#toa hermes

[aeithalian]

Hermes: the ultimate middle child

And now for the other promised meta!

There was a great discussion on the TOA discord earlier that I got the chance to read once it was over that was basically exactly what I wanted to talk about - Hermes as a character and how he is very subtly contrasted with Apollo in multiple ways.

First, for a curiosity I've had ever since I finished TON. We learn several very interesting things about Hermes in the scene when Apollo returns to the Council:

He initiated the bets on Apollo's success (and then has the nerve to say he was worried about Apollo)

He bet against Apollo (and it was enough money to make him look visibly upset by the loss)

He was not among the gods who looked happy at Zeus' proclamation of Apollo's success (Artemis makes sense for being happy, Dionysus makes sense for not, but Hermes is supposedly a close brother figure in the myths, so what gives?)

He immediately suggested that Apollo cause outright harm to some mortals with his renewed power, despite displaying no such malice in his previous appearances

There is an interesting play of contrast here when you look at Hermes' other notable scene in the Riordanverse - his conversation with Percy at the end of TLO.

Hermes is generally portrayed as much more serious right here. He's grieving Luke's death at this point, but Hermes knew that was coming, and this demeanor is consistent with his other appearances up until this point: put-together, down-to-business, pragmatic, and so on.

This doesn't seem like the same person we see at the end of TON: making jokes, placing bets, and the like. And THEN you go back to the myths and the Hermes there seems much more similar to the one we meet in TON.

My point being, there is a very obvious disconnect here between who Hermes used to be, who he is now, and who he is pretending to be.

And it has a lot to do with Zeus, and as a result, Apollo.

I think there's a twofold reason for this dichotomy: one, Hermes and Apollo have fundamentally contradictory views on both fate and change which have larger implications for Hermes' overall morality; and two, Hermes resents Apollo for being Zeus' favorite when Apollo probably doesn't deserve it (or Hermes believes he deserves it more).

Part I: Fate and Change

I'd like to go back to that conversation between Percy and Hermes at the end of The Last Olympian. The entire conversation is so strange to me: here's a sixteen-year-old who has never had a positive father figure in his life (save Paul, who is still a recent addition to his family at this point) trying to comfort a 4,000-year-old god that he's not a bad father:

"I thought you were a bad father," I admitted. "I thought you abandoned Luke because you knew his future and didn't do anything to stop it."

The main point of that conversation comes from Hermes' response to Percy's statement. To paraphrase, Hermes says 'I couldn't have saved Luke, it's against the laws and I can't defy the fates. I loved him, yes, but I couldn't save him. Those laws aren't going to change anytime soon, and neither are the gods.'

What we get from this conversation is this: Hermes was resigned to being unable to help Luke because he views the future as inevitable and the Fates as all-powerful (as does Zeus). He also doesn't believe that gods can change in the ways Percy wants them to; he scoffs at the idea that Percy's proposed changes will be permanent:

"No one can tamper with fate, Percy. Not even a god."

and then:

He laughed. "After three thousand years, you think gods can change their nature?"

To Hermes? Fate is inevitable and the gods can't change.

On the other hand, to Apollo? The future is behind any number of unlocked doors, and the only thing stopping the gods from changing are themselves:

[Regarding Frank burning his stick in TTT] "Frank went into that tunnel knowing he might die. He willingly sacrificed himself for a noble cause. In doing so, he broke free of his own fate. By burning his own tinder, he kind of... I don't know, started a new fire with it. He's in charge of his own destiny now."

Frank broke free of his fate, and the way Apollo talks about it indicates that he believes that such things are certainly possible.

And this:

[After regaining his godhood in TON] I could only try to be different from [Zeus]. Better. More... human.

Apollo intends to change the way he acts now that he is returned to Olympus, and has the support of everyone else who noted that he has already grown as a person: Jason, Sally, Will, Reyna, and so many more.

I feel like Hermes has always felt that he has the excuse of being a god when Percy asks him to do better for the sake of Luke's memory: "We gods have never been very good at keeping oaths." and "Eventually we'll become forgetful. We always do." and generally lots of other sentiments that give the impression that he believes that failure to do right by mortals is inevitable for gods. He's been so used to thinking that Luke was resigned to his fate from the very beginning, and that Hermes was never capable of changing it. Hermes didn't fail because he didn't try to succeed.

But Apollo ruins that for him when he returns - Apollo has not and will not let that same excuse stop him, and now Hermes is losing the only reason he had for not helping Luke. If Hermes is right, that gods can never help their mortal children and Luke was born to die at Kronos' hand, it was excusable for Hermes to turn his back on his own son. But if Apollo is right that gods can change and you can shape your own destiny, then it was Hermes and his inaction that killed Luke, not Kronos.

