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This isn’t a salt or critical post. I just wanted to note at the increase of people defending chaggie. I haven’t seen a single anti-chaggie post in a while and maybe that has to do with me filtering things for myself. Maybe there has been posts and I just have them blocked. But to the people out here calling out the hateful bs and trying to explain the ship to the critics, thank you for your service. I appreciate you, immensely.

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Felt that shit.

With Hazbin Hotel I’m really just here for Charlie, Vaggie, Velvette, and Lilith.

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As much as I wanna argue “but women are more emotionally mature than men-“

Sometimes…they aren’t. Sometimes women are just as emotionally messed up as men and they need time- And sometimes…it’s just the bc of being disaster sapphics

I have to speak my truth now: Franziska and Maya would not get together before Phoenix and Miles do. Absolutely not. They take just as long or even longer. They do not have the benefit of being childhood friends on them. Maya is fawning after Franziska's strength and dedication and how mature and smart she is at Phoenix and Miles' wedding, while Franziska is that womaning Maya at least eight times a week while at work. Phoenix and Miles should be wingmaning them.

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This wouldn’t have been a problem if people just didn’t complain how slow she was years ago.

me explaining why Amy should be a power character not a speed character

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The secret is that….there is no lore- All of the ego lore that exists is made up by the fandom and whatever that is the majorly consistent headcanon becomes the lore (despite myself deviating heavily from those common Headcanons.) The only thing that is actually confirmed by Nate himself is that Phantom’s cane hides a sword. Sure you can look up the music videos but those videos are just about it-

My boy!!!!!! Look at him!!!!!

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If I’m not mistaken they are actually doing four seasons. And I think Seasons 3&4 got greenlit.

I’m sleep deprived so imma ramble

I know a lot of people were upset about Vaggie being an Exorcist when it was officially revealed but honestly it would’ve been the best writing decision IF it actually tested Charlie character. And it DOES in the show but only for a single episode and at no point was anyone fearing for their relationship let’s be honest. I personally believe they should’ve gone in to detail on how it impacted BOTH of them.

Like in the beginning of one of the episodes they literally have husk point out the main cast’s writing tropes, I know they were on a time crunch but dayyum. He calls her a bleeding heart but we really don’t get to see that in the show, maybe I’m just ignorant though.

Anyway- they have her focus on the ‘she lied to me’ aspect of the betrayal which yeah, that would hurt coming from someone she trusted with everything which is solid I can’t argue against that. But I think they dropped it too soon, they should’ve dove into the implications of trust and show more properly how that made her second guess herself more.

God I guess I just wished they gave chaggie more time to shine cause that ship has so much fucking potential. A lot of people seem to forget it’s not just the getting together and the touchy romantic shit that makes a relationship, it’s their dynamic, like wouldn’t have been more compelling if we got to see how they solve issues together? Like hell yeah power couple!

UH BUT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT TRUST, so-when I say ‘they should’ve showed her second guessing herself’ I mean like she should’ve second guessed EVERYTHING she’s ever thought’s on everyone. I’m not saying she should’ve become like aggressive but there should’ve been visible doubt of her stance with everyone.

Like surprised they didn’t call into question whether or not Vaggie was using her to get back into heaven. Obviously she’s not but imagine Charlie thought that for even a moment, ALL the bad things she was feed about angels from her father FROM VAGGIE comes to the forefront and of her mind and a bit of angel prejudice shines through. Maybe she’s driven to DRASTIC ASSUMPTIONS about everyone around her, the people she knows, or she thinks she knows them. Maybe they’re all like Vaggie and she made a mistake giving them the benefit of doubt and of course she scorns herself for thinking these ‘horrible things’. Like I said I wish they would’ve gave her more time to dwell on the doubt.

With said doubts she is suddenly very aware of the situation she’s in with Alastor but she’s backed into a corner. Alastor being Alastor would definitely feed these doubts, MANIPULATION TIME. He still convinces her that only he can help her and she takes the deal because she’s not gonna abandon her friends, using her or not she’s not letting them die without a fight. Cause let’s be honest this is Charlie they could’ve shot her damn dog goats and she’d still defend them lmao.

What was the point of this post again?

…

OH I guess what I’m saying is I want this bitch to have some trust issues but ultimately CHOOSE to still have faith in her people.

