#this fandom cant handle complex women

[andreal831]

Lily Salvatore and Misogyny

I did an analysis on Esther a while back and was asked to do the same for Lily by @unabashedmoonlight. Sorry I am just getting around to it. I wanted to rewatch before discussing it in any kind of depth.

The misogyny Esther faces from the fandom is not limited to her, Lily and her heretics are constantly framed in misogynistic ways. She is yet another woman who has suffered immense levels of abuse, but is granted none of the understanding or forgiveness of her male counterparts.

When we first meet Lily, the show does a great job as painting her as the perfect villain. She appears to have almost no redeeming qualities. She is a ripper, she abandoned her own children to an abusive man, she started a new family and never looked back, etc. And this is what the fandom focuses on. They ignore the entire backstory that unfolds in Season 7 and her development. Yet, when the men in the show are critiqued for being monsters, the fandom jumps to explain it away by trauma and half-assed redemption arcs.

Lily is a perfect example of the cycle of abuse, escaping from one (Giuseppe) to find herself with another (Julien).

Lily and Giuseppe

Lily's abuse was even more explicitly stated than Esther's. There's no denying she was verbally, physically, emotionally, and financially abused throughout her marriage. To the point that she was willing to fake her own death and flee.

They even explicitly show that Lily was dependent on Giuseppe. She had to steal money from him to try and run with her own children because she didn't have any means for herself. She wasn't able to work and didn't have access to money.

During the time period they lived, Lily had nearly no resources to escape. She would have been the legal property of her husband. If she had run with her sons, Giuseppe would have had legal rights to throw her in jail. Yet she was willing to risk it to save her children. When Giuseppe found out he made certain that this was not going to be an option.

Lily also had less ability to protect her sons than Esther did since she wasn't a witch. She was not able to stop the abuse no matter how much people wanted her to. She could have stayed with her sons, but it wouldn't have stopped their abuse. She can be criticized as a mother for that, but at the same time, she was worried about her own survival as well. Giuseppe shot his own sons, it's not farfetched to believe she felt afraid for her life from such a man.

Lily and Julien

Shortly after she flees, Lily meets Julien. This is such a pivotal time for survivors. She had not had a chance to recover from the abuse in any means. It is very common for people who have suffered abuse to find themselves in second, third, fourth, etc. abusive relationships. It is a cycle. Abuse makes people feel weak and vulnerable as well as lowers their self-esteem. This can cause the survivors to seek out people who reinforce their low self-image and treat them how they feel they deserve to be treated.

In Lily's case, the only relationship she knew was Giuseppe. So when she meets Julien, and he is not physically abusing her, she truly believes he is better. She misses all of the other signs of abuse. She doesn't realize the manipulation. Julien is the reason Lily doesn't go back for her sons. She sends Oscar and Valerie to check on them and Julien convinces them to tell Lily they moved on from her death. Julien needed to stay in control of every aspect of Lily's life and he manipulated his way into getting that control without Lily even realizing it.

This is obvious by the way she vehemently tells her sons that Julien is nothing like Giuseppe. But as soon as they point out the similarities, she notices it right away and switches sides. This takes an incredible amount of strength to do. Once she realizes that Julien is no longer the man she thought he was, she turns on him. This is something the fandom tends to leave out when talking about Lily.

Her last moments are for her sons and her heretic children.

"I never had the courage to tell you before... I can choose them both."

After her death, Julien says that Lily is the only thing that kept her sane. This language is textbook narcissistic abuser. Making a person feel like every time you mess up it is their fault. They are the only thing that can keep you in line so if they ever leave, it will be their fault for everything you do.

Lily experienced abuse nearly her entire existence, but was finally able to fight back at the very end.

Lily, Stefan, and Damon

Most of the hate Lily gets is because of Damon. Damon's entire redemption plot is essentially tied to his treatment as a child/human life. TVDU likes to redeem characters by not making them seek redemption, but by making the fandom just feel bad for them and making excuses for their behaviors.

Damon and Klaus essentially get the same exact backstory because it is effective and takes minimal effort. Watching a child suffer abuse is an immediate way to garner sympathy because children are innocent. No one deserves to be abused, least of all children.

So painting Lily as a absolute villain allows more sympathy for Damon. But again, if Damon can get sympathy, it's only fair to give Lily sympathy as well. They both suffered abuse at different times. I'd even argue that Lily had better development.

Damon's last words to Lily show just how little Damon was able to grow as a character. He, like Klaus, hung onto his childhood trauma almost as a safety blanket. If he never faced his abuse, he could continue to use it to be angry. He never had to take accountability for anything. This is furthered by Damon at her funeral, acting like a child when his brother clearly needed to grieve. But that's another discussion.

Damon's development was tied to the women in his life, whereas Lily's was tied to her overcoming her abuse.

Lily and her Heretics

I also don't necessarily blame Lily for finding her family. TVDU is full of found families, even from characters that have living families. Yes, it hurt her sons to see her being more of a mother to other people, but should she have been alone the rest of her life?

Lily loved her heretics and even chose them over Julien. She wanted the best for them and even was willing to compromise with them to make them happy. This to me shows that she was a good person, but circumstances pushed her to do terrible things. Much like every man in the show.

The Misogyny of it all

Every character in the show has done bad things for various reasons. But the men get excuses and forgiveness, while the women get blame. I hate how often the show abuses women just so a man can have some kind of character development without doing anything.

Lily is a complex character. She is not all good or all bad. No one is. She wasn't evil for how she behaved, rather she was someone suffering abuse and responding to it.

I'm not saying Lily is perfect or that she deserved forgiveness from her sons. She still did so much that can be criticized. But we also can't ignore the abuse she suffered. She was a complex character who yes made terrible decisions, but ultimately was she worse than some of the fandom favorites? She did everything to fight for her and her family's survival like Elijah. She abandoned her children because of her own trauma just like Klaus did. She was a ripper like Stefan. Why are the women, who are victims of abuse, treated like the abusers rather than their fellow survivors?

[onestorytorulethemall]

ok guys. this post is inspired by a couple pjo pinterest girlies. “we need more complex characters” everyone says. BUT WE CANT EVEN HANDLE SHOW SALLY JACKSON. “book sally never would’ve done this or that”. WE ONLY SEE SALLY FROM PERCY’S POINT OF VIEW. just like how people are gonna make a huge deal about how leah ruined annabeth’s character in the show. but no because that’s been annabeth all along, that’s who she is, she’s bringing life to her character from a third person view. we get to see the whole picture now. we should be incredibly grateful that we even get a show, with a phenomenal cast, who have done a wonderful job so far. like that is exactly what makes good acting and storytelling and good and complex characters is IMPERFECTION. because NOBODY IS PERFECT. like we can’t handle seeing sally jackson, a struggling single mom on the edge of losing her crap because she’s so stressed out and all alone and is feeling pretty helpless. we can’t handle seeing annabeth chase IN ANY WAY BECAUSE NO MATTER HOW SHE IS PORTRAYED SOMEONE IS GONNA HATE ON HER. whether she’s that strong and tough fighter or vulnerable and emotional and affectionate someone is gonna find a way to complain about her. if sally is perfect and flawless and amazing people are gonna be like well there’s no way she’s actually that good but if she’s complex and shows her struggles and her emotions and her vulnerability people are gonna be like BUT NO SHES NOT PERFECT ENOUGH. there is no such thing as a flawless character. a GOOD character is full of imperfections and flaws. and i mean we can all agree that percy is clearly an unreliable narrator, so we see these women through his perspective. i would just like as we go into season two that we as a fandom will take a step back and look at the whole scene and instead of bashing leah for ruining annabeth but instead be grateful that she brings such life and perspective to her character. and the very same with sally jackson, thag we will just appreciate her character to being a good mom to percy and appreciate the great acting and be compassionate towards her character and try to be more understanding to her. because if we can’t even be compassionate towards a character like sally (though she doesn’t exist in the real world), how can we show compassion towards the people in real life?

[pinkysberg]

HELLO OKAY SO LIKE. I GENUINELY CANT STAND A CERTAIN PART OF THE RDR FANDOM WHO JUST HATES THE WOMEN. STRAIGHT UP LIKE I GET NOT LIKING A CERTAIN CHARACTER AND THEM NOT BEING YOUR FAV BUT ITS LIKE!!! THEY LITERALLY JUST CANNOT HANDLE COMPLEX WOMEN AND IT IRKS ME COMPARED TO HOW THEY TALK ABOUT/TREAT THE MEN

it's very frustrating and what makes it more frustrating is u can't even point it out without them all shitting their pants bc u say the word misogyny or imply it too closely.

