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aboveallarescuer · 4 years ago

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Btw, I wonder if you ever thought about the Jaime/Cersei and Dany/Daario relationships paralleling eachother? I never see people talking about it but some of their quotes and scenes seem intentionally similar to me. + For example, how Daario and Jaime's (yes, Jaime Lannister is a toxic romantic partner, the fandom can stay mad) reaction to their respective marriage proposals are heavily linked with posession (more so than love).

First of all, Anon, I'm assuming you're the same person who sent me two asks, this one and another about Tyrion. Re: the latter ask, I basically agree with your comments and have nothing substantial to add, so I'm going to focus on answering this one.

So, yes, I had thought about similarities between Dany/Daario and Cersei/Jaime before, but I'm glad you sent me this ask because you made me think of more parallels and antiparallels. They are certainly worth discussing because they highlight different aspects of Dany's and Cersei's characters and make it clear, once again, that they are meant to be foils.

(I'm not going to add book quotes here because I'm tired, sorry... But you can ask for evidence in another ask if you find anything I say questionable)

Daario and Jaime are both hot-headed, arrogant warriors presented as alternatives to the husbands of the two queens (Hizdahr, Robert).

Both Dany and Cersei love these men instead of their husbands.

Both Daario and Jaime react angrily when they find out that Dany and Cersei are going to marry.

Both Daario and Jaime ask the queens to leave their husbands and to be with them instead, but they both deny their requests.

Both Daario and Jaime offer to kill their queens' husbands for them. Both Dany and Cersei imagine the two men following through with their threats at some point.

Dany ends her affair with Daario after she takes Hizdahr as her consort. Cersei doesn't end her affair with Jaime after marrying Robert (and she did nothing wrong in this particular situation).

Neither Dany nor Cersei hides their affairs well (though it's worth noting that Cersei is being more reckless in doing so because she was queen consort and her power derived from Robert, while Dany was queen regnant and, therefore, had power in her own right. Indeed, Dany taking Daario as her lover is compared to Lewyn Martell, a man, taking a paramour in Dorne. That certainly isn't how the Faith views Cersei's affair with Jaime. Also, as I said above, Dany's affair lasted while she was unmarried, while Cersei's happened while she was married).

Dany thinks she'll never have a child with Hizdahr because she believes she's infertile. Cersei thought she'd never have a child with Robert back when he was alive because she always took measures to prevent that from ever happening (and she definitely did nothing wrong here).

Dany idealizes her relationship with Daario way more than Cersei idealizes hers with Jaime. For instance, Dany says to herself that she would give up her crown for Daario if he ever asked her to do so, but she doubts he ever would because she assumes he loves her solely because of her power. Cersei never considers giving up her crown for Jaime (to be fair, I don't think Dany would've done that for Daario either). In this particular case, I actually think that Rhaegar is Cersei's Daario, because it's with Rhaegar that Cersei dreamed and still dreams of marrying and having his children and living a blissful life together (though, even in that fantasy, Cersei would still want to be queen, while Dany thinks she'd be content living a normal life alongside the man she loves without any power or luxury in the house with the red door). Daario and Rhaegar (rather than Jaime) are the men who bring out Dany's and Cersei's romantic sides (which makes sense because Cersei idealized Rhaegar back when she was a young girl like Dany). Rhaegar is the one that got away for Cersei, and I imagine Dany will have similar feelings about Daario in the future.

At some point during their reigns, both Dany and Cersei send Daario and Jaime away, but for opposite reasons: Dany does so because Daario advised her to kill her subjects and she's appaled by the suggestion; Cersei does so because Jaime advised her to cooperate with her subjects and she assumes that that means he is disrespecting her authority (which he does sometimes, but not always).

It's harder for Dany to be apart from Daario than it is for Cersei to be apart from Jaime. Dany immediately regrets her decision to send him away and even goes as far as to think that, because she had an indirect role in Hazzea's death for allowing Drogon to roam freely, she is a monster just like Daario (seriously, how can anyone think that book!Dany is arrogant???). Meanwhile, Cersei only comes to regret her decision to send Jaime away after she needs his help, specifically after the Faith arrests her and she has no reliable option to choose to fight for her life in a trial by combat.

