else is there to really lead with? And as always Anusia killed it here. What a glorious F-bomb too.

Backing up just a little bit, there is this quote during that interaction:

GWEN In the cases, you know how there are often things or places or people or whatever who… aren’t right? Who seem to be causing all the awful things to happen.

Which is fairly interesting if you've been reading theories. Specially about what CAT# means. The most common theory by far is "Person/Place/Object". Meaning that CAT1 indicates a supernatural person in the incident, CAT2 a place, etc. Now, I have written an essay all about this subject entitled "Putting the CAT# Back in the Bag: The Flaws With Person/Place/Object". So, y'know, I don't buy it. Gwen mentioning it now feels like a red herring too given how early it is. Obviously that feeling is rooted in my current belief about said theory. If I don't think it holds water I won't think this is a clue about that. But it's not just that. I think this is too early from a narrative stand point, CAT# standing for those things pointless from a narrative standpoint, and if Gwen has settled on those three things it's not much of a stretch to link it back the the case numbers and part of the point of them is they're inscrutable to everyone there.

Because all of the above isn't enough for this already stellar episode we meet two new characters. Georgie and Jack. Both at long last as they've both come up before. It's hard to talk about this without getting into TMA stuff. I'll try to be light on TMA spoilers but Celia and Georgie have history. Now, unlike with Celia, this very much seems like TMP's version of Georgie. She's a conspiracy theorist instead of a ghost hunt, she's paranoid instead of fearless, and she seems to know as little about Celia as you'd expect. The conspiracy angle is also really clever. TMA was very much just about supernatural encounters but TMP has the cast working for the government. So Georgie has stayed fairly consistent in this regard it's just the shows themes that changed. Celia finding Georgie makes a lot of sense to me though. Their history makes her a good touchstone here and as she's still podcasting about strange things it's a good cover as any. However whatever is happening with Celia is clearly getting worse and she's not lying about it well.

GEORGIE Celia, I’m saying you don’t need to lie to me. CELIA I’m not! [zzzzzt]

Sure you're not, Celia. Sure you're not.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incident/CAT#R#DPHW Master Sheet and Terminology Sheet

DPHW Theory: 2374 not much to explain on this one I don't think. Spooky house that you can't escape from gets you spooky house you can't escape from numbers.

CAT# Theory: CAT1 is semi-interesting for the theory I think it definitely isn't (see here). Because for that theory to remain consistent corpses end up as objects. Which you'd think would put this in CAT3 if assessors were applying those themselves, and if they aren't all headers of this type being people seems very farfetched when we've seem objects that compel already.

R# Theory: C seems reasonably to me. Having a spooky memory and talking about it seems like the sort of thing no one would care about.

Header talk: Memory (Derelict) -/- Compulsion. Two interesting things here. Firstly, the section being Memory implies that this experience actually happened. Either to Violet or someone else. It could be a ham-fisted section choice if there isn't anything for hallucinatory experiences of this nature but I'd assume there must be. This system is so specific and as that would be a large oversight it seems unlikely that it isn't there. But it's hard to say how much any given assessor knows about what they're picking. Misfiles are always possible. The subsection is the other interesting thing. Derelict is such a specific subsection here that Memory must have 100s of them.

[icharchivist]

Some of us were delusional enough to hope that Sarya was writing a story and not actually writing down real events! But tbh I kinda agreed with the murderer about the attitudes of the detectives. It threw me off, the way they acted. I've read my fair share of mystery and while there's often someone who's blatantly an asshole, the detectives usually aren't so blasé about people dying.

DFKLJDLFKDJ y'know what fair enough, we can be in denial all we want.

And mhmm personally i agree with the murderer regarding Edgar in particular, but for the detectives it's a person-by-person thing. And i think like, unless they're super happy for the crimes, as long as they solve the crimes, what's the harm in that?

All the detective knew that "something" was going to happen in the mansion so originally when they found the first corpse, it could have easily been a set up of some kind, a game. I think it's fair that none of them really reacted strongly knowing that.

After Non and Oui's death is when you can start to judge it and like.... depends on the detective.

Like, reading Luck's journal entry you learn he's so detached from it all because of the brutal death of a friend of his that led him to be pessimistic and refusing to let death get to him as a coping mechanism, while still trying to use his special talent to serve something. He's blasé because he's coping the best he can with a bad situation he's in while also trying to not have his special talent go to waste. Is that really so wrong?

The only one who's attitude was extremely jarring imo was Hercule, because he really just was centering himself in the whole thing. It wasn't about the victims, to him, it was about what made him a great detective.

Everyone else kinda just focused on the case as a case. It wasn't much about the victims but it wasn't for themselves either.

Like don't get me wrong, it's horrible that they come to a point of being so desensitivised to it.

but wouldn't it be normal for people who WORK with death all the time to have an emotional detachment to it, if only to be able to process their own work?

The killer was right about Edgar but i don't think that the fact the detectives themselves were desensitivised should have been a lifesentence.

As long as they're helping people imo it doesn't really matter. What does matter is who are the people willing to twist the truth for entertainment purpose and their own gain. Now that's a whole different beast.

So yeah... yeah.

Can't blame the killer bc he clearly just, ended up resenting everything under the sun -- but imo this is even more of an indication of how True Crimes writers sensationalizing their work ends up with the deshumanization of both the victims and the people who are trying their best to put it to rest. The killer ends up just as much of a person being played by Edgar's sensationalism as anyone else. and that's the real tragedy, imo.

[andichoseyou]

So about the fred/rusty situation

Imo you should have a direct conversation with fred where you explain why that behaviour hurts you, and why you dont feel comfortable hanging out with him if he keeps dating rusty

Chances are fred doesnt actually realize the extent of the hurt hes causing. If after that conversation he keeps seeing rusty as normal, take some distance from him

hi! thanks for your input!

the thing is, we reached out a couple days after the initial incident with antisemitism happened. we all got together and told fred that we were all extremely uncomfortable and felt unsafe around someone like rusty. he did tell us he had no idea we felt that way and felt bad that he didn't realize how uncomfortable we were, but then it was like two weeks of radio silence from him. we continued to see fred every now and then, but it was always tense and awkward because he didn't say anything about it. we then brought it up again because we knew he was still seeing rusty and we had to say something, because we were all still so confused why he would want to even be with someone like that. he says he doesn't feel it's fair that we expected him to break up, which i could see. we have now established boundaries and asked for space, because even after over-explaining WHY we think rusty isn't a good person and is very blatantly racist, he continues to see him and not say anything about it. at this point, i am more listening to what the poc in my friend group have to say and how they feel being friends with someone who is dating a racist. fred asked us to hang out tonight but at this point none of us really see the point in doing that, it's only been a week since our last talk and he has done nothing to change his or rusty's behavior. i just feel like he's going to try to brush everything under the rug AGAIN and this is something that all of us are not willing to compromise on. if fred is okay dating someone like that, fine. but he can't expect us to be okay with it, you know?

[punkscowardschampions]

Rio & Buster Pt.2

Buster: [going into SUCH graphic detail of all the possible ways he could fuck her next year as though they are all definite things he is going to do no matter what even though some of them are ridiculous and OTT in front of the fam because that’s y’all’s kink]

Rio: [moving a hand down to shamelessly feel him, making him fuck up against your palm instead ‘they’d wanna see us happy’ as if that means all the things you just described can definitely happen because we desperately want them to]

Buster: [‘you’re the favourite, and I don’t know anyone who deserves it more’ she is a princess and fam fave, end of story]

Rio: [‘I wanna be your favourite’ because we all remember ‘let me earn that’]

Buster: [‘What else is Christmas for?’ because yeah, people are literally bribing other people with presents so they can be the faves, you’re not wrong, like, go ahead gal]

Rio: [very casually unzipping and then pushing down his trousers ‘it’s only fair’ because she’s always in skirts and dresses basically so she only has the thin layer of clothes between the sensation always, like get into it, babe, initiating that contact again, and you’re going to feel the heat and wetness now]

Buster: [going completely feral for this, how could he not]

Rio: [we’re likewise shook at how much more we can feel all of you and we are very pleased about it, taking the time to slide up and down you entirely a few times ‘oh, fuck’ because we can’t deal]

Buster: [‘Don’t stop’ even if someone literally walked in on this scene rn being the vibe because he likewise can’t deal]

Rio: [‘never’ as if it’s the most ridiculous suggestion we ever would or could ‘this feels so-’ being cut off by your own involuntary sounds to how it feels]

Buster: [meanwhile he’s gonna accidentally break something in this hiding place if he doesn’t calm down, there has been too much tension for too long]

Rio: [hence we have to break it, even with our rules that only really make sense to us in place ‘you need to cum’ rubbing his shoulders because the literal tension is so palpable in how you’re holding yourself]

Buster: [‘With you, properly’ because you did earlier but you had to hold back so much then]

Rio: [‘the least we are owed is seeing and hearing each other’ like we’re already not tasting it or feeling it etc, like the fam are being very unreasonable, imo, but shifting our top half away slightly so he has that better view of us instead of being extremely squashed up]

Buster: [Really taking a moment to run his hands over her body now that it isn’t so closely pressed against him and she isn’t ever wearing as many layers as this boy does and is because he loves a piece of knitwear and what else is xmas truly for lol]

Rio: [put your hand under this knitwear so you can feel his abs and pecs, plus the position will push your tits together so win win, just perving on him like you have always wanted to]

Buster: [in my opinion you deserve this, lads, you’ve barely touched each other in your lives up to now, enjoy yourselves]

Rio: [the restraint we’ve shown to get to 18 lmao, you’re welcome]

Buster: [I love that it’s gone from feral energy of we don’t have time to waste to being so slow and intense with the thrusts he’s doing as you just touch each other’s bodies and make dramatic eye contact]

Rio: [fr, truly taking our time now like and what ‘how could I not want you, related or otherwise’ like this is only natural when you look like this]

Buster: [‘They’re wrong, I’m right, you only have to listen to me from now on’ a bit toxic of you if you were her flop bf but thankfully you’re you and not actually trying to isolate her from the entire fam]

Rio: [‘yes, baby’ nodding so enthusiastically because we’re down]

Buster: [‘I know what’s best for you’ again would sound like a huge red flag but we’re doing it a saucy daddy manner so everyone shh]

Rio: [‘and you wanna give me what I deserve?’]

Buster: [‘Not like a wish that may or may not come true, I’m going to give you everything, whatever it takes, it’ll be a reality’]

Rio: [‘I need you’ becoming more feral with our movements again because that’s everything ‘you can have all of me’]

Buster: [‘I will have you, I’ll find a way’ because he is determined to problem solve this and get y’all to the endgame you want, everyone else be damned soz, he’s never been told no before and he’s not gonna start now]

Rio: [pulling your knickers to the side teasingly but not enough that anything accidentally happens, like it’s that easy]

Buster: [when you do a little lol and it’s so breathless and indecent and hot]

Rio: [😍 ‘you make me so wet all the time’ blurted out because we love you tbh]

Buster: [‘I can’t wait to kiss you at new year’s’ blurting this out because he’s just decided it’s gonna happen because he loves her too tbh, excuse you sir giving jemily no say in this]

Rio: [when you didn’t expect to hear that so you are overwhelmed and overjoyed, covering your own mouth so the noises you make are not full volume but you’re fully LOOKING at him still so it’s very obvious how buzzing you are]

Buster: [have to love that she’s so mutually enthusiastic about this ‘you promise you won’t do that-’ pausing to touch her bitten mouth again so she knows what you mean ‘again, yeah?’ like I can’t kiss you senseless if it’s gonna hurt you so much, please give it time to heal between now and then]

Rio: [nod again ‘I’ll kiss you like it’s only happened once before’ meaning I’ll be gentle and neither of us will be bitten ‘I promise’ 

😇]

Buster: [‘You’ll be a good girl and I’ll treat you like one’ so matter of factly like that isn’t gonna make you both feel feral rn]

Rio: [‘do good girls act like this?’ because we are predictably so feral at this point]

Buster: [‘they act how I want them to’ like so yes because so here for it and that’s blatant by how feral he’s being in response]

Rio: [‘this is what you want’ as a statement because we all know that for sure]

Buster: [‘I want you to be able to lose control’ because having to hold back because of this fam is the worst, excuse you guys]

Rio: [‘We have’ because there’s no going back from this really, caught or otherwise, y’all know what’s happening here has to be seen through ‘New Years, no one is checking’ because it is way more of a party atmosphere]

Buster: [‘Not yet’ but said in the tone of there’s so much we haven’t done yet and let’s take a sec to really think about all the things we can and will do when we get a proper chance to ‘New year’s, I leave early if I show up at all’ because he would if he had somewhere better to be, full shade, in the way that nobody was believing he had plans tonight so they really won’t be checking, they’ll think he’s gone]

Rio: [nod because this is the tea and you’re following what he’s saying, even in this state ‘you’re sure your parents aren’t going home?’ like please let this be something that can actually happen]

Buster: [‘I’ll invite you back over if they are’ like it’s fine we’re friends now nobody would bat an eyelid lol, the way you don’t have to say those chelsea parties are utterly feral and y’all could be even more alone because she was at your bday]

Rio: [‘it’s a date’ because fully believing we can do this and fully onboard]

Buster: [‘our second’ close enough to say that against her lips again because likewise]

Rio: [you’ve got to go in to make him and thus yourself cum now because the way we start to press our lips against yours and so nearly do it because so about these seconds]

Buster: [agreed because he will end up saying something so extra if you don’t finish up soon, the feelings are too high]

Rio: [hard same, you already do it SO SOON, not today miss ma’am, lose yourself here though in that way]

Buster: [we’ll allow that and not actually have you be caught because you wouldn’t like it in reality the way you do in the fantasy, lads]

Rio: [you do not need that drama right now, it would end y’all, give yourself time to slowly untangle and get sorted somewhat]

Buster: [help her up lowkey because y’all would practically be on the floor how hard you were going]

Rio: [dust him off, only half a pisstake ‘you can go clean yourself up, I won’t take it personally this time’]

Buster: [a smile for the way that drama feels like forever ago now that you’ve just done what you did]

Rio: [well done for not running away this time either of y’all, even if you still can’t entirely believe it]

Buster: [‘I won’t take it too personally you’re telling me to go’ but jokingly we’re not starting more beef]

Rio: [‘It’s been a bit longer than a minute’ as jokingly but with a half real sad face because you have been long enough if anyone did wanna, now would be the time they’d come looking where either of you had got to]

Buster: [‘quite embarrassing if not’ because nobody wants to cum that immediately lol, but taking her wrist when he sees her lil sad face and doing his usual stroking of it]

Rio: [laugh ‘if that was your problem, did pick a girl who can’t tell’ like clever tbh but immediately playing with his fingers when he’s holding your wrist, being soft af ‘did you have an okay day?’ throwback]

Buster: [‘What did I say last time you asked me that?’ he remembers and he knows she does too, looking at her with the biggest hearteyes rn truly]

Rio: [return those hearteyes with a big smile because we do remember and we’re happy af, no one can ruin it, not even Nancy the hot mess express]

Buster: [actually do leave get out though or you never will, boy, and you can be doing even bigger heart eyes and an even bigger smile when you do]

Rio: [go back into the party lads and do some hanging out]

Buster: [you’ll be in a better mood for it anyways, we don’t need any more fam arguments]

Rio: [Nancy probably needs a nap, it’s fine lmao]

Buster: [my boo says gtfo you big baby, but yeah, avoid her there’d be enough other less annoying peeps about who haven’t gone home yet]

Rio: [it’ll be winding up soon enough, y’all got homes to go to people, get your dinner leftovers though]

Buster: [that’s a good shout, you’ve deffo worked up an appetite being that feral, sit away from each other though, we know how flirty y’all get around food and we remember how extra you got around that table when there were cards and games going on]

Rio: [you need to keep your distance despite not wanting to or you’ll just start again, at least the cali fam needs to walk home so they’ll have to all go as a big group for safety]

Buster: [such a trek for y’all, soz guys]

Rio: [you could probably camp here in the pub but you wouldn’t mind doing the walk, well, cali and the kids who aren’t drunk won’t mind lmao]

Buster: [Grace will, lord knows what festive fit she’s rocking]

Rio: [hope you brought walking shoes hun]

Buster: [we probably shouldn’t let y’all talk again, should we?]

