#yes this is about miquella specifically

[eldenrat]

I am joining the ranks of fools who looked into the abyss of SOTE spoilers and can’t muster the will to even play the game anymore.

[treevore]

hey, hey, don't cry, there's always twincest after all

[drenched-in-sunlight]

I didn’t want to write this out this early because I’m sure there are even more to discover, but people are already reblogging my previous art of Marika and Messmer & saying Marika doesn’t love him, so I write this out as a guideline that all my art is drawn with this theory in mind.

(While the DLC has changed the way I feel about certain events and characters, my view on Messmer and Marika remain unchanged. In fact, I think Marika skyrockets into my most fav in the game now. lol.)

* Beware of endgame spoiler under the cut

Please note that I wrote this without providing the item descriptions I use to develop this theory, because I want to make a proper post later with all evidence after I’ve played through all of the DLC. But those items exist and could be found in game.

Here is how I view Messmer and Marika’s relationship (he is her most beloved child):

For starter:

*the winged serpent - Messmer’s symbol, is considered a wise creature and is his friend. It is NOT the snakes that are viewed as traitors to the Erdtree, since the Serpent Crest shield was even made to commemorate his crusade. It’s also DIFFERENT from the evil snake he was born with.

*this is not to defend their actions, they are still horrible people, but I want to show that they have depths and are well-written characters with stories and emotions. My unhinged mother and son duo 😔✊

—-

I like the poetry in Marika starting the war against the Fire Giants in part as revenge for Messmer (it’s implied the Fell God is the Outer God that cursed him / it’s outright stated that he hated his fire), & now Messmer leading the purge against the Hornsent as revenge for Marika and her people (it’s implied the disappearance of her village has sth to do with the spirit calling rite the people at the Tower were doing).

I actually think Marika raised Messmer in her home village for a while too. She didn’t throw him to LoS alone, she was raising him in secret in her home, fearing people will judge him for carrying a malevolent snake. The two Tree Sentinels before the village dropped Marika’s Blessing. Yes. the Blessing she made specifically for him.

When you zoom in the Marika statue in his boss room, she was smiling when hugging him. I think ppl tend to forget that Marika, like Malenia and Miquella, carries tree/ foliage motif. RADAGON IS WEAK TO FIRE. If Messmer was cursed with fire and it started to manifest around him … of course she couldn’t embrace him anymore. It was physically hurting her, and Messmer wouldn’t have wanted to cause her pain as well. The soldier ghost at Ensis castle was begging Marika to embrace her child again, implying it’s sth that he yearns for. But couldn’t have now. Because of his damned curse.

If you look at the story that way, Messmer’s death dialogue makes perfect sense. It’s his lament that he’s gone from Marika’s precious (presumably firstborn) child, a source of her happiness, to a curse against her (*point to Radagon’s hair as another connection to Fire Giants and their curse). Robbing her (and himself) of the close bond they used to share.

It’s why Messmer alone has more blessings *directly* from Marika than any other Demigods. His army also receives more blessings than any other faction on the Lands Between, and they all refer to Marika as dearest Mother and Fair Mother.

Hell, after Messmer, Marika couldn’t connect to any of her other children again. This is like the ultimate doomed mother and son. Whatever I expected from them from the beginning, Fromsoft cranked it to eleven. Jfc.

[funpolishfox]

So, madness in Elden Ring only affects player-type characters, which means you can only proc madness on Gideon, when it comes to main game bosses. Of course, it's usually not a big deal, since frenzied flame is still good damage source and there are plenty other things you can proc on bosses. I don't think, there's specific lore reason as to why bosses as such Malenia or even Morgott cannot be frenzied (probably being able to proc frenzy animation on such bosses would make fights easier). But I was thinking- what if Frenzied Flame could affect other bosses? I'm speculating now more in lore way than gameplay way. After all, Frenzy Flame is all about despair, pain and misery- we can see it with Edgar after Irina's death and with merchants. It's about wanting to end all the pain, about wanting to burn down everything, so you cannot be hurt any further. It plays on emotions, especially love and care, as such case was with Vyke. Thinking about it, UndeadHumor was onto something when he made sketch with Morgott and Frenzied Flame- some demigods could be greatly influenced by it. Or rather, a specific child of Marika. Messmer. Others could probably combat it to some degree- Morgott was sealing Three Fingers away with Mogh, so it's obvious they were resisting it (and Mogh was influenced already by many other things). Radahn, Ranni and Rykard all have/had strong wills and couldn't be easily swayed. Miquella could probably be swayed, but once losing his emotions, Frenzy Flame couldn't really use him and Malenia is also strong-willed character, resorting to help from Outer Gods only as last-ditched effort. Melina obviously knows about Frenzied Flame and despises it. But Messmer? This man is already knee-deep in pain. He's been mommy's good boy for centuries long, doing war for her and getting nothing in return. Being abbanoned, scorned child, not having any place in his mother's new, perfect world. Forced to hide his serpent nature, something he couldn't control. And losing it all, once he sees his mother truly left him and choose some Tarnished over him. Why wouldn't he want to burn it all? He even states embracing oblivion in his second phase. His flame is already known as flame without honor or grace. He already brought so much pain onto everybody, including himself, he lost people important to him, he knows, he has no future outside of his crusade, which in the end, didn't earn his mother's love or favor. I might be missing some lore details, as I'm still trying to tie main game stuff with DLC revelations, but I won't lie- Messmer using both his red flames and yellow flames the same way Midra did, would be cool as hell. And yes, I am big fan of Messmer and Midra, how could you tell?

[shade-of-vermillion]

Gonna be honest. The DLC ending isn’t as out of left field as people think it is. (Spoilers under cut)

Yes, even the Radahn part. There is some evidence for it in the base game. Specifically, we know Miquella had or has ties to the Carian Royal family. We can infer that from two pieces of evidence, 1) Loretta’s presence in the Haligtree and 2) the description for the Miquellan knight’s sword. In the case of Loretta, you could of course make the argument that she sought him out on her own while looking for a place for the albinaurics, but with the sword, I think to go as far as to model a sword intended to be given to his knights after Caria’s implies he had contact with or at least a great deal of respect for someone from that house.

I’ve seen people in the past posit this as evidence he and Ranni were in cahoots but frankly I don’t believe their goals are aligned even in the slightest. Ranni after all believes that the best path forward is to reject godhood utterly and leave the lands between so that mortals can decide their fates on their own, whereas Miquella in the base game has literally been growing his own Erdtree, a new system to replace the old rather than a rejection of the system altogether.

I know there has also been a lot of upset about how Godwyn may have made more sense as his lord consort, however I believe Radahn was chosen specifically as a way to save Godwyn. In the base game through exploring Castle Sol and looking through the descriptions for the gear of mausoleum knights we discover the possibility of returning soulless demigods to life via an eclipse and find out that Miquella was working towards making one happen to bring Godwyn back. Radahn is shown as capable of binding the stars to prevent Ranni’s destiny from coming to fruition. He could probably force the moon into position in front of the sun if he wanted. If Miquella’s goal really was to restore Godwyn with an eclipse it makes a lot of sense that he would tap Radahn to force one to happen.