Both Dany and Cersei spend most of their storylines away from these men. (I could be wrong, but I don't think GRRM had Daario out of the picture because he was supposedly bored with him like I've seen some BNFs or 'neutrals' argue... I do think that was a choice specifically made to strengthen the parallels between Dany and Cersei).

Both Daario and Jaime feel jealous of Dany's and Cersei's relationships with other men throughout AFFC/ADWD.

Daario returns with the Stormcrows when Dany recalls him even though it would have been beneficial to betray her and turn to Yunkai's side, especially since he already knew that the Second Sons had done that. Jaime doesn't return when Cersei asks him to go back... You could even say that he switches sides, in a way, by deciding to prioritize Brienne's request instead. This is part of a larger pattern: while most of Dany's people (including Daario) remain loyal to her by the end, almost all of Cersei's allies abandon her. While it's said that Dany managed to keep everyone (former slaves and former masters) together, Cersei destroyed the Lannister-Tyrell alliance due to her poor decisions.

ADWD Daenerys X ends with Dany thinking about how Daario wouldn't mind seeing her in such a messy state like how she is by the end of the chapter. AFFC Cersei X ends with Cersei hoping against hope that Jaime will return and win her trial by combat. Both expect to be reunited with and to be saved by their lovers at the end of these chapters.

Dany doesn't trust Daario, but she doesn't close herself off from him either, which is why she has the support of the Stormcrows. Cersei says she lost her trust in Jaime, but then, by the end, she is in such a dire situation that she desperately decides to put all her hope in him and trust him way too much (to a degree that even Qyburn finds concerning since he lost his hand). This is part of a larger pattern: while Dany is wary of some people, she knows that she should still take risks and make alliances. This attitude doesn't make her omniscient and she is not immune to making mistakes or to people (like Brown Ben) betraying her, sure. That being said, Dany still remains open-minded, cooperates with influential allies and makes a peace agreement that could have worked if the deal wasn't inherently false for prioritizing the privileges of the masters over the lives of the slaves and if her primary goal wasn't to protect the disenfranchised first and foremost. Meanwhile, Cersei thinks she should distrust everyone, which leads her to alienate potential allies that could have been useful and to be surrounded by people who claim to agree with her on everything, but who are neither experienced nor reliable. Then she creates plans that rely way too much on these very untrustworthy people, which is why they backfire: from the construction of the dromonds (which she relied on Aurane Waters, who turned his back on her) to the attempt on Bronn's life (which she relied on Balman Byrch, who turned his back on her) to the scheme to have Margaery and her cousins arrested (which she relied on Osney Kettleblack, who turned his back on her) to the decision to rearm the Faith Militant (which she relied on the High Sparrow, who turned his back on her) to her decision to trust that Jaime (who also turned his back on her) will return to fight for her life ... I'm sure there are more examples, but that's enough to illustrate my point. Cersei's thinking is too extreme, while Dany has a healthy distrust of others. As a result, Cersei makes hasty decisions and burns bridges unnecessarily, while Dany is able to make more carefully weighed decisions, as well as to create and maintain important alliances.

Finally, I think Dany and Daario's relationship is more positive than Cersei and Jaime's. Not only there's no verbal abuse or disrespect of sexual consent like how it happens with Cersei/Jaime, but Daario didn't switch sides to Yunkai, gave her good counsel (such as when he tells her to hold court and reminds her that her children need her) and genuinely cares about Dany, which we see from when he tells her not to get married time and again to when we contrast him with Osney. He is possessive and brags about sleeping with her on some occasions, yes, but I think it was @evilwomen who pointed out in one of our conversations that Dany doesn't feel bothered by any of that, which goes to show how much she loves him, since she's willing to forgive actions that would be considered insults for his sake.

So, once again, thanks for this ask, Anon, it encouraged me to think about connections that I hadn't considered before.

