#you like lotr right

[postcambrianspencers]

@precambrianhottopic

[anghraine]

It's interesting (if often frustrating) to see the renewed Orc Discourse after the last few episodes of ROP. I've seen arguments that orcs have to be personifications of evil rather than people as such or else the ethics of our heroes' approach to them becomes much more fraught. Tolkien's work, as written, seems an odd choice to me for not wrangling with difficult questions, and of course, more diehard fans are going to immediately bring up Shagrat and Gorbag.

If you haven't read LOTR recently, Shagrat and Gorbag are two orcs who briefly have a conversation about how they're being screwed over by Sauron but have no other real options, about their opinions of mistakes that have been made, that they think Sauron himself has made one, but it's not safe to discuss because Sauron has spies in their own ranks. They reminisce about better times when they had more freedom and fantasize about a future when they can go elsewhere and set up a small-scale banditry operation rather than being involved in this huge-scale war. Eventually, however, they end up turning on each other.

Basically any time that someone brings up the "humanity" of this conversation, someone else will point out that they're still bad people. They're not at all guilty about what they're part of. They just resent the dangers to themselves, the pressure from above, failures of competence, the surveillance they're under, and their lack of realistic alternative options. The dream of another life mentioned in the conversation is still one of preying on innocent people, just on a much smaller and more immediate scale, etc.

I think this misses the reason it keeps getting brought up, though. The point is not that Shagrat and Gorbag are good people. The point is that they are people.

There's something very normal and recognizable about their resentment of their superiors, their fears of reprisal and betrayal that ultimately are realized, their dislike of this kind of industrial war machine that erases their individual work and contributions, the tinge of wistfulness in their hope of escape into a different kind of life. Their dialect is deliberately "common"—and there's a lot more to say about that and the fact that it's another commoner, Sam, who outwits them—but one of the main effects is to make them sound familiar and ordinary. And it's interesting that one of the points they specifically raise is that they're not going to get better treatment from "the good guys" so they can't defect, either.

This is self-interested, yes, but it's not the self-interest of some mystical being or spirit or whatnot, but of people.

Tolkien's later remarks tend to back this up. He said that female orcs do exist, but are rarely seen in the story because the characters only interact with the all-male warrior class of orcs. Whatever female orcs "do," it isn't going to war. Maybe they do a lot of the agricultural work that is apparently happening in distant parts of Mordor, maybe they are chiefly responsible for young orcs, maybe both and/or something else, we don't know. But we know they're out there and we know that they reproduce sexually and we know that they're not part of the orcish warrior class.

Regardless of all the problems with this, the idea that orcs have a gender-restricted warrior class at all and we're just not seeing any of their other classes because of where the story is set doesn't sound like automatons of evil. It sounds like an actual culture of people that we only see along the fringes.

And this whole matter of "but if they're people, we have to think about ethics, so they can't be people" is a weird circular argument that cannot account for what's in LOTR or for much of what Tolkien said afterwards. Yes, he struggled with The Problem of Orcs and how to reconcile it with his world building and his ethical system, but "maybe they're not people" is ultimately not a workable solution as far as LOTR goes and can't even account for much of the later evolution of his ideas, including explicit statements in his letters.

And in the end, the real response that comes to mind to that circular argument is "maybe you should think about ethics more."

[the-moon-ate-my-stardust]

Okay literally no one asked but as a former Hobbit movie hater who has since experienced character growth, I feel compelled to share my thoughts on the movies on my gay little blog.

Listen. There are legit reasons to be critical of these movies. They were made on a rushed timeline, at time where CGI overuse was the thing and there are definitely unnecessary moments. But despite those issues, these movies still have a lot of heart and character and some really wonderful acting! To compare them to LOTR, is unfair I think because LOTR was such an unimaginable success and I truly believe no other movie franchise can do what those movies did. To expect the Hobbit movies to be the same caliber considering the behind the scenes drama and massive difference in timeline is just not it.

Truly I think that the Hobbit could have been much more than it was and it’s sad to see the amazing moments and realize that we could have had movies that were maybe closer to the level of LOTR, but that doesn’t take away from all of the great things that the movies gave us! Despite what he may be like irl, Martin Freeman was a great young Bilbo, Richard Armitage was insanely good as Thorin (despite the change in age) and the other dwarf actors brought a great sense of loyalty, brotherhood and shared loss to their roles. The music is still dope as hell and there are some beautiful shots despite all the CGI.

This is way too long and I’ve not said anything that hasn’t been said before but honestly, I’m so glad that I stopped hating on these movies and have seen the special things about them. Nothing will ever compare to LOTR, but that doesn’t make these movies bad. They’re fun, they’re emotional, they have great characterization and it’s super valid to enjoy them.