As for the Mohg thing, come on now. Gideon gives you the recipe for the bewitching branch the second you tell him you visited Mohgwyn palace. If it was just because Miquella was there he could’ve given us sleep pots or sleep arrows or maybe one of the rings of light spells. But no, he gives us the bewitching branch. How the hell else am I supposed to take that.

Honestly I also don’t think this ruins Miquella’s writing. I think it just makes him more interesting in the long run. He does have good intentions, but pursuing godhood requires dirtying your hands. I also don’t think this undermines his connection to Malenia or his drive to see both of them healed. I just think he’s more complex than people thought he was at first brush.

[velvetvexations]

incredible, i just saw a reblog of that "transfem headcanons are always better and sometimes transmasc headcanons actively make the text worse and more hateful" by someone i followed. funny to see discussions arguing against the post before seeing the post itself, otherwise i would have unthinkingly internalized it and felt like shit without knowing why. anyway, i unfollowed that person now. to make it worse, op tore into someone for claiming that chihiro from danganronpa is an exception and better read as transmasc... the irony is insane. yet another example besides miquella that would make the story more boring and maybe worse if transfem.

it's so disgustingly petty lmao

a lot of transfem headcanons are reaches, often "this is literally a man magically trapped in the body of a woman and he hates it and desperately keeps trying to go back to being a man" and it's FINE to headcanon characters however you want but since some people can't conceptualize being a woman as anything other than something they wish would happen to them they take characters like that and hiss if you go near them

i get the sense that there's a very specific, narrow demographic of transfems who used to buy into that reddit guy "being a hot 22-year-old girl must be like having 10 billion dollars" attitude and never really let it go. thus the fixation on "AFAB privilege". isee a similar mix of resentment and attraction from lesbian TERFs, though it comes from a different origin. and it's an attitude that can slide easily into TERFism even for cis men--just look at tatsuya ishida!

If anything the idealization of femininity a small minority of transfems exhibit when they complain endlessly about how good trans people AFAB have it would come more from dysphoria and the grass being greener on the other side. "An AFAB trans person will immediately revert to being an innocent little girl to hurl sexual assault accusations at trans women," however, is really concerning!

Regarding whether "binary privilege" exists, i am once again on my hands and knees begging people to actually look at the statistics. The US Transgender Survey and Cohnting Ourselves (from Aotearoa) are right there. And they both show that all trans people are about as badly off as each other regardless of their specific gender. Yes, there are some ways in which being nonbinary is particularly hard, such as not having a social role to fit into, I'm not denying any of that, but if you're going to call being binary a "privilege" then there needs to be a visible whole-group effect for binary people compared to nonbinary people. And there isn't one when you look at the numbers.

It's not really about non-binary people having it flat worse, more just situational complexities.

The thing about even discussing privilege (binary privilege in this case) is that so many people talk as if to have privilege means to inherently have privilege Over someone else. Like is it an advantage for me to be vaguely binary alligned enough sometimes to have a legal gender marker that is moderately less dysphoria inducing when some people are equally harmed by either? (Tbf I live in a state where x is an option, I simply do not feel safe with that 😵‍💫 (tho that does not help when nothing else other than state id accepts it)) like yeah it's a privilege but it's not privilege Over someone. It does not make me an oppressor or mean I am causing harm, which is a thing many people seem to believe, about various forms of privilege

That's a very good point, anon.

I suppose this isn’t how others I’ve seen think about it but. I’ve always just understood that you can be oppressed for being trans without your gender being affirmed. Like. The bigots understand you’re trans but that doesn’t make them think of you as your gender it makes them think of you as trans. Misgendering is such a huge part of what transphobes do and I’ve never once assumed they were like. Lying about seeing trans people that way. I don’t get acting like transphobes can see our, as you put it, soul gender.

It makes people feel better.

[miquellah]

⚜️ SOTE Impressions Survey Results ⚜️

Earlier, I cycled around a survey to get opinions on the story of Elden Ring's DLC, and 101 respondents answered!! Following through with my promise, here are now all the results as recived.

Most all of these responders are likely from Tumblr, with potentially just a few from Twitter. To my knowledge this was never posted anywhere else, so these results can likely be best considered the thoughts of a good chunk in the Tumblr sphere of players!

I've done my best to make everything sufficiently readable, but there's still quite a bit in length here, apologies. The text on the actual charts may or may not be difficult to actually read, but I've given small summaries after each question to try and mitigate this.

First, the basic demographic questions:

These two were optional, but almost entirely filled by all respondents nonetheless. It’s a pretty good split between gender! I half wish I’d made it more specific just for curiosity, but eh. Age range is primarily 19-25, with 26-30 second place.

A question to determine how familiar players were with Fromsoft’s soulsborne genre and writing. Most respondents are indeed Fromsoft regulars.

Most respondents fully expected Miquella to be Morally Grey before DLC release, with only a somewhat smaller amount expecting True Good over True Evil.

These speak for themselves. Base game lore has consistently high scores, whereas while DLC lore still has high peaks, there’s still much more of a spread haha.

Despite it all there’s more people saying the DLC lore coheres with base game more than not??

Have you changed opinions on the DLC's lore at any time since it's release? If so, how?

No (no elaboration) - 18 No change, i feel negative- 15 No change, i feel positive- 10 Yes, I feel worse- 2 Yes, I feel better now- 18 Yes (no elaboration)- 6 N/A- 7

And wherever there’s nuance it’s usually a lot of “yeah I see the vision, but some execution could ultimately have been better.” In hindsight this is also a question I should’ve made multiple choice��

A very high chunk of people were spoiled to any degree beforehand!

This question was due to all of the comparisons to Miquella as being similar to Griffith/initially expecting that of him before DLC. I think Berserk is a bit more popular in the Twitter/Reddit circles of fans, though.

Primarily high impressions of Marika, with veeeryy low levels of believing she’s justified. Only a sliver of hate.

VERY high opinions of Messmer! Very small justifications of his actions, much in line with his mother.

Very high impressions of Mohg overall, with a small slice of dislike, a tiny sliver of hate. People largely feel his actions are nuanced, with a small slice of more justified than not.

Miquella is by far the most divisive character! Albeit he still has some good chunks of Like and Love. Justification scores are much the same as Mohg, primarily complicated/nuanced.

More people feel Miquella is a child only in body, with a near-equal chunk feeling it’s open-ended/nuanced.

Surprisingly, most respondents do NOT believe in Mohg having sexual misconduct with Miquella… though perhaps some people felt this meant just with Mohg as a perpetrator, and not that there wasn’t iffy stuff at all? Nonetheless, this headcanon seems pretty prevalent in the community as a whole, but maybe that’s just due to all the loudest people with the crass jokes.

How do you feel about the writing choice of Radahn as Miquella's chosen king and consort?

