#things if the person like. repressed all the memories surrounding the trauma to the point that they weren't aware that anything was wrong

[cursedthing]

Update on Nome. Realized some stuff about Nome and now we are so fucking normal about it.

y'all are lucky that i never talk about Nome (newest oc) here

[dyelwi]

I’m not on Twitter so I don’t see a lot of negative things about Athena. How exactly are people ableist to her? /gq (I don’t doubt it, I’m curious though 😅)

Hi, yeah I feel like going on that rant now lol. Gonna clarify first that this isn’t some Big New Discourse, rather it’s just an observation I’ve personally made from seeing the way people talk about Athena, especially on Twitter but here to an extent as well. Putting this under a read more because it got VERY long. It’s sort of a character analysis and sort of a fandom analysis??? Idk lol.

Athena is mentally disabled. This is heavily implied at LEAST, though I’d say it’s straight up canon. Even if you don’t subscribe to the common interpretation of some of her experiences (sensory issues, trouble communicating especially when young but even in the present to an extent, her relating to robots more than people as a child) it’s clear that these things actively disabled her at the very least as a child. There’s some bigger posts going more into how autism coded she is but that’s actually not even what I see people being ableist about!

Even if you look at her and think that the autism is just a headcanon, it’s pretty undeniable that she has severe trauma that presents much like PTSD, especially with how the main symptoms she displays are flashbacks and repressing memories of the trauma, which I wanted to note are actually real things that happen but are used in fiction especially often to portray severe trauma. PTSD is a mental disorder that most agree on as a disability from what I’ve seen (phrased this way because there’s no real list of what disorders are and aren’t a disability, it matters more how it impacts an individual, but PTSD often impacts people in ways that are disabling) and sure enough we see that it disables Athena.

Athena has trauma specifically surrounding murder and court trials. And she works as a defense attorney!!! This is important because it means she is frequently around things that trigger her (in the way the word is meant to be used, not the meme-y way people sometimes use it). It’s like if Edgeworth became an elevator repair guy or something. And sure enough, we see her struggle because of her trauma being triggered. This is something that happens not only in ace attorney 5, the game which most explores her trauma, but also to an extent in ace attorney 6 when Nahyuta basically tries to bully her out of defending Bucky (I love Nahyuta but this is not his nicest moment lol). She begins to question if she really can do a case by herself. She hears the feelings of everyone in the room (if you want to bring the likely autism into it, this is a point for that as she’s having some sensory overload), and she reaches perhaps one of her lowest points in the case. She is struggling, due to her disability(-ies if we include likely autism) because Nahyuta and the gallery (more so their emotions she heard but same thing) triggered her. You could argue she doesn’t like go into full panic flashback mode here but to me at least, this doesn’t mean she isn’t struggling or that she isn’t triggered. She’s probably been able to start healing after aa5 after all. Regardless of that, even Simon specifically says that Nahyuta is using her hearing abilities against her to try to win, so if you’re considering the autism as an aspect of this that feels like more than enough. And so, Simon Blackquill, who sees one of his closest ever friends struggling in protecting something he cares about, steps in to help as her assistant.

People hate this. And I was surprised when I learned that. Simon is one of my favorite characters and one of my favorite parts of this case. But people apparently blame misogyny for him coming to help her, when if we’re looking at this from the perspective of the ace attorney writers they clearly just wanted to give Simon some (deserved) screentime and use the typical ace attorney setup where there’s a character assisting the defense attorney. It was weird going into this that Athena was alone, quite frankly, as that only happens on rare occasions in the ace attorney formula. Athena is not being treated as a pathetic woman that needs help when other characters wouldn’t. The other defense attorneys in this series need help rather often actually. And Athena is a defense attorney in an ace attorney game. And in-universe, she is a disabled person working in an environment where she is constantly at risk of her disability, well…. Disabling her. And I think most people would argue that disabled people needing help isn’t a bad thing! But for some reason, people refuse to give Athena the same grace they’ve given other characters in the past who weren’t even in as triggering of situations as she was in this moment.

And so people talk about their dream Athena-led cases, where she needs no assistant. I understand where they’re coming from, if you can’t tell I’m a HUGE Athena fan and I want to see her character grow and develop, I want to see her get her own game. But often people really like to talk about the idea of her not needing help, being able to do a case on her own. Not only is this rare and difficult for the average ace attorney defense lawyer, but it begins to feel a lot like when, in the real world, people try to convince disabled people to work through their disability or push the idea that growing and being their best self doesn’t involve accommodations. This is generally accepted to be a pretty shitty and ableist way to look at disabled people that is often tied to what people mean when talking about how people can treat overcoming disability as a sort of inspiration porn. When people say that Athena should be able to defend on her own and imply that this would make her better somehow, it feels like they’re saying that in order to be better at their jobs disabled people should just get over their disabilities to be stronger. Which I know is not something a lot of people that say these things about Athena would actually agree with! I don’t think people are doing this maliciously. But I wish people understood that this is what I hear when they say these things, as someone with multiple mental disabilities myself.

I relate to Athena a lot. I have, since her introduction, seen myself in her more than I have almost any other fictional character. And I wish people understood that what they imply when they talk about her like this can hurt a bit. I worry a lot about being able to do my future career effectively (I’m a college student rn hence the future part) and so to hear people imply these things about Athena?? I feel it by extension. You can say I’m just projecting or whatever, I don’t care, but I think people need to understand that disability is a big part of Athena’s character and that how they think about her can reflect some subtle, unconscious thoughts and feelings they may have about people like her that exist in the real world. I know ace attorney is just a video game series. I know that it’s typical of writers to treat things like this as something a character will push past to become stronger. But it’s a bit disheartening to hear so many people agree all the time, especially when the game itself hasn’t even done that with Athena’s arc, at least not yet.

tldr Athena is a victim of fandom ableism more than writer misogyny in this specific aspect surrounding her capabilities as a defense attorney who is written as a disabled character and who exists within the ace attorney setup

[officialpenisenvy]

confession I'm a trans girl and I have pretty bad OCD and one of the obsessions that I've had to deal with recently surrounds whether or not I dealt with sexual abuse as a child but just entirely repressed the memory of it. This is kind of exacerbated by not really being able to remember chunks of my childhood/teenage years very well for other separate reasons. I have like no idea if something happened or not or how legitimate these concerns are on my part and its very possible its like, exclusively an OCD fixation. Anyway its kind of led to me repeatedly considering hooking up with older men even though I'm personally not very interested in them or really sex in general in order to see if it like, unlocks a repressed traumatic memory or leads to some sort of epiphany regarding this fixation. But also sex scares me so I've never done that even though I feel like I have to eventually and I probably will at some point if the fixation gets worse. It seems like ur kind of a gay pederasty expert so what do I do in this situation gio

gay pederasty expert on the case my darling! honestly im known for making horrible choices with my own sex life, like if i was in your situation i would probably fuck a bunch of older men to see if it does something, but i also know that that's definitely not a good thing to do, especially if you're uninterested in sex and/or scared of it. i would say for sure don't have sex with the specific purpose of triggering something in you, whether it be a memory or an epiphany or whatever it may be! if you have traumatic memories you want to unearth they will come up sooner or later, and by putting yourself in unpleasant sexual situations you might remember them, sure, but you will also probably give yourself even more trauma and/or negative feelings towards sex, something you already don't like the idea of from what i gather.

following up on that, if sex scares you or puts you off for whatever reason you don't have to do it now or ever in your life, it is entirely up to you if and when and how you want or don't want to have sex — if you do decide to face your fear of sex and actually try it, please be careful with yourself, be very mindful and present in your body and make sure to stop if anything makes you uncomfortable (and as sad as it is to say this, try to make sure you're with someone who will honour that request to stop), and keep in mind that even the gentlest most consensual non-threatening sex can bring up memories and flashbacks in people with sexual trauma! i really wish you all the best my dear, i hope you're safe and wish you good luck on your journey, whether you end up finding out some terrible truths about your past or simply having to deal with an unfounded fixation. lots of love ❤️❤️

[compassionatereminders]

Anon who originally said that Kat's definition might be harmful or hurtful or at the very least controversial.

I didn't mean to start discourse and actually wanted to help Kat avoid it.

But given the following discussion I feel the need to expand, but it's ok if you'd prefer not to share in public.

What I was trying to say was not that DID isn't a specific thing, but I do think that setting up very rigid definitions can be harmful.. especially to people who don't have classic DID but who still have DID-like symptoms but might not fit the exact narrative. I was such a person. I'm not claiming to have DID atm, but for a while I did. I still can't say for sure that I don't. But the classic narratives surrounding DID, and how they are seen as the point of validity for my experiences, was extremely harmful to me personally.

I developed blackouts and delusions about past trauma etc as a result, that I'm still recovering from. I'm not saying all resurfacing memories in people with DID are fake, I'm just saying that my dissociative compartmentalization experiences, together with the discourse that said I'm faking my experience unless it comforms with the exact narrative, hurt me. It triggered my other mental health issues badly, and what was once a healthy coping mechanism developed beyond my control.

So while the very strict definition could be argued not to hurt very clear cut cases, from personal experience, it can really fuck with people who have other things going on alongside some profound 'identity compartmentalization' experiences.

But I was also speaking on behalf of others who may still be diagnosed with/identifying as having DID. Because some people have all the symptoms while for example not knowing of any very early childhood trauma. And telling them their experience is invalid is not helpful. Because while it isn't particularly typical of DID, false memories are a thing that can be induced/happen in general.

I'm also not sure that it's helpful to define DID based on childhood trauma, when it's also recognized that it may not be remembered? I mean, given that, we can't actually know whether it sometimes just happens regardless of early trauma. Bc we have no way to check for that, if the response to someone saying that happened, is to say that they must have repressed it.

I just think overall it's dangerous to give simplified versions of the truth as a clear cut Truth. Because reality is always complicated, and my personal experience is that I got caught up in all this (hello austistic black and white thinking my beloved) and it hurt me (hello psychosis my nemesis, we meet again).

I wanted to make it clear what I was talking about, bc I see that there was some confusion. No hard feelings towards any anons.

But this is my personal experience. Hope that helps clarify.

Good day to you all!

I think you deserve to get to elaborate publicly after all the discourse about your ask, but this will be the last ask I'll answer on the subject of defining DID.

[villainsandvictimsalliance]

Idk how to tell you, last anon, but feeling guilt for hurting others is something your environment teaches you to do. And if you were raised and taught for 14-15 years since you were 5 to NOT feel guilt of regret about hurting others and treat it as something normal by people like AFO and Ujiko, who themselves don't feel guilt about hurting others, it's probably, most likely, will become your norm anf will dull your sense of regret. It's astonishing that Shigaraki still feels sick when he kills - if anything, it only proves that he's a very strong-willed person and does, in fact, feels guilt, just doesn't understand it.

I've been insisting a LOT about how Tomura can't be judge by normal rules, because had no normal life.

Because Tomura had the opportunity to live within society for his first 5 years of life, he has a set of emotions and behaviors that come from those years. He was severely taught to feel guilt and shame because Kotaro was always punishing him, but it was a extreme method and Tomura ended up twisting the meaning of guilt and shame. After that, let's not forget Tomura lost his memory. He didn't remember clearly his first 5 years of life until MY Villain Academia, and even the reason why he leveled up during his fight with Re-Destro was because he needed to be free of his guilt and shame.

Now, teach a kid to feel constantly guilty and ashamed, make that kid go through a severe trauma and tell the kid now that his hatred is a good thing, that he needs to keep feeling it and that he can destroy whatever he doesn't like.

Why you have is a human whose normal thinking process says:

"I feel very bad/guilty because I did something bad / I hurt someone / made a mistake > I don't want to feel this bad > so the solution must be eliminating the what makes me feel bad"

What I find interesting is that Tomura still has the ability to care and feel bad about things, but it was AFO who normalized using violence to eradicate any problem, instead of work on it in a more healthy way.

Tomura is also very aware of his role in the cycle of violence, for him there's no breaking that cycle without exposing everyone to it, so people can stop pretending it's not a problem, so people is forced into doing something about it. And good or bad, Tomura achieved that. All Tomura has gone through showed the world the same violence Tomura has suffered, to the point life will never be the same.

The fact that Tomura still has in his heart the kid he used to be, that's impressive. He misses his dog, he was able to forgive Hana and tell her it was okay, he was able to be a child with his mother. He is able to know he's on a dangerous position and he needs help. He has never stopped looking for help, in fact.

People tends to separate Tenko and Tomura as if they were two persons, but they are only the same person in two different points of time and surrounded by different environments. So one should ask, could Tomura be different if he wasn't surrounded by the life AFO build for him? Never forget AFO even built Shigaraki Tomura from the name, from the looks, from the feelings. And to avoid Shigaraki changing in a way AFO couldn't control, he kept Tomura away and isolated from society for years.

Both Tenko and Tomura are very real, but Tomura is the person Tenko was forced to be in order to survive. Tenko was always being repressed by his family and Tomura is the maximum expression of such repression, so having Tenko in Tomura's heart is the visual key to understand that Tomura is not just a monster, but a person longing for freedom and change, for connection, for humanity.

The most people simplifies Tomura's situation, the worst their takes are going to be. That's exactly why the villain-hero narrative / rethoric doesn't work, because it oversimplifies a complex social, political, economical situation. If people want to see everything black and white, they are going to miss crucial facts and clues to understand the plot as a whole.

[ratcandy]

Subcon Forest Analysis

Hi everyone I'm here to spill my aggressive overflowing thoughts on Subcon Forest and what it represents because it's been driving me insane since I finished the Sleepy Subcon time rift. Okay let's go. Obvious spoilers for AHIT ahead so proceed with caution.

This is also very, very long.

Disclaimer/warning: I will be discussing abusive/unhealthy relationships in this analysis. I mean. Vanessa. Come on. Also, there is a section on the nooses, and that delves, of course, into mentions of suicide. It will be sectioned off and easily skipped, but if you'd rather be safe and skip the entire post, that's completely understandable! Please stay safe. <3

Alright. Main point to be had here:

Subcon Forest is a giant extended metaphor for Snatcher's mind and character.