[psychewritesbs]

hi! i didnt have much success when looking through ur blog to see if uve addressed this alrdy so apologies if u have.

i was curious to know ur thoughts on jjk's portrayals of gender, esp women/femininity. if u have particular insight from a psych or philosophy bg, id be interested in hearing that (warning, i have a v feminist critique lens)

ik u love gege's writing 😅 but his handle on female characters/femininity has given me such a difficult relationship w jjk, and its v difficult to have discourse on it. on one hand, we're introduced to sm interesting realistic women, tbh i actually never stanned a woman in manga before jjk. but imo it cant be denied that gege is a sexist writer. despite how realistic jjk women r theyre all .. halfwritten? i cant think of a single one who isnt underwritten, not fully explored, not utilized substantially in the plot, etc. and there r sm ex's of extremely minor male characters in jjk who r given more thematic relevance than frequently recurring women that just underscores that gender gap imo

this isnt solely a gege problem ik but what bothers me in particular about jjk vs other mangas is how gege addresses strength, even in the light of nb/androgynous characters, and how it feels as if gege's def of strength is inherently masculine? even despite going so far as to give us a philosophical battle shonen w diverse reps of gender and emphasizing individuality that encompasses both femme/masc traits

how a reader interprets whether a jjk woman is strong or not is obv subjective. like, i think shoko is strong but shes not depicted as such bc she doesnt have a combative technique whereas yuki maki nobara or mei r depicted as "strong" bc of their battle abilities. but it also feels as if those women r strong bc they take on "masculine" traits/mindsets whereas there r no clear depictions of "femininity" making women or men stronger. even utahime who falls into v classic shoujo girl tropes is seen as weak despite teaching her students v proficientally in battle strategy (mechamaru v mahito is a good ex of that imo), as compared to how gojo teaches his (ie dumping them into missions for experience). but thats not what gege ever chooses to highlight

femininity also doesnt even seem to make men/nb characters stronger. the ex's i can think of r naoya as a vagina (lmao), geto as a mother to curses, yuta as highly attuned to his emotions, kenjaku as yuji's mother -- those r things that support these (mostly) men's strong sense of individuality but like, those arent really the things that lend those characters their "strength", u know? like geges just sprinkling in androgyny for the spice 🧐

what is feminine vs masculine, how an individual embodies those traits in their gender identity r already complex topics. im obv generalizing a lot here, but i just, idk despite how many other nuanced philosophies gege explores, what is strong/desirable in jjk still falls down to all-out fighting abilities/physical prowess, emotional detachment, isolation, extremism, etc -- all things we harp on toxic masculinity for. and even when he critiques that, theres no cogent counter solution/way to be strong that gege provides, much less one that incorporates "femininity" and women

maybe im just asking for too much from gege after having read so many great representations of women and gender by female (and male) mangakas/writers but.. i shouldnt be 🙄 he can utilize his female characters more imo, esp when he can clearly set them up so well. and im sure theres things ive misread about jjk and its portrayal of femininity, theres plenty of holes in my thoughts ^^ anyways, this is obv not a great topic to bring up in a fandom that is so polarized between dudebros and women w unaddressed internalized misogyny.. so i welcome any and all thoughts and interpretations on ur end! (also omg im rlly sorry this got so long)

I love you feminist anon, if I may call you that lol, I just always name my anons 😂. I am so grateful that you sent this.

I feel like you've very eloquently explained the deeper reason as to why I personally can't relate to the female characters in jjk. If I'm honest, I like them and think they are fun and good enough representations or attempts at depicting the archetypes that rule their personalities.

As you say, however, some of them remain rather superficial and underutilized... and please forgive me anyone who loves them, but some of them feel like they are basically dudes wearing skirts.

No offense to dudes who wear skirts or people who like men who wear skirts or anyone for that matter. It's just that, as a personal preference, I like female characters that wear skirts, pants, leggings, etc and have equal amounts of masculine and feminine energy.

So, even if I find they are good enough, I've never necessarily loved jjk female characters, because, as you also say, I've read/seen one too many amazing and iconic female characters by other authors...

And it's not like I think you're asking for too much from Gege in wanting better female characters, it's just that, as you also said, I like his writing and I read jjk precisely because of what it's doing for my masculine psyche. Like... quite literally.

So perhaps I'm more forgiving than you are because of it? Because in all reality, there are female character moments in other manga that I have to give the bombastic side eye to, and jjk isn't one of them.

Let's taco'bout it more under the cut.

So, that said, I have to admit that you might not find a lot of "feminist oriented" content in my blog because my feminist lens is reserved for dealing with lame dudebros in my real life, and also, I honestly do not know how to wear the lens on the same level of depth as you do.

Also, since my blog's lens is depth psych, I very much focus on femininity and masculinity as psychological qualities that exist on opposite ends of a continuum regardless of biological gender. You'll see me refer to femininity and masculinity like this throughout my answer.

So because of this, I'm coming at the whole issue from a slightly different angle than you are. The way I see it, I think the way the jjk female characters are written and thematically utilized (basically everything you said), ultimately comes back to how Gege's exploration of femininity is limited by his own sense of self, and very much likely biased by the sociocultural landscape he grew up in.

I don't know how much you know about Japan, but Japan has one foot in the future, and one foot in the past...

And like... ok I'm totally oversimplifying the whole thing. All I'm saying is... Gege is a man who grew up in a man's world, sharing his view of the world through jjk, which is a story about initiation of the male psyche that is published in a magazine for young boys.

Do you see the pattern there?

So If you feel like his female characters are underutilized and underexplored, and that thematically jjk focuses way too much on masculinity and masculine definitions of strength at the expense of the feminine archetypes he does present (like Naoya as a vagina LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL)... well... to me, we're basically looking at the limits of his own relationship to his femininity, which, this relationship is in turn an imperative precursor for psychospiritual development in depth psych. More of this in a bit.

Anyways, that's my anticlimactic reasoning for why I am more forgiving about the issue than you are. To be honest, I've been so consumed exploring my masculine psyche through jjk (because personally my feminine psyche is more developed in certain aspects) that I just never focus on the female characters (that is not to mention what I shared earlier).

ANYWAYS, I fucking love what you wrote about Gege's exploration on power from a masculine perspective because you're 100% spot on. What I'll say to that is that, to me, from a depth psych perspective, that's kind of the whole point.

I invite you to look at it from this other level of perspective (in addition to the whole "Gege's psych is a product of his upbringing"): the whole idea of individuality and focusing on the sense of self as a measure of "The Strongest" is being shown as an incomplete part of the equation...

... that leaves "the strongest" ultimately feeling dissatisfied.

This is a sentiment echoed by several characters because ego strength (masculine definitions of strength) is ultimately an unbalanced measure of strength precisely because it ignores feminine values and measures of strength.

Who knows where Gege is taking jjk at this point, but I will admit I am hoping he is going to explore this in more depth because, central to Jungian thought and depth psych is the idea of the Buddhist middle path and union of opposites.

In Jungian psych this means that, when you have an unbalanced ego attitude like that, something has to give so that the pendulum swings in the opposite direction, which gives the ego the experiences it needs to integrate the "opposite" attitude. This ultimately results in a more holistic and balanced perspective for the ego.

That to say that I'm wondering if Gege is going to make the pendulum swing in the opposite direction with the whole "individuality" idea since self-preservation is a "masculine" trait. Again, psychologically, it's all about balance, and right now, the story is out of balance in favor of the masculine traits you mention.

But... to bring it back to Gege's possible limitations around his perception of femininity and how developing a healthy relationship to his anima (femininity) is a precursor for psychospiritual development... what if, on a meta level, jjk is depicting part of Gege's journey towards integrating and deepening his relationship to his femininity and what you're seeing is the beginning of that journey?

Hint hint Tsumiki! maybe I'll write about it someday

This is the thing... In depth psychology, more specifically what is called "the psychology of fairy tales", fairy tales and myths are stories that depict the thinking patterns of a peoples through metaphor and symbol. The characters in these myths and stories are thus characters playing out dramas in our own psyches. So basically, think of jjk as an objective exploration of Gege's subjectiveness (psyche).

Admittedly, even if the pendulum swings in the other direction (more feminine definitions of strength), you might find that his exploration is rather shallow or that it falls short of your expectations for what you'd like to see from a feminist perspective. And you wouldn't be wrong for it, it's just that Gege is probably not on the same level of understanding that you have about femininity because he's, like you and I, a human on a journey of self understanding and growth reflecting on how his environment has shaped who he is.

The same goes for women with internalized misogyny. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know, and coming to an understanding of it is a process that doesn't take place overnight.

So I think the only part I'll disagree with is that Gege is a sexist writer. But that's perhaps because I'm being a bit too technical in what sexist means? i.e. masc supremacy or hating women and perpetuating stereotypes. I think that rather than being sexist, his unconscious biases are showing, which is why someone like you can pick them out.

