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babybells123 · 6 months ago

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Regarding the original outline + some thoughts on Jon & Sansa…

This is a long one. Buckle up.

If there is one thing I have picked up on in the ASOIAF fandom, it’s the knee-jerk negative reaction towards any theory/parallel/connection between Jon and Sansa. This was exacerbated by the show, of course but even now - five years later, there is an insane amount of vitriol that my brain is unable to comprehend. And here’s the rub; the infamous 1993 outline is the irony of it all.

In a fandom that is a-okay with *certain* incest ships (r.e D@enerys x Jon, D@emon x Rh@enyra, Jon x Aria), as well as blatantly pedophilic ships (Sansa x S@ndor, Sansa x Littlefinger, Sansa x Tyrio*), how is Jon x Sansa the worst of them all? I’m going to pin it down to audience engagement with the show, particularly around the later seasons when Jon + Sansa reunite and people began to ‘ship’ them. So many believe that is how the ship took off, and thus it is mere crack - but there are posts tracking back to 2012/2013 theorising the possibility of Jon x Sansa. Was it spurred by the show? Certainly! But it does not take away from the fact that people were making valid arguments and essays before the general fandom was even comprehending a Jon and Sansa reunion on screen. And people were open to discussing/debating it with general civility (a far cry from today).

I’m 90% certain people weren’t criticising those who began to believe in Jon x Aria when the outline was leaked…(though there were most definitely shippers before). But we never see the same level of vitriol towards Jon x Aria shippers, which is strange.

In any case, let’s talk about said outline, some of the key points - and how I believe GRRM made the switch from Jon x Aria to Jon x Sansa. I’ll be drawing from GRRM’s past works, interviews, art, and his personal life - as well as other potential literary influences. I'll be linking metas along the way, but without further ado - let's go.

In October 1993, GRRM wrote a pitch outline for a publishing company. It was three pages long and conveyed alongside the first thirteen chapters of AGOT (170 pages). The three paged letter was leaked on twitter in February 2014, though there were multiple aspects parts blacked out. Keep in mind though, this may not be the *only* outline that exists. There are multiple outlines that have never been publicly released (and will likely remain that way).

But let’s just focus on the 1993 outline, since we’re privy to the details. The thirteen chapters attached to the outline did *not* yet have a Sansa POV, and that’s because in this outline, she wasn’t listed as a key character.

The key characters were; Bran, Jon, Tyrion, D@enerys, and Aria.

The first thirteen chapters were; Prologue; Bran I, Catelyn I, D@enerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Aria I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II, D@enerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II.

I’ve seen people claim that Sansa isn’t an important character since she wasn’t listed as a key character, but they conveniently leave out the fact that a) her chapters were not yet written, b)she was given an entirely different more passive storyline in this outline, c) she dies, d) this was far far before GRRM fleshed out his characters entirely - Sansa took on a life of her own and she became her own solid complex character with an arc in 4 out of 5 of the books; 25 chapters.

In fact, since the books have been published GRRM has regarded Sansa and the Starks as a main character as well;

Collider: In creating this world, did you start out with one family and then branch off into the rest of the world?

GRRM: Well, the Starks are certainly the centre of the story, when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways ... .But, the Starks are the centre of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players.

Collider: When you went into this, did you intentionally take the children, put them in an adult setting and force them to be in very adult and complex situations?

GRRM: Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that.”

Collider report.

May 2016 - Balticon.

(…) George said he was “pissed” that the outline was posted in the office building and that someone took photos and shared them. He said it was a letter for him and the publisher only. He was very firm when telling this and it showed on his face.

He then said that he is not good with writing outlines, making book deadlines, and that often in outlines he was “making shit up”, and “characters changed along the way”.

He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the “differences” in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).

[question if he is still going with the 1991 ending]

“Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters.

….

“So a lot of the minor characters I’m still discovering along the way. But the mains-”

[question if he knows Arya’s and Jon’s fates]

“Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”

Balticon report:

“Ah, how innocent I was… little did that guy in the picture imagine that he would be spending most of the next two decades in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros with Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, and all the rest.”

GRRM's live journal:

So Sansa has clearly developed into an important character from GRRM’s words, and the key-characters argument can cease, because It’s very tiring to dispel that when the characters and story took on a life of its own. (I mean, Jaime was meant to remain a villain, but he was clearly given somewhat of a redemption arc in the main series).

I paraphrased what was written here for this whole section, so go check out the longer post!

The Aria in the original outline:

*NOTE: I am blacking out her actual names in case the wrong people find this post. None of this anti her, please keep that in mind.*

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, [...] The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, D@enerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Aria, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Aria escape back to Winterfell.

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Aria. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.

Aria will be more forgiving ... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Aria throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Aria's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Aria Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow

Observations:

Exactly how old is Aria? Is she a warrior princess who cries at songs like her aunt? Does she enjoy/yearn for romance? Is she a stunningly beautiful maiden rivalling that of Cersei? How close were she and Jon? Did they have a good sibling relationship? Or were they distant? Does she look physically different to Jon? Does she have red hair?

The Sansa of the Original Outline:

‘Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.’

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

More observations:

How old is Sansa? Is she 16? 17? She’s conveyed as a less important character in this outline - why? Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? She dies? Jaime kills her? What is her relationship with Aria like? Are/were they close? Or was Sansa initially meant to be a two-tone villain who betrayed her family? Is she overwhelmingly beautiful? Or is she the plainer sister?

It’s quite clear that both ASOIAF Aria and ASOIAF Sansa are entirely different characters to their outlined counterparts.

In the outline, Tyrion sacks and burns Winterfell. In ASOIAF, It’s Theon and later Ramsay who does this. In the outline, it’s Bran, Aria, and Catelyn who go beyond the Wall. In ASOIAF, it’s Bran, Meera, and Jojen (and Hodor). There are a couple of other changes made here, but there seems a pattern where certain acts *still* occur in the main series, they’re just given to different characters (which makes sense, as GRRM grows organically with his characters.)

So, when we take into account the fact of ASOIAF Sansa being considered a main/key character, her marriage to Tyrion, and the possibility of her being the first to reunite with Jon - perhaps GRRM did keep a Stark x Snow romance - but gave it to a different sister.

In the 2016 Balticon report, GRRM stated he wished that ‘some past things didn’t have such strong foreshadowing and that newer things had stronger foreshadowing.’ You can make a case for J0nrya foreshadowing in the first book, but I’d argue that ACOK/ASOS is where the Jon/Sansa clues and foreshadowing is rife. (and there are certainly Jon/Sansa clues in the first book as well.)

Now to circle back. The Aria of this outline doesn’t have a personality - none of the characters do, really. We don’t know how old she is. Is she a teenager? Is she close in age to Jon? We know she has her needle, so can infer she is a fighter and spirited, but is there a soft romantic side to her? Does she cry at songs like her aunt Lyanna? Does she yearn for love? Is she immensely beautiful? For a narrative like this? It'd be likely if Jon and Tyrion are fighting to the death over her, sort of like gallant knights fighting each other to win the heart of a fair maiden (very romantic and idealistic, mirroring the songs and the stories).

(This is how I am certainly inferring such a scene would have gone).

The ASOIAF Aria we know and love took on a life of her own. She’s described as plain looking (some envision her to be more beautiful than characters like D@ny, Cersei, and Sansa though). - But just quickly on that matter, Aria is indeed compared to Lyanna in looks and spirit, though Lyanna’s beauty was described as wild and implied as non-conventional; different perspectives have different opinions on her. For example, Cersei, Jaime, Devan, the Maester who wrote the WOIAF don’t consider her anything special. Whereas Ned, Robert, and Rhaegar do. So it’s one of those instances where you aren’t exactly sure. In any case, Aria's looks aren't a driving factor in her arc, and I don’t see ASOIAF Tyrion (as creepy as he is) suddenly falling in love with her due to mere attraction because presently, Aria is all knobbly knees and elbows, stick thin, a child, not a maiden, who will still be a pre-teen at the end of the series, if there is no massive time jump.

SHE'S JUST A BABY.

But then, Tyrion did lust after Sansa, so there’s that… however ….