Okay rather than try and take the stats for this one, I’m going to try and summarize the bulk of responses best as possible:

The least generous replies say this sucks ass. The most generous usually say “yeah, I see what they were going for, but the execution of this feels very flawed nonetheless.” One respondent states that the emphasis of Miquella’s plotline seemed to be on his choice of consort entirely, rather than his actual motivations or journey to get here.

Many people lament Malenia’s lack in things at all within DLC, past a single mention. A notable amount of people note that they would’ve been more accepting of the consort if it had ended up being Godwyn instead, because of the amount of weight he seemed to have in the base game lore alongside Miquella. At least one respondent laments the disservice “done to monsterfuckers everywhere” that we didn’t even get a physically  monstrous boss in the end.

There’s a couple of people who go “oh yeah this makes sense for the both of them and/or I saw the signs along the way”, but they never go on to elaborate… the longest responses are always from people who are most unhappy, or are fairly understanding, but still ultimately unable to end up terribly pleased with this plot point.

Overall the reception to this plot point is decidedly poor, with the main grievances being how little foreshadowing or apparent basis there was, and how it changed the context of things in base game– such as Radahn’s first boss fight, the battle of Aeonia itself, Jerren’s wishes, and the sacrifices of all the soldiers between both armies. Even any concerns over implications of incest are honestly low priority here.

By far my personal favorite response is “I couldve written a better plot twist with three hoyrs of sleep and a coca col”, so shoutout to that one.

(Bonus) Optional because she's not relevant in the DLC. How do you feel about Ranni as a character and her actions?

I’ll be honest, this one was just because I think people’s thoughts on Ranni are a great judge of narrative comprehension. HAHAHA. But out of 91 responders to this one, most everyone cleared!

The bulk of responses are ultimately “yeah what she did to Godwyn was fucked up, but ultimately I understand it”. A few respondents note her narrative of female autonomy, and state their own reflection in this. Several note that she is selfish, but some aren’t particularly condescending with this and say that by all means, she’s just like the rest of the demigods if not still better than them.

A small handful also note that Ranni and Miquella are essentially foils to one another, where Miquella gives up everything for the sake of his Age of Compassion, but Ranni finds a means to keep her soul. It’s noted that even with his well-intentioned ambitions, he still ultimately fails as a reflection of Marika, whereas Ranni cuts herself from the cycle entirely.

A good handful of responses are little more than “hell yeah girlboss” and “fuck yeah that’s my wife” lol. On the other end, there’s a couple of responders who talk about how much they hate how she’s waifu’d, some disliking her purely because of this. Only about 2-3 responses in here are ones I’d truly consider character hate (without any seemingly justified reason) though.

Overall she’s more praised than not, with most everyone acknowledging her motivations, complexity, and role in the story. She’s often noted for her foils with Miquella, her goals of autonomy and the subsequent sympathy here from cis and trans female responders alike, with many acknowledgments that she is still by no means a saint.

And that's all! Thanks again to all of those who responded, and once more to those who've now read all the results. I still have the individual responses saved, so if I wanted I could go through and try to discern if there's any patterns related to how certain outcomes in opinion happen... but I'm tired!!! Hopefully if nothing else, this survey was a nice way to reflect and to sate some curiosity ✨

[epicfroggz]

Would love to see more of your Messmer/Abyssal takes, it’s just really, really fresh and interesting!

Thanks y’all for the asks, I’ll be answering these under one roof since they work for a broad thematic post! On the subject of Messmer’s

Disorder

(long post ahead!)

Definition 1: “The disruption of peaceful and law-abiding behavior.”

If the law is the Golden Order, then the Abyssal Serpent represents the opposite of that, Shadow and Disorder. Seen in the contrast between his two phases: phase 1 Messmer is disciplined like his army, a little bit dramatic, and tired of his role in this charade. His lines are practiced and the way he says his own name worn out. Yet, my purpose standeth unchanged… Phase 2 Messmer, on the other hand, drops all such pretense, his strikes and movements becoming wild and exceedingly violent as he thrashes and twists and crawls upon the ground like the base serpent he is. He sheds all regard for his own safety, like Guts donning the Berserker armor—and the similarities don’t end there. Messmer’s beast of darkness may take on a serpentine shape, but it certainly still represents his hatred, bloodlust, and desire for revenge. Revenge, in this case, against the mother that imprisoned him—a curse upon thee. All his suffering and pent-up negative emotions that he has pushed aside for her sake have been concentrated into one being, and now he will inflict that pain upon you. Embrace thine oblivion, as shall I.

So no, the Abyssal Serpent is certainly not peaceful nor law-abiding; Messmer has forsaken the Order, and embraced his natural state of disorder. Become wild, and free. Returned to the shadows from which he draws his true power—that which made god herself fear him.

And that begs the question—why? Why does he exist? Why did Marika birth such an accursed child, the antithesis to everything she is trying to create?

“A curse upon the strumpet’s progeny, upon Marika’s children each and all.” (Hornsent Grandam dialogue)

“The seduction, and the betrayal. An affair from which Gold arose. And so too was Shadow born.” (DLC Story Trailer narration)

The Hornsent believe Marika’s ascension a betrayal. Their suffering, alongside Marika’s own suffering at the fate of her people, both coalesced into the twisted immaculate conception of a son. Messmer, son of Marika, who carries the burden of all their curses and despair, and keeps company with the original sin. This was the Greater Will’s “gift” to Marika upon achieving godhood—and so too was Shadow born. A painful reminder of where she came from, what it took to get here—and, since with his flame he could destroy everything she built, a reminder of her place. She is, as much as Miquella would have been, a divinity caged. (Reason #326 why Marika had Messmer sealed away in the Land of Shadow…)

Definition 2: “An illness or condition that disrupts normal physical or mental functions.”

Does the Abyssal Serpent have a personality—yes, Messmer’s! But more specifically, it is the personification (snake-ification?) of Messmer’s personality disorder. Before the seal, his behavior would have certainly fallen outside the norms of his culture and caused problems, as such disorders are defined. He had strange habits, was prone to violence, and often acted upon primal instinct. His overall experience was quite different from that of everyone else. Between his own serpentine nature and the winged serpents, his senses were sharper, he felt emotions (especially negative ones) more strongly, and occasionally transformed into a gigantic viper when he got too excited. As one does. This viper’s thoughts were essentially Messmer’s without the filter—just like him, it cares about the people that care for him, and wishes to hurt those that hurt him. Sometimes towards his mother it felt both, causing friction between them.

What may have just been the growing pains of his unusual existence, Marika saw as a sickness that needed to be cured. She was of the belief that the Abyssal Serpent was not an extension of Messmer, but a parasite clinging on to and ruining her beloved son. Her efforts culminated in the seal. She implanted grace into a being inherently graceless, and like some kind of conversion therapy, suppressed his true self. But that part of him did not and cannot just go away—there it writhes, behind his blinded eye, for only him to witness. For only him to hear its screams, to feel its pain. An eternity of suffering. As it thrashes, its hatred grows, manifesting as constant intrusive thoughts and vivid nightmares—symptoms not at all helped by Messmer’s inherent PTSD (this one I will diagnose outright—in my timeline, he was enlisted as a pre-teen and then the wars kinda never stopped).