I do understand where you're coming from though, and admittedly perhaps I am being too forgiving of him.

Last thing I'll say is that I've said a couple of times that wanting for jjk to have these iconic female characters feels like an exercise in futility. In retrospect, I now understand that it's not that anyone shouldn't want for jjk to have iconic female characters, but that doesn't change the fact that jjk will probably remain the wrong manga to look for them, and that's something to make peace with because it is what it is.

So, here's to hoping we get a chance to see a deeper representation of feminine values in jjk or Gege's next manga. Because, if he's done such beautiful work with the masculine psyche, like you, I'd be curious to see what he makes of a deeper exploration of the feminine psyche.

Between you and I, I'd actually love reading a proper battle bl from Gege. And I mean proper. Like... gays so canon that even the dudebros can't deny it.

ANYWAYS... giiiiiiiirl what an ask 😮‍💨. I don't think I've done it justice tbh. But hopefully I made sense? I really do love what you wrote. It was very eye opening to see this age-old argument spelled out the way you did it. So thank you again for sharing your thoughts!

If you over have any other thoughts on the topic I look forward to hearing from you!

I rambled too so... hopefully I made sense 🤣.

[summeroflove-if]

All of your characters have complex identities, are you sure your able to handle it all? You cant know what it's like to be even half of these people - mattie is disabled, charlies autistic, theo is demisexual (and you clearly know nothing about that), anwar and scarlette are black, and im sure you cant know how to handle all of this.

Hi anon, you have certainly made a lot of assumptions about me, haven't you?

Firstly, you do not need to fit the identities of characters you want to write - if we made that a rule, diversity would be very difficult to come by, and you'd end up with a lot of books/movies/shows/IFs with characters that are all the same. Beta readers and sensitivity readers exist for a reason.

Now, onto my personal identities...

I am not black. I am very white, and I am keenly aware that I need to be very careful in my portrayal of these characters, especially given that I know black people, mostly the women, have been treated awfully in some of the fandoms I am in, and both Anwar and Scarlette do badly in each poll about how much people like them.

I have done a lot of research, even brought books about writing black characters, and while I am sure I will get it wrong at some point, given how big this IF will be, I am doing my very best to triple-check what I am doing and I take genuine critique when it is offered.

No seriously, if you have genuine critique about anything, please message me or leave an anonymous ask, I promise you will get a response.

Outside of that? I am disabled, neurodivergent, demisexual and demiromantic, and an AFAB agender person. Will my portrayals be perfect? No, because my opinions of what is right and wrong, and my experiences, will frame how I write this IF, but I have enough personal experience to write most of these characters.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

zutaras : Maiko is abusive cause she said, "I just asked if you were cold not for your whole lifes story." (clearly they never improve as a couple and remain static cause the beach aint canon so they can ignore zukos bad behaivor )

Zutaras: you cant use zukos past to define zutara but they do it consantly with mai and zuko first meeting katara is a 100 times worse

Zuko invades kataras village/ roughly handles her grandma/ nearly burns the women/children/ nearly runs over a child with his large boat zutaras: Crickets / he redeemed himself/ doesnt count/ season 3 he hired a hitman well thats OOC awkard/ shy baby zuko would never. but aang would def abuse katara and make her do all the chores

Zutara: aang displays predatory behaivor/ abusive behaivor /bad boyfriend behaivor

Zuko throws a man into a wall because mai was talking to his friend/ insults her/ tries to wrap his arm around her after snidly asking, "wheres your new boyfriend? Zutaras: Call the two times he kidnapped her romantic/ Quote a line where he knocked her out as romantic

(and i have yet to see a kataang label zuko a rapistcause we aint braindead and dont want to demonize a child we just point out canon and zutaras just hate canon for some reason)

Zutara: Mai is abusive /katara would never/ worse girlfriend ever /bringing up zukos behaivor means you dont support abuse victims mai saves zukos life: Zutara: OOC // she never feared azula/ mai is toxic/ aang goes to save katara: CLINGY/ BAD BOYFRIEND/ hes obessed with katara zuko saves katara: TRUE LOVE

aang lets katara go and goes into the avatar state zutara: Seems fake that never happened katara:suggest her and aang kiss in cave of two lovers zutara: OOC / This is only happening because their stuck/ katara is his mom Zuko/katara trapped in a cave together: TRUE LOVE UNITES/ they were meant to be see the symbolism

Katara tells toph she doesnt want to be seen as a mom Zutara: MOMTARA is canon if you tell us otherwise your sexist

katara and sokka pretending to be aangs parent= GROSS INCEST tho i recall aang wasa their grandpa once.. its almost as if katara is the only girl who can pass as somewhat older, toph sure couldnt.. its not that deep fam..

zutara: LOK is sexist cuase kataras a mom but if she was the mom of zukos kid it wouldnt be sexist because.. she loves politcs

this is why i cant stand the zutara fandom from the hypocrisy, the igornace of canon, ignoring kataras agency , the hate towards aang, the sexist hate towards mai, the handwaving of aang trauma the sludge i went through with the tags as a zutara shipper.. made me nearly hate the ship.. it waasnt kataang fans that nearly killed a ship/ ruined zuko for me it was zutara fandom. sure not everyone thinks that way but so many of em do and it ruined the fandom experience for me i had to block the tag i still ship but it have zero interest in a fandom that hates the show /main character/ heck im convinced 90 percent of em hate canon zuko /katara cause they sure never talk about their canon personalitys kts all just boring fanon to throw shit/aang/mai worse shipping fandom i ever met..

The only thing I'll disagree with is the point about Mai and Azula. While fear/intimidation/Azula being her princess before being her friend WAS the main reason why their friendship crumbled, it wasn't as simple as Mai being just her puppet. We literally see her deciding, of her own free will, to go help Azula in book 2.

She made a bad choice by joining Azula. So did Zuko. If anything, the complexity of "I cared about this person, but the relationship got toxic and I had to distance myself from them because of it, and now to make things even worse we're in opposing sides of a war" is something they can both relate to - hence Zuko not holding it against Mai, since that is a mistake he also made.

It's almost like they are compatible or something...

[clawsnoir]

Weirdos will literally ship bruce with an actual terrorist and try to make selina more masculine before accepting the fact that she is complex and fragile and not ment to be a part of the strong black woman trop.

I know you've said alot about this and i don't want to repeat too much of what you've said before but its utterly annoying. She isn't ment to be this sturn woman who never shares her emotions shes ment to be vulnerable and complex (she literally shares her family life with a guy she just met) so it really annoys me when people try to make her more "masculine" to appeal to that trope about black women and how they cant be feminine and delicate.

Shes ment to be the opposite of the trope but people seek past that just to have a reason to fantasie about her without seeing bruce as the dominant and more masculine one in the relationship I have even seen things that go ahed and outright switch her gender to a man completely.

Bruce in the movie is absolutely dominant and protective over her going ahead to outright not allow her to do anything without him knowing when he found out about falcone. But people cast that aside to try and make his protectivness over her as somewhat pathetic like its a complete joke when its what helps build their relationship because he is always protecting her and stopping her when shes vulnerable and in a state of mind where she isn't thinking straight.

Also the hints of jealously and possessiveness he exhibits in the movie are completely prominent. Like when he insinuates that she had to do stuff in order to get close to the mob or when he thinks that he sees her durring the funeral and rushes quickly towards her in an almost jealous manner.

I really love their relationship in this movie and want more because shes so complex and so is he and their relationship works so well in seeing how they choose to handle their trama and their lust for eachother. Selina being the one making the first move until the very end causing her to be more open with her relationship and how she feels about things. So it pains me so much when people say they had absolutely no chemistry. Like did we watch the same movie? Or when people cast her aside for a literal fucking reddit incel terrorist because his a white man and fandom just fucking loves that. Then go ahead to act like they aren't being racist and outright fucking annoying when they say all that mean shit about selina and how she was only good until she kissed Bruce like that wasn't a pivotal part of the story and Bruce's ability to open up to people.

Am sorry if am rumbling but let me cut this short. I really hope that they make their relationship a man part of the movies because it helps with growth for both of them and makes them better characters and people especially Bruce who doesn't understand his privilege and him being better off than most of the people in Gotham. I want them to be exploded more better especially Bruce and Selina cause Selina clearly hates his guts but and Bruce knows that. I am so tired of riddlebat fans

Hope they disappear.

Sorry if this was long lol

no worries baby, I love when you guys share your thoughts with me. the longer the message the better :)

Bruce is incredibly dominant and protective when it comes to her, you hit the nail right on the head. Selina is attracted to him precisely because he's displaying that kind of behavior towards her. Look, Selina is no stranger to powerful men trying to offer her ""protection"". It's always conditional - it's not real caretaking, and only stems from a desire to fuck her, to own her.