Rio: [you’ll probably wanna say goodbye whoever’s fam is leaving first]

Buster: [I feel like it’s definitely baze, the antisocial bastards, despite the long af cali trek, do we wanna do in person or is that too dangerous, always the question lol]

Rio: [hmm, maybe you can say bye in person buy in front of everyone so not properly how you would wish, ‘cos you can’t just wander off for a private goodbye lol]

Rio: I’ll miss you

Buster: [a good way to get out of your pretending you hate each other era as far as the fam are concerned though, so that’s something]

Buster: I’ll see you soon though

Rio: Still true

Buster: It’s still Christmas, you can’t be upset

Rio: Is that a rule?

Buster: For you, I won’t pretend to care if Grace cries all the way home

Rio: Mean

Rio: it would also be lowkey very annoying if she did

Buster: You’d get more sympathy out of me if my sister wasn’t much older and yet even more annoying

Rio: 😣🥺 fine

Buster: And you can’t force me to miss you by making that face, you know

Rio: Ugh, you’re so 🥶

Buster: Good, my career goals have been set in stone for too long to change now 

Rio: 😏 God forbid

Buster: I forbid it, yeah

Rio: It’s a good thing my nan doesn’t have to deal with you, talk like that

Buster: Don’t worry, I’ve got an extensive vocabulary, I’d be able to think of something to say that’d talk her round too

Rio: It’s not hard, if you’re a male 🙄

Buster: Noted

Rio: Not that that’s something you need to worry about, she doesn’t mix with our scummy side

Buster: You should introduce her to Nance, she hates lowering herself to socialising outside of Chelsea’s confines

Rio: A match made in Heaven doesn’t spring to mind

Buster: You can say hell, I’ll smooth things over if it gets you in trouble

Rio: I couldn’t possibly

Buster: Unless I dare you

Rio: Doesn’t sound like something you would do

Buster: There’s a first time for everything, babe

Rio: I remember

Buster: Don’t forget

Rio: You said it wasn’t long, I won’t, probably

Buster: Well, maybe you can forget I said that

Rio: It’s stupid how long a week is going to feel, when I never see you usually

Buster: It’d be stupid if I didn’t see you before New Year’s Eve when we’re both in Dublin for longer than we’re in the same city usually

Rio: You will?

Buster: Why wouldn’t I?

Rio: You might have people you wanna visit here

Buster: I have time to see any and everyone I might want to

Rio: Okay, well, obviously I’ll make time

Buster: I’m obviously going to prioritise you, it’s okay

Rio: 😳

Rio: I saw my friends last night, before you all got here, so

Rio: it’s just if my dad and grandma want to see us and [flop boyf] likewise

Buster: [Tell her your schedule, whatever it may be, I doubt you have loads of friends here because you don’t spend much time in Dublin atm but there’s bound to be some stuff you’re busy with because you’re just that bitch, even if it’s like going to box at the gym where this entire rest of this fam would, things like that]

Rio: Where should we go

Buster: What do you want to do?

Rio: be with you

Buster: Okay, I’ll organise another surprise

Rio: If you’re not careful I’ll start to feel really spoiled

Buster: You couldn’t possibly be overindulged, especially not by me when I haven’t always treated you like I should’ve

Rio: Should’ve would definitely be interrogated but 

Rio: I prefer how we are now, how we’re gonna be

Buster: You won’t hear any arguments from me

Rio: Indulging me can only be a good thing for you too

Buster: I don’t have any regrets about doing so

Rio: I can tell you like it

Rio: I just wish I could show you properly how much I do too

Buster: You will, you’ll be able to show me whatever you want

Rio: I need to, at this point, everyone will have to get out the way and mind their business

Buster: I need you to, I’ve never had to wait this long for anything before

Rio: I wish I could preach to you about the virtues of patience but I’m not feeling capable without being a total hypocrite right now

Rio: worth the wait, I can still confirm

Buster: Patience isn’t a virtue, it’s a necessary evil, this once

Rio: hmm, I’m not so sure

Rio: me being another girl in a long line to give you exactly what you want isn’t winning me any points, virtuous or otherwise but that can’t be helped

Buster: You can be sure that none of them give me exactly what I want, it’s an impossible task for any girl but you

Rio: It’s like nothing I’ve experienced either, in a way that makes that not a sufficient description at all

Buster: Thank Christ we don’t have to try and explain it

Rio: Seriously

Rio: though it should be obvious why I want you

Buster: It is

Rio: yeah?

Buster: To me anyway, everyone else only sees what isn’t going to keep them awake at night trying to decide how or when they should intervene

Rio: I can handle it

Buster: If I doubted that we wouldn’t be having this convo, or have had any others as incriminating

Rio: That makes me sad to think about, you having no one to play with

Buster: Don’t be, it’s in the past

Buster: and it’s against the rules until Boxing day, remember

Rio: Oh yeah, sorry

Rio: there’s no one else I would do this with, you know that, right

Buster: I know

Rio: even if I had loads of stupidly hot cousins

Buster: I can handle being the hottest

Rio: You don’t exactly have competition, babe

Rio: Mine are all girls or Ollie, bless him

Buster: I wouldn’t have competition in any scenario, I don’t

Rio: I know, I just said

Rio: it’s not like… a fetish, not in general

Buster: The more you try and defend that it isn’t, the more it sounds like a fetish you have

Rio: Shh

Buster: I’d say make me but you’re probably too busy imagining more hot cousins you wish you had

Rio: You are so rude, I was trying to give you a compliment and now you’ve made it sound like I have a ranking list of every male in this family 

Buster: You know how glad I am that you’ve stopped giving out purely backhanded ones

Rio: I never did 😏

Rio: you’re very fussy

Buster: The alternative is easy to please

Rio: which then implies I’m not up to the challenge else, no, tah

Buster: So, try again and give me a compliment

Rio: The biggest compliment is that I want you, only you right now and I can’t think about anything else

Buster: And an even bigger compliment is that I feel the same

Rio: does it have to be bigger 

Buster: Alright, equally big

Rio: Wouldn’t wanna sound like you have a complex, babe

Buster: It’s fine, like you said, who could you tell

Rio: You’re such a dick 🤣

Buster: I’d be your best friend right now if that was an option

Rio: You should be, you’re a really good friend to have

Buster: I miss you

Rio: You can admit it was the 🥺 now, I won’t tell

Rio: I miss you even more, the further away you’ve got

Buster: Your eyes do play a part in it, yeah

Rio: I like it when you tell me things, you don’t hold back

Buster: Don’t hold back either, not with me

Rio: I don’t need to with you, I’m already realising 

Buster: What took you so long?

Rio: I never wanted to hurt you, or terrify you

Buster: You know me better than that

Rio: You know what I mean

Rio: What if… there were too many what ifs, is the point

Rio: but that was before

Buster: You were scared I’d reject you, but that’s never been a real possibility

Rio: Promise?

Buster: I swear

Rio: I wanna give you exactly what you want, everything

Buster: Being with you is what I want

Rio: It’s happening, before New Year

Buster: [picking a day and a time like I’ll pick you up at 8 vibes because determined that is it going to]

Rio: I’ll be impatiently waiting, since you don’t think it’s a virtue

Buster: Wait so impatiently for me, I honestly can’t think of a bigger or better compliment

Rio: Thank God

Rio: because I already don’t know what to do about it

Buster: Yes you do, the problem is you can’t do it with your entire family walking next to you

Rio: 😖

Rio: if you were here, we could hang back

Buster: I’m not there but I am here

Rio: Are you alone now?

Buster: [a pic like yep]

Rio: why am I not there, fuck

Buster: When you are alone, listen to this

Buster: [just a cute voice note nbd, giving goodnight energy in the way their goodbye in front of everyone was not allowed to]

Rio: when I’m in bed, I will

Buster: I might have to sleep fully clothed, I’m not sure I can take any of them off when they remind me this much of you

Rio: I can still smell you on me, I don’t wanna wash that off either

Buster: [tell her what she smells like to show that you likewise can smell her on you rn too, idk but I’m sure it’s nice]

Rio: you’re perfect, it’s so distracting

Buster: You need the distraction

Rio: I need to be able to touch myself and pretend it’s you, like now

Buster: Empty everything out of your bag, except your phone because you obviously have to keep hold of that, and insist you don’t need any help picking it all up

Rio: [A long enough time that you have performed this charade]

Rio: done

Buster: You’re alone now?

Rio: [a flash selfie because it is dark out here in the middle of nowhere]

Rio: Very

Buster: Nobody looks like that with the flash on

Rio: I do

Buster: Then you have to keep filming yourself, it’s a rule

Rio: Do you know about my other account?

Buster: What other account?

Rio: I’m trying some things out, since I turned 18 and I could, legally

Rio: I don’t think anyone in real life knows yet but it’s only a matter of time

Buster: There’s no reason they’ll find out now that Liam isn’t spending his time stalking you any more

Rio: I don’t know, I’m prepared for if they do, I mean, I’m not going to stop

Buster: If it’s what you want to do, don’t let anyone stop you

Rio: I’m good at it, it pays well and it turns me on

Buster: Exactly, the pros outweigh the con of some people's unwanted opinions

Rio: I know it’ll be bad but, when I can prove how it’s a legitimate way to earn

Rio: It’s not like any of them have to watch my content

Buster: How you look is an asset, you’re just using that to your advantage, all the cunts I go to school with intend to use their overpriced education and parents’ last name to theirs

Rio: Right, we all use what we’ve got, if we’re smart enough

Rio: you get it

Buster: Anyone who doesn’t is either genuinely an idiot or someone who doesn’t have the guts to go after what they want so they feel like shitting on you for doing it will make that better

Rio: You just described my soon-to-be-ex pretty well

Rio: minus the possessive, paranoid and jealous part but yeah

Buster: Well, you know my thoughts on each of your exes

Rio: Don’t worry, I know I’m not thinking about any of them at all right now

Buster: Or ever again

Rio: Make it a rule and I can’t, as if I ever want to

Buster: I’ll make it so your head stays full of me

Rio: That’ll be inspiring 

Buster: Slightly possessive too but he’ll never know

Rio: I like possessive

Rio: he just didn’t do it right

Buster: It doesn’t sound as if he can do anything right

Rio: He didn’t know me, not like you do

Buster: It’s his loss and he’ll be really feeling it soon enough

Rio: You could make me cum and film it for him, that’d get the message across

Buster: Okay

Rio: I don’t mean be in anything, of course

Buster: I’m more than ready for my close-up, babe

Rio: Don’t play with me, future hotshot lawyer 

Buster: You like being played with

Rio: Playing with you might be my new favourite thing to do, yeah

Buster: So let’s send him a message

Rio: Okay

Buster: I can’t believe he’s willing to let you go

Rio: I’m not a good girlfriend, but I am a good friend

Buster: You’d be a good girlfriend if you had a decent boyfriend

Rio: Maybe, there’s never been enough incentive to put them before more important things

Buster: No, they don’t deserve that, or you

Rio: You deserve to know how much I think about you, every time I see you, you’re all I think about for weeks, months

Buster: Tell me what you’re thinking about me right now

Rio: how insanely amazing it would be if you fucked me on film and then I could watch the first time that it happened forever

Buster: We can make it happen, just like how you’re picturing it

Rio: are you picturing it now?

Buster: Vividly

Rio: I’ll send you my other account, if you want

Rio: but I wanna see your reaction in person

Buster: Of course

Rio: 🥰

Buster: Be home already

Rio: You know I live in the middle of nowhere

Rio: I’m going to need to get my own place as soon as I have the proof of my monthly income to get rent

Buster: Where do you want to live?

Buster: [excuse him going on a nerdy little ramble then because property is what baze do so not only would he have picked up some shit from them about it he’d also be aware they could hook her up with somewhere]

Rio: I have to finish school, so not too far but the more central the better for most things, though I can do the work anywhere

Rio: it’s the lack of privacy which has made it interesting so far

Rio: Do you think your parents would help me out like that, for real?

Buster: All it takes to convince them of something is for it not to be total bullshit, which this isn’t

Buster: they’ll see it for what it is, a great idea

Rio: By February, I can prove 3 months wages

Rio: if you float the idea for me, that’d be really good of you

Buster: Consider it done

Rio: I will owe you so big

Buster: I’ll benefit myself from you not living in the middle of nowhere, and finally having some privacy

Rio: True, I will invite you over 

Buster: I’ll bring you a housewarming gift

Rio: you’re so fucking cute, sleepover please

Buster: As long as your mum doesn’t give you a cat for hers

Rio: Are you pretending to be allergic 🤨

Buster: No, but I’ll pretend to be that jealous and possessive if that’ll work

Rio: What if I get lonely?

Buster: Another what if you only had to worry about before

Buster: I won’t let you get lonely

Rio: If you were here right now

Buster: I’ll let you tell me that what if

Rio: I feel shy now

Buster: Are you blushing?

Rio: [send him photographic evidence]

Buster: Jesus

Rio: you know what you do to me, what that makes me wanna do with you

Buster: It feels like weeks or months since I did anything to you

Rio: How was it just one day

Buster: We’ve only had one day but it’s been a long time coming

Rio: I’ve imagined what it would be like with you for so long, since I started

Buster: Me too, but I must seriously have a rich kid imagination after all, because what happened was nothing like I expected

Rio: In what way?