Sansa’s beauty is a driving force in her narrative arc. She is objectified for her beauty. Preyed upon because of her beauty; in many ways it causes her to suffer. It’s largely why LF is grossly infatuated with her - she’s beautiful like Catelyn. Tyrion is attracted to Sansa and wishes to bed her, the H0und intends to rape her during the Blackwater battle, he also comments on her breasts growing, Joffrey sexually humiliates her in court, Ser Dontos has a pervy infatuation with her, Cersei despises Sansa because she is younger, more beautiful etc which she views as a threat.

So, beauty is pertinent to Sansa’s narrative, and it isn’t vain or shallow to say so because it’s a large part as to why she suffers. And her physical beauty is meant to compliment her indulgence in romantic idealism; knights, chivalry, courtly love, beautiful appearances thus equating to good people. It also contributes to perceptions of Sansa; nothing more than a pretty, stupid girl with naive dreams.

So back to ASOIAF Aria: Her arc largely surrounds nature & nature, mercy, war trauma and survival, friendship, belonging, and family. For the majority of the story, she is a traumatised 10 year old travelling through a war torn country, witness to awful horrors, forced to assume multiple identities, until she goes to Braavos and begins her faceless man arc. But this is obviously not her endgame - she is going to go home eventually, that is quite clear.

You can argue she had a little crush on Gendry (as a 10 year old would) (and perhaps something may happen with him when she is older, I think GRRM has played with it.) But other than that, romance is not a central part of Aria's arc insofar. For outline Aria it was, but current ASOIAF Aria is on a completely different tangent all together.

(and that poor poor child is suffering immensely while this is all occurring). Currently, she has no time for/interest in it. She hasn’t been involved in betrothals/marriages, or had men lusting after her (save ‘Mercy’ and people men making brutalising sexual comments towards her). She disguises herself as a boy for a good chunk of the story as it is safer to travel.

No, I’m not trying to reduce any sexual trauma/objectification she suffers, she’s a little girl for heaven’s sake - I’m merely stating that what she is going through is in some ways similar and different to what Sansa is going through. (Who currently is in a in a very Lolita type situation with LF and men sexually intimidating/abusing her has been a key part of her arc - as I said, she suffers significantly due to her beauty. She is something to possess, she isn't real or tangible, she is a beautiful maid with a vast claim to the North.)

Anyway, ASOIAF Aria finds songs and romance ‘stupid.’

“Sansa would have shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.” (Arya VIII ASOS)

(but that doesn’t mean she won’t encounter it later in life, it just means that at this point of the story, she isn’t interested/likely won't encounter some epic grand romance that outline Aria was likely destined for. (And she’s 11 for god’s sake!).

‘But Sansa was dreaming of love at that age!’

Sansa has been a romantic idealistic dreamer since she was a little girl. She adored those stories and is the literal embodiment of the mediaeval pre-raphaelite maiden depicted in art. It’s central to her story arc, to her qualities, and how she functions/copes with things around her. “Life is not a song.” Is so fundamental to that.

So to reiterate ASOIAF Aria is a completely different character to outline Aria- for all we know OG Aria was 15 years old, very beautiful to the point of men duelling over her, (just as depicted in art above) likely a romantic heroine, had consistent memory lapses that would cause her to “realise in terror, she had fallen for Jon,” and based off of GRRM’s past works - was probably a redhead.

“But OG Aria has a sword named needle!”

Indeed, but as I stated, we don’t know anything else about her beyond that. Many have theorised that D@ny and Jon are the epic romance of the series, but it’s clear from this particular outline that GRRM intended for it to be Aria and Jon as the epic major romance of the series. That would mean Aria would have to be a somewhat romantically-inclined character, for this development to appear natural and not forced. Based on her current ASOIAF arc, it doesn��t track for her character to make a sudden 180. Her softness and vulnerable moments come from thinking of her family and home. Insofar, this isn’t equated to yearning for love, romance, children, as Sansa has done from the beginning of the series.

Now, we know GRRM is a self-proclaimed romantic, and ASOIAF Sansa exists very much as a deconstruction of romanticism.

“He said he is a romantic, in the classical sense. He said the trouble with being a romantic is that from a very early age you keep having your face smashed into the harshness of reality. That things aren’t always fair, bad things happen to good people, etc. he said it’s a realistic world, so romantics are burned quite often. This theme of romantic idealism conflicting with harsh reality is something he finds very dramatic and compelling, and he weaves it into his work.” (2005 interview).

Sansa is arguably, the embodiment of this dismantling. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that love isn’t real, or that it doesn’t deserve to exist in a gritty world such as Westeros. There were many couples who had good, happy marriages, even after war and loss and trauma. For example, apart from the Jon Snow situation, Ned and Catelyn had a remarkably healthy relationship. So it is possible - the takeaway from the series is not that hoping is meaningless, dreams are meaningless, love is meaningless. More so that it is complicated, and it must coexist alongside all the chaos in order to achieve a sort of

equilibrium. A literal ‘Dream of Spring’ a hope for happiness, rather than happiness itself. It tracks with the bittersweet conclusion to the series ; it is a grimdark story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll be a grimdark ending where everyone good and noble dies and wishes/dreams/innate desires remain unfulfilled.

In fact, I argue that a lot of them will come true - but at what cost? It’ll be at the cost of loss and grief, of suffering upon suffering, but what’s inherently more powerful, what’s more subversive is having those characters persist and rebuild, regenerate, create a new world where love and chaos undoubtedly exist alongside each other, but just because there is chaos, that does not mean the love is miniscule or cancels out entirely.

Because if all these characters have the most unsatisfying, awful conclusions known to man, well - what was the point of everything? What was the point of their journeys? This isn’t a nihilistic story, and it won’t have a nihilistic ending like everyone assumes. It’s far more difficult for an author to craft such an ending, balancing things out whilst acknowledging all the loss and still holding out hope for a better future to come. That brighter days will arrive. That winter will end, and spring will be on the horizon.

“We may lose our heads, it’s true. But what if we prevail?” (Davos I ADWD).

And that right there, sums it up perfectly.

So you need characters like Sansa, characters like Brienne, D@ny, (you know what let’s just add all the Stark children of the series to the list, because every single character arc is about remaining resilient and prevailing in some way or another).

But it’s Sansa who exists as the meta character that embodies/indulges in all those romantic ideals that GRRM is intent on exploring - it thus makes perfect sense for it to be her that experiences the romance arc. Many people think she’ll end up with the H0und, or Harry the douchebag, because it’s a part of her growing up, maturing, learning from her negative biases etc etc but she shouldn’t have to be with abusive or douchy men to learn that. She’s already learned and suffered enough.

“It is my claim they want. No one will ever marry me for love.”

And how utterly heartbreaking that she has resigned to think this, with her arc only mid-way. But importantly, just a few chapters later she enters the garden of undisputed beauty and equates the snow landing on her face with romantic kisses, she dreams of innocence and winterfell, despite lamenting how she doesn’t belong in such a pure world, she steps out into it all the same. And she builds her home in the snow, content and for once - she’s the child she is, the child she is yearning to be.

So Sansa falling in love with Jon makes sense on a characteristic level. It’s something she never would have considered as a sheltered child, not just because he’s her bastard half brother but because he just didn’t exist in her idea of how the world works. He didn’t fit in with her idea of knights, and courtly love and chivalry. He wasn’t a gallant golden prince, he was dark, sulky and brooding. He existed on the parameters of her life, and she was comfortable with that distant association - but she still loved him, and he her.

Falling in love with Jon would equate to a dismantling of these previous prejudices she held; he’s utterly unconventional, the opposite of what she has shown attraction to (despite her first ‘love’ being Waymar Royce, who resembles Jon strikingly). The man she never really considered beyond courtesy and some scarce, fond memories - to be the one who restores her faith in men, in love, in dreams.

“Realising with terror that she has fallen in love with Jon… their passion will continue to torment them.”

tracks with Sansa’s characterisation particularly, her memory lapses, her clouded judgement, and inability to interpret things correctly (and something as confusing as this would certainly cause her to have some cognitive dissonance going on).

Not to mention caution around well… men. Because who would ever marry her for love? Who would ever take her for true? Love her without expectations and judgement? It’s Jon. Who has been there since the very beginning, who has been a silent unconscious hero, the answer to her prayers, who embodies all those romantic and knightly ideals she has so desperately wanted - despite her being unaware. Who has advocated for her claim - above everyone else.