And we know that Apollo is right. Apollo did defy his fate. Apollo did change. And Hermes saw it all from the safety of his throne on Olympus.

Which means that Hermes was always wrong, and he knows it now. Hermes says that not helping Luke was the hardest thing he's ever done, because it would have amounted to nothing. Hermes thought he was completely incapable of helping Luke, but Apollo is living proof that he could have.

So now, Apollo is a daily reminder that Hermes failed Luke. Every day.

That would be enough to drive a wedge between any two people, much less two gods. And I don't think Apollo would ever truly realize that this is the case, so one day, Hermes is going to break, and Apollo will be left blindsided.

It only makes sense that Hermes might have some very heavy clown makeup on when we see him at the end of TON. I can't speak for him when we talk about the gambling, but I bet it's because Hermes, like he did with Luke, thought that Apollo would be resigned to his death the very moment Delphi-Python said that "Apollo will fall". And the fact that Apollo survived against all the odds (and seemingly against the Fates themselves) is just another smack to the face. I believe his behavior and comments in this scene are him lashing out in anger and frustration at the solid fact of the matter; that Hermes failed his own family, which is something he values to no end.

That's got to suck.

But now I think we have to closely examine why Hermes believes those things. Hermes has been brainwashed in a sense to believe that he can't defy fate and can't change. By who, then?

Do I really need to answer that? You have a brain. It's obvious, isn't it?

Part II: The fight to be the golden child

Let's rewind a bit, shall we?

The entire discussion had over on discord was started with talking about the potentials of Apollo's relationships with Ares and the rest of his siblings, then someone (I believe it was @fearlessinger, along with some very valid points made by uke) said this:

...but Ares, who was always the least favored of Zeus's children, the family's scapegoat, and who gave up on trying to get on Zeus's good side basically as soon as he was born and deemed a failure… he of all ppl would actually have no reason to resent Apollo for his success, nor for throwing away that success

To which I replied:

so i wonder then who has the reason to resent Apollo the most?... it’s probably a son, because they’re the ones who have to fight the most for Zeus’ approval ... maybe Hermes? because he’s never really done anything wrong and still doesn’t receive the title he deserves ...

To summarize: Apollo was the golden child, and used to be Zeus' favorite. We are certain he faces a lot of resentment for this fact (he admits to it himself), and Hermes definitely fits the bill.

Think about it.

Besides Luke, what has Hermes ever done that would put him out of the running for golden child? He's useful, talented, powerful enough to be on the Council, and despite being a god of liars and thieves, is work-driven enough that his father still trusts him. Even in the myths, he's clever in a very Zeus-y way.

Apollo, on the other hand, acts like a complete and utter fool pre-trials. He's vain, self-centered, and shallow. He's a chronic attention-seeker, and, in the myths tried to overthrow Zeus, and had angered him to the point of turning him mortal, not once, but twice. So what gives? Why is Apollo the favorite son, and not Hermes?

Honestly, I couldn't say, besides vague suggestions that it's because Zeus likes the idea of having the powerful and popular son as a favorite, rather than the less noticeable behind-the-scenes son. But who knows how Zeus and his favoritism work. Apollo doesn't, and I don't think Hermes does either.

I rather think Hermes is, as I said in the title, the ultimate middle child. Overlooked by his father in favor of his siblings, whether they be rebellious (Apollo), perfect in every way (Athena or Artemis) or just plain failures (Ares or Dionysus). In comparison, Hermes is invisible, having never done anything to make him stand out in the eyes of his father, nor having done anything that deserves a strict punishment. Nothing worthy of attention.

I've seen people wonder why Hermes never suffered the same consequences for Luke's actions in the way Apollo did for Octavian. But that's because Hermes never broke Zeus' fundamental law: do not interact with your mortal children.

The problems Octavian caused were supposedly because Apollo defied Zeus and created a forbidden connection with his legacy.

On the other hand, the problems Luke caused were because Hermes obeyed Zeus to the letter.

Why would Zeus punish Hermes for being obedient? And why wouldn't Zeus punish Apollo for breaking the 'ancient laws'?

Arguably, Hermes is Zeus' best behaved child (which is ironic, considering a few notable domains of his). Hermes is one of a trend that we see a lot with toxic parents who don't give attention and approval freely - Hermes and Apollo are on opposite sides of this spectrum. Apollo in the past has acted out in order to gain attention, whereas Hermes has glued himself to Zeus' side in an attempt to be perfect.

