#why didn't frigga see a problem? did anyone see a problem with it?

[criminalmutantsins]

Sylki Rewrite

(Note: Although I don’t like Sylki, I don’t have a problem with anyone who ships them.) Warning: Internalized Homophobia Mention

Two weeks ago, I binged the Loki series. To put it shortly, I loved it! Loki has one of the best character development I’ve ever seen. He moved past his insecurities and realized what he truly wanted- to be loved and seen. The time aspect was easy to digest and didn’t complicate or overinflate the concept too much. I loved the new characters, especially Mobius and O.B. Mobius and Loki’s chemistry was amazing and so natural, which makes sense since Mobius was his first friend. O.B. was lovable and so nerdy. I hope they both return to future projects. Though I didn’t connect with her as much, B-15 was a good addition, and would be happy to see her return. When it comes to Sylvie, I'm mixed with her. She’s well-written for the most part, but I didn’t like the Sylki romance in S1, and her attitude got irritating in S2 (I'll most likely write a separate post on it). Alongside thinking Loki being attracted to a version of himself is weird, their romance felt rushed and unnatural. I couldn’t really see Loki being attracted to/like/in love with someone that quickly and Sylvie looked like she barely tolerated him, even in the second season. Honestly, I think this romance was pushed by Disney instead of the writers, mainly because there was a moment in Episode 4 where Mobius rants about how strange the attraction was. I’d like to think that was the writers calling out Disney for how weird this idea was. I would’ve liked it more if Loki and Sylvie had a sibling-like relationship. I would’ve written it where Loki feels protective of Sylvie because he sees a bit of himself in her such as his anger, loneliness, and wish to belong somewhere. But, he also respects her because she lived alone and in survival mode, teaching herself how to use magic and escape death. In turn, Sylvie sort of resents Loki, especially when he mentions his relationship with Frigga, since he lived in Asgard and had a family while she lived alone and in fear. I would have a scene where Sylvie lashes out at him (maybe when he accidentally breaks the Tempad), calling him a fool for taking his family’s love for granted. On the other hand, Loki snapped and said how she had the chance to be her true self while Loki lived under Thor’s shadow and Asgard’s expectations. Maybe go as far as to mention how he felt he had to hide his bisexuality and genderfluidity out of fear of not being accepted. By the end of the argument, both realize how their pain does not absolve others and that there is good and bad in their lives. Other than the kiss scene, the scene with Loki trying to stop Sylvie from killing He Who Remains was great. 

I was so glad S2 left the ship behind. It was one of the reasons why I think S2 is a big improvement. I can’t really describe their relationship since there are moments when they get along but there are others when Sylvie is really standoffish and doesn't seem to like Loki. Maybe the closest description would be bickering siblings, which is close to what I wanted.

Did anyone else get nervous that there would be a Sylki kiss in the S2 finale? I was, especially when he was trying to stop her from killing HWR again. If they did, it would've messed with my enjoyment since there was no indication in previous episodes that they were continuing the romance. Thankfully, they didn't and the finale was perfect, even if it broke my heart that Loki will live alone for as long as he's alive. I wanted him to be happy with everyone.

[therese-lokidottir]

Thor apologizes

See, Thor's apology is a demonstration of the problem. Thor apologizes but he doesn't actually know what he did wrong and that's the problem. Loki needs that understanding. True, for Thor it is a development for him to apologize at all. But for Loki, it's the worst thing he can be hearing right now. What Thor ends up saying is "I'm sorry you feel that way, now please stop." No promise to change or start listening or treating. It's been a millennium and Thor doesn't understand why Loki is upset. 

And this goes into the Avengers, Thor tells Loki to come home. But, like, then what? What happens when Loki goes home? Loki is being asked to go back to the status quo. Thor is surface-level apologizing never fully reflecting on their relationship or why Loki is so angry. 

"Stop, Loki" "Stop." "Come home, Loki"

If Thor truly wanted to know why Loki was doing he'd ask more than once. When Loki does tell him at least part of his motivation Thor rejects it. Thor does not want to admit Loki got unfair treatment growing up. He refuses to admit that and he never offers Loki any kind of better treatment. He brings up the past every time, the past in which Loki was deeply unhappy.

But again, I don't think Thor had any idea Loki was working for someone in Avengers. Maybe he should have, but he didn't.

Yeah, but the thing is Loki had to get the mind stone from somewhere. He had to be working with someone to get access to Chitauri. Loki doesn't need to say anything, he has to have connections to somebody to do the things he did. As someone who is to be king and is from a warrior culture, it's just rock stupid to never look into that. This goes out to Odin as well.

"Never" is a bit strong. I think Loki is in jail maybe 2 weeks before Thor breaks him out.

This can be missed if you not paying attention. But it's been a year, TDW takes place a year after the Avengers. Thor did not attempt to even see Loki for a year. The reason why this makes Thor look so bad is because Asgard's prisons are so horrific. The cells are an empty white room with nothing, not even a cot to sleep on. Loki got some furniture and books because of Frigga, but if you know the deleted scenes Thor questions why Frigga was even bothering with Loki. Thor was fully content with letting Loki rot on the floor for a year. Which regardless of what anyone did that level of solitary confinement is a form of torture.

Why I say Loki puts in the work and Thor doesn't, is because Loki knows he probably won't be listened to yet still tries to talk. Loki is the one who tries to make emotional connections. Loki is the one who risks himself for Thor time and again. Thor does want to listen to Loki's thoughts and feelings. Thor does not want to make compromises. He doesn't even want to accept Loki's help when it's not on his terms. 

 If Thor was willing to put the work in he would have come down a talk to Loki. Even if Loki did terrible things, even didn't talk back, if Thor was willing to put the work in he would have tried even when things got the hardest, but he didn't. 

and I agree with @ripfic Thor at not point shows to be understanding to Loki in Ragnarok at any point. If he did, he'd finally understand why Loki was so mad and he wouldn't be blaming Loki for everything going wrong when really it was because of Odin's lies.

Dark World: Thor presumably doesn’t visit Loki in solitary confinement for a year, until he absolutely has to. He blames him, cuts ties of bonding over lost mother, threatens him, and is just there to use Loki’s skills because there was literally no one else.

Ragnarok: Loki visits Thor in his populated jail cell on day 1 at risk to his own reputation, bonds over lost father, offers Thor help at the cost of his own safety…

[goldenbitimes]

Spoilers for What If... I guess?

I knew something didn't add up, like why would Laufey sacrifice his own son to die alone? I know Laufey's evil (is he though? or is it another of Odin’s bullshit gaslighting?), but he's still a king and knows the importance of an heir. 

Like that story never made sense. Laufey was just trying to keep Loki out of the way of the war and then Odin pulled a Mother Gothel so that he could ensure what? Jotunhiem and Asgard would be at peace? He literally KIDNAPPED THE HEIR TO THE THRONE. 

I just thought that Odin was desperate to have Loki so the frost giants would never wage war on them.

[kaz11283]

Where Were You

1) Dont You Say That....Not you

31) Your Alive

10) Where Were You When I Needed You

~~~~~

Ok so this was originally an ask but I goofed and just posted the prompts. So after saving them and trying to figure out what to write for the longest I have no idea who requested this because they were anonymous (so this is for you Anon if your out there)

Characters: you x Loki

Warnings: angst, fluff at the end, Loki being a slight asshat, hurt reader

Summary: You were Lokis only good thing that had happened in his life but when the hunger to rule over the kingdom gets the best of him and he fails where does that lead you? Your one love gone to never come back.

Announcement: I have been on a much needed LOA and after coming back I have been elbows deep trying to catch up woth everything going on at work. Was the trip worth it? Yes and i had some much needed time off with the fam and the babe. Would i do it again? In a heart beat. Did I miss work? Gods no but I did miss my little tumblr family that i have. So after a good bit of relaxing and my toes in the sand i am back!

I also wanna give a shout out to @high-functioning-lokipath for reading over this MULTIPULE times while I was freaking out about what to do!

Loki Masterlist

💚💚💚💚💚💚

~~~~~

"Loki!" You ran after him as he headed to the bit frost. "Please stop! You dont have to do this! You dont have to be someone that your not!"

"See that right there is the problem everyone seems to be having lately. Maybe this is who I am. Maybe this is who I want to be. After all Lady Y/n you are the one that has always told me that i could be anything I want to be. And I want to be king of Asguard." He said turning on you.

"Loki you are smarter than this! You are just upset about finding out who you truly are." You walked up to him and placed your hand on his cheek. You seen him almost give in before snapping back out of it.

"Ah yes, a frost giant? Someone who couldnt be loved by neither the family who abandoned me or the family that took me in." He spit the words at you.

"Loki, I love you. I have always loved you. You know that better than anyone." You grabbed at his emerald green cloak pulling at it causing him to turn around to face you with a cold look. You could tell that all emotion was gone at that point. You took a step away from him.

"You might love me but I have never truly loved you. You were mearly there to keep my bed warm at night" He said stepping closer to you. With the words came a cold creeping into your chest. Pain literally tore through your heart as they slowly sunk in.

You raised your hand and slapped him as hard as you could causing his head to jerk to the side. "Dont you say that, Loki Odinson, dont you dare compair me to one of your whores."

"Get out of my way." He said grabbing you by the shoulders and shoving you to the side. You crumpled to the cold stone floor moving your hand to your stomach as you watched the man that you had loved your entire life walk out the front of the castle.

You wasnt really sure how long you sat there crying when you looked up you could see the sun barly peeking over the horizon and you stumbled to your feet and slowly made your way back to the room you and Loki had shared.

Pushing the door open you heard a sniffle and seen Thor sitting on the bed, his head in his hands. "Thor?" He jump up off the bed and ran to you pulling you into him.

"Lady Y/n! I didn't know what had happened to you. I thought.... I thought that he might have done something before....before." He pulled you away to look at your face.