Although she sealed the Abyssal Serpent, Marika recognized that Messmer’s drive to burn consume destroy everything could not be quenched. A drive that she herself caused and cultivated, and now feared. Hence, she gave him a target, the Hornsent, and while he was not looking, abandoned him with no way to return home. (Potentially at the behest of Radagon now that he is Elden Lord, who for ages has been wanting to excise the sinful impurity that is Messmer from his Golden Order.) Can you imagine what that does to a person?

I think I will never run out of things to say about him, but that is where I will leave it for now. The whole mental deterioration of Messmer and his army after being abandoned is worthy of another post (or, I think I may write a fic about it).

I will say, if you want more of my personal characterization of Messmer and the serpent within, you may wish to check out my fic! It’s in his POV and I really try to get inside his head (it’s so interesting in there)!

- Froggo

[wraith-caller]

been perusing the 1.0 vs final versions of the game's item descriptions. here are a handful of armors that were interesting to me. to be clear, i'm not making any claims about what the canon 'should have been' or that any of this is evidence of something or other. it's merely speculation about what directions things may have gone, and to highlight how much was still being changed.

'The Scion Empyrean' plus 'recipient of the Vision' makes it sound like Miquella was the known heir of the Golden Order. His 'sacred tree' is mentioned, giving the implication that his Haligtree may have originally been written not as a defiant sanctuary but as the founding of his own seat of power which he was destined to have. It may have also been explicitly sanctioned by the Golden Order, since Radagon is gifting him these soldiers.

Gnarrl will continue to live on in my heart, even if he didn't make the final cut, because god damn if that description isn't far more visceral and interesting than the revised version!

The female albinaurics may have once been an entirely separate race of people. This would go a long way in explaining why they alone look so human in comparison to the froggy 2nd-generation albinaurics and the aged/decrepit 1st-generation. It's also interesting that they are specified to be artificial beings made specifically for Miquella(so, acceptable to the Golden Order rather than unwanted as they are now). The 2nd gen albinaurics may also have been their own race (Frog People being apt), but there's less info about them here.

I've always thought it was weird that Rogier mentions off-handedly that the Black Knife Assassins were all 'scions of the Eternal Cities' yet the rest of the game focuses way more on how they are kin of Marika and this connection to the Nox is never picked back up elsewhere. But here, this one sentence makes a connection between the Nox and Marika's family. I wonder if that was a thread of the narrative they had initially wanted to delve into but ended up scrapping it, and Rogier's line is the only vestige of it now.

This is just of personal interest to me because of the number of people i've encountered who insist Radahn was "never shown to love war". :] While of course the 'god of war' description was done away with in the final product, it still felt like a minor point of vindication that yes, the image of warlord has been associated with him and it is not erroneous to read this trait in him.

What's interesting here is that the godskins were wearing demigod skins! Would the godskins have then been affiliated with the Black Knife Assassins rather than the Gloam Eyed Queen at some point? Or simply allied with them in her name?

All of Ensha's armor was written with the same description(just replace 'mask' for other parts). I'm not sure what they were trying to get across with the term 'mediates' here(i'm assuming a kind of channeling, 'mediates' as in 'something done by a medium'), but it's still a very different take on him compared to the final version which is so much more mysterious and strange. it may have been that he initially was just a 'normal'(as things go in tlb at least lol) guy wearing these remains to channel...something. Who knows what lol

i like these bc it's kind of what i had assumed to be the case for roderika, and probably other unlucky tarnished: in a cut-throat political landscape, accusations of 'seeing grace' may be used as a way to get rid of the competition/unwanted. it also hints at the idea that whether or not a tarnished can see grace is NOT visible from the external viewer, otherwise such a gambit wouldn't work.

just left me wondering what 'rune cursed' would mean, esp since the outfit in question is the one with those strange wooden boards around their neck(like Gostoc wears).

a few things for the sorcerer stone helms. there would have been gold amber and red glintstones. while there are still red glintstones in the game, they're symbolic of a heretical form of magic which the academy wouldn't include in their stone crowns. these are associated with blood magic, and seen in alberich's outfit. the amber, on the other hand, is only mentioned(iirc) in conjunction with the Prince of Death staff, which is 'sullied'. this is also heretical to the academy. i wonder if that could mean a lot of the stuff about what is heretical sorcery was not solidified until late in development? also...who is grana 🤔🤔 (<---back on my 'the witch's glintstone crown is NOT depicting sellen' bullshit)

not really much of note here. just neat that rya would've had a mask just like her mom!!

Perhaps remnants of the suspected cut quest line where we would have encountered Malenia first as a 'friendly' npc and then a boss. These are millicent's clothes in the final game, and she had a different set of clothing that was cut altogether.

Indication that Stormveil was once more explicitly under Morgott's watch(or command?). while of course Margit is guarding it from Tarnished, it's something else entirely for the men of the lord of leyndell to be stationed there, and could imply that relations between godrick and leyndell had not been so dire in this version of things(unless godrick was not in stormveil at this point? idk).

Once again, all traces of the connections between the Black Knife Assassins and the Eternal Cities was stripped away from the final cut. Really does make me wonder if Rogier's line about them was meant to be excised and just forgotten about lol

a totally cut npc, ondrej! ok maybe you would've just found this on a corpse and ondrej is one of those faceless mysteries mentioned only once...BUT the description here makes it sound like he would've been a questline leading us to farum azula or something? who knows!

[yolowritter]

A Perspective on Miquella the Kind

"Miquella the Kind...is a monster." Those are some of the first words uttered by Sir Ansbach once the Empyrean's Great Rune is shattered, and the charm placed upon his followers in the Lands of Shadow is lifted. But...are they actually true? With all the new information we have about Miquella in the Shadow of the Erdtree DLC, it's worth to re-examine all we know about his character. Naturally, a huge part of the community is budy combing every nook and cranny for more lore on this Demigod. And...others are displeased with the new information given, or more specifically, what Miquella's plan is revealed to be at the DLC's end. So today, I want to take a closer look at Miquella as a character, his followers, and of course, the overarching plot which the Tarnished becomes involved in after slaying Radahn and Mohg. As an aside, we really owe the Lord of Blood an apology as a community. Nevermind the murders and cult sacrifices, Mohg managed to beat the allegations! Anyway, I do intend to also give my own interpretation in regards to the more...questionable things in the new Lore, so let's get right to it!

Firstly, it's worth establishing a baseline for who Miquella is as a person. As we all know, he is the son of Queen Marika and King Consort Radagon, as well as brother to Malenia. As a side note, the whole "Miquella divested himself of Saint Trina" situation most likely explains how this family dynamic would be possible, but that's another post altogether. Marika's...questionable marriage choices aside, Miquella has always been described as a kind, gentle soul. In some ways, his narrative place in Shadow of the Erdtree serves as a foil to Marika herself. Where his mother schemes and conceals the truth, Miquella is extremely upfront about his goals. Make the world a kinder, gentler place. And honestly? I believe him. I fully believe that Miquella, having grown up next to his cursed sister and seeing the Golden Order unable to do anything for Malenia, wished for nothing more but to better the world. And after realizing the Order wasn't working, I've no doubt he went on to discover the many, many attrocities committed against those of the Crucible, like the Misbegotten for example. However...this is where things get a little muddy, in terms of morality that is.

