#this post is for both cis people and transmascs to be clear

[velvetvexations]

my personal take on "antigonism" is that it's entirely what you make of it. which is to say, i agreed with your post explaining why you felt such a term was necessary, and i do think this mentality of "most of us are normal about each other" and simply assuming we understand each other's experiences by virtue of being trans is reinventing artificial gender solidarity between cis people ("bros before hoes", "girl's girl") but superimposed onto trans people. which can be particularly contentious, given that we're an extremely traumatized bunch with a lot of baggage and massively diverging perspectives on all kinds of things. relating to each other outside of conventional gender relations means we have to put in that much more work to bridge the gaps between us, because we can no longer rely on the common assumptions made about men and women to carry our interactions, if that makes sense.

i do think a whole word for transfem-to-transmasc solidarity does toe a line between being unnecessarily inflammatory and conditionally useful. i'm genuinely glad for the people who felt seen and appreciated by the fact that a transfem made so explicit her stance on intracommunity issues. i'm also sympathetic to the people who feel put-off by such a word. when does allyship become chauvinistic? there is no word for a non-misogynistic man to signal to women that he is explicitly anti-antifeminist, for example. do we need one? i think a vast majority would say no, on account of simply stating he believes in feminist principles to suffice. so i'm wondering what specifically the push was for you to coin a word around tfem4tmasc solidarity, because while i do think trans people as a whole need to take significantly more initiative about rooting out transmisogyny and transandrophobia both, i'm not quite clear on what could signal more clearly a transfem's stance on intracommunity dialogue than just saying "i believe in transandrophobia and condemn all radfems". all feminism, transfeminism included, has had their malicious actors-- the existence of transradfems isn't really anything noteworthy as far as the broader feminist conversations go.

i hope this doesnt come across as confrontational because i think the people who found comfort in the fact that you are willing to go that far for them is truly heartwarming. i just don't want to see us splinter further into microfactions over something like one person coining one maybe-overenthusiastic word on the internet

Sincerely, there is a word for men who are anti-anti-feminist, though, they're feminists. Granted, self-identified "feminist" men have somewhat of a negative stereotype associated to them, but still, feminist men are feminists.

One of the biggest reasons I think a term would be useful is because so many people feel unsafe in the trans community because of trans radical feminism right now that it can help them relax a lot when they see a trans woman identifies as such. Just reminding people with assurances that most trans women are Normal doesn't really help that when they keep running into ones who aren't over and over.

TRFs are aggressive about this stuff. Seriously, every single day, post after post, their primary form of activism is crying about TMEs stealing kinks and liking a children's toy too much. I feel strongly that should be countered. Even if they aren't the majority, they sure as hell act like it and repeat how great it is that every single trans woman except velvetvexations alone agrees with them.

To be absolutely clear, I do not think I'm the only non-weird trans woman! That is just literally what they say about me! They may be the minority now but that frog is boiling.

IRL transmascs are forced out of spaces and talked over when they're let in because mascuwinity is scawy, No doubt transfems have similar problems because some spaces are TERF-y, but that problem is exacerbated when social media is filled with TRF rhetoric because it gets drilled into people's heads they need to be worried about that, and I don't think "touch grass" is a good response to that.

Hell, what if someone touches grass and then they do happen to end up having people be transandrophobic/exorsexist/intersexist/etc. to them? "Oh, well, that didn't count, try again somewhere else, I prommy that's not Normal."

It's all about volume. I feel very, very strongly that volume is necessary here, to combat the feeling that that radical feminism is around every corner and help people feel at ease and know trans women are with them.

[lycandrophile]

hey i know your post about your mom was mostly just a personal vent, but i have to say, do you realize that also happens with trans girls and their fathers? literally happened to one of my friends. i’m not trying to downplay your experience or something but i found it strange that you seem to think this is something that only affects transmascs

i have one question for you: so fucking what?

i don’t doubt that trans girls have experienced similar things and yeah, that’s bad too, but what the fuck does that have to do with me and the specific things i’m facing as a result of being a trans man? i never said “look at this thing that happens to ONLY trans men and NO ONE ELSE,” i just said “hey, isn’t this thing that happens to a lot of trans men, including myself, fucked up?”

i would also like to point out that what you’re talking about is in fact a different (albeit similar) thing. the way cis people treat trans people can differ dramatically based on the cis person’s gender because their commitment to gender roles is, like, a major part of problem. the specific way a cis mother reacts to her trans son’s transition is often going to be very distinct, while a cis father will likely respond to his trans daughter in a different but equally distinct way.

what i’m talking about is a very specific kind of ownership and control and self-victimization and total lack of boundaries masquerading as love and care and maternal concern that cis women (i would argue white cis women in particular) project onto their transmasc kids when we do literally anything to our bodies. i’m talking about a phenomenon which is closely related to the way moms often pass eating disorders onto their daughters (or children they view as daughters) because they see a body that looks something like theirs and project all of their insecurities and ideals onto it. i’m talking about a form of parental transphobia and projection that’s specific to the dynamic of a cis mother and her child who was “supposed to” be her daughter.

if you’ve never felt that, you’re not even remotely qualified to tell me shit about how i should be talking about that experience, and if you couldn’t recognize that experience when you read my post, i’m guessing you probably haven’t experienced it because the replies to that post made it very clear to me that anyone who has experienced it firsthand immediately knew exactly what i meant.

like, yeah, cis dads also project onto their trans daughters, but are they likely to have a reaction like running away with actual tears streaming down their face? do you expect them to passive aggressively make comments about how sad their kid’s transition makes them, how it’s such a difficult emotional time, how it’s so tragic because their kid’s body was so beautiful before? do you think their go-to transphobic reaction will be weaponizing their emotions? i’m sure there are some dads out there who are like that, but i think we can agree they’re in the minority because that’s not how cis men are taught to react and parents like this tend to be pretty damn committed to following the gender roles they were taught.

and even if i’m wrong and our experiences are exactly the same, let me reiterate that i never said this was an experience exclusive to trans men. all i said is that it happens to us. that’s just a statement of objective fact.

this started in my life when i got my hair cut short for the first time almost a decade ago and it has not stopped since. i’ve watched my mom cry over me changing my name and respond to being asked if my happiness matters more to her than my name by saying “i care about both”, i’ve watched her melt down in a mall over me getting a suit for prom and give me the silent treatment for days after, i’ve heard her plead with me to stop t because it “looks unnatural” and she’s just so “concerned for my health”, i’ve watched her stare at me post-op and say “my poor baby” over and over like she’s looking at my corpse in a casket. i’ve watched her turn herself into the victim of every single aspect of my transition. i’ve had to live with this for 9 years and spent the early years of the pandemic literally locked in a house with it. this has been my entire adolescent and adult life, and the question of if i’ll have to cut her off someday (and maybe never see my cat or my little cousins who i love more than anything in the world ever again as a result) haunts me every single day.

who the fuck are you to tell me how to talk about that?

