#tmnt age discourse

[sewerpeaches]

The Answer to the Age Old Question:

Who is older, Donatello or Raphael?

The long answer that you didn't come here for is: it depends on the continuity. So you can find my breakdowns for each continuity here (eventually).

The short answer:

Donatello

Why?

#1. "Word of God" #2. IDW Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2011), volume 5 #3. Character/family/team dynamics #4. Aesthetics

~ 1 ~

For those unfamiliar with the term, the Word of God is "A statement regarding some ambiguous or undefined aspect of a work, the Word of God comes from someone considered to be the ultimate authority, such as the creator, director, writer or producer of a TV show / video game / film / etc."

With that in mind, Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird co-created Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in 1984. Unlike a fair amount of co-created series, TMNT is actually an evenly split brain-child (ie neither Eastman nor Laird seems to be any more responsible for or involved in its creation/production/etc than the other).

On August 14, 2014, Kevin Eastman stated "I'm going to take a bold step and say Donatello is older" during a Reddit AMA .

I couldn't find so much as a whiff of Peter Laird's explicit opinion on the matter (for all my searching... and there was a lot), but that also means that I never found him contradicting Kevin Eastman's statement. (More subjectively, Laird seems to have essentially directed the 2k3 run and I'll post my take on why 2k3 has peak little-brother Raph energy here (eventually))

At any rate, if you're the type of person who accepts the "Word of God" at face value, then continue no further! I, however, don't do that—hence why this is only reason 1 of 3 (4).

~ 2 ~

If you're not familiar with IDW Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2011) then read it, because it's phenomenal, it's the franchise's longest running piece of media ever and up until volume 100, original co-creator Kevin Eastman co-wrote the series and collaborated on page layouts. The much acclaimed Last Ronin, the first thing written by both Eastman and Laird since the original Mirage run, is set in the IDW-verse as its own version of SAINW.

The premise of the IDW run is that Splinter's and the Turtles' souls are reincarnated from those of a human family that lived in feudal japan (yes it sounds stupid, but it's touched on very little and is executed surprisingly well). And that means that the Turtles' corresponding human-selves are all visibly different ages (because unlike turtles, it's not so common for humans to have quadruplets).

So when we see the Turtles' human selves in volume 5...

It's clear in both appearance and mannerisms that Don is older than Raph.

They're definitely the closest in age of the siblings, but still most assuredly different ages.

Besides Raph being smaller than Don with shorter and chubbier limbs, his hairstyle also strikes me as more baby-like (kinda like the ancient version of the ponytail parent's give their 1 year olds when they don't have enough hair yet to actually do anything with). His mannerisms also lend themselves to that of a younger child—more sleepy, much more oblivious to his surroundings, and more clingy. Don's also shown to be able to stand, while Raph seems like he might not be able to yet.

~ 3 ~

This reason is subjective, which is why I've listed it last and need more space to elaborate on it. You'll find the unabridged version on my blog at some point under this tag (eventually), because I simply have Too Many Thoughts™ to contain within a post not dedicated specifically to it.

The short of it is: Donatello's character has always seemed to be designed around being second-in-charge—both in team and family contexts.

I don't think anyone would argue against the fact that Don is the go-to turtle. Doesn't matter what continuity you look at, when Leo anyone runs into a problem, they turn to Don.

You could argue that Donnie's the smart one and "so it only makes sense to turn to him to fix a problem" (and that's a bit of a catch-22 that I'll talk about in more detail in the unabridged version!). However... he's not a real person and so him being the smart one that characters always turn to when Leo falters (including Leo!) is a deliberate choice by the creators. And in the context of the The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle's very traditional operating style—with heavy emphasis on hierarchy by age, blood, etc.—it's very telling.

Were they a real family, yes, they would have developed their personalities/aptitudes mostly independently of their birth order, but given that specifically assigning children roles/ideals based on birth order is a significant player in Japanese culture (especially ancient Japanese culture which pertains to ninjitsu on which TMNT is based)... well... (I mean just look at how Splinter treats Leo).

Anyway, looking at the TMNT franchise as a whole, the advancement of the plot, in 9/10 cases, hinges on Don coming up with a solution either (1) via Leo coming up with something, pointing him in a direction, and asking "Don can you make [insane thing] work?" or (2) when Leo stalls entirely and Don has to take over. And though it's a formula, it's a formula with a million different permutations so it stays interesting.

Raph's role is to go into a berserker rage and brute force a second-wind powerup when when fighting is the only option. He's as the one who makes the first option work when Leo & Don are stuck and he has to, not the one who comes up with the second option. And, narrative-wise, it would be boring and lazy for the Turtles to only ever brute force plan A. (Happy to say I wrote this before I saw Laird say the same thing about Raph (bottom of #55))

That very distinct chain-of-command is why we get things like this, which is much more interesting and satisfying than beat-the-thing-until-it-stops:

The same follows in terms of family dynamics. Leo & Raph are simply too similar for the family to feel "balanced" if they're the two eldest brothers. There's no functionality in a family where 1 & 2 are providing nothing different or, worse, butting heads. Don holds the emotional stability of the family in the palm of his hand, largely just by existing as the buffer between Leo & Raph (we all know what happens in SAINW).

And, just from a characterization perspective, it seems much more natural for Raph to turn to Don for comfort than vice versa.

(Again, I'm gonna just... aggressively point to IDW.)

I'll go into this much more in the unabridged version, but I wanted to touch upon it here: setting Don aside for a moment, I see so many people argue for Raph being the second son based entirely upon his attitude towards Leo and ignoring everything and everyone else. It sorta drives me insane, tbh. I think it's a wildly shallow interpretation of his character.

Raph's entire hang-up is not around being second best, it's around being denied authority/autonomy in general—you know, stemming from being a mutant and being banned from doing 9/10 things he'd like to? That's why we see him fighting with Leo; Leo is the only authority he can fight (putting aside crime syndicate-type authority which he also fights obv). But more importantly, we also see him exerting as much power as he can by playfully, not cruelly bullying Mikey //glares at 2k12 (and in more source-compliant adaptations, yes, it is only Mikey that he truly messes with //glares harder at 2k12) or going off solo.