Batman is very obviously attracted to her, but he's also very obviously fighting to not give into that attraction. Which means there are no expectations on his side when it comes to their relationship. He isn't helping her because he thinks she's going to spread her legs for him, he's helping her and protecting her because he sees value in her life and personhood and cares about her wellbeing.

No one has ever treated Selina like that before. She's never mattered to anyone in that way. She's willing to make herself vulnerable to him emotionally even when he's being withdrawn and cold to her because she knows that he cares. He may not be able to express it verbally but he doesn't need to. Selina understands him.

And yeah, the way the R/iddlebat shippers constantly put her down as a character is deeply embarrassing and pathetic. They act like she's in the way of their ship being canon, which is beyond delusional. Even if Selina didn't exist their ship would never happen because the entire premise of that relationship is that it's based in parasocial one-sided obsession, lmao. Batman and Riddler's objectives will never align. Bruce is disgusted by him to the point of telling him he's a freak loser that's going to die alone, a nobody, unloved and unwanted 💞 That's their ship, no matter how much uwuification they try to pull with the characters.

Facts are that Matt Reeves understands the BatCat dynamic. Bruce and Selina's love story is the beating heart of the narrative. He has to open his heart to her first before he can genuinely start to change and open his heart to the rest of the city. To stop seeing things as black and white and start caring about the victims instead of just punishing criminals.

Bruce has a lot of blind spots - Selina provides the clarity he needs along the lines of race, class, and sex. And it's not like this is a one-sided relationship where she exists to further his growth, they are growing together in tandem. Selina is a cynic who carries a lot of self-loathing. Bruce's faith in her, his idealism, his dedication to Gotham all inspire her on her journey to becoming Catwoman.

The fandom can be frustrating, it's true. But at the end of the day we gotta have faith in Matt Reeves. Selina isn't going anywhere ♥️

[oupydogcity]

morty for ask game

louie my normal mutuals are going to hate me forever

sexuality headcanon: im gonna elaborate on this more in the gender part but i think the morty we see on screen is attracted exclusively to women

gender headcanon: Here’s where things get complicated so i cant actually like. decide. Because i really love the concept of morty being a trans girl and not realizing it for a really long time a la June Egbert but the thing about rick and morty is that the episodic sitcom structure is so heavily enforced by the text that i dont know if he will ever actually get there by virtue of how the text works. morty being a girl would change a lot about the character that i dont think the shows structure could handle unless everyone was subverting their trope. i may also be overthinking this. Also i dont not like transmasc morty especially with transmasc rick i think that would be really cute ive reblogged a few posts about that, and that also works with the sitcom structure. tboy morty also makes me go WOW Hes Just Like Me, which is a bonus. also, as i said in rick’s post, i think morties of every gender identity and presentation exist because yk they are infinite, but this is what i feel about c137

a ship i have with this character: rnm is not a shippy show to me. i think morty should umm, play videogames. and be normal.

BROTP: morty and summer’s relationship is so cute. I love summer did anyone know this about me.

NOTP: again. dont really have any.

a random headcanon: mained genji in ovw also he would love splatoon let morty play splatoon

general opinion: literally one of my favorite characters of all time i think i just have difficulty thinking about him in a fandom-y scope because hes so much more complex i cant really put him into a box like this!

[char-lotteral]

I agree with Kishimoto never trying to use the girls. The hate they get is not fair. I used to defend Sakura back in the days because I hoped kishi would do her justice. When shippuden started I WAS SO HAPPY because I thought this was the start of something great for Sakura and the girls but NOOOOO. Every time, Sasuke showed kishi turned her brainless. If you compare Naruto's actions and Sakura's actions to sasuke, you'd see they're completely different. What's up with that weird fake love confession scene 😭? It makes her look like she was manipulating Naru. JEEZ.

Also he literally had badass Tenten and Temari with cool useful abilities and he didn't use them ?! TF ?! Thank god for modern authors who treat their characters with respect :)

okay2 you know how i am with these longass rants so click readmore and brace yourselves

The way I see it, Sakura's character development in shippuden was always one step forward, two steps back. She gets this really badass scene (like her fight with Sasori and those cool ass medical skills) but is then regressed back into a pining girl in love every time Sauce is on screen or Kishi just throws her in the background YET AGAIN.

I love Sakura's abilities actually. Her brute strength, intelligence, vast knowledge and skill as a medic nin. But what I dislike about her character is how kishi handled her feelings for Sasuke. Naruto and Sakura's obsession with Sasuke was so???? huh??? it was so damn toxic and i never once understood why both Nardo and Sak were so obsessed with him. They were a team for one year???? I mean its great that they care about him alot but Sauce's feelings were kinda valid. His freakin clan died. Id go batshit crazy against my own village too. BUT BESIDES THAT. Both Nart and Sakura's Sasuke obsession was so annoying. 80% of shippuden was literally Keeping up with the Uchihas or Naruto yelling SASUKEH. BUT what irks me so much is the fandom's double standards with both Naruto and Sakura. "Oh Sakura shouldve gotten over her Sasuke obsession" but then turn around and call Naruto's obsession cute and gush about how he's so in love with him!!

Hot take but the only reason why sasunaru is "the most developed ship with the most chemistry" is because theyre both male characters.

I guarantee you if Naruto was a girl and SHE would be the one to have this unhealthy obsession who was chasing around Sasuke, the fandom would shit on Naruto just as much. And if Sasuke were a girl, Sauce would be sidelined like the rest of the female cast and Naruto would have another male character to have a "brotherly bond" with, because thats the only bond Kishimoto is actually good at developing. Yey for male characters having all the screentime and cool assets <333

And about that confession scene, I get her intentions. I really do. I understand that she did that in order to bring him home and that she cares about him but honey, w-why?? Why lie to him about your feelings?? Supposed he DID believe her, then what? then what kishi???? huh??? Some of her fans point the blame on Sai or whatever but I personally dont see why that scene was at all necessary. Maybe to establish Naruto's feelings for her wasnt all that serious? or his maturity? idk man. That scene was such a clusterfuck.

In the end her development in The Last and in Boruto was immaculate. She had one of the best glow ups in the old gen and ironically enough, her character wasn't butchered in Boruto. She got badass scenes she was cheated from in shippuden. I also love how she's finally getting the spotlight she deserves. Unlike the other konoha 12 :,)))

Okay onto the next female character that Kishi completely wasted. My baby. My light. 🙈 AAAHHH HINATAA.

I DONT EVEN KNOW WHERE TO BEGIN OKAY2 DEEP BREATHS.

Let me just establish this real quick. Hinata's goal was to get stronger because of Naruto, her goal was never to be with Naruto. She wanted to become someone who is worthy enough to stand beside him, someone whom he can consider as an equal, as a partner. She NEVER once said "marrying Naruto-kun is my all time goal UwU" (if youre one of those weirdos who interpret her character that way, youre immediately invalid, go take a hike)

I personally dont have anything against their crushes but to the point of making their personalities revolve around these guys every time theyre onscreen is so fucking frustrating. And with the way he writes their dialogues is so.damn.cringey. Like that one scene in the war arc with Tsunade and Madara

"I mAy bE a WomAn but I aM nOt WeAAKKKK"

BAAHAHAAHHA WHAT?? Everyone else gets coolass monologues and one liners but thats the best you can come up with Kishi?????? Hilarious.

If im being honest. Hinata's character is actually kinda well written. Not well executed. Dear God no. But with the way he set her story, her personality, her chracterization. She's honestly one of the best written female characters on the show. IMO. By Kishi's standards of writing women ofc. She's hands down one of the most complex characters. Her shy personality wasnt out of the blue, it wasnt a cutesy waifu trait. Her abusive upbringing made her that way. Her trauma turned her that way. So yeah, sue her if she looked up to Naruto as an inspiration when everyone else in her family treated her like dust. Shit on her for having Naruto's love light in her dark when her own damn father wouldnt even look her in the eye and her entire clan shunned her because she was "weak." She doesnt owe her family shit so idgaf what they do with the Hyuga clan. Neji and Hanabi aren't included btw

Im not gonna deny that her role in the show was only as the love interest but tbh for a love interest, Im glad her character wasnt so one dimensional. It just pains me SO MUCHHH how fucking wasted she is. Every time she's with Naruto, they always make her into a damsel in distress. They always feel the need to turn Naruto into the heroic prince. How cute.