2nd unpopular opinion vaggie shouldn’t have gone back with Charlie to the hotel when they meet back up and ‘made up’ before the finale. Let’s be real they didn’t settle anything on screen she just got her a keychain and they never talked. (COMMUNICATION LADIES ITS IMPORTANT FOR A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP!!) Vaggie should’ve gone back with the Carmine’s or whatever tf their names are idr lol. But fr that girl needed to do some reflecting herself, we need Vaggie time she deserves it.

(Side note I’m still pissed off that Charlie sent someone she very clearly still loved dearly to the literal only woman that CONFIRMED knew how to kill her and was capable of doing so. Vaggie’s the true victim here tf was the plan, that episode could’ve gone very differently if it wasn’t for the plot armor lmao)

I’m a personal believer that they should’ve made up DURING the battle. Like Charlie’s surrounded an exorcist tries to attack her from behind. A silhouette of wings drops over her she turns around expecting an exorcist only to see Vaggie on the exorcist that moved to attack her. She doesn’t have to be here she could’ve ran but she’s done avoiding her problems and they seamlessly work together. The context has changed but they remain the same. God I kinda wanna write a little canon divergent AU now..

This show suffers from potential but it just can’t focus on any of the ideas. Like their GOOD IDEAS but there’s too much going on, but there’s passion behind it. I know I’ve said only criticism but obviously I had fun watching it because I cared enough about the characters to want more of them. At the end of the day I hope we can remember we’re all here to have fun.

Also justice for Vaggie they shit on her way too much give the poor woman some air😭

(Also ALSO if ur confused were this came from I listened to the song “would you fall in love with me again” from epic the musical and the brain juices were flowing like that is a chaggie song if I’ve ever heard one idk about you)

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I can’t say they��re vanilla when I know for a fact Charlie developed a wing kink thanks to Vaggie’s wings-

Love to love ya baby~ 🎀🌈🍦💞💖

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The reverse is true as well. Charlie isn’t my favorite but I don’t take kindly to those who bash her.

yes!

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Here’s the thing. We have 3 more seasons to see the impact. Sure, Vaggie’s reveal can’t really affect Charlie too much. But it can still affect the world around them. Demons will probably turn their nose even more towards Charlie if they know that an angle is her lover.

And then Charlie and Vaggie will have to navigate now to handle the scrutiny.

I’m so annoyed by the “they had so much potential” arguments because we aren’t at the end game yet. The potential can still be used.

I’m sleep deprived so imma ramble

I know a lot of people were upset about Vaggie being an Exorcist when it was officially revealed but honestly it would’ve been the best writing decision IF it actually tested Charlie character. And it DOES in the show but only for a single episode and at no point was anyone fearing for their relationship let’s be honest. I personally believe they should’ve gone in to detail on how it impacted BOTH of them.

Like in the beginning of one of the episodes they literally have husk point out the main cast’s writing tropes, I know they were on a time crunch but dayyum. He calls her a bleeding heart but we really don’t get to see that in the show, maybe I’m just ignorant though.

Anyway- they have her focus on the ‘she lied to me’ aspect of the betrayal which yeah, that would hurt coming from someone she trusted with everything which is solid I can’t argue against that. But I think they dropped it too soon, they should’ve dove into the implications of trust and show more properly how that made her second guess herself more.

God I guess I just wished they gave chaggie more time to shine cause that ship has so much fucking potential. A lot of people seem to forget it’s not just the getting together and the touchy romantic shit that makes a relationship, it’s their dynamic, like wouldn’t have been more compelling if we got to see how they solve issues together? Like hell yeah power couple!

UH BUT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT TRUST, so-when I say ‘they should’ve showed her second guessing herself’ I mean like she should’ve second guessed EVERYTHING she’s ever thought’s on everyone. I’m not saying she should’ve become like aggressive but there should’ve been visible doubt of her stance with everyone.

Like surprised they didn’t call into question whether or not Vaggie was using her to get back into heaven. Obviously she’s not but imagine Charlie thought that for even a moment, ALL the bad things she was feed about angels from her father FROM VAGGIE comes to the forefront and of her mind and a bit of angel prejudice shines through. Maybe she’s driven to DRASTIC ASSUMPTIONS about everyone around her, the people she knows, or she thinks she knows them. Maybe they’re all like Vaggie and she made a mistake giving them the benefit of doubt and of course she scorns herself for thinking these ‘horrible things’. Like I said I wish they would’ve gave her more time to dwell on the doubt.