"Before what Thor?" He turned away from you a tear trailing down his face. "Before what Thor?!" You yelled.

"He fell." Your heart sank, emptyness filled you with the darkest feeling you would have never thought possible. You stumbled to the nearest chair and collapsed into it barely feeling the warmth of the fire that was slowly dying out. "I looked for you after. I couldnt find you, I thought that maybe he had done something, but I knew that he would never do anything to hurt you."

"Thor, I have to tell you something that not even Loki knew." You stared directly into the flames watching as they slowly died as the sun rose higher in the sky. "I was waiting till this was all over but now I wont get a chance to tell him." You take a deep breath and look up at him. "I'm pregnant. I am going to have his baby and he isnt even here to do this with me." You placed your head in your hands and started to cry.

"We will figure this out Lady Y/N. We cannot let father know but we can tell mother and she will help us." Thor said pulling you up from the chair and rushing from the room.

~~~~

Two years later

~~~~

You sat with your daughter in the all mothers garden waiting for your husband to arrive.

"Astrid, please dont chase the cat." You called watching her almost grab its tail. The almost two year old stopped to look back at you and giggle before taking off again. She was so much like her father with her black hair and green eyes along with her always trying to cause trouble.

"Lady Y/N, your husband will be arriving soon. He asked that you meet him in the throne room, but let one of the maids take the princess back to your living quarters." One of the guards called walking into the garden.

"She is always there to greet him when he returns. What could possibly keep him from wanting her there?" You asked as your daughter ran up to you giggling.

"Dada." She cooed clinging to your leg.

"He has brought a prisoner and he doesnt think that she should be there. He hopes that you will understand, and that once everything is said and done he will be able to spend some much needed time with his family." Your heart sank at the words prisoner. Leading Astrid to one of the ladies in waiting and kissing her head you promised you would be back soon. As you walked down the halls you could swear that you heard your heart hammering. As you opened the door to the thron room your eyes locked with Thor.

"Darling! I am so glad you are home." You said throwing your arms around his neck and kissing his cheek.

"I see it didnt take you long to find another prince to bed, my pet." Your blood ran cold as ice when you heard the voice from behind you. As you turned you looked at none other than Loki. Tears sprang to your eyes as you looked at him. He looked weak, thinner than you remembered almost sickly.

"I thought you died." You placed a hand over your mouth in shock.

"Seeing what has become of my once true love I wish I would have." He said looking between you and Thor.

"Loki, hold your tongue." Frigga said from across the room.

"But arent you proud mother? With me out of the way all your dreams came true it looks like." He said smirking looking back at you and Thor. You had grabbed ahold of his arm for support.

"Loki th-" The door had burst open at that point as Astrid came running to you and Thor a maid chasing behind her.

"Dada! Dada!" She threw herself into Thors arms as he picked her up.

"Hello my little love." Thor said kissing her and tickling her with his beard causing her to giggle. Loki stood observing, watching everything take place. He wasnt blind to the black hair that she had or the mischievous gint in her eye that he also had.

"Wow, stricking resemblance brother. She looks just like you." He grined looking between you and Thor.

"Loki, shut up." Thor said handing your daughter to you. "Why dont you take Astrid back to our quarters and I shall be there in a moment." He said kissing the top of your head.

"How sweet brother, a girl who simply rolls from one bed to another, and now a built in family. The girl must be about two now? How absolutly interesting."

You sat Astrid down next to Thor and walked over to the man that use to mean everything to you and stood right in front of him. "You, Loki Odinson, do not need to look, breath, or assume anything. Not towards my daughter."

"Interesting use of words dear my-" he was cut off by a sharp slap across the face.

"Come darling. Lets get you in the bath." You said opening your arms, your daughter running into them.

After you have made sure all the dirt was washed from her and she was nesseled into your bed nice and warm you sat by the fire with tears streaming down your face when Thor finally entered the room looking exhausted.

"Let me help you take your armor off. There is a warm bath for you also. Make sure the dirt is all off before climbing into bed, those are clean sheets." You stood walking over to him and undoing the straps that held his chest plate on.

"What did I do to deserve this kindness from you?" He asked placing his finger under your chin making you look up at him.

"You took me in, loved me after your brother couldnt, you have helped me raise a child that is not your but you let her call you dad. Me and my child both think the world of you Thor and honestly I couldnt imagine it without you in my life." You placed a hand on his cheek and brought him down to kiss him.

He leaned his head agintst yours and sighed. "You must go talk to my brother. He is down in the cells."

"What if I dont want to? What if I want to keep this happy little bubble that we have created?" A tear rolled down your cheek.

"If not for you or me, go talk to him for her." He said motioning over to Astrid who was snorring lightly in the middle of the bed. "I will look over her. For tonight and for always, it doesnt matter what happens tonight I will always love both you and her. And I know you will love me to but not as much as you have loved my brother." You were both crying now, you had decided two years prior that you would give this man what was left of your heart because the love of your life was gone but now? Now you were torn between the safty of being with Thor and the uncertainty of if Loki could ever love you the way he had before.

You kissed Thor on the cheek again making him promise to take a bath before going to bed causing him to laugh. "Yes I promise. Now go before I decide to keep you here with me." He handed you your dark blue cloak and shoved you out of the room.

Silently you made your ways to the dungeons under the castle not being noticed by anyone at this time of night, you pulled the hood up as not to be spotted by any of the other prisoners.

"I was wondering if you was going to make an apperance Y/N." Loki said, he was facing away from you his hands placed behind his back. "You've made quite the impression on my brother. Such a good impression that you two are married. Tell me dear is he as good as I was?" He asked turning to finally face you. You stood there shocked.

"Loki," you looked up at him. "This is not the time nor place for talk like that. I came here to ask what happened to you? I thought you had died."

"So you crawl in bed with my brother?!" He yelled hitting the shield between you and him with his fist.

"So I married your brother to save not only me but our daughter!" His jaw dropped at the admission. "Oh dont act so suprised. I know you know that she is yours. For norms sake she has your hair."

"I never thought you would admit it."

"I cant hide it Loki. Your mother is the one that came up with the plan for me to marry Thor."

"I bet father loved the fact that you were pregnant before the wedding." He said rolling his eyes.

"Odin would have killed us if he knew the secret!" You yelled, fire in your eyes. "Its not like you were around to protect us, to keep us safe. Your daughter has magic and is part Jötunn." He froze staring at you wide eyed. "Where were you Loki! Where were you when I needed you? When we needed you?" You screamed at him tears running down your face.

Neither of you had noticed Thor or Frigga talking to the guard in the shadows, neither of you had realized that the shield keeping Loki in his cell had been dropped until Loki had actually reached for you yanking you to his body. You clung to him like if you let go he would disappear all over again. You buried your face in his neck, his hair tickling your face as you felt his pulse aginst your lips for the first time in a long time. His hand was at the base of your neck as his face was buried in your hair, you felt his tears land on your cheek. He pulled back from you, both hands now on the side of your face as he wiped your tears away with his thumbs.

"I promise on all nine realms y/n I will never leave you or my daughter again. I promise that i will never leave you alone, I will always be there as I should have been in the begining of it all. You should not have had to go through alone." He leaned forward kissing you. You melted into the kiss, it had been forever since you had felt so connected with anyone like this. His lips were cool aginst yours as you both moved in perfect sync batteling for dominace over the other finally you gave into him. You pulled away slightly out of breath.

"I wasn't alone, I knew that I had a peice of you with me and i knew I wasnt alone at all. I knew you would come back. You always come back." You smiled at him.

"For you my queen, always." He said pulling you into his arms again whispering words of love.

Tag List:

@high-functioning-lokipath

@serpentargo

@drbaureid

@poetic-fiasco

@kgirardin

@sophlubbwriting

@supbeeches

@rosaline-black

@jesuswasnotawhiteman

@natandersonnla

@delightfulheartdream

[blackypanther9]

Part 30 - I never wanted any of this

With Loki...

'Letructure ? Not a bad name...What does it mean ?'

'Strong spirit, intelligent, wise man, good King, pretender, clever, sly and many other things.'

'I didn't know...'

A soft chuckle was heard.

'Not surprising. You were rather busy in hating me and my race. You believed Odin's filthy lies instead.'

'He lied ?'

'He talked the Frost Giants down. All of that were lies. Laufey is nice and others are too. There are always evil ones, but Laufey is keeping his eyes on those. Just like Asgardians and Odin. Laufey never abandoned you. You were stolen.'

'He left me for dead.'

'Tell me that, Loki. How can a FROST GIANT die in the COLD and suffer ? It was supposed to hide us and it did, until Odin took the casket. The shield then broke and we were visible. Are you that idiotic ? A FROST GIANT suffering in the COLD and doomed to FREEZE to death ? Listen to yourself ! We are immune to the cold ! Wakey wakey, Loki Odinson !'

Loki looked down. He was right...he should have known.

'Why would Laufey hide us in a safety bubble of ice and feed us beforehand, if he planned to abandon us ? Stupid Loki. You believed Odin blindly. And because you were busy with getting it over in your head, pushed me away and ignored the twinkling in Odin's eyes, you missed the lie. You are an idiot.'

'Odin used that moment to hurt me...'

'And get out of your upcoming wrath's way. You would have killed him and he knew that, if he would tell you that he stole you from Laufey, because he wanted to use you as a little slave. Sadly Frigga had other plans and slowly he also started to like you and Thor loved you as a Brother. Then he decided to just shut up and not tell anyone.'

'Anyone ?'

'He would have told you as soon as you would have been a Teenager and then stuffed you into prison the rest of your life, but he started to care for you. So that failed. Then he didn't tell his people, because he cared for you still. He didn't want to put you to shame anymore and with that our whole race. Instead he let Thor. That is why he had a problem with you and not behaving.'