Remember that Miquella is basically a God. He is one of the few who can succeed Marika in a new Age. But...he doesn't seem like a fighter to me. He isn't one, which is where Radahn comes in. Now, forgive the aside, but we need to have a chat about what exactly "Consort" means as a word. Yes, it's typically used in the context of marriage, but from the original Latin meaning (I'm no expert here, feel free to correct me), a consort is someone with whom an individual shares a destiny. Miquella himself talks a little about this, both in the fight against Promised Consort Radahn, and if the Tarnished is charmed by his Circlet. Yes, that's the thing he uses to hypnotize people, it's in the item description. We understand the concept of a consort as the more modern interprepation of a romantic partner, a spouse of some kind. However, Elden Ring doesn't work by the same rules. Yes, it can mean spouse, given that Ranni welcomes the Tarnished as one and grants the Dark Moon Greatsword as a wedding gift, but it doesn't have to.

Unfortunately, I think the community is falling into the same pitfall we did with Mohg's wording of his own desires to become Miquella's consort. Unlike Ranni, neither situation here necessitates romantic feelings, and frankly I don't believe they exist here. Miquella was fascinated by Radahn's strength and kindness, and believed his brother would be an excellent person to share the remainder of his plans for a New Age with. And Radahn was, objectively speaking. He's hailed as a hero from everyone who knows him, even Ansbach treats him with great respect should you summon him for the final battle. I think the Vow made between Radahn and Miquella happened before the Shattering, and was something along the lines of Radahn helping Miquella make the world a better, kinder place. It's something the Red Lion would absolutely want, since despite his element being war, we get many accounts of him being an honorable, good man. It would make sense why Radahn at first agreed with Miquella, so let's see why Malenia even needed to go and do what she did in the first place. Why did Radahn not hold up his end of the deal?

To put it blunty, it's because he's a Golden Order fanboy. I'm still not entirely sure how Messmer ties into this from a timeline perspective, but Radahn grew up with his older half-brother (presumably before the Holy War against the Hornsent), his father Radagon, and Lord Godfrey as his primary male role models. Even if Godfrey had been exiled by that point, the evidence of his crusades was memorialized in song for Radahn to be inspired by. Of course he believed the Golden Order to be righteous and good, and wanted to uphold the honorable values he was raised on. Considering his own character, I'm quite confident in speculating that Radahn saw the Order's faults, and probably agreed with Miquella that there was a distance between the stories he grew up on and reality. So naturally, upon seeing his younger half-sibling try to fix things, Radahn quite possibly supported the idea.

Where I think the divide happened...was Miquella's method of problem-solving. As I said before, I've no doubt that he is as Kind as they say; it's just that Miquella envisioned a world without violence and had the power of make it so. His broken Great Rune holds the power to resist charms, so it's pretty reasonable to assume that the whole thing once held the power to perhaps inflict them. Miquella later replaced it with the Circlet he now wears, but still. He was strong enough to evoke a cult following from most of those who laid eyes on either of his forms. Again, I firmly believe he was doing good here, as both himself and as Saint Trina. From Miquella's point of view, he is helping. He grants the restless a peaceful sleep, he gives a home to the outcasts, he protects the Albinaurics, etc. That's why so many people wanted to follow him. What interests me is that Miquella seems to be a classic case of the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

He undoubtebly, truly wants to make a kind and gentle world, but has little qualms about forcing people to stop fighting. As Leda tells the Tarnished when asked about Hornsent, she explicitly states that without Miquella's charm, he would be attacking her and the others right now. Yes, it is arguably better for people to not fight to the death, but Miquella enforces this "good" thing in the wrong ways. Everywhere in the Lands of Shadow, we can see something similar. Sir Ansbach for example explains that Mohg himself got charmed, and that upon trying to rescue his Lord, Miquella brainwashed him as well. And he only sounds upset about it after the charm is broken. This gives us a very interesting character, since Miquella is technically correct in what he states. Should his Age of Compassion come to pass, there won't be any more War, or violence, or destructive conflict. However, taking away people's free will is arguably worse. So, what happened? Why does there seem to be a difference between the morally grey (but with good deeds to his name) Miquella, and the more extremist version we battle in Enir-Ilim?

Well...I think Miquella's Crosses hold the answer. At every site, he "divests himself" of something. It's clearly stated that he had doubts, he second-guessed if this was the right thing to do. He had moral qualms, but forced himself to leave them all behind. And there is one more thing he abandoned. Saint Trina. I believe this is why he seems so jarringly different to what we know about him. Because Saint Trina is his love and compassion. Every genuine feeling that Miquella held was left behind to make space for the more nebulous "Greater Good" of his new age...and evidently, very little that made Miquella himself even exists anymore. Despite the radiant light at the Gate of Divinity, his demeanor seems cold and calculated, much more akin to how I and many others might characterize Queen Marika. In attempting to ascend to Godhood, Miquella ironically became what he sought to destroy.

That's why there's such a difference between the Miquella we hear about in the main game, who does seem to be using his powers yes, but for a good cause...and the DLC version of Miquella, who is abusing his charms. Ever since entering the Lands of Shadow after he cocooned himself, Miquella has slowly divested himself of everything except the greater goal. Godhood is all that's left of him by the time we arrive at Enir-Ilim, which is why Saint Trina begs us to kill him. Miquella has already killed himself in a way, and all that's left is a brilliant yet hollow shell. The genuine warmth and compassion he once held for the Lands Between and their people are void, leaving behind only the unfeeling rays of pure gold, much like the ever-present Erdtree. He seeks to supplant Marika's Age...and then install himself as a God, just like his mother. I'm sure that he did have genuine kindness in his heart, but now...there isn't any left within him. That's why he's enforcing his will upon Moore, Ansbach, Freya, Thiollier and Hornsent. Because he's become just like Marika.

It's unfortunate, and a brilliant tale a self destruction that if correctly decoded shows how masterful Fromsoft is at this kind of storytelling. Now, I'm not claiming to be completely correct in this interpretation, since this is just my personal viewpoint of how and why things played out this way in the DLC. Feel free to drop your thoughts below, I'm more than happy to open up a disccussion about Miquella! Anyway, if you'll all excuse me, I need to go replay Shadow of the Erdtree. I'll see you all soon, but until then, Stay Tarnished everyone!

[miirshroom]

Shadow of the Erdtree - How Miquella Healed Freyja

He didn't. She's dead - they all are. Go to the suppression pillar and the game says very directly that death washes up in the Shadowlands.