With said doubts she is suddenly very aware of the situation she’s in with Alastor but she’s backed into a corner. Alastor being Alastor would definitely feed these doubts, MANIPULATION TIME. He still convinces her that only he can help her and she takes the deal because she’s not gonna abandon her friends, using her or not she’s not letting them die without a fight. Cause let’s be honest this is Charlie they could’ve shot her damn dog goats and she’d still defend them lmao.

What was the point of this post again?

…

OH I guess what I’m saying is I want this bitch to have some trust issues but ultimately CHOOSE to still have faith in her people.

2nd unpopular opinion vaggie shouldn’t have gone back with Charlie to the hotel when they meet back up and ‘made up’ before the finale. Let’s be real they didn’t settle anything on screen she just got her a keychain and they never talked. (COMMUNICATION LADIES ITS IMPORTANT FOR A HEALTHY RELATIONSHIP!!) Vaggie should’ve gone back with the Carmine’s or whatever tf their names are idr lol. But fr that girl needed to do some reflecting herself, we need Vaggie time she deserves it.

(Side note I’m still pissed off that Charlie sent someone she very clearly still loved dearly to the literal only woman that CONFIRMED knew how to kill her and was capable of doing so. Vaggie’s the true victim here tf was the plan, that episode could’ve gone very differently if it wasn’t for the plot armor lmao)

I’m a personal believer that they should’ve made up DURING the battle. Like Charlie’s surrounded an exorcist tries to attack her from behind. A silhouette of wings drops over her she turns around expecting an exorcist only to see Vaggie on the exorcist that moved to attack her. She doesn’t have to be here she could’ve ran but she’s done avoiding her problems and they seamlessly work together. The context has changed but they remain the same. God I kinda wanna write a little canon divergent AU now..

This show suffers from potential but it just can’t focus on any of the ideas. Like their GOOD IDEAS but there’s too much going on, but there’s passion behind it. I know I’ve said only criticism but obviously I had fun watching it because I cared enough about the characters to want more of them. At the end of the day I hope we can remember we’re all here to have fun.

Also justice for Vaggie they shit on her way too much give the poor woman some air😭

(Also ALSO if ur confused were this came from I listened to the song “would you fall in love with me again” from epic the musical and the brain juices were flowing like that is a chaggie song if I’ve ever heard one idk about you)

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I greatly dislike Chalastor not because I think Charlie is naive (because she’s not). She’s too good for Alastor and time trying to “fix” him could be time spent working on herself.

I Have Things to Say

(This is going to be critical of the results of this poll. Don't like. Don't read).

I am forgot to comment on the results of this poll. But honestly, I knew who was going to win.

Despite them being a father-daughter duo. And of course, Lucifer showing up in only two episodes while Charlie is the main character...Lucifer is the favorite.

Let's be honest guys these two a literal copy and paste personality wise. And I have noticed that when writers or artists or literally anyone writes Lucifer as a whiner (especially about Lilith or depression). He is painted as pitiful and someone to be cared for.

Charlie has depression as well and has gone through a lot, people portray her as whiny brat. LUCIFER IS A BRAT AS WELL! And plenty of people in this fandom paint him as a manchild. Which is seen as cute. If Charlie did the same, it would be seen as hysterical and weak.

I've seen plenty of hate about her being needy and a typical whiny main character. Let's be honest if she were a man (AKA literally Lucifer. He's a copy and paste. SHE IS THE ORIGNIAL in writing at least) she would be loved much more. She'd be everyone's little fuckboy like Lucifer has turned out to be.

And do not get me started on Chaggie. I've seen too many people underappreciate that ship and call it boring. It's a stable cute relationship between two women. If it was two men, they would be frothing at the mouth and fawning over it.

Yet another example is Charlastor. If she were a man in that relationship people would grow crazy. Such as the case with R/adioapple which screams toxic yaoi. But oh no, if Charlastor is a bit toxic there's a power dynamic with Al being in power and Charlie is naive.

No, Charlie is not naive. She knows who Alastor is. SHE LIVES IN HELL! She's two hundred years old. Give her some credit for crying out loud. I've met plenty of people that are bubbly and optimistic yet have wisdom. Not everyone has to be cynical to be wise and I've met plenty of cynical people who are ignorant.

I am not targeting anyone specifically nor am I bashing. I love R/adioapple and I love Lucifer. I love really all the ships really. I am simply observing behaviors in this fandom. I find it to be both disturbing and fascinating to see the double standards.

