#there are so many great interpretations of him !!!!

[dootznbootz]

I don’t have a link but I saw a post along the lines of “EPIC fans trying to gaslight themselves into thinking Odysseus wouldn’t cheat (he does in the books)” and I nearly had a conniption.

Some people WERE arguing he was assaulted, but other people were saying it depends on the interpretation and saying he has a child with Circe and that he stays on the island with her for a year. I also saw someone say he was just lying about being assaulted on another post about it.

The Odyssey/EPIC fandom is so exhausting I’ve thought about blocking everything sometimes ngl. It’s so hard to filter out posts like that. But there’s so much amazing art and content about it I don’t want to stop seeing it.

No, like that's the struggle of it.

I Love Epic and I technically got into the Odyssey BECAUSE of Epic. But I'm a hardcore Odyssey girly. I adore it so much. I've read 8 translations at this point because I love it so much and it's fun for me! And Epic is in no way a replacement for the Odyssey (Jay even says that it's not! he's simply inspired by the Odyssey) and it feels like high quality fanfiction of the Odyssey (FUN! JOYOUS WHIMSY! I still like it! :3 ).

But holy shit, like, both Epic AND Tagamemnon fans can be so fucking exhausting. (I am a fan of both. I can say this.)

(Obviously I'm not talking about everyone. <3 I've made many friends and have met lovely people in both fandoms.)

Like while yes, Epic!Odysseus isn't coerced/raped by either of the goddesses, that's simply because of the fact that Jay simply felt like he wasn't well equipped to handle such dark topics to that extent. And I honestly respect him for that! He knows his limits with the story he wanted to tell and that's good! And in general I think he did a fantastic job handling the aspects of it he did touch on (Coercion with Circe's threatening in "There Are Other Ways" is done well imo.)

(ngl, I kind of take back what I said about "Not Sorry for Loving You". I think a lot of my reaction was initially from my fear of how fandom would react. But I've been delightfully surprised seeing how (for the most part) Epic Fandom has really come through to show the "fucked up-ness" of that song)

THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT ODYSSEUS IN THE ODYSSEY IS A SHITTIER HUSBAND BECAUSE HE, IN THE ANCIENT TEXT, CANNOT SAY NO TO A GODDESS.

Greek Mythology isn't like Percy Jackson where 12 year old Percy beat Ares. (I was a PJO KID TOO!) It's not "Odysseus didn't try hard enough" fucking victim blaming btw because HE LITERALLY CANNOT REFUSE OR THEN HE'LL (AND HIS FRIENDS IN THE CASE OF CIRCE) WOULD DIE!!!

Like I wrote a whole ass essay on Circe's Situation (I feel so preachy and shitty about having to constantly bring it up but I will as much as I have to to get people to listennnn) and in general, if you can't see what's happening with Calypso, you've got your head up your ass and/or are just looking away because you don't like the actual implications of what's happening. For the main "gripe" I've seen with Calypso with how "He enjoyed her company at first", @lyculuscaelus has a great essay breaking that down.

And before? ODYSSEUS HAS NO LISTED CONCUBINES! And he brings up Penelope often in the Iliad!

And the whole "lying about being assaulted", I'm sorry but if someone is holding the "Men were so sexist that they couldn't possibly care about the women in their lives or have been victims" idea, then why would Odysseus willfully share that he was raped by women? Who, as they say, were viewed beneath him? Why would he lie about something that would put him in such a humiliating light?

Btw, Menelaus (sealy boy!!!) even says that he's being held captive by Calypso with what he learned from Proteus! Menelaus isn't known for telling stories!

I feel bad as like, I used to LOVE going into the tags and finding creators I haven't seen before and cheering them on! Art and Fics and yay! But like... It's sometimes so disheartening going in there and seeing nonsense or bad takes ;~;

Honestly, as much as I DO enjoy Epic, I think that hopefully once the hype dies down a lil, it'll chill out more :') We'll all be okay!

[naetaesarya]

Hi @herizon-verizon, I’d like to respond to several points in your replies and your posts.

For the sake of transparency, I want to put out there that I do like the idea of Jon and Dany interacting and having a (hopefully close, impactful) relationship. Jon is also my favourite character.

I don’t even think a relationship between Jon and Dany has to be romantic, I just want to see Jon and Dany interact and share their views and ideas. They’re probably not going to agree on some things and may have some moral objections to decisions made by the other -- which I think adds to the story between characters. However, I’d argue there are some pretty compelling avenues for these characters to go down together – including that they both are very young rulers who challenge oppressive status quos and convention. Some of my own takes with how Jon’s storyline unfolds are not popular. For instance, I do not think Jon is going to end up as a king for a number of reasons both in-story and conceptually.