And you know, I said this before and will say it again... This is why I think Dany is the YMBQ... Not just because she clearly fits all the requirements, but because she and Cersei were way too carefully written to parallel and contrast each other (so much so that the author mentioned that in multiple interviews). You said you "never see people talking about" the parallels between Cersei/Jaime and Dany/Daario, but look at how much I managed to find off the top of my head (and I'm not even sure this is comprehensive, tbqh)??? Now imagine that happening to all of their casts of supporting characters and to all the political events and to pretty much every single aspect of their characterizations and storylines. Their parallels and antiparallels are really overwhelming, and it's why I decided to make gifs showing why they're foils.

#daenerys targaryen #cersei lannister #daario naharis #jaime lannister #answered #asoiaf meta

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the-great-bbe · 4 years ago

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~What Can I Say Except You’re Welcome~

Or, a very quick summary of how Robert’s Rebellion is thwarted by the fortunate placement of a little black cat.

Were it not for the multiple witnesses, King Aerys II Targaryen’s death would certainly have sparked suspicion and war. As it is, all of the Great Hall saw what happened. When Rickard Stark chose his son Brandon as his champion in his trial of the gods, Aerys chose fire. He ranted, he raved, he delighted at their agony. He stood up and swung his arms around as if he were the maestro to the wildfire’s flames. When Princess Elia begged at his knees for mercy, he struck her across the face and nearly knocked her down the sharp steel steps jagging down to the dais of the Iron Throne.

He was in his element of madness. So it is only fitting that madness was his end.

So consumed by mania he was, he did not see tiny little Balerion the cat steal up the steps to lick at Elia’s wounds. But his foot did catch against the kitten’s side and Aerys stumbled. Just a moment of uncertainty, of confusion–just a moment was needed to send him tumbling. And unlike Elia who is sure-footed, Aerys is a spindle of wasted muscle and overgrown nails.

He falls, and falls, and falls, and falls down dead.

Everyone is silent and stares at his corpse. The king is surely dead, considering the unnatural angle of his spine and the way his chin now rests on the back of his shoulders. Elia is the first to react and screams at the pyromancers to put out the fires now lest they also wished to be smited by the gods. Because obviously the little black cat is an agent of the Stranger and the gods are furious with them all. Rickard has some burns on his legs but will recover, and Brandon has some bruising around his neck but is no worse for wear than Elia’s black eye.

All the while Balerion mews from his seat the Iron Throne and begs for treats. The Hand laughs in a bit of hysteria and bows to Balerion. A few more follow suit until Elia, in a huff, collects Balerion in her arms and leads the Starks to her private apartments. Queen Rhaella, now Queen Mother, laughs, and laughs, and laughs until she too leaves for the apartments.

When they emerge, they are in agreement. Rhaegar has brought scandal, shame and sorrow to Houses Stark and Baratheon and must face his crimes. Rhaella, not wanting anything to do with her son’s actions as she’s suffered from her brother-husband’s all her life, washes her hands of the matter entirely and requests to live in peace with little Viserys until he’s old enough to become relevant. Rickard agrees to bend the knee to little King Aegon in exchange for a new marriage to soothe the one his family lost. A bewildered Varys watches Balerion from a corner with terrified eyes. Like falling dominoes, like tripping over a cat, it all falls together.

They find Rhaegar and Lyanna in Dorne, and Oberyn cheerfully drags them back by their hair and into Rickard’s cold embrace. Lyanna’s claims of true love quickly fall apart when Rhaegar explains exactly what he meant by the three heads of the dragon and she begs to go back to the North before she’s used as an incubator; Elia is more than happy to spare the girl the fate she herself fared with Rhaegar. Robert Baratheon and his grandmother Princess Rhaella are invited to Kings Landing where the two lovebirds are made to apologize on their knees. They didn’t want to, of course, but Balerion swept by their knees and trilled. And even they, bold as brass, felt the fear of the gods old and new put back into their hearts.

Rhaegar is sent to the Wall and Lyanna back to Winterfall with a much greater appreciation of stranger danger. Robert is offered Catelyn Tully, as Brandon cannot marry her now–he is to marry Queen Regent Elia and set to rights House Stark’s lost connections. Thoroughly disenchanted and embarrassed, Robert marries Catelyn with little fuss, and Princess Rhaelle stays in the Red Keep permanently to have a firm hand in her great-grand nephew’s raising. But with her, Elia, Brandon, Rhaella, Rhaella’s incredibly faithful knight Ser Bonifer Hasty, and a regency council with all of the High Lords of Westeros breathing down his neck...well, at least Balerion likes Aegon and purrs on his tiny lap. There is no greater sign of the gods’ favor and the High Septon signs off on it.