(I got a little sidetracked about the ships. I have just seen a strange almost fetishization of mlm ships. I mostly judge ships based onthe chemistry and quality. the sexuality of the ship does not matter to me).

(Also no I am not telling you what character or ship to like. I am just saying it is interesting to see what people are drawn to and the underlying conscious).

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Say what you want about Chaggie being boring, and this is weird coming from the ultimate drama seeker, but I lowkey like the fact that Charlie and Vaggie are a normal couple. Sure, they have their issues (Vaggie hiding the fact that she was an angel from Charlie, Charlie brushing off Vaggie's input a lot), but they work through it, and they're just normal and loving. It's a nice break from the rollercoaster relationships we usually get out of the Hellaverse

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To all of the people who are hating on Chloe’s new design simply because she’s about more chubby than her OG design, I see you and I don’t vibe with you at all.

To all of the people who are hating on Nino’s design because they gave him the “Rena Rouge” treatment. I also see you and I know your pain.

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You joke but Pinkie is a better hero than Marinette ever was. Not only is she actually really honest but she’s so just about anything for her friends and the people she cares about.

And Cheese is pretty much that too.

I don't know if you saw that part of the leaks too but the snort that escaped me when Marinette cried "What if Adrien LIED to me??" (About talking to Sublime) was unholy lol

It takes GUTS to have a protagonist be this bold of a self centred hypocrite. Like, if Marinette were a real person I would assume she's hard core projecting out of guilt, but this is Miraculous. Marinette for real thinks this would be the much worse lie because this is about HER not feeling comfortable in her one sided emotional support relationship

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I didn't see that part. Yeah, little miss gaslighter has no place whining about Adrien possibly lying to her. Even if he was, I’d side with Adrien because what other choice does he have with a girlfriend this insecure about him daring to have friends while she gets to have an entire fanclub and surround herself with people who are in love with her? Marinette is obsessed with even the made up notion that Adrien isn't honest with her about his every stray thought and action. Marinette would be reading Adrien's thoughts to make sure he's where he's supposed to be in his every waking moment if she could get the ability.

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VILLIANS

The villain couple was afraid that the corpse would be lonely in such good weather so they dated on the side，good couple（？

p2/3I like both kinds of them so I put them both up here www

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MAI BOIIII!

You act like we’re to blame…

I love silly Mare he’s my comfort character

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The reason why I asked you this isn’t to argue that she IS a stalker. I actually agree with you that she isn’t a stalker because like you said, she doesn’t fit the bill as one. She may have stalk-ish like tendencies but she doesn’t do them as often as people make it out to be.

I do agree that she’s a creep and I really don’t think her and Adrien should be together but that’s a separate story I think-

Putting aside all of the jokes and technicalities and such…do you think Marinette is a stalker?

Buckle up folks, this is gonna be a long one.

Personal Bias

When I was 14-years-old, a "friend" of mine got a crush on me and I made it clear that I wasn't interested. He then proceeded to follow me around school, often blocking my path so I couldn't go anywhere without talking to him. He knew I was uncomfortable with this, but refused to stop until I got school authorities involved. By the time it was all over, he basically had a school-imposed restraining order where he wasn't allowed to go near me unless he wanted detention.

When I was 16, another "friend" was so upset that I was dating someone who wasn't him that he figured out how to get into my school email and, through that, one of my socials. He proceeded to try to break me and my boyfriend up. He almost succeeded.

When a male friend of mine was around 16, he turned down a girl who had a crush on him. She and her friends proceeded to harass him on a consistent basis because she knew his schedule and used it to trap him in certain spots like when he was waiting for the bus. They wouldn't stop no matter what he did or said. It only stopped when school officials got involved.

When my cousin was in high school, a boy started following her home every day. It got so bad that the cops were called, but they refused to do anything because he wasn't "threatening enough." Her family had to move and switch what school she went to in order to get away from him.

As you may know, I have seen Miraculous. So has my male friend. So has my cousin. We were all some level of fan at one point or another and have talked about the show critically together. Guess who didn't phase any of us?

Marinette.

Stalking 101

Definition One

Stalking is pattern of behavior directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to fear for the person’s safety or the safety of others; or suffer substantial emotional distress. (Source)

Definition Two

“Stalking is a pattern of repeated and unwanted attention, harassment, contact, or any other course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel fear,” according to the Department of Justice. Similar to crimes of sexual violence, stalking is about power and control.