“No one will ever marry me for love.” And that infamous Jon chapter follows. Jon who is never quite far from Sansa’s suitors. Jon, who has a similar dream of rebuilding Winterfell, of having children named after lost siblings, who wants to woo a girl by giving her a rose and loving beneath the heart tree - the heart of Winterfell. Who would undeniably want to have that beautiful soul-nourishing love he never received as a child, that he believes is perpetually unavailable to him.

Above all, they just fit together. It fits with GRRM’s William Faulkner-esque “the human heart in conflict with itself".” And this is a perfectly subversive way of encapsulating that Jon confusing brotherly love and affection with romance, struggling with the shame of it all - especially post-resurrection, the religious disillusionment that would occur, the notion of Jon being loved by the kind of girl he believed he never had the right to, who his deeply romantic heart is yearned for. (There is a reason GRRM let us know how badly Jon yearns for domesticity, Winterfell love, children, and a wife. He associates his love for Ygritte with her singing, her hair, her smile. He dreams of her tending to him with gentle hands) The simple yet meaningful things that have been denied to him because of his bastardry. And god, what better way to torment these two than by having them fall for each other - realising they fit each other so perfectly, yet tormented by their familial relation. Until, as the outline puts, the parentage is revealed.

Do I believe they will act on their feelings pre-parentage reveal? No. It’ll likely exist in the subtext, in private thoughts and actions. Angst, guilt. Again, the stuff that GRRM loves - the human heart is in conflict with itself.

Much like Lord Byron’s ‘The Bride of Abydos.” Where half-siblings fall in love with each other until they realise they are actually cousins. Lord Byron, who was famously in love with his half sister Augusta, who was a stranger to him for a good portion of his life until they properly got to know each other and fell in love. (Who does that sound like?’)

And if you’re wondering how Jon and Sansa could possibly connect to Lord Byron, well there is a ‘Byron the Beautiful’ in Alayne II AFFC, and Alayne I TWOW. GRRM has further instilled characters by the name of “Manfred” which is in reference to Lord Byron’s infamous work of the same name. (I urge you to check out all of Cappy's Byron metas, they are fantastic.

And, Jon has been called a “Brooding, Byronic, romantic heroine whom all the girls love.” GRRM knows what Byronic is inferring - he isn’t daft, he’s a writer - he reads other works and takes influence and sprinkles in so many things.

A Byronic character involves:

. . romantic melancholy, guilt for secret sin, pride, defiance, restlessness, alienation, revenge, remorse, moodiness, and such noble virtues as honor, altruism, courage, and pure love for a gentle woman. (Poetry Foundation, Lord Byron)

“GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers… which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don’t know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there’s always been something in the twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has.”

Infinity plus:

And isn’t that exactly what he would be exploring with Jon and Sansa? It isn’t a conventional romance by any means. It could never exist normally until Jon’s parentage is revealed. And that is the tormented nature of it, that is the “bittersweetness” of it - it is rooted in realism, yes - and that to me, is Sansa receiving her true love, countering that no one would ever marry her for love. The gods will grant it to her, - but it’s wrapped up in this darker, morally ambiguous thing that is confusing for her, even though Jon would be her dream come true - he isn’t this neat little courtly golden package, but he embodies all those ideals more than any man she’s actually met.

It’s subversive to what both the characters and the readers expect, and it’s just a brilliant plot twist that screams unpredictability whilst fitting together like a perfect puzzle. It creates internal conflict and evokes those themes that GRRM loves to explore. By giving the ‘heroes’ of the series a motif such as incest is extremely bold; because it challenges the reader greatly. Some people don’t want Jon to end up with Sansa because it contradicts the image that they have of him in his head - the heroic male who will save the world with his heroic counterpart and together they shall rule the seven kingdoms. To embrace his father’s family, claim a dragon, fulfil the prophecy, be the third head of the dragon, reject his stark-ness. Very predictable. Done to death a thousand times over, and yet - it is what the general audience wants/expects. It’s what the dudebros who call him the ‘GOAT’ want, it’s what the Targ stans want, it’s what the show watchers wanted - but what does Jon want?

“Yet he could not let the wildlings breach the Wall, to threaten Winterfell and the north, the barrowlands and the Rills, White Harbor and the Stony Shore, even the Neck. For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins. Bran and Rickon are still at Winterfell besides. Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, Old Nan, Farlen the kennelmaster, Mikken at his forge and Gage by his ovens . . . everyone I ever knew, everyone I ever loved.” (Jon II ASOS).

“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

"He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“Red eyes, Jon realised, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”

He had his answer then." (Jon XII ASOS)

“He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.” (Jon VI ASOS)

“Ygritte answered for him. "His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell." (Jon VIII ACOK)

"Then you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." (Jon VI ASOS).

“You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.” (Jon XII ASOS)

“He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.” (Jon V ASOS).

“If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.” (Jon IX AGOT).

Look, at the end of the day - we don't know how the story will go, but based off of Jon’s character arc? His thoughts? His actions? His relationships with his siblings? The fact that he has warged into a magical beast directly associated with Starks? The North? The Old Gods? The weir wood trees? I think that instead of GRRM having Jon go down the conventional disadvantaged male hero finding out he is a secret prince and thus becoming King and a proper Targ, GRRM will subvert expectations (much to audience displeasure) and do the opposite.

Learning of his true identity will just cause more angst and a major identity crisis. The one thing Jon finds real and solid, that no one can take from him - is that he is Ned Stark’s son. He raised him. Perhaps they don’t share a direct blood link. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is that he was raised by him, loved by him. So instead of choosing his father’s family; embracing the secret prince persona and fighting for the throne - he’ll choose his mother’s family. And I think that is beautifully conclusive.

But back to Jon and Sansa. GRRM is given the opportunity to explore the sort of impact this incest motif has on fundamentally good people. And I think this is what he originally intended to do with Jon and Aria.

Yes, we have Jaime and Cersei, but this is real sibling incest and rife with toxic narcissism, possession etc. We have the T@rgaryens, which are messy beyond belief and practice it due to blood purity.

But Jon and Sansa clearly differ from the rest, and that is because they exist partly as foils as to what we previously have seen. Similar to Jonnel x Sansa. By intentionally refraining from the development of a properly-close sibling relationship, making Jon and Sansa fundamental opposites visually, and associating them with entirely different cultures (yet writing their core personas as the same, their dreams compatible, their thought process and idealism similar).

GRRM manages to pave the way into such a romance that comes as a shock to the characters, the narrative, and readers themselves. Because no one, absolutely no one would see it coming, and the people who have been privy to the theory - immediately dismiss it - and become quite angry when it is brought up. Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction.

To quote this brilliant meta right here:

‘Whether Jon and Sansa fall in love is up to the author and his intended exploration of literary/mythic themes that his predecessors have deployed. He is not writing from (or for) the moral values of show watchers and book readers, or their anecdotal hopes for how things “should be.” He’s writing a narrative that breaks away from conventional storytelling and what we expect from such characters.’

…

‘ I don’t believe the author is giving up completely on the romantic dream. He has made Sansa more cautious, converted her dreams into mere prayers, and has forced her to examine her assumptions, but he’s not turning her into the H0und, who is too pessimistic and fatalistic as a suitor. Sandor’s assertion that all knights are killers makes fantasy so small, it’s eliminated. I think he is setting Sansa on a path where her dreams do die, and her life becomes about as romantic as that smokestack in Cleveland - until they start to come alive again when she travels North to the Wall.’

'That cold, hard reality is still present in the fact that they are brother and sister, but once Jon’s parentage is revealed, this will change. Like an inverted Cinderella (clock striking 12), the reality will become fantasy again. But it’s still inladen with this bitter reality of their relations. So taking this into account, I believe Jon and Sansa could happen because there is no other couple in the series with which GRRM can explore his fascination with fantasy becoming “smaller,” but not completely shrinking altogether. There are no two better characters who represent these ideas, who have the same quietly domestic desires - who do not (at the moment) actively lust for power and cause it to blind them.'

So in essence, Jon and Sansa exist as the subversion of romance. In a twisted, loving sort of way that is morally conflicting to the characters and audiences (for a time). That has existed between the lines, subtly and implicitly. That the audience gives absolutely no thought, because why would they? And if they do, they are abhorred by it - but I’d argue this is the entire point. But not for the reasons you think, not because of the incest - or J0nerys would disgust them.