Final gay thoughts because I’m obligated, but I struggle with people who argue against Bagginshield with the whole “why does everyone have to make everything gay?” thing. Because Hollywood is so deeply homophobic that we see so little genuine queer representation, so forgive us for enjoying the chemistry we find and making it our own since our society gives us breadcrumbs. If you’re not into Bagginshield, totally legit and fine, but don’t hate on other people (especially queer people) trying to find some romantic love in media that we enjoy. Also no one can convince me that Richard Armitage wasn’t at least somewhat intentionally putting his queer energy into this role, I will die on this hill.

Anyway, TL;DR there’s no shame in liking or loving the Hobbit movies despite their faults and there are lots of things to appreciate and enjoy and I for one, am glad to leave my LOTR purist hater days behind me

[sesamenom]

interesting how in the FA "beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked", then in the TA the Fangorn-Lorien-Mirkwood triangle of Weird Sorcery Forests exists between the domains of saruman, galadriel, necromancer-sauron, and radagast

[laoness]

@veilder

i dont think we give karl urban enough credit for his acting in this extended edition scene of eomer discovering eowyn in pelennor fields because. my goodness

[meteors-lotr]

Aragorn: I've only ever said I love you to three people: Ada, Legolas, and a dying Boromir. One of those I regret. Arwen: Which one? Aragorn: Boromir. He survived the arrow wounds and now I look like an idiot.

[kenobion]

Andrew Garfield's Criterion Closet Picks

[astronicht]

You know, it has been haunting me for more than a month… this far into Two Towers the size of the landscape is inescapable… and of course canonically it’s a version of our world, but also canonically the oceans moved and all… and I’ve been informed the Middle Earth mountains were bespoke sculpted.. but did Tolkien even know about Doggerland?? Did he just invent/prophesy Early Medieval Doggerland so he wouldn’t have to deal with boats, and to facilitate his Hobbit Volkswanderung Period (Hobbitswanderung, if you will).

This is a shitpost but truly I have lain awake wondering. When did we even find Doggerland? Tolkien wrote lotr before the theory of plate tectonics, but Doggerland??? I’m googling it. Oh for fuck’s same, lotr was written before plate tectonics were accepted, but after we found Doggerland. Just 20th century things:

(Wiki)

I’ll never fucking know if he did this on purpose or if it’s a wild coincidence. That’s fine I’m fine.

[al-pomegranate-seeds]

@tulipanthousa

[galadriel-blue]

I want to talk about Celadriel compared to Haladriel/Saurondriel and the reasons why I want Celeborn to appear in the show, but I am terrified of the hate I might receive-

[buttered-toasty]

Forging of the Ring/The Proposal/Reflections of Self

.

.

Till death do us part? You’re not getting out of this that easily.

And with that I think I’m done with my little marriage series (as I have been calling my bigger Sauron pieces)! I will post them all together sometime. Happy Halloween and remember not to separate out parts of your soul for the making of cursed jewelry!

Bonus thing with some extra portraiture under the cut, idk

[lotrmusical]

here's a poll. what are everyone's takes on this frodo moment in fellowship

'He wished with all his heart that he was back [at Bag End] and in those days, mowing the lawn, or pottering among the flowers, and that he had never heard of Moria, or mithril - or the Ring.'

[likesdoodling]

This is when Sauron is in Numenor, doing his thing, persuading people to do terrible stuff, being sleazy and charming and all that, laughing at thunderstorms, you know, normal totally NOT suspicious things to do.

Basically. I wanted to do something more 'serious' than usual, or rather put more effort in. And I've got LOTR on the brain. Specifically the Silmarillion and the Appendices (I think that's how you spell it) and all that. I wanted to do dramatic lighting. So I did.

(even if it took a lot longer than anticipated and it is now 1am...)

Twas worth it!

Cause it looks cool

:D

[myfanfictiongarden]

What I really like is that, when we hear “Gandalf. That is how they are going to call me.” spoken, the show cleverly acknowledges that it is not truly his name, but a name he is most known by in Middle-earth.

Because, in the books, many people he met did not know the difference between human and elf and wizard, so they called him Grand-Elf. Gandalf.

[chaos-of-the-abyss]

wait i thought i’d seen the full extent of the silm fandom’s misogyny but i guess the silm fandom can always hate female characters more because apparently?? people believe indis the manipulative malicious bitch came onto and cajoled and stalked finwe until he relented and married her all while specifically aiming to make it so that miriel could never come back and she could have finwe's dick for all of eternity and abuse poor helpless feanor to her black shriveled heart’s content??? apparently that is a take that exists and has shooters??? yall are truly smoking that good stuff