As much as I love 2k7, specifically the Leo/Raph dynamic, it's not actually a good representation of their real relationship—more of a spin-off "what if" (which Laird has also said). And 2k12 is ok plot-wise, but as far as I'm concerned it mostly fails at creating any compelling character dynamics and it crashes and burns in terms of staying true to source material. C':

~ 4 ~

Finally, I will end this post with my strongest argument for Don being second-eldest...

Sunset Aesthetic

[majachee]

HOW COME she shows up for only ONE EPISODE... SHE IS SO CUTE... BRING ME BACK MY LESBIANS.

[teojira]

[ᴍᴏɴꜱᴛᴇʀ ᴡʜᴏ ᴀᴛᴇ ᴀ ꜱᴛᴀʀ]

ᴛᴇᴏᴊɪʀᴀ (ᴇꜱᴛ 2ᴋ24)

《Introduction》 +

《! Please read me !》

¤ Hi! My name is Teddy and this blog as it says on the tin, is a multifandom blog! I'm into a wide range of characters and interests, so I'm sure I have something that'll strike your fancy!

¤ This is an 18+ blog. This is to keep me and you safe should you be a minor. Please stay away! I can't police you, but use common sense.

¤ I will not deal with discourse here, don't like what I write or who I write for? Block me and move on, I don't care.

¤ I am a woman person of color, no hatred towards ANY group is tolerated here. It will end in an IP address block.

¤ My interests fluctuates alot, I have severe adhd and some characters will get special treatment depending on which mood I am in!

¤ I'm always down to chat and make conversation but please remember I'm human and I have a job outside of tumblr, this is just a hobby for me! Please be kind and understanding.

《RULES/GUIDELINES》

¤ Every character I will write romantic ideas for must be of age. Any minor will ONLY be platonic. (Exception being the tmnt brothers, they are aged up accordingly.)

¤I write comfort, fluff, angst, pretty much anything tbh.

¤ My own rule of thumb is that if a furry character is sentient, can consent and is of age, and speaks/thinks/acts like a human, it is akin to monster loving. (Harkness scale pretty much). I don't care for your take on it, block me if you disagree!

¤ I will not write nsfw if you are on anon, your age must be somewhere on your blog. I will delete it from my askbox.

¤ A please and a thank you go a long way!

¤ I usually write with she/her pronouns or gender neutral pronouns.

¤ I am not looking for critique, this is all for fun. This is a heavy boundary, I will block if you do this.

¤ NSFW will be tagged accordingly so you can black list, if I forget to tag something, kindly let me know. I am not responsible for your experience beyond that, act accordingly if I write something you don't like.

¤ Please include some details with your requests, such as character and a general idea on what you'd like me to write! Please don't write an essay in my ask box.

¤ Things I will not write: Pregnancy, Underage, harder kinks (Scat/Noncon/vore/piss), Character harming reader physically, Parenthood, character x character.

Not sure if I write something? Just shoot me a text!

¤ Do NOT share my writing anywhere else (Quotev, Ao3, wattpad, Tiktok). A Simple reblog is appreciated here and only on tumblr.

¤ Comments and reblogs are greatly appreciated! It's nice to know something I wrote was loved!

And finally what we've all been waiting for, put your hands together for the :

《 Fandoms I write for》

Genshin impact

Honkai Star rail

Transformers

Tmnt

Monsterverse (platonic only for the Kaijus)

Planet of the apes (remake) (NO nsfw)

My hero academia (Dabi and Tomura only)

Demon slayer

Overwatch

Twisted wonderland

Devil may cry

Apex legends (Revenant only)

Fire emblem three houses

Puss in boots: the last wish (Death only)

Stranger things (Eddie Munson only)

Red dead redemption 2

The Wolf among us (Bigby only)

Five nights at freddys: Security Breach

Sonic (platonic for everyone except Shadow)

DC comics/ DCEU

Horror icons/slashers

Countless other video game characters probably lmao.

Though I write for many fandoms, I'm more comfortable with specific characters so I'll let you know if I'm comfortable enough to write for them!

Don't see a character you're sweet on? No worries, shoot me a text and I'll see if I know anything about them to whip something up for ya!

ᴛʜᴀɴᴋ ʏᴏᴜ ᴠᴇʀʏ ᴍᴜᴄʜ ꜰᴏʀ ʀᴇᴀᴅɪɴɢ ᴀɴᴅ ɪ ʜᴏᴘᴇ ᴛᴏ ʜᴇᴀʀ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ʏᴏᴜ ꜱᴏᴏɴ!

☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆ ☆

[pingobeshifting]

YOOOOOOOO

(so I finally decided to make an intro post! I literally have no idea what l'm doing but y'all can always hit me up with new ways to decorate this thing-)

my main blog is @the-badass-penguin

my name is aylar but you can also call me pen, pingo, riley, tsuki, agash or ilgar!

my pronouns are "she/her" but I don't mind being referred to as "they/them"

I am a shifter and my main drs are currently mha(vigilante ver) and Batfam, but I also have a Naruto, last legacy, genshin, tmnt, DC(god ver), mha(student ver), the arcana and possibly opm planned. I would love to chat about our drs sometimes <333

DNI if:

you are an anti-shifter. not believing in shifting is one thing, hating on it and the shifting community is another.

you support the tiktok discourse. you race change? good for you. you age yourself up/down? have fun. you have *insert problematic character* as your s/o? good luck, I would love to interact with you.

you're homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, misogynistic, racist, sexist, ableist, or show any other type of discrimination.

you Invalidate a person's pronouns/Gender/Identity.

k byeee🐧

[tiny-paws]

Pinned post! :3

Hello!! This is a blog run by a few members of our system ( @the-honey-system ) who wanted a space for agere and therian content. We take requests for moodboards, outfits and bags!

Please read our DNI near the bottom of this post before interacting!

introductions, request info and DNI below the cut!! ^^

(divider by @firefly-graphics)

Introductions!