Buster: The intensity, I’ve never experienced it to that level

Rio: Me either, it felt like more than some of the hardcore stuff I’ve done, which shouldn’t be possible 

Buster: Yeah

Rio: I need more of that feeling

Buster: I can’t get enough of it, I feel closer to you than I’ve been to anyone else, but still not as close as I want to be

Rio: You can have everything, no secrets, no games, I want you, so have me

Buster: I told you I’ll have you, how badly I want you, I’ve said all of it

Buster: I need to show you

Rio: Please

Rio: I’ve just got back, I can be wherever you want me to be and alone

Buster: Be in your bed, make it smell like me

Rio: That’s the best idea I’ve ever heard 🥴

Buster: I think of you lying there whenever I’m in mine

Rio: I can imagine how perfect you look when you’re sleeping, it was beyond tempting to get the wrong room at your party, end up next to you instead

Buster: I was as tempted to run into you on the stairs on your way to somewhere else and carry you back to where you should be, with me

Rio: I didn’t want to talk to anyone else there, just you

Buster: What they think you want to hear isn’t what I know you do

Rio: You always say the right thing but you mean it too, that’s why I like you so much

Buster: I couldn’t look at you and say something I don’t mean

Buster: it’d be worse than blasphemy 

Rio: I think you could make me believe in some sort of God, you were made for me, you’re exactly what I want

Buster: I’ll go to church with you, make a believer out of everybody

Rio: I should be on my knees at your feet, that’s what devotion looks like

Buster: I’ll have to take your word for it, that’s as much understanding as I have about faith

Rio: I’ll show you, you won’t be able to deny I’m not from this Earth when you get to feel me from the inside

Buster: I won’t be able to deny you’re made for me

Rio: I need to be back on your lap, in church, but you need to be deep inside me this time

Buster: Fuck waiting until next Christmas, we’ll start a new religious holiday

Rio: all about us, how perfect we fit

Buster: I could write a really long book about it, definitely

Rio: I’ll learn it and recite your rules by heart, you’ll like that

Buster: You’re making it impossible for me not to be the one on my knees for you

Rio: I’m your favourite

Buster: You know what you are and do to me

Rio: It’s mutual, I’d be terrified if I felt this for anyone else

Buster: You can’t and neither can I

Rio: no, it’s you

Buster: Us, nothing else works because it isn’t supposed to

Rio: I’ll take care of you like you take care of me, nobody else can take your place

Buster: It’s only fair, they don’t put in the effort I will

Rio: what’s fair is you can have me whenever you need

Buster: You’re too gracious, it doesn’t seem real that anyone’s heart is that big

Rio: You deserve it, you always protect me and care about me

Buster: It’s always been my instinct and I’ve been taught to trust those

Rio: I appreciate it, a lot

Buster: I appreciate you, remember

Rio: Yes but if I cry that’s like being sad so I can’t even think about it too much

Buster: Where’s the napkin? You could dry your tears on the other side, I promise not to be mad

Rio: I’m keeping it much safer than that

Rio: I could use so many things before I’d risk smudging it

Buster: No risk, no reward

Buster: you need it close to you, touching you until I can

Rio: [go find this napkin from your hiding spot and take a pic]

Buster: [obvs do a ‘good girl’ voice note because it makes her feral]

Rio: I only behave for you

Buster: Yeah, you’re gonna tell [flop bf] to fuck off, aren’t you?

Rio: yes, he doesn’t appreciate me

Buster: Say you’re not his anymore

Rio: I was never his

Buster: Keep practising over and over, everything you need to make sure he knows

Rio: He’ll know that I was thinking about you when I fucked him

Buster: And he’ll see me fuck you

Rio: I’ll be fully yours

Buster: You can be fully present, you’ll never have to try and lose yourself in your thoughts again

Rio: It’s not just a fantasy, you’re real and you wanna give me everything I deserve

Buster: Our real lives actually being lived how we want them to be

Rio: Buster

Buster: Rio

Rio: stay with me

Buster: I’m not going anywhere

Rio: Fuck

Buster: I’ll keep you safe and happy

Rio: You’re so damn good 

Buster: You deserve to always feel this good

Rio: Too bad about Christmas wishes 💔

Buster: I’ll grant every one of your wishes, I told you, whatever day it is

Rio: You’ll kill me 🥺

Buster: Pulling that face will kill me first

Rio: [send him a video of you doing that because so serious about being dead ourselves]

Buster: [a reaction back because it’s likewise no joke how much that gets to him, we all know it]

Rio: That is extremely incriminating 😍

Buster: Don’t send it to [flop bf], however tempted you are

Rio: Just for me

Rio: he’ll get what he gets, it’s not about him

Buster: And he’s lucky he isn’t getting beaten up after ruining your birthday

Rio: He ruined our plans but you still managed to make it special for me

Buster: You’ll love [wherever this trip is to]

Rio: I’m beyond excited

Buster: When are you going?

Rio: I don’t even know, I could always skip the first week back at school, it wouldn’t matter

Buster: I could never officially condone that, but unofficially, as it’s our secret

Rio: You are such a goody goody 😌

Buster: You know that’s not true

Rio: Nah, you’re better than good

Buster: I wouldn’t get caught if I came with you

Rio: Is that a possibility?

Buster: I’d never say it unless I was certain it was

Rio: Imagine spending a full [however long it is] just us 

Buster: [Do and ramble about it, not in a purely saucy way though obvs you’re thinking that but you’re also a nerd who’d wanna teach her to ski and plan loads of fun boujee stuff]

Rio: We could go before school starts again but is that short notice to make up an excuse to your family

Rio: I want it so bad now

Buster: I thrive under pressure, I could think of something right now if the idea of spending [however many days] alone with you and how eager you are to go wasn’t so distracting

Rio: I would apologize but how eager I am is something you’d be better getting used to, honestly

Rio: unless you plan on changing too, which I would hate so don’t

Buster: I’ll continue to improve but don’t worry, you’ll love it

Rio: I am not the type of girl who would try to get in your way

Buster: Of course you’re not, you’re the opposite type of girl

Rio: I love seeing you win

Buster: Come and watch me

Rio: Do I have to promise not to be distracting? 😫

Buster: I’d be setting you up to lose if I insisted on that promise

Rio: I’d try very, very hard for you but

Buster: I’ll try as hard to get used to how much of my attention you’ll effortlessly divert purely by being in the crowd for me

Rio: Good thing you’re as talented because I’d hate to see you get hurt

Buster: I can promise you aren’t ever going to have to, with no 😫 necessary, yeah

Rio: 🤤🤤🤤🤤 oh, okay

Rio: You’re the best, you need your own personal cheerleader and it has to be me, no one else will do a good enough job 

Buster: You’re the best, and you’re right, I need you there

Rio: I’ll be there

Rio: keeping the drooling to a minimum, swear

Buster: Save it until I’ve got a clearer view of you, at least

Rio: I can’t handle how you look at me

Buster: I’m not looking at you now

Rio: You wanna be?

Buster: Can you handle it?

Rio: If I get to see you

Buster: I miss being able to make eye contact with you

Rio: [facetime this boy]

Buster: [just immediately the most dramatic LOOK of all time]

Rio: [a dramatic but not at all fake noise in response like oh, maybe I cannot handle that but we’re not looking away because we must also LOOK at you, however red we are]

Buster: [doing a cocky smile at the noise and the blush as if he has any more chill remotely and that’s obvious by the !! eye contact being maintained once he’s fully checked said blush out]

Rio: [‘I feel like a kid’ we’re kind of whispering but loud enough you can hear us still obviously, just being careful, ‘cos it’s clearly been a minute since any boy had us feeling any type of giddy, never mind this level ever]

Buster: [getting under the covers the way kids do when they late night read with a torch in every movie or show ever like that’s what she means even though he knows damn well because hard same ‘I feel like I’ve been doing lines all night’ also whispered, obvs because none of the cali fam can be hearing and recognising his voice however innocent this is rn thank you, we all see what you’re saying, boy, cos you didn’t take any coke but your heart is going v fast atm etc etc]

Rio: [do the same to give the sleepover vibes, smiling at him because he’s so cute ‘rude of you not to share the love’ as if you genuinely were but we know you weren’t because when would you have had the time when we’re keeping such a close eye lmao ‘coke has no stamina anyway, not a favourable comparison’ like you were much better]

Buster: [his amused and adorable little face because she’s funny and cute herself ‘like I’ve been drinking [and namedropping the cocktails and wine from their date moment] then’]

Rio: [nod happily like much better ‘I didn’t drop my present, by the way’ leaving that there for a sec before realizing you need to elaborate slightly ‘it was in my bag, you told me to empty it earlier’ because we love everything you give us and look after them well, running the napkin between your fingers absentmindedly as you speak]

Buster: [a nod because he gets it ‘you’re too smart for that’ like obvs you would never, that’s more of a clumsy Grace move, soz gal but it is, and I love that he genuinely thinks they are intellectually on the same level as each other despite his fancy school and uni goals, watching that napkin move not at all absentmindedly because it’s a captivating visual and we love to see it]

Rio: [we love it because it’s clearly not bullshit that you don’t really believe but think sounds nice to say, once we notice you watching us, being more deliberate, aka undeniably saucy, with how we’re moving this napkin over our body]

Buster: [when his breathing changes so slightly but in a not at all subtle way because obvs into it and shamelessly will STARE at this]

Rio: [pushing your dress down to around your waist, keeping your bra on right now though ‘you okay?’ making EYE CONTACT again because even if we’re feigning a casual not-paying-attention vibe, it is not the tea and we’re noting all your reactions]

Buster: [my boo says oi missy don’t you be revealing the pierced nips, they’re a surprise for st paddy’s day antics and she’s so real for that ‘it still isn’t the word’ because okay never is with y’all but especially rn when everything is so new and !!]

Rio: [‘I’m having trouble thinking of any others’ like I know but cut me some slack, boy ‘your name is the only one that’s coming through clear’]

Buster: [‘You can say it’ like that isn’t a dangerous thing to do and encourage]

Rio: [peeking out from your covers like can I though but we’re INTO the danger, obviously]

Buster: [‘just for me’ like v quiet will be totally FINE]

Rio: [‘It’d be okay if I got off to the thought of you, right? Everyone has fantasies’ like no one knows we’re actually going there because who does heheh]

Buster: [‘Who hasn’t, yeah?’ oh that cheeky ego, it’s a good job you are actually cute ‘think of it like that’ not him lowkey trying to make her jealous and possessive and/or pouty with this haha]

Rio: [‘my family, presumably’ like excuse me lmao but we’re too turned on to be mad]

Buster: [a hot lil lol as if this is funny and bants and not true tea that y’all are related and therefore shouldn’t be doing this because he’s obvs in the same mood]

Rio: [‘they must ignore how seriously attractive you are because it’d make them uncomfortable, like you said’ that was re. The onlyfans of it all but you get it]

Buster: [‘they can keep ignoring me’ because he only wants her, thankfully, and because they are doing y’all a massive favour if they don’t see this vibe going on + the unspoken you can’t because you simply cannot and also he isn’t gonna let her from now on]

Rio: [‘give them something to ignore, Buster’ like please touch yourself as we clearly are now]

Buster: [take your top off first sir because she did that and you have not so it’s only fair you get your body out even though it’s nothing she hasn’t seen before because we all remember the birthday body paint, and obvs he doesn’t need any encouragement to be extra and do the most even before she’s basically said put on a show so]

Rio: [‘I can remember how that felt’ doing your best to match what he does like you’re reacting in person ‘I should’ve stayed on your lap all day’]

Buster: [likewise, be in sync with each other as much as you can, it’s the mood ‘we should’ve stayed in this bed’ because the sad times of y’all not getting to go to the baze gaff together, it would’ve been everything and we’re so evil]

Rio: [‘could still be there now’ pouting about this because such a pointless cockblock, fam]

Buster: [get a pillow or something to be her and reenact this because of course, she wanted a show]

Rio: [‘remember how hard you pounded me against that wall?’ as if you need any more encouragement, find your own pillow to straddle here]

Buster: [taking that encouragement and running with it though, meaning she can really hear the sound the bed and this wall is making rn because even though he is moaning her name he has to do it quietly as if it’s being whispered in her ear]

Rio: [‘oh my god’ as quietly but with ALL the feeling because we are dying to actually be there and doing our absolute best to imagine we are, going hard over here too]

Buster: [he’s dying for her to be here rn and imagining it so hard it’d be cringe if wasn’t mutual because literally doing the absolute most with his mouth on this pillow too, he’s that desperate to actually kiss her, soz I’ve cockblocked that for so long hun]

Rio: [s’very rude of us honestly, sorry lads, ‘so much of you hasn’t touched so much of me’ in truly the most 🥺 voice imaginable at this because despite what y’all did the actual contact was still very limited ‘we need it’]

Buster: [mhmm and we could but don’t need to write an essay about why you felt the need to limit it like that at the time whereas rn you could not give less of a fuck, soz that her voice sounding like that is only gonna make him more determined to make it all happen before march which is the opposite of what I need from you actually sir, at least for this moment all you can do is lavish your pillow with the attention you’re letting her know she’ll get whilst making louder but not incriminating noises + the word ‘soon’ being vaguely coherent in there somewhere lol ‘really fucking soon’]

Rio: [lose yourself in what you are doing here, dangerous but here we are, we can’t help it that you may as well be right in front of us in the flesh with how immersed we are, throwing these soons right back at him whenever you hear them and adding your own ‘now’ s too because have to be bratty about how unfair this is]

Buster: [they are both so far gone they are welcome we’re not having y’all be caught because jemily are the only ones who care about that atm not you two feral hoes ‘I’ll be so deep inside you, you’ll have to scream’ as if that’s the ONLY reason you can’t do this now, like I said, don’t pretend you have any consideration for waking the cali fam or yours rn you liar]

Rio: [so welcome you rascally shrews ‘I wanna scream, I want you to break me’ not going along with the pretense at all, thank the Lord your fam is clearly all downstairs still vibing]

Buster: [this boy needing to bite this pillow with how loud he wants to be, thank god you have an expensive bed because if he was poor he’d break it with how hard he’s going]

Rio: [don’t need that sort of drama to have to explain away, excuse us, having to give yourself the smacks you want, which would at least cover his name being said over and over]

Buster: [it’ll be a relief when you both pass out after this, I’m tense at how loud and reckless you are even though we make the rules lol]

Rio: [my boo says stop, get some help]

Buster: [I do, shut it please]

Rio: [at least y’all can exhaust yourselves with this, like you said lmao, perhaps an accidental hang up when you fully lose it]

Buster: [yeah it tracks, soz that in the sober light of day tomorrow you’re gonna have to be like oh shit that all happened including what just did which would very much feel like a fantasy/dream because we are all aware you’ve done shit like that thinking about each other before]

Rio: [mhmm, ah boxing day, what a trip]

Buster: [awks if Rio does have to spend time with shit nan and her god bothering ways, at least Tommy isn’t likely to have another massive fam function for his bday at this point in his life]

Rio: [You would’ve done midnight mass, depends what sort of mood shit nan is in lowkey like does she wanna see y’all, who can say but yeah, Tommy isn’t really that bitch so it’d be more of a do what you like today vibe, basically]

Buster: [plus Rocky wouldn’t be that long dead so I doubt anyone’s really that in the mood]

Rio: [yeah it hasn’t even been a year yet, this xmas would’ve been a subdued affair for everyone else lmao soz]

Buster: [bit disrespectful of you lads actually but]

Rio: [got to live your life huns]

Buster: [speaking of, how do you wanna move forward because even if they were just saying drunk nonsense when they said about seeing each other before nye, at the very least we need to cockblock the night itself and do it in such a way that y’all are ‘fine’ to not see each other for months until march]

Rio: [hmm, okay, literally thinking out loud here but what if Nancy starts shit just because she’s her in Rio’s DMs or in private whatever and it is literally just ‘cos she loves drama but Rio thinks that she knows something, like that’s how it seems, so she’s like no we can’t meet but doesn’t explain the full deets ‘cos she lowkey thinks you’ll go and talk to Nancy and we can’t let that happen]

Buster: [I like it, it’s very real of how Nancy would act and a legit conclusion you would jump to/reaction you would have to thinking she knows something + you’d defs feel like it’s poss/be scared someone could because y’all know you haven’t been subtle]

Rio: [like honestly if she wasn’t so self-absorbed she would’ve/could’ve noticed, like she could even make a dig about you hanging with Buster more than her that she doesn’t realise is too close for comfort and you’re like abort mission, maybe Rio would tell him though, but we just need to remember y’all can’t talk each other ‘round at the end lol]

Buster: [I can literally have him go back to london for nye if we need because if y’all get enough into a freakout, which let’s face it isn’t hard in this situ/he thinks Rio’s changed her mind + got big regrets, he totally would run back there to his comfort zone of all that messy party bs]

Rio: [it tracks]

Buster: [we also do have the shadow of flop bf hanging over her if we need, even if y’all clearly break up in this no man's land after christmas and before nye, that doesn’t mean he can’t still be around also being a dick/wanting her back/whatever else the plot demands]

Rio: [yeah I’m sure he isn’t just going to go away, even though it’s obvious y’all are breaking up, these things can drag]

Buster: [we’ll do our best to get you in back in the mindset we need you to be in for st paddys, I have faith in us that we won’t have to rewrite that entire convo]

Rio: [I don’t think so but I think that’s the vibe, we can’t go too hard that it’s like um I HATE you now but also you need to be scared straight enough that you commit to this break]

Buster: [exactly, I think we’re doing p well tbh]

Rio: [go us honey]

Buster: [did I set a date ie day and time for when they were gonna meet up and he was gonna surprise her with something? Cos I feel like I did, so I’m thinking if that’s true she could stand him up because then he’d be fuming]

Rio: [I’m not sure but if you did it wouldn’t be too hard to find, a date isn’t springing to my mind though]

Buster: [I didn’t commit us to hardcore specifics so as long as Nancy gets up to her evil schemes either in person or online before they’re due to go, that could work]

Rio: [again, works because tell us you’re bored without telling us you’re bored, girl; she probably wants Rio to go out and get messy with her and Rio is probably busy breaking up with this man so like, no and then she can just start this row]

Buster: [Oh Nancy, that’s too real, can we say they were gonna meet either in front of the cafe where they went or the shops he took her to? purely to break my own heart at the idea of him waiting there and she doesn’t come]

Rio: [wait, were they going to meet in London?]

