#zoe salt

[927roses-and-stuff]

So I stumbled into the pit that is ML salt for the first time in a while and @geekgirles post about Lila's character assassination made me realize something:

Zoé isn't just a character full of Chloe's potentially good traits, she's also who fans wished Lila was all the way back in seasons 1-2 (and maybe still? idk).

Let's take a look at who Zoé is as a character:

New girl from another country with connections who acts differently around other people and exaggerates aspects of her life for attention and friendship. She wants attention and friends because her mom is neglectful (and possibly worse), and isn't around enough to give her the attention she needed and craved growing up. She has a potential to be a Miraculous hero and possibly has romantic tension with Marinette.

...Is that literally not who fanon!Lila was back when Volpina first aired and everyone was talking about her? Like quite literally, the only difference is that Lila hates Ladybug and likes Marinette whereas Zoé has no reason to hate Ladybug. (Also I'm not sure if Lila's mom was ever portrayed to be worse than neglectful).

Yes, now canon and fanon versions of Lila are demons from hell who need to have consequences for lies and wrongdoings but Lila's potential became the basis for Zoé's character, and any character growth and development for Lila went out the window and now she has 3 moms who presumably don't know about this triple life, I guess???

I mean, in the end, they ended up both being bland and I can't even get excited for fics where Lila faces consequences because she's an anonaly who doesn't matter in canon, and Zoé is essentially more of a prop than character. But still, they really took a look at what fans wanted, plucked the ideas with potential and gave them to a new character that didn't need to exist.

[pro-bee-sisters]

You know another thing I hate about Chloe's wasted potential? She had more connections to the Bee Miraculous than fucking Zoe ever did!

You guys know how the Bee Miraculous is meant to represent growth and hardwork, right? Well, that's exactly what Chloe was going through during Season 2! Yes, she fucked up a couple of times, but that was the point! Her arc in Season 2 was supposed to show that she can change, but with baby steps . Hell, it's not her fault no one told her that change takes time and it's hard to break old habits. Even Marinette said that it was gonna take baby steps to help her change.

But what change or growth does Zoe go through?

Zoe gets no development whatsoever! Her only "growth or change" is her saying "Hey family, fuck you! I ain't gonna bow down and kiss your asses no more! I'm a proud Pick Me girl, bitches!" UwU Okay, admittedly Zoe is far from a pick me. But still.

Basically, that's another main problem I had with her. Chloe actually shows that she is worthy of it despite her entitlement. She does want to change. She just doesn't know how. Zoe is just given the Miraculous because... nice girl.

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

I was legit just scrolling through Tumblr and I came across

THIS

ABOMINATION

Who tf is that??? He literally looks like a 30-year-old man flirting with a teenager 😬. I've also seen him compared to being a genderbent Chloe and I can't unsee it. The snarky expression, hair parted in the middle, SUNGLASSES

Also, the Bee Miraculous? It looks like a tiny depiction of a *ahem* certain male anatomy 😭

Wtf is going on

This is apparently a guy named Ray who transferred to Paris from New York. He is presumably here to be the new Chloe only he's Zoe's bully and not Marinette's because the writers are obnoxiously obsessed with developing Zoe instead of the characters who actually need development.

Can we please stop trying to make fetch happen? Develop the characters that have been here since day one or who actually have ties to the leads/the plot! Zoe does not need a side plot to make her extra special!

People complain about Marinette getting special treatment, but she's the freaking main character. Her being special makes sense. This is just weird because the only other side character who gets this kind of thing is Alya, the lead's bff. Why is Zoe getting all this special treatment?

My best guess is that this was added to distract from the things they should get development, but that the writers don't want to deal with in a timely manner because they need to fill at least three more seasons. Hard to know for sure until the season is done.

[ml-salt-central]

Random thing but Zoe being canonically into girls is the equivalent of putting a toothpick with the lesbian flag on a slice of white bread, it still has no flavor or substance, it just has a neat decoration

[red-balloon12]

I will never stop thinking about how Zoe has a crush on Marinette but she’s also supposed to be Chloe’s replacement.

I don’t think this just meant as the bee holder. I think this meant for a lot of things.

Being Andre’s new daughter, being the star for that movie.

The only thing Zoe hasn’t completely replaced Chloe in is being Adrien’s childhood bf.