From the moment he started the series, GRRM has employed incest as a major motif that impacts both the narrative and the characters - the causes the war, that contributes to T@rgaryen values, legacy etc, that propels aspects of narcissism and vitriol for characters like Cersei. It’s really really interesting stuff, as uncomfortable as it is - there are no other works that explore it so messily and beautifully with such nuance.

I believe people seriously underestimate GRRM’s use of omission and subtext. Seriously, just because something is not explicitly stated, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Unfortunately fans have such a surface level reading of the text, that they are unable to peel back the layers and get to its core. They don’t consider literary influences, or art, or the Romantic movement or anything. They claim they want a complex story that is subversive, yet they cheer for the three-headed dragon theory and all the most predictable plot points that have been absolutely done to death. But then they turn up their noses at anything that goes against the grain, or insinuates otherwise.

R + L = J is a great example of existence within the subtext, yet nobody denies that it is there. No one is called crazy or delusional for it. Ned never thinks of Jon’s true parentage despite harbouring that secret for years, because it is buried deep in his subconscious.

And much to the audience’s surprise (and dismay I'm sure) that is how Jon and Sansa will manifest. This is the human heart in conflict with Jon and Sansa, but not just them - the readers as well. It’s pointing to us, asking us how we’ll possibly handle it. We’re meant to feel this conflict of emotions - anguish and torment and yet hope for something ineffable - just like the characters.

To be able to evoke that as a writer is one of the most impressive feats I can think of - and for the majority of it to exist at this point, in a subconscious limbo? How utterly complex and painful and raw and intelligent but oh so very brilliant. Perhaps one of the most compelling things to come out of this entire series, if only the general audience was open to such discussions. But alas, we must contend with the community we have, and hope for a dream of spring to come upon us.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #meta #anti asoiaf fandom #jonsa meta #long post #lord byron #incest motif #original outline #literary subversion #sansa stark #jon snow

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shaunashipman · 6 months ago

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If there’s one thing I’m annoyed about is people calling Buck/Tommy shippers fetishizers because sure there’s probably some people being weird about it. But pot calling kettle buck and Eddie can’t breath near each other without someone saying it means something. Which is such a shame because I adore their dynamic, they’re so good for each other even with it being purely platonic. People also forget you can love someone platonically, it doesn’t have to be romantic.

Like yes most of what people are talking about are the kisses because they came with the main plot points of Buck’s story this season, Buck realizing hes Bi, kiss, Buck coming out to his friends and family, kiss. And I’m craving to see more of their dynamic on screen. I want to see them just existing in the space around each other showing how they’re just comfortable being in each others presence. I want the soft and quiet moments where they’re wordlessly comforting each other. Stuff like that.

And I’m tired of people saying “they’ve only been on two dates, it’s not that deep. It’s no where near as deep as Buck and Eddie’s relationship”. Well newsflash Eddie’s not a love interest, yes they have a deep connection but as of now it’s purely platonic.

I just want to enjoy this, Buck finally being happy for once and comfortable with his relationship. I want to see it grow into a well fleshed out romance, I want to see their dynamic grow and change and get stronger. Things take time and they don’t have that this season. And I’m tired of people being intentional ignorant to facts like that.

pretty much everything they say just makes me laugh, except the calling me a fetishist, which makes me go from 0 to enraged like that, especially coming from what is essentially children (many of whom I doubt are actually queer themselves, based on the harmful storylines they want to happen), who in the same breath say eddie pouring champagne into buck's mouth is basically a cumshot

we are allowed to speculate on both pg and explicit scenes for them, if that's a problem, maybe the show is too mature for these ppl. may I suggest blue's clues?

they're so stuck in fanfic world, where everything is a slowburn, all-consuming epic love, that they can't comprehend that ppl can just? date? and get to know each other? you don't have to already be in love to go out with someone, you can just fancy them. in fact, that's how most of the world works. really worried for their ideas of relationships

anyway, considering these ppl try and claim that buck looked "confused" by bobby's approval, ignoring the clear smile on his face, I don't even think we're watching the same show. I am looking forward to their relationship growing, and all the good and bad that comes with it

#cleo gets mail #anonymous #911 #911 critical #bucktommy #anti buddie

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lover-of-mine · 5 months ago

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https://www.tumblr.com/lemotmo/755374254590246912/can-we-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-how-todays-bts

This is spot on. The BT fandom has worked so hard to completely try and twist the narrative 9-1-1 has put forward. I’m not surprised Oliver is blocking people and not promoting the ship because there isn’t anything worth promoting and if I were him or a showrunner I would also be annoyed that a small amount of fans are trying to hijack a storyline. BT fans act like the general audience loves Tommy when I genuinely think the general audience just does not care one way or another about Tommy. Because the show has not given any reason to care about him. The only people that care so strongly (either liking or disliking him) are fandom people online who are stuck in discourse. That is not the majority of viewers. We’re going into season 8 - we don’t have a guarantee of how many seasons are left. Now that they’ve moved networks and we’re given the green light they’re going to focus on the storyline that wraps up their main characters arcs in the most satisfying way (which based on everything we’ve seen in this show is Buddie) not trying to start from scratch for both Buck and Eddie with new relationships. And if they DID want to pair Buck and Eddie with other people they would’ve actually tried to develop Buck and Tommy in season 7 and they very purposefully didn’t.

clickable link for the post because it's very spot on

The thing with the cameos is that it turned a narrative that was supposed to be about Buck and turned it into a narrative about Buck and Tommy. There is nothing in canon that backs up the idea that Tommy is anything other than just some guy. The show didn't restart at season 7 and if they wanted to make Buck and Tommy something with a fighting chance, Tommy would've existed in the narrative beyond the coming out plotline. Taylor's storyline was complete with beef with lafd personnel and a canon tragic backstory. If they wanted to make people care about Tommy they would've. They made it with Taylor with 4 episodes. You want me to believe they couldn't do it with Tommy after 6? Lou was putting out headcanon after headcanon and people took that as gospel as if he was reading scripts and had input from writers when Lou said in an interview that they didn't even tell him what label Tommy was supposed to have when they filmed the kiss. The show created a very clear narrative that shows that the relationship is not that serious. And if we are taking word of god as canon, Tim said that it's a "level entry relationship" and used the word "first fling" multiple times. First implies a second and fling is as unserious as it can get. The actual show is saying something, the creator of the show is saying the same thing. But sure, the actor they are paying and prompting has more say than the actual source material 🙄🙄. This story is about making Buck bi. Nothing else. If they wanted to make this be a Buck finally found his person, they would've developed Tommy into someone who's at least a little bit likeable, not continuously make him look worse every time he opens his mouth. If Oliver really is frustrated with this and blocking people because people hijacked the storyline he's telling, he has every right to be. He wanted to tell a nice story about Buck being bi and now he's caught having to dodge people who want him to walk up to the creators and say they have to marry Buck and Tommy by 802 or else he walks, when he clearly just wanted it to be about Buck's identity. Somehow Buck got pushed to the background of his own story by this very loud group of people while being aided by an actor who's creating a pr nightmare. The story is about Buck exploring bisexuality not about Buck falling in love with Tommy and it's painfully clear. The fact that people can't see it because someone paid a dude 100 and something dollars to say they are "thriving" is madness and shows the lack of basic media literacy.

#911 #i really need a tag for asks #anon 😌#anti bucktommy #spy network

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latteenightss · 15 days ago

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Hii! Just another rant about obx. I wanna share my predictions about season 5 and what I think they’re gonna do

Chase Stokes (John B) mentioned that season 5 will be their best one, which it could be but I think for a lot of viewers just the fact that JJ won’t be there at all might ruin the season if yk what I mean.

And now to my predictions

1. I think season 5 will be Kiara’s season, with the way season 4 ended it’s obvious she’s gonna lash out and go through a lot. She’s gonna need to deal with grief and her revenge era might be a bit brutal 😊

Also maybe she will be somehow related to the treasure? Or just connected slightly. Like season 1 we had John B, season 2 it was Pope. Season 3 now- idk I guess Sarah but Kie also had a bigger role, like when that dude kidnapped her and then she got sent off to that camp but that’s it, then her plot line was about Jiara, and season 4 was obv JJ.