Buster: [that’s my bad, we’re on Dublin time still]

Rio: [sadly, you cannot have that heartbreaking and cinematic parallel my boo but I love your brain]

Buster: [wherever you were meeting in Dublin won’t be as feelsy but I’ll live, I can’t have y’all galavant that far just to be dramatic, I confused myself probably because I said about him going back to london for new years]

Rio: [I feel you, it can be confusing with all the galavanting]

Buster: [at least you caught my mistake or we’d have ended up in a right muddle]

Rio: [do you wanna start the convo when she doesn’t show? Or would he wanna ice her out?]

Buster: [I should realistically write something because she could be just running late/have a legit reason she can’t come that isn’t this or have forgotten/thought you didn’t mean it because y’all were drunk when you said it]

Buster: Did you forget? 

Buster: [+ the deets of the place and time she’s supposed to be meeting him]

Rio: It’s not a good idea, we can’t

Buster: Yes it is and yes we can

Rio: Trust me, we can’t

Buster: I’m already here, Rio

Buster: Why can’t you, which one of your siblings are you enabling this time instead?

Rio: I’m sorry, don’t wait for me

Rio: it’s nothing to do with my siblings

Buster: Don’t tell me you’re sorry, tell me what it’s to do with

Rio: I think someone knows, that’s how it sounded, 99% sure

Rio: we stop now, then the information is barely anything

Buster: Why are you being so vague?

Buster: Who do you think knows what?

Rio: Because it doesn’t really matter who it is, does it?

Rio: And it could only be someone in the family, surely any of them having any sort of idea about us is bad, end of?

Buster: It matters that I know as much as there is to know, how else am I supposed to have any idea myself whether it’s bullshit or something to actually worry about

Rio: Why don’t you trust that I can work that out

Rio: I’m not making shit up

Buster: Because I can tell how scared you are

Buster: you could be making this into more than it is, that’s all

Rio: It’s your sister so I’m not, she’s definitely the worst person to know, even though no one is ideal

Buster: It’s Nancy?

Buster: oh come on, she doesn’t know what day of the week it is right now

Rio: She knew enough to ask why we’re spending so much time together

Buster: She’s jealous enough, you mean

Buster: we’re allowed to spend as much time together as we want, Janis and Ava are while we’re in Dublin

Rio: You know it’s not the same and it definitely sounded like she does too

Buster: Then I’ll handle her

Rio: that’s the last thing we need

Buster: I can shut up my own sister

Rio: You haven’t managed it yet, just don’t, seriously

Buster: You’re seriously going to treat me like I’m the liability in this situation when Nance is

Rio: No, of course she is

Rio: which is why we’re not dealing with her

Buster: Something else you’re just not going to deal with, yeah?

Buster: great idea, babe

Rio: Whatever could you mean by that, babe

Buster: It doesn’t solve anything

Rio: How do you expect to solve this? If she knows, she knows

Buster: She doesn’t know shit, ever

Buster: she’s causing trouble because she’s bored, and like I said, jealous, as usual, behaving like a child

Buster: that’s easy to solve

Rio: But you don’t know that 

Rio: I know what she said to me, yeah, it isn’t 100% but neither of us can ask her to fucking clarify

Buster: If she knew anything real or even close, she’d have said something to me, she wouldn’t be able to resist

Rio: Or would she wait for a better chance to use it

Rio: this is what I’m saying, she doesn’t have enough, there isn’t yet

Buster: Well, she isn’t here waiting outside [the place] with me, the coast’s clear as far as her getting any more blackmail material

Rio: Come on

Buster: You come on, everything’s fine, we couldn’t have asked for a better person to fire this warning shot, nobody believes a word that comes out of her mouth and we’ll be more careful with what does ours in the future

Rio: We can’t, clearly, or we wouldn’t be in this situation

Buster: There’s no situation, we went from barely acknowledging each other to me asking to speak to you for a minute, it’s hardly a shocking leap

Rio: You think that’s all she knows, that isn’t what’s actually happened

Buster: It’s all that happened in eyeline or earshot of anyone else, officially

Rio: As far as we know

Rio: because we actually fucking

Rio: you know what we did

Buster: I do but they don’t

Buster: and anything Nancy thinks she does, she can’t prove, it’s my word against hers, I can lie better

Rio: I think if your sister randomly comes out with Buster and Rio are hooking up, the parents are going to pay attention, however you spin it

Buster: Hopefully mine will pay for the therapy she desperately needs

Buster: if she talks, I’ll talk louder, tell them about James and everything else they don’t have any idea she’s doing

Rio: Obviously she’s fucked up, we know that

Rio: but there’s no way you wouldn’t end up in therapy with her

Buster: I don’t care if I do, it’ll look good in my uni interviews, make me sound like I’m even more well rounded

Rio: Jesus, you’re not funny

Buster: I’m not joking

Buster: if she’s out to get me, I’ll tell my parents she’s out to get me

Rio: I don’t know what she’s thinking, that wasn’t clear

Buster: The point is, they’ll believe she’s fucked up, not me, should it come to that, because that’s true

Rio: It shouldn’t come to that, it’s too risky, you have too much to lose

Buster: It won’t, we’ve barely taken any risks yet, neither of us are losing anything

Rio: I don’t disagree

Buster: Because you know I’m right

Rio: It’s not about being right, it’s just facts, there’s only so much she can say because only so much has happened

Buster: Nothing’s happened for her to talk about, she was slurring her words by [a time that’s early af]

Rio: You get my point

Buster: I don’t need things spelling out, wrong twin

Rio: Ha ha

Buster: You’ve made your point

Rio: You won’t try and talk to her then

Buster: Unless she brings it up with me, there isn’t anything I can talk to her about, you’ve told me fuck all

Buster: what I meant was, you already made your feelings clear by leaving me stood waiting

Rio: I didn’t do that on purpose, I’ve had a lot to try and deal with

Buster: On your own because you don’t trust me to help you deal with any of it

Rio: No, she blindsided me, which was on purpose because I was going to see [ex] to talk and couldn’t go out on the piss with her

Buster: But you’re still giving her exactly what she was hoping for, well done

Rio: I can’t not freak out, you should be too

Buster: Nancy doesn’t scare me

Rio: Not her, this, what we were doing

Rio: it could ruin everything

Buster: No it couldn’t, we’re never getting caught, we haven’t been

Buster: just hold your nerve

Rio: it’s not a fucking endurance test

Buster: Thank Christ, if you’re bailing already

Rio: This is about protecting you as much as it is anyone else, moreso

Rio: these are our real lives we’re talking about

Buster: My life isn’t under threat, neither is yours

Rio: I didn’t say that

Rio: don’t act like I’m crazy

Buster: Don’t act like we’re fucking amateurs, we’ve been doing this shit for years, we know how and we’re good at it

Rio: I just need space to think for a fucking second

Buster: Take it, we’ve been over the fact you’re not standing next to me

Rio: I apologized

Buster: Tell me what the real issue is, because I don’t believe for a second it’s my sister

Buster: What happened that night that pushed you too far?

Rio: Why don’t you believe me?

Buster: Tell me the truth, okay, if there was something I did, I need to know

Rio: I am telling you the truth, I can’t tell you something when there’s nothing

Rio: you know it was the same for me

Buster: Fine, I can’t force you to tell me

Rio: Seriously?

Buster: Whatever you think Nancy does or doesn’t know, that’s something we would’ve worked together on before

Rio: If I rushed to you, she’d have her point proved, I don’t know

Rio: yeah, I was scared

Buster: Do you think she’s got a point, with the nasty shit she said which you’re refusing to repeat, is that it?

Rio: No, but if she had ammunition to say and do worse, she would, and I’m determined not to give her any, that’s it

Buster: We haven’t given her any, I’ve been saying that this whole time

Rio: Good, thank fuck

Buster: Neither of us would ever be that stupid

Rio: I don’t think you’re stupid

Rio: I think we want it too much

Buster: You think we got carried away

Buster: it isn’t something an intelligent person who knows better would do

Rio: It’s not really about intelligence, it’s not logical, we both knew that before anything happened

Buster: We’re not scoring high for emotional intelligence or logic

Rio: I’ll live with that

Buster: You’ll have to, yeah

Rio: Blame me then

Buster: No

Rio: Seems like it

Buster: You’re the one using the word blame

Rio: If we’re debating semantics then we’ve really gotten to the end of this conversation being useful

Buster: It seems like you have regrets, I don’t know whether that’s up for debate or not

Rio: You’re the one who’s brought regrets up twice now, are you

Rio: because just say

Buster: I would, when have I not been honest with you?

Rio: I’m being honest with you and you don’t believe me

Buster: You honestly need space, I heard you, despite that being what we’ve had years of

Rio: That isn’t how I meant it

Rio: the fact you had to ask about the other night though, we were both drunk, taking a second to think about it with a clear head isn’t a bad idea

Buster: We weren’t drunk enough for you to use it as an excuse

Rio: We want to know exactly what we’re doing, that’s all

Buster: I thought we did

Rio: Let’s be sure

Buster: When were you not sure?

Rio: I’m sure, but I know we need to be more careful too

Buster: I don’t disagree

Rio: You know I’m talking sense, it’s not like I’m attacking you

Buster: What I’ve said hasn’t been bullshit

Rio: I know

Buster: Good

Rio: and I know you’re still mad, I didn’t mean to leave you waiting

Buster: I’m mad that my sister keeps ruining fucking everything

Rio: yeah but it could be worse this time

Buster: No, I’m not letting that happen

Rio: Not now

Buster: Not ever

Rio: Let’s face it, it’d be better for us if we did it right and could still deal with having to see each other at family functions after

Rio: it’s an unwitting favour on her part

Buster: If that’s how you feel, thank her by spending all your time with her at family functions instead, since she apparently did you such a big favour

Rio: Come on, Buster, you know damn well that’s not the furthest thing from what I want

Buster: It’s exactly what you want

Buster: you’d rather deal with this by hoping it’ll go away, like you always do

Rio: Wow, okay

Buster: There isn’t a right way to do this, there’s only our way or hers

Rio: What do you want to do, seriously

Rio: what’s the smartest thing to do

Buster: Everyone thinks we’re friends now, going back to avoiding each other completely looks more suspicious than anything she could have seen

Rio: Aren’t we

Buster: I don’t know what we are

Rio: Alright

Rio: well there isn’t anything we have to be seen together at ‘til St Paddys so that’s plenty of time to work it out

Buster: Yeah, you don’t have to see me at New Year’s, I’ve got plenty of time to catch a flight home

Rio: I won’t go either, makes it a non-issue

Buster: Right, great

Rio: You suggested it, if you want to stay, stay

Rio: I have options here

Buster: Why would I want to stay?

Buster: my best options are there

Rio: You sounded passive aggressive

Buster: You’re talking sense, I know that, like you said

Rio: Okay, then it’s sorted

Buster: I’ll see you in March

Rio: Have fun

Buster: You too

[coldflasher]

i LOVE the name thing, it's so interesting to me!! i think there's so much interesting stuff to consider there. like as you said, obviously him using barry's name is very clearly a power play, because it's a powerful thing that he knows it. meanwhile, in my opinion, barry calling him "snart" is actually like a distancing thing. i do also find it VERY interesting that whenever we get snartbaited in later seasons, barry always (or at least in most cases) uses his full name to refer to him, whereas whenever the other characters mention him, they call him just "snart" or "captain cold". so it's like an acknowledgement of this slightly closer relationship barry has with him, but then when they're actually interacting, barry calls him just "snart", aside from the singular "lenny" which, yeah, foaming at the mouth always about that one, and it is extremely funny how barry tries to cross that line and strike up that more casual, familiar way of referring to him and then the narrative IMMEDIATELY punishes him for it lmao. i do think it's very telling that lewis immediately recognizes that something isn't right based on the fact that barry uses a nickname for him and he just knows that is never something that leonard would let slide. even LEWIS doesn't dare use his name, he is instinctively aware of not having that right, he just calls him "son" (unless i'm misremembering).

that being said, leonard actually uses people's full names quite a lot UNLESS he's being mocking (calling stein "professor" etc., like someone else said, though i do actually feel like he has some level of respect for stein to be fair, so maybe that isn't really being used in a mocking sense). like i'm pretty sure he calls joe by his first name, he definitely calls iris by her first name, i *think* he addresses cisco and caitlin by name as well. he calls ray "raymond", which is even more interesting that he has a specific nickname for him.

in my opinion it's kind of a... i don't want to say disrespect (though it defo is when it comes to joe lmao) but he's refusing to use titles, he's a bit overly familiar with these people who really don't like him, and imo he does it to get under their skin with all of them. he knows their names the same way he knows barry's! he's never been INTRODUCED to any of them. he just knows who they are as part of his knowledge of barry and his weaknesses. so i always kind of thing of him using their names as a little bit of a threat, a little bit of a jibe, he's riling them up by acting like they're friends when they all know they're not, and he gets a kick out of knowing they can't call him out on it. also, i have defo read somewhere that using people's names frequently is a manipulation tactic, which is also an interesting facet of it

but then the way that everyone except lisa (and then later sara) calls him "snart", even mick?? it feels kind of like a respect he's demanding, like there's this awareness that he won't tolerate the same familiarity he shows to everyone else, even in a mocking way. they're all intimidated by him a little bit, too much to use his name back. it's something i'm always very aware of in fic. when does barry get to cross that line of being intimate enough with him to be permitted to use his name? not necessarily even verbally, but when do they build enough of a relationship that that distancing thing breaks down?

and i also think leonard pivoting to calling him "flash" in infantino street is interesting because as you said, he's kind of trying to put that added distance between them because he's feeling vulnerable about showing his hand with the lisa situation, barry now has a similar knowledge of his weakness(es) to what leonard has about his, which he is NOT a fan of. but i also think it's an interesting way of reminding him of like, what the flash represents. he's calling him by that title to be like "the flash, a thief? the flash, getting blood on his hands?" he's reminding him of the weight of the title, that he's supposed to be good. BUT even more interestingly, when it comes down to it, the tipping point, he goes back to calling him barry because he's reminding him of that personal connection, and that ultimately, he knows who barry is as well as who the flash purports to be...

do you ever think about how leonard starts out calling barry “barry” even though we frequently see him referring to other characters by their last name because using barry’s first name—his nickname, even—is such an effective way to rub it in his face that he know who barry is, knows about his life and his friends and family

but leonard never actually uses that leverage, he doesn’t even tell lisa, and so “barry” goes from an explicit threat to an empty threat to… barry’s nickname

and leonard can’t just be calling barry by the same nickname that his friends and family use. it sounds too much like he is barry’s friend or family. which he’s not.

and it’s so much more glaring because barry is still calling him “snart” like they’re acquaintances at best, while leonard is locked into calling him “barry” like he thinks they’re BFFs

but obviously he’s far too stubborn to clumsily retreat to “allen” to put them back on even ground, so he pivots to mockingly calling barry “the flash” even to his face, even when they’re alone with the masks off (like in infantino street: he greets him with “hello, flash,” “the flash, a thief?” “the flash should remain a hero”)

but interestingly he’s still “barry” when leonard is asking him to save him from king shark. he’s “barry” when leonard is talking him down from killing in cold blood. leonard is always so intentional about the way he uses barry’s names, it is such an interesting contrast to the way barry used leonard’s

(barry, who, of course, improvised calling leonard “lenny” one time, and two people got shot over it. barry was one of them.)