So….with all of this being said…

DOES THIS IMPLY THAT CHLOE ACTUALLY MIGHT HAVE HAD A CRUSH ON MARINETTE AND IF CHLOE GOT HER REDEMPTION, WE COULD HAVE SEEN A CONFESSION FROM HER??? I-

This means that Thomas knew about the popular headcanon that Chloe was sapphic and was secretly in love with Marinette/Ladybug. HE TOOK THAT ISH AWAY FROM CHLOE AND GAVE IT TO ZOE-

[hamstersnamedmarinette]

I know it's been a minute and I'm not going to watch it again bc I'll roll my eyes too hard if I do BUT I'm still confused by the end scene of Daddycop when that grown ass man in a school uniform threatens to expose Zoe's past to her friends as if she didn't literally introduce herself to everybody with "hi I'm Zoe and I PRETENDED to be a BULLY but I'm ACTUALLY a LOSER whom EVERYBODY at my OLD school BULLIED FIRST"

[jennycinco-5]

" You need to be patient because Season-X will be better "

" You need to be patient because the show is not over and there are 6969 Season that coming soon "

" Season-W maybe bad but I believe they will fix it in Season-X "

" There are MORE season guys... sooo~ wait for Season X, Y, Z "

" I still optimist because other writer will redeem it in next Season "

Maaaan~ Just shut up and stop being dumb to give a hope for a shit-show will be redeem like you already know the past season already PLENTY inconsistency, retcon and so-on, with the writer doesn't give a shit about criticism because he believe his fans are brainless shipper and young kids so who cares about consistency as long as your ship is sail in WORSE way possible.

They will "Redeem" it by stealing the fan theory, fanfiction, fanart, retcon the show, make unnecessary "multiverse" by claim it as "already planned it from beginning"

" If you hate it so don't watch it "

Alright, I already leave the show and doesn't give a fuck about the show or your headcanon to prove how "deep" the shit show it is

[m3nt4llyr4v3d]

I kinda wish Zoe and Chloe interacted more

I’m going to be real, I have absolutely no opinions on Zoe as a character. I desperately wish I could love or hate her, but for as much as the show wants you to like her, they barely utilize her and her relationship with the Bourgeois family

One way this shows is with her relationship with her sister. You remember, back around the beginning of season 4 where Zoe said that she’d always love her sister despite everything? And how what she says implies she’d try to have some type of relationship with her?

Where is that?

They rarely interact in seasons 4 and 5, from what I remember. And then in season 5, she’s just all too happy to have Chloe leave! I’d be slightly more okay with it if they had more moments of Zoe trying and failing to connect with her sister throughout the show (tell don’t show and all), and came to the conclusion that she’s putting in all the work when she doesn’t need to. I’d actually love that! But the show doesn’t do anything with them!

You remember back in the season 4 finale when we saw a shot of them together looking scared at the fact that Hawkmoth got this powerful? Chloe looking scared? What happened with that? Why were they even together in this scene if the show’s not going to do anything with their relationship, not even to set up Chloe’s fall due to her lashing out at her sister when she’s trying to connect?

Their lack of any relationship, even the lack of a nonexistent relationship with one sided animosity kind of makes the whole “Zoe sitting back smiling while her sister gets sent off with her horrible mother and her stepdad(?) adopting her right after” a little strange?? Zoe lived with Audrey for years, knows exactly how terrible she is, and she’s completely fine with this? Even if she gave up on Chloe, you’d think she’d look a little conflicted about all of this?

[jeankirsteind]

Fanon!Chloes when she finds her OG creator did to her in the canonverse:

Well, just a little catharsis after finding out that guy is still involved in the next season even has full control and I hear the rumour there’ll be more mentally abuse for her both from Chrysalis, Audrey and our goodie heroes & sister who’s gonna giving speech no jutsu :3

[fandomsarebrainless]

It's pathetic that this show hates Chloé so much that they give her ABUSERS more sympathy than Chloé herself. The same goes to certain fans (looking at you @hufflepotato18). If Chloé is supposed to be responsible for her actions than the parents of this show should be held accountable for their shitty parenting.

[theerurishipper]

do you think Zoe as a character is a necessary for the plot?