At the risk of coming across as a “Joncel”, I’d like to make several arguments to your points and anon’s points.

First, I’m just wondering how Westeros (or any other character apart perhaps those close to Jon) is going to believe Jon really is the secret long-lost son of Rhaegar and Lyanna? Jon has the Stark look, a direwolf, the story of his conception and birth is widely accepted and unquestioned. Ned Stark was known for his honour. What’s more, there is this prejudice against bastards (including against Jon) that say they are deceptive and long to steal the claims of trueborns. A known bastard born super sus pro-wildling Jon Snow is now being claimed as the long-lost, perhaps trueborn progeny of Rhaegar Targaryen? I think there’s going to be some trouble – more if Jon does leave the Night’s Watch (seen as deserting).

For me, I think how this relates to Jon may be in Varys’s saying: “Power resides where men believe it resides.” I interpret this as that it’s not the truth of situations which define outcome but what the people believe/perceive.

2. The claim that Dany is a “girly-girl”. Yes, Dany certainly has conventionally feminine traits but I’d argue these don’t define her as they do Sansa and other characters. Dany also occupies many traditionally masculine roles (conqueror, leads armies, rules). Also being the mother of dragons – another non-conventionally feminine thing. Waiting for rescue while in a tower, brushing out her hair, isn’t really who Dany is or what she does. She's not martially trained by neither was Val, Alys, or Arya when Jon knew her. Nymeria never bears arms either but she’s known as a warrior queen.

Jon seems to have great respect for women like Alys, like Val, neither of whom are combatants and both having traditionally feminine traits. Yet, Jon still views Val as a “warrior princess” for her courage and resourcefulness. She's lethal. She's proactive. She completed a mission his men kept failing at. Jon also admires Alys for her courage and for her willingness to marry a wildling leader ("Let him be scared of me." ).

I’d argue Val and Alys, Arya, and Ygritte are all resourceful, courageous, proactive, and willing to challenge Westerosi convention, whether they bear arms or not. These traits, including opposing oppressive conventions, are something I’d argue Dany does as well.

Jon too wants a simple life with love and children, not unlike Dany. That’s what he was hungering for when contemplating Stannis’s offer: lordship of Winterfell with a woman he loves and children (including two wildling kids Jon wants to foster). Jon mentions that decision would be much easier if Ygritte had been alive which makes sense to me because Ygritte was a woman he loved and the only woman Jon has fallen in love with so far. 3. One of your anons said this: “Daenerys is willowy and tiny in stature as well, not hardened and tall. Yet more proof she isn’t Jon’s type and is exactly the type of feminine woman Jon reviles and is repeatedly derisive and misogynistic toward in his POV.”

Arya and Ygritte are both petite and skinny too. I’d also argue neither are/were hardened… They each exhibit vulnerability with Jon.

4. There are multiple instances in Jon’s POV that refer to Jon having to “steal” a woman to win her love per wildling ways (“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love”). I’m wondering if perhaps that has something to do with Dany’s wish that a man come and take her away as her brother did with Lyanna.

5. Where does Jon… sell people?

There is more I'd like to respond to but I'm verbose enough as it is and am afraid of my post becoming tl;dr.

I'm sorry if I've misunderstood you at all.

Jon Snow’s misogyny toward feminine women who brush their hair and wait for knights to rescue them vs. Daenerys being feminine and wanting a man to carry her off is another clear indication of how incompatible Jon is for her:

In her dream they had been man and wife, simple folk who lived a simple life in a tall stone house with a red door. — ADWD, Daenerys II

Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario’s delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. —Daenerys IV, ADWD

In my Seven Kingdoms, knights go on quests to prove themselves worthy of the maiden that they love. — ADWD, Daenerys IV

How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. — ADWD, Daenerys VII

Another proof that Snowstorm shippers just see Daenerys as a self insert and don’t really know, like, or enjoy her character. Daenerys is NOT a warrior woman. She’s never had the privilege of being militarily or martially trained or given weapons to duel with. She likes brushing her hair and keeping it clean and bathing, things Jon seems to take issue with women doing.

Daenerys is willowy and tiny in stature as well, not hardened and tall. Yet more proof she isn’t Jon’s type and is exactly the type of feminine woman Jon reviles and is repeatedly derisive and misogynistic toward in his POV.

And I hate Jon’s line because Daenerys is a vulnerable and young orphan girl who suffered severe abuse from her brother. She wants to be rescued and protected. I don’t care about what Jon wants, except when it conflicts with what Daenerys wants.