LIKE THAT ONE SCENE IN THE LAST WHERE SHE'S THROWN IN THE CAGE?? WHY??? LET NARUTO AND HINA FIGHT THAT FREAKING ALIEN GOD TOGETHER. QUIT WITH THE TOXIC MASCULINITY. WE GET IT. NARUTO'S STRONG. GOOD FOR HIM. NOW LETS SEE HINATA THROW HANDS AND PUT NARUTO IN THE CAGE GODAMMIT

Hnggggg dont get me started with her role in Boruto. She's as relevant as a damn houseplant in the manga. They made her into an invisible trophy wife and "the mc's mother" and we all KNOW what happens to the shounen mc's mother once mc is in need of character development :) Quit putting her in the background. Give us that scene where she won against Hanabi DESPITE being retired for years. Give us that scene where she trains Boruto. GIVE US ANY FIGHT SCENE OF HER WHERE HER POTENTIAL ISNT WASTED WTF?¿

Now if you say that Hinata didnt have development. YOURE INVALID. She came from an abusive household, the shyest girl in her class, her insecurities got in the way of her own confidence, had difficulty of standing up for herself now became a loving mother of two, has the guts to kick her husband out of the house(with whom she couldnt even keep eye contact with when she was a kid) became the strongest hyuga, most supportive wife and mother, and has given her kids the comforting childhood she never had as a kid.

She has one of the most beautiful stories in the show and if you think her personality is only Naruto-kun and big boobs, then im sorry that you cant appreciate such a heartwarming story.

And I agree, killing her would honestly make me feel more at ease than continue to see her suffer because of godawful misogynistic writers. But at least let her die in an epic fight. Please. PLEASEE. She got nerfed so bad, i feel a physical pain every time i think about it

Okay what else. I think Ino got pretty good development. Another wasted potential in shippuden but she's doing good for herself in Boruto. I dont know what Temari is up to. They basically made her into another classic angry mom who beats up her husband for comedy trope. Haha very funny and original! Im not sure with her career, im not that invested in the anime.

Tenten??

oh G O D Tenten. The dirtiest of all. Her jokes about her screentime is so mean and i hate that its true ahsjhs. She was the only female character in OG who's goal wanted to be as strong as Tsunade but what did Kishi do to her?? Sidelined. Forgotten. Irrelevant. Like every damn female on the show :D

Konan shouldnt have died. I blame plot armor. I know in my heart that Konan wouldve kicked Obito's ass if it weren't for Kishi's boomer mindset.

Tsunade had so much hype when she was introduced but died down in the war arc. Madara wiped the floor with the kages. Holy shit. Not only that, but yipee! Naruto is there to save the day AGAIN!!!!

AND UGHHHH If the female characters were given proper treatment then maybe MAYBE all the endgame couples wouldve made fucking sense????¿¿¿

I think that ends my rant. Im not sure how the female characters in Boruto are handled. Except maybe Sarada (she's pretty well executed in the manga imo). But arguably they are sooo much better handled in Boruto than how the old gen girls were. And thats because Kishi isnt anywhere near the new gen female cast. I cant formulate a solid opinion with the other new gen female cast since im not entirely invested in the anime. Not ashamed to admit that I only watch it for the sunshine moments and for Hinata :DD

[ouyangzizhensdad]

unpopular opinion: most of the mxtx critical discourse happens becouse people cant let go of their prejudes against bl genre

Somewhat agree? I know you used “most” so you already acknowledged that there are other factors at play, but I do think it’s important to consider that reactions like these generally do not have a single, easy answer. 

While people tend to conflate danmei and BL, we can’t ignore that there have been larger discussions about how women *should* or *should not* engage or produce m/m content, in and out of fandoms, in ways that even people who haven’t drunk the anti-fujo kool-aid are inherently suspicious of “straight women” writing m/m stories (the Love, Simon controversy is an example of that where the author was forced out of the closet for the crime of writing a m/m story as a presumed straight woman). But danmei/bl being non-western, non-white genres certainly accentuate many of these tensions. Racism funnily both play into the patronising/otherising takes regarding how ‘terrible’ danmei-bl is compared to other m/m content, but also in the criticisms of westerners who engage in danmei-bl: ‘so you guys just want to fetishise asian men/asian gay men’.

As well, there’s been so much discussions about what *should* or *should not* been written when it comes more broadly to romance and sex, about what is problématique or not, the conclusion of which seems to lean toward the idea that any content that is not a safe, sane and consensual PSA or entirely wholesome simply should not exist. And that’s not even mentioning the sort of “psychologisation” or “trauma-turn” of these discussions, where people assume the psychological states of people who write or engage with problématique content, or propose that only people who have the right list of traumas can produce or engage with these types of content. And that hangs heavy not only in the mind of people who produce content but the person who consume it. If the only reason you could possibly want to engage with anything problématique would be that you are, in a way, deviant or broken, then perhaps you will start consciously avoiding these types of works or people who produce them. And all these relate to large discussions about how “””fiction impacts reality””” and discussions about social justice and consent, etc. etc. Once more, we have overlapping discourses and so, so much intertextuality. 

And the thing is that, generally, it’s not like these discourses are “rotten to the core,” ie that there is not important conversations to be had about these topics or that real issues did not spark these conversations in the first place. However, many people tend to want to collapse these complex discussions with complex and sometimes contradicting conclusions into a single, convenient answer by going to the extreme. And we have to recognise that there is something rewarding about feeling like you’re in the right, especially when these discourses become moralised. The trade-off between giving up entirely on something for the reward of taking the moral high ground seems very appealing! And it’s a lot less difficult than to navigate on a case-by-case basis works of fiction or fandom discussions, or to figure how to like something you might also disagree with or question regarding certain aspects. 

However, not only is it a vain effort, it is also denies art its capacity for meaning. It is vain because, well, the sources of the issues are unlikely to disappear and will probably only move onto a newer manifestation, and because humans be problematic 🤷‍♂️ and we be living in a society 🤷‍♂️. It doesn’t mean we should not be critical and have debates and conversations and expect better--but it means that this belief that the internet will be a good place if only we can squash fandom group X is just..... a fantasy. A comforting one, perhaps, but one all the same. I wouldn’t mind it as much if there wasn’t harassment and aggression resulting from these beliefs, and if it didn’t stifle art and creativity, the latter relating to an underlying assumption that there is nothing of worth in exploring in fiction difficult or shocking themes, or relationship dynamics that are not perfect or healthy. And that is just..... fundamentally misunderstanding the point of art and fiction. 

As well, somewhat in relation to these discussions, it’s important I think to accept that a lot of people who engage with MDZS in bad faith do so after they have been exposed by takes demonising the work that they took at face-value. It takes a lot more energy, good faith, critical thinking, and good reading comprehension to end up finding arguments against a perception of a work that you already accepted as true before you read it. Especially since social media has made it so much more dependent on other people’s opinions to decide what we engage with, and in which manner we will, I don’t think it can be understated. If you have already been served an opinion, it is easier than having to form your own, and easier than challenging it. Especially if people frame that opinion as morally right, and the people who disagree with it as degenerate sickos. Wouldn’t want to side with the freaks!!!

Finally, MDZS is not a work of fiction that can be read on the surface, and is a work that likes to play with tropes in a manner than is not necessarily a complete and total subversion, things that make it easier for people to miss the point of many of its elements. It’s even harder considering the level of the available translation and the framing of said translation--and the fact that many of the readers are not part of the intended audience and lack many of the cultural or literary knowledge that would help them navigate the novel. And, let’s be honest, it’s easier to miss the mark at times when a writer decides to handle more complex and controversial topics. It’s not like I don’t think MXTX could have not done some things better.