[doberbutts]

one thing to make clear is that from what ive seen people aren't saying transmascs are claiming transmisogyny doesnt exist, but kind of the opposite? as in, transmascs are trying to co-opt specific experiences transfems go through when they dont have that same lived experience, and thus cant offer as meaningful insight. this is basically the crux of the whole tme/tma discourse, though i think it'd be easily resolved if we were just allowed to have our own language to talk about our experiences

Oh there's absolutely people saying we think transmisogyny doesn't exist literally right now in the tag.

But you're also right that there's also people saying that somehow by discussing our problems, we're somehow stealing from trans fem discussions about theirs.

I don't really follow the logic of this to be perfectly honest. I think there is very little that trans fems experience that doesn't either have an equivalent experience for trans mascs or that trans mascs don't experience something also terrible in its stead, just like I think that of the other way around: there's very little that trans mascs experience that trans fems don't have an equivalent or equally terrible experience for. I think that is the nature of us both being affected by the specific intersection of transphobia and misogyny, just gendered in specific ways to hurt us as individuals.

Pretty much any post I've seen on this matter has made a lot of assumptions one way or the other that completely ignore the lived reality of both trans mascs and trans fems, and it's very frustrating to try and engage with this problem because it feels more like people dedicated to screaming at each other than anything really particularly productive.

I also think it is impossible to be exempt from oppression. Not being the target doesn't mean the bullet can't hit you if the shooter can't aim for shit.

And it's genuinely WEIRD to me that trans mascs are talking about suicide and rape statistics, medical gatekeeping, rejection from social groups upon coming out, politicians making laws targeting their ability to transition, erasure and also weaponization of trans pregnancy, resources for the most vulnerable of us requiring detransition at minimum for entry if we're allowed in at all, the rates of violence from domestic partners and family members, struggles with male beauty standards and eating disorders... all stuff stemming from transphobic cishet society and the patriarchy... and somehow we're stealing from trans fems or blaming trans fems for the shit that 99% of the time is lived experience coming from being targeted by fucking cis people in the first place.

Like, how is me talking about getting beaten up while being called a tranny and a heshe and getting pantsed and groped to "prove" my status as a girl due to being incredibly GNC and also intersex prior to figuring out that I'm trans co-opting anything from anyone? I'm talking about something that happened *to me*. It wasn't trans women who sent me home with bruises and scars every day, it was my shitty cishet classmates and their shitty cishet older siblings in an ultra-conservative environment. I don't think trans fems are at fault for what happened to me at all? I just don't like to be told that I'm "victimized myself" by talking about my very real trauma as a kid by someone who isn't even a trans fem claiming to be defending trans fems on my posts about it.

[blubushie]

in my experience, a majority of effeminate men with high pitched voices or stereotypically girly mannerisms are in fact straight, it's just that harmful stereotypes about queer men continue to persist. not to mention the masculinity that gay men (like bears for example) exhude is either overlooked because they are ''straight passing'' or it's demonized even in more progressive communities.

If you go back through my asks tag to about a week ago you'll find a post where I discussed what it was like for me, a very masculine intersex bisexual/gay man, and a very masculine FTM bear at a queer event we showed up to.

Cuz I'll tell you. Weren't fun. He almost left because of how shittily they treated him—especially the younger transmascs—for his masculinity and 100% passing for cis. Both of us was demonised but him, bearded and tall and fat and hairy and balding, got the worst of it by far.

The queer community resents masculinity, end of. Even if you're an FTM you're resented unless you're putting on the uwu softboy aesthetic. This is also why there's so much push to convince transmascs not to go on testosterone—"you'll get hairy" "you'll be ugly" "it'll make you mean". This community hates men and masculinity and DESPERATELY doesn't want trans men to actually transition or look like cis men.

Also babyqueers ignore the fact that like 90% of queer stereotypes are stereotypes put on us a century ago by non-queer people. They need to ask themselves if gay men are by default effeminate or if the only gay men heteronormative society could identify AND PUNISH for being gay were the effeminate types who made it very clear what they were. The cowboy or businessman in a suit or mechanic or what have you, the masculine men, passed for straight so nobody knew they were gay. How are you gonna stereotype something you don't even know exists?

So of course all gays must be effeminate, because those are the only gays the people making those stereotypes SAW AS GAY.

[woomycritiques543]

https://twitter.com/NazFX_Studios/status/1199643032292749312?t=1zGGNfvZkOKvFd0ItADX7Q&s=19

Vivziepop recently made a Collab with NazFX on Twitter who's releasing a Loona remake tomorrow. It appears she has collabed with this person twice? In the link I'm sending is a video of a white Alastor plush. My favorite character in the Hazbin Hotel series is whitewashed to oblivion again! Like WTF, Look at him? Why is he so white 😭? WHY IS HE STILL BEING PORTRAYED AS A NON BLACK CHARACTER? First it was Sallie May that was overly sexualized for being a trans woman which insulted the community and got a lot of backlash, then making another transmasc character Cis which got more backlash and now we're pushing for anti black, white Alastor! I encourage others not to buy from Viv or get the Loona plush to pocket her pockets because she's anti black and is absolutely terrible at portraying black characters, characters with different ethnic backgrounds in general or just LGBT characters. Vivziepop is not a spectacular person with great ideas. She can't represent characters period!

This is "OOAK." Not a collab. It's fanmade.

I get your concern, but please provide clear evidence before making accusations like this. Though yes... Vivziepop does whitewash him still, in fact, she made him lighter after the backlash about the Vodou representation, something fans and non-fans alike were disgusted by her doing this kind of anti-black behavior, and kept the symobols in the episode- just more hidden now.

Look at Vortex, look at how this character is drawn, look at how the muscles are emphasized while the white muscular characters are drawn otherwise normally or with Ozzie, have skinny arms.

Look at how they drew the white muscular characters and their anatomy compared to Vortex and try to tell me that there was "no anti-blackness" involved here. The white men have even anatomy, while for Vortex, it's emphasized to hell and back, and he's given almost no sympathy for being a slave, while Loona is multiple times just because she's white coded despite being Hell's equivalent to how black people were/are treated. Yet for Vortex, he's not sympathized with, even in his debut, and is only animated to "look intimidating" and to be violent while also having not a single black person influencing his writing. He's just meant to be the "token strong black man" while Coco and the rest of the background characters are put their for brownie points while we get no respect from these writers underneath this narrative. It's hypocritical, selfish, and downright racially insensitive. These stereotypes are far from "harmless", especially today with the newest Helluva Boss episode and how it relates to the harmful stigma against drag queens.

The fetishization of trans, drag, and black lives hurts us.

These stereotypes are not "comedy", they're reputational harm.

-while the other black characters are whitewashed and given names like "Coco" based on their skin. You can actually tell that the direction of this show had not a single black say on these shows, at all.

HB also made over half of their main poc characters succubi as an excuse to fetishize us. It's just hentai for minority fetishists, that's it, the show is just what Americans think hentai is, but worse, since it includes all misrepresentation of women from hentai along with ableism, racism, homophobia, and blatant transphobia from the writers being put into the tones and dialouge of the scenes.