This is an actually pretty good point to consider. Has there actually been some evidence that Jon would "make an exception" towards Dany or otherwise value ttis aspect to her for jonerys/snowstorm fans?

[somegrumpynerd]

Cross has trouble getting to sleep alone in his room and goes looking for a distraction, but ends up finding a solution for both of them

[fiepige]

Okay guys, hear me out:

Sea Serpent Hobie!!!

Sea Serpent Hobie who sinks any superyachts he comes across!

Sea Serpent Hobie who uses harpoon spears meant to kill him as piercings! And old anchor chains as jewelry!

Sea Serpent Hobie who attacks big commercial fishing boats that are destroying the ecosystem by overfishing

But also benign Sea Serpent Hobie, who aids those lost at sea!

Who helps smaller local fishing buisnesses with sustainable fishing

Who looks out for this small fishing community and in return they warn him whenever hunters show up in the area!

Sea Serpent Hobie who is huge but still manages to hide perfectly in the kelp forests!

Who has bioluminescence and uses it both to terrify enemies and as a way to calm down people in distress, as a way for him to signal goodwill - and to show off when he feels like it!

Who can change his pigmentation similarly to octopi to communicate his mood and feelings! Or just to blend in with his surroundings (also as a nod to the way he changes filters in the movie!)

Sea Serpent Hobie who's frequently seen swimming with whale pods- Orcas being his favourites to hang out with (they sometimes go on yacht sinking trips together)

Sea Serpent Hobie who likes to give people a show and will show off by breaching right next to unsuspecting boats

DO YOU SEE MY VISION?!??

SEA SERPENT HOBIE!!!!!!💙💙💙

[binniesunderworld]

"I once compared Adrien to a mirror that projects the user's perception and cognition. Anyone who uses him, approaches him, educates him and guides him. His people will subtly project their own shadows onto him, and he absorbs many of the not-so-good things without any analysis and almost greedily"

You know, I guess that's something his parents taught him. Adrien never had completely positive influences in his life before school. While there were people who liked him, they were not good role models. And growing up surrounded by those behaviours, he never questioned whether they were really bad until he entered society, as you said.

"I can guess that before s2, he may have borrowed the image of Emilie as his personality expression (they are equally emotional, refer to some other people's comments on Emilie's resistance to her native family), and the isolated environment is very suitable."

In ‘Simon Says’ there is a scene where Gabriel talks to Ladybug and says: "I have to apologize for my son, Ladybug. He's like his mother, way too overly dramatic". So it's basically a confirmation that S1 Adrien got his mother's personality. We don't know much about Mrs Agreste's personality, we only know that she was rebellious and capricious, but still kind and hated upper class responsibilities. And by ‘capricious’ I don't mean that she was a selfish brat, but that she had very specific desires and did everything in her power to get them. It's basically the same personality as S1 Adrien.

S2 Adrien from now on is basically Gabriel. Adrien internalised Gabriel's anger and made it his own, and so many of his other behaviours. For example: physical touch. Gabriel always touches Adrien (whether it is a hug, holding his hand or grabbing his shoulder) when he is going to manipulate him, and Adrien does not realise that this is manipulation because he is so unused to physical displays of affection. So he interprets this simply as a token of affection without any other intention behind it. And that is why every time Adrien tries to comfort someone or show how much he loves them, his way of doing so is physical contact, because that is his perception of a token of affection.

Here is an example of Gabriel manipulating with physical touch, not only Adrien but trying to do the same with Ladybug. He puts his hand on Ladybug's shoulder and says ‘what could possibly happen with you here to protect me?’ in a rather odd tone of voice. Then, in another scene, he asks her permission to touch her earrings and extends his arm to do so before she gives her consent, to which Ladybug looks rather uncomfortable. This kind of manipulation does not work with her because, unlike Adrien, she is not touch starved. Hence the difference in atmosphere between the chapters where he manipulates Adrien and this one where he tries to manipulate Ladybug: Adrien's are not uncomfortable because they are from the perspective of a victim who sees it as a good thing, Ladybug's are from the perspective of a person who knows that the behaviour is weird and that's why the scene is so uncomfortable.

Whatever, I started talking about Adrien and ended up talking about Gabriel. Sorry about that. I guess the conclusion of this is that Adrien is a sponge that absorbs all the behaviours he is exposed to: when his mum was a strong influence in his life he behaved like her, when Gabriel was he behaved like him and when Marinette (S5) was he started to see through his father's manipulation and in a way he also started to behave like her.

I really liked the points you made and I don't think there are any mistakes, you did a great job!