[ghostlybelladonnas]

a rant abt claia and the reaction of the fandom:

listen i like claia but not just bc it’s wlw, it’s bc we’ve already seen these characters for who they are apart from each other also.

i’ve always liked the idea of gaia having a girlfriend. i was always dreading that they would pair her up with a guy character and then her story would dwindle to simply being just another side-romance with some new guy character instead of her fleimkepa story + learning to breakthrough a mold of strong religious identification (which is something i myself have to battle with coming from a christian background and learning to accept what was best for me).

yet never in my wildest imagination would i guess they’d actually let gaia, an underrated character, get with the main bisexual strong character of the show. like i love gaia, i’m a big tati fan and her character of prudence from sabrina netflix. so i’ve always appreciated when they would allow her to show up more and now not only could we very much see tati play a character who has a main relationship with a character in a story while balancing her own, but that character also happens to be bisexual herself.

and for me, i’ll just say it, haven’t really been concerned with clarke’s love life after lexa died. i dabbled or tried to in blark, but it just felt too non-romantic in their scenes together and a ship that solely relied on theoretical subtext to ever work for me. the story could’ve been interesting if they kept the s1 vibes, but after that it just dwindled to recycling its own story and became too friendly for my ship taste. also, the fandom has a god-complex handout to every blark who has a certain amount of followers or likes, and from my experience in it a lot of ppl were downright SHITTY. and a lot still are. so this mixed together has led to my culmination in that i don’t ship blark, in fact because of the fandom, i simply cant stand. there are good shippers don’t get me wrong, but the majority of the fandom is just as bad as the reylo fandom has been. it’s just awful.

but now, i’m shipping clarke with someone, with an underrated character who whether or not truly does get with clarke is left to be seen, but is someone that i’ve always liked the idea of being lgbt + being someone who plays another character on sabrina who i ship in a wlw relationship. no, that doesn’t mean every character tati plays has to be wlw, that’s not what i’m saying. i’m just moreover happily surprised with a concept i just thought would be cool (abt her character gaia being wlw) but was cool with nonetheless if it remained unsaid and she still got her own storyline. like it’s rare that you see a show have a wlw couple with two characters that have established stories/arcs apart from each other, and though we are getting more of those couples we still don’t have enough.

but with this ship comes the unhappy blarks who are convinced that they’d get something from creators who don’t give a shit abt making them romantic and have already proceeded to act out over a simple script release. y’all wanna know why they probably released the script? here’s most likely why:

because of the same blark outrage over lexa kissing clarke back in s2, they were convinced that clarke couldn’t like her back and jason had to prove it to them she could/she was indeed bisexual. that’s why the script was released now: to shut up stupid blarks that can’t handle clarke getting with women and try to shut it down to boost their ship up. and yet, y’all have still convinced yourselves that it’s bait or platonic bc no matter what, y’all have such a hard time grasping that clarke could have anyone other than bellamy, especially a woman, in her life and have gone far to try and ensure it doesn’t happen.

yes, y’all have gone far since the premiere over claia. one of y’all’s twitter users who saw screenings took it upon herself to leak episodes of the 100 or lie abt them bc blark didn’t happen and claia got her in a twist. she also got fired and publicly denounced from her journalist company because of it, all because she couldn’t stand claia getting in the way of a nonexistent mlw ship.

NONE OF YOU GUYS ACTED OUT THIS BAD WHEN IT WAS CLARKE AND HER GUY HOOK UP LAST SEASON! SO DON’T FUCKING @ ME SAYING BLARKS HAVE NEVER EVER ACTED OUT IN LESBOPHOBIC WAYS BC NEWSFLASH, THIS SEEMS PRETTY BAD ON Y’ALL’S PART.

and a lot of y’all have been making excuses to hate on claia even when it hasn’t even happened, saying it’s rushed or that it would never happen this early on, when y’all didn’t say this shit when it was abt flarke, marper, miller and all of his mlm relationships, etc. none of y’all acted this bad then. so don’t try and paint yourselves as saintly police this time around.

what i’m getting at is that claia has barely started, it has potential, and it has managed to piss off so many blarks that it’s becoming like pre s3 the 100 tumblr again. blarks have seemingly learned nothing from their experiences in the past before and let me just say that any respect i had for that fandom as a whole anymore is gone. just like the reylo fandom due to different reasons, but it’s gone now.

so i’m going to continue to ship an interesting, potential-filled wlw ship that could or could not happen, and i won’t waste my time thinking that blarks will be accepting, bc the majority of y’all have proven otherwise. some are fine, but most are downright sad.

[andreal831]

Esther "Mikaelson" and Misogyny

The misogyny in TVDU, in both the writing and the fandom, is exhausting. It comes out so much, especially when it comes to complex women versus complex men. Esther (yes, I know her last name is not Mikaelson), is not one of my favorite characters, she's not even a character I particularly like. But to act like she is an absolute villain with no redeeming qualities is a best misogynist, and at worst blaming a victim of abuse.

Most of the hate for Esther tends to come from certain character stans because they don't like how Esther treated their favorite character or want to shift the responsibility of their favs to Esther so that they don't have to deal with a complex, morally grey character.

Esther is a survivor many times over and we cannot talk about her without first acknowledging that. When she was just a teenager/young adult, her entire family was slaughtered and she and her sister were kidnapped. I know there is a lot of debate in the psychology community regarding Stockholm syndrome, but her falling for Mikael screams a manipulated, traumatized, naïve, young woman.

Esther and Mikael

Whether it was Mikael's intent initially or not, he took advantage of the mental place she was at when they met. People recently have wanted to argue whether or not Esther was abused, but this is not a debate. First, there are many different types of abuse, mental, physical, emotional, financial, etc.

During this time period, while Norse communities tended to give woman more power, Esther was from "outside" their community. Her rank in the community would come directly from her marriage. I personally don't know if she went into her relationship with Mikael in order to gain security or if she was just truly that naïve and wanted love and a family. There is nothing wrong with either. It reminds me of why Hayley decided to try and actually have a relationship with Jackson. Woman have historically had to make hard decisions in order to gain protection. And even if she just wanted to get married and have kids, that is fine. Esther reminds me of Meg March. Her dreams may have been different than Dahlia but that doesn't make them less important.

We see very little of their human lives and it is told from everyone else's perspective except for Esther. We also know that everyone's stories are not accurate. Klaus lied about Esther's death for a thousand years. He also has a tendency from not seeing things through other perspectives. Klaus, and even Elijah, when they talk about their human lives, focus on Mikael's abuse on Klaus because the show centers around Klaus and doing everything they can do to redeem him. There is no benefit to making Esther look complex or going into how living with Mikael impacted her. But it is naïve to say she didn't suffer abuse. She lived in a household with a violent, angry man. Even if he didn't physically hit her, which we honestly don't know but I would find that extremely hard to believe, it is clear he verbally, emotionally, and financially abused her.

People love to say she is a powerful witch and could have stopped him or left, but this is shifting the blame from the abuser to the victim. First, abuse isn't about who is stronger. This logic is completely dismissing so much abuse that happens, especially women abusing men. Yes, Esther is a powerful witch, but if she had no other options outside of Mikael, being powerful doesn't matter. We know she would put Mikael to sleep for long periods to protect her and her children. We don't know if she did anything else, but we have at least one example of her using her magic to intervene. We also know she stopped practicing for a long time because of her fear of dark magic and how the community treated Dahlia.

We also have to acknowledge that Esther had very few choices. Sure, she could kill Mikael but she would have gotten sentenced to death for that. Again, her position in the community came from her connection to Mikael, otherwise she was just another enslaved person from a village they raided. We know how Dahlia was treated. Maybe she could have run off with Ansel and they would have protected her from Mikael, or if he was dead, the villagers, but this is putting her, her children, and the pack in a dangerous situation. Potentially starting a war between the pack and the village for aiding and abetting a kin-slayer. She would also be acknowledging her affair and adultery by woman was met by serious punishments, usually death. After committing matricide, she also wouldn't have claims to Mikael's money or land as an outsider. Maybe in the "new world," but she would have to hide her involvement in his death. Esther would have no money or land of her own as her familial land and money would have been claimed when it was raided.

While women in Norse communities did experience more freedom than other areas of the world at that time, they were still far from free. This is especially true considering how Esther came to this community. While she wasn't enslaved in a way Dahlia was, it is wrong to say she wasn't still enslaved. Her entire village was killed and her and her sister were forced to come to their village and live amongst them as hostages. Esther was kept as a way to keep Dahlia in line. She was not welcomed into the community. This was a common practice during these raids.

The reason I get so angry when people attack Esther as if she wasn't a victim is because real-life victims hear this everyday. Esther's situation perfectly exemplifies the "non-perfect" victim and the fandom perfectly exemplifies how many of these victims are treated.

Esther and Dahlia

Dahlia gets way more slack than Esther because she is a "more perfect victim." But again, we are getting the story from everyone's perspective but Esther. Yes, what Dahlia went through was horrible, but what she put her sister through was also horrible. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Dahlia had no right to expect Esther to give up her dreams for her, even though she did sacrifice a lot for Esther. She made that decision and took it on. Yes, it was noble, but again, she cannot expect anything for a choice she made. It is just like Klaus expecting his siblings to never leave him and punishing them when they do. Siblings do not owe each other their lives. I would also not blame Dahlia for leaving Esther behind to protect herself.

On top of that, when Esther went to Dahlia and asked for help, she took advantage of the situation and stole her child. I don't care what Esther promised or how much she understood of the situation, clearly at the moment Dahlia came for Freya, Esther did not want to give her up. If we look at it in a modern perspective, a mother who puts her child up for adoption has the right to change their mind because, morally, we understand it is impossible to understand how you will feel until that moment. If a person than steals the child after the mom changes their mind, that's kidnapping. If we look at it from a historical perspective, Norse communities were patriarchal and the children belonged to Mikael. Meaning Esther did not have the ability to "sell" her children.