Mikey (he/art/paint) - rottmnt fictive

- age regressor (5-9)

Bee (they/hon/paw) - brainmade

- therian (calico cat)

The Doctor/Ten (any pronouns)

- doctor who fictive

- age regressor (1-5)

Pearl (she/her)

- hermitcraft/life series fictive

- age regressor (6-12)

Tango (flare/spark/cog/char)

- hermitcraft/life series fictive

- age regressor (3-10)

Requests:

We take requests for agere and otherkin/therian related moodboards, outfit boards and bags!

We will do:

✅ fandoms: ben and holly’s little kingom, bluey, bnha, celeste, doctor who (nuwho up to s7), D20 fantasy high, glitter force, hermitcraft, life series, minecraft, mlp, nimona, pokemon, rottmnt, rpf (only some—mainly alpharad and his circle—but ask!), studio ghibli, the magnus archives, tmnt 2012, turning red, zelda botw/totk

✅ non-fandoms (eg animals, plants, colour schemes, seasons)

✅ moodboards: a collection of photos with a theme, meant to look nice!

✅ outfit boards: clothes and accessories, with a toy or fidget

✅ bags: a backpack/bag with items for a day, such as food, toys, books, etc.

We will not do:

❌ anything in our DNI list

❌ anything religious (only modern religion; ancient religion is okay!)

❌ anything medical in nature (including vets)

❌ diapers (sorry about this one, diapers are super valid, we’ve just had icky experiences)

❌ the dream team (from mcyt)

❌ cc!wilbur soot

Extra notes:

✨ please specify whether your request is agere or therian related! this makes it easier for us to make exactly what you want!

✨ feel free to request something for a fandom not listed—we might say no, but it’s worth a shot! (you might need to be more specific on themes with characters we don’t know!)

✨ be as specific as you want with requests, although if something’s too specific we might not get it perfect. if your request is very general, we may take artistic liberties!

✨ we have the right to deny any request. sometimes we just won’t feel comfortable completing something.

DNI:

- nsfw/k!nk, abd|/dd|g/variants, sh or gore, pro-ed, blogs you wouldn’t show a child

- anti-LGBTQ+, anti-xenogenders/neopronouns, racists, ableists, fatphobes, etc

-anti-agere, anti-otherkin/therian, anti-petre, participants in “cringe culture”, bullies

- tcest, blogs that post abt ince$t/pedoph!lia

- anti-self diagnosis

- syscourse, or discourse in general

if you are/post any of these, please do not interact. we will just block you.

(dni banner used in our posts made by @little-catgirlboy)

Tags list!

#mikey chirps — mikey’s posts/rbs

#bee meows — bee’s posts/rbs

# tango purrs — tango’s posts/rbs

#pearl hums — pearl’s posts/rbs

#ten rambles — ten/doctor’s posts/rbs

#little helpers — other members of the system

#tiny paw boards — moodboards/requests

#tiny paw styles — outfits/requests

#tiny paw packs — bags/requests

#tiny paw scribbles — doodles/art

#tiny paw talks — text posts

Userboxes!!

(theyre very fun so we have lots hehe)

(userboxes, in order, made by: @empyrangel, @me-and-the-squad-being-otherkin, @chronicallylav3nd3r, @xenohunt, @inclusysboxes , @very-normal-userboxes, @sweetpeauserboxes, @strwbubs, @strwbubs, @scungledfiles, @lil-kibby-zone, @pumpkinangelminnie, @sweetpeauserboxes, @sysboxes, @scungledfiles, @bi-lesbian, @sweetpeauserboxes, @cutevintagetoys, @tazmaboxed, @sysboxes)

[honeyshinee]

Welcome to my blog!

About me!

✨Ellie

🌕 She/he

🍋Toddler regressor and kid regressor (little ages 3 - 8)

🧽Kitten pet regressor

🍯Minor

🐝Do not interact if: over 35, racist, homophobic, transphobic, anti agere, anti petre, kink/nsfw blogs, meanies

🍌Main blog: @i-eat-b0n3z

Other!

🌼Likes: Yu Yu Hakusho, Ao Haru Ride, the park, roller skating, coloring, Mickey Mouse Clubhouse, my toys, sleeping, clowns, TMNT, music

🧸Dislikes: Purple, scary movies, grapes, waking up late, bullies, being overstimulated

🍮I do moodboards and outfits, requests are open! Please read my request rules before asking!

Boundaries!

💫I have an imaginary cg, not looking for a real one

🧀Please don't talk about/mention: blobfish, mouthwashing (game), horror movies or their characters, discourse of any kind, the new my little pony show, anything to do with violence

🍪Nicknames/pet names: totally fine! you can call me any that you want, but my favorite is sunshine!

[fnaf-kins]

Five Nights at Freddy's Kin

This is an intro post for this blog! Please read/ skim over if you want to send in asks!!

This blog was definitely inspired by @/fictionkinfessions go check them out :3

What are kins/ fictives?

This blog is for any FNAF kins! If you want to know more about kins click here or here or here! Of course I would recommend doing your own research but I recommend these links to start! And if you want to know more about introjects/ fictives click here or here or here!

(Note: I am not a system/ part of a system, so if these links are harmful in any way I will take them down)

Rules for asks

I have quite a few rules for asks/ answers to asks which are:

Do not use your own blog, only use anon

If you want to differentiate yourself from other Anons you can use sign offs. For example: Freddy (🐻🎤). I will make a master list eventually to show which emoji (combos) are taken

This blog is for all ages, if you talk about NSFW in your asks please keep it as vague as possible

Only use the asks box if you are a FNAF kin/ fictive etc.

Do not bring discourse onto my blog please, if you do you will be ignored/ deleted

If looking for canon mates, or source mates please try your best to describe in detail who you are looking for and your canon.

If you fine someone from your canon from an ask interact in the post in some way to let the asker know that you are what they are looking for. Do not interact with posts searching for canon/ source mates if you do not apply to what they are looking for.

Delusional attachments are welcome to interact but please do not send asks, this is a blog for kins (umbrella term) and fictives/ introjects. Please respect this

Do not use any special fonts in your asks, and if you use typing quirks please provide a translation

This list may be updated as seen fit in the future!!