You all get to now listen to me spout nonsense about metaphors and symbolism because I'm a sucker for analysis and I'm given an opportunity to go ham. So perish.

The Ice

Let's start with the most obvious and most glaring thing in Subcon. The ice. It's everywhere. Not just outside Vanessa's manor, either; no, it's throughout the village, too. Shows up in the well and in random locations sprinkled about. When it comes to literal plot, we know that ice is just what lingers after Vanessa's wintery curse on Subcon. But going deeper and analyzing the meaning behind it?

Well, let's look at this from the perspective I've suggested. Subcon Forest being an extended metaphor for Snatcher's mind and character. A symbol for Vanessa then litters his mind, enough where it's certainly noticeable at first but blends in more easily once more of Subcon is unlocked to Hat Kid. This is clearly meant to be his lingering trauma, whether or not he wants to acknowledge it. Which he doesn't, as he never mentions it directly in his forest (that I can recall). Her influence plagues him, as to be expected with the traumatic experiences he went through with her. Breaking the ice is something Hat Kid must do in order to fulfill the wishes of the Fire Spirits (another subject I'll get into shortly), which, if self-indulgently playing with the found family idea, could mean that Hat Kid is helping him heal; if indirectly. Even if fulfilling the Fire Spirits' wish to die is... counterproductive, in that measure, which I'm now getting ahead of myself so hold on a sec!!

Vanessa. Ice. Everywhere. Traces of it all over his forest. That's the effects of an abusive relationship! Especially in a worst-case scenario where... yknow! One party in the relationship dies! So of course ice would be everywhere.

In and of itself, ice is a common symbol in literature and other forms of media. In this case, it's presented as an antagonistic force; emphasis is placed upon freezing and the harm that comes with it. The cold is unwelcoming, threatening, merciless. Snow can act as an insulating force, at least, but ice cannot. It can only make things colder.

A slight stretch: Seeing as this game deals a lot with time shenaniganry, I'm not sure if it'd be too out of left field to connect "freezing" with the theme of time. Yknow. Frozen in time. Both parties here, Snatcher and Vanessa, would be in this frozen state. One largely repressing it and never fully moving on, and the other doomed to her isolation ever since the event in question. They never moved past that moment after the Prince and florist's interaction.

The Fire Spirits (& the Portraits)

I'll put a slight warning here for suicidal ideation, if only because... it's the Fire Spirits we're talking about. It's not as grossly in-detail as the noose discussion will be, though, so make of that what you will.

To me, the Fire Spirits are a very interesting case. After all, they're fire. They're a direct contrast to the ice, thus being the only thing we're shown that could potentially melt it. The Fire Spirits, in my opinion, represent hope or a strength to continue. A strength to move on after troubles of the past.

...And that hope wants to die.

The Fire Spirits wish to burn out, to leave this mortal coil and abandon the forest to the cold. They make no effort to melt the ice, they simply dance, blissfully ignorant towards their surroundings. This being a metaphor for Snatcher's own hope for moving on is made all the more obvious by the fact he wants them gone. The first contract is to kill the Fire Spirits, to kill the hope. Perhaps he believes that sort of thing to be fruitless or naïve, so it only clutters his mind or has him foolishly optimistic at points. So, get rid of it. And the hope is happy to oblige.

(That, or their willingness to leave the forest to its own suffering and not aid in the ice's thaw angers him. Besides the whole "bark bark growl I can't get to parts of my forest because of them!!" which... also could represent a naïve hope clouding his judgement, not allowing him to see a bigger picture. But hope can't all be lost if one wants to move forward...)

A little side-tangent now on the portraits! And it's another slight stretch but the idea is in my head and I can't let it go. Portraits are another common symbol, usually being a physical representation of a memory or idea. For our purposes, let's say they're memories. I know in canon they appear to just hold souls captive or something but for now we're just Ignoring That(tm). The Fire Spirits have to burn the portraits to disappear. See where I'm going with this, maybe?

Instead of handling bad memories (or perhaps memories of the past in general) in any healthy manner, Snatcher chooses to forget/repress them, which just allows his hope to progressively die out.

I'm really hoping this is making sense because it makes a lot of sense to me but I might be insane rn

The Fact that this is a Forest

Forest symbolism breakdown! What's a forest usually mean in literature? "Traditionally, the forest has come to represent being lost, exploration and potential danger as well as mystery and 'other worldliness'." Okay. Yeah. Fair enough. That certainly works with the whole aesthetic we've got going on. Wood usually is life, growth and strength. But the trees of subcon are all dead. So what about that? It stands for death, big whoop, very spooky, we know Snatcher's dead and so are the children, yadda yadda wowie wowie. But. :) The trees in Subcon look a lot like trees that were scorched in a forest fire. Don't believe me?

(You could also argue they're just regular marsh/swamp trees bUT SSHHSUUHSH HANG ON HEAR ME OUT LOOK LOOK,)

What I believe to have happened was a controlled fire to rid the forest of the majority of its ice and snow. Likely done by Snatcher. It leaves behind a very desolate, depressing, barren scene... but. What else do dead/burnt trees symbolize? Rebirth. After all, controlled fires happen to make way for new trees to take the place of old ones. Some trees only drop seeds in fires/hot temperatures, so new ones take root and begin anew. Weird. It's almost like... I dunno. Snatcher was given some sorta second chance, given he's not just a corpse in Vanessa's cellar. So were the subconites. Another life given then by Snatcher. All connected I tell ya!!

Generally, aside from that, forests have many connotations. Mystery, isolation, claustrophobia; a place to dwell on regrets, or the past; to worry over one's future; to seek escape from or escape inside of... hmgmrnmm!

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- T / W -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

The Nooses

The t/w is given at the top and another cut-off point will follow the bottom of this, for those that would like to skip. This will delve into talk of suicide and abusive tactics used by abusers. Please don't read if it will upset you or make you feel unsafe!!!

Personally, I cannot stand the nooses, but that's just due to my own triggers. Were there a way to hide those from the game or replace the damned talking ones with anything else. I would take it. In a heartbeat. But I can still appreciate the potential analysis to be had with them. So now i'm gonna talk about it despite how uncomfortable it will make me to do so. yEa

So, what about 'em? There are three types of nooses seen in Subcon. At least that I remember but I didn't really go looking for them. Empty ones, ones containing empty subconites, and the talking ones.

Nooses in general obviously can hint towards suicidal thoughts or behaviors of the characters that interact with them. If saying Subcon is Snatcher's mind, it could suggest that he suffered from some sort of suicidal thoughts in life (or currently, if second death is possible... or if he never truly died... or maybe he's trying to figure that out...which has given me... a separate idea...uh oh). But. And hear me out. Different perspective.

A talking noose. I hate them with a fiery passion that is unmatched. But think of the packed symbolism of a noose that talks. And think more about what it says. "I wouldn't mind being strapped around a cute neck like yours." "Be careful now, I don't want to see you meet a miserable end anywhere, but with me." Oddly, a lot of what the noose says seems almost... endearing? One could argue it's a way of luring someone to put it around their necks, which in and of itself is a whole lot to unpack when it comes to suicidal thoughts beckoning one forward; painting itself as something romantic, almost. But. Here's a wild idea, now. What if the nooses, at least the talking ones, are another symbol for Vanessa?

They're tinted blue, after all. While Vanessa's scheme is more red, one could argue two things: One, ice. Blue. Ice. yeah. Or two, the fact that Snatcher's scheme is more purple. Blue and red... make... purple. So, for all we know, Snatcher's current state was a compound effort between suicidal thoughts and Vanessa's treatment of him. Perhaps he even found a way to put himself out of his misery before freezing/starving to death. (I know he has dialogue that argues against that, but... are we certain Snatcher would be the kind to admit suicide over freezing to death?... I don't think so.)

At any rate, a common threat by those in "control" of an abusive relationship is that of killing themselves should the other person not do as they desire. It's a cruel form of emotional manipulation to get their way, worse off if the other party is an empathetic individual. As a person who has been the empathetic individual in relationships like this... I would know. I've been here, unfortunately So, it's not completely out of the question to say Vanessa could've used some tactic like that, even before the whole... cellar ordeal. Did she? I dunno. I'm tossing ideas around. But if she did, the threats of such would sit around in the Prince's mind easily. Even if she has a reputation of not going through with it. It doesn't matter. That shit sticks with you forever, that scare, the potential of it ever being true, is horrifying and it ruins you. I'm projecting, Squirtle.

Still. A noose cannot hang itself. It has to have a victim.

...yea.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- T / W PASSED -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Misc. Ideas

- The spiders: Aside from the usual things spiders can be chalked up to symbolizing - toxicity, alluring danger, just... general pain - I like the potential wordplay that can happen here. Yknow. A black widow. Say the Prince and Vanessa were married when one died. What would that leave Vanessa? A widow. ...She's red and black, too. Yknow. Like a black widow. HA wordplay is fun isn't it?

- Snatcher's tree: Love this place, love sitting in here. But not the point! The inside of Snatcher's tree is such a harsh juxtaposition to the rest of Subcon that it kinda throws ya off guard. After all, the dark, purples and blues then contrasted with the bright warm colors of the inside. Even the music switches over. The thorns outside aren't present indoors. Ohh yeah this is gonna be on the nose as hell but the Tree(tm) is 100% representing Snatcher's appearance/put-on personality vs. his truer nature. Spooky outside with thorns, foreboding, unwelcoming. Then the more comfortable interior. VULnerable. Have I even mentioned that the tree is HOLLOW I mean COME ON. The sturdiness of that tree? Nonexistent. He's not a sturdy guy at all no matter how he fronts

- Intrusions are unwelcome: Snatcher does not like the fact that Hat Kid sticks around in his forest. His personal space. His mind. In fact he tries desperately to get rid of her after their fight, not wanting her presence in his forest at all. He has no problem providing more contracts later on with the Death Wish thing, and he finds great entertainment in messing around with Hat Kid, so it's not just a weird sudden hatred he has for her; it's the fact that. After she's finished being useful, he no longer wants her around, lest she find some things she shouldn't find. Now he's just uncomfortable with her in his personal boundaries. Could just be a denial that she's helped him heal (breaking ice, stealing from Vanessa, being something interesting for his kids to interact with) or just not really wanting a child to get wrapped up in. All that. Most likely the former. Considering the amount of joke-hints he drops regarding his background during his Death Wish dialogue. I see you funny man, making jokes out of your trauma as a coping mechanism. Punts him

Annnd I think that's all I got, for now! I'll make an update post if I get any more sporadic ideas. If you read this whole thing, thank you!! and also!! Wow that was a lot!! Hell world. Please feel free to elaborate on any of my points or debate with me on em!! I'm always open to other ideas, just be aware that if I disagree I am not shy when it comes to debate hehehe, tho I won't be aggressive to any extent I prommy!!

Alrighty. goes to sleep goodnight

[yelow-heart]

Okay, so

Goncharov (1973), Huh? I'm kidda of speechless. But one thing caught my attention and it's about Sofia and the mystery surrounding her.

I LOVE the fact Mateo chose to never show her full face on camera. Like ever. So much that to this date we still have doubts to who is the actress who portraits her! It's bonkers dude!

And the fact that the only scenes we see very small snippets of her are on the most brutal, raw and vulnerable times?! Glorious.

But what really intrigues me is the fact that they don't show her face on the credits/end scene on the boat. One would think it'd be a powerhouse of a carthatic moment, of her finally letting go of the costumes and the characters she uses. But no. It ends with her covered in the blood of the person she wanted, messed up clothes, make up and hair, and a very bittersweet smile on her pomegranate-red lips. Beautiful and tragic. Her eyes are closed, she doesn't see the free horizon right in front of her. Wich brings the thought that: The cycle of violence might continue.. but with her, a former innocent. After all, all of them were once innocent too weren't they? She is the survivor, not the hero. She gets to carry the memories of all of those fallen behind her.

The interpretations for it can go above and beyond, and of course I have mine (Me being a repressed christian lesbian and also "perfect child" who never truly showed who I was. Only very small traits during small breakdowns or never at all. And that with trauma, like dust, doesn't matter how much we brush off, a little bit always refuses to go), but I just wanted to point it out since I haven't seen anyone talk about it yet.

[kotokoharrow]

Case Study 001: Haruka Sakurai

Note that this analysis is based around my own views. I do not present my way of interpreting Haruka as fact, and I am sharing this to see if others agree with me. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to say so and we can discuss it!

Content Warning: This analysis contains discussion of: Animal abuse and death, child abuse and death, emotional abuse, child neglect, murder, flashbacks and nightmares. Please proceed with caution if you are sensitive to any of these topics!

Evidence List:

Haruka’s Profile

Haruka’s Voice Drama

Undercover

Weakness

Two Breaths Walking

Voice Line

Timeline Convo

Character Analysis

A young male prisoner, quiet with downcast eyes. During Es’ early interrogations, he offered only a few constrained words in response. However, he has gradually become more talkative, forming an emotional bond over the course of his interviews. Once one begins to converse with him, his gentle pre-disposition is revealed.

He has a meek temperament and, even in Milgram, does not appear to be dissatisfied. Barely manages to communicate with Es and the other prisoners. However, during conversations, as if some meaning is lost along the way, there is a disconnect.

Haruka is a teenager with a very low opinion of himself, shown in his attitude in his voice drama and the lyrics of his song. When he appears in Undercover, he is shown wringing his hands together, avoiding looking at the camera, and when he finally does shows an unhappy expression. These pieces of his body language show that he is an anxious boy.

Haruka doesn’t appear to be very bright, with his song being written in hiragana, and he struggles to follow along with everything that Es says to him in his voice drama. He even says himself that he isn’t very bright. However, this is likely a result of his mother’s treatment of him, as he hasn’t been allowed to develop as he should have.

The shot in Undercover that shows his room shows young children’s toys on the floor. This, along with his speech patterns, show that he remains in a child’s mindset, despite being 17 years old. I believe that this is due to him becoming ‘stuck’ at an age where he experienced a traumatic event as a child - the event that revolved around fireworks and the girl in his MV.