King Aegon is betrothed to Margaery Tyrell for her fat dowry and Princess Rhaenys to Edmure Tully to tie together all the regions, as well as the lovely Ashara Dayne to poor tongue-tied Ned, to both make sure all is well between the North and Dorne, and because Elia and Brandon think they’re adorable.

Tywin Lannister is upset that Ser Jaime refuses to return to Casterly Rock and that Cersei has to marry Elbert Arryn instead of a prince. Such is the lot of those who take too long to make marriages and are too proud to accept less than a crown. No one pities him and he stews in the Rock on all his gold until Elia and Brandon have a daughter named Alys and are willing to marry her to Tyrion if it means he’ll stop pouting.

Life is good as it ever gets on Westeros, and no one is burned to death or strangled or murdered in front of their children, and thousands do not die for the sake of a king’s madness and a prince’s callousness. Instead King Aegon is raised to be an excellent king, and Elia and Brandon learn to love each other with all the passion they would’ve never had with their intended spouses, and Lyanna has a son with a good honest man she truly loves when she is of age to be a mother, and Catelyn whips Robert into shape as she will not tolerate his drinking, and all of Cersei’s children are Elbert’s, and Rhaegar gets his fill of self-serving prophecies when he’s used as target practice on the other side of the Wall.

Most of all, the salmon trade with Braavos explodes, as Balerion loves salmon. And the will of the gods is not to be ignored.

#what can i say except it's a crackfic #the crackiest of crackfics #asoiaf fanfiction #i have no excuses or explanations #becky blue eyes #balerion the cat

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cami-chats · 5 years ago

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First Choice

Fandom: Game of Thrones

Pairings: Sandor Clegane/Sansa Stark

Summary: Trapped in King's Landing, Sansa is offered one choice about her life: who she wants to marry. Picking Ser Sandor Clegane was one of her best decisions.

Warnings: Joffrey exists, a not entirely healthy relationship bc this isn’t a modern au

Sansa was standing in front of the court, down in the center like she'd done so many times now. Her hands were laced in front of her, and though she kept her posture relaxed and her back straight, she knew how cruel Joffrey could be even with Margaery holding most of his impulses back.

"You've been very good to the crown during the war, Lady Stark," he said, clearly a line he'd had to memorize from someone else. The only ‘goodness’ she’d had to the crown was not betraying them, something no one had expected. "It is long since time you be married. As a reward for your loyalty, you may choose your husband from any of my unmarried knights or lords of the court. Name them now and it will be so." If the little smirk on his face hadn't given away that that wasn't part of the plan, the way Cersei clenched her jaw would have done it.

Sansa now had to choose one of Joffrey's sycophants to shackle herself too, and everyone that thrived under his command was either cruel, or smart and cruel (like Littlefinger). She wished she could refuse, but that would undo all the success she'd managed in recent years. Her eyes flitted around quickly, saying a mental prayer to the old gods asking for guidance. She glanced over the King's Guard, then shot back. The law prohibiting them from marrying had been lifted, and the Hound was still unwed. He looked out of place in his white and golden uniform with his scraggly hair and sword that had seen more action than the rest of the King's Guard combined. He was not handsome, but he no longer scared her. He was the only person in the capital to ever protect her. Perhaps it was from a sense of duty or an order that had been given to him, but he'd done it all the same. "If it pleases Your Grace," she said, dipping into a curtsy, "I would wed Ser Sandor Clegane."

A beat of pure silence.

Margaery set a light hand on Joffrey's arm and whispered something in his ear. When she leaned back, he appeared cooperative, though his thumb was rubbing against the ring on his first finger the way he did when things did not go his way. "Very well, Lady Stark. I find your request in order. Queen Margaery will oversee the details as a testament to your friendship, and of course, the Queen's generosity." He gave a nod to dismiss her, and Sansa curtsied again before walking to the side of the room where the other lords and ladies were loitering. Many of them were staring outright, and the others were looking with little more subtlety. She kept her head high and continued looking towards the throne like nothing had happened.