DNI and Boundaries

Of course I cant prevent anyone from interacting and viewing this blog, but if I see that you do apply to any on these things I will just block you, simple as that

Racists

Homophobes & Transphobes

Transmeds

Terfs

Proshippers and comshippers (anti antis)

Endos/ Tupla "systems"

Anti kin

Anti recovery

If you force your religion down other people throats

Xenophobes

Nazis

Zoophiles

Ableists

RCTA

If you make S/A jokes

If you're antisemitic

About Me!!

Hiii online I go by Hades or Icarus. I am a minor and autistic. I am agender and go by he/they/it!

My kins are:

Norman Afton/ CC (FNaF)

Will Byers (Stranger Things)

Donatello Hamato (Rise of the TMNT)

Craig Tucked (South Park)

I also run another blog like this for Stranger Things Kins! Here's the link if you wanna check it out :3

Credits for the divider:

www.girl

[stranger-things-kinfessions]

Stranger Things Kin

This is an intro post for this blog! Please read/ skim over if you want to send in asks!!

This blog was definitely inspired by @/fictionkinfessions go check them out :3

What are kins/ fictives?

This blog is for any Stranger Things kins! If you want to know more about kins click here or here or here! Of course I would recommend doing your own research but I recommend these links to start! And if you want to know more about introjects/ fictives click here or here or here!

(Note: I am not a system/ part of a system, so if these links are harmful in any way I will take them down)

Rules for asks

I have quite a few rules for asks/ answers to asks which are:

Do not use your own blog, only use anon

If you want to differentiate yourself from other Anons you can use sign offs. For example: Will Byers (💛🎥). I will make a master list eventually to show which emoji (combos) are taken

This blog is for all ages, if you talk about NSFW in your asks please keep it as vague as possible

Only use the asks box if you are a Stranger Things kin/ fictive etc.

Do not bring discourse onto my blog please, if you do you will be ignored/ deleted

If looking for canon mates, or source mates please try your best to describe in detail who you are looking for and your canon.

If you fine someone from your canon from an ask interact in the post in some way to let the asker know that you are what they are looking for. Do not interact with posts searching for canon/ source mates if you do not apply to what they are looking for.

Delusional attachments are welcome to interact but please do not send asks, this is a blog for kins (umbrella term) and fictives/ introjects. Please respect this

Do not use any special fonts in your asks, and if you use typing quirks please provide a translation

This list may be updated as seen fit in the future!!

DNI and Boundaries

Of course I cant prevent anyone from interacting and viewing this blog, but if I see that you do apply to any on these things I will just block you, simple as that

Racists

Homophobes & Transphobes

Transmeds

Terfs

Proshippers and comshippers (anti antis)

Endos/ Tupla "systems"

Anti kin

Anti recovery

If you force your religion down other people throats

Xenophobes

Nazis

Zoophiles

Ableists

RCTA

If you make S/A jokes

If you're antisemitic

About Me!!

Hiii online I go by Hades or Icarus. I am a minor and autistic. I am agender and go by he/they/it!

My kins are:

Norman Afton/ CC (FNaF)

Will Byers (Stranger Things)

Donatello Hamato (Rise of the TMNT)

Craig Tucker (South Park)

I also run another blog like this for FNaF Kins! Here's the link if you wanna check it out :3

Credits for the divider:

Firefly Graphics

[angelmichelangelo]

your photo of the mm artbook and all the discourse surrounding donnie vs mikey ages has made its way to tmnt tiktok LOL. most seem to coming to the twins consensus which i am very much a supporter of 🫡

hahaha i did see a tiktok the other day with my photo and was like. oh man what did i start hahaha

but YES TO THE B TEAM TWIN TEAM!!!

[deviltotz]

🌈 ABOUT ME:

my big age is 20! little age... pending lol i'm not sure

i use he/ae/it (please switch every so often!) & also/especially like neos based on my special interests (listed below!) - all terminology is fine, but i have a slight preference for masc terms unless specified otherwise

i'm all kindsa queer, nd/mentally ill, & physically disabled! i may mention this every here n there, n i'm always open to questions or discussions about it if you're curious or want someone to talk to :]

i started out being a caregiver for a loved one but then started dreaming/regressing myself for coping reasons heheh;;; i'm very new to this and very very new to openly discussing it, so i may be a bit shy! it's nothing personal!

most of the time i am a human! sometimes i am a kittycat or a turtle! you know how it is

i'm also fictionkin/otherkin n may mention that from time to time :]

🌈 SPECIAL INTERESTS:

batman, specifically focusing on bruce wayne & the rogue's gallery [8+ years]

comics in general (esp. daredevil, tmnt, the sandman, umbrella academy, moon knight) [roughly the same amount of time as batman - he started it!]

horror (esp. horror movies) [~9+ years]

the sims games [~13 years]

[childhood special interests that may make a resurgence: my little pony, the victorian era, rube goldberg machines]

🌈 BOUNDARIES:

BYF:

i tag horror-related content as #horror tag for blacklisting ease! any specific triggers will be tagged "[triggering content] tw"

i'm not comfortable with publicly sharing my real name or main blog! please refer to me by nickname/url in public posts even if you know my name. long-term mutuals can ask for my main if you'd like!

i'm an adult and likely to be more comfortable interacting with other adults! it's nothing personal :]

DNI:

pro/ship, ns/fw, dd/lg or ki/nk, adult content blogs, anti-xenogenders/neopronouns/good faith identities, exclu/sionists, (no)ma/ps or their supporters, pro-ana/anti-recovery, anti-agere, anti-lgbt, ableists (including ppl who demonise cluster b), anti-kin, discourse blogs, if i have any of your other blogs blocked

[note: if your ns/fw blog is a sideblog, you can interact from main/reblog onto a different sideblog!]

(banners by bunnelbaby & annieagere)

[princessgemma12]

Fandom Wank Ramble

okay there's some discourse circulating again and I'm just gonna do a little ramble below the cut to get my thoughts out because I think people really lack perspective on how socio-cultural, political, and fandom issues could actually intersect.

some fandom bs give you the ick? This'll have f/f discourse, proship/fiction/SALS/anti-censorship ideas, and purity culture-related stuff.

Okay so @/olderthannetfic and @/damnfandomproblems have both been getting a bit of an influx of ship-related submissions/asks, and it got me thinking about the whole thing.