Haruka’s primary motivation is love. He was neglected and emotionally abused by his mother his whole life, and so has been deprived of the love that most people receive from their parents. Despite love being his motivation, he shows in his interrogation questions that he doesn’t really understand what it is - he just knows that he wants it.

While his primary motivation is love, Haruka’s primary fear is abandonment. He is also afraid of being deceived, which again ties into his fear of abandonment. Haruka believes that everyone will leave him when they learn what he has done, and also believes that he will bring misfortune to others. This belief of bringing misfortune to others is likely a belief that his mother gave to him.

Haruka avoids situations and things that remind him of his trauma, such as animals and small children. This, as well as imagery in his MV, his mother’s treatment of him and his general personality, lead me to believe that he experiences PTSD.

The kanji in his given name means ‘far’ or ‘distant’, which likely references his personality, and the fact that he finds it difficult to get close to and communicate with others, due to having been deprived of connections for most of his life.

MV Analysis

I believe that Weakness takes place after Haruka has committed his crimes, and that it’s showing events from his past in the form of nightmares and flashbacks, which is why they appear distorted and there is heavy symbolism. As a result of this, even what we see in the MV is ambiguous as to whether it really happened, as dreams are not always literal and even with flashback-type nightmares, key facts can appear different to what happened in reality.

At the beginning of the MV, we see Haruka sitting in front of a dressing table, looking at himself in the mirror. The table is likely his mothers, as the perfume bottles on it seem to belong to a woman. Behind Haruka, we can see a window that shows that it’s daytime, but when his reflection in the mirror changes into his younger self, we can see that it is night-time outside (with red sky and a full moon). As the image changes, I believe this is Haruka experiencing a flashback, or perhaps a sign that he is having a nightmare.

I also believe that Haruka experiences PTSD as a result of his mother being emotionally abusive and neglectful towards him. I believe that this mistreatment when he was a young child explains a lot of his current personality - his behaviour fits in well with the behaviours of people who survive emotional abuse (doubting his own perception of things, a very strong negative opinion of himself, fear of abandonment).

There are many lyrics in Weakness that I believe point towards Haruka’s mother being emotionally abusive. The notable ones to me are: ‘Tell me, why are you drifting away from me? / Tell me, why do you say it’s my fault?’ and ‘If I tried and couldn’t say it / You would get angry at me and say “You’re hopeless”’. I believe that these lyrics are directed at Haruka’s mother.

As for imagery in the MV, when Haruka initially falls backwards from the dressing table, he falls into the liquid from his mother’s perfume, which shows how her treatment of him has surrounded him. Later, while he’s walking alongside her happily, she barely looks back down at him, and when adult Haruka pushes his younger self back, the following image is shown:

I believe the drawing in the background is meant to be Haruka’s mother, and his cruel treatment of his younger self is meant to show that he has internalised his mother’s abuse, going on to blame and punish himself for what he believes she would blame and punish him for.

Later, it shows Haruka as a child watching the fireworks with a girl his own age, whose face is blacked out like his mother’s. While it’s not clear what exactly happened, something bad happened to the girl, and she vanished from his life.

This is pure speculation, but I don’t think that Haruka killed the girl. I think something bad happened to her - possibly she even died - and that Haruka blames himself for what happened, whether fairly or unfairly. I believe that what happened was traumatic to Haruka, and he tried to avoid thinking about the bad part by focusing on his memory of the fireworks, which is a part of his denial.

Later, Haruka is petting a dog with his mother. Then, he goes outside to search for the dog, and comes across the dog’s body. Initially, I believed that Haruka had killed the dog, and I still think that this is a highly likely theory, as yellow roses are seen (which in flower language used to represent jealousy), and the lyrics that play during this point are ‘You praised me by saying “You’re crazy” / Thank you, I’ll do my best’ which, to me, alludes to children acting out for attention when they are being neglected, because due to the lack of positive attention they begin to see all forms of attention as a good thing, including negative attention.

However, in the timeline conversations, there is an exchange between Haruka and Shidou where Haruka has bloodied hands, and he tells a concerned Shidou that it comes from a bad habit of his, that when he’s tense he clenches his fists and his nails dig into his palms, causing them to appear bloodied.

Shidou: Sakurai-kun...? Could you show me your hand? Haruka: Hei!? No, this isn’t... it’s n-nothing... Shidou: Lend it to me. ...Your palm is covered in blood. Let’s have it disinfected. This... has it always been like this? Haruka: A-ah... I-it’s a habit... W-When I feel tense I grip my hands really tight, and my nails...

This detail has caused me to wonder if Haruka didn’t actually kill the dog. We see child Haruka looking for the dog nervously, and then appearing horrified when he finds the dogs corpse, then he looks down at his hands and sees blood on them. We also only see adult Haruka bludgeoning the dog. It’s common for people with PTSD to re-experience trauma from different perspectives, or with details changed, so it’s possible that Haruka did not kill the dog.

However, at this point, I think either explanation could be possible, so I’ll leave both of those theories here and move on.

Later, when it shows adult Haruka strangling child Haruka, I believe that this is when Haruka’s Milgram murder takes place. Before he begins strangling his child self, he is seen looking at a memory of himself being ignored by his mother, and becomes enraged, lashing out at his child self and strangling him, seemingly in an act of self-loathing.

However, I believe that Haruka is actually murdering his mother, having finally snapped and let out all of his repressed feelings. After the murder is over, I believe that Haruka was so horrified by what he did, he went into denial - which is something he has practice from doing his whole life - and the details of what he did became distorted.

In conclusion, I believe the following:

The MV takes the form of Haruka’s nightmares, which is why it’s ambiguous, unreliable and distorted

Haruka was emotionally abused and neglected by his mother since childhood

Haruka didn’t kill the girl, but he does blame himself for what happened to her

EITHER: Haruka killed the dog to try and get his mother to notice him, OR Haruka didn’t kill the dog but still in some way blames himself for the dog’s death

Haruka killed his mother directly due to his repressed feelings of anger towards her for abusing and neglecting him

Haruka is horrified by what he did, and on some level is in denial of the facts of what happened

Misc Analysis

Undercover

Haruka’s bedroom has toys that would be more appropriate in the bedroom of a young child. This shows that he is mentally stuck in a child-like state. Interestingly, there is also a drawing of a tree with two snakes that also appears during his MV. I don’t know what this means.

Haruka is shown strangling Es, which backs up the idea that Haruka’s murder happened when he was shown strangling his child self. Haruka’s mouth is wide open, showing that his murder involved heightened emotion on his part. This wasn’t a cold and calculated murder, this was a spur-of-the-moment response to something.

Interrogation Questions

I’m picking a few notable interrogation questions to analyse. In general, though, Haruka’s answers were much simpler than Yuno’s, which shows his child-like mindset and difficulty in understanding things.

Q: If one of your wishes could be granted, what would it be? A: I want to be loved.

Pretty straightforwards. This shows Haruka’s core motivation is to be loved.

Q: When was your first love? A: I don’t know.

Q: What’s the difference between romantic love and just love? A: Don’t they both mean that you like someone?

Q: What’s your ideal date plan? A: I don’t understand.

Despite his core motivation being wanting to be loved, Haruka doesn’t understand much about love, due to having been deprived of it his whole life.

Q: What kind of person is your father? A: I disappointed him.

This is the only time we hear of Haruka’s father. I’d guess that his mother blamed Haruka for his father leaving them, and that’s why he believes that he disappointed his father.

Q: Have you ever had a pet before? A: I have not.

Q: What is your favourite animal? A: I don’t like animals.

Q: What are some things you can’t deal with? A: Small children and animals.

Haruka denies any incident that was traumatic to him.

Q: What do you think of your family? A: I love them.

Despite having been deprived of love from his mother, he still says he loves them.

Q: Tell us what you enjoy doing. A: I like talking with the other prisoners.

Haruka talks about what he’s been doing since coming to Milgram, which implies that he didn’t have much he enjoyed doing beforehand.

Two Breaths Walking

A song about a boy meeting a girl. The girl tries to teach the boy about life, but due to the boy’s mother having taught him about life wrongly, he struggles to understand, and as a result ends up hurting the girl.

With Haruka as the boy, the girl in his MV as the girl, and his mother as the boy’s mother, this directly parallels Haruka’s MV. There isn’t much to talk about, because the parallels are pretty direct. It backs up the idea that Haruka’s mother was abusive, teaching him wrongly through her abuse and neglect.

Voice Drama

Es: Now, let’s begin the interrogation. Prisoner Number 1, Haruka. Haruka: O-Okay… I-I’m sorry… Es: Huh? Do you have something to apologise for? Haruka: U-uh, no… I’m sorry.

This shows us Haruka’s submissive personality. This kind of apologising for any perceived fault is very common in survivors of emotional abuse, because they learnt in the abusive environment that their abuser could find fault in anything, and to lower the severity of abuse, they would apologise. However, as this level of apologising isn’t needed or expected in regular situations, when it carries over it stands out.

Haruka: Ah, uh, um… I didn’t understand whatever it was you were saying. It was difficult. Es: Huh? Haruka: Uh, um… I’m sorry. I’m not that bright. Es: Haruka. What age are you? Haruka: Um… 17 years old, I think. Es: You think? Haruka: Uh, well… I have no interest in my age… I’m sorry.

Haruka isn’t used to having to think for himself, which is also common in survivors of emotional abuse. Abusers try to make their victims dependent on them, they may try to make decisions for their victims, or in the case of abusive parents may speak for them and deprive their children of the ability to develop. Taking into account Haruka’s cover song, I think it’s likely that this was the case with his mother.

Es: The only name left that hasn’t been said is Amane. Haruka: A-Amane. Es: What’s wrong? Haruka: I-I’m not good with them. Children at that age. A-Amane is a good girl, but she brings back b-bad memories.

This is most likely referring to whatever happened with the girl in Haruka’s MV. Haruka avoids thinking about traumatic incidents, even in his nightmares he avoids the details of them. Avoiding triggers of traumatic events is a symptom of PTSD.

Haruka: It’ll happen sometime. I… I… Even though I try to be normal, everything gets ruined. You, everyone, if you knew me… If you knew everything that I did… I’m… gonna be abandoned, that’s bound to happen. Because I’m a selfish killer.

Due to his abuse, Haruka solely blames himself for everything that happens. It’s likely that his mother blames him even for things that weren’t his fault, so this thought process stuck. Haruka’s primary motivation is love, and his biggest fear is abandonment.

Glitched Voice Line

Then what should I have done instead!? Tell me! Tell me so even I can understand!

I believe that this line from Haruka is addressed to his mother who he killed. He felt that he had no way to gain her love, and he is looking to her to tell him what to do.

Other Theories

Twin Theory

A theory I’ve seen says that the child in Haruka’s MV isn’t Haruka as a child, and is actually his twin. I don’t think we have any evidence to support this. I think that, given how much of Haruka’s MV is made up with abstract imagery, we should be careful with interpreting it too literally.

Autistic Haruka Theory

I have no issue with people seeing Haruka as being autistic, however, all of the theories about him being autistic seem to come from an outdated view of autism. I am autistic myself, and while I can recognise a lot of autistic traits in Haruka’s behaviour, I don’t think autism is what they were going for. I think that Haruka’s ‘autistic traits’ are, instead, supposed to show that he’s in a child-like mentality after a trauma that took place in his childhood, and that his behaviour has been strongly influenced by his abusive mother. I believe we have evidence that points towards this specifically, but no evidence that points specifically towards Haruka being autistic.

Unexplained

Why does Haruka say that his hands bleed when he’s nervous and what connection does that have to the blood on his hands in the MV?

What is the significance of the necklace that Haruka wears?

What is the significance of the girl in the MV?

What happened while watching the fireworks?

Did Haruka kill the girl?

What’s the significance of the tree and the snakes?

Final Verdict

My Verdict: Innocent.

I’m very glad that the popular vote determined that Haruka was innocent! My major reasons for this are: 

1. His MV is the most abstract right now - it’s unclear exactly what happened, so any judgement based on his crime is going to be difficult. 2. For Haruka to open up more, I think he needs to be reassured that he will not be abandoned. I think that Haruka’s second MV will give us more details, because we have reassured him that he will not be abandoned.

Thank you for reading this ridiculously long thing! I hope to write these for all of the prisoners, and eventually catch up to where we currently are with the voting! If you enjoyed my analysis, please consider sharing so it can reach a wider audience!

[blacksunscorpio]

Hello! I saw your post about elevated planets, is there also any explanation about the planets opposite/bottom of the Zenith/Mc? Thank you!

Good Question

Nadir In Astrology

The Nadir, or Imum Coeli (IC), Latin for “south/bottom of the sky,” or “lowest point” is one of the four major angles in an astrological birth chart [the other 3 are the [Rising, Descendant, and Midheaven] and definitely the least talked about. The Midheaven and Nadir points lie at opposite ends of your Natal Chart. The Midheaven is at the very top [where your most elevated will be nearest]. It is where the Sun was at its highest peak during midday. Using this, we calculate the Nadir, or where the Sun was at its very lowest point during midnight. Like the Ascendant and Descendent Axis, the Midheaven and Nadir are opposites, with one side exposed and other other deeply hidden. It lies opposite the Midheaven—a point on our chart that represents our public life and persona, which gets a lot of attention.

What it Means

Since the Midheaven is our brightest, most open, well-light part of your personality, adversely the Nadir is the dead of night in your chart [quite literally], the IC is the deepest, darkest, quietest, most personal place in your chart. It  houses the Private Persona. This is how your mind operates in secret, how you feel, and how you act, when you are completely alone, with no one else watching. Our Nadir (IC) signifies our most profound depths and needs, a part of us that we often don’t share with others. While the rising and descendant axis of our charts navigate the relationship between self and others. The Midheaven and Nadir showcase the polarity of our outer and inner worlds. The IC sits on the cusp of the fourth house, ruled by the moon/cancer associated with family lineage, home environment, and family influences. Similarly to the moon, our nadir shows us our needs and emotional tendencies, though it's much more than that. When you looking at your birth chart, the nadir is below the horizon line of the ascendant and is the lowest place in our chart, therefore representing our foundation and roots. In this way, the IC also reveals the type of environment best for our physical well-being. Make sense? Now, I want to mention that many often think of the MC as a fake, constructed persona, and the Nadir is as our real, authentic selves. This couldn't be further from the truth. Fake news. This way of thinking hinges on the idea that we are fundamentally one type of person, forced act unlike ourselves in different situations. But the truth is, all of your choices and actions come together to create a portrait of who you really are, regardless of what made you act that way. The way you act when you are in front of people, trying to make your best impression - that is the real you. And the way you act when you are alone, with nobody to judge you - that is the real you, too ;). Humans are dichotomous and complex and astrology allows for that because it, as a study, is complex as well.