'And now ?'

'He has regret. In not telling you and in letting it all come to this. But he will have to make a choice now. We will see, for what he will be.'

Then Letructure was gone again. Loki felt lonely. Destiny stormed down and growled angered. Loki looked at her and saw her anger.

"Let us hope that they care for you, Loki. Or else these 2 days you have time left, were for nothing."

"Do they know ?"

"Oh they do. They also know who is under the mask."

"You."

She made a bow.

"Thank you."

"How did you get on the ship and stole the informations from their ship, without them knowing ?"

"I have my ways."

"Destiny, I am going to die anyways, so why not just tell me everything ?", Loki asked her saddened.

She looked at him and then sighed exhausted.

"Fine. Let me start from the very beginning..."

Loki looked at her, listening closely.

"As I was a child, I knew that I wasn't normal. I mean normal like...my family. My Parents are two mixed kinds of Creatures each. I am all of them together. The first 2 elements, I learned, were Ice and Fire. I never told anyone that I discovered them. After that, I had Magic. Sadly we had no books about Magic...but Potions. So I learned that instead and lastly I discovered Dark Magic. Mally had many books, so I stole them and trained. Seidr, I experimented on it, trained and noted down what is okay and what is an absolute no – no. Aki always trained Ash and they never knew, that I watched them and secretly trained with. Then I figured out that Ash had no soul, from Mally. So I searched in books of 'Demonic Desires' for a cure. I found out that, if Ash didn't get a soul by birth, he had to craft himself one or else he will die."

Loki stared at her in utter silence.

"I told Ash everything and he in return told Aki. He wasn't happy, at all, that this had to happen. The next day they both went to Asgard and didn't return for a long while. Mally left 3 days after that. And since that faithful day...everything changed. I learned to manipulate water, air, stone, heat and more. Aki and Mally returned 2 months later again and Daniela and I played and fooled around. Then she tripped and fell down a cliff. It could have killed her, so I used air and saved her, but I collapsed after that and she told them my ability. As I awoke again, they both were concerned and took care of me. I thought they worried about me.... But they worried just about my Powers and their family. They said I was a threat to them... I thought I just dreamed that, but their behavior towards me changed drastically."

Loki's eyes widened. Destiny's expression went from sullen to grim. She had distaste, anger, hatred and betrayal in her heart. It was scarred with those emotions.

"Since that day, I always tried to fit back in. I tried to gain back their love. I tried to show them, that I was still worthy.... But they didn't accept me back. ....They never did...."

Loki looked at Destiny with sympathy. He truly felt bad for her.

"And as I realized that, that my efforts were for nothing...I gave up on them. They didn't want me as their daughter anymore ? Fine then. Then I am not their daughter anymore and nor are they my Parents anymore. Who needs them ? I do not.", Destiny growled out.

There was silence for a while.

"Alright. I understand the half of it. Odin was even worse to me. But I had Frigga on my side. But you...You really had nobody of your Parents on your side. Your little Sister never knew what to say and messed up most of the times and Ash didn't know any of this."

"Don't call that Traitor by his long abandoned name in my presence !", she screeched.

Loki shut up.

"He brought this upon himself !"

"He didn't. He asked Aki and he always said that you were fine. He couldn't ask Heimdall, because Aki never left him out of his eyes. Now he wants to fix this."

"Even if he did, that doesn't fix anything ! He left me all alone with everything !!! He promised he wouldn't ever do this to me !!! He promised to come and see me !!! He promised me that if anything happens, all I had to do was call his name !!! I did that in HYDRA and at Thanos, he never came !!! He said he even would fight Aki for that, just to safe me !!!", she yelled at Loki.

She broke down, sobbing and hugging herself. Loki stared at her in horror but also in sadness. He knew that feeling of betrayal from Thor.

"He never cared... No one ever did...", she whimpered out.

'Loki do something ! Cheer her up ! SOMETHING ! She is still your friend ! Our friend...', Letructure told Loki.

His mouth was dry, but he tried to make her better.

"Destiny... Hey.... Look at me."

She did just that.

"Come here. I know chains that hold me down aren't really helping, but I know that hugs definitely do. Come here..."

Destiny was so unbelievably broken. She shakily stood up and went to the little 'cage' Loki was held inside and she unlocked it. Then she went inside, but didn't hug him. Instead she freed him from the chains and then collapsed into his chest, hugging him tightly and bailing her eyes out.

Loki also held her tightly and rocked them both back and forth, but he didn't say anything, knowing that it would all be a lie anyways. Nothing is alright, nothing is okay and nothing will be okay soon. There is nothing to say.

"I don't want to kill you ! I don't want to do this anymore !! All I want is someone who cares ! Someone who knows how it is ! All I ever wanted was to be a happy kid with a happy family ! I wanna have a real home ! A real family ! Real friends ! I want my soul back !", Destiny cried in Loki's chest loudly.

He hugged her tighter, feeling himself getting tears in the eyes.

"I am scared, Loki ! Two days is not much time ! Then I will be soulless and you will be gone ! I don't wanna do this ! I wanna go to a home and have a normal life ! I never wanted to become a Criminal !! Please believe me ! I never wanted any of this !"

"I know...", he choked out.

"I know you never wanted any of this. I believed you always. I am scared too. I am scared of my Death, I am scared for you, I am scared that something bad will happen to you. Destiny, if you get your soul back, without taking mine, I will be there for you. I care for you. I know, hearing the God of Lies telling you that, sounds already like a filthy lie, but I am not lying. I like you, girl."

Destiny squeezed him tighter and Loki did the same. And they stayed like that for a long while.

Masterlist HERE !

[maple-seed]

Likewise I am also very excited to get to talk about this show. I don't know anyone IRL who has watched it and I've avoided most online discussions because they tend to be vitriolic. It seems to be, like you said, extremely polarizing and it's hard to participate when you don't find yourself at either end.

I'm gonna talk some more but I'm worried about the lengths here now so I'll put it behind a cut.

I think Sylvie was an interesting catalyst for events and I like Loki being confronted by a wildly different "self" in order to reframe his own image. Like a lot of things in the show she had potential to be more but there just wasn't the space. I'd rather see her better utilized than cut, personally. Hoping S2 does something interesting with her now that she's not on the single-minded mission of revenge.

You do make some good points about Mobius. It's funny you mention Owen Wilson's likeability because when I first saw the show I was telling my sister about it and said "If you want a character to be instantly likeable, you cast Owen Wilson." It really is some kind of primal force he has and it does muddy the waters a bit in the perception of the character.

Agreed that his relationships with Sylvie and Loki are very different and that makes what he does to Loki particularly horrible. Sylvie was just a name in a file (the wrong name at that, lol) but Loki he developed a camaraderie with. At the beginning I can give him a pass, he still sees variants not as people but as a problem that has to be corrected. He is saying what he needs in order to get what he wants. Still not nice, obviously. I'm going to take a pause here to say that I cannot tell what Disney/MCU wants to blame Loki for anymore. I doubt Mobius actually thinks Frigga's death is Loki's fault because he's got access to an essentially omniscient database. However, I feel with every fiber of my being that Loki would blame himself for Frigga's death, and I would bet a Loki expert would know that. Which is why he knows it will be an effective tool for manipulation. Again, not nice.

I will disagree that the show wants us to see Loki as a "bad friend". Mobius calls him that and believes him to be that because from his perspective he put his neck out for Loki and Loki ditched him the first chance he got. The show doesn't give us that, though. We get to see Loki's hesitation and deliberation in the grocery store. We can understand that he was choosing to either get answers or beat the variant or otherwise pursue any number of valid motivations by following her. We're given a sympathetic view, imo.

The totally inexcusable thing that Mobius does is definitely that time loop torture. It is basically hell that he sends Loki to. Someone could possibly make the argument that his feelings of betrayal sent him to the mindset that he had been wrong to trust a variant and they really are problems and not people... but I'm not that someone. I can't think of something that makes it ok, in my book. I know there's some time skips when they're in the void and maybe they hashed something out but god it's so so terrible and how do you make that up to someone? We needed to see some kind of resolution that was more than what we got when Mobius pulled him out if they didn't want us to think Mobius was an awful person.

Again, I think almost all of this could have been remedied with more time. I wish they would have made an actual season rather than what they did, which is what I would call a miniseries. The show had SO MUCH potential to be something really amazing. But Disney did this half-measure of 6 episodes which really stunted it.

Also, completely agree that the art direction/music/cinematography are all absolutely incredible and I could gush about it for days.

rewatching the Loki series, and the more I watch, the more I realize that Loki was not as OOC as most people say he is. Yeah, there are a lot of "he would not freaking say that" moments, but there are fewer than I remember. (Sylvie is also less annoying, but I'm only on episode 4, so that may change.)

What I am watching is Mobius systematically breaking down Loki psychologically and Loki desperately trying not to die or get beaten up the entire time. Loki would do anything to keep Mobius happy and Mobius knows that and exploits it. He manipulates Loki and never apologizes for any of it. Mobius is horrible.

The plot is still an absolute disaster though.

[silence-burns]

Please Hate Me //part 24

Fandom: Marvel

Summary: Based on “Imagine having a love/hate relationship with Loki.” by @thefandomimagine​

"This is a bad idea," Loki voiced his thoughts. 

"You make it sound like that’s new information." 

"Well, at first I thought it all might work out and make the day interesting, but right now I'm a hundred percent sure today's going to be as terrible as the entirety of last week." 

You gasped dramatically. "Terrible? But you had a good laugh with me!"

"What else was I supposed to do when my life was being ruined and my dignity trampled? File a complaint? To whom could I address it?" he asked, words sharp. 

"Why are you asking me? That sounds like your problem." 

"You don't see it as your problem only because you're the problem." 

"Nah. You're overthinking it." 