The f/f shipping community and the anti-ship and otherwise pro-censorship communities have been pretty deep in the fandom wank sphere for at least have a decade each now, and I see some similarities but mostly they're very different, but I think they both completely miss what their own points probably should be

For f/f shippers (and I'm a multishipper fyi), I think the issue in discourse has been the level of entitlement that they can exude. It's preachy and it's virtue-signal-y to sit behind your screen and yell at m/m shippers about "well look at THIS F/F SHIP THEY"RE WAYYY BETTER" when a lot of the time those people don't make their own art for said ship. like, yes, f/f shippers, I DO think we should give f/f pairings more credit, more space, and more attention--but I don't think that starts inside the fandom sphere.

There are all of three fem. characters that I write, can write, even remotely close to their canon presentation, and that's taken me over six years to do so reliably.

I write women characters and I write femme characters and I write afab characters literally all the time. My main characters, except for TMNT fanfic, are usually fem./femme. But my TMNT gals (and Harley Quinn, on the off occasion I manage to write for that lol) are the only ones I can keep pretty close to canon personality and drives for.

Amy Kramer, whom I write for a lot nowadays, is pretty flat in her canon--she was twelve in the Night of the Living Dummy 2 book, so it makes sense. I age her up to 15+ and Put Her In Situations. I've created so much lore for her that I could probably transcribe it into original content (I won't though, I want this to be fanfiction). Jillian Zinman, too, from Bride of the Living Dummy. I've barely scratched the surface for them.

The thing is, and I think this is the core issue of the f/f thing, a lot of women and femme characters are not well-developed. A lot of f/f pairings, particularly canon ones, are not well-developed.

I'm not saying that woman characters are boring or unappealing, I'm saying that, textually, they generally lack the draw that their masc. counterparts tend to have.

Let's look at a contentious one: Charlie Morningstar from Hazbin Hotel and her two main companions: Alastor, whom she has been shipped with in fandom since 2019, and Vaggie, her canonical girlfriend that a lot of people genuinely thought was her bestie for a while after the pilot dropped. Hazbin spoilers ahead!

I like Vaggie. I loooooove this angsty ex-exterminator girl and her loyalty and her fierce, unbridled protective instincts. She's got that scary dog appeal where she's big and tough on the outside, and the inside, but super squishy inside. I adore her. I think her and Charlie have an important relationship and dynamic in-canon, and I see the appeal of two contrasting, but supporting, women being lovey.

I don't like her with Charlie. I don't; not in the long-term, at least. I think their relationship is foundational for both of them, and for the Hotel, but I really don't want them to stay romantic partners. I don't.

This is just my perspective, and it's biased, I know it is, and this doesn't at all make Chaggie an "invalid" ship or whatever the weird charged lingo is these days. But. Let me bring you into my brain for a moment:

I'm backstage for an important interview. This could make or break my Dream--my big move! My partner is backstage with me; he's a cishet allo dude--Very Man, so to speak, like a younger Bobbie from Supernatural, less jaded and such. I am Weird and I do Weird Things to convey my passion--I'm openly and very outwardly neurodivergent and Odd for my society, and he at least passes as a neurotypical Regular Person.

He tells me not to do the thing that is natural to me; the Weird Thing. For me, in reality, it could gushing, it could stimming. He tells me to "be normal," essentially. He tells me to, basically, not be myself.

He does this often, in front of others, too!

Is that okay? Is that supportive, is it appropriate?

Because I don't think that it is. It's protective, sure--he doesn't want me to be ridiculed, and he doesn't want people to stigmatize what I'm doing based on things I can't really help. But ultimately what he's doing is stifling me based on Those Very Things. He's telling me to mask and act like I'm a different person than I am. That might be supportive of my Big Dream, but it's not very supportive of Me, as a person.

Would you ship us? I imagine most Chaggie shippers wouldn't, despite the fact that this is exactly how Vaggie and Charlie are in canon. Charlie is very AuDHD coded, and Vaggie at least passes as neurotypical (my bf is AuDHD but masks so hard), and Vaggie regularly tells Charlie to not do things that are natural to her.

She tells Charlie not to sing. Multiple times, just on-screen. She has valid reasons for being protective of Charlie's Odd nature (trauma) just as my bf does for mine--the difference is, my bf communicates about those fears and past issues, doesn't just. Effectively try to control me or my Dream for Apparently No Reason.

Vaggie means well--that can't be denied. She has valid reasons for her fears and for her rougher tendencies. She does. But she doesn't communicate. She gives no foundation for Charlie to understand where these tendencies come from, for them to work through them as a couple, as partners. Charlie makes mistakes, too--she pressures Vaggie into taking charge in the trust exercises, into going to Heaven, probably something else I'm not remembering rn. And Charlie shouldn't have done these things. No duh. Charlie does try to communicate about the things she does wrong, though--she apologizes to Vaggie for pressuring her, for making Vaggie feel inadequate, and she opens herself to perspective on why Vaggie lied to her and Charlie forgives her for lying.

Neither of them owed the other forgiveness, and neither of them are more toxic than the other--they're, from my perspective, a fairly non-toxic relationship and non-toxic characters, but I feel like their biggest issue--Vaggie's trauma-based over protectiveness of Charlie's Oddness--isn't even addressed as what it shows up as: a lack of support. Vaggie, in my opinion, supports Charlie's dream, yes, but she doesn't actively support Charlie in asserting herself as Charlie. Her advice is always to Not Do The Charlie Thing.

With the first interview: don't sing.

In the first episode, with the Heaven Embassy meeting: don't sing.

Confronting Valentino: don't be yourself.

She's the only character that actively tells Charlie to not be herself to bring people over to her cause--Angel teases, sure, and Husk is judgy of everyone, but they're ultimately very neutral on the matter. Vaggie means well, but we in Cannibal Town that her lack of active support actually effects Charlie's self-esteem.

We see several times that Charlie being Charlie serves her the best. She entertains Alastor enough to stick around for half a year, then longer; she recruits Pentious; she befriends and ultimately "recruits" Emily; and she makes allies with Rosie and Cannibal Town.