And since we’re talking about JJ, y’all.. ik it’s hard but he’s not coming back 😭 obx is not supernatural, a wish won’t bring him back to life. Like I don’t think JJ will crawl out of sand.

I generally love the idea of Kie finally having her main character moments and just making her more important to the story.

2. We will get Riara. And I definitely don’t mean that in a romantic way because that’s not happening! Madison (the actress of Kie) hates Riara 😭 but I think we will see them as duo and just get more of those tension scenes that we got so far. I feel like that might be a way the writers will try to “replace” Jiara. Jiara was a huge ad for the show and lately so has been Riara.

I feel like almost eveyone loves the tension between those two and the writers know that. Also Rafe breaking up with Sofia- yea they’re definitely building up to some sort of storyline with Kiara and Rafe. The amount of people obsessed with Riara is insane and obv they have to give us something so..

Riara s5 is pretty much guaranteed.

3. I wanna talk about Sarah and John B- obviously a huge plot line will be their child. I don’t know if the child will be born at the end or during season 5. How I see it, I’m leaning more toward the end but we’ll see.

There’s not much else that can really happen with them. John b will also be in a revenge era since his best friend was killed and Sarah will definitely get closer with Rafe, that hug they shared was so cute and needed but otherwise I really don’t know! I doubt they’ll kill them off. I was thinking that the way John B narrates obx maybe that’s him in the future telling his child about their story? That would make sense honestly.

4. Pope and Cleo umm so. I honestly am not as interested in their story line and it’s interesting because I have no idea what they will do with them.

I think Pope might be kind of more cold in season 5- as we know he shot a person right in the head, and he was so scared about that. Also he lost JJ- his best friend and they want to send him to the military. Dude is not doing the best! 💀

Cleo.. I don’t know she’s such a complicated character, she went through a lot in her life but I doubt they’ll really expand her character in season 5.

5. Rafe!!!! His character development this season was insane. In my opinion he should stick with the pogues but I wouldn’t be surprised if he somehow betrayed them. That’s Rafe- he’s not a good person but I wouldn’t say he’s necessarily bad..

Like I already said in obx 5 there will be Rafe and Kie duo, and more of Sarah and Rafe for sure. But maybe he will connect with the other pogues too.

I just don’t want the development to be thrown away, I hope they make him stick with the pogues.

6. And now finally the ending/possible deaths.

The characters who in my opinions are most in danger are: Kiara and Rafe

Especially Kiara.. here’s the thing, since JJ is dead and she already went through the whole group 😭 what can her ending actually be? Like ok she could just end up alone with her friends, her family but in my opinion her death would make sense. She would be with JJ and I think in general it is a good end for her.

Rafe like i mentioned is a complicated character, it would be so easy for the writers to just kill him off at the end. But I would be honestly so mad!!! Like no JJ and no Rafe 😭. Yeah I don’t want them to do that but at the same time, I think there’s definitely a possibility.

Sarah and John B definitely safe in my opinion.

Cleo and Pope- now I don’t know, I think they’re safe. Maybe Cleo.. but still I don’t think so.

Groff- definitely done for! ❤️ I hope Kiara tortures him to death 🥰

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buddiebeginz · 7 months ago

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Guys don’t let spoilers for new eps rattle you. We’re closer to Buddie now than we have ever been. Just have to let the story play out.

Remember these things:

They’re not really pushing B/T in the press they’re doing for the show. Like sure they’ve talked about them but go read all the articles and watch the interviews T*mmy is being talked about more as a mentor figure for Buck and not a long term love interest.

The show has very deliberately connected Buck’s bi awakening including B/T to Eddie and compared T*mmy to Eddie.

They’ve literally with dialogue pointed out Buck wanted Eddie’s attention twice (once when Buck was talking to Maddie after the game and once when T*mmy says “my attention” a clear indication he knew Buck wanted Eddie’s attention).

They’ve full on paralleled B/T scenes and Buddie scenes (call Eddie/call T*mmy)

Buck was talking about how great Eddie is moments before T*mmy kissed him.

Eddie was the character they chose to have crash Buck’s first date with a guy. They chose to have it be where Eddie announces that Marisol is moving in and after the date was over and ended badly the main thing Buck focused on wasn’t T*mmy it was the fact he lied to Eddie.

They’ve made it a point to say in interviews that Buck isn’t going to be having any more one on one coming out scenes this season. Yet they had both of Buck’s important coming out scenes involve Eddie. Buck ends up coming out to Maddie because he’s talking about the date and how he’s upset he lied to Eddie. They also had some very deliberate dialogue when Maddie said “I just think maybe you’re not sure of your own feelings yet. And if there’s something you need to tell Eddie you will. In your own time.”

They devoted a whole intense scene to Buck coming out to Eddie including with a hug.

They keep promoting Buddie in interviews and the press and almost all of the promo videos and pics this season have included them. They’ve also had Ryan and Oliver front and center during the press early on and both seem excited about Buddie’s storyline together this season.

They’ve even made Maddie and Chim’s wedding about Buddie to a large degree. All the promos for it are 98% Buddie. They’re also wearing a couples costume, partying with drag queens, and being more physically close than we’ve ever seen them be. Remember this is also happening at an event we saw Buck invite T*mmy to and we know Eddie has a gf who should presumably be his +1.

Marisol has barely been in this season. We don’t really know her as a person or even her last name. We don’t even know how a relationship between her and Eddie functions because we’ve barely seen them together. The one ep Marisol was heavily featured in the show treated her more like a punchline than a fully fleshed out character and certainly not like a long term love interest to a main character.

They’ve already had Eddie talking about how he’s a nester this season. But they also had a very emotional scene where Chris talks about Shannon and how everyone leaves. Eddie having Marisol move in with him so quick (even if she did move back out) just proves he’s repeating old patterns. He’s looking to replace Shannon in his life and for Chris. Instead of looking at what he has and what he wants.

Also remember that Ryan was included with all the other cast members who play queer characters on that episode of Family Feud that’s likely to air during pride month.

I know a lot of people are nervous about what the show is going to do with Buddie but remember there is more incentive for them to make Buddie canon now than ever before. They’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback especially in the press from Buck’s bi storyline. Tim and Ryan and Oliver and the rest know how much people want to see Buddie happen and how much attention they will garner the show when it does. They’re in the perfect position to finally move these characters in that direction and I think they are slowly and steadily. We just have to be patient. We’re likely to have parts of the story suck as we get closer to Buddie but it will be worth it in the end.

#911 buddie #buddie #911!#911 spoilers

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breathe-2am · 8 months ago

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hey idk how to tell u this but the big cliffhanger in s1 isn’t the crew being separated it’s stede going out to find ed when ed has fallen so deep into heartbreak and self-loathing that he’s destroyed stede’s ship and split up their crew. the cliffhanger is about “how will ed and stede fix their relationship after stede broke ed’s heart and ed went off the deep end?”

bc what’s going on with the crew is not the main storyline. the main storyline is the romance between ed and stede, djenks has said this many times. the main plotline is the development of ed and stede’s relationship. the show didn’t “shove most of the characters into 1 minute scenes between much longer gentlebeard arcs” in 2.04, the crew was just part of the B plot that episode, which is to be expected because they are all side characters who are always in B or C plots if they’re not part of the plot with the main characters (ed and stede). the main A plot of 2.04 is ed and stede making up now that they’ve finally been reunited, and the show develops this storyline in a rewrite/adaptation/homage to the play who’s afraid of virginia woolfe.

it’s fine if u don’t like gentlebeard or if your main enjoyment from the show is izzy/the crew, but if that’s the case for you then unfortunately you’re always have a harder time enjoying ofmd bc the writing in the show is always going to prioritize gentlebeard over the other characters. the crew reuniting was always going to be much less important than ed and stede reuniting and making up. that’s what david jenkins meant when he said “the show is the relationship.”