I lover her design but as far I can see her character doesn't seems to be necessary for the story, at all. I thought at first she'd be a challenge for Chloe to finally become better, especially after the play they did in Queen Banana. I thought with Chloe break of her friendship with Adrien that would be the time for her to slide in and try to be a sister/friend for her which will create a positive characrer development for Chloe.

But as the story progress I feel like she doesn't seems like to make impact on Chloe's life and it seems like she doesn't even interact with Chloe much, she instead hang out with Marinette and end up become another generic character added for the sake for increasing Marinette's harem and I don't know, a better bee holder who wouldn't talk back to Ladybug or demanding thing from her perhaps? Because this show has allergies toward character who challenge Marinette's morality.

I mean if the reason why they added Zoe is just for the sake for a new bee holder, I don't see a reason why they can't use Aurore or Mirriele since they already have unique model. Being from different class doesn't stop Marc to be a miraculous holder after all. If she's added for the sake of lesbian representation, we have JuleRose already. So why is she here?

Honestly? Zoe is one of the most useless characters in the show. She only really exists so that the writers can fit her into whatever role they need to progress the plot, because she doesn't have any established characterization. I do like her design, but that's really about all I can say. She's just such a non-entity to me.

Her first episode was actually quite interesting to me personally. A character who tries to hide her true self and lies in order to be accepted by her peers? Interesting stuff! I dig characters like that. Her being all nice and friendly with Marinette at first and then switching instantly to becoming mean and cruel? How intriguing! What a good way to establish a character! This could be the start of a really good character journey in which Zoe learns that she doesn't have to put on these roles to be accepted, culminating with her earning the Bee Miraculous as a fully established character!

But there was no character arc. There was no arc, no nothing she just... got over it thanks to one speech and got the Bee Miraculous in the next episode and then descended into obscurity. She could have been so much. Imagine how it could have been if we had gotten to explore her character. Like, maybe she could have caused the akuma on her first day instead of being the one to be akumatized. This could have set up everyone else disliking her while leaving Marinette wondering why she seems so different from before, and it could have started Zoe off on the path of realizing she didn't want to put on an act to please bad people and be accepted by them because she didn't want to hurt other people, actually.

Over the course of the season, maybe we could learn about what exactly happened in her old school through a proper backstory and not just an exposition dump. We could learn about why she is the way she through exploring her relationships with her father and her mother. We could have her grow through her interactions with others and her observing Marinette with her friends, and we could have watched her slowly realize that she maybe doesn't want to put on an act anymore and that she just wants to be accepted for herself. This way, we could actually get to see her act this way and understand why she is the way she is, and have her motivation be revealed in a natural and compelling manner, instead of just having it all be dumped onto us in her debut episode.

Then we could have the obligatory akuma, which lets Marinette know that there's more to Zoe after all. Maybe Marinette tries to reach out to Zoe after that. Maybe this leads to Zoe learning what real and true friendships are really like and leads to her finding people whom she can be herself with and who will accept her unconditionally. Maybe we could actually see her hanging out and bonding with everyone and actually watch the scenes with stuff like Rose and Juleka helping her dye her hair instead of it being relegated to an end-of-the-episode montage. They could have used those sneakers of hers more. Those were an interesting and compelling aspect of her character, considering the fact that she would write down the nice things people said about her on it. Maybe we could have a scene of her doing that with her new friends. And maybe after this, she gets the Bee Miraculous, and being able to help Ladybug like this inspires her to help others the way Marinette helped her, which makes her reach out to Chloe, thus letting her true self shine through completely, and this could also prompt a gradual change in Chloe.

I'm just throwing out some scenarios here and I don't claim that I'll do a better job of anything, but I really do think that the reason Zoe's character suffers is because of the abysmal pacing. They set up something interesting with her and then resolved it in one episode, which made her character dull and boring for any other time she's on screen. If they had stretched it out over the course of the season, she would have been way more interesting. As it is, she has nothing going for her.

From a writing perspective, Zoe has the most generic personality ever. She's nice and kind, just like every other character in the show. Any interesting facets to her character or any meaningful conflict she could have faced is fixed in her introductory episode and never seen again, and she herself only ever appears in the background of other episodes along with the rest of Marinette's classmates, contributing nothing of value. Her relationship with Chloe and her promise to always love her? Forgotten. Her conflict about not wanting to put on an act? Somehow, she just... got over it in one day and was always just her authentic self from then on. Like, name one character trait about Zoe that you can't say about anyone else. Even the rest of the class, obscure as they are, have more defined personalities and quirks than she does.