[arcane-ish]

@bluedaddysgirl

Clearly Vander's betrayal changed him deeply, to the point he claims he isn't even the same man.

This I agree with. I think pre betrayal Silco is basically fair game. I think basically any headcanon from "Silco was an awkward Powder like runt who Vander took pity on and saw potential in" to "he was already angry and paranoid and irritable, but also extremely smart and a great planer" to "he was the happiest, funniest, sexiest guy in town" are totally valid.

LOL I guess you're assuming the people just erected that? Considering who Vander was to Silco, I'm certain he had it erected himself. That, or allowed people to have it there.

I definitely lean towards somebody else made it and allowed it to stay (which imo does show that he isn't the stereotypical villain who wants to eradicate the memory of his predecessor/competitor/enemy). Why? Because Ekko signed it and I just doubt that Ekko would sign a statue that was erected by Silco. It's of course not impossible, but I just personally doubt it.

He plays Marcus like a fiddle for nearly a decade.

He also antagonizes him needlessly and treats him openly with disdain. Now he definitely doesn't have to be nice to him, Marcus is a Topsider, the enemy, he has no reason to play nice. But it's a good example of where Silco could have tried to feign some sort of emotional connection and been charming (especially since he reveals to us that he thinks that Marcus has hero ambitions, but he doesn't play into it). But he doesn't have to so he doesn't. He manages to string Marcus along despite being mean to him and insulting him in every single meeting they have (and that is before he knows Vi is back). Because he knows Marcus weaknesses, so he doesn't have to be nice, so he isn't.

Like I'm sure he could have tried some version of "oh, you are so much more talented and better than Grayson, you should have her job" or "yes those shitty stuckup topsider aristocrats who treat you like dirt and don't appreciate you". Instead he openly treats Marcus like a whore and just throws money at him even though it's pretty clear and imo Silco is completely aware that this probably bothers Marcus immensely (because according to Silco Marcus dreams of being a hero). It's a powerplay to do it because he knows Marcus can't escape the situation even if he hates it.

(compare that to Mel who likely has a low opinion of the bearded council guy but hides it so he's completely clueless)

We also see plenty of other instances of him being somewhat needlessly mean to people.

Like:

And that is one of the goons who has been with him since the olden days, right`? And who didn't really have anything to do with fucking up the mission.

And yes, unlike with Marcus where it has been a dynamic since the first time they meet in episodes 2 and 3, one could argue he is under a lot of additional stress, but I would also argue that people don't seem necessarily shocked by his behavior.

I would argue that Silco acts like he can just buy himself out of every situation.

You have to give them something to dream of, and good pay/good reasons to follow *you* specifically.

I doubt that there was that much competition in town for revolutionaries who actually do stuff rather than just bullshitting and don't screw you over. ;) And good passionate speeches are important for groups like that. Which doesn't mean that didn't get along with people in his pre-betrayal days because he was less jaded. Or that he didn't get along better with people because back then he didn't have the money and power to force it on people pre Act 2.

Silco is somebody who lapses into speeches. He does it with the chem baron. He does it to convince Deckard. He almost lapses into it with Vander. Jinx complains that he sermonizes too much. It's definitely his thing. It's what he tries to use when the chem factory gets destroyed, it's what he tries to use on Sevika. Holding a big speech is his go-to tool. So I head canon that he was at the very least a very rambly kind of guy. Whether in public getting up speeches or over a beer.

And we know why Sevika chose him. Not because she likes him so much, but because the other guy is not good enough at the job.

As for other goons and their loyalty we have:

Again if Silco had a staff who secretly loves and adores him, this is the point where he would say "You don't know who you're messing with" or something similar. Not "He'll kill me". (granted, he could be talking about Marcus here, but I would like to point out that we never actually see Marcus kill anybody on screen and the only time he genuinely tries he can't pull the trigger, so would Marcus who Silco openly treats with disdain be the person who has the goon shaking in his boots?)

Or take his symbol, the Eye of Zaun.

It pretty heavily signals "I'm watching you". When he could have chosen something rousing and patriotic. To me this just isn't the symbol of the demeanor of somebody who cares about being liked or popular and invests that much effort into it.

Again this idea of power through fear is a thread from things apparently he taught Jinx "Be what they fear, Jinx." to what his strategy is in Act 1 "The only way to defeat a superior enemy is to stop at nothing. To become what they fear."

And yes, any single testimony that the people dislike or fear Silco you can discount.

Caitlyn => yeah she has been interviewing people and investigating the case for a long time, but she's a green enforcer who has never been in the undercity before and before this was too dumb to realize that Silco was the mastermind

Vi => she just got out of prison. what does she know

Ekko => so he has been around for a while, but he is angry about Benzo so he is not a reliable witness

Babette => oh maybe she was just lying to Vi

Mek => oh, maybe he meant Marcus or he was just trying to look sympathetic in front of the enforcer

Sevika indicated that people will keep making assassination attempts and that she would leave him if somebody better came along => ah, she's just joking

Or maybe the Occam's razor is that people just don't like Silco a ton because he is kind of distant and often mean and condescending to people he deals with? And either threatens them or pays them? (or gives speeches or lectures them) And the reason why they don't like him isn't because he is inherently unlikable, but because he doesn't put an effort into being liked, because he only cares about achieving his cause, because his trust issues mean he doesn't want to be emotionally close to people and thinks he has the money and power to get away with not being nice and achieve his goal anyway, because he would rather rule through fear than care about being liked.

(for the record: I actually do think there is at least a tiny chance that Silco will get a statue in season 2 and that there are people who liked him for being ruthless and getting things done. But I just feel with how they are telling the story it's pretty unlikely that there will be some sort of magic turnaround where a ton of people are revealed to really like him/that he was actually quite beloved and people mourn that he is gone)

I don't think that's the profile of someone who is cold/bad with people.

He is not bad with people, he just isn't personable/nice/friendly with them excluding rare exceptions (like with Ren, where it still clearly serves his purpose, it just shows that he can do it if he wants to, it doesn't benefit him if she's crying and wailing, it might just make Marcus panic, doing it like that might be even creepier to him). I don't think that he is cold towards people because he is internally emotionally cold himself. I think he keeps a distance between himself and others because of The Betrayal. He is the "I have been hurt so I'm never going to let anybody close again and keep everybody at arm's length (except Jinx)".

That's why he keeps telling Jinx that EVERYBODY will betray her. Not "Vi is a bad person she will betray you, like Vander betrayed me, because she is just like Vander", not "Vi will betray you because she betrayed you before". To tell Jinx that everybody will betray her except him, she can't trust anybody except him is an incredibly awful and horrific and harmful thing to tell her (like... I'm not holding my breath for Sevika comforting Jinx in the aftermath of episode 9 and Jinx letting it happen after Silco just told her "It's only us", just told her that nobody is trustworthy). So him actually believing that and by that extent "no he doesn't actually like and trust and emotionally care for any of his supposed allies, he cares only for Jinx" is actually the friendlier interpretation of his character compared to "actually he has a ton of cordial relationships with other people, he just manipulates Jinx into not having any).

I would argue his desperation to hold on to Jinx suggests that inside he loves deeply and needily. And post betrayal Silco loves only Jinx because a past experience literally scarred him. He is cold to others and focuses all his love on only Jinx (my take: because he sees himself in her and it's his way of being kind and gentle to himself).

He is extremely good at reading people. And I definitely subscribe to the idea that he could be charming. I just think post portrayal Silco doesn't. Whether it's "hurt others so they can't hurt you" or "being nice doesn't protect you from betrayal, so it's a waste of time". (that said if people want to headcanon that he is mean/want to rule through fear because he is bad at being traditionally nice and friendly charming (or he lost his confidence after the Betrayal and the Scarring), sure, I happen to prefer the read that he could be nice and personable he just chooses not to, because he hates all people and thinks they can't be trusted [also: the reason why he is indifferent to the Shimmer deaths of his supposed beloved children of Zaun] )

IMO particularly Act 2 and 3 Silco is somebody who takes care of his resources. That's why even when they fuck up like Marcus he keeps giving them another chance. That's why even in Act 1 he pays attention enough to tell them to give Deckard a meal. He does not sit down with Deckard to bond with him. He delegates it to others (just like he delegates it to Marcus to spread money to the families of the dead enforcers) and when he and Deckard "bond" he speechifies and lectures him. He understands what people want (like power for example or getting back at enforcers) and promises it to them.

I headcanon that Act 1 Silco had some money (enough to bribe Marcus), but people probably followed him because of ideology, because he promised them that he would do something when others wouldn't, because he promised them power. Act 2/3 it doesn't seem strange to me that people would still be with him just because he is a good enough boss for Zaun standards and in addition to that he is also the biggest game in town now. I don't have to personally be chummy with my boss to keep working.

Silco is clearly good enough with children to persuade Ren

I agree that he is good with her. But to me it's just as plausible that this is something he learned through Jinx not something he necessarily must have had pre-Jinx.

Personally, I don't go here or there in a hard way on whether he had children skills. I do think that I personally don't think that post-betrayal Silco was nice to random children before Powder. And I don't think that Ren proves that he likes children in general. Being nice to her serves his purpose and he does topple over her game in the end. (and he isn't particularly sympathetic to the death of Renni's son). So I see it more that he has the skills to treat children well, but I don't think that he really likes or cares about any children other than Jinx. (again: was generally up for killing Vander's children when they showed up (and was up for sending them to jail), which doesn't mean that I think he likes killing children, I wouldn't put it past him that he avoids it (maybe because he figures most children are not calculating enough for betrayal yet) and just likes threatening it because it's very effective)

[which again says nothing about fanfic. Stuff can still be fun in fanfic even if I don't buy that the characters are actually like that in canon. Plus if it makes thing more entertaining and sexy and touching in fanfic, I'm all for it. Like the fact that I never in a million years buy that Caitlyn would work undercover as a prostitute in a brothel is not going to stop me from enjoying a story like that. Or like that Ekko would never be in chem baron no matter what universe is not going to stop me from thinking it's a sexy idea for a fanart]

[tratserenoyreve]

on my list of genshin characters who i believe are likely to perish at one point in the plot, funnily kaeya is not one of them!

(musing and spoilers under the cut)

kaeya is more of like a walking chekhov's gun imo. one that we're pretty sure is gonna shoot eventually but i do think the game is purposefully trying to mislead people into double-guessing kaeya's motives so that he can pull a sick stunt later on and be like "ha ha i got you!" like a full fakeout where he acts like he's betrayed everyone but surprise he did that so he could get to the inner circle and sabotage things so everything's fine again.

kaeya ages like a regular human being and was able to grow up normally with his adoptive family from childhood. very unlike other khaenri'ahns suffering from the curse of immortality as dainsleif describes, a curse that also potentially is what has kept rhinedottir alive assuming she wasn't already some form of magical being. kaeya seems bogged down less by the weight of a curse and more by a family legacy, a grudge against the gods that destroyed their home. either he is a descendant of survivors from khaenri'ah or he was directly saved from the cataclysm by timey whimey shenanigans that plopped lil kiddo kaeya into the future. no matter which tho, he is very much faced with choosing to pursue revenge or living a life of ignorance in mondstadt with those who brought him in.

the themes of revenge and challenging decisions made by gods are recurring in genshin, so kaeya having to decide what he should fight for, if it's even fair for him to literally bear the sins of his father, fits snugly into that. i don't see him being in mortal peril. more just having to figure out where his loyalty lies and what he chooses to believe in.

my list of folks likely to die really isn't that surprising tho and probably in line with most others. from most to least likely i have:

1) albedo. he was made by rhinedottir, who also crafted durin the venomous skeletal dragon, the riftwolves, and probably other fun surprises we have yet to find. it's implied rhinedottir may have directed her creations to destroy things, and albedo's story quest has him musing on him eventually losing control and wondering if he can trust the traveler to stop him.

he also has a few profile snippets on feeling like there isn't enough time, which is odd coming from someone who has already lived for at least 400 years and been adopted by similarly extremely long-lived people. albedo mentions that he resonates with durin's remains, which is how he deduced that they're related. he also was able to piece together that rhinedottir tried several times to make a homunculus like himself, with more than one failing before him and consequently being discarded.

the reality of rhinedottir possibly being a big future main antagonist combined with albedo's storyline contemplating the fragility of life and the shadow of death looming over his history doesn't make it too big of a leap of logic to see him dying as a real potential.

2) venti. his entire image is built around martyrdom, that's why mondstadt has a church like it does. the death of the nameless bard in the uprising against decarabia put in motion a series of events where venti has already sacrificed a lot of himself. he may be the god of freedom, but he has next to none himself. his appearance is that of his deceased friend, he wishes for mondstadt to operate without him, and he has some concerning things to say about celestia.

"the water tastes foul" is a very concerning thing to hear about what is supposed to be the heavenly plane! there's also the fact that the abyss order's plans involve the use of an inverted stolen statue of barbatos. as one of the oldest remaining archons, venti has more insight into how the gods of teyvat have operated than anyone else the traveler has met yet. venti also seems aware of gods that pre-date celestia, naming some of the dragon lords in a webcomic. which were slain by phanes waaaayyyy before celestia touched down on teyvat.

venti knowing too much and being a bit too willing to guide the traveler towards shaking up the order of things on teyvat combined with his pre-disposition towards self-sacrifice lines him up for potentially being killed by either the abyss order or even celestia as the story goes on.

3) childe. dude's story quest is pretty much learning he's cutting his life short through use of a delusion. additional info from him goes on to discuss how he had been trapped in the abyss itself for a while and that violent experience really messed up his outlook on what life is. i don't have him on my team but his behavior screams "i am going to pick a fight with the wrong person one day and i will not regret it".

4) lisa. possibly. probably? she's been cursed and was confirmed by devs outside of the game as to having had her lifespan cut short for seeing something she shouldn't have. dunno if this means she'll pass away over the course of the story tho or if it'll be left as an impending inevitable eventuality.

there'll likely be more as the game releases more characters and info but for now these are ones with the most notable death flags i've seen.