How Gabriel Agreste Destroyed Adrien's Life: A 3 a.m. Analysis

From: ‘I enrolled in a school without my father's permission, I ran away from home to attend the first day of school and although I don't want my father to be angry with me, I'm not afraid of a punishment either because I KNOW there won't be one’.

To: ‘My girlfriend is alone with my father, with no one to protect her, completely defenceless. I NEED TO SAVE HER’.

One knows that his father is a good person who, no matter how angry he is, would never hurt him. The other doesn't, it's the opposite, he is no longer sure of anything, he fears for the safety of those he loves and is so terrified that he is about to have a panic attack.

But how did we get from the first to the second?

How Gabriel Agreste's abuse managed to completely change his son in a matter of days

People don't remember this because it happened a long time ago and has not been repeated, but Adrien used to be a NORMAL person, not as perfect as he is now. While he has always been kind and polite, there were also times when he allowed himself to be a bit hostile and not as perfect as we are used to seeing him (as Adrien, not as Chat Noir). Usually that ‘good boy’ facade was only used in front of his father and Nathalie, but in front of his friends he behaved like a normal teenager, even becoming a bit teasing, self-centred and rebellious. "The Bubbler", "Animan", "Kung Food" and "Evillustrator" being the clearest examples of these behaviours, in particular towards Nino, Chloé and Marinette.

In S1 it becomes clear that the only conflict Adrien has with his father is the fact that he does not give him as much freedom as Adrien would like. Apart from this, Adrien has no other problems with him and considers him to be a good father. There are several of Adrien's behaviours that suggest that Gabriel's overprotectiveness towards him was the only thing wrong with him, but that otherwise Gabriel was excellent. It is time for us to look at that.

1. Origins

Adrien literally enrolled in a school without his father's permission and when his father refused to approve Adrien's attendance, he ran away from home and went running to school. When Nathalie tries to convince him to come back Adrien simply says ‘this is what I want’ and turns around to continue up the stairs, not caring if she has anything else to say. He hears that someone needs help and immediately goes to their aid, and as soon as he finishes doing that he turns to Nathalie and the bodyguard with a charming smile expecting to see their proud faces, and when instead he sees that they are still angry he is immediately horrified and gives up.

This tells us a lot about Adrien: he is a spoilt child who has never been punished in his life, and when things get difficult his first reaction is to be adorable or do a good deed to be forgiven. Adrien intended to leave Nathalie talking to herself, and he wasn't worried about the idea of being punished when he got home from school because he knew it wasn't likely to happen. He then helps someone to ingratiate himself with Nathalie and the bodyguard so that they will stop being angry, and when he realises that it didn't work he is surprised. He is used to people forgiving his disobedience just because he is cute. He immediately gives up and asks Nathalie not to tell Gabriel. While he didn't want his father to be angry with him, he also didn't fear punishment because he knew he wouldn't get it.

Later, at the mansion, Adrien realises that Nathalie did tell Gabriel and he feels betrayed, as if he didn't expect her to do that. Basically, he is not used to people disobeying him. Gabriel again forbids Adrien from going to school but it's nothing he hasn't said before: Gabriel reprimands Adrien's behaviour with words, never with punishment, and there comes a point when words are no longer enough and Adrien is no longer afraid of them, hence he becomes ‘rebellious’. The next day Adrien runs away again and, surprise surprise, he is not punished, in fact he is rewarded. Despite having disobeyed his father again, he is rewarded and allowed to go to school, even Nathalie (whom he treated very badly) offers to help him. This reward is without explanation, just because. I'm not saying Adrien deserved to be locked up for life at home, at the end of the day he's just a teenager who wants to socialise with more people, but it's clear he was a spoilt child whose behaviours both good and bad were praised, just like Chloé and Felix, so if you ever wondered why he was such good friends with them, here's your answer.

2. The Bubbler

Here we get confirmation of how Adrien is a good boy only in front of his father and Nathalie, and how he is himself in front of his friends. At the beginning of the episode he together with Nino makes fun of his father because he does not agree to throw him a birthday party. Then, when Nino is akumatized, he at first refuses to be part of the party because he cares about Nino and wants to save him. Even when he realises that all the adults are trapped in bubbles, he never cares about his father, Nathalie or his bodyguard, only about saving Nino. And then he also gives up on this idea after a little chat with Plagg and says: "Okay, you're right. This might be the first day in my life that I actually get to do what I want for once", and Adrien joins the party without any show of consideration for the adults he knows.

Although all these behaviours were forgotten by the fandom, they are important to understand Adrien's character and how he changed due to his father's abuse. This is the normal behaviour of a teenager with a bit of a grudge: he's not a psychopath who wants something bad to happen to his father, he's a kid who knows that in the end he and his superhero partner will fix everything and he allows himself to have fun in the meantime. But it's something the current Adrien would never do, and there's where the difference lies.