The double standards need to stop. There is no such thing as a "good" dergogatory stereotype. Black stereotyping and fetishization is equally as harmful as blackface. This goes for Brandon Rodgers as well. Both him and Vivziepop have gotten away with racial stereotypes and sexism for far too long. There needs to be at least one black say behind this writing. This needs to stop.

Also look at the anniversary posts on Twitter:

Not a single black person in sight. I want to be excited by this show so badly due to the nice animation, cool world ideas (Hell with different demon species- how cool is that?!) and the cool looking bg characters but the creators keep ruining it with active bigotry.

So you're right about that one... 💀

Vivienne is speedrunning her own cancellation now...

-and it's just sad to watch. All she had to do was apologize for how she misrepresented multiple minority groups and let her stans attack us, none of this discourse needed to happen smh.

If racism and all around bigotry is "not ok" with Oye Primos. It's "not ok" with how Helluva Boss treats minorities as well. People need to stop having double standards just because one creator benefits their fan content more than the other. To the HB tag, if you like any of Vivziepop's shows, cool, but dont pretend to support us while denying how much bigotry the creators have just because you want more of Vivziepop's cartoon softcore porn.

Racism and queerphobia should not be normalized with any writer.

Stop the hypocrisy!

[soaplantro]

(i was gonna comment this on your exorsexism post but the comment got too long lol)

i think the word itself hasn't caught on much yet but i do genuinely believe that it's a real form of oppression separate from transmisogyny, like there's a very clear difference between how you're treated if you're a trans woman vs a transfem non-binary person (and same goes for trans man vs transmasc non-binary person)

and like, there's also a very clear difference between how you're treated if you're a cis woman vs a non-transmasc non-binary person who was afab (idk the best way to word this, but hopefully you get what i mean)

on top of that, there's definitely a difference between how you're treated if you're a non-transmasc non-binary person who was afab vs a transfem non-binary person, that's the difference between being tme and tma

so when you experience both transmisogyny and exorsexism it may be hard to separate them both, but society does place transfem enbies (at least slightly) below trans women, like how society places non-transmasc enbies afab below cis women (while not putting them in the same category as trans men)

think about how like, many transfems have to hide the "non-binary" parts of themselves just to be taken seriously by society, many enbies have to basically misgender themselves in places like healthcare just to get stuff like hrt and surgeries, and there have been so many cases of medical professionals denying (openly) non-binary people care because they basically admit that they straight up just don't treat non-binary trans people (while still accepting and treating binary trans people)

and many binary trans people do actually weaponise the little privilege they have against non-binary trans people, like with the whole "i'm a normal trans, not like those they/thems" thing that certain trans people love to pull, and even cis people admit this "i accept trans people as long as they fit into my image of what a perfect trans person is like" which almost never includes non-binary people ever

and there's just the fact that "non-binary" just doesn't even exist in most people's heads, people only ever use "they" when they want to degender you, but the moment your pronounds are actually they/them they'll either always misgender you as he/him or she/her, and if you're transfem and you don't use she/her at all, people will just use that as an excuse to call you he/him instead (when they're perfectly fine not using he/him for binary trans women, this is something i've seen happen myself) or just use she/her and make you feel guilty for being uncomfortable with it (this is something all enbies who are misgendered as she/her experience, but if you're tma it's definitely worse)

in fact, even if you align more with womanhood while still being non-binary (and using she/they or they/she for example) you can experience this.. i knew a transfem who used she/they pronounds but only ever said her pronounds are she/her to certain people because (in their exact words):

"i relate more to demigirls than cis women but tell that to cis people when talking about being transgender they just load the ammo you give them"

and also:

"im she/they and have been a demigirl forever, but a lot of times my cis girl friends will make uncomfortable overly binary comments about my body" "and I don't say anything because they're seeing me as a girl but it's uncomfortable"

i think that's a perfect example of what it's like to experience both transmisogyny and exorsexism at the same time.. society places such strict standards of femininity on tma people that even showing a hint of being non-binary is frowned upon, this is something non-binary people who were afab experience too, but being tma makes it worse!

that isn't to say that binary trans people aren't hurt by this at all, these strict standards of femininity also hurt trans women, but the way it targets and isolates transfem enbies specifically (and forces them into the closet in places where trans women can be open about their gender) makes it exorsexist too, at least imo it does

Interesting! Thanks for your input.

[t4tails]

idk to be clear I agree with you and I hate the idea of like. being someone who sends anything close to "anon hate" but like. I also get if you don't want to answer this since one anon often opens the floodgates to more. But like- I agree with you but I also think, as another transmasc, there is a unique position you're put in as between both states that,,, makes me understand why people want a new word??? I don't think calling it transphobia is wrong, but like I do wish there was sometimes a shorthand for some of the specific ways I've been isolated from femininity but also not "a real man" that have to do with being transmasc. I am going to be thinking over your post for a long while bc I think it is really smart and makes me think abt the way trans men are impacted by misogyny and transphobia, but like. it is a unique way of being affected by both I think?? It feels sometimes like lumping that into a blanket category of transphobia diminishes the nuances of transmasc identity. then again, the kind of ppl who use transandrophobia tend to be lame fucking transmisogynists so like I will gladly be on the side of just calling it transphobia if it means not playing directly into transmisogyny and, half the time, just full out misogyny since their attitude towards women as a whole reveals itself pretty quickly.

i guess my problem is just WHY do we need a new word? transmisogyny is something tangible that has specific situations in regards to it. transandrophobia does not have those. notice that all the examples i gave wrt trans mens experiences with transphobia and misogyny are not unique. we dont really have any specific scenarios. the closest they ever get to being interconnected experiences is being misgendered which leads into misogyny. a new word would just divide us from our allies in these situations - other trans people experience the misgendering. women in general (both trans and cis) experience the policing of bodies, not being taken seriously, etc. id be more open to a new word if you could name a specific instance of trans men as a group experiencing something unique (that isnt just all of these instances put together lol. obviously different experiences added together creates a unique group, thats why the idea of trans men exists in the first place, but continuing with my transmisogyny false parallel, trans fems can typically point out times they have been subject to specifically misogyny, not being taken seriously due to presenting as a woman etc, transphobia, not being accepted by others like parents etc, AND transmisogyny, see discourse around "traps" etc. obvs ima trans man so if any trans women want to chime in here explaining what i mean thatd be great)

[jasontoddisrightfuckyou]

okay this is something that's been bothering me for a very long time but I've struggled to put words to it. Until just now.

I hate how often sexualisation of men, or male sexiness or male sexuality is often just sexualised male feminisation.

Now obviously femine and masculine is different and not the same as being a woman or being a man, but for the sake of this post I'll go by the common definition of masculinity vs feminity which is as following:

Feminity: feminity usually refers to the stereotypical physical or cultural traits and expectations of a cis woman

Masculinity: masculinity usually refers to the stereotypical physical and cultural traits and expectations of a cis man

Now, personally I think feminity/masculinity refers more to a aesthetic and certain way of being than it does gender, but it is still undeniably contacted to gender. Which makes the fact that Male Sexiness often involving or equaling male feminisation even more disturbing. its not just a common fetish. it's heteronormative. it's misogynistic. it's misandric. I will elaborate on why bellow.