Dahlia is given a lot of sympathy in the fandom because they relate her story to Klaus, who they spend a lot of time victimizing. So it makes an easy leap to paint Dahlia as the victim and Esther as the "evil" one. But again, we never see how Esther reacted to her sister casting her aside because she wanted love and a family. or how Mikael treated her throughout their relationship. Even if Dahlia ended up being right about Mikael, whether he was always evil or turned evil losing Freya, Dahlia doesn't get to make that decision for Esther. It is hard to watch someone you love get into an abusive relationship, but you can't tell someone what to do with their life. All you can do is try and be there for them when they need help.

Esther and Klaus

Another reason people hate on Esther is because of her relationship with Klaus. I personally think Esther loved Klaus the most because of who his father was. She babies him in a way she never did with the other's. We even see Finn resenting her treatment of Klaus because of it.

Yes, she does give him the necklace which ends up making Mikael target him to "make him strong." But, one, let's blame the abuser and not shift blame to a fellow victim. And two, what would you have her do? Sure the answer is probably, don't have an affair, but then your fav character wouldn't be there. Also, again, she was young and naïve. She also gets more blame for having an affair than Mikael does for beating a child. She made a mistake and did everything she could to protect Klaus from that mistake. Was it misguided, maybe, but her intention was good. She wanted to protect Klaus from Mikael finding out.

The fact that Esther can forgive Klaus for brutally murdering her shows how much she loved him. Her wanting to kill her kids later is honestly understandable. She never knew the side affects of the spell she performed. She watched her children become the worst versions of themselves for a thousand years and felt the guilt for every life they took. She also knew peace existed since she had been on the other side. When she first tried to take their lives, they would have all just gone to the other side. She didn't want them to suffer but wanted the pain they inflicted on the world to end.

The Misogyny of it all

The reason I say it is misogyny, is because every favorite character in this show has done absolutely terrible things. Klaus, and all of the Mikaelsons, are serial killers. It doesn't matter what reasons they had for doing it. Esther had her own reasons for her actions. The fact that people can't acknowledge Esther as a complex character but can do so for Klaus, Damon, Elijah, Stefan, etc. shows that it is based on misogyny. Even the fact that Dahlia, someone who kidnapped and abused a child, gets more love than Esther because Esther isn't a "perfect victim" shows it is rooted in misogyny. Men are allowed to be messy and complex but when it's a woman they are either a victim or pure evil.

I'm not saying there aren't things you can't hate her for. I hated her treatment of Elijah in Season 2 of TO and her plan to harm Hope. But to ignore the complexity of the character and pretend she wasn't a victim is just harmful rhetoric. Women are allowed to be complex and morally grey.

[iceglade]

i made a thread on twitter about this but i've been thinking about vanilla vs royal i cant handle how happy i am that royal has made ppl like akechi more, not just for "hes hot" reasons bc ppl love that but winning over reddit* folks who dislike many fanon takes for being too wooby,

not that i particularly care for Wooby bc ive been in fandom for ages and i like seeing ppl happy - i know theres a certain degree of allowance when it comes to twisting canon characterization for content, because you're the content creator, its in your hands and cmon- 

but especially with royal i think akechi's serious edge "won over a lot of people" who can now respect him for how he approached refusing the dream world, i think thats something they can understand and appreciate - ESPECIALLY when a lot of ppl's beef with vanilla akechi was "daddy doesnt love me boo hoo" which is a GROSS misunderstanding/simplification of his EXTREMELY complex character, which was barely covered or etc bc of vanilla's horrid writing -- over all! its not JUST him - BUT, royal provided such a good opportunity to show off akechi's character, through giving him more screentime and VERY IMPORTANTLY: Plot Relevance like how, say mementos mission shows off joker's need to be helpful bc hes a deep-feeling person, or scramble showing off haru and makoto and the other thieves by drawing them against the new characters to compare and contrast and give them Time to BE, - royal gave akechi time to recover from the frankly AWFUL vanilla narrative decision to shoot and shove him off like chopped liver and never mention him again, so that many ppl's impression of akechi goro was of an incomprehensible, annoying character who blew up and then acted like he dont knowww know bodaay haghnaghnahgna   

i joke but SERIOUSLY a bad first AND last impression, REALLY... 

ahh. im just surprised !! every time someone says they like him or that they disliked him earlier but dont post-royal or etc etc it always takes me by surprise even after all this time !! it makes me very happy -though even as i focus on how happy i am that people like his character, even streamers talking about his ass (what ass... ... cindy thats bone) or etc-  i shouldnt, but i still count it as a sort of win because my standards are so low ;-;.. i dont like sexualizing characters (of any gender or sexuality, dont worry ^-^'') but the point of it all is that the amount of stannery is .. stunning i think, from all ends of the fandom, when i think about how nervous vanilla felt to me. if im wording this all right.

-- that being said. obviously there are ppl who still dont like him, VEHEMENTLY, and everyone gets so passionate about him and everything that tension and fights erupt very very quickly - it makes me wonder what about royal didnt hit with them, but hit with other people, in a Genuinely Curious kind of way. not that im not suuper passionate about goroboying, because, i am !! royal makes me very happy and i stay out of fights as best as i can because i know, ACUTELY, how PAINFUL it is to have a hyperfixation broken. nauseous furious shaking heart aching - its heartbreak !! i'd rather die before i inflicted a pain like that on someone. + id rather remember something for the love i felt for it than the harm.

(though while i'm here, people who were in the "# p5r spoilers" tag remember what happened a little while ago shortly after royal jpn came out , though that's for a whole other post about the fascinating history/sociology of that particular event, 👁✨)

- its not about me having to choose between a lesser of two evils. thats not my point

no matter how intensely my heart is in it, i want to be able to say that you can feel how you feel about characters, though any misinformation sits badly with me in hyperfixation hell. funnily enough, while back on the topic of Agency, which goro is in some dire need of - which may be the root of why so many femme-presenting folk or lesbians are fond of him, + respecting women + sex workers + etc GORO AKECHI CAN BE SOMEONE SO PERSONAL ACTUALLY-

* - oh, backreading my own post - i didnt mean to specify redditors as if they're the only ppl i'm talking about, but it was the first to come to mind ; i'm just thinking a lot about how it seems like people really like the light royal was able to display him in, both as a delightfully entertaining UNHINGED EDGELORD and a very focused, goal-oriented, respectable ally, to the point that people are MUCH more open about how much they love him nowadays, which does bring me no end of joy - its no surprise that the new appreciation, as well as atlus ... highlighting ..... aspects ...... of blask ...... and the new content, of course the fandom treats him like this, - thats fandom. this is how people do i suppose. from a witness' viewpoint. hdngngm

i see all i know all 👁 i will keep all of my opinions right here and then one day i will die. but. i'll be honest. despite everything. im actually really happy.

[sofyreneko]

just finished a:tla, and from someone who never got spoiled more than “zuko is redeemed” here’s my opinions, and i have a LOT to talk about:

I FREAKING LOVE SOKKA, like so much, i don’t think i’ve ever loved a character so quickly ever, and didn’t changed my mind throught the whole show, best character, usually im really picky and i change favorite characters as the show goes, and eventually settle than for one when the show ends or don’t even do that, but sokka? since moment one i loved him, and didn’t change or even doubted his place as my favorite character on the whole show, even though as i realize he was the comic relief guy, i trully felt like most of the time he held the braincell of the team.

why hadn’t i seen more of toph??? like she is pretty important since the second season and i hadn’t seen fanart of her anywhere, and missing avatar stuff when you like similar stuff is pretty hard, so why isn’t there MORE content about her? i love her, she is a big part of disabled representation, as i only saw other blind character and that was daredevil, so it saddens me that i hadn’t heard about her earlier

on the other side, im unsure about katara, i don’t hate her but i certainly don’t love her, there’s a lot of things about her character that just don’t click with me, i know she isn’t a bad person, she has really good morals but there are things like the whole revenge thing, bloodbending and stepping in the middle of the fight between zuko and azula, yikes;. there’s some things about the writing of katara missing her mom a lot while sokka barely remembers her, that felt off with me... why did katara had such a strong bond with her mom but sokka didn’t? and i understand it must have been trauma for when she was a child and survivors guilt, but some moment she felt like obsessed with it (im talking about the revenge episode) and it saddens me that she had to step in as the “mother of sokka” even though she was his sister, like i said i dont dislike her, her character is very complex and well done, but there are these very small moments where i just felt angry at her for the way she behaved and wanted to slap her into reason, and then grap her in a blanket and protect her from the world.

i felt like the firelord supreme or whatever he was called has a very bland character, zero development, the real villain was his traumatized crazy child. typical Big Bad Guy, nothing special about him, just his “he is the most powerful, he sits on a chair 24/7”.