[balillee]

my unpopular dsmp opinions, some of which genuinely should be popular

c!dream has crossed the moral event horizon and is irredeemable. once you cross that threshold, you're no longer a 'morally grey' character.

pre-recorded, heavily produced lore killed the lore. it was cool, sure, but you completely misunderstand the magic that the smp had when people watched it initially. the story is improv and that's how we like it. we can tell the cc's have lost interest in it, you can admit that to us, we'll understand, just stop lying to me.

c!dream's pov isn't necessary to understand his character or his motivations. if you've watched literally any c!primeboys stream he's basically spelled it out for you.

i don't understand how fans can dislike l'manberg or have claimed to be against it since the beginning. i honestly don't get it. what's so bad about wanting your own spot where you make your own rules and skirt accountability that has been used to technically oppress you before - and, before someone who never saw the earlier streams tries to disagree with this, the og l'manberg crew were imprisoned for shit that everyone else on the server was practically encouraged to do. also, what do you have against fun and happiness?

i think some of you forget that 'hybrids' aren't a thing, discounting c!ranboo. there's no piglin hybrids, c!techno is just a pig. there's no avian hybrids, c!phil is just a man with wings. there's no creeper hybrids, c!sam is just a creeper who's indecently exposed from the hips down. canonically there's no hybrids, and therefore no hybrid discrimination. people ran with that concept too much.

the loss and the fanon rewriting of the early lore up until pogtopia has ruined fandom perception of c!dream and the og l'manberg boys. c!tommy is more morally white than you think he is, and c!dream has always been a villain - he massacres and he kills and he destroys and he schemes and he always has broken his own rules. no wonder the boys wanted their own space after how they were treated.

i think ranboo oftentimes forgets his own lore. he brings stuff up that c!ranboo may have done, such as exploding the community house to frame c!tommy, holding onto Cat, and it goes absolutely nowhere. we've gotten all of these developments in his story but they have never been expanded on, and we're nowhere closer to figuring out his relationship to c!dream and what his other side is and honestly i see no hope that we'll be any closer to knowing even by the end of the year.

your characters don't all have to be morally grey for the story itself to be morally grey. this is fiction - some people can be nothing but evil and others can be nothing but good. being purely good or evil doesn't mean that you're one dimensional, either.

c!dream apologists have ruined c!dream for me. he's not a good person. how about you let me enjoy a villain for who he actually is, rather for than your percieved woobified ragdoll you pass off as c!dream.

the story was better when there was a central writer. it was brilliant back when wilbur wrote it to be that the environment drives the characters and the story, and it was really good in early s2 up until techno's execution day when it was more character driven. since then, the amount of autonomy people have over their characters without any central 'director', as it were, has been a detriment to the story overall. there needs to still be one overarching figure or director or writer.

not everyone is a main character. just because they have a pov, doesn't mean they're a main character. some characters have such little impact on the overall plot and describing everyone as a main character oversaturates the story and makes some characters seem more important than they are.

the egg lore had so much potential up until it didn't. all that built up threat that we were expecting and we still don't even know what the egg wants really other than just controlling people. does it hatch?

genuinely, if there's no major plot developments by the end of the year (and let's be honest, it's a very big possibility at this point), a few of the more prominent members of the server should do a podcast style stream talking about where the story would have gone, because at least then we would have gotten somewhat closer to a conclusion.

c!techno is a villain and an asshole and a bad person. he stops caring for people once their interests don't align with his or if they look at him funny. he makes meta-jokes about his own tyrannical and oppressive nature. stop taking that away from him. he's a bad person. cc!techno does a fabulous job portraying that in a comedic manner and the balancing of him being a deeply flawed person with deeply flawed morals and ideas with his comedically-portrayed stubbornness and lack of willingness to hear out opposing viewpoints is incredible. i want to like characters who are arseholes for the sake of being arseholes, and who refuse to take into account the hurt they've caused either out of self-righteousness or because they don't care, so let me. he's the anti-peacemaker, LET ME HIM ENJOY HIM FOR THAT!!!!

i think tommy and wilbur's way of doing lore is my favourite. relies heavily on improv, voice acting, sprite acting and facial expressions. really shows off the acting props and they pull off the emotional moments well for the insanity of the creative medium.

i'm not a fan of fan-music. i find songs about media i'm into difficult to listen to. coincidentally i'm also not a fan of shit like slam poetry or live music/musicals/pantomimes.

the death of l'manberg killed people's motivation to go on the server casually. i've talked about it more in depth before, but destroying what was a central, driving environment for the story killed momentum and motivation. imagine in an episode of she-ra, the princess alliance just nuke the freight zone and all of the members of the horde just have to deal with it. that would be shit.

until season 3 has some momentum, i'm counting the end of the smp as january 20th. that had a conclusion. season 3 has... whores, technoblade and tommyinnit. that's about it.

i wasn't a fan of the development of c!tubbo joining las nevadas. i preferred snowchester and the walled city conflict. give c!tubbo some backbone and some badassery. also tubbo where's the fucking nuke bro if you're shelving that plotline just tell us on like an alt stream what the plan was i beg

add like 2 or 3 new people to the server so that michael mcchill has someone to talk to and so that there's something always happening on the server. it gives the og's more motivation to return if things are happening in and out of canon and it'll help with momentum, and who knows? maybe they can write their own story/stories.

i really think that c!sam is an underrated character. he's multilayered, extremely interesting, and the dichotomy of his loyalty to his job and how far down the rabbithole that's taken him versus the genuine love he has for his friends that drives him to do what he does out of wanting to do right by them is brilliant. i don't talk about c!sam enough.

STOP HAVING FUCKING VILLAIN ARCS!!! I'M FUCKIN SICK OF IT!!!! i want to see more characters who see everyone else being absolute selfish, abhorrent cunts and go 'if nobody else is going to be a good person, i fucking will'. GIVE ME SOME MORAL WHITENESS!!! IT'S INTERESTING AND MORALLY GOOD CHARACTERS ARE FUN!!!

let tommyinnit build cobblestone towers. everyone bullied him too much for how ugly they were and the one he built outside of the prison looked genuinely really nice. it gives the boy something to do.

i'm a fan of the revive book and the canon lives system. don't ask me why, but i think it might just be the morbidity of it. it adds to c!dream's god complex persona, and i think the fragility of death itself is a really fun concept. not enough fan cc's have made connections with that and c!mumza, and it could make for cool fanfic.

ranboo your house is fucking ugly. it's an eyesore

c!niki, and to some extent now c!jack and c!fundy, are boring me and ruining my mood. i think c!jack is the closest to being an actually interesting sympathetic villain, mainly because nobody else seems to realise that c!niki is a villain. not a good one imo, but she's a villain. c!jack just has the problem of starting a new project over and over and over and over again and because of the slow in momentum for the primary cast, there hasn't been a lot of recent development for him.

not really a dream smp opinion, but if philza went full geordie accent, i would love it. i want him to, in canon, say shit like 'me n ye' instead of 'me and you' and use geordie dialect. i want him to be physically unintelligible because it's funny.

i don't really know what's up with c!foolish but i think he's a dumbass. he had a while to think about c!q's proposal and then changed his mind about joining the guy to admitted to letting him die just because. moron

i wish there was more c!eret lore. i wish he was an actual king with an actual kingdom and actual subjects and royal advisors. c!eret is far too fucking cool to be the king of nothing and nobody. fatten up the kingdom and the castle with people who work with c!eret, and don't just make it tyrannical and dictator-y to prove the point of the server's 'anarchists'. make it a healthy working environment, please - if you want moral greyness, have 'anarchists' who claim to care about the welfare of the server oppose a kingdom of happy people under a fair and just ruler because their ideologies clash.

the server needs more characters who oppose anarchy in more peaceful ways, or passively wish for systems to be a part of. i think a chaos vs order conflict ending only in mutual understanding where everyone understands that they should just leave each other alone would slot nicely into the story that's been created so far.

you need to have watched all of the previous arcs to understand the story. i've seen people argue that they don't need to know about earlier lore to understand the prison, but that's the equivalent of only watching the final season of pretty little liars and expecting to understand the context of what's going on.

some characters aren't that morally grey. some characters, take c!tommy for example, are definitely on the whiter side for the morality scale, he's just an asshole. he's abrasive and rude and a dickhead but he also doesn't agree with terrorism, he's patriotic, he strives for a better world, he's apologetic, but he's also a fucking BITCH.

you can add onto this if you want, but not if you're a c!dream apologist. nobody likes your opinions

[thinkingisadangerouspastime]

hi! i really like your posts and recently i came across some anti kataang arguments and i would like to see your opinion on that (if you want to answer because you must be very tired of answering those lol)

“i remember perfectly aang forcing himself into katara. not only once, but a lot of times. in that talk they were having during the play it was one of the moments aang was intrusive”

“i saw people saying that katara was jealous of aang with that kids in kyoshi island, which she obviously was not. she was annoyed at them”

“kataang had no development. it feels like a ship made out of nowhere”

“aang is completely obsessed with the idea of katara being his. proof is that episode were the guru tells him he has to let go of her and he choses to break the connection. it’s like: look what i did for you, you should stay with me. aang learning to let go would have been a evolution for his character”

“making them stay together in the end just because aang is the protagonist and has to stay with the girl is boring and adds nothing to the plot”

“he spend years after a girl that never felt the same for him”

hi anon! im very flattered you like my posts 🥰💛 and you’re not wrong that sometimes it gets a lil tiring addressing anti kataang arguments, but that’s because 90% of them are the same foolish rhetoric dressed up in a different costume, lol. i finally have some free time, so i’ll take a stab at these for you!

“i remember perfectly aang forcing himself into katara. not only once, but a lot of times. in that talk they were having during the play it was one of the moments aang was intrusive”

not gonna lie, this particular “argument” made me crack up laughing because they “remember perfectly… lots of times” but can only name one instance 😂 like i am on the floor, because trying to get away with that in a formal essay would earn them nothing more than a goose egg. you need evidence to support a claim, which this “claim” has none of. i mean,, when does aang force himself onto katara?? when katara initiates every cheek kiss they share?? when they are mutual participants in several shared hugs?? don’t get me started on DOBS - the Now or Never Kiss that falls under literally requires reciprocation from both parties, lol. but regarding the ever-so-infamous EIP episode they bring up:

This post talks specifically about EIP and the play’s portrayal of Aang and Katara (and how it cannot be used to define their relationship). This post explains the true source of Katara’s conflict in turning down Aang (i.e. the war itself and the risks the war presents for both of them) and why the EIP kiss did not “ruin” Kataang’s relationship. This post explains how the EIP kiss was resolved through narrative parallels. This post explains how the EIP kiss is so often blown out of proportion. This post explains how Aang did not “threaten” Katara in EIP (with some excellent commentary in the notes, too).

the fact of the matter is that yes, aang overstepped a boundary with katara there. no one has ever contested that because to do so would be to disregard canon, and here’s the thing about kataang shippers: we love atla canon. it gave us everything we wanted and more. (imo, that’s what anti kataangers don’t understand.) the EIP episode can be interpreted as a “low point” for many reasons, but the primary “takeaway” is that the play performed was imperialist propaganda that preyed on the gaang’s insecurities and demeaned them (much to the pleasure of the Fire Nation audience), which had negative consequences, one of which was aang kissing katara largely out of desperation. no one has ever excused that! thus, what i think isn’t clicking with anti kataangers is that aang and katara’s miscommunication in EIP is not a representation of their relationship being doomed to fail. aang made a mistake and immediately backed off without question or hesitation. katara has time to make her own decision and chooses to forgive him. doesn’t it strip more of katara’s agency away to conclude that katara could never ever ever forgive her best friend for a single mistake that - comparatively - could have been a whole lot worse?

(im just saying.)

“i saw people saying that katara was jealous of aang with that kids in kyoshi island, which she obviously was not. she was annoyed at them”

honestly, i have a question for whoever came up with this jfksjdasks. okay, yes, she was annoyed. that’s a given based on her exasperated eye rolls and sighs. but why was katara annoyed with them, hmm?

here’s my thing about katara’s feelings in this ep: jealousy and annoyance are not inherently the same, it’s true. a person can be annoyed without being jealous (obviously). as such, there are essentially two possible interpretations that have validity, although one in my opinion has greater weight in canon:

1. yes, it is possible to interpret katara’s annoyance that episode as being solely related to their delays on kyoshi island. one can reasonably argue that katara’s romantic feelings for aang were not as strong so early in the series (it’s only episode 4, after all, although lbr - she was Looking at aang’s tattoos in episode 1 lmao), and therefore the primary reason she was annoyed at the fangirls is because they were one of the causes extending their stay on the island when katara felt they needed to leave. it’s a fair interpretation.

2. a different and stronger interpretation, in my opinion, is that katara’s irritation was a product of both annoyance at their extended stay and jealousy of the fangirls’ obsession with aang. because here’s the thing about jealousy: it doesn’t have to be some extreme, exaggerated emotion/reaction! when katara gets jealous of on ji in book 3, she makes a single comment about aang and on ji dancing together. when aang gets jealous of jet in book 2 (because of sokka’s teasing), he, too, makes a single comment (i.e. that it would be a bad idea for katara to kiss jet). i bring these two moments up because they explicitly demonstrate within atla canon that reactions of jealousy do not have to be dramatique and outrageous, à la zuko throwing ruon-jian across the room in book 3, lmao. jealousy can be simple! kept to oneself! as such, katara’s disgruntled manner in that episode - which, might i add, is largely if not only shown in reaction to aang with the fangirls - can certainly be interpreted as a quieter form of jealousy akin to several other moments within canon.

more than that, however, if the writers did not at all want jealousy to be an interpretation on the table… why on earth would they have bothered to mention jealousy as a possibility? here’s the relevant excerpt from the episode transcript:

Koko: [Stomps her foot in annoyance and puts her hands on her hips, while another girl happily waves at Aang; irritated.] What’s taking you so long, Aangy?

Cut back to Aang and Katara; the former enthusiastically waves back at his awaiting fangirls, while the latter raises an eyebrow at the scene.

Katara: [Slightly mocking.] Aangy…

Aang: [Enthusiastically.] Just a second, Koko!

Katara: [Sarcastic.] “Simple monk,” huh? [Annoyed.] I thought you promised me that this Avatar stuff wouldn’t go to your head.

Aang: It didn’t. You know what I think? You just don’t want to come because you’re jealous.

Katara: [Close-up; angrily.] Jealous? [More high pitched voice.] Of what?

Cut to a broader shot. Aang moves back slightly, when an irritated Katara resumes to ferociously stuff the basket with more fruits.

Aang: Jealous that we’re having so much fun without you.

Katara: [Irritated.] That’s ridiculous.

(sidebar, but can i just say that seeing “ferociously stuff” to describe putting fruits away is arguably the funniest thing i’ve ever read sjkdhsjalks)

to me, this excerpt alone all but proves katara’s irritation is a mixture of annoyance at the girls’ (and aang’s) behavior/their delayed departure and jealousy regarding how the fangirls’ fawn over aang. katara clearly demonstrates frustration at aang’s seeming lack of concern for their time crunch and how he’s letting his status get to his head (and remember, y’all: this is very early book 1 aang, he’s barely begun to truly reconcile what it means to be the avatar and the last airbender, which is understandable and a-okay! can’t have growth if he doesn’t start somewhere!). that checks out. but next thing you know, katara’s reaction proceeds to dramatically heighten when aang teases the idea of jealousy to her. again: why include this moment if jealousy was never on the table whatsoever as an interpretation for her feelings of irritation? why make katara’s response intensify so strongly if she’s not jealous even a little bit?

in sum, while i don’t think katara’s aggravation is solely fueled by jealousy, the episode itself points to jealousy as at least a part of it. simple!