Nadir By Sign

Aries: [Libra MC] Need for independence and freedom. Reputation is built on the finer aspects of your personality. People know you by your good looks, first and foremost. They see you as elegant, yet strong; rational and logical. Inwardly, can be prone to dramatic displays of anger, loud demands, bossy, and sharp, biting humor and immense stores of sexual drive or drive in general. Family was very active or extremely ambitious. Learned early on how to be independent. Growing up, might have witnessed a lot of conflict in your family, some of it serious and some of it not. You saw problems with alcoholism, drug addiction, and anger. Unconsciously aggressive or combative.

Taurus: [Scorpio MC] Need for security or physical pleasures. Come off as intense, passionate, mysterious or dark. Family was stable or materialistic. As a child you were always well fed and secure. Parents/guardians gave you a taste for the finer things in life by caring so much about the look and quality of the things in their home. On a darker note they could also be quite controlling in a lot of ways, both over their house and family. Nothing could be done, or touched, or moved, or planned without them having a hand in what was going on. Native can be unconsciously inflexible or possessive.

Gemini: [Sagittarius MC] Need for understanding themselves and world around them. Outwardly can be very philosophical, blunt, straightforward and/or outspoken. When you find yourself alone with your thoughts, you spend a lot of time enjoying your own inner dialogue. And when you are with those few people you are close to, you enjoy a lot of stimulating conversations.  Family is a literal mosaic. Different colors and personalities. Home life was changing constantly. Family was growing and shrinking, moving around, breaking apart and then putting/fitting new pieces together. Childhood was self-expressive or hyper-intellectually focused. Unconsciously erratic, anxious or cunning that can display itself as duplicitousness.

Cancer: [Capricorn MC] Need to seek and give nurturance. Can come off as  determined, hard working, goal-oriented, and very good at what you do. You have a very professional public image that exudes confidence and experience. Family was co-dependent or critical. Growing up your mother was the central figure of your family home, either because she was a single mother or your father was away from home a lot. As a child, you were given more than enough praise and attention. When alone, you take on an almost maternal role in your house, cooking and cleaning and taking care of chores. Often, you will retreat into your bedroom, den or personal workshop and spend a lot of time working on things by solo.  Unconsciously co-dependent or guarded.

Leo: [Aquarius MC] Need for creative self-expression. intelligent, detached connections with other people. Can come off as detached or have this kind “dry intensity” that radiates off of you – you seem to be quietly aloof, cold. When alone, can be quite friendly or show big displays of love to those close to them. An eternal child that will always love fairly tales no matter how old they are. Family was self-involved or warm-hearted. The kid who was told they were special all the time. Everybody in your family (especially your mother) fawned over all the things you did, praising you for every accomplishment and exaggerating all your best qualities. You got everything you wanted. Unconsciously may have a lot of self-doubt.

Virgo: [Pisces MC] Need for efficiency. Comes off as a creative, kind, spiritual, almost ethereal person. People will notice the far-away look, the quiet contentment that hangs around you like a miasma. Draws in both saints and sinners. Though they may present a misty outward appearance, inwardly they keep detailed inventory of everything. Likes work and routine. Family or parent was hyper-critical. Some kind of negativity surrounding you when you were growing up, like fighting, substance abuse, depression, anxiety, or a poor home life. Whether or not you were aware of what your family members were going though, you looked for an escape. May have control freak tendencies.

Libra: [Aries MC] Need for harmony, though possibly difficulty in knowing needs with too much vacillation. Outwardly brave, perhaps a tad bossy, driven, commanding and leader-like with touches of aggression or authoritarianism. inwardly, peace loving, diplomatic, utterly polite, cooperative and friendly to the point of people pleasing. Family could have been quite social or superficial. When you are out interacting with the world you are confrontational and/or competitive. Growing up, you had to share your parent’s attention with other people. You might have had other siblings that got more than you, or they might have had other obligations that took up their time. Unconsciously coy.

Scorpio: [Taurus MC] Need for emotional depth and understanding. Outwardly laid back and grounded. Astonishing work-ethic. Security minded and practical. Inwardly there is a deep well of emotion. Can dwell or obsess. Powerful drive and silently aggressive. Family was secretive or powerful. Unconscious forces outside may have influenced them. Involved in power dynamics. Subconsciously,  memories of the past are littered with alcoholism, abuse, death, trauma, sex, various kinds of manipulation and betrayal.

Sagittarius: [Gemini MC] Need to discover their own truth. Comes off as intelligent, sociable, highly optimistic. Social butterfly. Inwardly may act out personal and grandiose dramas. Family was hyper-ethical or adventurous. Sought to learn and understand other people’s cultures and perspectives. In your childhood, when you were living at home with your family, you were thought of as a very bright child. Energetic, enthusiastic about learning, and always exploring the outside world, you met every new subject with curiosity and an open mind. Teachers and classmates labelled you as the “smart kid”. Unconsciously can seek status, attention or might be prone to judgment.

Capricorn: [Cancer MC] Need for reliability and order. reputation for being determined, hard working, goal-oriented. Family was traditional or repressed emotions. Might feel like you have to “fight for respect.” Family was very restrictive and controlling. Tried to make you into what they wanted you to be rather than accepting you for how you were. When alone in the privacy of your own home, you are emotional, sensitive, and very attached to your belongings and loved ones. Unconsciously self-repressing or pessimistic.

Aquarius: [Leo MC] Need for unconventional and individual stance. Comes off as bubbly, friendly, happy, and attracts attention easily. Inwardly, a loner, detached, intelligent, the furthest thing from a people pleaser. Likes to be left alone to their own devices to study or research. Family was non-traditional or unavailable. Home life might have been chaotic or tumultuous. As a kid you had little control over your life’s direction and had to follow your parents wherever they went. This could mean you were uprooted a lot, maybe a military kid or simply forced into their religion or belief system. Unconsciously somewhat detached from others. Accept anybody for anything, you support them 100%. Not interested in people or affairs/things that do not concern you. Father might have been absent. Unconsciously weird/ unusual.

Pisces: [Virgo MC] Need for wandering or mysticism. Comes off as organized, dissecting, routine-loving and very well-put together. Inwardly, can be emotional, messy, lazy, gullible, but also sensitive, compassionate, empathetic, and completely selfless. Family roots of unclear boundaries. Growing up there was a lot going on between your parents that you didn’t understand. Perhaps born on the verge of some kind of upheaval. Something happened that caused the family break apart before you were born and now they were dealing with the aftermath. Unconsciously over-sensitive or non-committal.

Bruja note:

The key to understanding the patterns and energy of the IC brings balance and equilibrium to our lives as it teaches us how to embrace our past and move forward into our future. How to really grasp and harness the midheaven gifts and promises. There is an inevitable sense of karma and destiny associated with the angles of our charts, and the IC is no exception. Knowing the patterns of the nadir brings consciousness to our underworld. More understanding. It is considered by many astrologers one of, if not THE most important part of our entire chart—because of the depth of understanding it gives us when we really commit to comprehending it. By utilizing the skills and difficulties of our family/ancestors/origins, we are thrusted into our personal journey’s and ultimately our north node or most elevated destinies.  

What sign is your Nadir in? Dissecting and understanding it can bring healing and growth to you and those you’re closely connected with.

[crazynekochan]

Dangan Persona AU

Palace #7

Ruled by Makoto Naegi.

Captive is Mukuro Ikusaba (held captive in cell; will be executed for her crimes in the alternate reality if not rescued in time; picked very much the worst day to dress as Junko).

Shadow manifests as Makoto but wearing a creepy long black cloak, like he is the judge, jury and executioner (which he is), who turns into a 4-armed angel, one wielding a shield, the other a huge revolver (like truth bullets), and the 2nd pair holding up the weight of the world’s hope on his shoulders as a shining globe that seems to get heavier as the battle progresses. It’s also immune to Curse skills, which is rather unfortunate because that’s what everyone was betting on it having since Lincoln (and therefore Makoto)’s weak to Curse skills.

Palace is Hope’s Peak as ala the first game but much more pastel, with the walls instead draped in soft silk, light shining down in jarring contrast to the giant metal plates over the windows. It gives everyone the creeps, especially when the 2nd half starts with much more blood and gore appearing on the pristine sheets and floors.

As a little peep to the next palace, this is also where they get a glimpse of a Shadow Nagito. The original had gotten curious and just barely went a bit into the Metaverse. He managed to get out right away, but not before causing his shadow to be spotted tending to a strange memorial garden of class 78 before vanishing.

Finally after frankly too many puzzles, they arrive at the midway point of Mukuro’s show trial at a near exact replica of the red door to the trial grounds. They open up and find the elevator, but what is much more relevant is the metric fuckton of Junko photos and Monokuma memorabilia all over the room, almost all of them horrifically destroyed in rage, aimed at the faces in particular. Since Mukuro was dressed as Junko the day she got abducted (Junko had a scheduling issue and made Mukuro dress as her for class, even though no one else really bought it), this makes everyone rightfully very nervous and reluctantly head down, despite the sick feelings roiling in everyone’s stomachs, because they’re not gonna like this. And nope, they didn’t like it at all.

They came out to see the trial already underway, 2 large stands loaded with masked figures to the sides of the room and a high circle of 15 podiums surrounding Mukuro, chained into a kneeling position as the Judges gazed down upon her. The party looks up to see them, and finds something rather strange. On one side are 9 funerary portraits on raised poles, with the 6 judges in black robes in front of them, all focused on Mukuro. The Judges are cognitive versions of the DR1 survivors, all looking much worse for wear (cognitive Hiro looks exhausted, cognitive Hina is silently sobbing with a funerary portrait of Sakura in her hands, even cognitive Kyoko looks like she was in mourning), with Shadow Makoto in the center as the chief Justice. It’s right at the ending of the trial, and Mukuro is declared guilty for conspiracy to end the world, to the disgust and horror of the crowd.

Mukuro tries to argue, saying that this must be a mistake, they have the wrong person. Shadow Makoto tells her that no, they know full well who she is, Mukuro Ikusaba (full name, no honorifics). He continues, telling her, in no uncertain terms, all of the crimes he knows of from the alternate timeline committed by the Ultimate Despair. “And to prevent that from occurring, we must tear the despair out, root and stem. Junko would be nothing without her little cronies, after all. What better way to end this right now than by her dearest sister’s death, leaving her powerless?” Then the Shadow has her trapped inside of a cage and sent down to the dungeons to await her execution, before the party can help her.

The rest of the palace works in a similar way to the first half, but everything goes into straight up horror movie territory. Like they were creeped out before, but now it was fucking all sorts of terrifying. It’s pretty much an amalgamation of all of Makoto from the other timeline’s trauma and survivors guilt from the first game. This part of the palace also has a bunches of minibosses that they have to fight through in the second half because holy crap, those things are fucking horrific. The minibosses are all the souls lost to the killing school life and it is very much not pretty. Sayaka covered in blood impaled with knives; Leon tied to a pole, pummeled to a pulp, chucking bloody baseballs; Chihiro with his head bashed in, using a mess of cables and screens to interact with the world; Mondo as a hellish biker that seems to be melting; Taka the terrifying sergeant with his head bleeding; Hifumi with his head bashed in as well, using his horrific Junji Ito-style magical girl drawings for attacks; a thing so burnt and smashed up that they could only identify her as Celeste because of the twin drills; Sakura as a silent warrior, constantly coughing up poison and blood. Even a makeshift “Mukuro”, hardly able to move from all the spears through her body. Holy crap, did that freak everyone out and make them very glad when they next saw their friends again at dinner because they’re alive!

The time limit this time is because Shadow Makoto, while being a twisted mess of repressed anger, sadness, and misery, is also fundamentally a good person and doesn’t want to kill Mukuro before she had even done anything, even though he knows that she’s guilty as sin of conspiring to destroy the world and everything in it (in the canon timeline). That’s actually where the party comes in, because by the time they clear the palace, the Shadow had finally decided that it was now or never and he needed to do this now. When they rush in to stop him, that’s when the boss fight starts.

The fight is genuinely hard as hell and the Shadow isn’t holding back. The attacks are all similar to the various minigames from DR1, just with a Persona flair. Makoto’s providing as much support as he can without being able to control his own persona, with the Shadow lashing out every time that Makoto offers his emotional support. Eventually, they notice that the giant ball of hope is getting heavier to the point of nearly crushing Makoto, who’s holding up the globe like Atlas holding the sky. His Shadow’s about ready to cry, begging the others to stop as Makoto encourages them all to keeping fighting and to not give up now. The battle only stops when they finally get Makoto to confess that he’s not always the bright ball of sunshine that they think he is and that even he needs help sometimes. With that resolved, the shadow returns to being Makoto’s persona, now instead of Lincoln, he is Logos (basically the closest to Jesus as I can get without making an even bigger mess in the MegaTen universe)

[Holy shit, I feel like I wrote a whole novel here! I’m ending this here, good night!}

---

Mod: The design for Makot's shadow is so flipping awesome. It’s so fitting for Makoto considering that he’s the main speaker during the class trials (cause MC and all) and this is literally a trial his shadow is holding, with the shields and revolver in each hand. Though my favourite is him holding up the worlds hope like Atlas with the sky, cause it’s still my favourite part of his character development that he admits in the DR3 anime that he’s sometimes really overwhelmed with always having to be positive as the Ultimate Hope but still keeps it up for ever (and as entertaining the anime was, it was one of the only good things it did story wise, but that’s a different topic altogether...)