3. Volpina & The Collector

This is the last episode in which we see Adrien acting like a normal teenager. He overhears Gabriel talking on the phone and decides to spy on him, then discovers that he has a safe behind his mother's portrait and out of curiosity goes to investigate. Adrien discovers the book and takes it with him, when he is discovered he quickly makes up a lie. RIP pre-lobotomised Adrien, you will always be missed.

This is the key point in the change of behaviour of both Adrien and Gabriel.

Gabriel confronts Adrien and he immediately gives an explanation in a tone of voice intended to generate sympathy:

—I just wanted to know what you were hiding behind that portrait that was so important.

This doesn't work so he resorts to blaming Gabriel himself:

—You.. you never told me about those things.

And this doesn't work either, so he decides to admit what he did but also looks for a way to justify himself:

—I was intending to give it back to you, I swear. But then I lost it.

Gabriel tells Adrien that he no longer trusts him, and what is Adrien's reaction? He just looks jaded and apologises to Gabriel, in an attitude that makes it clear that he is used to apologising to make things right, that he is not genuinely sorry, and also offers to buy him a new copy, confident that this will be enough for Gabriel to forgive him. This confirms the previous point: Adrien is used to getting out of his punishments just because he looks cute or does a good deed, and this became so repetitive that Adrien already knew how to get out of a punishment, and was not afraid of his father but simply tired of scolding that went nowhere. Again, there is no fear of consequences.

Everything changes completely when Gabriel tells him that this book is unique in the world, that there is no other copy. Apologies didn't work and the other form of redemption, buying him a copy, wasn't possible. Then is when Adrien's face changes completely to horror: he has just understood the magnitude of his mistake. His father punishes him by forbidding him to go back to school and Adrien is heartbroken, but does not try to reason with his father (as he had done, and many times, in past episodes). This is the birth of the Adrien we know now: from a normal boy to a submissive puppet. He knows that there is no way to redeem himself and that is why he decides not to fight, he finally realises that his actions have consequences, serious ones, taking away what is most precious to him: his freedom.

From here on we see a completely changed Adrien, from a rebellious teenager to a perfect doll with no thoughts of his own. Before, he pretended to be perfect only in front of his father, Nathalie and his bodyguard. Now he pretends to be perfect in front of everyone, regardless of whether he knows them or not. The trauma can be clearly seen: Adrien adopts this neat behaviour because he is afraid that his freedom will be taken away if his father finds out that he made another mistake. Now Adrien knows that he CAN be punished. He doesn't even allow himself to breathe in peace because of all the stress and fear he carries. And so it is that Adrien becomes a puppet unable to stop pretending even in front of his own friends: we go from an Adrien who was not afraid to react strangely to Marinette's odd behaviour, who was not afraid to tease Nino about his crush and who was not afraid to put Chloé in her place when the situation warranted it, to an Adrien who could not even keep his back bent for fear that his father would consider it inappropriate.

Gabriel Agreste being a shitty father and exploiting his son's weaknesses to profit from them

Despite being strict with Adrien, there were times when Gabriel let him spend time with his friends and have fun with them. In fact, in S1 there are several of these, most of them to be found there (before all the drama).

In ‘Animan’ he is in the zoo helping Nino with his date with Marinette.

In ‘Gamer’ he is playing video games for the school championship at Marinette's house.

In ‘Kung Food’ he comes to Marinette's house to help her with her uncle and even takes them to the hotel and stays for dinner with them, he spends practically the whole day away from home.

In ‘Horrificator’ he spends many hours filming the movie for the school.

In ‘The puppeteer’ he is going somewhere alone and relaxed.

In ‘Timebreaker’ he is present during the race between Alix and Kim.

As you can see, despite being strict, Gabriel sometimes let his son spend time with his friends. When did this change? After the book incident. After forbidding Adrien to attend school, Gabriel noticed how heartbroken he was and realised that school and his friends were not a whim for Adrien, but something he truly cherished. And Gabriel used these feelings to manipulate Adrien. In S1, before the incident, Adrien is more ‘rebellious’ and still has enough freedom to be with his friends. In S2, after the incident, Adrien behaves much better than in S1 and still doesn't have half as much freedom as before, and when he finally gets his father's permission to be with his friends, something happens at the last minute (Heroes Day Part 2, for example). This is because his father has discovered his Achilles' heel and uses it to benefit himself and manipulate Adrien.