“kataang had no development. it feels like a ship made out of nowhere”

this take screams willful ignorance, like did they even watch the whole show?? it’s not worth addressing over and over, ngl.

This post and this post explain how Katara’s feelings for Aang develop throughout the series. This post explains how Aang consistently supported Katara throughout the series. This post demonstrates how Kataang is literally ingrained in every episode.

“aang is completely obsessed with the idea of katara being his. proof is that episode were [sic] the guru tells him he has to let go of her and he choses [sic] to break the connection. it’s like: look what i did for you, you should stay with me. aang learning to let go would have been a evolution for his character”

“completely obsessed” h e l p i weep for the lack of brain cells 😭 it is so hard to just say “kataang isn’t my cup of tea” and go?? seriously?? i thought we were past making stuff up to support shipping agendas. lord help us. real quick:

This post explains how Aang never acted like he was “entitled” to Katara’s affections. This post explains how Katara and Aang do not “idolize” each other. This post and this post talk about Aang’s chakra being blocked and unblocked, and how it had to do with fear, not attachment. This post talks about Aang and the Avatar State, explicitly discussing “The Crossroads of Destiny” and the notion of attachment/letting Katara go.

okay, let’s take this claim one sentence at a time:

“the guru tells him [aang] he has to let go of her [katara] and he choses [sic] to break the connection.”

first of all. FIRST OF ALL. can you imagine the hellfire that would have rained down if aang hadn’t chosen to go rescue katara? here is a piece of the episode transcript:

… Right before he is able to completely open the final chakra and master the Avatar State, however, he hears a shriek from Katara and sees a vision of her in chains. At this, he jumps out of the energy sphere and runs away from the Avatar Spirit. The energy bridge that leads him there slowly vanishes behind him until it catches up and falls from underneath him, causing his image to plummet toward Earth. This cuts his connection to the Avatar State, which forces him back to reality.

Aang: Katara’s in danger! I have to go! [Prepares to exit.]

Pathik: No, Aang! By choosing attachment, you have locked the chakra! If you leave now, you won’t be able to go into the Avatar State at all!

Aang hesitates but leaves anyway, leaving Pathik concerned and disappointed.

aang chose to leave because katara was in danger. if he had chosen to stay,, dear god. the vitriol that would have been thrown around. “aang doesn’t really love katara! he chose not to save her!” “aang is so selfish and greedy! he chose power over love!” it’s literally a catch-22. damned if he does leave, damned if he doesn’t leave. #fandomlogic

anyways, yes, sure, aang chose to leave, which at the time broke the connection. he was indeed in avatar state limbo for a Hot Minute. whoop de do.

“it’s like: look what i did for you, you should stay with me.”

logical fallacy: ad hominem, hasty generalization, ∴ not worth our time 💛

“aang learning to let go would have been a [sic] evolution for his character”

i have amazing news for those who perpetuate this take. aang did let her go! he would not have been able to enter the avatar state in COD if he hadn’t! point blank, it is utterly untrue to pretend aang did not “let go” of his attachment to katara. now, im not going to get into the concept of “attachment” here and what it truly meant for aang to have “let katara go” in the book 2 finale (if it was good, bad, etc. etc.). there is a lot of material to work with there that would require like,, an entire post to dig into, if not more. the fact of the matter is that aang did let katara go, and the proof is that he successfully entered the avatar state before azula killed him. the above claim thus sits in complete contradiction to canon and is a moot point.

“making them stay together in the end just because aang is the protagonist and has to stay with the girl is boring and adds nothing to the plot”

“making them stay together” again, is it so hard for someone to just say “kataang isn’t my thing, im gonna stick to fanon pairings, but y’all have fun” i mean that really, really does not seem so difficult to me! also, “making” is a hilarious word to use just because,, atla is a work of fiction. in that respect, the writers “made” everything happen. you cannot escape their sphere of control.

anyways. that’s just funny to me lmao

but no, aang and katara did not get together in a romantic fashion just because aang was the lead male protagonist and katara was the lead female protagonist. i refer back to these posts from earlier:

This post and this post explain how Katara’s feelings for Aang develop throughout the series. This post explains how Aang consistently supported Katara throughout the series. This post demonstrates how Kataang is literally ingrained in every episode.

aang and katara got together because their relationship had been developed since episode 1, duh. reducing their relationship to “lead guy + lead girl” completely disregards the legwork done and the foundation laid for their romantic partnership. like, all someone has to do is rewatch the show 😂 and i hate to break it to whoever created that take, but to say kataang “adds nothing to the plot” again ignores how their relationship is one of the two most important in the show (the other being aang and zuko’s relationship as narrative foils). it is not a cheap coincidence that kataang embodies multiple complementary themes/motifs of atla: push and pull, yin and yang, air and water, oma and shu, etc. etc. their relationship adds emotional depth! how is that not relevant to the plot! atla is a show where just about every relationship is important in some regard (this post touches upon how aang alone transforms all of his friends - think of the bigger picture, then, and how every other dynamic weaves in a crucial thread to create the beautiful tapestry we call atla!).

my point is that kataang is relevant to the plot the way every relationship in atla is, whether or not someone ships/enjoys them. you cannot have a good show without having intimate relationships (emotionally, i mean). can you imagine if someone said zuko and iroh’s relationship wasn’t relevant to the plot?? there is a reason it is such a powerful moment when iroh and zuko reunite in the finale. similarly, there is a reason yue’s sacrifice and sokka’s consequential (and lasting) grief is so poignant. there is a reason it is so heartbreaking when katara and sokka have to leave behind their father at the beginning of tsr. to tie back to kataang, there is a reason it is so hard to watch katara dismiss aang in that same episode. there is a reason so many people are moved when katara pulls aang out of the avatar state when appa is stolen. there is a reason emotional reactions are incited during atla and it is because these relationships are so important!! i don’t care if someone thinks kataang is “boring” - that’s their opinion, they have a right to it. but to insist their relationship wasn’t relevant to the plot? to the story? when in fact it was a key component from episode 1?

are you kidding me?

“he spend years after a girl that never felt the same for him”

“years” lol doesn’t atla take place over the course of a year at most? pretty sure this person didn’t even watch the show 😂 for a third time, i refer to these posts:

This post and this post explain how Katara’s feelings for Aang develop throughout the series. This post explains how Aang consistently supported Katara throughout the series. This post demonstrates how Kataang is literally ingrained in every episode.

i hope i addressed these (nonsensical) arguments to your satisfaction, anon! a lot of them are the same tried-and-failed anti kataang arguments, smh. not to incite new discourse lmao, but it’d be nice if there was at least some variety 😂 thank you again for your kind words, my friend! 💛

[madtomedgar]

Fair, but using him as a weapon is probably too risky if you can't control who he kills. Keeping something barely contained through extreme methods isn't really comfortable. It was 100% jgs's decision to keep him... I didn't think there was any question there. And like. Corpse physics is. Stupid. But surely you could burn him? I assumed he hadn't burned Nie Mingjue because despite everything he still didn't hate him enough for that, not because fierce corpses are fireproof. I also... Jin Guangshan can get away with dabbling in demonic cultivation as an open secret, especially if he can plausibly blame all of it on his bastard if he needs an exit strategy. But even he lies and declares to everyone that they burned Wen Ning. I don't think Jin Guangyao would necessarily be confident that *he* could weather the scandal of Wen Ning's existence being known to all. He is at the height of his power but he's also still operating in a fairly paranoid style.

More relevant is that. Ok. You have a semi-sentient, ambulatory nuke in your basement and one day, it gets loose. Do you, A) devote all of your considerable faculties to finding it and getting it back under control, or, b) continue planning your upcoming event with your boyfriend, which is partially an excuse to spend a lot of sappy time together?

Like... Jin Guangyao is very competent and fairly paranoid (not unjustified) so Wen Ning's jailbreak should have been it! Between that, the arm, and Lan Wangji suddenly being all over Mo Xuanyu, how does he not get nervous enough to track things down and head them off? He sends Su Minshan to deal with the arm/baxia but that's... It.

And the answer is probably the author didn't think about it too much. Fair. But it's hard to make work for fanwork purposes. My current handwave is that Su Minshan was in charge of Wen Ning for some reason and just went "huh... Weird." when he broke loose, because that could be in character, imo.

Obviously I dont know that much and since I mostly work with cql my opinion of what does and doesn't make sense or is and isn't in character is like. Not anywhere near as valid as other people's but. Yeah.

like it absolutely makes sense to me that jgy would want to keep hold of wn’s fierce corpse because why would anyone let go of a weapon that grants them that much leverage in potential future negotiations, even if you can’t actually deploy it safely? wn is the nuclear option that jgy doesn’t intend to use—but, you know. never say never.

[potteresque-ire]

Not sure if this has circulated before, but here’s a link to Henry Jenkin’s reactions to 227, largely as responses to an interview he did with Sanlian Lifeweek magazine (三聯生活周刊), a publication modelled after TIME magazine and published under China Press Publishing group (中國出版集團), the largest and state-owned publisher in China. The magazine asked for Jenkin’s opinions on the fandom-related aspects of 227 back in March, 2020. Henry Jenkins, as many may already know, is among the most renowned scholars of (Western) fan culture ... if not the most renowned.

Personally, I find this article to be quite limited in perspective, because 227 had a significant non-fandom-oriented, sociopolitical component ~ and hence its scope, its chaos, its damage. IMO, 227 stopped being a fan war, stopped being about solos, cpfs, and even Gg the moment AO3 was shut down ~ the powerful Chinese state had intervened, and the incident necessarily became a political incident. That One Fic on AO3, the conflict between solos and cpfs about whether and where That Fic should exist was at most a lighter left at the scene of what would become the blaze; it wasn’t even responsible for igniting the first fire. Most i-turtles (i-fruits?) are probably aware too at this point: if fan wars are sufficient to start 227, then there wouldn’t have been a 227 ~ because 227 would have been every date of the year.

Fan culture is fundamentally transgressive, and what that means can only be defined in the context of the subculture’s “mainstream” sociopolitical and cultural environment. I therefore find the article’s attempt to transplant Western fan culture’s observations / theories / analysis / conclusions to the incident without explicitly comparing, addressing in depth the differences of the pre- and post-transplant environment to be ... prone to rejections (as organs are after transplantations!)—exclusion from being useful or valid. And this article was very short on such comparisons or address. Jenkins being a fandom expert aside (and he was careful about not treading outside his area of expertise), early “antis” of 227 presented themselves as crusaders for the freedom of speech and, by late March when this article was published, the heated debates surrounding the incident on Chinese social media had already led to embarrassment for multiple powerful state publications. It was probably a wise choice to not make another dive into the political aspects of the incident.

Being a new(-ish) turtle who joined the fandom a full half-year after 227, I’ve been backtracking, trying to really understand the incident, which remains very much beyond comprehension in many aspects. The discussions I’ve dug up that have most fascinated me have been those in non-fandom spaces, by non-fandomers / politics enthusiasts who barely knew who Gg was, who didn’t know That One Fic involved more than one idol and had zero knowledge about solos vs cpfs. In these discussions, “antis” are not referred to as “antis” because while the action of the so-called “227 coalition” was to kill Gg’s career, that wasn’t considered its ultimate goal ~ its ultimate goal was to warn whoever tried to clamp down the freedom of expression that their opposition was strong enough, populous to fight back and take away whatever, whoever those who attempted the clamp-down care the most about. In this case, “Gg fans”—I put this in quotes because eventually, no one would know who would lurk behind those pro-Gg Weibo IDs (and the anti-Gg ones as well)—were the perceived enemies of creative freedom. Gg, assumed to be the one, the symbol of what “GG fans” cared about the most, naturally became the target of the coalition.

Gg wasn’t special in that sense ~ and that was perhaps, the saddest thing I found about this incident as a Gg fan (without quotation marks); Gg could be any idol who achieved top fame at the moment, who had enough fans to make the point known. The coalition was therefore not “anti-Gg” in its ideological sense. It was anti the fan circle culture that had cemented Gg’s popularity, that had already been known to deal extremely poorly with dissent—complaints had been abound that c-ent was no longer fun for bystanders because the latter could issue no critique, not even doubt, about an idol without the fear of being reported, torn down by fans. The coalition eventually grew to include anti the many happenings, the many censorships and imprisonments in the past few years that had silenced the creative crowd in China, happenings people dared not speak about beyond a loud grumbling ...

The coalition tried to take down Gg, because they couldn’t take down the force that had shut down AO3, that was truly responsible for the silencing. They played the Hunger Games in the Weibo arena instead of challenging Who The Real Enemy Was, because some might not have given much thought about  The Enemy; some might have thought the Enemy too invincible to be worth the effort; some might have got too carried away by their blood thirst, the cruel schadenfreude of shredding a beautiful, successful young man into pieces, and forgot why they were there in the first place ... 

And that was only the political side of 227. 227 was also widely suspected to have a commercial component, which added another layer to the symbolism behind Gg the Idol ~ pretty much as soon as 227 happened, netizens investigated, tried to uncover the chain of capital behind Gg. With the scent of money was the memory of filth associated with it, in a country not exactly  unknown for its corrupt business practices. Much like in The Book of Exodus in the Bible, the Idol is believed to be forged with gold; it is ungodly, tainted. Whether Gg the Person was identical to Gg the Idol, Gg the Symbol mattered to few. That Gg *was* a person seemed lost to many ... 

I’ll have to dive into the non-fandom aspects of 227 with more rigour. As much as I'd love to leave 227 behind, every time I see Gg, I see its legacy on his face, in his smile, and perhaps, I’m not the only one ~ ADLAD cast him as Patient #5 because of 227′s effect on him. Put it another way, 227 is already modifying, writing Gg’s career trajectory ~ a trajectory that is undoubtedly under scrutiny by many who wish to duplicate his success but circumvent his pain. And every time I see a young idol—Gg, Dd, and anyone else—I wonder if the hurt of 227 can happen to them (again) because the crux of the incident has never been resolved; the oppression and silencing have remained strong as ever. 

Anyway (sorry for the rant) ... what I found noteworthy about this article was the quotes the magazine highlighted in its published form (in Chinese), which weren’t highlighted by Jenkins on his own website. They reflected what the magazine would like to be the take-home messages of the interview. I’ve listed them below; all of which had Jenkins as the speaker:

[Pie Note: About Real Person Fiction (RPF) in Western fandoms]

“American fans often do have some shared norms about what is and is not appropriate to write, mostly having to do with protecting the privacy of other people in the star’s life. Writing about the star is seen as fair game; writing about their family members is not.”

---

[Pie Note: About GG being “cast” as a transgender woman in The One Fic that started the incident; gender in fandom]

“We write fan fiction as a form of speculation and exploration. For some people, it may be one of the few spaces in the culture where they can express who they are, what they are feeling, what they are desiring. And for others, it is a place of “what if” where they explore in fantasy things they would not necessarily desire in reality.” 

---

[Pie Note: Whether GG should be held responsible for his fans’ behaviour]

“Under these circumstances, I would not hold a performer responsible for his fans’ behaviors but the performer is responsible for their own behavior and fans may respond negatively to performers who over-react to the existence of alternative fantasies and insult or hector their audiences.”    

---

[Pie Note: About AO3 and why fans were so upset about its closure] “Keep in mind that AO3 is a particular kind of platform. Alongside Wikipedia, AO3 is one of the greatest accomplishments of participatory culture in the digital era.”