Zoe is literally just there, and the writers pity her sometimes, so they give her stuff to do. And you can't really say any of them don't make sense for her character, because she doesn't really have one beyond the base traits of nice and good. So you need a replacement Chat Noir? Zoe. Need representation? Zoe. There's no real reason for any of this to be her, it just happens to be her... because. Like you said, this could have been done by characters who were already here. We could have had our lesbian rep from Julerose, we could have had Nino for the Black Cat. There's nothing of value that Zoe as a character brings to any of these things, it just so happens to be her because she has nothing else going for her, and because her personality is so underdeveloped and practically non-existent that anything goes. And also Kagami would have been a better choice for both of these things no seriously this is Kagami erasure this is Kagami slander justice for Kagami.

And it really does suck, because Zoe could have been an interesting character. Her character premise was genuinely compelling. But then she just got reduced to another classmate who hangs around helping Marinette confess and to another one of Ladybug's team. All her scenes are just comparing her to Chloe and going "oh Chloe bad Zoe good." There is nothing Zoe has going on for herself. She's really just there to be a replacement for Queen Bee. And this would have been fine if the writing organically and naturally inserted her into the role by fleshing out her character and relationships with Marinette/everyone else. But she has virtually no development or character and most of her scenes are used to beat it down our skulls that Chloe is Evil and Zoe is Good, so root for Zoe, guyz!

They are so insistent on shoving the Zoe is the Good Chloe agenda down our throats that they have characters act OOC just for that. Somehow, being talked down to in front of the school doesn't make Marinette doubt Zoe in any way, shape or form. Instead, the blame is placed on Chloe for corrupting her. Andre suddenly decides to grow a spine and stop enabling his daughter, and once again Zoe is supported and praised and Chloe is condemned (I'm not saying it was wrong for Chloe to be told off, just that it coming from Andre of all people just makes it part of the problem because it's so OOC). They even had Plagg go out of his way to compliment Vesperia over Queen Bee like, five seconds after he's seen her for the first time, even though Plagg never compliments anyone so quickly or so much, not even Adrien. They had Plagg spend the whole of Deflagration kissing Zoe's feet and praising her constantly even though he would never do so while he offers to Cataclysm Chloe! He would not fucking say that.

Honestly, when it comes to others interacting with Zoe and the conversation actually being about her instead of about Marinette, it just results in more comparisons to Chloe and how Zoe is sooooooo much better than her. Even the episode focusing on Zoe and her feelings has a Chloe subplot that basically takes over the whole thing so that they can be compared.

And I am self-admittedly not a Chloe stan. I am not particularly fond of her. But I also don't like being told what to think, and I don't like how the narrative tries so hard to make us hate Chloe and like Zoe without developing either of them or letting us come to our own conclusions. Zoe isn't given anything of her own. Either she is being whatever the writers want her to be or she is being Chloe but Good or she is being Marinette's newest wingman. They could have explored so much about her. They could have fleshed out her struggles and her backstory. They could have done something with that set up in Queen Banana between Zoe and Chloe's relationship. They could have explored Zoe's new relationships (the Zoe/Lila parallels practically write themselves, as does the Adrien-Zoe friendship). They could have elaborated more on her dream of being an actress. But they didn't. They just kept comparing her to Chloe whenever anything had to do with her, and her character suffered for it.

Zoe could have been her own character in her own right, and she did not need to be bogged down by being forever labelled "Chloe's replacement," but the show didn't let her grow beyond that initial label and now it's pretty much stuck forever. Honestly, she deserved better.

Thank you for your ask!

[western-magical-girl-confessions]

“I almost never end up hating one character in a show I love, but Zoe Lee absolutely pisses me off. I hate saying it, but she is the biggest Mary-sue I’ve ever seen. She showed up out of nowhere to take Chloe’s miraculous, never does anything wrong, and is instantly loved by everyone in the cast. Plagg choosing *her* out of everyone to get the cat miraculous is insane! He knew her for maybe a week at that point, and the amount of affection he showed her was completely out of character. 