The clearest proof of this is in the difference between ‘Horrificator’, where Gabriel let Adrien spend hours in the school filming the movie, and ‘Queen Banana’, where Gabriel let Adrien go for only a few minutes to the filming and right after he finished his part he literally left in a cage hanging from a helicopter. It is clear the pleasure that man developed in making his son miserable.

And we could talk about ‘Chat Blac’ and ‘Ephemeral’, but I won't touch those topics as they are not part of our timeline. I'll just say that they made it clear how far Gabriel is willing to go (literally traumatise Adrien) in order to get what he wants. What I think, is sick.

Adrien's Stockholm Syndrome: normalisation, justification and romanticisation, and how it makes him vulnerable to unhealthy relationships

1. Gabriel

We have already made it clear that Adrien became an uncritical puppet, and as a result he developed a terrible Stockholm syndrome. Adrien normalised all the manipulation, and by accepting it as something usual this caused him to start justifying it as well. Needless to name the episodes, in many of them there is always someone (usually Nino, Marinette or Plagg) who points out his father's problematic behaviour and Adrien immediately tries to justify it with ‘he does it because he loves me’ or ‘he just wants to protect me’. This shows us a big difference from the Adrien of S1 who was aware of his father's behaviour and even made fun of it, the current Adrien would never do that, on the contrary, he seems to live to justify Gabriel's actions. That's how serious the brainwashing is.

With Gabriel's behaviours now normalised and justified, they in turn begin to be romanticised. Despite being a shitty person, there are moments when Gabriel treats Adrien well: like when he hugs him (something Adrien is not used to), his worried words to Chat Noir about losing Adrien, or when he watches his mother's movie with him. These are all details that if they weren't accompanied by manipulation, anyone could call ‘cute’. And this makes Adrien unaware of the manipulation at first: his own denial and the kind details his father had for him confused his brain. Adrien did not think that his father could be so kind to him if he was a bad person, and that is why Adrien refused to consider him as such. This is a method of self-defence against dangerous situations, the feelings developed by this are not only romantic but any kind of feelings that are enough to make the victim feel safe in dangerous environments.

2. Kagami and Marinette

Let's start with Adrigami. Adrien didn't show a strong interest in Kagami until the chapter ‘Oni-Chan’ where he even rejects Ladybug's fist to make sure Kagami is okay, but what led to this? The romanticisation of obsession and control.

Kagami is simply Adrien's friend, but when she sees a photo of him with another girl, she gets so jealous that she is akumatized and starts chasing this other girl to get her away from Adrien. This is behaviour that is bad as a girlfriend, but even worse as a friend. Adrien doesn't take this seriously and even spends the whole fight making jokes instead of worrying that one of her friends is a jealous girl who is willing to kill for him even if they don't have any kind of commitment. Then, when he sees that Kagami still has the rose he gave her, his behaviour immediately changes and you could say that this is when he starts to feel a real attraction to her, even rejecting Ladybug's fist, whom he had long been in love with.

Here we see how dangerous the romanticisation of problematic behaviour is: Adrien is willing to let go of all the chaos Kagami caused and all her toxic behaviour just because she showed that she really ‘loved him’. And he reciprocates her feelings because he finds it cute that someone is in love with him enough to go crazy. The romanticisation of Gabriel's actions eventually led Adrien to romanticise other people's actions, even going so far as to feel honoured by all the questionable actions these people committed under the justification of loving him.

Something quite similar happens with Adrinette. In S5 Adrien mentions that he started to accept his feelings for Marinette from what happened in ‘The Puppeteer 2’, and there's no way this isn't weird. He had feelings for Marinette long before that, but it was that event that led him to accept them. Marinette literally assaults a ‘statue’ just because it looks like Adrien, starts fantasizing about a life together, steals one of his hair and many other weird things, and what's Adrien's response? To say that he fell in love. He literally saw how far Marinette was capable of going because of her obsession with him, and as much as that behaviour was justified with ‘it was a joke’, instead of caring, what he does is fall in love with her... because of her obsessive and bizarre behaviour towards him.

It is honestly quite disappointing to see how Gabriel's manipulation damaged Adrien to the point of leaving him craving only unhealthy relationships because that was his perception of love.

Both victim and perpetrator

Adrien developed a split personality and a taste for taking advantage of people when he is in situations of power. Gabriel turned Adrien into a victim and a perpetrator, the role depending on the situation. When Adrien is the one at a disadvantage, he displays submissive and manageable behaviour. When he has all the power, he has no problem using it selfishly and taking advantage of others. This was taught by Gabriel, from prudence to ruthlessness, are things Adrien learned from him. And in a way that's how Adrien differs from Chat Noir: the power they possess.