Stalking laws and definitions differ from state to state. Stalking behavior can take many forms including:

Making threats against someone, or that person's family or friends

Non-consensual communication, such as repeated phone calls, emails, text messages, and unwanted gifts

Repeated physical or visual closeness, like waiting for someone to arrive at certain locations, following someone, or watching someone from a distance

Any other behavior used to contact, harass, track, or threaten someone

(Source)

Marinette Overview

When I say that Marinette isn't a stalker, this isn't me blindly defending my favorite character*. It's me considering her against the real-life stalkers I have actually dealt with as well as professional discussion on what stalking is and why it happens. When I look at those and then look at Marinette, she just doesn't fit the label.

"Stalker" is not a synonym for "creep." It's a term for specific patterns and types of behavior. When people use the term "stalker" for her, it never seems to come from some deep nuanced argument about her overall behavior. It comes from a handful of scenes where the writers absolutely take her too far. Those scenes understandably creep some viewers out. If those viewers just called her "creepy," then I wouldn't argue against them. Instead, they slap the "stalker" label on Marinette and call it a day without a second thought. I find that incredibly annoying in an analytical context and incredibly unappealing in a writing context for reasons we'll get to at the end.

That doesn't mean that I agree with Marinette's every action. The writers have made her do some extremely questionable things and I'm happy to criticize those moments! But, while I will happily agree that individual episodes take her too far, the overall picture doesn't fit a stalker even if you take things at face value and that pretend nothing is a joke/ignore that Miraculous is a comedy which is not how good analysis works. Ignoring the fact that Miraculous is a comedy shows poor media literacy and is another reason I can't take the stalker claims seriously.

If Marinette is a stalker, then every adult who showed up at Adrien's house in Party Crasher needs to be arrested because wtf were they doing showing up to a party thrown by unchaperoned 14-year-olds? If we take that episode seriously, then it's super creepy! But it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously because this is a comedy. The adults showing up was just done to make Adrien's party seem insane, not concerning like it would be in the real world. If you can wrap your head around that, but you're also trying to argue that Marinette's behavior in this episode was "problematic," then I just can't take you seriously. Pick a lane. Either all of the jokes are serious character beats or none of them are.

Marinette Analysis

To really dig into this, let's quickly look at a few of Marinette's worst behaviors and talk about why they don't set off my alarm bells for her character being a stalker. As we go over these, I want you to keep two things in mind:

stalking is about patterns of behavior not one-off bad choices

stalkers use stalking as a way to control and own their victims

Following Adrien Around

If Marinette were written as a stalker, she'd be doing this on the daily. She'd follow Adrien home every time we see him go home. She'd be at every one of his outdoor photo shoots. She'd transform into Ladybug and use binoculars to watch him in his room. But she doesn't. Most of the time, Marinette is happily living her life while Adrien lives his. She's more likely to watch his commercials than watch him which is not how stalkers work. That is how you write a fan, not a stalker.

There are a few episodes that do have Marinette follow him around, but it's always done as a way to start the plot and never as a fun little character beat like Marinette making Tikki hats. Even then, I think the Shanghai special is the only time when Marinette just randomly follows him somewhere to be with him (it's her most stalkerish moment, imo, but it's quite notably a one-time thing). Most of the time, there's an inciting incident that leads her to follow him for some reason other than just watching Adrien.

For example, Oni-Chan has Lila being creepy and lying her way into Adrien's home, leading Marinette to follow to see what's going on. That's not stalker behavior. That's comedically exaggerated concerned friend behavior. I could see Alya or Nino doing the same thing if they were allowed to be smart when Lila was around.

Sneaking into Adrien's Home

Once again, this doesn't happen in most episodes. I can only think of four out of 125: Chat Blanc, Party Crasher, Oni-Chan, and Gabriel Agreste. In each of these episodes, Marinette sneaks into the mansion - or tries to sneak into the mansion - because of some sort of mission or special circumstances and not as part of her normal behavior. For example, Chat Blanc is arguably the most questionable of these, but it starts because Marinette's girlfriends challenge her to give Adrien a present and not because Marinette just decided to go to the mansion:

Rose: That's it, Marinette! No more picnics, sleepovers, or going to the movies with us until you give him that gift! You made that hat for Saint Athanasius Day, which is today! How is Adrien's supposed to know you're thinking of him on his fifth name's day if you don't give him your gift? Alya: She's right. Today is the day! All the girls except Marinette: Go, go, go, go, go, go!