She does all of her best and most valuable work as herself. As her weird, overly optimistic, enthusiastic and singing and dancing self. yet, in Cannibal Town, she doubts herself. She's had the biggest wins of her career, effectively, by not listening to Vaggie, and yet she Doubts Herself.

But there is no revelation about this. There's no argument, no heartfelt conversation and growing together. No one even mentions it in canon... and I'm not drawn to this dynamic. They grow together, somewhat, but the show is written in such a way that directly implies that Vaggie has had a negative impact on Charlie's self-esteem. They're written as a contradiction; they are Very Healthy and Very Close and Very Happy explicitly and Do Growth and yet... the writing and story plots show Charlie's self-esteem suffering because of Vaggie. Not that Vaggie caused this issue to begin with, but Vaggie is perpetuating it.

I don't enjoy it because it's just a thinly-veiled unhealthy dynamic. It's the same thing in every Hallmark Christmas movie. It's boring. I like them as counterparts--I think they're very interesting as business partners, and I think their affection is great. but I find them a very boring couple.

On the other hand... Alastor has a very unique relationship with Charlie and he does actively support her despite being an ass. The commercial was a dick move, and he manipulated Vaggie into a foot-in-the-door deal, but he ultimately is written to have a more actively supportive role in the Hotel and Charlie's self-actualization than Vaggie is. Yes, a lot of his affection is manipulative, and I never said he was healthy for Charlie, just look at Dad Beat Dad, he's super manipulative of her, but he's still... weirdly supportive in a much more active way than Vaggie. He takes her to the place he knows she will thrive--Cannibal Town--and routinely provides actual physical support for the Hotel.

He is drawn to the Hotel because of Charlie being Charlie. He sings and dances with her before any other character. They immediately hit it off (romantic or platonic is up for interpretation) in the pilot. It's exploitative, but he gets the Hotel more staff (Husk and Niff), redecorates and updates the infrastructure. He repairs things regularly. He is shown to be the actual protector of the Hotel--right out the door, in the pilot, Alastor protects the hotel from a threat, not Vaggie. And he does so what? four times to Vaggie's two?

Sir Pentious's first attack: Alastor.

Pent's second attack: Alastor.

Pent's addition to the Hotel: Vaggie, against Charlie's judgement.

The loan sharks: Al.

Mimzy's bullshit: Al.

The exterminators: everyone.

Alastor 5 - Vaggie 2. That's a pretty stark difference for the gal that's supposed to "Protect [Charlie's] dream." It can even be argued that, in a selfish way, Alastor protects Charlie an additional time in Dad Beat Dad: he protects her from her father and his lack of support. Alastor repairs, he protects, he drives her to do her best as her best--it's for his own gain, yes, and he is clearly manipulating her, but is he doing more harm to Charlie than he is good? Currently, I really don't think so. I think in the future, yeah probably. But right now, Alastor actually, physically does more for Charlie than Vaggie does. For me, that is infinitely more appealing, and more interesting a dynamic to explore than Chaggie's.

Alastor, despite his mystery, is more fleshed out with his relationship to Charlie than Vaggie is. It's more unique and their intentions with each other are more defining for the show. Alastor's questionable intentions for Charlie have been a backdrop for the show since the pilot, all while he is actively supporting her to the best of his ability, meanwhile Vaggie has been (unintentionally) discouraging Charlie from doing what actually works for her from the get-go without any meaningful conflict or growth around that. Chaggie, canonically, is underdeveloped and lacking in depth compared to Charlastor (even platonic Charlastor). A lot of this is the same issue with Huskerdust--their relationship is really cute, and I'm enjoying the slow burn, platonic-with-feelings vibes, but the length of the first season has a negative effect on the depth of the relationships in the show.

Ultimately, Chaggie, at least in numbers, is a much more popular ship than Charlastor--it has some-six-thousand works on Ao3 with the tag, compared to Charlastor's 1-ish thousand. Still, a lot of people, particularly Chaggie shippers, have a really big issue with Charlie being shipped with Alastor--even though, for a lot of us, the issue isn't Vaggie it's Vaggie with Charlie in canon compared to Alastor with Charlie in canon. Chaggie, for a lot of us, is boring in-canon. It's just repainted Hallmark Straight Couple Problems. There's nothing unique or particularly interesting about it. It's not bad, it's just not special beyond being f/f.

And the issue here is with development, not fandom--again Chaggie is ultimately more popular than Charlastor, even just by raw numbers. But look at fem./femme characters in the media. Even still, more often than not, characters that aren't men, or don't have a significant relationship to a man, are underdeveloped. They're flat at worst and lacking depth to their other relationships at best. Meanwhile, the dudes get layers of symbolism and layers to peel back. This is a long-standing issue, and fandom wank isn't going to fix it. If season two of Hazbin comes out and Chaggie gets a massive, deep, well-developed arc amidst the chaos, if they become the driving forces for each other, then yeah. I'll be real fucking interested in them. But if not? Then I'm gonna stay in the Charlastor corner of things. There's just more depth and they have a more distinct relationship in canon.

F/F ships and fem./femme character love isn't a fandom issue--yes, there's misogyny and homophobia in fandom, and transphobia, omg it's almost as if fandom is a subculture of human creativity and viewership omg. But that doesn't stem from fandom. It comes from the outside, it's the broader culture and art sphere that fandom is built from. Is it really so surprising that there's misogyny in the fandom of superhero and big sci-fi franchises when they are, historically, the Women Aren't Important stories? Like. C'mon.

like how the more overtly pro-censorship Anti community focuses on the fandom sphere of darkfic and Nasty Kinky Stuff (I say, as a Nasty Kinky Stuff writer lol), targeting fandom culture and fan creators for their work, while the issues they're purporting to have an issue with are issues in the larger culture and political sphere: CSA survivor support, children's rights and protection, third spaces for kids, comprehensive sexual education that teaches healthy and safe body-person relationships and decreases the risk of childhood sexual abuse and IPV in adolescence. They're issue should be the sexualization of actual real children and people, the erasing of actual real people's lived experiences and identities, not the made-up experiences of made-up people with made-up identities.