"But that doesn't make sense because the player character is in the Shadowlands and isn't dead-" Yes you are. The Tarnished who return are "ye dead who yet live" and always have been. You are a special kind of living dead who can still see the Guidance of Grace and use it to teleport. This is the power that both you and Melina have. If you or any other character did not have this power, then what possible exit point is there from the Shadowlands?

The Scarlet Rot can't be cured in the Lands Between for the average person - as seems to be demonstrated by the Cleanrot Knights - but any wound can heal in death if a person believes that they have suffered enough and deserve healing. It's like, the #1 comfort that certain religions offer to people - that if they live a morally good life they will be rewarded in the afterlife. If Freyja only knew Miquella by reputation and rumours as a Great Healer who could even help Malenia then she would be willing to believe that he can heal her. And because dreams come true in death that is what happens.

"Long ago, I was stricken by scarlet rot in the Swamp of Aeonia. Immobile, feverish, and in great pain, I was entirely resigned to death. I was left behind, and only Kindly Miquella was enough to seek me out. My wound was swollen and festering — exuding a most pungent odour — and yet he drained the poison from it." - Freya, SotE

If something sounds too unbelievable to be true it probably is. Freyja was feverish at the time of this healing and does not describe exactly how she got to the Shadowlands. None of them do, except for Leda also meeting at the withered arm (and I have thoughts about what it means that Leda specifically meets you there). But you the player know that the conditions for getting Radahn and Mohg involved in the DLC storyline was to kill them. It's a frequent enough feature of ghosts that the dead do not realize that they are dead. Often this is a twist reveal at the end which makes it hard to discuss examples, but basically everyone knows about the Sixth Sense by now. Spirits "only see what they want to see. They don't know they're dead." There's also an early episode of Supernatural TV show that does this well.

"When the weak were infected with the dreaded fly sickness, they perished well before the metamorphosis could take hold. Oddly, those who cared for the infected made certain they were given a proper burial were never afflicted themselves." - Ailment Talisman, SotE

Sickness is not contagious here because the transmission of disease does not follow logical rules based on immune systems and disease vectors. A person will only suffer sickness if they believe that this is the punishment that they deserve even in death. That anyone is suffering here is an extension of the trope about dead people being oblivious to their status - the idea that people create their own torment in death if they think that it's what they deserve. The 1998 film "What Dreams May Come" is about this. And that title is based on a passage from Hamlet:

"To die, to sleep— To sleep—perchance to dream. Ay, there’s the rub! For in that sleep of death what dreams may come"

[cat-mermaid]

@modeus-the-unbound made this great post:

They put into words something that has sat in my brain but I didn't know how to address it, so now I do:

THIS

YES

THIS DAMMIT

Even after Miq sheds off all of his parts, and even after using Mohg to further his goals, I’ve still always thought that the Miquella we see at the end of the game is the best damn leader the Lands Between/Shadow Lands could have even gotten

I’M EVEN COOL WITH MIQUELLA TRYING TO STEAL MY CHARACTER’S HEART AND HAVE ME JOIN HIM, THAT SOUNDS DOPE AS FUCK

“Divinity is a cage!” who is caging him if the GW is gone? What is this cage? Why is it bad? Why is it so bad that it would be better for him to be dead then continue on as a god who wants to save us all from the consequences of his mom’s actions?

“Becoming a god means he’ll be beyond saving and forgiveness!” FROM WHAT TRINA, FROM WHAT. If she would to elaborate just a little more, saying something like what Gandalf said in LOTR about the one ring, how though he himself would try using it for good, it would end up corrupting him and make him a monster?

If Trina had just said a little something along the lines of-

EVEN THE MOST NOBLE SELFLESS SOULS WILL BECOME CRUEL AND UNYIELDING UPON GAINING THE MANTEL OF GODHOOD. MIQUELLA WILL BECOME A MONSTER GREATER THAN THOU CAN IMAGINE

-OR WHATEVER THEN I MIGHT BE DOWN TO PUT MIQUELLA DOWN LIKE OL YELLER

in past fromsoft games, I’ve always accepted the vagueness of the plot and the lack of answers, because at no point in demon/darksouls/bloodborne does anyone ask the question “how did this happen” everyone is just living in the moment and you are just plopped into and given a goal, your character and the characters around you aren’t trying to solve anything, just to obtain somthing

but the thing is that in Elden Ring, we are given way more plot and character backstory about NPCs(specifically Marika and the Demigods) then the past games, and thus we’ve become way more invested in them then characters like Gehrman, Lady Maria, Annalise, Micolash or Eileen the Crow

we the player haven gotten so much lore about the Demi gods, especially Miquella, that care about their destinies, their goals and their success/failure.

You think I cared about anyone in Dark Souls 3? Not really because we don't get any really deep interactions with many of its denizens. ALSO that world was pretty doomed, no real saving it.

You think I cared about anyone in Bloodborne? Kinda but most of them died right away and ALSO That world was SO doomed unless you became an infant great one.

In Elden Ring we’re told Miquella is the equivalent to Jesus/Buddha, and that he has the potential to mend this world, set it right and make it a better place for everyone. We’re disappointed when we see that he’s just ended up in a cocoon in the end, withered up and old because Mohg seemly fucked up his attempt to fix his body and ruined the haligtree plan

But when we the player find out that in the dlc Miquella is actually fine and wandering the Shadowlands, trying to get the to gates of divinity and ascend so he can right his mom’s wrongs? HOLY SHIT YES!

Previous fromsoft games have never done this kind of thing, usually every character meets their tragic end and thats it! No hope, no second chances.

So thats why I think it hurt the fanbase so much to go through that emotional roller coaster only to be told at the end oh lol you have to kill him now its for his own good yeah the sleepy gal said so

All it leaves is a sense of bafflement, bitterness and disappointment. Being a Fromsoft game, maybe thats wat they were going for

(what am I saying its Fromsoft, of course thats wat they were going for lol)

[mohgreal]

I always saw the jokes about Mogh as being like. the fandom being stupid, because it obviously isn't why Mogh took Miquella, it was established as Mogh kidnapping Miquella for the sake of power, people just made the easy loli jokes. Now you get 50 "he beat the allegations" and "Mogh is actually biggest victim" posts.

I've also seen people just claim that Miquella's love drove Mogh insane, even though even stuff like the pureblood knights medal specifically talks about a new Dynasty. You aren't really gonna feel sad for the blood cultist being used for a new age. I like the idea of Miquella utilizing his power because he was kidnapped and had to change his plans. I really liked the theory of using the blood to get away from the Greater Will. It's just so. forced?