The palace must be so disturbing for the party, cause up until now every palace was basically a fantasy place representing something of the person’s life/personality. But now they are in a twisted and later on gory version of their own school, and still don’t know anything of the past timeline. But things are starting to get unravelled now. Though most disturbing must be the memorial garden for their very much alive friends. The fact that the survivors, who were not among the memorial photos, are the judges who look like they experiences something very awful and traumatic. Not to mention the tons of destroyed Junko photos

That the minibosses are the victims in an all horror like fashion, where I’m imagining something along the lines of DR3 anime with Makoto’s despair hallucination, must be so brutal cause these are literally the “corpses” of their friends that are attacking them, who are in this timeline alive and happy

I can only imagine how hard it must have been for everyone to see how Makoto’s shadow actually is, which is basically being overwhelmed with all the support he has to give all the time. Cause everyone does lean a lot on Makoto (not that leaning on people is bad, but there is a limit how much one person can handle, even for Makoto)

[skipppppy]

4, 6, and 8 for Aria plz

Sure! I love talking about my girl and these are some really interesting questions 👀

The answers ran long and are also kinda heavy (tw for mentions of both abuse and suicide!) so I’m keeping them under the cut so I don’t flood the tl with my ramblings 🥲

4: What is their least favourite childhood memory?

Ooh, she had a LOT of these. (There’s one in particular but I put it as the answer to question 8 bc it fit that question more tbh)

One of her worst memories was from the first time she went to Princess Prom. She was invited as a plus one to Entrapta, and being a young teenager with a head full of romantic fairytales and fantasies she was SO EXCITED. A royal ball filled with handsome Princes and Princesses? It was the perfect place for her to finally meet her one true love! Alas, her childlike naivety was only bound to get her hurt. After a few hours at the ball the slow dance began (her plus one was off performing social experiments), and like everyone else she rushed to the dance floor to find a partner...only to be completely sidelined. Anyone she approached would brush her off or turn to someone else. As the music started and everyone began to waltz back and forth, she just stood there, alone, surrounded by everyone paired up and ignoring her.

Disillusioned and heartbroken, she fled the ballroom in tears and spent the rest of the night hiding and crying her eyes out. After that her self esteem totally shattered. She believed that she was unlovable, worthless, and that she’d be lucky if anyone at all even cared about her romantically. After that she had a habit of falling into toxic relationships, since since she was so afraid of being alone that she would settle for anyone, even if they treated her like garbage. It’s why she has so many terrible exes 😔

6: What is the hardest thing they’ve ever had to do?

Swallowing her grief over losing Horde Prime by a LONGSHOT. His death utterly destroyed her, but the part that hurt the most was that she wasn’t allowed to mourn him.

The moment he was gone she had to turn her attention to all the Clones, lost and afraid without a leader. She had to bottle up all her anger over being sold out by the rebellion, imprisoned and enslaved by the Horde, and being betrayed by some of the most important people in her life. She had to plaster on a happy face and play dignitary to the people who had caused her lifelong trauma in order to help a kingdom she was unprepared to rule alone and it broke her. She had to nod and smile as they spoke ill of her dead husband to her face (I know he had it coming but right in front of his widow??? Fr???) and let them walk all over her in order to keep the peace. Keeping up the illusion genuinely destroyed her, physically and mentally. It got to the point that she made several attempts on her own life because the burden was just too much to bear.

Honestly her downward spiral into villainy was probably the healthiest thing she ever did, because she finally got the chance to unleash all her pent up rage and anger against the people who caused it, and even after whatever attempts at destruction she made failed miserably, she FULLY broke down and was able to properly mourn what she had lost. One the Velvet Glove was fixed and they left Etheria, she stepped down as Empress for a while so she could finally start to heal. It was in that time she also found Horde Prime’s original vessel, still intact, and was able to get some much needed closure and move onto probably the first healthy relationship she’d ever had in her life. (I also like to imagine that she somehow found a way to hold the alliance accountable for their actions, but that’s another story for another day :p)

8: What do you think had the biggest impact on them growing up?

By far? The way she was her mother treated her as a child. One event in particular had a HUGE influence on her as a person but I haven’t really talked about it until now.

Her mother always treated her terribly, being the eldest daughter Aria was either neglected in favour of her younger brothers or being forced to look after them so that she could relax (and laze about on the couch drinking wine). Being about 5 years old she wasn’t particularly happy about this and one day she had the absolute audacity to ask her mom to stop neglecting her. She did NOT take that question well and flew into a drunken rage. Screaming, shouting, throwing things, but it all came to a head when she picked up an empty wine bottle and smashed it against her infant daughter’s face. Thankfully the magic connected to Aria was starting to develop and she was able to heal herself, but she wasn’t strong enough to fix everything, and that’s how she ended up with the scar underneath her eye.

The incident naturally messed Aria up for life, but it also informed a lot of her personality as an adult. After that she became afraid to voice her opinion in fear of punishment, causing her to repress her feelings to an unhealthy degree. Her desire to nurture and care for others didn’t just stem from any natural kindheartedness but also as a stress response; she needed to take responsibility to ease the constant sense of dread her mother’s abuse instilled in her, and she wanted to make sure that no one ever had to suffer the way she did. It was also the reason she wears her hair the way she does. Whenever she had her scar on display people would get curious and ask, and she would have to relive it all over again. After meeting Prime she finally started keeping her hair out of her eyes, as she finally learnt to stop bottling up her trauma.

[thebluelemontree]

Is it wrong to say that Sansa uses an out of sight out of mind coping mechanism? I noticed it because it's what I do a lot. I know some ppl say she rewrites traumatic memories to make the memories bearable but it doesn't make sense. If that was how she coped, wouldn't she have been telling herself lies about Joffrey still in acok? Or found a way to erase/rewrite Marillion's attempt to rape her?

Yes and no. She does that except all the times she doesn’t. ;) I think that characterization is extremely reductionist (and ignores character complexity and  growth) when it’s applied that broadly to every situation Sansa has been in. You have to take these things instance by instance because they aren’t all the same. Sometimes that labeling doesn’t fit at all. In many cases, it feels more like the fandom pathologizing the act of romanticizing or trying to push aside or reframe something unpleasant or even traumatic when that’s just something most human beings do now and then. Some do it more than others, but its all within the realm of typical coping behavior and being older or more educated or more “logical” doesn’t make one immune to it. So I hope you don’t let those interpretations make you feel abnormal or more fallible for identifying with Sansa in that way. Romanticizing doesn’t even have to be about coping at all, but simply expressing desire through daydreams. People imagine being in idealized scenarios with crushes all the time.  

You also hit the nail on the head. Sansa just doesn’t go around making up false narratives about every objectively awful thing that happens to her. In fact, her actual responses to those moments can be a useful basis for comparison when we’re analyzing the unkiss, for example. Misunderstanding the unkiss is usually where a lot of these assumptions stem from. That’s a whole other can of worms in itself. The unkiss is just too long of a discussion to put here, so I just recommend this post as to the reasons why it isn’t about trauma and take a browse through my unkiss tag. It does bear repeating that Sansa factually remembers every scary thing that happened during the Blackwater and why it happened, indicating she has processed it honestly and critically, before any incarnation of the unkiss happens. The unkiss is a mismemory added on to the facts, which began as her being the actor that kissed him first. It’s not a lie to deny the facts or to excuse his behavior. It’s regrettable to her that Sandor was not able to be the person she could rely on to get her out of KL at that time. Nonetheless, this repressed desire is just so strong in her that it manifested in a kiss so real she could remember how it felt after the reality of his leaving KL for good sank in. 

Early AGOT Sansa tended to want to move past unpleasantness rather quickly. Just sweep those red flags under the rug so everything can go back to blissful harmony. Sansa is naturally averse to conflict and just wants her present with the royal family to be smooth sailing into a bright future. Ned had a very similar tendency when it came to concerns over Robert’s true character. He saw things that disturbed him, but he hoped and clung to his idea of Robert anyway. For Sansa, this resulted in some misplaced blame and rewriting events so she could deal with the aftermath. This is mostly seen in her processing the Mycah incident after Lady’s death and how her perception of all the characters involved shifted in varying ways. This is after she knew perfectly well what really happened, because Ned says Sansa had already told him the truth of what Joffrey did while Arya was still missing. However, it would also be unfair to completely chalk this up to Sansa’s idiosyncrasies. We have to put her flip-flopping in the context of the situation as well. She’s also experienced a gutting loss with Lady’s death and the fact that the first blow to her innocence was her father volunteering to put Lady down. She doesn’t have Catelyn to go to with her confusion and hurt, and Ned has largely been silent. She’s also still engaged to Joffrey through all this, this is still a patriarchy, there are political ramifications to speaking against a crown prince, and she doesn’t know how to deal with seeing such cruelty and vindictiveness in her future husband. Especially when he responded to her tender concern and wanting to help him with venom and hate. 

I mean, jeez, she’s 11. I don’t expect an 11 year old to understand how to identify the signs of emotional manipulation or see how this situation can escalate into domestic violence. Just because Sansa can’t articulate what is happening within her relationship with Joffrey, doesn’t mean she has blocked out any notion that Joffrey can turn his anger on her. Part of the reason she misplaces blame on Arya (and rewrites what happened) is because Joffrey turns scornful of Sansa for being a witness to his emasculating shame. He punishes her with the cold shoulder because she didn’t immediately take his side and pretended not to see instead. He regains power through making Sansa feel small and fearful of his moods. 

“He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him.” -- Sansa II, AGOT.

Sansa looked at him and trembled, afraid that he might ignore her or, worse, turn hateful again and send her weeping from the table. -- Sansa II, AGOT.

This is coming from someone who is supposed to love her and someone she will spend the rest of her life with. To fix things, she must be unequivocally on Joffrey’s side going forward or suffer the consequences, which we can see happening as her story completely flips over breakfast sometime later. This is not saying Sansa is fully exonerated from not supporting her sister when she needed her, but that it’s understandable how she arrived at this point. Even when things start to get really bad after Ned’s arrest, Sansa still holds out some hope that she can appeal to Joffrey’s (and Cersei’s) love for her to get him to be merciful. Is it really her fault she believed a part of Joffrey really loved her (and thus was reachable by her pleas) if he also heavily love bombed her and treated her like she was the most special girl in the world? Love bombing is a classic feature of the seduction phase leading up to abuse.  

So we can see Sansa does ignore truths and rewrite events sometimes and her personality is a factor; however, the context surrounding it matters a lot. Post Ned’s execution, Sansa does a full 180 regarding Joffrey and Cersei.

Sansa stared at him, seeing him for the first time. He was wearing a padded crimson doublet patterned with lions and a cloth-of-gold cape with a high collar that framed his face. She wondered how she could ever have thought him handsome. His lips were as soft and red as the worms you found after a rain, and his eyes were vain and cruel. "I hate you," she whispered. -- Sansa VI, AGOT.

Once she had loved Prince Joffrey with all her heart, and admired and trusted his mother, the queen. They had repaid that love and trust with her father's head. Sansa would never make that mistake again. -- Sansa I, ACOK. 

"A monster," she whispered, so tremulously she could scarcely hear her own voice. "Joffrey is a monster. He lied about the butcher's boy and made Father kill my wolf. When I displease him, he has the Kingsguard beat me. He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well." -- Sansa I, ASOS. 

There’s also her conscious efforts to push away thoughts of her dead family and Jeyne Poole, but she states why she does that. It’s traumatic, the tears start flowing uncontrollably, and she is desperately trying to avoid falling into another suicidal depression. Her survival in KL depends on her holding it together and appearing loyal and obedient to Joffrey. Mourning her loved ones would imply to Joffrey she is plotting treason. Besides, she knows that even if she did ask Cersei or LF about Jeyne, she has no reason to believe they’d do anything but lie to her face in a patronizing way. There’s no point being plagued with wondering what the truth might be when she can’t do anything about it. Still, she prayed for Jeyne wherever she might be. She genuinely thought Arya had made it to WF on the ship and was safe at least until she got word of her brothers’ deaths and her home being sacked by the Iron Born, though there was initially a touch of projection and fantasizing about Arya being free while she remains captured. As of Feast, she believes she is the last Stark left alive and she has no one but Littlefinger to help her. So while she is suppressing her grief, it’s done with good reason, and it’s not being replaced with any false narratives to cope. 

We also cannot ignore that her relationship to Sandor Clegane has instilled in her an appreciation for the un-sugarcoated truth now that she has experienced betrayal and injustice first hand. In his own way, he’s encouraged her to listen to her own inner bullshit detector. The rose-tinted glasses have become a lot more clear compared to where she started. This is a newly learned skill though, and her self-confidence has been wrecked by internalized verbal abuse. She’s also been left on her own to figure out people’s intentions by herself, which runs parallel to her mounting desperation to get out of KL as Joffrey’s violence escalates. Developing a touch more of a jaded, skeptical side does sometimes clash with her enduring idealism and faith in other people (like with the Tyrells). This struggle is not a bad thing. The goal isn’t to become as cynical as the Hound, but to arrive at an earned optimism that has been tempered by wisdom and practical experience.