"Well, I suppose one of us has to balance out your lack of—" 

You cut him off with a sudden glint in your eyes. You stopped in the middle of the sidewalk, right in front of him, forcing people to walk around the two of you with annoyed grimaces.

"Did you just say 'us'? Could it be that I've finally grown on you?" 

Loki sighed a very resigned sigh. "Yeah. Like a tumor." 

Your smile was blinding nonetheless and caused him to turn his head the other way. It was the only reason he turned his head, obviously. Your joy was unreasonable. It wasn’t not like the word slipped off his tongue on accident and he tried to brush it off… 

He only listened to your following babbling with one ear, focusing just enough to know when to nod and grunt some confirmation at the right moment. It wasn't on purpose, at least not entirely. It just so happened that his mind was occupied by different matters at the moment. 

The path you decided on took you through what you described as quite a nice part of the city. Loki had his doubts about sanity and taste of whoever was behind the design of some of the buildings. The architecture was outrageously bland and plain and no matter how hard he tried, Loki could not find any reason behind such a fascination with squares and rectangles. Involuntarily, he thought back to the elegant arches and ethereal facades of Asgard's places of culture. The rich gold and vibrant colors that brought up all of the beauty of the city and homes of its people clashed violently with what he was seeing now. And why was everything so dull? 

You crossed the street, following the mass of people rushing in the same direction. The fumes in the air brought a grimace to Loki's face. You noticed, and forgot about whatever you were just talking about. 

"You okay?" 

Loki's attention snapped back to you, surprised with how much genuine concern could be heard in your voice. 

Well, you had already proven a few times that you meant him no harm, which was nice coming from someone on this savage, disgusting realm, but Loki was not yet used to it. He was trying, though, which he found surprising. 

You frowned at his lack of response and took one of his hands in yours, warming it up. "Are you cold? I told you to bring gloves. We could warm up in one of the shops right there if you want?" 

If you didn't know him any better, you'd say Loki looked flustered, but since it would be very out of character, you decided he must have just been overwhelmed with a world that must be so different from his. Your suspicions were confirmed when he insisted on walking. The hint of color on his cheeks must've been a figment of your imagination. 

"I'm a Frost Giant, after all," he explained, very interested in the display of one of the bakeries. "The cold doesn't bother me as much as others, regardless of my clothing." 

"Damn, wish I could say the same. It must come in real handy in weather like this," you gestured to the white blankets of snow covering every surface around. It was still fresh and clean, changing the world into something a little prettier than it usually was. Or maybe it was because it covered the trash littering the streets. 

Loki followed your gaze to the few tiny flakes of snow flying loosely in the air. The sky was clear, indicating fine weather for the near future. People didn't seem to pay much attention to the weather, if only to watch out on particularly slippery parts of the pavements. 

It was a shame, though, Loki thought. The snow was the only reason the city wasn't completely hideous to his eyes. It might have been caused by the Frost Giant blood in his veins, but he had to admit he enjoyed the walk through the whitened streets more than he anticipated, even putting the architecture aside. 

The air, despite the disgusting fumes the cars around restlessly continued to produce, had the bite and frost in it that he'd always enjoyed. He remembered the days spent outside from dawn till dusk with Thor, running around the palace's grounds, building their own fortresses from snow and branches and then attacking one another until their hands were sore and their runny noses frozen. Those were the few memories Loki didn't mind his brother in. He was a terrible fortress architect. 

They often ventured far, and made Frigga worry with how late they finally made it home. Even Loki's hands were cold by then, and his clothes damp and wet, but he was happy nonetheless, innocent and unaware of what his future would throw him into. 

Loki looked down at his hands. Those days were gone, and not much could bring them back. Even winter felt different in this world, more polluted and tamed. The frost was more of a suggestion rather than a sharp bite to his skin. His heritage would always protect him from damage, but he felt the cold anyway. 

The sad truth was, the past had to stay in the past, no matter how tempting it was to recollect and dwell upon old memories. Lessons had to be learnt from it, but one can never move forward if they drag their past with them. Despite his greatest efforts, Loki didn't remember who wrote that. Still, the words felt right to him. 

With a silent nod to himself, he got back to the present. You were still standing by the bakery he randomly chose to buy some time. He had been conflicted, but things seemed clearer now. 

Once again confident in himself, Loki straightened his back and turned to face you - only to find you already staring at him. 

"How about we marry?" you proposed. 

All air left him. 

"I beg your pardon…?" was all he managed to stutter out, his voice taking a high pitch at the end, despite his efforts to keep it casual. 

You didn't seem to notice the chaos raging in his chest. You only knocked softly on one of the posters at the display. With his heart in his throat, Loki read it with more difficulty than it would usually take him. 

"It says… Some free samples are offered to everyone who proposes there? Is that a joke?" he asked finally. 

"Not according to those photos." You pointed to some low-quality pictures printed and glued under the poster. 

His frown only deepened along with his confusion. "You want us to fake a proposal for some free cake?" 

"Why not?" you shrugged. "It's not like anyone's going to check up on us to see if we actually get married later on." 

Loki blinked slowly. His heart did not slow down, but at least he was starting to hear his own thoughts over the blood pounding through his veins. "Could you please explain to me, why can't we just buy it like normal people?" 

"Do you have any money? Like, human money?" 

"No." 

"Well, all I've got on me will go for our breakfast, especially since Peter will be joining us shortly, and he always devours a double portion like he's been starving for the past year and a half. So, how about a quick proposal?" you nudged him with a wicked smile, ready to march in. 

Loki knew that stupid look on your face. You were not faking it. He sighed into the ridiculous, although nicely smelling scarf around his face. "Do you even have a ring?"

That seemed to pop your happy bubble. Your shoulders slumped and for a very brief, quickly shushed moment, Loki felt bad about it. "Damn it…" 

"Besides, how would you conceal, you know, my identity? It would be suspicious if I had to hide my whole face during all of this madness."

"That's the least of our problems, there's no way anyone would recognize you anyway. Look, we've made it pretty far already and no one's even looked at you twice—" 

You gestured around. 

A skinny, blond man was staring at Loki with a look of utter concentration and confusion of his face, no more than three paces away. 

You froze, and so did Loki. But only for a moment. 

You burst into a broad, jovial smile before approaching the man like a good friend. "What a beautiful morning, isn't it, my dear? Would you like to have a little chat with us about global warming? We've been sent out to make a quick survey about people's opinions and predictions—Where are you going, sir? It will only take a few minutes!" 

You looked after the man that would  choose to flee rather than continue the conversation. He didn't look back. 

You puffed out your chest with pride and turned to Loki. "Okay, I might've been a little bit wrong."

Loki was already casting quick glances around, fixing that stupid excuse of a cover around his face. He knew he would be recognizable. Too little time had passed since he was forced to attack the city, and people would still be bitter about it. Maybe after a few generations had passed and the memory of that disaster got lost in time… 

You joined your arms and shouldered him away from the spot and into a less crowded side-street. The snow crumbled underneath your feet, not yet turned into a muddy pulp. 

"Loki, listen, I know it might not seem like it, but I'm pretty sure everything's fine. The man didn't even recognize you, or he would’ve started screaming or talking in that very aggressive way some people love to use. And he didn't— which means he failed to connect the dots and probably thought you reminded him of some weird relative that he hasn't seen in years and just got confused… "

"You don't even believe that yourself," Loki cut you off. "You tend to babble when you get nervous."

"I… Well, you seem to know an awful lot about me for someone who hates my whole race." 

"It's not—" Loki opened his mouth but stopped. The words didn't seem important anymore. 

You paused too, still linked with him by the arm. Loki sensed the tension in your muscles and the change in your breath. 

Someone was waiting for you. 

The person wasn't tall, but the face obscured by a deep hood didn't seem the most trustworthy. A mugger wouldn't show up right in front of you, standing in the middle of the pavement. Surprisingly, no people seemed to be on your side of the street at all. 

Your fingers clenched on Loki's arm, as if you were preparing to haul him behind you. That brought a ghost of a smile on his face. As if he would let you. 

The man pointed a finger at Loki. "You should NOT be here." 

And that was when you recognized his voice. "Wong??" 

Loki frowned. "You know each other?" 

Before you managed to answer him, Wong approached you with anger loud in his every step. And snapped his fingers. 

Your stomach jumped high into your throat as the ground rolled under your feet without a warning. Loki's didn't feel much better, but he overcame the wave of nausea quickly—he knew what happened. It was a simple transportation spell he had used thousands of times. 

It didn't take you far—only to a small park, far from prying eyes. Some children were busy building a rather disfigured snowman at the far end of it, behind a line of trees, their naked branches heavy with snow. No one else seemed to occupy the place. 

Wong uncovered his face. You were right—he was pissed. 

"What is wrong with you, people? And I mean both of you. You were supposed to be the responsible one!" he jabbed you with a finger. "Don't you think he's a little too recognizable to be wandering around like that?" 

"He's got my scarf on!" 

Wong didn't bother with a response. Loki, despite his personal feelings towards the monk, couldn't blame him. 

Wong sighed, giving up trying to reason with either of you. He was aware of the god's current situation, because a big part of Sanctum Santorum's job was monitoring any threats to the realms and interdimensional peace—and Loki was very high on that list. 

On the other hand, despite the ice-cold looks he was being cast by said threat, Wong had to admit no major disaster happened yet—which was surprisingly nice (having the realm's continued peace in mind) but not ideal in Wong's personal interest (and the bet he lost to the Sorcerer Supreme). 

"I have a feeling nothing I say will make you go back to the Tower?" he asked. 

"Nope," you admitted. Loki only huffed with indifference, raising his chin high despite the thick scarf. 

Wong nodded to himself, as if he (rightly so) didn't anticipate any other answer. "Alright, then I'll at least cast a small glamor spell onto him, so you don't—" 

"Absolutely not!" 