Heyo! I see my meme has breached the side of ofmd tumblr I usually interact with, which is really cool! Thanks for stopping by haha

I think your response is so emblematic of the shift the show went thru from season 1 to season 2- namely, that season 1 was an ensemble show and season 2 was not. Stede was the main character, yes, and he got more backstory and focus than a lot of the crew, but the story of the show in s1 was that it was a bunch of people with conflicting personalities shoved onto a boat together. Stede’s the center, but every other character gets focus as well. This show, by djenks own admission, was not originally intended to be a rom-com romance between stede and ed. He said that he didn’t commit to actually have them be together until filming season 1 episode 6- more than halfway thru the story of the first season, and that it was mainly due to rhys and taika’s acting that made him change it from an unrequited love to a relationship. So while the story is a lot about gentlebeard, saying that every other character is secondary to them and their romance isnt true.

I think a great example to bring up would be season 1 episode 7, the episode that solidifies (via lucius) that yes, this is happening. This is a very relationship heavy episode, but crucially gb isn’t the only focus.

Here's a breakdown: we start w a 1:00 gb scene, then roach comes in asking about the oranges, which leads to a 2:00 scene w the whole crew that sets up the episodes plot (swede has scurvy, we need to get more oranges). Jim protests going to st augustine, which is followed by a 1:00 scene between jim and olu, including a jim flashback. Stede and lucius return with the treasure map, there’s 1:30 more of the whole crew, then we go into the captains cabin for 1:00 of stede, ed, and lucius. 6 minutes into the ep flashes to the crew on land, a 0:50 conversation between jim and olu, then 2:00 of the whole crew, ending then nana invites them all to eat some cake at 8:15. We then go to stede, lucius, and ed in the marketplace until the 9 minute mark (abt 0:45), then back to the church where olu and jim talk to nana for 1:15, including more jim flashbacks. Back to the adventure w stede ed and lucius, which is 2 scenes back to back, totally about 3:00 (the “oh my god this is happening” scene). Then back to the church for jim olu and nana, a 1:00 jim flashback inside a 3:00 scene. Then back to the captains and lucius for 1:30, then to jim and olu, more jim flashback, then the a and b plots converge at the 2:30 mark when jim sees stede digging up their tree. Stede, ed, and lucius exit the scene after 1:30, jim and olu have a conversation for another 1:00. We see the crew leaving, then olu and nana talk, which all takes 2:00. Back on the boat, ed and stede become co-captains in a 0:45 scene, then the final 1:30 of the ep is izzy at jackie’s with 1:30 credits

Gentlebeard: 9:00, whole crew: 5:30, Jim and Olu: 11:35, Izzy: 1:30, credits: 1:30

I would say that s1e7 is the most overtly gb episode before the kiss in s1e9. But as you can see, it’s not just gb. There’s a lot of focus on jim, who gets multiple filmed flashbacks, there’s scenes w jim, olu, and nana, there’s scenes of the whole crew together, stede and ed are really only oncscreen together for abt 9 minutes- not even 1 third of the episode. And this is the ep that says directly to the audience “yes, they have a romance building”. I’m not trying to say w this that every member of the crew needs to b given equal screentime, bc that didn’t happen here obv, but everyone is doing something, and the plot is moving forward propelled by more than just the gb relationship.

Now this is very much changed in season 2.

S2e4 starts with 0:20 of stede waking ed up, then 0:45 of stede and the crew, 0:30 of ed and buttons, izzy’s w the unicorn for 1:00. The crew kick ed off the boat in a 1:15 scene. Now at the 2:25 mark we get to the plots splitting. Ed has a 1:15 scene on land, 0:45 is spent talking to a bunny. Stede and buttons find anne and mary’s antique store after 0:45 of walking. The scene in the antique porch is 2:15. Back to the revenge where there’s a 1:00 scene where wee john, roach, and pete talk about how the kraken crew, lucius, and izzy are different, and the kraken crew thinks they’re plotting to kill them. Already we go back to anne and mary’s where theres various conversations for 3:00. We go back to the revenge for a 0:45 scene where the revenge crew scare the kraken crew and lucius by trying to surprise them. Back to land, where anne and stede and mary and ed talk for 2:00. Back to the revenge for a 1:45 scene w the crews, izzy enters at the 1:00 mark and then crawls away. Well that’s that, we go back to the dinner on land for 1:00, then ed storms out and he and stede have a conversation on the couch for 2:15. Anne and mary reenter, followed by a 3:00 argument that ends with anne burning down the house and they don’t kiss for some reason. We have a 0:20 scene of the crew preparing the unicorn leg, izzy is in his room and received the leg in a 0:40 scene, and well it’s been a whole minute on the revenge, time to go back to ed and stede for 1:00, ed and buttons talk end when buttons turns into a seagull after 1:30. Ed and stede talk for 0:30, and then we end w izzy the new unicorn for 0:45. Credits are again 1:30.

Gentlebeard: 19:50, whole crew: 5:05, Izzy: 3:10, credits: 1:30

To illustrate my point, i made some graphs

You don’t even have to think very hard to see the change in distribution of screentime season 1 vs season 2. And i’d argue that this is absolutely to the show’s detriment, because that ensemble cast is given way less time to shine, grow, or even speak. Notice how for the second chart there isn’t a jim and olu section? Yea that’s cause Jim has 10 lines this whole episode, and Olu has 5. Two characters, whose relationship, backstory, and plot takes up more screentime than gentlebeard’s in season 1, have a combined 15 lines between them, only 4 of which are longer than 1 sentence- 2 for jim, 2 for olu, and those lines are two sentences long. god bless us every one.

I get that there’s a large subset of the ofmd fandom that only cares abt ed and stede. I get that that’s how u find enjoyment in the show, and u know what? All the power to u. I’m not saying stop liking the show, stop liking gentlebeard, stop caring abt these characters. I don’t like gentlebeard, but i used to, and i remember really really loving ed and stede and their relationship in season 1. That changed in season 2 because of ed’s abusive actions and stede pivoting from being an independent character to just basically following whatever ed says (but that’s a story for another day).

But let’s be honest with each other, and with ourselves: season 1 was an ensemble show. Season 2 narrowed its focus to gentlebeard, while also making it (for some people) harder to like. That’s why a lot of people (myself included) didn’t like season 2 as much as season 1.

Also, just to focus back in on the original issue, the meme was not about gentlebeard. It was about Anne and Mary. And there is literally no way you can convince me that they were used as well as they could have been, or that they were implemented into the story in a smart, necessary, or even respectful way.

Because i'm a nice person, i made a brand new updated meme just for u, anon!

:-)

#ofmd #our flag means death #ofmd critical #ofmd s2 #ofmd season 2 #ofmd fandom #ofmd meta #asks #thank u for giving me the floor to explain my dumb meme in detail!#i love being right #this is your captain speaking

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annes-andromeda · 6 months ago

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Season 2 of HOTD is almost here and oml, every single goddamn thing I’ve seen regarding not just Team Green, but the plot in general, sounds awful.

We got:

Alicent still trying to make peace with Rha*nyra despite the latter not giving two flying fucks about her and Rha*nyra allowing B&C to happen and not punishing Da*mon. And don’t even get me started on the rumors of that supposed peace treaty in the finale🙄

Aemond calling his own mother a fool and addressing her by her FIRST NAME. It was literally established that these two have a strong bond but suddenly it’s thrown down the drain. Granted we green fans expected Aemond and Alicent to drift apart after L*ke’s death but not like this bro. Book!Aemond was cruel and awful, but he would never disrespect his mother like that. I honestly pray we get a scene of Criston defending her.

Everything about Helaena. Just. Everything. Her caught in the made-up King’s Landing riot with Alicent that didn’t happen in the book despite the fact that both her and her mother were stated as being beloved by the people. Supposedly rumors of Helaena having a nightmare about Da*mon having s*x with her (ugh just let it be Aegon pls I’m not a shipper but at least it would make sense). And apparently there may even be another riot during Jaehaerys’s funeral. Which again, DID NOT FUCKING HAPPEN.

Rha*nyra wielding a goddamn sword and still being portrayed as Mother Mary herself and being so dutiful and amazing and good🙄. Like, book!Rha*nyra was an awful person, but at least she was entertaining and had an actual personality.

Rumors of Rhaena apparently claiming a dragon that may be Sheepstealer, which means they might give Nettles’s storyline to Rhaena which I hate. Granted it’s just a rumor, but I would actually scream if they erased not just Nettles, but Morning as well.