If Miquella had this whole enchant Mogh plan, why did almost no one know where he went? Why was he in the cocoon? How long has it been since he was taken? I also feel like the compelling power isn't established as brainwashing, it's just enhancing his natural charm, it's his allure that has to latch onto something, like Mogh's desire for a dynasty. In the end it's a bit pointless to even discuss this because it's just. clear they threw away the already established lore and ideas for Miquella for the sake of disappointing new stuff, they went with the most passive and boring direction, instead of properly exploring blood lore and all of Miquella's lore.

longish but good read anon. and yes, it feels very forced and weird to me as well and probably alot of people from what I know. I guess people in fandoms will always be stupid so i'll brush that aside for a moment;

the lore has always been messy but I feel they fucked it up with SOTE lore by making everything so contradictory. Why does no one know where he went if he told Malenia about his plans to marry Radahn and become a god? What's the point of the cocoon now??? Why Mohg and not someone else? How does that act as a passage to the land of shadow and so on. It feels like such messy writing and I can smell the hardcore fromsoftware simps from a mile away about to tell me that it's SUPPOSED to be obscured, but idk if the basic things in the lore don't make sense and contradict each other is that really good writing? I would argue not, at least after SOTE lore.

I used to think Elden Ring had really good writing and interesting lore, but SOTE messes it up a-lot and ruins the main point of fromsoftware games's story-- interpretation.

It DOES feel very bland. like boring level of taking reddit theories that never made sense and making them into canon does not mesh. There were so many fun and interesting ways they could've gone with Miquella and Mohg lore, but choose not to.

oh well

[drenched-in-sunlight]

Hi there! I wanted to say your art is absolutely incredible and always brings me back to Elden Ring when I forget just how amazing the game is. I live for your depictions of Marika.🥹

I was partly just curious after you posted the recent family tree, is there a reaspn Ranni and Radahn don't make as much of an appearance in your drawings? What is your thoughts on their questline/storyline in general?

Thanks for all the cool art, you're getting better with every piece!!

tbh... i think draw Ranni a lot, she's literally the cover of my first fromsoft fanbook 🥲🥲

though most of my art of her is from 2 years ago, i wouldn't say i don't draw her often at all 😭 i've drawn Radahn 4-5 times too. i understand because i draw too much, it's easy to have an impression that i draw some specific characters less, but compared to, say, the Omen Twins or Rykard or Melina (who i keep meaning to draw but haven't got around to do so yet), Radahn and Ranni are two Carian characters i draw the most of that side of the family (well, Rellana is looking to dethrone them soon but you get what i mean aksfkjdfkj)

Radahn dudebro fans keep pointing fingers saying i hate him but i actually like him. as a guyfailure that is so obsessed with these symbols of a Lord in his father and Godfrey, yet failed to live up to any of them (*stare at that scene of Morgott whooping his ass*). his involvement in the DLC is an interesting spin on things to me, and make a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things (when i saw that we found like... 11 Miquella's Lily in places most personal to Radahn like Carian Manor and Sellia. hoo boy).

lately, i lowkey think Radagon specifically picked him for Miquella and encouraged his obsession with being a Lord. to me at least Radagon is really bitter that Godfrey is the First Lord and not him (her actual other's half! sentenced to live away from her while another man got to be her first in everything! the injustice!), so him not only discrediting Godfrey's descendants (whole thing with Hunters of TWLiD) but also preparing a whole new pair of Lord and God that should have been how he and Marika could have been from the start sounds like the kind of overcompensation he'd be doing (look honey that could be us but you tripping).

so in a way i do feel for Radahan and Miquella falling victims to Radagon's list of issues (though it's only one reason in many other reasons for them to turn out that way ofc. Radagon merely nudges the pieces into certain direction, they go barreling head first down on their own). and i actually like that i could come up with all that thanks to the DLC. imo it actually adds a lot more to Radahn and Miquella's character (depends on how you view the story though whoops).

you can say i like him (and Miq) the way one likes AC6 Iguazu... or Genichiro. the kind of hater characters that are doomed to fail from the start, but they are stubborn and will run head first into the wall again and again. and it's fun to put them in a jar and shake them.

Ranni... after the DLC my feeling for her is a bit more complicated. before i get why she did all those things and i like her story enough, but after the DLC as you see i come to really like Godwyn and links him closely to Marika. so now it's kinda awkward for me to insert Ranni in all the scenarios im drawing lately?

it's not that i stop liking her, it's simply that the scenario doesn't line up for me to add her in that's all. and it goes to other characters i haven't drawn tbh. not because i don't like them, i simply don't have anything in my brain about them to draw out. i don't think there's any characters in Elden Ring i hate tbh (yes i do like even the Hornsents. i find the stories in the scorpion stew and dried flower talisman really somber and give them a lot of humanity too, fucked up rituals aside).

and thank you for your kind words! my editor has been on my ass for a whole year about my art and it does help me improve a lot, im glad to know it shows in the quality of my fanarts as well!

[ghostofashina]

So I saw a video on the YouTube about a theory that Messmer is the son of the gloam eyed queen and Marika stole him and I, a Godwyn-Messmer twin truther, went "no, no way. Messmer and Godwyn are twins, one of them can't be the GEQ's son.... Unless...."

And then I thought. What if it's not Messmer that is GEQ's stolen son, but Godwyn.

I have three pieces of.... Not exactly evidence because these are all speculative and circumstantial, but I am having fun with it.

1) Godwyn's name. Every other Marika child has the initials of their parents in their name. Mohg and Morgott of Marika and Godfrey; Radahn, Rhykard, and Ranni of Radagan and Rennala; Messmer, Miquella, Malenia, and Melina of Marika and Radaghan (this is a translation thing; Japanese kana use the same symbols for both L and R, so in the original Japanese, the names of Marika and Radagan's children did have both Ms and R's). But. Godwyn. He only has Godfrey's G, no Marika M. Out of her 10 children, only her specialist, most important first born prince son ISNT named after her? Suspicious.

1A: Yes, I realize he does still have Godfrey's namesake. But if Marika stole a son, whos to say she didn't steal a husband as well. After all, the DLC claims that she "seduced" the previous god before her with her "wanton strumpet" ways. Maybe the GEQ had her eyes (eye?) on Godfrey.

1B: Why on Earth would Marika steal the son of an enemy Empyrean and make him her most specialist prince? Well, Godwyn went hard for the golden order. What better way to rub it in an old enemy's face than by stealing her son and making him the literal poster boy of your Golden Order.

2) Godwyn's body got all fucked up when he died. Yes, that was explained by his soul dying while his body lived on, but like. Those Who Live In Death don't have the same transformation, after all. They have something similar, but they can still ambulate. Also, they can be killed for real--Godwyn can't. And sure, maybe it's because he's a demigod.... Buuut if he was the son of the GEQ, the creator of the Rune of Death, perhaps that explains why he became so powerful within death. Before, he was a standard golden boy--he did great things for the golden order, of course, but he didn't seem to have any specific connection to a certain type of magic or outer god like any of the other demigods. But then he died and became the Prince of Death. Not the King of Death, but a Prince. An offspring of a Queen. Maybe Marika.... Or maybe the Queen who made the Rune of Death.

Or it's all baloney and whatever. I still like the idea of twin Messmer and Godwyn more, but it's fun to theory craft. Though, hey, Marika had kids with Rennala, after all. Who's to say she didn't have a kid with the Gloam Eyed Queen too? We stan a bisexual queen.