The mere thought of the barbaric, bland magic of this realm being thrown upon him, boiled Loki's blood. If only he could reach out to his own magic, he'd show this pathetic excuse of a sorcerer what it really meant to wield such force… 

You nudged him in the ribs, hard. "He's kinda right, you know? You said it yourself—you're too recognizable." 

Loki was at a loss for words, and Wong used that moment to cast the glamor with a quick invocation and trained move of his hands. It tickled, like a wet, slippery mist blown into Loki's face. He snapped his attention back to the sorcerer, baring his teeth, but Wong was already departing. 

"It won't work on anyone who already knows you, but it should do fine against strangers. You two better not mess anything up," he said and disappeared into a portal before Loki could grab him by the throat. His hand closed on air where the sorcerer stood only seconds ago. 

"I hate this world," he growled out, clenching his fist. 

You patted his back soothingly. "I know, it's not the best sequence of events before a proper breakfast, but how about we finally go grab some? The place isn’t far." 

Loki brushed his face with a hand, the wet feeling not gone, but there was nothing he could do about it without his magic. He once again looked at the damned bracelet fixed around his wrist with pure, unfiltered hatred. 

[todokori-kun]

Thor is that embarrassing big brother who always ruins your moments. Even when he’s not there. Everybody’s like ‘oh it’s thor’s evil little brother’ lol

Yeah, for some reason I can’t find any pictures of Loki from the side/back either (I mean ones showing his whole body)…not that I’d really be able to tell even if I did find one, but still. It’s like the internet somehow knows that the fangirls would go crazy over it and is hiding it on purpose.

A lot of people complained about Bruce/Nat coming completely out of the blue and I guess it kinda did, but I still like it :) other than Pepper/Tony, it seems like the only romantic couple Marvel got right, because Marvel is notorious for messing up the romance.

SPOILER

They made Steve hook up with Peggy’s NIECE in Civil War

Darcy and Sif are best girls in Thor 2. Frigga is queen. Like you said, I feel like Jane is quite flat and don’t actually 'like’ her, but I have a small soft spot for her for two reasons: because I feel like she could have been a cool, unique character if they’d given her a chance, and because NATALIE PORTMAN. I haven’t really watched any of her movies but she's a great actress.

And yes, Frigga dies in Thor 2.

Loki completely breaks down.

SPOILER

since the last thing he said to her was 'You’re not my mother’

Oh, I see ^^;; whoops. And YES. MCU actually fits really well with Hamilton…and the thought of Loki singing 'My mother was a genius’ now that Frigga is dead ;-; my heart

Wait a sec, though. Who’s Theodosia?

And I know you said you don’t ship anything yet, but there’s this really great (but really long) series on ao3 called 'Remember This Cold’ for Steve/Loki…I recommend that even if you don’t ship it, because it features one of the most realistic redemption arcs for Loki. It’s beautiful to watch (read?) as he steadily learns to accept Steve’s help as the genuine caring it is instead of an attempt to manipulate him.

Awww that sounds adorable <3 let them be happy for once (I seem to say that a lot nowadays haha)

Well, Steve would look adorable. I’d still look like a drunk octopus.

(But is Luna the type who would silently coo over the pictures/videos she secretly took of the OTP, or is she the type who would call Tony and Natasha over like 'LOOK AT THESE DORKS’. I’d die of embarrassment if it’s the latter)

He charmed you with his glowstick of destiny. That’s how he became your problematic fave.

*ugly crying* that is possibly one of the nicest things anybody outside of my family has ever said to me in my life <3 *hugs*

We all have our insecurities, but trust me, Queen Luna, you’re awesome. You’re great to talk to, your writing is lovely, you make the best fluffy headcanons, and you’re also seriously smart and dedicated to everything you do! :D

PAIN!

You made me a, you made me a believer, believer

Pain!

You break me down, you built me up, believer, believer

Pain!

I let the bullets fly, oh let them rain

My life, my love, my drive, it came from

Pain!

You made me a, you made me a believer, believer

You learned archery? That’s so cool! I wanted to learn when I was younger but…I don’t really even remember why I didn't get to XD I do know that protecting your arm is important though.

Btw, I think you forgot to answer my question about character theme songs/playlists(?) ^^;; anyway, is it ok to send some?

I would be salty as well if everyone only knew me by my older sister. And if they always compared me to her. So I understand Loki’s salt about that, wholeheartedly.

After another fruitless search, I caved and opened incognito mode, typing ‘loki’s butt’. AND I STILL GOT NOTHING. I did get Steve’s behind, tho. It’s a good behind ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

The problem with Loki is that his cape covers the glorious butt he’s been burdened with. Maybe in some other sequel? Like Ragnarok? I mean, problematic fave did appear (for 5 seconds at most), and you could still practically hear the panties dropping from all over the world. And don’t get me started on the comments on the gifs or the trailer itself XD

Since I watched Ultron (where they have a very close relationship) without watching the previous movies, I just assumed they had a close relationship established in one of them and rolled with it. Besides, ‘tis cute. She can calm down the ‘Other One’.

They what. Now that’s just messed up. Messed up bigtime. Didn’t Steve see his love in one of the movies, where she was old and gray and pretty much dead? Which part of him thought ‘kk, you’re the niece of my ex who’s now wrinkly, Imma sleep with you’. That’s just overstepping the line.

Isn’t Jane the reason all the shit in Thor 2 happens? like, she touches the aether and shit ensues (i hate the spoiler minefield that is tumblr) I just feel like she should’ve gotten more personality traits other than ‘likes astronomy’ and ‘likes thor’. That’s all I understood about her from the first movie.

Well, shit. The only person who genuinely cared for Loki dies. And his last words to her.... He’s becoming a bit of a too problematic fave.

Theodosia the wife or Theodosia the kid? His spear? Idk, is there anyone he actually cares for other than himself??

I’ll try to read it once holidays start ^^ I really want to see the Loki redemption arcs! And the new potential rarepair is calling my name...

Loki does deserve happiness. He’s done a lot (A LOT) of shit, but it is the consequence of his upbringing. Now, I’m not defending him, or saying he should’ve done what he did, I’m just saying that it might not entirely be his fault. Ok, now imagine this: Loki with glasses (i like guys with glasses shhhhh)

Depending on my relationship with the person, I can be both types ;) But if I know it embarrasses you, I’ll keep it to myself (most of the time :P) However, if it’s a really cutesy scene, I’d just forward it to you with a caption like <(￣︶￣)>

That must be it! The stupid spear’s the reason for all of this. I’ll hold it responsible and break it the next time I see it. How much damage do you think that would do to Loki’s powers and/or pride? It’d probably damage his pride more than anything.

Also, I am nOT CRYING, NOT AT ALL TT_TT

Yep, I did. I read about it in a book and was like ‘OK THIS IS MY NEW HOBBY, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!’. I still have my bow, I just don’t use it. My good, trusty compound. oh god i’ll always remember the bruises I got from when I forgot to put the elbow guard/put it on the wrong way. It seriously hurts like a bitch if the bowstring slaps you.

I’m always open to anything you want to submit ^^ That includes the songs/playlists. In fact, I’d be grateful to have something new to listen to.

Last things last By the grace of the fire and the flames You're the face of the future, the blood in my veins, oh-ooh The blood in my veins, oh-ooh But they never did, ever lived, ebbing and flowing Inhibited, limited 'Til it broke open and rained down It rained down, like...

[valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn]

Wow I couldn't disagree more with you on this and I believe the main problem is that at one point in your text you say "his self-esteem is gone" and you think that's a good thing because it brings change.

There's a huge difference between letting go of your pride and letting go of your self-esteem.

There's a part of Mobius' session with Loki that I like. I like that Mobius is ruthless, he shows footage of the NYC invasion and Loki can't even bring himself to look at the screen because it's hard for him, which is exactly the reason it was there - he has to confront what he's done and what his actions have caused. No empathy, no nothing. What he did was awful, he gets called out on it. Cool by me.

The problem comes when Mobius tells him he led the dark elves to Frigga, then stops the footage so that the image of her, lying on the floor dead, is right there in front of Loki. First, because it's a lie (he didn't lead anyone to her, he lead Kursed to the shield room). And second for these two things:

- Loki: "I'll kill you" - Mobius: "What, like you did your mother?",

- "You weren't born to be king, Loki, you were born to cause pain and suffering and death. That's how it is, that's how it was, that how it'll be. All so that others can achieve the best version of themselves"

Those two lines are not therapy. Those two lines don't lead to redemption. The first line is a lie, the second is emotional abuse. Now, if you think the only way you can get a fictional character who has done villainous things in the past to look inwards and see why they behaved that way is by abusing them then... well, we're on different wavelengths.

Mobius was getting answers out of Loki during the first part of the session. Had he continued like that I wouldn't have minded it. But the second part is unjustifiable.

You claim throughout the show Loki changes and finds good coping mechanisms. The main problem with this is you link losing your self-esteem, admitting blame for everything (not only your actions but others' as well), ignoring the trauma and the reasons behind your actions and going straight into self-hate mode, to redemption.

You think having Loki kneeling and calling himself a narcissist and a bad person and weak and a villain is a good thing and means he has changed... but that's not true. That's not how therapy works, that's not how someone overcomes their trauma and insecurities and learns to move forward with their lives to become something better. This is how a traumatized person behaves: those around him belittle him or lie to him (or beat him), he kneels down and calls himself the worst things he can come up with - there's nothing learned, his ego and pride are gone, yes... so is his self-esteem.

And someone who doesn't love themselves can never be redeemed.

You think the only way a character can accept responsibility and accountability for their actions is by being abused by the supposedly 'good guys'? And the TVA are the right people to do this? People who kidnap little girls, prune people and entire realities, lie to their own workers and mess with their minds to turn them into slaves... have the moral ground in the show? Holy shit.