Her situation with Littlefinger is much more challenging than anything she faced in KL. He moves her where he wants her to go with complex web of lies, manipulation, grooming, isolation, coercion, dependence, guilt and shame. Her safety and desire to go home are tightly bound to being complicit in his lies and criminal activities. She feels indebted to him for getting her out of KL, even though his methods push her past her boundaries and force her to compromise her moral integrity. The thing is, there are things Sansa does know about LF, but she doesn’t seem to be ready to try and put the puzzle pieces together. She’s not daring to ask probing questions about Lysa’s reference to the “tears” and Jon Arryn or about the possible dangers of Maester Colemon prescribing sweetsleep for Robert’s convulsions. While the subject of Jeyne’s fate is still one she doesn’t want to revisit, somewhere in her mind she does know LF took custody of her friend. If it feels like this is somewhat of a regression back to her early AGOT self, there’s probably some truth to that; however, it’s perfectly okay for positive character arcs to be an imperfect progress. There can be relapses, regressions, setbacks, missteps, and misguided actions. All that growth isn’t lost. Everything she knows is just stored in the back of her mind, not forgotten completely. The general trend line moves her toward successfully confronting Littlefinger with the truth when GRRM is ready to pull the trigger. She’s definitely aware of Littlefinger lying to her more than she lets on and she knows his help is not out of the kindness of his heart, but motivated by what he wants her to be to him. But it’s not like she has the option to go anywhere else, does she? She’s a wanted criminal with a bounty on her head and has no other friend or ally in the Vale she can trust with the truth of her identity. Confronting LF without any means of neutralizing his power over her isn’t the smartest thing to do when he’s shown her he can literally get away with multiple murders. Again, it’s not just her personality that makes her hesitant to pull back the veil and face the horrible truth head on. The outside forces pressuring her perceptions and behavior cannot be discounted either.    

[butterflies-dragons]

Hey love your metas! I want to ask about Sansa dealing with her sexual assaults and trauma. The way she mismemorised the traumatic events, do you think she gonna misremember any other similar traumatic events in future? Do you think her family will help her remember these events n dealing with it?

Hello Anon,

Thank you ♡

I recently wrote about Sansa dealing with trauma, particularly sexual assault trauma. 

Here is the post for anyone interested. 

And here is another one.  

Almost every meta, essay, analysis, etc, about the so-called “un-kiss”, has been written from a sexual perspective.  For the majority of this fandom, either shippers or not, Sansa remembering a kiss instead of the sexual assault she suffered and later having nightmares with her assaulter being in bed with her, CLEARLY means that she is having sexual fantasies with her assaulter, that she is expressing her dark, repressed, hidden, deepest desires about her assaulter, that all this is part of her sexual awakening.  

But every time GRRM has been asked about the subject, either from a sexual perspective or not, he consistently tagged Sansa misremembering things and events as “unreliable narrator.” Lets see.

In chronological order:

JUNE 26, 2001

SF, TARGARYENS, VALYRIA, SANSA, MARTELLS, AND MORE

[GRRM is asked about Sansa misremembering the name of Joffrey’s sword.]

The Lion’s Paw / Lion’s Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom… but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

[Source]

It is very curious that the person who misremembered Joffrey’s sword name wasn’t Sansa, it was Arya:

The big man shrugged. "I was Joffrey's sworn shield. The butcher's boy attacked a prince of the blood."

"That's a lie!" Arya squirmed in Harwin's grip. "It was me. I hit Joffrey and threw Lion's Paw in the river. Mycah just ran away, like I told him."

—A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

But despite the unreliable narrator’s identity confusion, what I understand from George’s answer is that misremembering a minor detail like Joff’s sword name “it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory,” like the “un-kiss” for example, that George mentioned next. 

At the same time, the “un-kiss” will eventually mean something, but just now it’s a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.

Take note that George’s answer is from 2001, after ASOS was published, so by that time he already knew about the existence of the shippers that want Sansa with the Hound being together in a romantic/sexual relationship. You can check this fact by reading the questions and answers from 1999 compiled in this post.  But he still mentioned that the meaning of the “un-kiss” was “a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on.” 

So much for the so-called “evident”, “canon”, “endgame“ ship and ASOS being “their ship’s book”  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  

* * *

OCTOBER 05, 2002

SANSA’S MEMORY

[Note: This mail has been edited for brevity.]

… this is an inconsistency with ASoS more than an outright error. In ASoS, Sansa thinks that the Hound kissed her before leaving her room and King’s Landing. In ACoK, no kiss is mentioned in the scene, though Sansa did think that he was about to do so.

Well, not every inconsistency is a mistake, actually. Some are quite intentional. File this one under “unreliable narrator” and feel free to ponder its meaning...

[Source]

Here George’s answer is more succinct: the “un-kiss” is not a mistake, it was intentional, file this one under “unreliable narrator.”

* * *

NOVEMBER 27, 2007

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS

Here’s a really particular question (which I realize means it probably won’t get asked in a general interview): In A Storm of Swords, there is a chapter early on where Sansa is thinking back to the scene at the end of A Clash of Kings when The Hound came into her room during the battle. She thinks in the chapter about how he kissed her, but in the scene in A Clash of Kings, this actually didn’t happen. Was that a typo or something? —Valdora

GRRM: It’s not a typo. It is something! [Laughs] ”Unreliable narrator” is the key phrase there. The second scene is from Sansa’s thoughts. And what does that reveal about her psychologically? I try to be subtle about these things.

[Source]

Here George gave us little clues:

[The un-kiss] is from Sansa’s thoughts [an internal thought for herself, she is not telling anyone that the Hound kissed her]

What does that reveal about her psychologically? 

I try to be subtle about these things

Also take note how GRRM repeatedly highlights the word “subtle” regarding the “un-kiss”:

but just now it’s a subtle touch (After ASOS but before AFFC)

I try to be subtle about these things (Shortly after AFFC)

This is a stark contrast with the majority of this fandom, either shippers or not, that interpret and believe that Sansa remembering a kiss instead of the sexual assault she suffered and later having nightmares with her assaulter being in bed with her, CLEARLY has to do with her sexual awakening, that the “un-kiss” means that she is having sexual fantasies with her assaulter, that she is expressing her dark, repressed, hidden, deepest desires about her assaulter.  

And I wonder, since Sansa has similar dreams with Ilyn Payne and often feels naked around him:

As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

She dreamt of footsteps on the tower stair, an ominous scraping of leather on stone as a man climbed slowly toward her bedchamber, step by step. All she could do was huddle behind her door and listen, trembling, as he came closer and closer. It was Ser Ilyn Payne, she knew, coming for her with Ice in his hand, coming to take her head. There was no place to run, no place to hide, no way to bar the door. Finally the footsteps stopped and she knew he was just outside, standing there silent with his dead eyes and his long pocked face. That was when she realized she was naked. She crouched down, trying to cover herself with her hands, as her door began to swing open, creaking, the point of the greatsword poking through …

She woke murmuring, “Please, please, I’ll be good, I’ll be good, please don’t,” but there was no one to hear.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa VI

Once she dreamed it was still her marrying Joff, not Margaery, and on their wedding night he turned into the headsman Ilyn Payne. 

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa II

Does this mean that Sansa is having sexual fantasies with her father’s executioner as well? Does this mean that Sansa has dark, repressed, hidden, deepest desires about Ilyn Payne too?

I think that the “un-kiss” has to do with Sansa’s internal thoughts, how her mind works, how her mind deals with unpleasant/disturbing events. So in order to decipher its meaning we must ask ourselves about Sansa’s psychology, she is a deeply traumatized child by many events: Her direwolf’s death, her father’s death, the disillusionment of her Prince and the Queen as high moral figures, the disillusionment of the knights as fair heroes, the psychological, physical and sexual abuse she has suffered so far.  The “un-kiss” is a subtlety from the author, this can’t be as easy as “Sansa has the hots for the Hound”. 

Sansa: All she wanted was for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs. —A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

Sansa: Almost raped by the Hound during the night of the Blackwater Battle, he invaded her bedroom, pushed her to bed, put a dagger at her throat, requested a song from her under threat of death.  

There is a song called “Off to Gulltown” that says:

Off to Gulltown to see the fair maid, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll steal a sweet kiss with the point of my blade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho. I’ll make her my love and we’ll rest in the shade, heigh-ho, heigh-ho.

Sansa: The Hound kissed me during the night of the Blackwater Battle.

Fandom/Shippers: Sansa fancies the Hound uhhhhhhhhh

Sansa: Has unpleasant memories of the “un-kiss” feeling soiled by it. 

Sansa: Has a nightmare about Tyrion and the Hound in bed with her the night after Marillion attempted to rape her.

Fandom/Shippers: Sansa fancies the Hound and have fun dreams with him uhhhhhhhhhh

It's really all that easy?

George hates to be predictable:

I spoke earlier about how predictable stories bore me. And we’ve all, you know, seen the stories where the hero, you know, he seems to get in trouble—he’s all alone, he’s surrounded by twenty foes, but he’s the hero! You know he’s going to get out of it; you’re not really engaged. I want you to be engaged. I want you to feel what the viewpoint character is feeling. If the viewpoint character is in trouble, I want you to be afraid, I want you not to know whether he’s going to get out of it. And I think the only way to do that is establish very early in the books that you’re playing for real, that anyone can die, and if the character’s in a life or death situation that he might not survive it. That these are not superheroes, these are not Indiana Jones. These are fallible human beings who are vulnerable to death and betrayal and all that. To my mind, that makes the stories much more suspenseful and gripping and emotionally involving.

(...)

I also liked the idea of the story not being predictable. Too much of fantasy is too predictable, you know? They say we write the stories that we want to read. And I was a reader long before I was a writer, and as a reader I love stories that take me to places that I don’t expect, and I hate stories where you read the first five pages and you know exactly what’s going to happen for the rest of the book. Those stories bore me very quickly, and I don’t want to bore my readers or indeed bore myself in writing, so I try to, you know, create a fairly complicated thing that’s full of twists and surprises and unexpected turns, but all of them rooted hopefully in human nature and arising out of the characters and the desires and wishes and dreams of those characters.

—A Dance With Dragons: George R. R. Martin

And he is always distracting us:

There are some mysteries in these books. There are some things that I’m gonna reveal later on that I’m planting clues for. There are some later plot twists that I’m foreshadowing. There are things that are gonna happen in Book 5 and Book 6 and Book 7 where I’ve planted a seed for it in Book 1. But I don’t necessarily want to give away my hand. So, what do I do when I plant the seed? Well, I plant the seed, but I try to do a little literary sleight of hand, and while I’m planting the seed, my other hand is up there waving and is distracting you with some flashy bit of wordplay or something that’s going on in the foreground, while the seed is being planted in the background. So hopefully the seed is there, the foreshadowing is there, but maybe you won’t notice it, because it’s surrounded by so many other things.

—The George R. R. Martin Podcast, Episode 7 (9:17)  

Transcription provided by this post.

Think about it!    

* * *

DECEMBER 2016 ASKING GEORGE R.R. MARTIN ABOUT SAN/SAN

My question is regarding Sansa Stark. Her sexuality has evolved through every book and yet the memory that seems to stick the more with her in this regard is the night of the Blackwater. So I was wondering if you can expand on your view on what this is, since as before that night her interactions with Sandor Clegane weren’t really physical.

The night of the Blackwater, yes. Ahhh… Well, I’m not going to give you a straight answer on that hahaha… Uhmmm, but I would say that ahhh… you know a television show and a book each has its own strengths and weaknesses; there a re tools that are available to me as a novelist, that are not available to people doing a television show. And of course there are tools available to them, that are not available to a novelist, I mean they can lay in a soundtrack, they can do special effects, they can do amazing things that I can’t do, I just have words on paper. What can I do, well I can use things like the internal narrative, I can take you inside of territories… thoughts, which you can’t do in a TV show… Ahhh… You just have the words they speak, you see them from outside because the camera is external, while prose is internal, and I have the device known as “unreliable narrator”… Ahhh… Which again, they don’t have. So, think about those two aspects when you consider that night of the Blackwater.

[Source]

Here George was asked directly, by a shipper, about the “un-kiss” and Sansa’s sexuality, and he stuck with his classic “unreliable narrator” answer.

George also repeated these things:

I can use things like the internal narrative

I can take you inside of territories… thoughts

Prose is internal

I have the device known as “unreliable narrator

His comparison between a TV Show and a Book is very telling: 

You just have the words they speak, you see them from outside because the camera is external, while prose is internal.

Also, it seems that he is done with questions about Sansa’s sexuality, as you can see from the chronology of questions and answers in this post. 

So, the “un-kiss” and any other misremembering from Sansa has to do with her psychological state, not with her sexuality in particular.

Sansa did something similar with the Trident incident, where her direwolf Lady, part of her soul, was killed by her own father using his sword Ice. 

She remembered the facts exactly as they happened when she told her father about it. But later she started to blame Arya and Cersei, but exculpates Joffrey, her future husband:  

Sansa and Septa Mordane were given places of high honor, to the left of the raised dais where the king himself sat beside his queen. When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa II

She accommodates and compartmentalize a lot as a way to cope and survive every unpleasant, disturbing and traumatic event that already happened to her in her short 13 years.  

So to answer your specific questions:

Do you think she gonna misremember any other similar traumatic events in future?

I think so. This is sad because it means that Sansa will experience even more  traumatic events that she will have to deal with... 

We need to wait to know the “un-kiss” true meaning. She romanticizes the Hound’s rape attempt against her and made it into a kiss, just like a song called “Off to Gulltown” that describes a non-con/sexual abuse situation against a maid, like her.

Inside her mind Sansa decided to remember the good things that men like Tyrion and the Hound did for her.  In her first AFFC chapter (Sansa I), she thinks:    

When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her. 

When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety. 

When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort.

Only in her nightmares the true slipped out:

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said. 

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

But after Marillion’s attack, Littlefinger forced kiss and Lysas’s death she is starting to join the dots.  For an instance, when she hears Littlerfinger using the same sexual innuendo than Marillion, “Let me warm you”, she realizes that Petyr Baelish is bad news:

Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands."

"I won't." He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he'd gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr's man. "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . ."

—A Storm of Swords - Sansa VII

The whole passage from her first AFFC chapter (Sansa I) is very revealing: 

The things her aunt had said just before she fell still troubled Sansa greatly. "Ravings," Petyr called them. "My wife was mad, you saw that for yourself." And so she had. All I did was build a snow castle, and she meant to push me out the Moon Door. Petyr saved me. He loved my mother well, and . . .

And her? How could she doubt it? He had saved her.

He saved Alayne, his daughter, a voice within her whispered. But she was Sansa too . . . and sometimes it seemed to her that the Lord Protector was two people as well. He was Petyr, her protector, warm and funny and gentle . . . but he was also Littlefinger, the lord she'd known at King's Landing, smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered in Queen Cersei's ear. And Littlefinger was no friend of hers. When Joff had her beaten, the Imp defended her, not Littlefinger. When the mob sought to rape her, the Hound carried her to safety, not Littlefinger. When the Lannisters wed her to Tyrion against her will, Ser Garlan the Gallant gave her comfort, not Littlefinger. Littlefinger never lifted so much as his little finger for her.