Feminisation being equalled to sexualisation and male sexiness involving or being equalled to feminisation is something I specifically see within mlm content. In fact, the only time I see masculinity consistently being sexualised is in m/f (and often straight) media.

it's often in mlm content you see men dressed up in lingerie with feminine design, in heels, or "maid outfits". its in mlm content you see men bekng out in feminine clothing or traditionally female roles, as a way to portray them as sexy. In both fanfiction or original writing, a man's attraction to another man is often about his ass (which is not necessarily a feminine trait) or his hips. his slim waist. his large pectorals (which are often referred to as tits or boobs or breasts)

Very rarely do I see physical attraction towards men talking about anything stereotypically masculine outside of musculature. Why is it never about someone's broad shoulders, their hairyness, the bulge in their pants, their largeness.

At most, I see mentions of their large muscles and washboard abs. Which is a ridiculous beauty and bosy standard put upon men, but that's a different discussion.

That a men is only considered sexy to the point of sexualisation within mlm or queer media is not only a problem, but indicates deeper issues. Like I said heteronormativity. misogyny and misandry.

and here I'll explain why, in case it is not clear.

Heteronormative: It pushes masculine and feminine, male and female roles and dynamics onto a mlm couple, forcing them into a falsisfied and fake heterosexual dynamic

Misogyny: oversexualising of feminine traits or roles. Equaling and resucing feminity and anything stereotypically female to sexiness

Misandry: Equaling and reducing sexiness to feminity and anything stereotypically female. Implies and pushes the idea than masculinity cannot be or isn't sexy.

As a transmasc agender person it fills me with great dysphoria to see men's pectorals always being referred to as tits or boobs or breasts. The focus, fascination or sexualisation of big and lushus pectorals have never bothered me, but the trend of calling them tits or boobs do. Same when people cat like they function like boobs. Like a push up bra creating cleavage, or muscular pectorals requiring a bra to support them. Neither of which is true. Pectorals enlarged due to fat, aka Man-boobs (commonly referred to as moobs) are different, and could both require a bra to help support the extra weight on the chest, and as they consist of fat, not hard muscle, they could be pushed up by a push-up bras. Yet they do not get referred to as tits, boobs, nor do people talk about moobs in bras. This is also an example of fat phobia and the ridiculous body and beauty standards for men, but I'm getting of topic. My point about moobs is that in cases where a bra would be physically possible or serve a practical purpose, they are not included. But when it comes to large pecs being of muscle they will be used as to enhance the sexiness, through feminising the person and the body part. Meaning the bra - and the subsequent feminisation - is only attarctive and wanted when it can be used to sexualise.

And I am. so tired of this trend. I am all for men or masc presenting people wearing skirts, heels, make up, or lingere. but when they wear them, why not let them remain masculine. Let men and masculine people wear a skirt in a masculine way. (Have you seen Scots in kilts?? it's definitely possible for a man or masc person to look both sexy and masculine in skirt like clothing) Or why not try removing any stereotypical feminine stuff altogether? Sexualised rugged (non-washboard ab'd with cut muscles) men with chest hair and hairy arms and legs, stubble and a visible bulge. Talk about mlm physical attraction regarding a bulky torso and thick thighs. a visible bulge and a hot ass. Emphasise those broad shoulders, narrow hips and square jaw

let men be sexy for being masculine. let masculinity be sexy.

don't equal sexiness to femininity. dont equal feminity to sexiness. it's time we sexualise masculinity

edit: this is not to say that the feminisation of med or sexualisation of feminity in men is inherently bad or forbidden. I'm not trying to demonise anyone or what they are into. Explore what you like, create what you're into. I'm just trying to bring up an issue I've seen become more normal and want to bring it up to talk about it and discuss it. if you are a femboy, are into femboys or just like them please know this is not an attack on you. I am just bringing up my own experience and how I wish masculinity was more celebrated and sexualised for being masculine, as well as wishing for more content of men and masc people wearing traditional feminine stuff and STILL be masculine, or even wear it in a masculine way. or just men and masc people wearing traditional feminine things without it being sexualised

[velvetvexations]

For two, I want talk about TRANSMISOGYNY to actually get taken seriously. I want to talk about how so many stereotypes of trans people as a whole come from shitty caricatures of trans women that THEMSELVES come from shitty caricatures of both "perverted" men AND "hysterical" cis women. I want to talk about how everything that is transandrophobic has a transmisogynistic flip side and vice versa. I want to talk about tokenism and the superficial support that vanishes the moment a trans woman isn't the "positive" caricature people made her out to be - and how the trans-specific version of that is only one example of a template that was codified against trans women but oh boy does it get applied to all trans people, see previous points. I want to discuss these things and have them taken seriously, WITHOUT people jumping on it as an excuse to just shit on transmascs and "theyfabs" and otherwise just take the path of least resistance by taking it out on another scapegoat minority. And I especially hate it, because the more I think about it, I'm pretty sure a lot of tumblr's most homophobic memes (e.g., twink (derogatory)) really did solidify right around the time that "homophobia" was damned near only being used to shut down ace people, and holy shit I do not want people to use this environment to do THAT.

I really feel the same way. I almost always have my hopes dashed when I see a really good post about transfem issues I really relate to and then it turns out the OP fucking sucks.

Reblog 5 posts about trans women every time I reblog one about trans men or else I'm bad If I make a post about my own problems, I have to be incredibly clear about how privileged I am and how other people have it worse or else I'm bad If I see a post that's transmisogynistic, I have to actively argue with the OP or else I'm some privileged dude doing nothing with my power and so I'm bad I have to br 100% clear about what my stance is on transcourse in the tags of every post or else I'll make trans women feel unsafe and so I'm bad It goes on and on. Eventually, I made up so many rules that I had to get off the internet bc every time I wanted to post ot reblog something I'd have to compulsively examine the post for days, search through the OP's entire blog, etc etc etc. It sucked! Glad I'm getting treatment! I wanna be clear though that I'm not blaming trans people of any kind for my. LOL! Caught myself!! Caught myself with "having to be 100% clear or else I'm unsafe" compulsion! Anyways, thanks for listening. I'm wondering if any other queer with moral ocd have had discourse affect them like this! 🤔

I'm sorry anon, I promise you don't have to live your life like that. You're not a bad person.

Ehhhhh. They are all those things, but I don't think most of them are former members of or directly sympathetic to 4chan culture. It's just that trans women are the in-group and 4chan happens to be where trans women who used to be (more obviously) problematic hung out the way that's TERFism for transmascs.

I haven't! A lot of things like that are triggering me in one way or another, either because it discusses hate crimes or just the general crushing opposition we face, but I like to read what I can make it through.

Happy to provide, anon. <3

[roachliquid]

tl;dr: Being "uncomfortable" with a trans woman's sexual expression is usually just transmisogyny.

(Before you read this, please take note that this is NOT a post about sexual abuse. I am not talking about people whose sexual behaviors cause actual harm to others, but those who are often mistakenly deemed harmful, due to their identity and/or the kind of behaviors in question.)