Instead of focusing on the actual issues, they focus on the symptoms that manifest within fandom. They push censorship politics that ultimately harm their own purported Cause and harass people in order to somehow virtue signal that they're Better Than The Dirty Shippers That Ship Wrong.

[browless-donnie]

NEW INTRO WOOO

Names:

Corvid/Corv, whatever character my profile is loosely themed around (rn that’s Donnie), any other characters I relate very strongly to (such as Dib)

Age:

24

Pronouns (you may use interchangeably or pick your favorite):

They/Them/Their/Theirs/Themself

He/Him/His/His/Himself

Xe/Xim/Xis/Xis/Ximself

Ve/Ver/Vis/Vis/Verself

That/It/Its/Its/Itself

Al/Alie/Aliens/Aliens/Alienself

Crow/Crow/Crows/Crows/Crowself

Frog/Frog/Frogs/Frogs/Frogself

Moth/Moth/Moths/Moths/Mothself

Vi/Vir/Virus/Virus/Virusself

Xon/Xen/Xens/Xens/Xonself

☢️/☢️/☢️s/☢️s/☢️self

☣️/☣️/☣️s/☣️s/☣️self

You can also check out my pronouns page here: https://pronouns.cc/@cozycorvid

Neurotype:

ADHD-CT, most likely autistic, tone tags not necessary but certainly appreciated on ambiguous messages

Shows I Like:

Rise of The TMNT/Tales of the TMNT/TMNT in general

Invader Zim

Animaniacs

Pinky and The Brain

Gravity Falls

The Owl House

Amphibia

The Ghost and Molly McGee

Making Fiends

Don’t Hug Me I’m Scared

Epithet Erased

The Amazing Digital Circus

Sonic Prime

Games I Like:

The Sims

Pizza Game

Battleblock Theater

Pizza Tower

Monster Prom

Pokémon (especially Pokémon Mystery Dungeon)

Most tabletop games

Sky: Children of the Light

Little Big Planet

Tearaway

Minecraft

Sonic the Hedgehog

Animal Crossing: New Horizons

Ace Attorney

Dokapon Kingdom (Connect)

Godfield

Old flash games

Not so much any particular game but I collect dice that are weird or very specific

Science Interests:

Microbiology

Genetics

Radiochemistry

Pharmacology

Neurology

Psychology

Neurodiversity

Meteorology

Astronomy

Toxicology

Medicine

Other Interests:

Cringer Reviews

Birds

Bugs

Reptiles

Amphibians

Fidget Toys

Plushies

Shitty Bargain Bin Movies

Hats

Paranormal Entities

Trivia

Science History

How Cartoons Are Made

Almost All Kinds of Music

The Little Prince

Being silly and childish :]

DNI:

I don’t have much in the way of special DNI criteria and am actually open to interacting with most people. That said, proship (that includes incest, pedophilia, zoophilia, and the like) and nsfw centric blogs should steer clear. If you mess with my friends you should also steer clear, I already don’t like you. Other varieties of jerks/bigots shouldn’t interact but if you do just be very aware that I try and reblog lots of stuff against that sorta ideology so you can just go ahead and leave.

BYF:

I’m an adult. I will reblog nsfw jokes from time to time and I swear a lot. I’m not a stickler on who follows me and stuff but this IS a heads up that minors should tread lightly as should people who are upset/triggered/repulsed by any nsfw themed content whatsoever. I also am not always as on top of discourse as I should be. I will make mistakes from time to time and would really appreciate it if y’all told me when I do smth wrong so I can work on not doing that again. If I reblog smth from a bad source, let me know and I will fix it/remove the post.

Tags (NEW!):

#caw caw im a crow -> I am saying words

#corvs hall of fame -> I am saying or reblogging words that I would like to keep in my pocket forever

#loom 16 take corridor b down the stairs past the ibis tapestry sliding bookcase after bookcase shows the way to the hall up the pole throug

#h a hole to the waterfall shh keep it down donnie DONATELLO WITH A BOOK IN HIS HAND SAVES THE DAY AND PROVES TO EVERYONE THAT HES THE MAN P

#OPO COMES IN ANS TAKES HIM AWAY BUT DONNIE D WILL LIVE TO FIGHT ANOTHER DAY -> I’m brainrotting so hard about Rise Donnie

#browless donnie/#browless donatello -> I stole Donnie’s eyebrows and posted the result

#corvs chatter -> talking to my friends or maybe just randos via reblogs

#mootagens -> the squad

HMU if you have any questions or want to chat! My inbox is usually open! Membership card by @iisthings , blinky by @duckdodger

[mutated-green-things]

I watched the whole thing, and… I have Thoughts. Mostly good one’s mind you!

1) Man I should really rewatch more of 2k3. I’ve been showing it to my partners but I miss it enough that I might watch it both with and without them. My precious boys.

2) I really liked her idea for Usagi meeting the boys in Rise. Let Leo rescue his boyfriend and turn and try to act like a big shot only for him to see Usagi and total lose vocal control. Like. “Don’t worry! I don’t need a thank you, or applause, I’m just thaaaaaa… uhhh… guh… wow.” It would be a great parallel to 2k3

2.5) I want it to be Usagi Miyamoto too and I’m well. Kind of glad Nick doing the Yuuichi cross over is close to impossible? Sorry Leoichi fans just. Not my vibe.

3) I kind of agree with the ask that was sent to me. She did get pretty hung up on the age discourse but also like. I can’t blame her too much? I have seen some pretty vicious takes from some people in the fandom (especially the Rise arm of the fandom tbh) and having fingers pointed at me even indirectly did and does suck. I think being so vehement about educating people wasn’t necessarily the wrong choice. But when you are already familiar with The Discourse that part can get tiring. Though! Speaking of…

3.5) Okay. So. About The Discourse. Because I feel it must be said? She says explicitly that Usagi is a teen in 2k3 and while it is stated in 2k3 canon that he is younger, his actual age/whether or not he’s a teen is never stated. At least not that I'm aware of. I haven't watched the show in a hot minute and who knows maybe it's in some supplementary content to the cartoon, but yeah. He's younger than UY canon and that Usagi is around 26-27. (Stan Sakai has said previously Usagi is in his mid 20s so he could be 25 canonically??? Who knows) So 2k3 Usagi could be anywhere from what, 16-23 or so??? in the Big Brawl episodes. Which is quite a range, and I think it's ultimately on the onus of watcher to decide where he's situated age wise, both in general and in relation to Leo.