Hello, hello ~

I am myself a GodMes twins truther LAKSLKAS So yeah, I stand with you. I saw this one and was exactly like that "that can't be uwu i cut their umbilical cord myself"

But, as you said, Godwyn being the outsider is just a very funny scenario. And it fits, it truly did. Especially for what we love the most: angst

@whyyouacknsocraycray made a post once, talking about a possibility of Godwyn being Godfrey's son with someone else — which would explain the G and potentially the GEQ — and it rented a house inside my thoughts, because it's really good just to see this perfect, golden son, being disowned of his reality.

It could work wonders that sort of scenario, perhaps even more than Messmer being the stolen kid. Because we all know about the "seduction and betrayal".

Let's consider two fun scenarios: Marika sends Godfrey to seduce GEQ and, once she births a perfect son, he is stolen — I can even go far weirder here and say she wanted this perfect son to be made so she could use him as the blessing for Messmer's maledictions. Marika once made a blessing for Messmer, but never again.

Or Godfrey was already promised to the GEQ expecting his child and Marika took it all from her — with the help of Godfrey himself, seeing more potential in Marika.

Now: I know shit about the GEQ, I must admit. Never dug into that part of lore. So I have no idea if these scenarios could actually fit in the current timeline lol but, just like you said, it's fun to think of different stuff from usual.

And, it's where the fun begins. I think every scenario that disrupts the "perfect" order is hella interesting. So if we have this golden prince, who grew believing to be the heir (even though he ain't empyrean), the champion of this empire, his mother's most beloved and perfect son... taking it all from him is just tasty.

To see his struggle with reality, considering himself a bastard, suddenly feeling an outsider. I can even see him disappointed with Messmer, accusing him of knowing the truth and hiding it from him. Just delicious angst.

And yes, I agree with you. Even when I don't agree with some theories, I think it's quite cool to invest in different scenarios just to explore all the possibilities — even when they are insane. That's the fun bit. I think these sort of things are more fun when you are invested in making them interesting rather than just right or true.

[drmobiusvanch]

HERE'S HOW MOHGMIQ CAN STILL WIN

This was originally part of a big thing I was writing trying to organize the various theorycrafting I'm doing about the DLC, specifically including Mohg, and while this certainly isn't all and wasn't related to the actual stuff I was trying to discuss-that is, the Formless Mother, who she is, what she is, and what she has to do with everything-this ended up happening and it was a way to spill out my thoughts on paper so.

MASSIVE SHADOWS OF THE ERDTREE SPOILERS, AS WELL AS DISCUSSION OF INCEST AND DUBIOUS CONSENT OF ALL STRIPES THAT MAY END UP STRAIGHT UP NONCON DEPENDING ON HOW YOU INTERPRET IT.

First off, let's clarify some things re: Mohg.

First, the explicit canon:

1-Mohg was brainwashed. This is inarguable.

2-Likely pre-brainwashing, Mohg revered the Formless Mother. He was already Lord of Blood with Ansbach as his servant when Miquella approached them.

3-Mohg 'kidnapped' Miquella from the Haligtree.

Here's where my theorizing begins.

First, Miquella's goals. Pre-DLC, I assumed Miquella was already in the cocoon at the Haligtree, but that obviously raises the question of why in the world Miquella would need to brainwash Mohg.

Second, MOHG'S goals. Mohg's clear goal is to create his own dynasty and serve the Formless Mother. And here's where I'm going to get controversial:

I believe that Mohg's sexual desire for Miquella was not compelled.

(And yes, it's sexual desire, 'shared his bloody bedchamber' ffs.)

Throughout the DLC, we see many people affected by Miquella's charm. It can affect large parts of their personality-see Leda-but it also works fundamentally differently. Though they cannot act contrary to Miquella's goals, they all do maintain their own personalities: even before regaining himself, Ansbach wants to investigate Miquella.

Furthermore, none of Miquella's followers behave anything like Mohg's obsession with Miquella. They show none of his possessiveness, and Kindly Miquella is nothing like Mohg's 'dearest Miquella'-a term of endearment, rather than beatification. Love and its different manifestations is a major theme reoccuring with both Miquella(see: the rest of the DLC) and Mohg. For Mohg, even beyond Varre's dialogue about him always tying back to 'love' and the roses he's associated with, there's also his love as a foil to his brother's. Morgott is defined, in many ways, by his deep and unrequited love for the Golden Order. I previously considered Mohg's love for Miquella as a foil to this, and I still do, but in different sense. Mohg's love for Miquella is a creepier version of Morgott's for the Erdtree-explicitly sexual and manipulative/possessive, but still devoting his entire self to someone who won't-and by the end of the DLC, can't-love him back.

(To put it in Greek terms, Mohg's feelings are 'mania', obsessive love, as opposed to, say, Malenia->Miquella(storge, familial love) or Rellana->Messmer(agape, unconditional love).)

So. Miquella wants to become a god, and brainwashes Mohg to enable him to do this, causing Mohg to fall in obsessive love with him. Mohg's love for Miquella and whether it takes the form of the chaste love of everyone else or the sexual love Mohg has is irrelevant to Miquella's plans. I don't know whether Miquella actually intended to kill Mohg in the beginning-the Miquella who entered the Land of Shadow was a fundamentally different person than the one we fight at the end of the DLC. And this is where we get to the last part: the fact that now Mohg's feelings for Miquella not only foil Morgott's for the Golden Order, but Miquella's for Radahn-which are also explicitly romantic(if not sexual) and also coded as dubiously consensual at best. (Though Mohg/Miquella is dubcon in multiple directions at once, win for them!)

Miquella clearly loves-or loved-Radahn. That's, IMO, very clearly the intent of this item description:

In their childhood, Miquella saw in Radahn a lord. His strength, and his kindness, that stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves. And so Miquella made his heartfelt wish. That Radahn would one day be his king consort.

Miquella, as a child, was struck by Radahn's strength and kindness. (Note: this is not saying that Radahn is a good person. It is saying he is a kind one.) Radahn seemed to him like an ideal lord, a fairy-tale king who he can rule together with, and wished for that. Miquella's love for him is sort of an intense puppy love. Now, several people have said that consorts can be platonic, but a)it's more interesting this way and b)Miquella was a kid. No matter how adult his mind grew, his feelings for Radahn solidified in his childhood, when he wasn't really thinking of how Radahn's strength could work to solidify his rule. He was thinking about how Radahn is strong and kind and amazing and Miquella's going to marry him when he grows up.

Except Miquella can't love. Miquella sacrifices all of his love, along with everything else. This is one of the most important thematic moments of the DLC. It's not simply that Miquella's ability to compel love affected his own ability to understand love, which it may have-Miquella, to become a god, became something that cannot love. So what love Miquella may have once held for Radahn is completely irrelevant, much like whether Mohg loved Miquella before Miquella brainwashed him. Miquella still cared for Radahn and Malenia, but it wasn't anything like love, not even Mohg's obsessive, all-consuming love that ignores what Miquella wants. Miquella is unable to love even like that. His feelings for Radahn are someone's for a favorite thing, not a person.

In conclusion: good fucking food.