Adrien is always at a disadvantage: his life is in the public eye, everything he does is always monitored by his father or his fans, and if he makes a mistake it is very easy for his father to find out and punish him. This is why Adrien, always powerless, forces himself to act submissively. He does not possess the power in such situations, so he can only act as he is expected to act.

As Chat Noir things are quite different, he always has the power. Chat Noir is a superhero, he watches over Paris but no one watches over him, he has freedom, destructive power, a city that depends on him and a partner who needs him to defeat the supervillains. He has the power. And he uses this power to his advantage.

A clear example of this is his tendency to threaten. Adrien has several times been willing to give up his miraculous and even verbally threaten (in a passive-aggressive way) Ladybug just because it bothers him that she has secrets. All of S2 was Adrien threatening to give up his miraculous if Ladybug didn't tell him her secrets, and this behaviour wasn't like ‘we can't keep hiding things from each other anymore, this isn't healthy for me and if we're not going to be honest it's best to just give up’, no, this behaviour was like ‘if you don't tell me what you're hiding, I'll give this up and you see if you can do it all by yourself or if you find me a replacement’. I understand that he was tired of the situation, but manipulation is never justifiable behaviour. Evidence of this is found in episodes such as ‘Syren’, where Adrien even threatens Plagg with give up his Miraculous if he doesn't tell him what Ladybug is hiding.

Another example is ‘Glaciator’, where he invites Ladybug to a dinner and she makes it clear that she already has plans and is unlikely to go. And yet Adrien is self-illusioned, and when his fantasies are shattered by something Ladybug had already warned him would happen, he simply accuses her of mocking him, throws a tantrum, refuses to help with the akuma, and when Ladybug comes up with a good plan to defeat the villain he guilts her by saying: ‘Sorry, Ladybug, it's not cool to play with people's feelings’ when Ladybug never played with his feelings and in fact realised these only minutes ago.

There are many other episodes like these, too many to list. I guess the most notorious ones are ‘NY Special’ (where he has no problem being unfaithful to Kagami) and ‘Lies’ (where he also has no problem being unfaithful, lying to her, trying to provoke akumatizations and so on). His problematic behaviours are not only as Chat Noir, but also as Adrien when he finds himself in relationships where he has the power. In his courtship with Kagami he knows that she is completely in love with him and uses this to his advantage and does truly horrible things like the ones mentioned above without regard for her feelings because he knows or believes that she won't leave him. Something similar happens with his friendship with Chloé, he knows how much Chloé appreciated him and so every time she committed a bad deed he threatened to end their friendship. It's not wrong to want your friend to stop being a shitty person, and it's okay to let him/her know that if he/she continues this stupid behaviour you'll have no choice but to walk away, but the problem with this is that we go from Adrien's genuine concern for Chloé to empty threats just because, in the end, Chloé wouldn't change her behaviour and he wouldn't leave either.

Conclusions

This is not as well written as I would like it to be. I procrastinated for weeks and when I finally decided to write it I no longer had the series so fresh in my memory. I am a teenager with no professional knowledge of psychology who wrote this at 3 a.m. while I was not so sober.

This post is not salt against Adrien/Chat Noir, in all of ‘Miraculous’ there are only two or three characters I hate and none of those are Adrien, so this post is not hate towards him. While I did describe some of his behaviour in a not so nice way, that was not a personal opinion but an analysis. Like when you go to a psychologist and he doesn't give you his personal opinion but a diagnosis, the main difference being that I am not a professional nor do I claim to be one. Anyways, this is a direct attack on Gabriel Agreste for being a shitty person.

As you may have noticed, most of this analysis is based on S1 to S3. While I did mention some episodes from S4 and S5 they were not as relevant, this is because the first 3 seasons are the ones I've seen the most and ergo the ones I remember the most, maybe later (I don't think so) I'll do a part two on S4 and S5.

Finally: my personal opinion on Adrien. He is an amazing character whose development and build goes unnoticed by the fandom, this is probably because it wasn't done on purpose (if this character build was planned it wouldn't be half as good as it is, the writers aren't that talented). Adrien is just a boy, a victim of an abusive home that ingrained several of his father's behaviours within him and he has no ‘true personality’ as this depends on the situation he finds himself in. He acts this way as a method of survival and although it is not right, it is a psychological response and it is not as if he can help it. I'm really happy that the poor boy is free from his abusive father and I hope that in S6 he can be happy and get therapy.

[astro-b-o-y-d]

I'm aroace, and at most I like to consider Bill and Ford's relationship to be a little bit more complicated than what would be considered romantic. I feel like a lot of allos forget that there's more than just friendship, romance, and family dynamics, and not all of them have exact words to explain them! While it's undeniable that the book of Bill was implying a romantic undertone, it can just as easily be interpreted into something that's far more interesting!