4) SO. Look. Okay. Look. I know this is courting death but. I’ve always seen them as having a somewhat significant age gap? Not anything crazy but. Probably a good four to five years. In my mind when they meet in The Big Brawl Leo and his brothers are 16 (almost 17) and Usagi is either 20 or 21, but here’s the thing. I am a strong believer in the idea that Leo and Usagi take ages to actually start dating. My ideal canon is well. What I wrote for my story In Circles. That they finally start officially dating during April and Casey’s wedding. And I consider every full season TMNT to be a year. So. If Leo starts at 15 in season 1 by season 7 he’s about 20 (note I said full seasons. I think of S5 and S7 to both be about 6 months since they’re exactly half a season.) and then Usagi is about 24/25. I personally think this gap is really not that big of deal. My girlfriend is five years older than me and it has never been an issue. Plus! I think the gap is important. Thematically. Because Leonardo is 18 in season 4. And Usagi, well he sees how much responsibility and horror and shame and fear Leo has been forced to carry. He sees a good friend crumbling under that and He’s Only 18. Usagi sees a friend who has been forced to grow beyond his years, has been forced into a role he may have never wanted, and he SEES HIMSELF. He sees himself rushing to become a samurai and being stomped into someone new by the harsh reality of death and war. Usagi was young when he saw Lord Mifune killed and became a ronin, when he struck out on his own and started to try repent for his mistakes, for his failures, and has been carrying that shame ever since. And at this point. He is older, he is wiser, sure he doesn’t have the wisdom of someone like Master Splinter, but he still knows more. So he tells Leonardo that it is how we deal with death and loss that makes us who we are. And perhaps at that moment he learns a little bit himself. Learns that maybe the shame he’s carrying isn’t worth the way it weighs him down. And definitely learns that carrying it alone is not the way to do things. Because he SEES Leonardo. He sees his skilled, bright star of a friend isolated and thinking he is own worst enemy, and Usagi understands that’s what honor, what pride, and the shame that accompanies it can do to someone, what it did to him. And so Usagi tries to keep this lesson in mind going forward, and hopefully, eventually teaches it in full one day to Leo. And look if you still want Usagi to be basically the same age as Leo sure okay fine do whatever. I think that's a perfectly valid interpretation of his character in 2k3, BUT I personally think the gap is more interesting. I still think they should be adults before anything official happens but. Still. Four to five years isn't that long of a time and it's not like they're gonna get the same cultural references anyway *shrug* Overall! Really cool video! I have some other minor nitpicks but like. Super cool to see something like that about my silly rabbit turtle ship. This fandom is super cool and I love how passionate you all about these two goobers. c:

Oohhh that video

Ngl as happy as I am that there's a nearly 50 minute long analysis vid abt Leosagi, getting the love n recognition it deserves and it has really good points calling out new rise fans who don't know how to tag or differentiate between two characters (miyamoto and yuichi).... it kinda felt like it got a bit too caught up on age discourse. It makes such validating takes but it kinda fumbles on others and it's a sorta,, yeah 😬

I mean! I think I am familiar enough with the Age Discourse by now that I should be fine but we shall see once I have listened/watched the whole thing

[hopeaterart]

What do you mean you think Splinter is an abusive parent. I'm gonna kill you.

[wow-its-me]

the reason TMNT 2012 and Rise are so hard to compare is that they're entirely different genres. Yes, they're both aimed at children but at its core 2012 is a drama, and in later seasons, horror.

While Rise can get pretty intense, its a comedy.

I guess that's why I hate that there's so much "which is better" discourse

neither is "better" they're just different, like whichever one you like

I guess that's a big reason I've got into TMNT so much in the past few weeks

It truly has something for everyone, in every genre, and for every age demographic

[jadethest0ne]

How do you feel about Leosagi?

TL;DR - It's not for me. I tend to not like romance/shipping. There is very little case for it in canon, and in fandom I don't like it when a character is utilized only for romantic/shipping purposes, which Usagi often is.

Read below the page break for details:

I tend to not be involved in shipping discourse, and most of the time I do not enjoy romance, whether it be in fandoms or in general media. I especially do not like it when there seems to be no evidence for the romance involved other than the creator wanting the characters to be romantic and deciding from the get-go who winds up with whom without the proper set-up or chemistry.

When it comes to fan ships, the greater the ratio between the amount of a certain ship that I see in a fandom and the amount of actual romantic moments shown in the source media there is, the greater the annoyance I have for seeing said ship.

Usagi doesn't appear a whole heck of a lot in TMNT as a whole. He's there in maybe a handful of episodes at most. Whenever he does appear he is either a much older adult and/or has rather equal screentime with all the turtles. The most Leo-Usagi interactions that can be seen in the franchise is in 2003. Usagi's age in that version is also dubious (but it can be argued either way, and I'm not gonna police a gray area like that). Regardless, their interactions are very obviously not romantic. So, for the canon, there doesn't seem much going for them there.

So this very much is a case of the fandom largely pushing the two swordsmen together. And that's where my initial problem with romance is - I don't like it when a character is created/utilized purely for romantic purposes. This is essentially what Leosagi is (and it's also why I tend to dislike a lot of OCs created purposefully to ship with a canon character). To me that's just bad writing, because you are deciding on the result of the relationship before actually putting the work in to create the romantic dynamic. It feels like the equivalent of a kid smacking their dolls together and saying "kiss". But I digress.

Usagi has his own backstory, his own character, and his own comic. It is a disservice to his character and to the comic that he comes from to essentially ignore that just for romance. Sometimes I get the feeling that folks don't even know that the comic Usagi Yojimbo exists, nor the fact that it is as old as TMNT and has its own separate storyline. I highly doubt most of those shipping Leosagi have actually read them.

Truth be told, I have been getting more and more annoyed at the ship the more and more I see it, because of the above reasons. To be clear, if you want to ship them, that's not my call; do whatever you want. It's just really not for me.