Read on AO3 or below

"The fuck are you playing at little bird," he growled.

Sansa startled, nearly pricking her finger on her sewing needle. "It's called needlepoint, surely you've seen women doing that before."

"Everyone in the damn capitol knows that the women I bed are paid for their time."

"Hm. I don't suppose I could talk you out of doing that once we're married? It seems the only husband I know of that refused was my father."

"I'm not going to stop fucking just to remind you of your damned father."

"Why in seven hells would you assume I want you to stop entirely?" she asked mildly, not looking up from what she was doing.

Sandor snorted harshly. "It's a good thing you're talking to me and not some other man, he'd think that was an invitation."

"It was, rather. Perhaps I'll work on being more direct with you so that there is no misunderstanding on our wedding night."

He stared at her in disbelief for a long moment, then turned around and left, his armor clanking loudly against the stone.

"To the bedding!"

"No," Sandor spit out, that vicious bite to his voice that often preceded someone's guts spilling out of them.

Joffrey was the king, and before that he'd been a spoilt prince-- he wasn't used to people telling him no; he came up short.

"Does anyone here really doubt that I'll do it?" The answer was a resounding no. Sansa was poking idly at the remains on her plate, not reacting to what was being said even though every person there could hear what was happening and they knew that she could as well, what with Sandor being directly at her side and all. He picked up his drink and downed the rest of it. "Come on," he said, grabbing her arm and pulling her with him as he stood up. Fortunately, she'd been expecting something like that so she didn't make a mess. She dropped her fork and was able to get her skirt out of the way of the chair. She wasn't quite an expert on navigating the way he man-handled her, but she was sure she'd master it before the year was out.

Despite Sandor's declaration that no one was going to watch them, there were a few brave stragglers that peeked around corners and tried to follow them as silently as possible. Their attempts hardly mattered though, because Sandor slammed a bar over their bedroom door before any of them were in spitting distance. He was practically shaking with rage, shoulders tight and expression twisted into a scowl.

"I must admit, I didn't think you'd be so angry about this." She’d been stripped half naked and beaten in front of the entire court before, this was only a step further. Sansa had of course dreaded the event, but she had mentally prepared herself for it.

He glared at her. Once, it would have made her flinch. She used to be so terrified of him, but now it was difficult-- if not impossible-- to muster up that emotion. "Get on the fucking bed."

With a mental shrug, she started undoing the ties at the side of her dress. She doubted that he noticed the embroidered three hounds intermingling with Stark wolves, but she had made an effort.

In a quick motion, he was in front of her, so close she could smell the wine in his breath. His hand was like iron on hers, preventing her from continuing to take off her wedding gown. "What in seven hells are you doing."

"Getting undressed?" she said, raising an eyebrow. "I'm sure your usual bed mates keep their skirts on for ease, but I don't plan on leaving this room until morning so staying dressed seemed rather pointless."

He just stared at her incredulously.

Since it didn't look like he was going to let go of her hand so she could continue undressing, she leaned forward and kissed him. He jerked back, so shocked that he let go of her and actually took a step back like he was afraid of what she might do next. Figuring that she might as well take advantage of the situation, she went back to untying the side of her dress. She was glad she'd made it this way since clearly no one else was going to help her take it off. He didn't move again until after she finished, pushing the dress off so it fell to the floor in a heavy heap.

She felt nervous being so exposed in front of him. The only people that had seen her with so little on in this way had been either family or handmaidens, and Sandor was very clearly neither of those. She wanted him to think she was confident with herself and her body, so she continued to look at him the same as she'd done with her dress firmly on her shoulders. Nerves teased in her stomach though, a constant reminder that although she'd been briefly married to Lord Tyrion, they had never done what a wife and husband do. She tried to step forward, to take the next step for them, but he stopped her.

"What in seven hells do you think you're playing at, little bird?" he said, gripping one of her arms tightly, the arm held between them like a shield-- a shield that was about to bruise.