But when Marinette gets there, Nathalie won't let her in or allow her to wait. Nathalie doesn't even offer to take the gift, so Marinette sneaks in to leave the present behind. Good behavior? No, but not Marinette going to the mansion of her own volition to creep on Adrien. While this leads to the totally creepy pillow sniff moment, that's pretty much all Marinette does outside of leaving the gift. She doesn't go snooping in Adrien's room like Lila does in Oni-Chan because the point of this episode wasn't to make Marinette look like a villain or a creep. It was about punishing Marinette for using her powers to give Adrien a gift with her name on it as that's too selfish, I guess.

In fact, none of these episodes were trying to make Marinette look like a villain or a creep. Each one made her do something questionable, but only so that the plot would work. No present, no Chat Blanc. No party crashing or fake butler disguise and Marinette isn't there for the akuma. When there's no plot-necessary reason for Marinette to be at the mansion, she isn't. That's not how you write a stalker. For her to be a stalker, she needs a lot more Chat Blanc moments where she just sneaks in to leave him things or sniff his pillow. We need a pattern, not a one-off moment.

Having Adrien's Schedule

I know I'd said I'd take things more seriously than a comedy calls for in this discussion, but it's impossible to take this one even remotely seriously. How would Marinette even have Adrien's schedule for the next three years? Where did she get it? How is she keeping it up to date when things absolutely change on a weekly basis? How is anyone missing that this is a joke, especially when you consider how the show writes Marinette outside of this episode (Gigantitan)?

While Marinette is sometimes shown to know about things like Adrien's fencing schedule, most episodes present Marinette as if she's reacting to things that she just learned about. For example, in Backwarder, she freaks out about Adrien going to England with Kagami for a wedding that would have been on Adrien's schedule for months if not years.

Why would Marinette do that if she has his schedule? If she's a stalker, then as soon as she heard about the wedding, she'd be on a mission to find out if Adrien has a date and if there are any threats in attendance. She'd probably even find a way to stop Kagami from going like messing with her food. But Marinette doesn't do any of that. Instead, she's written as if she just found out about the wedding and is making up a plan on the fly:

Marinette: Girls! We have a very serious situation! (The girls are cuddled up in the couch, all of them except Rose looking extremely tired)Adrien and his father have been invited to the Royal Wedding in England this weekend. Alya: (annoyed and exhausted) That's the “emergency’’ you called us over here for on a Saturday morning? (frowns) Marinette: You don't get it! Kagami and her mother are going too! (paces around the room doing dramatic hand gestures) Which means that Adrien and Kagami will be spending an entire weekend together!

And her plan ends up being to give Adrien a note and hope for the best. Not exactly the obsessive, controlling behavior you'd go for if you were writing a stalker.

This also implies that, at most, she probably knows his weekly routine which isn't weird since that's something he'd talk about to his friends. Like all of Marinette's worst behavior, the "knows his schedule for the next three years thing" was a one-off gag. Please stop obsessing over it. This isn't how characterization works.

(Note from my male friend who I discussed this post with: the line about the schedule did put him on edge because of his experiences, but that quickly passed as Marinette's behavior didn't back up the line from a stalking POV.)

Stealing Adrien's Stuff

I'm pretty sure the only time Marinette steals something from Adrien when she takes his phone in Copy Cat. "I left an embarrassing message and have to delete it" is an established comedic plot that has been done by dozens of shows and not something uniquely chosen for Marinette, but let's ignore that for a moment and pretend that it's a serious character beat and not a comedy doing something silly because it's a comedy and that's how they work.

Even if we remove all that context, Marinette still isn't acting like a stalker. When my stalker hacked into my email, he was doing it in an effort to control me, not to delete an embarrassing message. He read everything he could find and used that to mess with me. It's actually how I discovered he'd done it. He knew too much. Marinette doesn't do anything like that. She deletes her message and then puts the phone back because stealing the phone wasn't about stalking Adrien. It was about fixing her mistake. A stalker would go through the phone to learn everything about her obsession.

Conclution

None of this is meant to say that everything Marinette does is totally fine and I think people are overreacting if her worst moments upset them. I hate many of the choices they've made for her character and think they were total missteps. If a real person was doing the things Marinette does, then I'd be getting psychiatric services involved because this isn't healthy. I could even see it devolving into actual stalking as the early warning signs are there.