It's hard to put into words how I'm currently viewing their relationship but it's mostly a mutual obsession, that loneliness and longing for connection Ford has with Bill despite the fact he's literally IN HIS MIND. It isn't romance, it's a man who feels impossibly alone and is trying to connect with something he thinks is similar in intelligence to him.

Bill's side is an obsession that Bill refuses to unpack in favor of taking over the world, because to be clear, Bill cares about Ford but he doesn't understand that Ford isn't "just like me fr." He's also just generally insane and thinks that Ford would genuinely side with him, eventually or otherwise. Unfortunately, he thought wrong.

I also liked that idea that he's obsessed with Ford in the little blorbo way, it's the closest way to describe it. It's so distinctly not romantic and I can't place it in anything else. He turns him to gold and uses him as a fidget toy- that's not screaming "omg old man yaoi" it's "chat should I turn Sixer into a paperweight"

Speaking of him being an unredeemable abuser..I mean it's not wrong and I can't say I can't see it but I also like reading stories where he gets redeemed anyway (dragged kicking and screaming) because it's far worse for a person to do horrible things, than a "monster" to do it. Like from what I've gathered bill accepts the fact that he's horrible and unredeemable, but imagine him having to confront that he's NOT that?

Imagine him having to accept the fact that he isn't this concept of an evil and unforgivable monster but a person who has done horrible and unforgivable things, and now he just has to accept that and become better. He's a person, and that's far worse. (Based on the fact he tried saying everyone loved him on Euclydia and he liberated them all when the decoded messages displayed a very different story, and then him being devastatingly honest with Ford. I think he wanted to be a monster- it's easier to swallow that a monster did those things than the idea that he made a mistake. Lie until you're not lying anymore.)

Oops a bit long but I don't find much others who takes their relationship as anything other than romantic. Aro curse 💔

Anon, I think you perfectly summed up my own personal feelings about their dynamic. There's nothing more I could add myself, well done. 🧡🧡🧡

(Also lmao, aro curse 💔💔💔)

[wildtornado-o]

Frequently thinking of how Forthing tried to offer Temeraire some comfort after Laurence's "death" despite how he had been treated by him all the time prior. I think it just says a lot about him as a person idk

[apologetic-artist]

Haven't posted an actual art piece in a min but let me cook for a sec

I love Smile Dog sm, fav creepy pasta of all time

(How the actual drawing is going)

SPREAD THE WORD ah image

(It's a w.i.p)

[willowser]

How are you always so right about Bakugou?

stopppppp you're too sweet !! 🥺🥺🥺 i feel like !!! i just have a very particular vision of him in my head !! if that's.....canon-compliant, i am not always sure but !!! that's just how i like him 🥺🥺🥺 and i remember the early days of lil willowser dot tumblr dot gov when i was worried people would clown me for my interpretation of him LMAOOO but 🥺 everyone is always so nice 🥺 including you, friend 🥺 i'm glad we're all enjoying him 🥺

[pikslasrce]

a man will say with his whole chest that hes his own companion for now and live alone after a short timeskip and ppl will interpret it as getting back with his ex just bc they talked some stuff out. like did you not hear herrr shes focusing on herself #selfcare #healingera

[pup-pee]

keep thinking about how kory rlly taught dick how 2 express love freely

but then other ppl took advantage of that love

[theokusgallery]

OKAY OKAY I SAW YOUR MOST RECENT ART POST

AND I LOVE IT

BUT BUT

I'M SORRY BUT

SUNNY LOOKS LIKE HE'S PROCESSING THAT THIS BLONDE GAYASS GUY LIKES HIM

HE GOT NO THOUGHTS

AT ALL

BEHIND THOSE EYES

I'M SORRY DON'T KILL ME PLEASE

Sunny's like "oh shit when he said he liked me he meant it"

[sparrowstarsandsorrow]

YEEESSS!! HE IS!!! HE WAS THE BEST FUCKING WARRIOR IN THIS FILM! SUCH A REBEL TOO, THIS IS WHY I ADMIRE THE CHARACTER SOOOO MUCH!!!! ✊️✊️✊️

HE DID HIS DAMN BEST JUST TO GET SHIT FROM BARNES. He got cheated so dirty, it wasn't right or fair at all (I know that may be the point of his character, but still)

[therevengeoffrankenstein]

something that strikes me about pw's 'gray' is just how. religious it is. it's very religious. religion plays such a subtle, omnipresent role in it. because of course it does.

[rivilu]

Wait. Logistically speaking. Would Elluin even know how to read.