Except to get me out. He did that for me. I thought it was Ser Dontos, my poor old drunken Florian, but it was Petyr all the while. Littlefinger was only a mask he had to wear. Only sometimes Sansa found it hard to tell where the man ended and the mask began. Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun. I have no place but here, Sansa thought miserably, and no true friend but Petyr.

—A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

As you can see Sansa is starting to realize that the persons that help her, can also hurt her and have ulterior motives to help her, that the help is not unconditional and always has a price.  

So I think she will reach a point where she would be able to do the same with all her abusers, she will realize that men like Tyrion, the Hound, Dontos, etc, have helped her but at the same time have hurt her, Tyrion accepted to marry her and almost commit marital rape, the Hound attempted to rape her and repeatedly abuse her psychologically and physically, even Dontos, always requesting kisses.  

Do you think her family will help her remember these events and dealing with it?

Most probably. Meeting Jeyne Poole again, for example. Knowing what Littlefinger really did to her, and all his crimes against House Stark.

I really hope for that moment of realization, when she can stop lying to herself, when she can clearly see all those men as her abusers and that she owns them nothing. 

George, please! She had enough already... Give her some peace and quite! Give her true friends and her family back! 

Thanks for your message.

[blue-bird-lamentation]

this the story post: melohax[.]tumblr[.]com/post/639167543643340800/warning-spoilers-ahoy-only-read-this-if-youve the game has like so many secret scenes it shocked me

Thank you so much for the link!!!

I really liked reading it. I tried to skip the hikikomori route part as I will try to calmly play it, but I‘ve read a few and, as a person who saw that seen of a man trying to cut a tree and saying “you’re not my son” it intrigued me a lot what kind of information I will get from there.

I’m still puzzled and still didn’t try to see what would happen if I collected the wrong letters and if I has opened the door to Mari.

I went far on this answer and wrote a lot of random topics that are also mentioned in that post and other things I remembered too. It’s still too messy, but my memory is fresh and I decided to write about what I was thinking, even if not organized. Sorry for using your ask, but I was inspired by the link, which I think it’s a very interesting reading. I’m also sorry for the mistakes and I may come back later to correct them. There are so many fascinating things in the game, and so many others I haven’t yet explored, besided I feel good writting all of this as it is kind of asfixiating to thing about it and not having anyone to discuss it with.

This game was a rollercoaster. I knew from the begining that the cute artstyle and the pastel colours in the begining were deceiving, especially when you start in a weird whitespace room and take a knife. Omori as a black and white coloured character among the other paster colours also felt weird.

One really interesting comment I received from my brother when he watched me playing a bit, in a fight, was  “oh your character is the real neutral one, the others seem happy” while all of them were in neutral mode. Also his happy expression was scary and he was the one who got to maniac aside from villains (at least for me). The fact he has a knife intrigued me a lot if I should really fight but at first it looked like there were no consequences (aside from feeling tremendously bad for being called bunny killer. Also about these little enemies, it’s interesting how many of them were bunnies when the person we find who has a bunny is Aubrey, which is also the girl from the group that is now “against us”, at least most of the time in the real world).

Also about the knife, there are two other moments that totally hit me:

- the suicide in whitespace, which could foreshadow his suicide in some routes, but is also the means to wake up;

- Kel and Aubrey in the real world who call us out for bringing a knife, which, since the begining, was the correct thing to do.

I really wonder a lot about his family and their decisions.

It’s been 4 years. I wonder if Sunny’s mom ever put him into some kind of therapy, I wonder if her absence was on purpose because she wanted him to say goodbye to his old friends one last time. I wonder if Kel’s visit wasn’t a coincidence. I wonder if Hero coming back was also part of a last chance to bring Sunny back. I don’t know if the other route answers it, but seeing the notes and messages that mother leaves, she seems to be worried about him. I would say a mix of worry and fear, so there must be some strong reason why she’s not there besides going to buy some furniture or whatever.

Saying this, I think only Sunny’s parents know more or less what happened, but not from their son’s mouth, from autopsy report perhaps. The house was adapted to the changes: no family picture, as opposed to what I saw in Kel’s house (and I wonder if it’s only because of Mari or also with his father too as described by the cutting tree scene. I had thought this was directed to Omori and not to Sunny, but this is also part of the dream realm, so it could be Sunny’s interpretation to the end of his parents marriage which was related to Mari’s death), Mari’s bed is gone (which made the scene when she knocks the door even creepier. I never got to open the door because I was scared, but I’m also curious). Also about the 4 years,  I liked the detail of the 4th floor sign in Last Resort, which was resting there on the floor, as the number is also cursed because it symbolizes death.

I find fascinating how the complexity of the situation is represented in the dream world. His team is composed by his old friends, which are human. Mari and Basil are also human but they weren’t totally present. Mari is the safe point and overprotective of Omori, but she is also the element who encourages him to face his fears. As he faces his fears, he unravels more information about what he repressed, also helped by the presence of the blackspace Basil. But it’s ironic as the more he unravels, the more corrupted the story seems to evolve, but also the more they lose the main purpose of rescuing Basil, which is more evident in the deeper well.

I believe the human figures are the most important to him, and then there are the elements that combine real world figures with fantasy, as the candyshop girl and the fiction space boyfriend. Each story is fascinating but it also makes you lose focus on what you were supposed to do. And in my case, there was a point where I just wanted to wander around in these stories because I was to afraid to face the real story that was masked by this fictional colourful world.

These olde friends represent perhaps what Sunny never wanted to have lost, but also what he does not want to face.

When Sunny woke up in the hospital, I first followed the kids, and no, that wasn’t the right path. That was the safe path, where there is no confrontation with reality. As it was when Sunny was with company. I think it is Aubrey who says he doesn’t like to be alone, and well, that was me the whole game, imploring to not be left alone, because once the character was alone, his world seemed to be corrupted by the black space, which was also a stepping stone to reach the truth, the dark truth.

And I really like how this is all Sunny’s mental effort, which, I would say, it’s helped by him leaving his house and meeting his friends once again, as well as facing Basil one more time.

I was really sad with how the story developed. What started I was assuming it was a facing your fears story, transformed into an overcoming someone’s death, which at first I thought it would be Basil’s, to go to Mari (which was a total mystery to me why had she died (my ingenuity believed it could have been some traffic accident or something else) at first), to go to save Basil again, but now with some dark remarks about the character himself. In the middle of this development, first time the character wakes up, it is clear that the dream world character is not the same as the real world one, age wise, but is part of him.

I had written that at first I was reluctant about the fights, but well, they were necessary to me to face the villains of each arc. But at the same time thery were never too difficult (I think the most difficult part to me was to be strong enough for the Dino Dig and the rest was pretty easy). When, at the end Sunny had to face Omori I was shocked. So, the guy I had been training which was very seemingly sadistic, did I simply train him so that if Sunny wanted to face his trauma, he would hunt him with his strenght? Like the stronger I made him, ther bigger the reluctance to overcome the past. And while this sadistic character seems to be what I would compare to a Chara in Undertale, to me it was the harsh self conscious, critical part of him who could never forgive for what he had done. And which was also manifested as the monster surrounding him and Basil. It was their perception that what they had done was unforgivable, but at the same time neither of them wanted to carry that burden alone: Sunny “forgot” it, Basil manifests it by making those toxic remarks like “you aren’t going to leave me alone again, are you?”.

I don’t know if we get to see more of Basil’s backstory but he also got me curious. I think that what both of them did was bad, but given what happened between Sunny and Mari, it was really hard to know how to face it. I don’t think it makes them willingly villains, but scared children who were very self conscious and didn’t know what would happen if people found it out.

However, hadn’t Basil been there, Sunny would have been found right away next to Mari’s corpse. So I wonder what led Basil to propose such idea and to make Sunny’s burden heavier, which made him ambiguity of his disappearance with the will to save him as a friend.

I don’t think it was an ill intention, but Basil created excuses to protect Sunny because he was important to him and to the group. As the photo album showed, Sunny was the younger element, seen as the baby of the group, and he was shy, but he loved his friends even if he looked the most expressionless.

I think these elements awoke in him the need to protect Sunny from the darkness that lied ahead his actions, but he didn’t realise how heavy of a burden that would be. At the same time he probably had some issued regardin expectations and self worth which probably told him that they could never be tied to such a cruel action, even if it was accidental.

In my perspective he didn’t see the dark shadow surrounding Sunny at the time, but he engraved the memory as an act not commited by Sunny but by something surrounding him, pretty much like when he started attacking him at the end.

I like to think that, good ending wise, the malevolent side, Omori is not necessarily a potential evil that was always within Sunny, but the self guilt and lack of self worth. The fact the Sunny wouldn’t leave the house and didn’t even take good care of his health shows it. He is self destructive, because guilt consumes him, not a person who needs to apply suffering in the outter world for his own satisfaction. The whole struggle is within Sunny and not ot become a bad person per se.

Some of Basil’s dialogue was too much for me, mainly when he kept repeating for Sunny to not leave him. However I totally understand why. Sunny covered the what had happened while Sunny had to live those years knowing what they had done, as if he was the only one carrying the burden.

It’s a real complicated story where everyone was the victim.

It was so hard to see how sad and angry Aubrey was, and how she had to make new friends to overcome, how alone she was all the time. How Kel kept being such a good person, however had to move away because he didn’t know how to face the others, afraid of being misinterpreted. Hero’s pictures with Mari break me everytime. “A match made in heaven” Basil had written in the description of one of the photos. The fact that he is the element in the group that cooks, but 4 years later he had given up. The fact he can’t face Mari’s grave. The way Kel describes his struggle over Mari’s death. The way he didn’t make new friends in college, although he says it was lack of time. Basil is completely broken and can’t even touch the camera anymore and tries to “destroy” the old memories, which Aubrey discovers. Sunny’s parents, as their life turned upside down. And probably everyone around was too afraid to know how to act around them.

I really like how despite everything, the human figure that Sunny creates of Mari is forgiveful and so cheerful. Mari is such a good influence that wants to help him overcome the trauma for himself (especially when she helps him overcoming the fear of drowning and calls him Sunny for the first time. The ways she asked for his forgiveness for pushing him so hard into playing the recital. It is still part of Sunny’s dream but it’s so in Mari’s character. I believe this part is also connected to the scene where we see her saving Sunny in the real world).

I will end this text here. I will eventually come back to it, and to the omori tag, because this is certainly a very good game with a lot of space for debate and reflection.

[snowflake-of-destruction]

So in Give it Form, you've touched on it a bit in reply comments, but while Sora is with the HB Gang, what's going through their heads? Their thoughts, their feelings? A perspective we won't see in the fic (or at least not for a while).

This is a wonderful, though provoking question that I saw late, but don't let that make you think I appreciate it any less. It's always exciting to talk about If You Give It Form.

So let's think about this a moment. I’m going to get a little long here so, let’s do a read more. I’m also going to tag some others who might have an interest in this, though if you don’t, then no obligation to even read. (ALSO SOME  CHAPTER FIVE SPOILERS)

@complicatedandstained @anewarise @soraaly 

Yuffie

Yuffie's thoughts and feelings surrounding Sora are self-centered, and there's nothing wrong with that. She has the least compassion for him and his destiny overall, or even regret for getting off on the wrong foot because 

1) They are close in age, so she sees a peer instead of thinking "oh he's so young to have such a weighty destiny." Plus, nobody ever cut her breaks (in her mind) so Sora shouldn't get coddled

2) Radiant Garden fell when she was relatively young and young memories are further blurred as a body defense mechanism against trauma. Refugee life on Traverse Town is what she knows, and that's a life where you see new people with new baggage and hear of new worlds falling and people dying on the regular. It's a life where you adapt and you struggle to grab what you can, and a place where nothing is ever really yours unless you make it so and you occupy "claimed spaces" like the waterway.  This means Sora is "wrong" for both fixating on the past and for acting like Yuffie targeted him. Yuffie doesn't target people as much as filter them out so she doesn't risk catching pesky guilt feelings. Sora should respect her hustle and she gave him his stupid necklace back when he became a person instead of just a vague defined shape transporting valuables. 

3) She did feel a little bit guilty, but then Aerith (Aerith!) started pressuring her to apologize--and both her own emotions and being "bullied" into being sorry as the new guy "tries to drive a wedge between her and her friends before he's even said a word"  make her mad. 

So she feels free to be a brat to Sora and it would have started a cycle of them just being brats to each other. At the same time though, Yuffie wouldn't have any teeth in her opinion of Sora as a brat with a chip on his shoulder. Her moods change as quickly as the wind, and she would also be trying to joke around with Sora all the time and under the assumption they are friends...until he says something that ticks her off or he proves he still not over the whole "tried to mug you" thing (like, get ooover it) and then they are sworn enemies for approximately five minutes.

She'll be genuinely disappointed when Leon returns from Olympus without Sora, but vocally scoff "Who needs him?" and half mean it because she only truly buys into this keybearer savior rhetoric because it is what Aerith and Leon buy into.

Aerith

Aerith knows Sora's importance. She doesn't just hope like Leon or Cid. She doesn't consider that Sora may just be the holder of the key for now. She sees Sora and she knows she's looking at the savior or destroyer of the worlds. It's weighty stuff, especially since Yuffie and Leon already made a bad impression on the boy in the first meeting. She, in true Aerith fashion, decided right away to keep her certainty a secret. Knowing won't be helpful to anyone else. Aerith is certain of that too. Is she right? Is it just hubris? That's up to interpretation. She definitely had a little bit of blind pride thinking she could smooth things over with Sora, though not as much as the others have on her behalf. She knows she's not infallibly charming or even successfully manipulative. She saw that Sora agreeing to stay with them was a victory in technicality only. She tried to be sincere with him after that first meeting--not that she was ever technically insincere in the first place--but it is a difficult balance because why she does think Sora is a charming young man and wants to give him the friendship and show him the understanding and compassion he deserves, they do badly need him on their side, so there can never be true objectivity or selflessness. Moreover, he needs to pushed at a certain pace if there are going to be worlds left to save and they all want to live to see them restored. Beyond that, Aerith is also the only one who, at this early point, fully realizes that there is reason to be scared of Sora not just scared for him. She is going to be besides herself when Leon comes back without Sora, but bury it down, only letting out a sigh and saying he's in fate's hands not and they have to trust in his heart to guide him, because she does believe in Sora's good heart, even if she didn't get a chance to know him as well as she would like.