It doesn’t help that she takes advantage of Chloe being abused by their mother, how are we supposed to root for someone like that?! The fact that she has the first lgbt confirmation in the show infuriates me. Rose, Juleka, Marc, and Nate have been waiting in the background for literal years. The show ruined Chloe’s character and replaced her with someone who is worse in every way. I haven’t watched the finale yet, but from what I’ve heard it only gets worse.”

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

Just wanted to point out about your post about Zoe, according to the MLB trading cards Zoe’s school was the school from the NYC special. Her only friend that wrote on her shoes was Jess, the Sparrow.

(Post that spawned this ask)

I give you genuine thanks for the "fun" fact, but by the gods is that asinine. This is not the kind of thing you save for a fun fact! It's the kind of thing you put in the actual show to give us a good story! Just, why??? Zoe didn't even get a cameo in the special!!! It's like they only had the idea after the fact and now they're trying to claim credit for the thing they completely failed to do. I just, gahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

[gif description: the Marvel character Thor angrily flipping a table full of food, sending it scattering across the floor.]

[noirshitsuji]

1, 3, 6 and 7 for Choose Violence ask game?

oh boy ok

i was gonna go down the funny route with this to like not offend ppl but honestly i have only been back for very little so can't really do that sdfhsdjkf

i'm gonna preface this by saying that this is very much my /impressions/ of fandom that are probably not up to date and stuff, but as this is a violence game etc etc. the only real harsh part is for 6 i'd say

(1) the character everyone gets wrong - I could pick a bunch here but Nino and Alya both as a tie I think? I'm not sure how common it is across the board rn but I feel like there are (or used to be) ways in which Alya gets reduced down to 'sassy/confident/reliable BFF' for Marinette and Nino's anxious tendencies get overlooked in favour of him being the chill/supportive BFF for Adrien

(3) screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr - i mean. the adrien salters. you know the ones sdhfsjkf this post isn't long enough

(6) which ship fans are the most annoying? - u know. i was gonna say that anyone who fights over which side of the ls the best/gets repped the most/any kind of comparative ls discourse drives me up the wall.

but actually i will choose violence and say specifically that back in the day (i hope it is now in the past) a bunch of the ladrien shippers definitely needed to go out and touch some grass. i remember seeing ppl say things with reference to ladrien that can only be interpreted as 'salt' by someone who's never eaten anything seasoned but that have caused ppl to react with tirades of the 'woe is my ship' variety and start up discourse for nothing

(7) what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them? - i can honestly say i hate no character but (and i know you will not like this answer coco) im not particularly attached to zoe and don't really see why ppl are. same w/ lila tbh; nothing against either of them otherwise (and i find interpretations on lila's lying tendencies interesting, even), but not my blorbos. im not against becoming attached (and i haven't watched s5 so there's space for that i assume) but yes

[jeankirsteind]

HAHAHAHA, those buffoons still haven't stopped tracing the other people's work. Fun fact, this isn’t the first time they’re doing that. I’m remember when those buffoons were using fan art who showing Juleka was dye hair Chloe and they’re using it to saint parasite mary sue like Zoe.

@claws-and-bee-stings

@erisluna35 @generalluxun

THE PICTURE OF ADRIEN AS A CHILD IN THE MIRACULOUS LADYBUG MOVIE IS TRACED FROM A BOSS BABY RENDER OF TIM IVE KNOWN THIS FOR MONTHS

[zoe-oneesama]

Between Fu and Su Han who do you feel is a worse mentor. In my opinion, Su Han is the worst, because all he does is turn up and get mad about something. He's like a Karen teacher. What are your thoughts?

Oh Su Han is CLEARLY worse! Fu, while definitely making a lot of weak choices, only had himself and kwamis to bounce off of to make those choices. He had incomplete, very bizarre training, and did at least TRY to protect the Miraculouses in his possession.

What did Su Han even do? Harass an old man, harass a little girl, taught the current guardian NOTHING, not even that neat little chant that ward off an akuma despite being the angriest mothafucka ever (which Marinette would probably greatly benefit from, you would think!), and then not even show up for...ANY of the akuma fights, let alone the one that won Hawkmoth ALL the Miraculouses!

He's a waste of space and waste of time, the whole Order was! I have problems with Fu, as long time readers no doubt know, but at least he was trying! Su Han can't even say that.

And he got off too easy for that.