"It's called a wedding night, Sandor. Surely you've heard of it even though you've not been married before." When that didn't get a response, she added, "Consummation? We have sex so they can't split us up at a moment's notice?"

He ignored that. "You chose me. Why?"

"Who should I have picked instead?" she asked, raising an eyebrow. "Meryn Trant, who's beaten me and has interest in children? I'd rather slit my throat than entertain a single second of his time."

"Trant's a weak cunt, and he lost interest the moment it became clear you were a woman instead of a little girl," Sandor sneered, the very idea obviously bothering him.

"If not him, then who? Joffrey will still not let me return home to marry a northman. My choices were those in the hall that day, and I believe I chose the best." She was going to leave it there, but if there was ever a moment to be too honest, it might as well be when she was about to be naked in front of her new husband. Quietly, she added, "I would have chosen you all the same. Of all the men in Westeros, I would have picked you."

He scoffed, clear that he didn't believe her.

The sting of hurt was familiar, easy to swallow down like it didn't exist. "Does it really matter? We're here now. If you wanted to say no, you could have. You're on Joffrey's King's Guard, he would have given you that choice. So I think, if we're asking the question of 'why me', it should be you answering that."

"You're not blind."

"No, but you're acting like you are." She slid her small clothes off, and they landed atop her dress around her ankles. His eyes flickered down, then back up. Like she wasn't the least bit impressive to him. Like he'd seen better and could pay for better. She grit her teeth. "Fine." She turned around and stalked to the bed. It had been a while since she'd let herself get embarrassed. Surrounded by all these lions in the capitol, she'd done what she needed to, desensitized herself to the barbs and embarrassing words so she could survive. But now her face was flamed red, tears threatening to brim in her eyes. It had been presumptuous of her to assume that he would take no issue with this. She'd thought her fairy tale days were done, but here she was, assuming that Sandor would jump at the chance to be tied to her for the rest of his life-- or hers, whichever happened first. "You could have suffered through one night with me before you spent the rest of your time with the whores in this city, but I suppose I shouldn't have expected even that from you."

"Suffered?" Sandor repeated gruffly. There was something in his voice she couldn't describe, but it felt important.

She glanced back at him, and this time desire was obvious on his face. When he saw her looking, he couldn't change his expression fast enough to hide it. “Suffered,” she confirmed. “Because either you take me now, or you leave to have someone else.”

Margaery had taken her for a walk, the gardens filled with wintertime flowers since summer was still a ways off. Instead of having tea outside at the center table, they circled around until they were back inside, sitting in a little room that only had the one door. Privacy as much as the Queen could get, her guards standing outside that door but unable to hear them now. "So tell me," Margaery said conversationally, "how big is his cock?"

Sansa snorted, covering her mouth as she descended into laughter. When she composed herself, she said, still chuckling, "Satisfactory."

"Even better." She leaned forward, arms crossed in front of her on the table. "Now that you are living in wedded bliss, why the Hound? He's hardly the most handsome option that was available to you. I know that Joffrey did not allow you much time to pick," she said, expression twisting sympathetically, "but my brother was right there. We'd always talked about you joining my family."

"True, but I wanted a husband that would be more than inconvenienced by me. Loras is rather handsome, but we both know that he has no interest in me."

"A husband with no interest in you but you look good together, is better than most noble ladies receive."

"Yes, but now I have a husband with ample interest in me. I think I prefer it this way."

Margaery looked at her for a moment, then grinned. "You love him. Good for you. I always worried about your happiness when you're so far south. If um, you should find his attention wandering, let me know? I have a few tips I'm sure would be useful for you."

"I'll keep that in mind." She'd probably need the help. Getting Sandor to sleep with her even the once had been much more difficult than she'd anticipated.

"Do you like children?" she asked.

"No," he said shortly.

She didn't let that bother her. "Have you ever thought about having them?"

He looked at her, saw where the conversation was going and said, "You're a crazy cunt."

"And?"

"And you're the only one that's ever wanted to so I never considered it."

"Would you like to?"

"No."

"Will you get me pregnant so that at least I can enjoy having children?"

"The fuck's to enjoy. Kids are annoying and loud."