However, Marinette's behavior isn't meant to be realistic and taken at face value. She's the fictional star of a comedy where the writers decided to make her failed confessions a running gag so they had to keep coming up with ridiculous situations to put her in based around her crush. That context matters when evaluating her character and deciding if her actions are meant to be as serious as Chat Blanc ending the world or silly as adults at a teenager's party in Party Crasher. For the majority of seasons one to five, it's very clearly Party-Crasher silly. That doesn't mean you need to like the jokes - I certainly don't - it just means that you do need own that they're jokes if you're trying to do any sort of serious analysis of Marinette's character.

I went through several elements of her behavior not to say that she's totally pure and fine, but to show you that people are taking a handful of really bad moments and acting like it's her standard behavior which isn't how large-scale character analysis works. I was also highlighting the difference between a character who is purposely written as a stalker and a character being the victim of a bunch of adult men making massive missteps while trying write a comedy about a teenage girl with a monster crush. If you want to take her behavior seriously in the context of what jokes are appropriate and what ones go too far, then be my guest! But that's not character analysis even if the analysis is focused on Marinette's character. It's a comedy or writing analysis. Any quality analysis of Marinette's character as a whole and how we're supposed to read her has to take the context of her actions into account.

To write Marinette as a real stalker, you have to go a lot further than the writers did. You have to make her worst behavior constant and not just occasional bad calls. You have to make her feel dangerous and change the tone from comedy to horror. You need to have her friends react with concern instead of egging Marinette on or pushing her into situations as if Marinette's behavior is fine. You need to have Tikki being deeply concerned and not just mildly exasperated. Canon doesn't do any of that because the writers don't intend Marinette's behavior to be read as concerning. When you look at the full context of canon, it's glaringly obvious that the problem is that the writers sometimes make poor calls when exaggerating her crush to tell jokes and not intentional elements of Marinette's character that you should take at face value.

Bonus Salt Fic Discussion

I said at the top that I find the stalker Marinette takes "incredibly unappealing in a writing context" and so I'll end with that as that is more nuanced than bad analysis.

Did canon give us a handful of moments that you can really lean on to back a read that Marinette is an unhinged stalker? Yes, it did. I can't say that people are making that shit up. The Shanghai special and Derision are especially solid "proof." Is fanfic often about obsessing over single moments and little details to an absurd degree no matter how insignificant those details are? Yep, I can't deny that either. That's not unique salter behavior.** Does Miraculous have wildly inconsistent characterization for basically every character with more the one appearance, making it so that you have to pick and choose what you're going to embrace as "canon" for you version if you want to be even remotely coherent with your own characterizations? 100%

All of that is why I'm on the record as saying that I get where the Marinette salt is coming from just like I get the Adrien salt and the class salt and so on. It's standard fandom behavior to bash characters you don't like and the salt takes aren't even doing that thing where people make shit up. It's all based on canon because canon keeps making terrible choice after terrible choice! I just don't find it fun because salt fics are all about embracing the worst writing in the show and expanding upon it, which is the exact opposite of what I want to see when I'm reading fic. I read fic to see better versions of canon! I don't want to be reminded of canon's very real problems. Problems I only expect to get worse as time goes on.

I have no doubt that season six will bring with it a bunch of new moments where Marinette and others act terribly. I wouldn't even be shocked if we reach a point where I agree that Marinette's standard behavior makes her feel dangerous because season five's ending certainly set things up to go there. However, for now, the worst label I'd put on her is "creepy" and that's only in the context of specific episodes. Generally speaking, she's fine.

*Btw, Marinette isn't actually my favorite character. My favorites are Alya, Plagg, and Adrien

**As an example of fandom obsessing over a more neutral detail and elevating it beyond anything canon ever dreamed of, I'll draw your attention to the fandom's obsession with Adrien saying that Marinette is "just a friend." I have come across multiple fics that would have you think that's his catch phrase. A pattern which was deeply confusing because I could only recall him saying it once or twice. After some digging, as best I can tell, he says those words four times and it's never even to Marinette's face, which is wild when you think about how many fics have her parroting the line as if he says it to her all the time. I've even had people tell me that he says that line all the time when that's very clearly not the case. I'd say it's weird, but it's probably just a variation of the fact that eye-witness accounts of crimes are notoriously inaccurate. People just don't remember things accurately.

[red-balloon12]

H I M

through the looking glass？Which is the color that gives me life?

Natemare？

NateMare.

gift for @namelessmunster ,hope you'll like it

@nwtbgiftexchange event