I’m pretty sure there’s more but those are the main ones I can think of rn

Everything about the new season sounds so bad and I’m honestly thinking of not watching it at this point. Season 1 was bad enough with the villainizing of Team Green and the whitewashing of Team Black, but now they’re just going all out and continuing to climb the ladder of absurdity.

At this point I just feel bad for both Teams tbh. There’s no nuisance, no balanced focus on both sides, no effort to make both sides enjoyable. It’s very obvious that HBO has already chosen a side, and yet they’re still pushing the whole choosing teams agenda.

Only things that look promising are the upgraded wigs and costumes and Da*myra in their breakup era.

#house of the dragon #game of thrones #pro team green #anti team black #anti daemon targaryen #anti rhaenyra targaryen #team green deserved so much better #team green #anti daemyra #hotd critical

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talktonytome · 6 months ago

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Don't you guys wish the relationship was more fleshed out? I don't even like Tommy, I'm indifferent to him, and I still wish that Buck's first queer relationship actually was handled well, tenderly and gently and with respect instead of getting so little screen time that the bits and pieces of Tommy we know are from LFJ's cameos or interviews. Yes, I want Buddie canon, but more than anything I want Buck's bisexuality and his first relationship with a man to be given more care than it currently is! But so many people who only started watching the show because Buck kissed a man (aka 99% of people who started watching post-7x04) seem to only care that, well, Buck kissed a man, and don't care for the storyline to be treated well so long as the conventionally attractive cis white guy is kissing another conventionally attractive cis white guy.

“I don’t even like Tommy.”

“I want Buddie canon”

I’m already weary of your intentions with this ask, but I’m gonna answer because you came to my inbox about it. With all due respect, do you know how most people meet in real life? Strangers meet, if they vibe and hit it off, they hang out more and they get to know each other. I’m sorry Tommy hasn’t had 7 years of being on the show, but he’s not the main cast and this season was short. Their relationship is new. The fact that we even got the Buck and Tommy we got is great and in those little moments, we got to see the tenderness and gentleness- being so blinded by shipping goggles and hate for Tommy that certain people refuse to see it is a whole other thing.

And I think Buck’s queer relationship has been handled well, actually!! That’s WHY people like them- it’s so joyful and genuine and refreshing.

And it’s frankly insulting to say people only want two conventionally attractive white guys kissing. I love the characters, I love Buck and I, along with many others, are capable of digesting his story that is beautiful by the way- and both Oliver and Lou have done a great job with the scenes they did get. They have chemistry, the characters have chemistry and potential, and if you don’t see that, then ok, cool but don’t act like Buck isn’t being treated right or isn’t the happiest he’s ever been in a relationship. There is a difference between canon and what is depicted onscreen and fanon tropes.

It’s funny, because I’ve seen so many amazing-in depth posts about Buck and Tommy as separate people and their character growth and almost all buddie posts are about Buck in relation to Eddie. They’re interesting characters and no, we don’t just care about two white guys kissing. Maybe ask yourself why YOU assume that.

Lastly, I’m not going to try to convince you or anyone of anything. If you don’t like tommy and you ship buddie, then just scroll away, don’t interact with things you don’t like 🤷🏻‍♀️ it’s what I do. scroll away, block, filter tags. because if you’re already decided, why would I waste my time doing something that doesn’t make me happy?

Anon, I really hope you have a great rest of your day and remember to have fun and a little joy! And if bucktommy isn’t for you, find blogs and content that align with your interests <3

#whew!#ask #anon #evan buckley #bucktommy #discourse ?#I

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snitchcrimsonwrites · 6 months ago

Text

Maybe pt.9

Pairing: Norm MacLean X Female Reader or OC if you squint

Former friends to a relationship?

Life is pretty easy in Vault 33 until you're trying to rekindle a former friendship and Raiders attack. Now, our main characters are trying to navigate newfound feelings, all while undercovering the mysteries of Vault 33. Stay tuned. Follows the main storyline of season 1; some events may be reordered for plot.

The council calls another general assembly to democratically decide how to proceed with the prisoners in the reading room. As emotions erupt, things get tense and a little passionate, leaving you both to decide what comes next.

Part 1 Here Part 6 Here Part 12 Here

Part 2 Here Part 7 Here

Part 3 Here Part 8 Here

Part 4 Here Part 10 Here

Part 5 Here Part 11 Here

Norm was one of the last to arrive at the general meeting. As he entered the Vault atrium, he spotted you with a seat saved for him and headed over, grateful for the familiar face. Woody and Reg were already at the podium, delivering initial remarks as he hustled to his seat. Based on how his personal meeting with the Vault council went yesterday, he already had a decent prediction of how this meeting would go.

Woody continued to address the members of Vault 33 as Norm took the seat next to you. “We can judge people and society by how they treat their enemy. And here we are with sixteen highly violent individuals incarcerated in our temporarily repurposed reading room. It’s an ethical dilemma like nothing we’ve dealt with before.”

Reg chimed in, turning the microphone towards his side of the podium. “Personally, I’d say it’s more of an ethical opportunity to demonstrate to the surface dwellers and to each other what we mean when we say we’re going to build a better world.”

Woody nodded. “Thanks, Reg. That is a positive spin to put on it.”

Reg’s voice grew firm. “It’s not a positive spin to me. It’s the goshdarn truth!”

“Okay, well, uh, the fact remains we need to decide what to do with these prisoners. And that is a decision we need to make as a collective,” Woody continued.

“In a manner befitting our shared values,” Reg added.

The space erupted in clapping and cheers.

Betty stepped forward, calling for order. “I think this conversation would benefit from some actual ideas.” At least someone was interested in addressing the problem, not just pandering for support.

You raised your hand. “Hi, I was just curious if we’ve done anything to establish why the raiders were down here in the first place? I mean, they seemed to be here for a reason, and what if they come back? Shouldn’t that be under consideration as well?”

Reg nodded, affirming your comment. “Excellent point and question. We’ve spent numerous hours and resources trying to connect with these raiders for those exact reasons. For example, the young man Woody interrogated this morning left an impression on me.”

Woody interjected to uncomfortably clarify, “That would be the gentleman who showed me his butthole.”

“Yes,” Reg continued, undeterred, “but what I took from that is a desire to communicate. To reach out across the cultural divide. That’s a spark we can work with to create a great citizen. Given our recently dwindled numbers, the most ethical solution would be to rehabilitate the prisoners and then integrate them into our vault society.” He’s actually serious.

“To be clear, this is not a process that will happen overnight,” Woody added. “Based on what I saw this morning, it may take years.”

Reg nodded in agreement, trying to get his two cents in, but was cut off as Woody continued. “But there’s nothing we can’t do when we set our minds to it!”

The Vault dwellers in the crowd responded with a resounding “Yes!” They were all seemingly on board and ready to take on the task at hand, eager to dazzle these Raiders with the formal education process. This feels surreal.

“I can teach the raiders Shakespeare, and when they’re ready, Marlowe.”

Marianne retorted, “Now, I don’t want to be insensitive, but I think Shakespeare might be too advanced for these people. I would like to start with a moral framework. Kant, Mill, and so on.”

Another voice chimed in, “I’d be happy to teach them introductory calculus.” You had expected that the Vault would engage in rehabilitation with its newly acquired prisoners, but no discussion of the danger or concerns was honestly just negligent. These people have demonstrated how violent and dangerous they are.

Norm scoffed, unable to contain his skepticism. Reg noticed and addressed him. “Is there something you’d like to say, Norm?”

All eyes turned to Norm. He spoke up, doubling down on the rhetoric from your private discussion. “I don’t know. I don’t think it’s our job to help these people. They’re murderers.”

Marianne countered passionately, “They didn’t know any better. And how could they without a formal education?”

Reg pressed on, “Norm, buddy, the hard truth is we can’t just let them go.” Laughing nervously, he added, “They have intimate knowledge of our vault security. So what do you propose we do?”

Norm’s voice was cold. “We can do what they would have done to us.”

The crowd gasped. “Wow, geez Louise, Norm.”

Betty stood, taking control of the situation and backtracking on Norm’s behalf. “Young Norm was just expressing a feeling. I know. I’ve got anger. We all do. But I think you’d agree that murdering these prisoners is not under serious consideration.”

“Hear, hear,” Reg affirmed.

Norm backed down, his defiance softening. “I’m sorry, you’re right. It was not my intention to question your leadership, Overseer,” he finished with a smirk. He knew what he was doing.