And this perfection includes indoctrinating into Zeus' belief systems and fears. Zeus fears the inevitability of fate. So does Hermes. Zeus refuses to let the gods change. So Hermes believes change impossible. Zeus says that you may not have contact with your mortal children. And although to Hermes this is the hardest of all, he turns his back on Luke.

And yet, 'golden child' is still not his title to claim. That rests with Apollo, still, who has not met Zeus' standards, openly rejects Zeus' belief systems, and yet continues to rise above the rest.

That is the formula for a deteriorating relationship between brothers: Apollo's mere existence being an everyday reminder to Hermes that he is a failure both to his son and to his father.

Everyone say hello to our old friend resentment.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that Hermes and Apollo's relationship is inherently negative. But there's a lot of reason for there to be some contention coming from Hermes (and I didn't even touch on May Castellan - basically, I think Apollo refused to oversee her attempt to become the next Oracle because he knew it wouldn't work, which is why he wasn't present for May's attempt, but was for Rachel's; later on, Hermes could start seeing Apollo's domain and subsequent absence as the thing that drove her mad).

We don't have a lot of hints for whether or not he plans to act on those feelings of resentment. But they're there. And in a new, post-trials Olympus, they're going to come to light sooner or later.

Because Percy was right.

"I thought you were a bad father," I admitted. "I thought you abandoned Luke because you knew his future and didn't do anything to stop it."

That's exactly what happened. And because of Apollo, Hermes now knows it.

(a list of my other metas if you'd like to read)

And a very special shoutout to @firealder2005 for writing this absolutely gut-wrenching and angsty but super cool fic based around this very idea that i am absolutely in love with and everyone should go read it ❤️

[rosepaint81]

[lily-of-the-vclley]

Luke, baby, it’s okay. I get it now. I too would turn evil if my neglectful father was Lin Manuel Miranda

[arihuntress]

I imagine that post toa (After Trials of Apollo ) Meg teaches Lester how to go Shopping for groceries. She writes a list at 2 am in the morning with the ugliest handwriting the world of hafbloods has ever seen and gives it to him to read it while searching for Store items. I also imagine Meg sliding, with the shopping car, down the aile in the supermarket, when meanwhile Lester tries to read the fucking paper😂 he also has a lot of pircings and Meg wears the strawberry earings, her sister Miranda has given her as a final welcome present for camp! Also if you look closely you can see that Zeus is Not really happy that his son is spending his time, his now again GODLY time, with the mortals and orders Hermes to get him. Wonder if he does…….

Ps: Lester really doesńt know the fun Parts about Halloween if even anything^^

Oh and I also gave him a mix of blond and Brown hair, because you know, ohhhhh and golden eyes and oh no acne…..BUT I left his scars because I think they are very important memories someone cańt take away so easily!

[freddie-77-ao3]

Annabeth: Percy annoyed me today so I told him that I can’t wait to see what he has planned for our special day tomorrow. Grover: But there's nothing special about tomorrow? Annabeth: But there is something special about watching the colour leave his face as panic takes over.

[percabethcoded]

THIS IS SO WHOLESOME 🤏🏼🥹

[amiti-art]

Part 2 of this post

Apollo is probably crying somewhere in the background at this point

[apollosothertwin]

all of the younger olympians have different ways of dealing with grief

athena separates herself from the violence of war

hermes avoids his children so he doesn’t get attached

ares shoves it all down and puts on a mask of uncaring

dionysus changes the names of the demigods so he doesn’t remember them

hephaestus stays away from people, focusing on his machines

apollo just keeps on hurting while giving himself a mask of dumb blondness

[apollosgiftofprophecy]

“Apollo is Zeus’s least favorite son-“

Me: *grasps you by the shoulders* NO. HE IS THE FAVORITE SON. LITERALLY WHO ELSE WOULD BE THE FAVORITE? ARES? THE GUY ZEUS LEFT IN A JAR AND SAID TO HIS FACE HE DESPISED HIM? HERMES? THE GUY WHO IS JUST THERE? HEPHAESTUS? THE GUY WHO AVOIDS OLYMPUS LIKE THE PLAGUE? DIONYSUS? THE GUY WHO IS CHAOTIC?

listen to me. LISTEN TO ME. *frantically shakes shoulders* THIS WILL SOUND BACKWARDS BUT IT MAKES SENSE.

ZEUS. PUNISHES. HIS FAVORITES. WITH. THE WORST. PUNISHMENTS.

therefore, we can conclude Apollo is the favorite and Dionysus as second favorite son.

also Apollo is mythologically the favorite son. so.