Something I've had to unlearn as a trans man is the idea that I, or trans people at large, will benefit in some way by my acting "respectable" - I.E. not acting overly sexual, paying homage to the gender essentialism of our society at large, basically trying to present myself as someone who is not a "deviant" or threat.

Now, I don't mean that I tried to make myself personally conform to rigid gender expectations. In fact, I've always tried to be pretty comfortable defying those, and refusing to let cis people determine what my gender should look like. What I mean is, I felt uncomfortable about expressing the sides of me that could be considered 'deviant'. Whether that be kinks, unconventional ideas about the nature of gender and its relationship to people's bodies, or even just... admitting I had a sex drive. It felt like safety to me. Like I was protecting myself from being judged as a creep or a pervert.

In a sense that was true... but it was also a very maladaptive approach to my life. Because I would see other trans people (particularly trans women) and my immediate reaction would be discomfort. People could express their tastes with the same frankness that a cishet man feels comfortable wielding about his love of women's bodies, and because the taste itself was less than mainstream - or even because the person expressing the opinion was a trans woman - I would think "yeah, that's too much for me". And I would just kinda... turn away from it. Retreat to the safe zone of minimal expression, where I tried not to say anything that could be construed as too deviant, or even worse, as transphobic (because it didn't fit the mainstream, rigid definitions of what a trans person should look like).

And I'm not saying that every case of this was a horrible act on my part. Having your own personal preferences, and setting boundaries around them, is relatively benign as far as behaviors go. But it stemmed from a genuinely unhealthy mindset, which is that it was my responsibility as a vulnerable person not to give others an opportunity to attack. And the fact that I would see a trans woman being open about her sexuality, or expressing that sexuality in a way that was less than 100% cisnormative, and that would immediately ping my "too much" radar? That was transmisogyny, pure and simple.

This is a problem that I see in a lot of TME (transmisogyny exempt) people, both cis and trans. Occasionally TMA (transmisogyny affected) people as well, but TMEs are absolutely more prone to it. And it's not just a relatively harmless thought crime - it's an internalization of a belief that exists specifically to punish and harm trans people, especially trans women and those who are considered trans woman-adjacent.

You see, TMA people are always considered "deviant". No matter what they do, they're labeled as predatory, perverted, degenerate if you will. It's not something that they can escape, no matter how respectable they act. A trans woman (for example) who enters into a monogamous heterosexual marriage with a cisgender man will be seen as just as gross and dangerous as a trans lesbian who wears her kinks on her sleeve.

Now, I'm not saying that it's never reasonable for a trans person to minimize an aspect of themselves that the mainstream won't like in order to keep themselves safe. Sometimes that's just something you have to do, whether it's going stealth or pretending that you're not into gay dragon fatfurs. This isn't about that.

But when you make being "not weird" your entire identity, we have a problem. And if you start lecturing other trans people on how embracing their strangeness is "inappropriate", "validating transphobes' worst fears", or, so help me, fucking "fetishizing trans people's bodies", you are not helping. You are making the problem worse, and you are throwing every TMA person under the bus in the process.

We cannot do this. We CANNOT fall prey to the mindset that there is an actual line beyond which someone's preferences or behaviors are simply too strange to be acceptable. Because the people who fall on the "wrong" side of that line will always be those who are most vulnerable. People who cannot make themselves fit the standard you are creating, and will end up suffering because you made the decision to prioritize your own feelings of discomfort over their right to safety and respect.

[nothorses]

hey uh random question about a post i saw earlier- asking you this because you're more or less a reputable source but uh are trans mra an actual thing or closer to hyperbole. what I'm trying to say is i saw a post (by someone i won't reveal now because i don't wanna start shit up but i could tell you in another ask if you wanted to) that compared a post on discrimination men face in their daily lives (trans men weren't specified but op's url left no doubt about that) to MRA and was also tagged "#transandrodorks" so uh yeah !

asking cause i wanna hear both sides on this issue and all. the person who made that post has made more than a few iffy statements about trans men so yeah. my current stance is that transandrophobia is helpful in describing the specific oppression transmascs face, such as hard-to-access reproductive care

have a good time of day

If there are actual "trans MRAs", I haven't met them. I have, however, definitely been accused of being one!

A short list of things people have accused me of being a "trans MRA" for:

Saying male privilege was not designed to include trans men, and if it can, it excludes us.

Saying trans men, as a class, do not posses privilege on the basis of being trans men.

Saying trans men have higher rates of lifetime sexual assault and suicide than trans women do (a real statistic repeated across several individual studies) though trans women have higher rates of other forms of violence and marginalization.

Saying trans men experience discrimination that is unique to trans men.

Talking about Baeddels, just like, in general.

Using the word "transandrophobia".

Saying testosterone does not turn people into horrible monsters.

Talking about Joan of Arc's relationship to masculinity and the possibility of transness.

Defending trans women and discussing transmisogyny as a real issue that must be dealt with.

Some of it's been from transfemmes, and some of it's been from TERFs, but the vast majority of the people who have said this have been cis women.

That's not to say there aren't transmascs who make shitty arguments or say and do shitty things- aside from the fact that that's just true of any group, in general, I have also seen transmascs who get misogynistic or transmisogynystic in their arguments for the existence of transandrophobia.

But this isn't unique to us, either. Baeddelism is an entire movement built around transfems getting horribly transphobia toward both trans men and nonbinary people as a whole in their arguments for the existence of transmisogyny. Does that mean it doesn't exist? Does that mean all transfems who believe in transmisogyny are like this?

Obviously not.

There are always going to be people who take these things too far, who use real issues and useful concepts as bludgeons against groups that should be- and are- our allies.

We need to make it clear we don't condone that and we don't want to be associated with that, but we also can't be held responsible for that as an entire demographic. It's unfair to associate us with it anyway, despite the work we do to make our separation clear.

And I'd be super suspicious of anyone trying to discredit the concept of an entire marginalized group experiencing unique marginalization just because some of the voices in there might be, or are, using that concept the wrong way. Transmascs shouldn't have to be a flawless group of perfect individuals in order for any of us to be believed when we talk about our lived experiences.

[tyrannuspitch]

Okay, there's useful information in this post, but there's misleading stuff too, so I'm going to try and add some nuance.

First of all: Transandrophobia.

Transandrophobia is one word used to describe transphobia as experienced by trans men. You could describe the theory around it as "activism for trans men's rights" but it is not "Men's Rights Activism". MRAs are specifically antifeminists; they're not legitimately concerned with groups of men who actually lack some human rights (such as poor men, black men, gay men, or trans men), only with (re-)asserting patriarchal "rights" that they think have been lost to feminism.

Meanwhile, I've never met someone who uses the word transandrophobia who was not informed by and engaging with feminism. The word transandrophobia (and later variant transmascphobia, and even later, antitransmasculinity) was created specifically to get away from the word misandry and its MRA connotations - because, as trans men have been very clear, we're talking about a situation unique to trans men and transmascs which is not meant to imply anything about cis men, or trans women, or anyone else.