This isn't about responsibility and accountability and I swear so many people have no idea how to handle morally grey characters. This is about a character who was a villain in the past, who would need to be called out on his shit, who would need to face his actions and why not, apologize for them... and would also need to have his own issues addressed in a show that's supposedly about him.

You know what a real redemption arc does? Explain. Not justify no, explain. Touch on those issues and explain them, tell me why he did what he did, tell me why he felt the need to do it, why he thought it was right for him to do it, why he didn't stop as he was doing it... I don't want a damn justification for NYC, I want his past to be addressed, his insecurities to be talked about (instead of mocked), his past to be brought back, I want the audience to understand Loki without having to justify him.

What I don't want is episode after episode of Loki kneeling and calling himself all the bad words he can come up with then read fans call that change and improvement.

This post is going to be fandom-critical and Loki series-appreciative, so get out and block/unfollow/whatever while you can if that's not your cup of tea.

There is a trend in many fandoms of characters who are in opposition to the hero (villains, antiheroes etc) that is critical of the "redemption through death" scenario. The latest that comes to mind is Star Wars, but there are countless examples. The typical in-story narrative is that the villain had committed too many crimes and there is no place for him in the new world where the heroes won, so he's killed off - usually not by heroes but by tragic circumstances that allow him some positive light before the end (Loki in Thor2, Ben Solo in SW). Fans of the character argue that a fully realised, slow redemption would be an awesome storyline, and that it'd be both interesting and refreshing to look at the life post wrongdoing.

So far, no mainstream media has ever done a fully realised, psychologically grounded redemption storyline. Hollywood go-to idea to rehabilitate the villain is to make the villain useful to the heroes and ultimately just "forget" about the initial transgression. The initial bad deed is never looked back on, addressed or analysed except maybe as a funny oneliner. Because addressing shit is hard... And also because, as Loki series has shown us, the fandom doesn't really want to see the true psychologically grounded redemption storyline.

For the Loki series is exactly this: the first time a character must face uncomfortable truths about themselves, to better themselves. This is a process that isn't nice. It's a beatdown after a beatdown. It's humiliating, soul-destroying, there is much kneeling and grovelling and unflattering names. The character isn't shown as pretty and composed, he isn't allowed to wear nice clothes that give him a feeling of power. He feels useless, powerless and messes up a lot, for his self esteem is gone. He doesn't strut around showing off magic feats and yes, almost everyone around him is shown in better light. Because that's what a true redemption storyline is like. It's a deconstruction of the ego. Eventually, it will lead to a stronger and better sense of self, but first we must crawl on the floor. And the fans, who usually overidentify with the character and his background, just cannot take seeing him, and by extension themselves, in that light.

So what does the fandom do?

1) Insist that Loki does not need a redemption storyline. Because he was tortured by Thanos (this is fanon), because he was influenced by scepter (this is still mostly fanon but has a bit more substance), because he was emotionally abused by Odin (this is almost canon). Now before you crucify me - these are my favourite fanons, my go-to fanfiction, I adore them all. But. There is absolutely nothing incorrect or malicious with the Loki series going "You know what? Loki still carved out that eyeball, and I am not going to sit here and "address" the fact that Odin emotionally neglected him, because that's already been shown and is in the past. I am going to postulate that Loki, deep in his core, is ashamed of himself for his deeds, and that bringing up Odin isn't going to solve that shame, and explore how Loki can move forward from there. The story isn't not going to be about Odin or Thanos, who are both gone and dead, it's going to be about Loki -who is the one who gets to live with the consequences."

2) Insist that the series hates Loki and was written specifically to humiliate him. This ties back to my thesis that the fandom simply does not want to see what a true psychological work of a redemption storyline looks like, for the ego beatdown is the essential part of it. This is how the story of Ben Solo would have had to look like, had he survived Star Wars. This is how Thor 2 would have looked like, had we been following Loki and not Thor: Loki being chained by the same soldiers he commanded, being stripped of his armour, being led down the rainbow bridge and into the palace. In that movie, it would have been worse because he had personal history with all these people. In the series he gets TVA's indifferent approach, which should incidentally be easier to swallow.

3) Insist that Loki is not the protagonist of his own series. Apart from this not making an ounce of sense, this reading comes from the idea that only physical deeds are valid storytelling material. Sylvie is stronger than Loki, hence she's the protagonist. Mobius is in the position of power, hence he is more important than Loki. All the while Loki is out there, doing enormous self-work, changing by the hour and showcasing more stable coping techniques. But he's not glamorous while doing it and he's kneeling a lot, so it cannot be that the writers actually like him and wish him to do well in the long run.

4) Insist that the new Loki is OOC and give him a plain, insulting new nickname to differentiate him from the beloved and cool old Loki. The one who liberated eyeballs while clad in impeccable clothes because he was terrified of Thanos. Or the one whose non-existent coping mechanisms almost made him kill his own beloved brother in despair. The one who had plans upon plans and was always so ready for betrayal that he had no friends on his own. The one who would surely glamour awesome clothes onto himself to avoid signalling any weakness. The one who was incredibly high strung and could never allow any weakness. You guys want that Loki back? Ok, that's fair. That guy was deeply damaged, and very interesting to watch. But then, a story that takes these aspects from him (and make no mistake, all of them are maladaptive and trauma induced - all -of - them) isn't hating on Loki, or making him dumb, or exists to hurt you personally. It allows him to overcome his internal hurdles, lower his defences and eventually arrive to a better place.

So here I rest my thesis: actual well written redemption stories, of which Loki is the frigging first (and how groundbreaking is that) aren't really wanted by the fandom. Most fans would rather whitewash or cocoon themselves in the trauma aspect, leaving the actual responsibility and consequences out of it. Which is fine as a comping mechanism, fiction is escapism after all, you're all perfectly valid... But there should at least be enough self-awareness to differentiate between a good story that's uncomfortable/too heavy for you and a bad story with evil writers who either have no idea about Loki or specifically want to punish his fans.

The Loki series isn't the latter. It might not be the fantasy escapism most would have preferred, but it has a very specific and respectable goal and it's going about it in a grounded way which is - actually - fully respecting of Loki as a person. I swear that the series sees him as more capable of doing the work he needs to do than his own fans.

[sofiadragon]

Comparing Wanda and Loki is more than fair. Two gray characters, neither pure evil nor pure good. They hurt people because they were hurt. They know it was wrong, but there was nobody there for them when they were breaking down, and if/when they do reach out they don't get the support they need to stop spiraling.

Look at this man getting the last thing he needs as a distraction gift:

Oh, yeah, he absolutely wants this. He looks back at his mom, who just explained how he is wrong for being so upset, like she's the one who's going loony tunes. Thing is, she's not quite wrong yet. She expects that trusting Loki with this as would be natural for a born son will prove that she loves him and it might have if she didn't make the same mistake about Heimdal, Sif, and the Warriors Three that Thor did. Instantaneous mutiny and borderline sedition, and if I hear anyone say that their attitude was based on "Hey man, is Loki OK? He seems out of it" or similar "they were Loki's good friends too" arguments they can be loaded into the catapult. Keep that gaslighting away from me. They think this is him showing his true colors because they never liked him and put up with him for Thor's sake.

Wanda is much the same, but people don't try to twist what happened to her (well, there are always some, but speaking in generalities.) The person who she turned to is not coded as a good guy in the end (though he is presented as a Nick Fury stand in at the beginning.)

She's also given the last thing she could possibly need, and thereafter spirals into a full mental break. To the people of the town she is as much a villain as Loki is to that town in New Mexico. The big contrast comes between Vision and Frigga - the people giving them compassion and support.

While Frigga gives a list of excuses about why her husband made a choice she says she disagreed with, she makes it a lot about her. [Much of this is in a deleted scene that was acknowledged as canon after the fact, he gets less support in the film.] She then pivots Loki away from her, aiming him at the unconscious Odin and saying that "You can talk to him, he can see and hear us even now." What about her? She's right there and not asleep. Why can't he vent to her and Odin can just hear the whole thing? She deflects all involvement as if she has no agency and couldn't have just told Loki herself. She takes no responsibility for hurting him.

Vision supports and cares for Wanda - no, not in her decision to make the Hex, that wouldn't be helpful to her. He is compassionate and understanding. He accepts that she did this because she was in pain and desperate to stop her loneliness. He demands she stop lying to him, but doesn't scold her for having emotions or make her feel wrong for having them. Her emotions aren't the problem, what she did with them is.

Loki is never offered that. Not in Thor 2011, not in Dark World, and not in the TVA. He was made to be wrong, less than, and hated. Wanda's recap starts with her trauma, Loki's recap starts with his responce to a secondary trauma (the void if you don't know about Thanos, and Thanos' typical treatment of his underlings as described by his daughters if you do.)

I don't give a ding dong damn if the showrunners say that Loki watched his whole life, based on what I see on screen it is only select scenes from his life from NYC to his death. How many hours did the TVA stay on alert searching everywhere for Loki? No, that was a highlight reel selected by an interrogator to achieve a specific responce. That's what the show frames it as, that's what we see, that's how the characters in the show treat it. In that sense, it wouldn't make sense to go back to show Loki's reasons, but Loki should have brought them up. Perhaps not with Mobius, but when talking to his variants? He mentions it to Sylvie and gets dismissed because it isn't a trauma they share, and then it becomes a scene about her trauma because this may be a part of why her reality was pruned.

There is one character in the Loki Series that really could have stood in as a strong representation of Loki's trauma wothout having him spill his guts to someone he doesn't trust much, and who might have been used to reveal the sympathetic parts of his history to new viewers. The only hint of Loki's reasons is when we see a blue variant in a hologram, but how effective could Boastful Loki be as a Frost Giant? The blue skin is coded hard as an opressed minority between the Gardians of the Galaxy and Thor movies, so we aren't really losing minority representation (and, well, given context maybe even gaining something, since Asgardians aren't racist about shades of tan and brown.) If you believe his claims, he was a very successful variant too, so accepting his history and identity can be seen as part of how he succeeded - less self hate, more winning!