---

[Pie Note: About the “problematic” content on AO3]

“Among my findings were that fan fiction sites can be a valuable space for young people to acquire skills (and receive feedback) on their writing from more experienced writers who share these same passions ... That said, while teens have participated in fandom, a large part of those on AO3 are adults, engaging in adult conversations on adult topics.”

---

[Pie Note: About media text in the new media era]

“First, I would stress the proliferation of media texts at the current moment ... We have access to a much broader range of media content than ever before and in this context, fans play a constructive role in curating that content, helping some shows get greater visibility ...  Second, these texts have become more malleable”

---

[Pie Note: About idols not producing “good” media texts]

“Rather, the question should be what are fans finding meaningful about these performers and the texts they generate. I start from the premise that human beings do not engage in meaningless activities. I may not immediately recognize why something is meaningful but my job as a scholar is to understand why cultural materials are meaningful to the people who cherish them.”

---

My understanding of this selection of quotes is this: this state publication (as others) was quite ready to forgive Gg, to put this incident behind. It could choose to not publish this interview; it could choose to leave out certain quotes, or not do the highlighting that cast both AO3 and Gg in a positive / innocent light. But it did all these things. This article furthers my impression that the state never intended 227 to blow up the way it did, and that it did—enough for stories about it to be found in non-China websites, and in English—was what I’m still trying to comprehend. 227 was, admittedly, how I was first introduced to Gg beyond Wei Wuxian. And as I got to know Gg, like Gg, my want to understand 227 only becomes stronger, perhaps because only through comprehension I feel I can find peace for the GG fan (again, without quotation marks) in me.

Maybe I should email Dr Jenkins and ask if he’s looking for a PhD candidate. 5 years of research and thinking ... maybe that’s what it’ll take. 

I feel I’ve already started anyway. 

[palmett-hoes]

wrote this at first to be a reply to this post by @annawrites but it got super long so i figured it would be better just to make it a standalone post

---

it’s a great post about how neil probably has a perfectly functional knowledge of popular culture and how continuously representing him as totally ignorant of it isn’t a fair read of his character or circumstances. neil has incredible street smarts and that involves knowing how to blend in and disappear in a crowd. his knowledge of popular culture is probably eclectic and not very american, so he may not know all the pop culture touchstones that his teammates know, but he definitely knows stuff

meanwhile there are several foxes it would actually make much more sense to have extremely limited or just similarly patchy knowledge of mainstream pop culture

(i’m using “mainstream pop culture” here to refer to a combination of movies, tv shows, celebrities, video games, entertainment and communication technology, music, fashion, pastimes, books, etc. each one has it’s own specific considerations but all together if it was new and popular and timely, it’s pop culture)

---

kevin, for one, i think definitely knows like, next to nothing, and i honestly think it’s weird that people decided neil was the “knows nothing about pop culture guy” rather than kevin. i mean, kevin was raised since childhood in an extremely insular and one-track-minded underground cult. he was literally raised under a rock! you think the ravens were taking the time to watch saturday morning cartoons and disney movies? absolutely not. like i truly do not believe that kevin has ever consumed media in his life. he does not know songs, movies, celebrities, video games, tv shows, nothing. and he also has absolutely no idea that he doesn’t know about these things. neil has a working knowledge of most things even if it has plenty of holes but he knows what the holes are. kevin genuinely does not know that the movie Titanic exists

(also i’m ragging a bit here but this is a genuine analysis and a fascinating way to view kevin’s character and i wish people took more time to think through and flesh out his influences and the effect they had on him)

---

nicky. son of a conservative christian pastor? his access to media was likely heavily censored to remove “sinful” and “ungodly” influences. the media he consumed probably had a heavy christian focus and there were probably tons of mainstream popular things he wasn’t allowed to even look at, like especially things that were maybe a little risqué or sexual, which a lot of 90s and 2000s pop culture was considered to be. i also wouldn’t be surprised if he went to a private christian school that would still keep his chances to access other influences limited even away from his parents’ immediate view. nicky grew up on christian rock and veggie tales. he was forbidden from going trick-or-treating because it was “satanic.” that vein. watch the movie Saved! (2004) to get a sense of what i’m picturing. obviously once he got away to germany he got the chance to branch out and experience a lot of things, but doing things as an adult is very different growing up with them as a child. i also think this feeds into like,, nicky’s enthusiasm and why he tries so hard to get everyone involved in things and get neil to hang out with him so much and it’s not because he pities neil for not knowing these things but rather that he himself is still enthralled by their novelty

---

dan. but also renee, seth, andrew, and possibly aaron to varying lesser extents. these foxes all grew up poor, and access to pop culture is heavily tied to having money, especially in the technology boom of the 90s and 2000s that the foxes came of age in. it’s common for kids from low-income families to be “behind” on popular culture because engaging with it costs money

dan and seth we know grew up in poverty. yes people need entertainment but money considerations have to take priority so what they had access to was probably very touch and go. it’s hard to pin down anything for sure because it just comes down to what their guardians prioritized, but i can say that i doubt they had cable (and it’s possible they didn’t have tv) so their tv influences would be public broadcast rather than like,, disney channel and nickelodeon. dan especially, as someone from the rural poor in north dakota is the one most likely to be out of the loop of mainstream pop culture imo

.

renee’s mother is implied to have also been involved with renee’s gang which makes it really hard to pin things down. gangs and other forms of organized crime tend to have a profit motive but because it’s mostly off the books it’s just,,, different. they may had some money but it’s,,, complicated, and she was still living in an impoverished neighborhood. i really can’t make any guesses about it because i just don’t have any context for it, but i think it’s fair to say her media influences wouldn’t have been entirely mainstream pop culture. then of course she spends a year in juvy and two years in the foster care system, which definitely has very limited access to pop culture

.

andrew being in the foster care system means that his influences were constantly changing. he could have been in houses from a wide range of economic means, but regardless he probably wasn’t treated well or given gifts or access to new toys or anything that requires an additional fee or tool to access. stories from kids who lived in foster care often reveal that even very wealthy houses enforce extreme limitations on their foster kids. the idea that andrew had a foster sibling with a gameboy, an xbox and a tv in their room while andrew himself didn’t even have a bed,,, isn’t outside the realm of possibility. so, probably no video games or internet. limited choice in what movies or tv shows he could watch. social services are wildly underfunded so what he had access to in group homes and “at-risk youth groups” was probably pretty dated

.

we don’t know much about tilda, especially things like her job, but we know aaron grew up in san jose which is one of the most expensive cities/housing markets in the world. this means that they were probably either rich or very poor. personally, i think they were probably poor, which means aaron would have been subject to the same sorts of things as dan or seth in terms of spotty or inconsistent access to a lot of things in popular culture

---

so yea, ig just remember that each fox comes from different and complicated circumstances, that upper-middle-class pop culture experiences are not universal, and it’s weird to think that neil has absolutely no concept of pop culture at all while every other fox is apparently highly in tune with it and all have the same up-to-date experiences

[himboarcher]

reasons i've seen folks say that grad critics hate grad:

they hate travis (in fairness, i’ve def seen some comments of people shitting on trav for the sake of shitting on trav, but it’s not super common and typically gets downvoted into oblivion on reddit.)

it's not balance / travis isn't griffin (???????)

they hate neurodivergent people (again, in fairness, i have seen a handful of comments that could come across this way! but most of the time when travis being ADHD or his NPD is brought up, it's by defenders saying that criticizing travis is ableist because he's neurodivergent or, in one particular comment, infantilizing him bc of it and literally comparing grad to putting a kid's artwork on the fridge. there were some comments early on that pointed to him being a narcissist as the reason for things people disliked about grad, but everyone seems to have realized that that's a shitty train of thought and left it behind.)

they're just toxic haters (again, there are a small handful of people like this because this is the internet, but the genuine criticism greatly outweighs their bullshit. i 100% think that the people, which is mostly just one dude who is also insufferable on reddit, who have been responding rudely to positive tweets under the episode announcements lately are out of line and need to stop. there's been an influx of that lately, presumably because people are frustrated that after over a year of grad going on, there's been no improvement to most of the major issues. that's still no excuse to be a dick to folks, though.)

vs some of the actual reasons i don't like grad:

the racism / racist tropes, and the way that they’ve straight up ignored this criticism and will likely never acknowledge it. pretty wild considering a core tenet of their brand is their willingness to acknowledge when they’ve messed up and do their best to course correct.

clumsy attempts at inclusion that are shallow and often end up being fairly offensive ("...ask me about my wheelchair," anyone?)

on a related note: i don't think that travis had bad intentions, but as an nonbinary person, it feels othering to me that travis only has enby characters give others their pronouns unprompted. i'm thinking specifically of kai here. having listened to their introduction, i don't think it's as bad or awkward as some people have said, but i can't remember travis ever having another NPC tell the PCs their pronouns, especially not a cis character. it's not a huge deal, but it's something that rubbed me the wrong way. admittedly, i don't think it would bother me so much if travis hadn't dropped the ball so much with performative inclusion in the past.

okay i'm putting the rest under a read more because even without getting into all of the problems i have with it, this got Long.

little to no player agency. player choices are ultimately meaningless and have little to no effect on the world. even when he seems to go along with a plan they come up with, it always ends with them having to go back to travis' pre-written script (see: subpoenaing the xorn, but not really because they had to go with travis' original plan of "send the xorn home through the rift".) the players repeatedly get told things about what they think or feel or what they've been doing to an unnecessary degree. fitzroy is the only one who really gets space to play and decide things for himself, and that's only because travis has decided he's the main character.

the NPCs are all too nice and willing to give the PCs anything they ask for and more, unless the PCs are trying to follow their own plan and then the NPCs are completely useless. but honestly, aside from gray, all of the NPCs are just.... nice. travis refuses to even let his antagonists be mean or cruel or even more than just slightly rude, because that'd be a bummer and we don't want that! the "twist" of gordy the lich king actually being polite and chill is not a twist at all because everyone is like that in this world. the NPCs are also wildly overpowered, but then suddenly absolutely useless when the PCs actually want their help.

too many cliffhangers that are dropped immediately at the beginning of the next episode. i feel bad for travis because so many of these cliffhangers actually set up good momentum and seemed like things were gonna get interesting, but almost every single time he just dropped them at the beginning of the next episode. like when althea showed up to interview the boys and the next episode started with travis being like "actually you went to sleep, she said she'll be back tomorrow!"

that time travis specifically said in his exposition dump that the thundermen left their horses behind because they thought the centaurs might be offended by them riding horses, only to later on rag on them for being surprised that the centaurs had horses they could ride.....

also the centaur arc in general, but i already listed racism above, so.

the way that the toxic positivity and parasocial tendencies in the mcelroy fandoms have made a large portion of the fandom take ANY criticism as a personal attack on travis and/or on themselves for enjoying something others consider bad, either morally or just quality-wise. it’s okay to admit that something you like has problematic elements or just isn’t as good as it once was. you can and should engage critically with the media you consume.

related to above: the way travis has handled genuine criticism, which is to throw public tantrums on his twitter or make weird passive aggressive tweets & ultimately ignore all the genuine criticism and advice he's been offered by claiming it's all subjective, even after he specifically asked for it and set up an email for folks to send in genuine, objective advice for him (after he threw a tantrum on twitter and replied to someone's criticism publicly, which resulted in his followers dogpiling on that person bc how dare they insult their internet best friend). while i was writing this last night, he actually announced that he’s taking a break from Twitter and acknowledged that he’s been using it as an echo chamber where he can easily get validation from folks, and honestly i’m happy for him that he’s recognized this problem and is stepping away for a while! i hope he’ll genuinely use this time to reflect on how he’s been behaving and find a more healthy way to use social media. i’m leaving this point in because i think his Twitter being such a positive echo chamber was encouraging him to do stuff like this, and him somewhat acknowledging his behavior doesn’t mean it can no longer be discussed.

rainer. extremely cool concept in theory and i was very into it until that awkward "does anyone want to ask about my wheelchair?" moment. also when travis had her use her mobility aid to RAM INTO A DOOR instead of just fucking knocking???? also all the times travis has tried to force a romantic relationship between her and fitzroy, despite fitzroy displaying no interest in her in that way. also, just to clarify: as an ace person, i don’t think this is aphobic! (and it’s kind of a stretch to call it that imo, especially since griffin never explicitly said that fitzroy's aromantic!) i just think it’s weird and awkward and a little uncomfortable for me personally, mostly because it reminds me of the times i’ve been in similar situations.

less of a problem than a lot of the other stuff and more just bad writing, but the forced emotional moments. in general, nothing in grad feels earned (why are the boys heading a war? when they have multiple actual heroes with combat experience on their side and a supposedly powerful secret organization? and the thundermen are like 21 years old max and have only had like ~10 fights in the entire campaign?) but there've been a couple times where travis has tried to force unearned emotional moments, presumably because he knows people enjoyed those with the last campaigns. but the difference is that in balance, the big emotional moments happened because they were earned. in grad, it's just travis throwing a baby pegasus at us for a few minutes and then the next time she shows up, it's supposed to be a tearful goodbye.

there are absolutely no stakes. remember when the thundermen got told that if they left, gray would kill 10 students? and then they left and came back and it turns out that what gray actually meant was, "i'll tie ten students who are mostly nameless NPCs to a tree and throw some dogs at them that you can easily stop in time, then throw a tantrum because how dare you but i'll leave before you can really do anything to hurt me lol" travis did have fitzroy's magic get taken away, but like. it didn't really do anything? also all he had to get it back was be coerced into using drugs by an authority figure and trip in the woods?

we're told that the school is weird and the hero system is corrupt, but the world of nua is still presented as more of a liberal utopia than anything? althea getting fired because of a corrupt villain is the only time we've somewhat seen corruption, but even then, she was still allowed to get (what seems to me, anyway, but admittedly i don't know for sure bc nothing about the HOG makes much sense) a fairly important job from the very people who stripped her of her hero license or whatever the fuck heroes need?

travis doesn't actually seem to understand how capitalism or bureaucracy works and just chalks up everything to "red tape." also more on the rest of the boys than him specifically, but the "let's destroy capitalism!" thing turning into just pushing some filing cabinets over................... okay.

and one last piece of extremely subjective criticism: it's just kind of.... boring. i think a lot of people, myself included, would be willing to overlook 90% of the problems with graduation if it didn't feel like such a slog to get through.

also people saying that we can't or shouldn't criticize graduation because it's "free" is absolutely absurd for several reasons. first, something being free does not make it above criticism. second, there ARE people who directly financially support the show with monthly donations. three, there's a difference between something being free and something being not for profit. podcasting is their full time job. they make their living off of money made from TAZ and MBMBAM (and probably their other shows to a lesser extent). this not a fun home game that they are graciously recording and sharing with us. it is a product they are producing that they make money off of, both from ads in the episodes and merch & books based off of these podcasts. they have marketed themselves as professionals, and both griffin and travis have been on panels where they are marketed as professional DMs and appear alongside other professional DMs (which makes it incredibly frustrating when people say that travis is just a newbie DM and we can't criticize him because of that. if he's a newbie, then he should not be taking part of panels as a professional DM where he speaks as an expert). TAZ is free in the same way that an episode of NCIS is free. i may not pay for it directly, but the creators are paid to create it and profit off of me consuming this product. so saying we should be grateful for any mcelnoise that the benevolent good boys share with us and that we're not allowed to criticize it "because it's free" is absolutely wild.