The major objection to transandrophobia, by and large, has always been: "but that implies cis men are oppressed for being men!" But it really doesn't have to.

Transandrophobia is not an "intersection" of transphobia and misandry any more than biphobia is an "intersection" of homophobia and heterophobia. It's something that arises ONLY when you are both trans and a man, just as biphobia arises ONLY when you are attracted to more than one gender. Or like how anti-effeminacy is not simply hatred of femininity, but hatred of femininity where it "doesn't belong"; and butchphobia is not hatred of hegemonic masculinity, but hatred of masculinity where it "doesn't belong".

Masculinity and manhood are not oppressed in and of themselves, but they can colour experiences of oppression. Just like how attraction to other genders is not oppressed in and of itself... but when you're also attracted to your own gender, it, again, colours your experience of oppression.

So, as it turns out, you can't talk about gender or queerphobia without talking about men sometimes. You can't talk about transphobia without talking about trans men sometimes. This is all most trans men are trying to do.

But people had a (fairly justified) kneejerk negative reaction to the use of "misandry" in, like, 2012 - and now everyone keeps perceiving alternatives as "disguises" for a secret MRA agenda rather than genuine corrections and improvements, and so the discourse gets poisoned and polarised over and over again.

Of course, there absolutely are trans men who hate trans women. And while i haven't personally seen it, I can absolutely believe that some might try to get trans women's blogs banned. But telling people to be cautious of ALL trans men who talk about transandrophobia is like telling people to be cautious of anyone who uses the word "biphobia" because some bi people are homophobic. It's just not representative of the actual situation.

Second of all: baeddels.

The word baeddel was first revived in the early 2010s as a reclamation and self-identifier for trans women. It was adopted by a niche group of transfeminists; they were not and are not the only people to use it, but they were associated strongly enough that it became a byname for their politics. When people use it now, they're saying you have similar views to this group - views which include total transfem separatism (ie, discouraging members from interacting with any other genders, even cis women and other trans people, as far as possible); extremely binary (and anti-nonbinary) framings of the world; treating binary womanhood as a moral obligation; and a toxic, pessimistic atmosphere that might these days be called "doomerism". This group has been described as a cult, including by ex-members.*

So calling people baeddels is a pretty heavy thing - but it's not really the same as using a modern slur. It was a slur, once, (although its range might have wider than "trans woman" - it might equally have referred to gay, GNC, or intersex people - historical categories are vague and don't always align with modern ones!), but it's not one now. No-one grew up getting called this; no-one gets it shouted at them on the street or graffitied on their house. No-one living remembers a time when this happened. It's primarily a political term now, part of niche internet trans discourse.

And to be clear- throwing the word around might very well still be transmisogynistic! You should be very cautious who you compare to members of an alleged cult! But its roots are a little more complicated than a lot of people know.

*Unfortunately, most compilations of testimony/sources on this subject include a lot of dead links, as people delete their blogs, regret becoming involved in the conversation, etc, so information is hard to track down. One thing that's still up is this history of the movement: https://medium.com/@greyson.not.horses/lets-talk-about-b%C3%A6ddels-a-comprehensive-retrospective-a59784bf311b

for those unaware

there's currently a massive wave of transmisogyny(specifically aimed at trans women, if i have to make that clear) that is composed of

staff banning multiple transfem users with no explanation and deleting every image they've ever posted with the claim that they violated TOS. this is goes from pictures of your face at different points of your transition to a silly meme you may have posted. the purpose is to wipe all evidence of your existence clean from tumblr.

terfs and transmisogynists (typically those who espouse that 'transandrophobia' or 'transmisandry' for the bolder transmisogynists out there; think of it like the trans edition of the men's rights activist movement) are currently teaming up to mass-report trans women on this site, which gives staff an excuse to ban a trans woman then refuse to explain why the trans woman in question was banned

terfs (and let's be real, transmisogynists also) are going to multiple trans peoples' ask inboxes to spread loose rumors about trans women; for instance, this post, which was aimed at a friend of mine, avery. this is being done with the intent of socially isolating specific trans women with the intent of causing lasting damage to our lives.

on top of all of this, the transmisogynists have revived a slur from the fucking middle ages, "Baeddel," specifically to use it on trans women. this is in the midst of a growing anti-transfem movement within the transmasc portion of the community.

as a trans woman, i have to ask all of you to be extremely careful about what action you take regarding asks you get spreading rumors about people. if the person that's being accused is a trans woman, what you've been sent is more than likely a lie, and almost 100% part of a targeted hate campaign. if you see someone posting under the transandrophobia or transmisandry tags in your feed, careful! you've got someone in your feed that really doesn't like trans women!

i would also advise turning off anons, as i have, whether you're a trans woman or not. hopefully needing to show their faces will mitigate their ability to harm us.

[cynicjovial]

I had written this letter for twitter originally but here it comes here too, for pride or whatev

alright, i guess i have gathered my thoughts a bit, although not all of them so uh. It's pride month. And In the last couple of weeks or so, I'vebeen thinking a lot about myself, and I'm the opposite of Marina (I don't know at all what I want and who I want to be) but one thing I'm sure? Sort of? I know of it? Oh this is going dogshit already Well, I'm trans! Well.... I wasn't keeping it a secret. But I never used that word to describe me. I guess I was afraid? I always tip-toed around the fact that I wasn't cis, but for some reason, I didnt want to tell myself. But hell, if someone asks you if you're cis and your first response is not "yeah" but "hmmmm mmwell hmmm i guess hmm kinda hmm i mean..." youre probably not! So yeah. I just want to say it clear and loud. I don't know if I will identify with the word trans or another one in the future, but it's time i look at myself in the mirror and say Girl, you are Definetly Not Cis. Like, at all.

Truth is, I've been suffering from dysphoria since I was in middle school. And I knew I was into women and not into men (at least cishetmen) since elementary school. But as some of you know, I never let myself explore my feelings. I came to my sexuality when I was 19. I bottled everything. I don't think it was fear at first.. But since I was 15, I had body disphoria, and no matter how much I was attracted by my body, I could tell something was off. And at around 21 I started bottling these feelings for real. This time I was really afraid. I was afraid of being transmasc? Why? I honestly don't know, this bitch is stupid. I would dread the moment thinking that id have to come out as transmasc despite me not wanting to being one, you know, something cis girls think a lot of the time. And cis girls also do a lot of google researches about ftm surgeries and hormones in the incognito tab. So yeah. I'm sitting here. I'm not really sure how I feel, but I don't feel like an absolute.