BIG OL’ PILE OF ANGST POTENTIAL!

[kastalani123]

There's something about the idea that gods change according to belief.

There's something about Aphrodite having to drop her sword and shield and pick up a makeup brush and mirror.

There's something about Zeus's Crown overtaking his hospitality.

There's something about Ares being scrubbed of his care with blood.

There's something about Hera's care being thrown in her face because of her cruelty.

There's something about Dionysus having his artistry and wildness ripped away from him due to his partying.

There's something about Hermes losing his chthonic connections in favour of his trickery.

There's something about Demeter surrendering her fierce, protective love and power over life and death to become a hysterical mother.

There's something about Athena's femininity and protectiveness fading to make her grip her spear and grasp her thoughts tighter.

There's something about Hephaestus forgetting his creations' finesse and intricacy to focus on pure function and efficiency.

There's something about Poseidon's earth-shaking rage that causes waves to rise above the tallest mountains being reduced to occasional vengefulness.

There's something about Apollo giving up his herds and truth and wisdom and plagues to speak the future and heal the wounded through song.

There's something about Artemis turning from children and childbirth to fixate on the wilderness.

There's something about the idea that gods change according to belief.

[emmedoesntdomath]

showing us from the start- from the very fucking beginning- that hermes KNOWS that he’s a shit father, KNOWS that he fucked up with luke, KNOWS that none of it is fair- is goddamn cruel, and the writers fucking know it.

because here’s the thing, right? hermes knows all of this shit, acknowledges that it isn’t fair, even says that the other gods know it isn’t fair- and yet they all dismiss it because that’s parenting. they know they’ve royally screwed the system, oh yes, but that’s just life, you know? what can you do? they’re all-powerful beings- but feelings and mortals are hard, bro, and no matter how hard you try, you can’t make them see things the way you see them. hermes made a mistake, a HUGE one, and when confronted, he offers nothing but excuses. because that’s what the gods are. immortal, unbreakable beings, who, in their moment of failure, ignore it.

that’s not a casual character flaw, that’s rick waving a red flag under our noses and calling it a mild foretelling.

and you know what the real kicker is?

hermes told percy and annabeth this because he thought they were going to forget. he couldn’t even own up to his own actions under anything but false pretenses.

the gods, people.

[someonecomegettheirchild]

I do think that Apollo, Hermes and Dionysus are the chaos trio of Mount Olympus and that Apollo and Hermes have been trying to figure out elaborate ways to sneak D some wine without Zeus finding out for the past hundred years that all get progressively more stupid.

[rosepaint81]

[another-argo]

•°☆ open starter ☆°●

Argo sits in his cabin, bundled in what looks like a baby blanket as they cry hysterically.

All the Hermes kids are too scared to approach them, but they seem to understand his pain.

It's Christmas, or at least a few days away, and Argo.. is alone. Their brother, their mom- both are gone; and have been gone for a while. And it's not like Hermes is going to show up for him- because he never has.

Argo pathetically tries to cover up their sobbing.

NO TAGLIST (I don't feel like typing them all out) WE DIE LIKE REAL MEN!!!!

INTERACT!! YEAH! DO THAT!

[frozenrose20]

I've done minor character headcanons so prepare for my gods headcanons

Apollo naturally has golden eyes but he realized his father hated his eyes because they where the same shade as kronos. Because of this he tries to always have sky blue eyes in honor of his father. He also tries to pass it on to his kids in hope his father will be kinder to them......it has never worked but he doesn't plan to stop trying.

Hermes and Dionysus were very close during the prohibition era. Dionysus threw the parties and Hermes supplied the alcohol their fake mobster aliases are still well known in New York to this day.

While Hermes was the one to invent the internet many of the other gods were trying to race him to get out their versions first but you cant beat Hermes in a race. Athena is still salty to this day

In the old days Artemis would normally stay in a form that was the same age as her brother but when she realized that Zeus and her brother took her side more when she wore a youthful appearance it became her main form.

Zeus favors his daughter more because he doesn't think they can over thow him.

When it come to daughters Persephone is Zeus' least favorit because of all the chaos her marriage caused. its why he sits her next to his least favorite son (Apollo)

Aphrodite was very vocal in the civil right movement because she is love and beauty for all aspects and races.

These are it for now <3

[bugwolfsstuff]

You ever think Apollo ever accidentally mistook Connor for Hermes in the few short times he's been in camp during ToA?

Oh yeah, lets make that mother fucker miss people other than Artemis and his lovers