i REALLy dont like zuko’s uncle, he just gave me so much creepy old dude vibes, i know he was like good in the end and this really good firebender that was a great role-model to zuko and was really wise, but the way he treated women? some a lot YOUNGER than him? very rapey, very creepy, im sorey i cant forget about it.

i don’t like the way romantic relationship were handled on the show, zuko and the ninja lady had like 0 development and felt VERY one-sided, like we really didn’t know much about them other than ninja lady used to have a crush on zuko and then out of no where they were in love even thought their personality crashed and they never once talked about emotions... just a really flat relationship and zuko had better chemistry with like EVERYONE else, sokka and moon lady were a thong even though moon lady was with another person and they met for like a day, sokka had feelings for her than obviously didn’t left when she became the moon, and sokka and suki met for an afternoon and fell in love and stayed in love even after spent a lot of time separated and sokka having another relationship in the middle and still having feelings for the other girl and like NEVER talking, and katara and avatar being one-sidded the WHOLE show minus for the last two minutes of the last episode were they don’t talk they just kiss??? what is going on on these relationships??

on that note i really like how the other relationship, the more platonic ones, were treated. zuko and his uncle had a really strong and powerful relationship that make me tear eyed a lot of times, his uncle as i said before was a great role-model for him and wise, the way you could see their father-son bond growing to the series was heartwarming, so it really hurt when zuko went to see him in jail after dissappointint him. how azula’s friends turn on her after overcoming their fear of her and that turning her to her reaching point? chefs kiss, it really gave and insight inside azula’s character and it made her friend feel more like 3d people with actual personalities. when azula her friends and zuko talked about their past? BEAUTIFUL, the small way to show that in some way they trust each other and the understanding that it gave to their characters, it was a small moment but i really liked it. aangs rage after loosing his life long friend? devastatingly beautiful, the bond between him and appa was a lot stronger than i had realized, the whole appa’s episode of him being lost and wanting to go back to aang? ive never cried so MUCH. aangs whole character? the way he developed? the way they showed us his fears and how he overcame them, how he feared the avatar state and how he refused to kill the phoenix king? trully brilliant.

there’s just so many scenes and moment that held so much raw emotion and it was done beautifully i LOVED it.

overall i REALLY liked the show, it was so so GOOD and it had me hooked to the tv for hours, it really deserves the hype it had and im pretty sure im going to become part of the fandom really quickly.

in other news, i love my boy and everything but zuko speaks really dramatically everything, like he’s an emo on a shakespear play, plz tell me yall make fun of him for that

[anti-marxistcult]

more people should, nothing to fear unless they try to eat you or sit on you

same

good point

the same fucktards that would bully young original writers online that their female characters were “mary sues” and would bash feminine female characters are the ones promoting actual mary sue characters to carry out their agenda. you can always tell feminists and sjws are hypocrites and police other people online when you dive far enough into their social media history 

you’re not sexist for having opinions about a film that is marketed with feminist sjw preachy points, they can shove that shit up their ideological asses. people calling it out have every right to do so. nothing to do with sexism. entertainment should be used as propaganda. ideologues cant handle criticism and label you over used insults and accusations because they have no counter argument because they are using pop culture for propaganda to push their agenda

brie is a turn off, celebrities on social media that prove what major douchebags live in silicone valley tend to ruin their box office numbers, i.e Shia Labeouf

i think you nailed why people hate the trailers, they are telling us she is a hero and worthy of respect and nothing less, perfect mary sue all powerful = boring

good point

any medium that thinks that it is “empowering” to women to rip down men or piggyback off men’s success are stuck up hacks with zero talent and are delusional. it is empowering to see any character train, work hard and learn form mistakes, i guess the working hard and learning from mistakes i why sjws leave that part out, they dont believe in working for success and admitting faults 

heroes struggle and triumph over obstacles and make sacrifice. now sjws think a hero is people who claim they are heroes. savior complex confirmed

we’re going to get this kind of bullshit alot, they’re setting their sites on fucking up anime franchises now too

their agenda doesnt care about the past, unless it is their revisionism or cherrypicking history to shame whitey and men

she is a plank of wood, throw her on the dumpster fire.

you shouldnt be silenced because of your sex. modern left are hypocrites.

Yeah well they care more about the agenda than story telling. Have you seen modern cartoons lately? it is more about cheap shit than quality.

It is simple isn’t it? see a character as a person first, personality, the traits of gender, race, sexuality, beliefs are secondary - it is how EVERYONE is then able to relate to the character because they are not getting blocked for not sharing a certain trait with the character. Identity politics is racist weapon far lefties use to segregate people and then hype up or vilify certain demographics due to the “oppression stack” garbage. It is the opposite of equality.

oh yeah when they call us women that are against their agenda “bigots with internalized misogyny” haha like that is even a fact or intelligent response from the programmed NPCs, they get all their points from their extremist college professors. They did the same shit and still do in fandom when you call the feminists out on their obsessive queer shipping fetish because they have a pathological version to masculinity and heterosexuality, and bash female character love interests for “getting in the way”. They are the ones with internalized misogyny, always have been, they hate femininity and believe it to be weakness, so they feminize straight male characters and make them queer so no one can criticize their ideological social engineering activism though pop culture because they will just label you another worn out insult.

[fuckblizzardbearlover]

“Reasons why Alita Battle Angel is better than Captain Marvel”

(to fans of Alita Battle Angel. this isnt a take down or insult to your movie. I know some people loved it and i’m sure it was well done. The point of this post is to criticize people using your fav movie as a cheap excuse to pit women against each other)

a strange sentiment seeing as there is no reason to compare the two. I can imagine sexist people who see women as outliers and thus “there can be only 1 good female lead movie” would make such a claim. Most normal people if they dont like a movie just dont watch it.

but i was curious as to why i keep seeing this considering i’ve heard no one talk about it, it kinda passed without the majority of people noticing it, and the fact that Captain Marvel is obviously one of Marvel’s best films ever due to the sheer amount of people praising it for everything including acting, humor, action, comedy and the way it handles its social issues (which ALL marvel movies have)and the sheer money its gained in money

I hadnt watched it yet so i went to other people for info and figured the “your milage may vary” section of tvtropes (the part where wiki-ers comment on aspects of the item that cant be agreed upon”

as i thought it dealt with many things i figured would put Atila low bar

“ A common criticism was that many tropes in the film have grown so omnipresent in sci-fi cinema over the past couple of decades that they no longer feel fresh. “

(my point being its ‘nothing fresh or new”)

“Critics think the film is somewhere between mediocre and okay, but viewers and especially fans of the source material so far seem to love it (on Rotten Tomatoes, the critic approval is 60%, while for audiences it's 93%). It's been lauded by the anime community as the first live-action Hollywood anime adaptationnote to not suck. “

I.e. Its good...for an anime adaption

So why then are people trying to weaponize Alita against Captain Marvel which based on its general reception is an objectively better movie?

“Fandom Rivalry: With Captain Marvel, another sci-fi Feminist Fantasy movie set to release one month from Alita's release. While some simply see Alita as the more visually-interesting and original movie, there's a strange case of this trope in a lot of the rivalry is less down to the Alita fandom criticizing Captain Marvel and more a group of toward certain social inclinations using Alita as an outlet to attack Captain Marvel. Following Brie Larson making certain statements that were interpreted as being political, Captain Marvel came under fire from the latter group drumming up support for the Alita at the expense of the Marvel film as a way of making a statement against Disney... Which anyone familiar with the corporate side of things can tell you would be effectively pointless, considering that Disney is set to purchase Fox shortly after Captain Marvel is released, and supporting either film will be to the benefit of the same corporate body post-acquisition. Conversely, a number of Captain Marvel fans who are mindful of the latter group have actually told others to support Alita to support the creation of more female-led films.“

See Atila is the pet project of an overblown male director (the guy who made avatar) meanwhile the most important person in captain marvel wants more diversity which white men (and POC and white women who’ve been brainwashed by their ways) find to be antethetical to their existence “ if other people have stuff then we dont rule the world” mentality.

Alita has a stock super evil villain, while CM’s villain is a complex character who used his personal relationship to manipulate the hero and take advantage of her (see the prevalence of “nice guy” and “hookup artist” in male culture)

Alita has an anime waifu with unnatural features despite the ‘realism’ of the movie. while one of hte first things captain marvel was criticized for was her costume didnt hug her ass enough

There is nothing wrong with romantic stories, there is nothing wrong with women heroes whos story revolves around a man, nothing wrong with anime adaptions and nothing wrong with women lead films directed by a man

but maybe you should be careful about if the fellow fans you are bonding with are doing so because they just want to hurt others.