He's big and OG Loki was (supposedly) rejected by his birth parent(s) because he was too small. It fits really well and makes a token background character into one that represents a much larger part of OG Loki, where Classic Loki is his Patience and Power and Kid Loki is his Ambition and Pride. [Alligator Loki is Chaos and Agression, but also just a joke, which can also get deep. I'm going to stop before I write a second essay about the Loki variants because they are the best part of the series.] Making Boastful Loki black is certainly a choice since he's clearly meant to be some of Loki's worst qualities, but if he was Jotun he'd become symbolic of Loki's trauma and terrible coping mechanisms instead of just Arrogance and Betrayal. Then they leave that part of him behind to move on from this terrible place they are in. The poetry! That's great even as written, but giving him a line or two about how he was king of Jotunheim or something would be so much more meaningful to our main character.

Loki has to be a narcissist because that's a bad thing that be blamed on him. In real life no, it's not someone's fault for having a personality disorder and no ones bad for having one. But in fiction land yeah treat someone like dirt for being a narcissist.

Loki never turns blue and never talks about being a jotunn. He talks about being adopted he never talks about being a jotunn. There are no blue variants. Because you can't talk about it, you can't call attention to it without acknowledging that not all of Loki's problems are caused himself. When Odin took Loki and dyed his skin he took away his chance to every truly be himself.

We should have known right in ep1 where Mobius starts the tape on the NYC invasion that the series was never going to be about Loki. Not a single thing about his past mattered (because his past explains him and justifies about 85% of the things he has done), they only wanted the invasion so they could retcon his character.

Like you say, if they mention Jotunheim they need to talk about Odin taking him, lying to him, him finding out on his own, etc. And if they talk about his feelings and if they allow him the chance to express himself the audience would side with him immediately - and then, how do you sell your favourite character treating him like crap? You can't.

I keep comparing ep1 to what they did with Wanda in her own show when Agatha took her down memory lane and they started off her story with the murder of her parents. If she had been given the Loki treatment they would have started off at Hydra, they wouldn't have allowed her to explain herself and they would have called her a supremacist or a fascist. Even in Hawkeye we're reminded of his pain and suffering at losing his family so they can explain why he became the Ronin. But in the Loki series we didn't get that did we? Nah, he got called a narcissist, not a single mention of Jotunheim and all the compassion was given to a variant who found immense enjoyment in hurting everyone around her.

[rebellionandforbiddenfruits]

I think part of the issue is that Thor isn't usually given the space to show his intelligence. I know his whole character's things is supposed to be a big fist, essentially. But both of them were raised by Frigga who has shown a lot of investment in their education. Plus, Thor can hold a conversation with Jane about physics without just vaguely stumbling through. So, while I agree Loki has a more realistic approach to politics, I don't think Thor (in his current incarnation, we don't have time to unpack the past) is inherently unintelligent. It's a matter of how they approach a situation.

Loki will take action in a more roundabout way because he is keenly aware of the inner workings of most situations he's in. He can see the detail that allows him to take more subtle approaches to achieve his ends. He has the capacity to make more long term goals, he's patient. I think of it kind of in the same sense as bending. Loki is more of an earth or water bender who has learned to master Neutral Jing. His tactics are avoidance of conflict, using other's energies against them, and finding ways to achieve ends with the least amount of damage. It's why there's such an emphasis on him always having a plan. He's precise. The main issue with his plans is that he, like when someone is lighting bending, will disconnect emotionally when he commits certain acts out of necessity. The more jaded and isolated he becomes, the more he'll disconnect. He's not connecting with anyone, therefore he's trapped in his own head. I'm convinced that's why he doesn't see Thor and Rocket pass him by in the endgame movies. Because the only other option is that he knows and is keeping his mouth shut. And it's not like Thor and Rocket were being particularly sneaky. But nothing has suggested he did, so I lean more towards the other option.

Thor is more fire and earth. He's equally resilient, persistent, enduring, yest also, hot headed and impatient. But he's passionate about what he does and who he cares about. He may not have the strategy or the subtlety, but he is capable of making decisions for his community that don't feed his ego. If Loki is the brains, Thor is the heart (not to say Loki doesn't have a heart, that's ridiculous. I'm strictly referring to how they've shown themselves to handle obstacles. There's a reason why Thor isn't in Civil War. He'd have been able to mediate Tony and Steve.). Because Thor has a developed a sense of emotional intelligence in comparison to the first Thor. He's still learning, but between the two of them, that's been his role. It's also why Frigga mentions to Loki that he can see everyone clearly but himself.

He inverts into himself, but he's never outside of his head enough to be able to take a deeper look at the heart. Loki jumps into problem solving as a way of avoiding his emotions. He can emotionally disconnect and do something in which he's confident. It's part of his reasoning for claiming he's not sentimental. It's not just to hide weakness, but failing to see the value of his own emotions. It's very clear that all three of them, initially, don't have the best experience in managing their emotional reactions. And Odin never manages it. Just because he's not swinging a sword around doesn't mean he's not perpetuating violence in other forms. And THAT is one of his biggest problems. He fails to see the violence he perpetuates because his gradient for violence is so heavily skewed. And, like Steve (and for a little while, Tony), Odin believes his greatness immunizes him from guilt. He's "above the law." If Marvel Loki is all about working outside of the law due to discrimination, tyrannical systems, etc., then Marvel Odin is representative of those families with "old money" because they live outside of the law to feed their wealth and exploit their own people. I can't say that we really know the full extent of the politics, but that's the general idea I get. Because when Thor gets mad that Loki sat on his laurels and didn't do anything, we don't really know if he knows. And the only people who actually shows any sign of violence to Asgard are Surtur and Hela. No one else. Which suggests that Asgard isn't actually at risk as much as Odin seemed to believe. He's instilled that in Thor very heavily. But if Loki was unaware then he can't be at fault. He's been busy with the day to day, etc. And how much of that work was probably riddled with meetings that could have been emails. So, thus far, Thor's anger is more than a bit unfounded. His judgment is clouded by his anger and Loki's by his fear. This entire interaction is a failure of communication. Literally all of the dysfunction in this family would be moot if they all just participated in healthy, honest communication and active listening. Literally. Don't get me started on Hela. Shorthand, she's Azula minus the sibling rivalry.

Back to Thor.

One of Thor's greatest advantages and assets his his ability to connect with others and attempt to form healthy environments with his loved ones. His time on earth managed to help him find his center, so to speak. Also, if fire is the symbol of power (plus lightning), it makes sense it would apply to Thor. Plus, he's Aesir. Aesir are gods of martial values and protectors. They're basically soldiers. They're skill set isn't in the day to day politics. Loki would be a Vanir, in the sense of his general role. They tended to what would be the "wifely" duties of the home (which is why I'm convinced that Loki was a household deity. There's some debate about him.) Magic, fertility, mathematics (calculating). Think of it like hard skills vs soft skills.

Aesir = hard skills (Thor)

Vanir= soft skills (Loki)

Yet, unlike Odin, Thor recognizes that he's not the type of person that can be a politician. He knows how to recognize his weaknesses and respect them. Odin won't. And honestly, when Thor has his nightmares about Asgard, I see a little bit of Dean Winchester in him, when Dean is talking about hunting. "I wish I could do something else. My dad got me doing this so young, I don't know how else to live." Odin started him early in subjugating the communities he conquered. "Keeping the peace." But when Loki is in charge, he's granted freedoms to people. Even the very staff of the palace seem more relaxed around him than they ever did with Odin. They all seemed to be very high-alert, in comparison. And with all of the earth shit lying around, trade has clearly been more open than it used to be. Asgard isn't as exclusionist as it was with Odin in charge. I think of him as either Uther from Merlin or the father rabbit in The Tale of the Bunny Picnic. Outwardly, he's similar to Uther in a million ways. Hypocritical, bigoted, and violent in one form or another. Inwardly, he's a frightened rabbit having an anxiety attack comparable to a Vietnam veteran.

Yet, no matter how much Odin insists he's a peaceful king now, everything about him and how his sons handle the responsibilities of caring for the community indicate that he's simply moved to a new form of violence. Which also translates to how he raises his sons. Sure, he may never have raised a hand to Loki, but telling a person that his destiny was to die (repeatedly, I might add) is a very clear form of violence. He can't even enter into a conversation about something that upsets him because the conversation alone is enough to set him in survival mode. Or he passes out. He's a war veteran with no mental health care, so it's really not a surprise he's homeless in the new film set in the 80s.

All of the above = Thor and Loki are both equally intelligent, but they're intelligence exists in different forms. Thor is more emotional intelligence and Loki is more intellectual intelligence. It's why they're such a great team. They can compliment and balance each other out. Their approaches are very different, yet also can be equally similar. It's like with food. You have two chickens. They have the same source, but they're both prepared so very differently that you would never consider them the same dish. Thor and Loki's initial approaches to a problem solving is the marinade they're flavored with. Same with variants, but now we're talking about having a set of dishes that are similar enough to show a theme, but not enough to consider them all the exactly same dish.

Loki's intelligence is so underrated!

And he has knowledge of employing forces in combats and methods for achieving a goal in political world!

He knows tactics!

He would be way better King than Thor! We all know Thor is that big attractive sibling with no brain to use.

[imnotrevealingmyname]

By the Norns, I'm tearing up now. I'm so fucking proud of my fellow Loki stans. THIS SCREENSHOT, PEOPLE. Anti-Loki people out there, LOOK AT THIS.