Woody and Reg replied in unison, “Thank you.”

______________

You and Norm left the community meeting together, the tension from inside still lingering in the air. As you walked down the dimly lit hallway, you couldn't hold back your frustration any longer.

“You know, I expected them to dismiss my question, but the rest of that display, ugh,” you said, making a gagging noise, “those two were more interested in political plays than actually solving problems.”

Norm nodded, his face grim. “Yeah, I noticed. It’s like I told Lucy at that last meeting. Woody and Reg don’t want to do anything that hurts their chances of filling the gap left by my dad. There will need to be a new Overseer. ”

“I still think the raider point was valid,” you continued, venting your frustration. “The more I sit with it, the more it doesn’t add up. Reg wasn’t wrong when he said they had intensive knowledge of the Vault; that’s clear. But no, let’s focus on grandiose plans to teach them Shakespeare and calculus instead.”

Norm sighed. “No one wants to admit it, but I don’t think we have the luxury of moral constructs anymore. We’re living in a world where the old rules don’t apply anymore,” he finishes, leaving you with the sheer weight of that sentence.

Sensing both of you were tired and frustrated from the meeting, you turned to Norm with a hopeful smile. "Hey, how about we try to lighten the mood a bit?" you suggest. "Would you like to come over for dinner? You still haven’t regaled me with how surprised Chet was that night I stayed over. "

“As fantastic as that sounds, I don’t know if I’d be a good dinner guest tonight. I’ll probably just turn in early if that’s alright with you?”

You felt a twinge of disappointment but quickly masked it with a smile. “Yeah, of course, Norm. I understand.”

“I’ll see you tomorrow, though,” Norm reassured, taking your hand in his. You allowed him to pull you in closer, both of you standing there momentarily, the weight of the day hanging between you.

Then, Norm took a step closer, his gaze locked onto yours. Sensing his boldness, you took advantage of the moment and closed the gap, crashing your lips onto his, desperate for contact. The passion between you ignited instantly, and you responded eagerly, your arms wrapping around his neck. The kiss conveyed all your shared frustrations and unspoken emotions.

When you finally parted, you became acutely aware of how public your display of affection had been. A wave of mild embarrassment washed over you. “Sorry, I kinda got wrapped up in the moment there,” you said softly, your voice tinged with warmth and lingering desire.

“I didn’t hate it,” he replied, his eyes still locked onto yours, filled with the same longing and affection. “I’ll see you tomorrow, (Y/N).”

“Night, Norm.” You watched as he walked away, and a mix of contentment and concern settled in your chest.

__________________

Norm didn’t end up going home like he told you. Instead, he wandered aimlessly around the vault, his thoughts a tangled mess. Eventually, he found himself on one of the balconies overlooking the main atrium. The soft hum of the vault's machinery and the distant murmur of conversations below provided a comforting background noise.

He opened his Pip-Boy and stared at a recent photo of his father, his heart aching. The absence of his father and sister was becoming a heavy burden, a void that he couldn’t ignore. You were able to fill a small part of that hole inside him, but the longing to know if they were safe gnawed at him constantly. Norm wondered if Lucy had managed to hunt down any minuscule clue that could help her track him down. He thought about her relentless determination and felt a pang of guilt. Did she miss him too? Was she struggling as much as he was? He couldn’t help but question his own worth. Did Lucy need his help? And even if she did, would he actually be of any help if he left the Vault?

The questions swirled in his mind as he gazed out over the atrium. The vault was a place of safety, but it also felt like a prison, keeping him from those he loved. The weight of his worries pressed down on him, making the darkness of the night feel even more oppressive.

He closed his eyes for a moment, letting the sounds of the vault wash over him. In the silence, he heard footsteps approaching. Rounding the corner was Betty Pearson, two plates of pie in hand.

“There you are. I thought you might be up here.” Norm couldn’t help feeling it was an odd coincidence that he’d run into the former Overseer two nights in a row. “Made pie if you’d like a piece,” she said, already offering him the second plate.

He took the plate, eyeing her cautiously. He had already deduced why she was there. “Thanks.”

Betty settled beside him, a small smile on her face. “I was there the first time you tried rhubarb pie and ice cream. You sure did like pie that day.”

Norm sighed. “You came to talk to me about what I said at the assembly.”

“And why do you think that is?”

“It upset people. You don’t like when people get upset.”

“But you do?” Betty sighed and shook her head. “You’re not the only one who feels the absence of your father. People here are hurting. Disoriented. And with your sister gone, you’re the last standing MacLean. Your voice carries more weight than you might realize.”

Norm stared down at the pie, his appetite gone. “I hid. During the raid, I ran. I got in a storage space, left my sister and my best friend to the raiders, and hid.”

“Does that make you angry?”

“Why does it matter?”

“Regular boys can get angry, and they’ll just pee on the wall. When clever boys like you are angry… Hmmm. You’re lucky not to have seen where that can lead. Just tread lightly,” Betty cautioned. “That’s all I ask.”

She stood up, leaving him with his thoughts and the pie.

________________

After Norm's conversation with Betty, he decided he wasn’t waiting any longer. Spurred by the realization that days weren’t always guaranteed in the Vault, he didn't want another day to go by without embracing his true feelings for you. With a newfound sense of urgency, he headed down the Vault corridor and knocked on the door to your living quarters.

You answered, surprised but happy to see him. "Norm, what are you—"

He cut you off by wrapping you in his arms and pulling you into a strong, passionate kiss.

Norm kissed you deeply, pushing you back into the main living space as you hit the button for the door sealing you both inside. His hands roamed your back as he guided you further inside, the kiss growing more intense with each passing second. You felt the urgency and desire in his touch, and it mirrored your own.

As you moved together, your surroundings blurred. Norm's hands found the small of your back, pulling you even closer while your fingers tangled in his hair. You could feel the heat between you rising, the connection deepening with every touch, every kiss.

He gently maneuvered you towards the couch, never breaking the kiss. The world outside ceased to exist, replaced by the overwhelming need to be closer, to express everything you both had held back for so long. Norm's lips moved to your neck, and you sighed, your body responding to his every touch. The top half of your Vault suit restricted his advances and became his next target. With a determined yet tender touch, Norm moved his hands around you to unzip the remaining fabric standing between him and your body, spurred on by your urging. However, in the urgency of the moment, he accidentally bumped into an injured section of your arm.

You let out a small yelp of pain, instinctively grabbing the affected area with your opposing hand. Both of you recoiled, the sudden reminder of your fragility hitting harder than either of you expected.

“I’m so sorry,” Norm stammered, his eyes wide with concern and guilt as he scooted back.

“It’s okay,” you said, wincing slightly but trying to reassure him. “I just wasn’t ready for that.”

His face contorted with anguish, the reality of your injuries stark against the backdrop of his longing. He reached out as if to help but then hesitated, unsure of himself, unsure of everything. “I’m sorry, this was a mistake. I need to–” Norm’s voice trembled, his eyes darting away from your injuries peeking out from your Vault suit.

“Norm,” you said firmly, stepping forward to close the gap between you, “is that what you really want? Cause I don’t buy it, really ask yourself.”

Norm shook his head, his hands balling into fists at his sides. “You don’t understand. I hurt you. I don’t deserve–”

“You don’t get to decide what either of us deserve,” you interrupted, placing a hand gently on his arm. “That’s for us to figure out together, if we want to. Running away isn’t going to make it better for either of us.”

He looked down at your hand, the touch grounding him, pulling him out of the whirlpool of his thoughts. His breath hitched, “I can’t–” he started, but his voice cracked.

“Yes, you can. You didn’t do this to me and I don’t blame you for any of it. Honestly, if you didn’t leave taking those raiders with you we both would have died in that corridor. Deep down you know that kept us alive, and you might feel guilty about that, but it’s true,” you said, slidding even closer, so close that you could feel the heat of his body, his breath mingling with yours. Norm’s defenses crumbled, he let out a shuddering breath, his eyes filling with tears he’d held back for too long.

“I don’t know how to fix this,” he whispered, his voice barely audible.

“You don’t have to know right now,” you replied, your own voice trembling with emotion.

#fallout tv series #norm maclean #norm maclean x oc #norm maclean x reader #fallout series #fallout #fallout amazon

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