Cid

This man only wants to keep his family together. He isn't sure about this keybearer because he doesn't want to be sure. He had some of his explorer heart and spitfire nature crash and burn upon exit from the falling Radiant Garden though he doesn't show it outwardly.  There's a reason you never find him in the coliseum. If it were at all practical, he'd keep Cloud, Leon, Aerith, Yuffie, and Sora all on Traverse Town with him. Yuffie would take over the accessory shop. Aerith would have a flower shop. Leon and Cloud would be working with the displaced refugees with Aerith on consult. Sora would be his assistant and they'd make a fleet of gummi ships for different clients and occasions. Cid is a practical man though. He knows what needs to be done and he's already let go of all of them...though it doesn't make it easier, especially after what happened to....well, we'll get to that (kind of) in Leon's section. He won't be seen for days after Sora leaves and then he'll come out with a gummi blueprint of a ship shaped like a crown, drafted in slightly shaky lines like it was drawn while drunk. Also, on a different topic, I think he does know how shady Ansem the Wise was, but you've got to believe in some heroes in life, so he wills himself to discount it.

Leon

Leon is a series of traumatic backstories stacked on top of each other, held together by belts, and pretending to be cold steel. He's a little bit more well-adjusted than FFVIII's Squall "If you want someone to listen, go talk to a wall" Leonhart (And, granted probably a little less well adjusted than what is seen in canon Kingdom Hearts) but he is a man constantly on the edge of a breakdown and repressing everything, and he expects everyone else to be the same, and, moreover, requires it to a degree so he can continue to function.  He's either an orphan, or, if he embraces the "far out" theory that  Laguna Loire not only is his father, but is actually a keybearer who disappeared because he ran off planet...which, hold everything for a detour, IS CLOSER TO KINGDOM HEARTS CANON THAN YOU THINK

Laguna Loire was supposed to be a stranded keyblade wielder in the mirage arena in BBS. but was cut from the game, and there are sources on this, though this is all I was able to recall on a moment's notice.

The more you knoooow.

Anyway, KH Laguna Loire is a keyblade wielder and a deadbeat dad. That's a fact.

So, yeah, if Leon admits Laguna might be his dad then he admits his dad maybe ran out and didn’t want him (Is the truth more nuanced than that? Duh, but we aren’t talking about that now). Here we have Squall Leonhart. Abandoned before he was even born. Sister abducted to be experimented on. Considered unadoptable because he was a feral problem child. One person he was close to (Seifer) died when Radiant Garden fell (so he thinks).  And then there's Rinoa.

 If you missed the implications about Rinoa in chapter five, let me spell it out for you. 

"Cid, Cloud, Aerith, Yuffie, Rinoa, and I were the only survivors of Hollow Bastion." Leon was firm, perhaps for his own sanity. "Now there's even less."

Rinoa died an unspecified time after Radiant Garden's fall.

Then there's this quote from Hades and Maleficent's later response.

"Remember what happened to the last one? We got back an Angel Star and a Bad Dog and what does that get us? Zilch!"

"The case was..." Maleficent hesitated a moment, trailing a finger in an absent repeated ring around the top of the bulb of her staff, " different with the sorceress."

I'll not comment, but have some pictures.

We'll get to how long Rinoa survived on Traverse Town, her relationship with Leon, and the circumstances of her kidnapping and subsequent death later on in the story. Fun times.

Come on. You know I had to do it. I was originally going to not have Rinoa or have made her die on Radiant Garden, but, think about Kingdom Hearts 1 canon. Yuffie still accidentally calls Leon "Squall" which implies his name change of shame because he can't protect people and his wanting to die was fairly recent, not nine years ago when RG fell, and people are still adjusting to it. I had to sprinkle on extra flavor.

So why is this all relevant to Leon and Sora? I'm glad you asked.

Like I said, KH Leon/Squall is not FFVIII's Squall "Hell is Other People. Prove Me Wrong" Leonhart that needs to be defrosted throughout the game. He has a found family he accepts and has to admit cares about him, so he's closer to the Squall at the end of FFVIII but he still is stilted and has the mindset that everyone you love will leave or die, so the least painful option is not to care in the first place--especially since he thinks Sora is going to die 100%. Hell, he would be sure he was going to die if he was the keybearer too, which is partially why he wanted the keyblade. Go out fighting the 1000 Heartless Battle.

But he has to befriend Sora, not just train him, and it's painful, especially because Sora requires a lot from people as much of a giver as Sora typically is too. Sora wants to crack him open to see he's not just machinery and it's painful (and it reminds him of Rinoa "I wish you would just voice your feelings, Squall. How else will the people you care about know them?" Heartilly. Whoops). He has to prove his sincerity and niceness to this guy who had the nuclear family and the friends and the peaceful life and was trying to escape, also the boy who was chosen to have the keyblade, also a boy who can't accept that sometimes you just have everyone die on you and though it shatters you, you have to move on and realize they aren't there to look for. 

Terrible. Yet Leon tries so hard and fails....and blames himself for failing. 

And though he should resent Sora a bit, mostly he's just sad for him too. But Sora is the chosen one and he needs to toughen up so the worlds don't eat him up.

He really hopes Sora is going to be okay, and that it wasn't all his fault Sora is leaving...though it probably is, he thinks. Failed at this too.

[oleanderblume]

Okay more spinel

Because her character is cool and I like her.

So let's get on with this.

I know a shut ton of people heavily relate to spinel because she has an ostensibly relatable backstory, but also because she represents BPD to a rather miraculous extent. And I am in the mood to explain WHY.

So, when a lot and I mean majority neurotypical folks hear of BPD they think "this person is abusive and dangerous" obviously that's not always the case, the ironic contrast I have been seeing is that despite spinel's character typing, people are falling head over heals for her while at the same time; if faced with someone who actually does have BPD they would probably feel threatened by them. More on that later.

Anyways, how does BPD work? Why is spinel a decent example for someone with bpd?

Bpd or borderline personality disorder is a trauma based disorder characterized by extreme paranoia, fear of abandonment, social withdrawal or lashing out, excessive emotional eruption (feeling everything very loudly and all at once, but only short periods of time), general lack of identity and purpose, and spiraling among other things.

Because borderline personality stems from trauma and abuse, usually neglect of some sort, the person who has it has an innate urge to please others, a desire to be seen and heard and cared for heavily contradicted by their unstable fear and paranoia surround the people they most care for, that contradiction is what causes emotional outbursts and spiraling.

So, let's apply this to spinel in a way that's understandable aside from just pointing out the similarities in the disorder and her characterization.

Spinel has a history of prolonged abuse, despite gems living for thousands upon thousands of years, spinel is relatively young in comparison to her primary abuser, pink diamond. (Because spinel was made for pink and thus existed after pink)

Pink diamond is also her primary source of companionship. To put it into time relevance, pink is like a twelve year old, and spinel is like a 6 year old.

Spinel's only goal is to entertain and be a friend to pink, but she relies heavily on pink to be consistent in her approval of what spinel does as entertainment (truthful) and she relies on pinks companionship for the relationship to function as it's supposed to. She gives entertainment and companionship in return for approval and companionship.

The balance became off kilter due to pink wanting other than that companionship, a colony, and lack of proper communication leading to her manipulating spinel into playing a game she could not win.

Pink didnt communicate her disapproval of spinel's behavior, which in turn exasperated her own enjoyment with spinel, leading to that manipulation.

This lack of communication spurs the desire for approval in spinel's character, she wants to be good and a friend, was lead to believe she was, when in reality she wasn't, in her eyes. The realization of this began to dawn on her after pink left, but likely before Steven's message ie:

"Is this how it goes, am I doing it right?"

Spinel spent 6000 years in the garden waiting for pink to come back, under the impression that if she continued to play the game, correctly, that she would eventually return. Hence, her desire to be seen as a good friend who obeys and entertains above all else.

This is why she displays a deep desire to be a good gem be good at her job, and why she feels that she inherently isn't.

After she receives Steven's message, she is forced into the realization that the game didnt matter, pink wasnt ever going to come back, from her perspective, pink didnt care for her or want to be her friend, which causes spinel to feel like she is a bad gem, that she doesnt do her job, that she isnt good enough.

Spinel has received only the information from the broadcast (I am including the book reading in this because it sets up the broadcast scene and white diamond speaks to the screen directly after) she knows very little about the rebellion, or the war, only that pink made new friends, had a son and didnt come back for her withing the numerous perceived opportunities she could have. This aspect is important, as if the broadcast told the whole truth, spinel likely would have understood a bit more of the gravity of the events that had taken place.

After spinel learns of pinks new friends and Steven's existence, this is when her severe neglect and abandonment as well as a loss of identity kick in, she is filled with rage, despair and self loathing.

Spinel has lost her identity, her purpose, because she feels she isnt good enough for what she was made to do, despite being a perfect cut, she is nothing, all she will ever be is nothing, nothing to pink, nothing to anyone, nothing to herself.

After having no companionship and no means of safe emotional outlet, spinel is effectively blindsided by the sudden and impactful amount of pain and hate she is feeling. She has no way of confronting this emotion, and she doesnt know how to confront it so she does the next best thing, vent it out on people who were closest to pink, her best friends.

Essentially spinel cant focus her rage on pink diamond because she is gone, so instead she will focus it on the people who, to her, took pink away from her.

Now, given spinel's self deprecating nature, she likely had no real plan afterward, more than likely, she fully intended to be poofed, rejuvenated or shattered. After all, she is nothing to pink, and she is even less to Steven, she doesnt deserve to exist.

From observation, the speed at which she arrived on earth from after she heard the broadcast, she was likely having a severe mental breakdown and spiral, which can be incredibly hard to get out of when one has low self esteem and no proper means of emotional release.

A spiral is when a person (or in this case a character) becomes self deprecating and an increasingly more volatile rate, they are incredibly hard to get out of because the mental illness doesnt allow positive thought, the person will feel bad for their actions or feel bad about trauma or failures and will continually throw insults at themselves or those around them for trying to convince them differently.

Spinel spirals twice in the movie, the most excellent example is her paranoia of being abandoned leading to irrational thought and self depreciative spiraling and lashing out as a means of emotional protection.

I'm not really going to speak on the middle of the movie because it essentially rehashes that emotional trauma and neglect I mentioned earlier, the only difference is that is is comparable to a person with BPD who has effectively repressed those traumatic memories and is slowly reliving them, which subsequently causes a major relapse.

What I will say however, is that some other common symptoms appear in spinel like they do with folks with BPD. Spinel has an fp. A favorite person basically.

Folks with BPD often pick a companion of theirs and become extremely attached to them, they care incredibly deeply for them, and can also feel incredibly betrayed by them when they dont act in ways that the person is comfortable ie; displaying traits that can, to the person with BPD lead to abandonment.

Folks with BPD also tend to tailor their personalities for their companions in order to receive that approval they desire most.

Spinel displays this fairly effectively when she lashes out at Steven when he tells her to stay with the new crystal gems, she also displays the tailor trait when she mimics amethysts actions during the nobody else duet.

Finally, when spinel reverts back to her dark form, she displays the other symptoms of BPD, hesitance to trust, then blind trust and desire to please, her paranoia over Steven leaving her, and the subsequent spiral leading her to lash out in effort to protect herself from more emotional trauma and eventually dropping out of her spiral and then the final, trying to leave before abandonment can happen.

This is a fairly important one, as a lot of folks with BPD tend to feel that abandonment is an eventuality, and another form of protection from that is purposely distancing oneself and leaving before that abandonment can take place.

Spinel, after her second spiral is still very much traumatized, and still very much self destructive, has low self esteem, despite wanting to be better, so to spare herself the pain of facing people she has actively harmed in her worst moments, and to spare herself from what she believes is an eventual abandonment, she desires to leave and start over.

Do I think this is healthy? Mmm..no. mostly because I know that folks with BPD have an incredibly hard time breaking paranoia, low self esteem and self destructive behavior. I definitely dont think that spinel should have left with the diamonds because they have no idea what she is capable of and what she has been through, or how to deal with her self destructive behavior in a healthy way. They arent even able to completely overcome their own abusive behavior so..no, I dont think it was a good decision to have her go with them. But that doesnt really matter right now lol.

What matters is; spinel is a good example of what it is like to have BPD, she is a good example of the low self esteem and self destructive behaviour people with BPD have. She is a good example because she isn't seen as a completely lost cause by Steven and the others, despite what she herself believes. She has an acurate portrayal of the trauma that develops bpd, the symptoms of BPD in an easily digestible way and she isnt portrayed to have these issues completely resolved by the end of the film.

She very VERY quickly jumps into another relationship that can very easily be destroyed by either the diamonds or herself, and still struggles with low self esteem and the desire to be approved of by Steven, and the diamonds.

She isnt fixed by the end. But she doesnt get treated as a terrible person either.

Most people who talk about BPD who dont have it themselves very often say that they are inherently abusive, and overlook that persons trauma. That doesnt happen for spinel, Steven sympathizes with her trauma, despite largely being sidetracked and not fully indulged in helping her for her sake, rather than helping his own needs.

It's understandable and infuriating at the same time. Because the type of person spinel is, requires a different approach and a far more delicate one at that, something Steven hasn't had the same quite of experience with yet. Which is what largely caused her to spiral the second time. And it wasnt until Steven realized how selfish he had been that he was able to even make a proper and not misleading connection with spinel.

So there you have it, my analysis of spinel, why she portrayed BPD very very well, and how bod is a largely misunderstood and stigmatized disorder.