And seriously, @snakebitcat must be woefully retarded to spout such baseless arguments. You wrong in the upper storey, mate? Because what you're saying not only makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but it's also VERY insulting. And I'm not talking about just fans of Loki. I'm talking about people who have PTSD or any sort of identity crises and anxiety disorders, really. Have you ever had your entire perception of who you are smashed into smithereens? Because that fucks with people's minds, dude. Thor threw a tantrum of cosmic proportions because Mr Narcissistic Daddy couldn't tolerate being called narcissistic, and took his favourite toy away. So mature, huh? ON THE OTHER HAND, Loki's entire sense of identity was snatched away from him ruthlessly, and the throne was thrust into his hands, like @nikkoliferous said. (FYI, he didn't usurp the throne, he didn't take advantage of the situation. If you've ever cared enough to watch the deleted scenes, you'll know that Frigga forced him to take over. And either way, in the absence of the king and the crown prince, it is obvious that he'll become the king. Why am I explaining this? Because I've seen people criticize him for taking advantage of Odin's stress-induced hibernation by becoming the king. Get a life, folks.) As I was saying, Loki was stressed, honey, he was forced to bear the burden of nine planets he never expected to rule over because his brother fucked up. (And before anyone can say this, Loki did NOT know that Odin would banish Thor, he did NOT know that he would become the king, because contrary to popular belief, he cannot see the future. So he'd never thought that he'd become king, either.) On the other hand, all Thor had to stress about was homesickness and the knowledge that the throne had slipped through his fingers and landed in the hands of the brother he never cared about. The brother whom he had called a cow when Loki tried to compliment him. (Deleted scenes, people.) How can you even compare them? Seriously? I'm seriously grossed out by these stupid arguments. Is this really something to debate over?

And ffs, please don't tell me I hate Thor. I don't hate Thor (except Ragnarök Thor) and I never will. It's not my problem if you can't distinguish between destroying a planet after going through genuine trauma and a childish tantrum over a ruined party.

*mic drop*

I hate this goddamn fandom so fucking much sometimes.

[lokigodofaces]

And that's alright!

I personally like Endgame, but I don't worship it. I like the idea, I just think the presentation could've been better. I love time travel, and Harry Potter and the Cursed Child has given me very low standards for time travel, so I'm fine with the way it was executed. The moments with Loki are absolutely amazing. He immediately makes fun of Steve, waves at Hulk, his facial expressions are fantastic when "SHIELD" (all involved were Hydra) said they were taking him, when Thor said Odin would judge him, when Tony had a heart attack, when the case with the Tesseract went skidding across the floor, and when he realized he could steal the Tesseract. It was a welcome surprise to see Frigga again. I loved watching Nebula bond with Tony and Rhodey, and that we see that she did get to bond with Rocket in those five years. Speaking about the time skip, my problem is that it means Endgame is in 2023. I've always loved how marvel referenced pop culture, but we can't do that now. Maybe Ned should've been ranting about the new Star Wars content. Maybe Fortnite will be dead in a year and Thor shouldn't have played it. The Vormir scene was so emotional, and, don't @ me with hate here, but I think it displayed Natasha well. She's been trying to atone for her crimes pre-Iron Man 2 this entire time, and, come to think of it, she probably was trying to atone for Civil War too. I think that after saving the world once she was good, but, and I can say this from experience, lots of people are not okay with where they're at and want to get better, but in doing so don't see that they have gotten so much better already. And Clint's reaction, Hades, I'm never getting over it. So many Irondad moments! The portals scene was amazing! And Steve is worthy! And Scott, who is still one of the most underrated characters, is the one who came up with the Time Heist. Without him, the Blip never would have happened (and somehow no one cares about him still).

Those are my favorite things. But there still are problems. Steve's ending could have been better if they added to it. Since he doesn't affect the OG universe, but makes a new one, I think it should have been said that he saved Bucky and destroyed Hydra in the late '40's. Thor should not have been the comedy relief he was. We still don't know what the crap was going on with Bruce and Hulk in Infinity War, and I didn't like the blend of the two that much. I think the Soul World should've been used. Not to hate on Tony, but I think Gamora and Nebula should've killed Thanos. More mourning for Loki, Natasha, and Tony should've happened. I'm not too sure about the Howard Stark scenes.

But you totally don't have to like Endgame. It's not my favorite, since it's not The Winter Soldier. And Infinity War was much better (I can't keep a straight face thinking about "Why is Gamora?" or "Kick names, take a*s, Tom Holland and RDJ improvised the end, Stephen was amazing, Wakanda was awesome, so much Scarletvision, Bruce didn't have to be the Hulk to fight aliens, and Thor wasn't just comic relief). I do think Infinity War is more deserving of #1 at the box office than Endgame, but either works.

The point is, you don't have to conform with the rest of society. You can be your own voice. You don't have to love and worship Endgame. And don't let anyone tell you otherwise

Am I the only one who dislikes Endgame?

I didn’t really like endgame as much as most people did it wasn’t as funny, or sarcastic as infinity war it was more like watching a weird FanFiction unfold. Loki hadn’t gotten the justice he deserved nor did many of the other heroes. It killed the heart and soul of the MCU. Not only that but Steve completely forgot about Bucky after three movies fighting for him and then at Endgame he was like who’s Bucky? Bucky who? I didn’t like the five year timeskip thing that hurt me right in the emotions Of course there were parts I like for example my queen Nebula got her justice and revenge Thor got closure and overcame his depression as well as proved that everyone is worthy, Sam becoming the new captain America you go king, who could forget America’s Ass Antman and Clint just existing. I just liked infinity war much more I guess. Don’t @ me on this.

[pretty-sweet-plums]

what she says: I'm fine

what she really means: What was loki doing off screen for so long after Hulk attacked Thanos? Why was Loki suddenly so confident to take Thanos on once he reappeared? Why the fuck would THAT be his plan he is not unintelligent by any stretch. Why did he suddenly reclaim his Odinson surname? Why did his arm & knife turn icy when he went for Thanos, no one else just froze helplessly when they fought him? Why would he not transform into his Jotun form when dying/dissolve like Odin & frigga did? Why WOULDN'T he use an illusion???OR LITERALLY ANY OF HIS POWERS????? Are we rEALLY TO BELIEB that a literal GOD is out here gettin bodied like a simple PLEB when it took more effort for Thanos to even attempt to overpower literally. every. one. else. AND thanos was at his weakest bc he only had one fucking stone so far like fr yall I am NOT being PLAYED like this don't @ me. HE SAID "THE SUN WILL SHINE ON US AGAIN." HE SAID "UNDYING FIDELITY." HE REALLY EMPHASIZED "GOD OF MISCHIEF." "You will never be a god" was just such an oddly specific thing to say? HIS WORDS ALWAYS MEAN SOMETHING. Is no one else talking about how identical the scene was to the second time he "died." Where actually did the bodies go bc I need receipts. Where is Valkyrie? Where is Grandmaster he is more powerful than anyone no????? What was the significance of the "gotta have a people to conquer" or whatever with Grandmaster in Ragnarok's second post credit scene?? Why was Sakkar SO AGGRESSIVELY INCORPORATED in Ragnarok if not to play any role later? Grandmaster implied time worked differently on Sakkar in Ragnarok & Loki had been there for weeks when Thor got there despite the fact that they both JUST GOT SENT THERE yet this wasn't addressed any further. With the amount of gaps of time Loki has spent separate from thor in other time planes are we really just gonna ignore the likelihood that he has known a lot more than everyone else about what's going on & possibly future events plus there is SO MUCH BACKSTORY with him & Thanos that has been left just under the surface like are we really to believe it's gonna be left that way??? HELLO HE'S NOT JUST BEEN DICKING AROUND WE KNOW BY NOW EVERYTHING HE DOES IS PRECISE THERE IS A REASON FOR EVERY MANIPULATION !WHAT!IS!IT!!! Did Hela actually die at the end of Ragnarok bc again RECEIPTS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN Why did baby gamora show up to Thanos after the snap? Why didn't thanos just use the gauntlet to fucking alter reality in a way that would correct the overpopulation problem yknow like MORE RESOURCES???LIKE U CAN LITERALLY DO ANYTHING WITH ALL THAT POWER SO U CHOOSE WHAT IS AT THE VERY LEAST THE MOST STRENUOUS WAY FOR YOU YOURSELF??? Why is Hulk on the struggle bus? "Half my people"???? Where is the other half then??????I'm TELLING YOU LOKI LEFT DURING THAT TIME OFF SCREEN & HE KNEW THOR WOULD BE MAD ENOUGH TO MAKE IT OUT AFTER SEEING HIM "DIE" & I THINK IT HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH SAKKAR & HE KNEW IT WOULD THE WHOLE TIME THAT'S WHY HE WAS SO STRATEGIC THERE. If Thanos has been in Tony's head showing him the future for years, that implies Thanos knew the future so why did he ever bother possessing loki to try to fuck up earth in the first place unless to play character-arc god? And he was told he would need to "court death" to succeed earlier after avengers, now did that mean Hela, did he send Hela, did he intentionally fuck with the fam dynamic as far back as Loki to make asgard unstable enough to take down with Hela, how far back does this gO?? Why did no one further address Strange's timehop into the future, esp the "one way" they would win? Why wouldn't Tony ask what that way was?????? Why was Strange so adamant that he would prioritize the stone over their lives if it came to it to save the universe then so easily pivot after his timehop & hand it over for Tony's life??? WHAT IS "THE ONLY WAY"????????? Why are there flashbacks being filmed for 4? Why is older Tony in them with flashback characters all with matching wrist things? Why is Loki's double necessary in the scene with the mask thing after Thor had captured him? How much new action will be ensuing that they couldn't just manipulate old scenes? And is Tony's fossil phone Steve gave him gonna end up being his way of communicating when he time travels to when it's the only usable fucking phone bc I bet it is.