Will this be temporary? Maybe? Is this what feels better? Well, a bit better than before, so it's a step forward From now, I'll think of myself as a Bigender Lesbian. I accidentally clicked both gender buttons at the same time so now my gender took a fucking screenshot. My attraction has always been beyond the simple "woman" (quoting a trumblr post,  "“non-binary” means a thousand different things to a thousand different people and therefore anyone of any sexuality could theoretically be attracted to a non-binary person in some capacity.") but I expressed that already in the past, so i guess the new part here is just about the gender I still use she/them as pronoums for now, and I'm currently researching if I fit the criteria to ask for free T therapy (im kinda afraid to give my doctor more than one task at the time, since its more than a year that i want to be tested for autism and i don't want to disrupt that) But yeah. uuh.. I think I said everything I wanted to. Hi

[nightfoot]

So I’m not a historian, but I just finished posting my medieval AU fanfic that included a medieval trans character, so I thought I’d ramble a bit about some of the research I did prior to writing it.  There’s this idea that Western society believed in an absolute binary of men and women until Stonewall happened and introduced Western cis people to the concept of gender not being rigidly set in stone, but that’s just not the case.  So here’s a brief overview of some specific cases I found along the lines of “Medieval and early modern people were thinking about gender too.”

The first is the one I think about most often.  This is actually a little bit after the medieval period, in the 16th century, but still interesting.  There was a person in the little town of Vitry-le-Fran ois who lived as a man. He was married to a woman and worked as a weaver.  Tragically, his marriage lasted only 5 months before someone recognized him as “[birth name]” and he was tried and condemned (for the crime of using a dildo).  But, he was given the option to go back to wearing skirts and live as a respectable woman.  He rejected the offer, and chose to be hanged rather than live as a woman.

I just think about him a lot, and how much I wish he could come to the 21st century and see how the world has changed.  He is also the person I always think about when I see the claim that all trans men in history were just “women trying to live with more freedom.”  Because if it was only about trying to live a better life, then choosing any life at all would be better than death. 

The second story involves another person from France in 1601.  Thankfully, his chosen name was recorded - Marin began sleeping with a woman while they were both working as chambermaids in Rouen, but after a few weeks, he told her he was in fact a man, and proposed marriage.  Before their marriage, though, Marin was accused of sodomy for being a “woman” trying to marry another women.  However, he plead his case and asked for a medical examination, and after a genital exam, the doctor declared Marin had “a hidden but functional penis.”  I read this as him being intersex.  The court demanded he dress as a woman for 4 years in hope that the situation would clear up, but after those 4 years passed, he was allowed to go back to presenting as male, married his wife, and lived the rest of his life as a man.

This story is interesting because it demonstrated that people in 1601 were ready to accept “huh! sex and gender are complicated! I guess it is possible for someone to change from one thing to another!”

And the reason they accepted this is because of the “one sex model,” the idea that male and female are just two ends of a spectrum and all humans fall somewhere on that spectrum with the potential to shift position.  This model is not exactly correct, because they also believed that it had to do with body temperature and that if a woman’s body temperature raised too much she would spontaneously grow a penis, but it is very interesting that 400 years ago, academics realized that sex is much more complicated than “you’re either A or B” but in our enlightened 21st century, we have to argue about that again.

Cross-dressing saints are also common in hagiography.  One example is Joseph von Schönau, a celebrated monk who joined the abbey of Schönau in 1187 after a life of travel in Europe and the Middle East.  What’s interesting is that during his deathbed confession, when he came clean to the priest about all his other secrets and sins in life, he said nothing about his sex.

There is another story I recall that, for the life of me, I can’t find the source for now.  In that one, a saint lives his entire life in an abbey as a man. During his life, a local woman accused him of fathering her child.  He could have easily disproved the accusation by explaining that he didn’t have a penis, but instead accepted the child as his and accepted the shame and disdain from his fellow monks.  They only realized he couldn’t have been the father after his death. 

My next two stories are fictional:

The first is the 13th century French story Roman de Silence.  This is the story of a woman whose father needed a son to inherit, so when she was born, he decided to raise her as a boy.  Throughout the story, personifications of “Nature” and “Nurture” argue over which of them determines who a person is.  Throughout the story, Silence becomes a knight, captures Merlin in a prophecy twist (of the “no man can defeat Merlin” sort), reveals her sex in the end and marries a king.  I actually think it’s more interesting to read Silence as a trans woman, despite being what we today would “assign female.”  She was assigned male by her father, and grows up feeling conflicted about this.

Silence isn’t an example of a real life trans masc knight, but the story overall is exploring the question, “What exactly is it that makes someone a man vs a woman?”  This says to me that Medieval People Were Thinking About This Too, and the idea that man and woman could be more complicated than looking at a baby’s genitals has been around for a long, long time.

My favourite fictional story is Yde et Olive, another 13th century French romance.  This one tells the story of Yde, a princess being forced into a marriage she hates.  Rather than go through with it, they dress as a man and run away.  Over the course of Yde’s adventures, they learn how to fight with a sword, take down bandits, and end up as a knight in a foreign king’s court.  The king is so impressed with Yde that he arranges for them to marry his daughter, Olive.  Yde confesses to Olive that the marriage will never work because of his sex, but Olive says she doesn’t mind and will keep their secret, which, y’know, #Bi Princess.  But someone overheard the conversation! And now the king will have them put to death for same-sex relations! (even though... he’s the one who insisted they marry).  Yde prays to God for a miracle, and God responds by magically transforming Yde into a cis man.  The day is saved and Yde lives happily ever after as a man with his wife.  They have a son named Croissant.

My research mostly focused on transmasc stories, but I have to at least add the suggestion to read up on Choisy, an 18th century French transfem person.  She wrote a novel (Histoire) about a child who was raised as a girl with no idea that having a penis meant people would think she was a boy.  When her mother eventually tells her that she is “male,” she simply does not believe it.  She goes on to marry a Marquis, and realizes she must tell him that she is allegedly male, only for the Marquis to tell her that he is, in fact, "female.”  They go on to live happily ever after as a t4t couple.

Anyway, as I said, I am not a historian and this is not academically rigorous, but some interesting stories I came across while researching.  I wouldn’t say any of these suggest that trans people were common and accepted by broader society throughout history, but they do show that people over the centuries have been thinking about gender, what it means to be a man or woman, and how the line between those can be blurry.  This is far from being a 21st century exclusive discussion.

Unfortunately, hand-wringing hysteria about trans people is also nothing new, because I also came across several instances of medieval writers fretting about the idea of “men disguising themselves as women to sneak into convents and have sex with nuns.”  Truly, the world never changes. 

Sources:

Ferguson, Gary. "Early Modern Transitions: From Montaigne to Choisy." L'Esprit Créateur 53, no. 1 (2013): 145-57.

Hotchkiss, Valerie.  “Clothes Make the Man: Female Cross Dressing in Medieval Europe.” Garland Publishing, 1996.

[that-stone-butch]

What that doesnt even make sense (not talking about your gender assigned at birth and getting called a terf??). If anything terfs usually are p clear about their GAAB bc they think it's like inherent to their identity (both cis and trans). Often they'll ID as like [gender] [male/female].

Also "what is your GAAB" is the fake woke "what's in your pants" ... Isn't it. Like just because both parties are lgbt doesn't mean you can ask those questions! That's like. So weird!

also i hate hoe overused AFAB/AMAB is where ppl are wayyyy to comfy w it

*NUANCE ALERT* *NUANCE ALERT*

if you're reading this and have no reading comprehension, save us both the trouble and skip this post!!!

it's because people demanded to know if i was tme/tma (not mid-discussion or anything, just hopping into my inbox apropos of nothing and demanding to know) and got pretty mad when i said i wouldn't out myself like that.

like, plenty of kinds of people are tme, cis men, trans men, cis women, etc etc etc. but like, if i tell you 'i am a woman and i am tme' like... that information *together*? c'mon, that would out my AGAB. whether or not you're tme in *conjunction* with other information about you, can out your AGAB.

and on the flip side if i were 'tma,' and i say 'i am a woman and tma' that *also* would out my AGAB and paint a target on my back to the many many terfs and transmisogynists that already frequently find and harass me. i don't understand how this information is supposed to 'help' tma people when, in theory, you're just hopping into someone's inbox and pressuring them to out themselves.

and of course, this was a consideration for NONE of the people harassing me to disclose that information, because people *automatically assumed* that i was tme because i'm a butch and WHEN would a BUTCH ever be transfem, right? this way of framing things (again, literally just hopping into my inbox and demanding to know) doesn't really help tma people when you're just going blog-to-blog demanding to know, and harassing people and calling them terfs until they tell you. people need to stop for a second and think about what kind of environment that creates for closeted transfeminine people, nonbinary transfeminine people (bit contradictory huh? funny how transmasc and transfem came about to avoid phrases like MtF and FtM but then immediately reified that binary by ascribing 'masc' and 'fem' to medical transition. genuinely a cool label to use for yourself if it fits, but fuck man. what's old is new again) that want to be left alone that you literally will be harassed until you out yourself, or lie in order to get people to leave you alone. bang up job dipshits. you ARE the revolution.

like, my AGAB is no one's business. i do not tell people, and it should not matter to them. i readily agree that transmisogyny is a real concept. i do whatever i can to uplift and not speak over the experiences of trans women. the people framing disclosing your personal experience with transmisogyny as the 'price of entry' to discussions of transmisogyny? cool. makes sense i guess. trans women deserve to feel comfortable in spaces where they are being discussed. but if i wasn't demanding to enter that discussion, if i never pretended to be anything other than myself, nonbinary and deliberately ambiguous. you have NO right to come to me demanding that information. bro i was LITERALLY just standing here.

of course, this is a concept that demands nuance, and of COURSE no one was willing to hear me out or understand me before labelling me a terf and cyberbullying me and suicide baiting my inbox. chalk up another win for trans rights, assholes. at least this time the people in my inbox telling me to kill myself had 'tme' in their bios. that makes it soooo much better.

anyway R.I.P. my inbox

[wander-wren]

other people elaborated in the tags but i want to do it in the reblogs proper bc as an aroascespec lesbian with a funky (unaligned, nonbinary) gender, my fellow genderpunk lesbians are very important to me

[cut because i accidentally got on my soapbox. i am not mad at anyone and this post isnt exactly wrong/bad, i just care a lot about this]

cryptid is right! mostly! that source is,,,uh. i'm not going to identity police the author, of course, but i'm not a fan of how they speak for all transmasc lesbians (which, to be very clear, i do not identify as transmasc. i am afab, though, and identify WITH transmascs, as in our plights and experiences are often similar).

first, the non-men definition of lesbianism is...better than alternatives, but not all the way there. there is no good definition of lesbianism (or gayness, in the other direction) that includes all lesbians and excludes all people who are Very Much Not Lesbians (and very much not available to lesbian attraction). i know this very well, because there is no label for gayness that excludes me (i am not available to gay men's attraction in any way shape or form) AND includes other unaligned nonbinary people who are gay. sexuality is fluid, gender is fluid, the boxes are made up.

gender is complex. you can be a man and a woman simultaneously, or either depending on the day. you can be something outside of both. you can be masc, you can be a man, and you can be a lesbian. it's not hurting anyone.

["oh, but what if a cis man calls himself a lesbian just so he can--" well then he's an asshole and a rapist and he would have been both regardless of the language he couched it in. this is the bathroom argument again, you know?]

you can do whatever you want forever.

second, trans men have, historically and now, sometimes identified as lesbians. something queer people as a whole have gotten away from is the fact that queerness is so much about community. many ""straight"" transmascs/trans men grow up in the lesbian community, believing they're just butch or gnc lesbians. if they discover differently later, do you expect all of them to be okay with leaving the queer community that raised them? do you expect all of them to be okay with abandoning a label that shaped their identity and brought them comfort?

do you expect them to be willing to label their attraction as no longer queer, all of a sudden? as straight?

many transmascs gladly will, but not all of them. remember what i said about identifying with transmascs, despite not being one of them? we have more in common than i do with transfems, or even with a lot of afab nonbinary people.

side note: this whole thing is very closely intertwined with mspec lesbians (bi/pan lesbians) who often have complicated genders, and/or partners with complicated genders, complicated feelings, tangled up label histories...all these things that are very normal. again, the label isn't hurting anyone. i'm not That type of mspec lesbian, but i am aroacespec so i kind of get their feelings on it.

[psst, also, bi lesbian as a term has been around since at least the 80s, it's not new, and it wouldnt be bad if it was invented last week either. just saying]

annnnnd this got long. i'm sorry. i just want to counteract that carrd link because i do think it's well-intentioned, but the "aren't transmasculine people male/male-aligned?" slide made me deeply uncomfortable.

[to be very extremely clear: i do not have a problem with the rest of the carrd, i think op explained everything else well, i just don't understand why they...went that route for that slide. ah well]

did you know there's an old term, one i havent seen used today outside of older butches discussing identity, called "masc-of-center"? it covers butches, transmascs, gnc people, nonbinary people...anyone whose center core of their identity is masculine in some fashion, or whose identity centers over masculinity. it's a really nice term and sometimes i consider adopting it for myself. and the only place ive seen it used recently is lesbian (or more broadly sapphic) circles.

again, i'm not mad at anyone, this is like, some higher level stuff to think about and it can be confusing if you've never thought about it and i so, so do not want to discourage anyone talking about it bc exclusionists are everywhere and they get especially weird about lesbians for some godforsaken reason. so i appreciate it, for real.

i just have a really big interest in queer history and i like infodumping and i'm a bit battle-hardened from too many twitter fights, back when i was on twitter, and i do take this a little bit personally bc my identities are adjacent to these ones and i feel closer to them than the wider lesbian community. cryptid, if you'd like me to chuck my reblog, just lmk and i'll do it.

Uhm, my apologies if this sounds disrespectful, but may I ask how a transmasc cat would be a lesbian?? Would they just be straight???

Transmasc people can be lesbian! I'm not very good at explaining this stuff so here's a link to a person explaining this far better than I can!

But basically

Lesbian = non-man who is attracted to non-men

Trans masculine = someone afab who's gender identity is in some way aligned with masculinity. The most well known version of this are trans men, but you do not have to identify as a man to be trans masc! (I myself identify as trans masc and nonbinary!)

Therefore transmasc lesbians are possible and there are many! They can actually be found throughout history and are a big part of the lesbian community!

Gender and Sexuality is a spectrum <3