"You don't have to tell me. Arya and I picked on each other so much I'm surprised one of us did not accidentally perish."

"All the more reason not to have them."

"If I don't have children to worry over, I'll worry over you instead." He'd gotten a taste of what that had been like in the time they'd been married, and she was willing to bet he wanted to avoid it getting worse. "Is that what you want to look forward to?"

"You're manipulating me," he said, glaring at her. It wasn't playful; he was upset with her for even trying it. "Don't."

"Fine, I want to bear our children. Give them to me. I don't care if you don't, I do. Either you give them to me, or you refuse to fuck me so that you don't have to risk it. That is your choice."

"You're a bitch."

"And you're an arse. I suppose you can think on it as long as you need because it would be the same as refusing." That didn't mean she was above trying to get him to see it her way. Or, more accurately, she wasn't above reminding him how much he'd grown to like sex with her. After their first week together-- where he kept refusing her so she was trying to seduce him every night with questionable success-- they'd had something of a normal marriage. She joined Margaery or the other ladies of the court during the days, and at night he'd make her feel good. She had never known there could be satisfaction in bruises on her body, but the reminder of him gripping her hips was welcome.

When it came time to sleep, she stripped all the way down instead of changing into night clothes. Sandor gave her a withering look as if to say she wasn't fooling him, but he didn't say anything aloud. He took off his armor, the padding, and the soiled underclothes, then pulled on a clean set of underpants, not that it would do him much good from feeling her. He laid down, she pulled the covers up over them, and then she snuggled close, resting her head on his chest.

"What are you doing?"

She could feel the words rumbling inside his chest as he spoke them. It would be too strange to ask for him to keep talking so she could keep feeling it, but she wished that she could. "Getting comfortable."

He looked at her suspiciously, but when she didn't make a move to get more on top of him, he sighed and put an arm around her waist. He closed his eyes to go to sleep, but that only made him more aware of her. Despite all the times they'd had sex now, they didn't exactly cuddle. Normally they'd fuck, she'd get cleaned up, and by the time they were back in their clothes, they got to their sides of the bed and fell asleep. He was too awake to go straight to sleep, which meant that he was awfully aware of every inch of Sansa that was pressed against him. He slid his hand down to grip her arse, and he could feel her smile against his skin. "This doesn't mean you win," he said, rolling over so that he was on top of her.

She looked just as smug as he'd thought she would. "I don't need you to agree with me, Sandor. I just need you to get me pregnant."

"Why do you want children?" he asked, honestly confused as to why anyone would them, but especially Sansa with him.

"Why don't you?"

"Loud." He wound his fingers through her hair, letting some of his weight drop so she felt covered. "And annoying. They always need something."

"And I like to be needed. Besides, children have so little guile. They think they do, but when they lie, it's a harmless game. I prefer that to the lies adults tell me. And what can I say, I'm hoping for some sons."

"Sons," he repeated incredulously.

"You told me once, that my sons would be killers. My father was a killer, and my brothers would be, and my husband would be, and my sons will be. My father was, my brothers are now, my husband is. Is it wrong to want to prove you right?"

"It's not something to look forward to."

"My children will either be killers like their father, or victims like their mother. I'd rather they be killers."

"You feel like a victim with me little bird?" he asked, almost teasing instead of accusatory.

She curled her hands around his back, spread her legs just a little so he fit better in between them. "In bed, with you, I'm free. Out there, I'm a wolf without a pack, and the lone wolf dies." Something her father had said, trying to stress that they needed to stay together. As soon as they'd started going their separate ways, they'd started dropping like flies. Father, Mother, and Robb were dead. Jon probably was, and Theon was a traitor. Arya was likely dead for many years, Bran had survived originally but probably was dead now. Without any of the rest of them, what chance did little Rickon have? That left her, alone, with a hound for company and a rose with the sharpest thorns in the seven kingdoms. It wasn't a replacement for pack though. She knew that. With everyone else dead or missing and presumed dead, all she had for family was herself and the option of creating more family. "I want a family. I don't expect for you to be as involved in their lives as my father was in ours. All I ask is that you let me do this."

Sandor kissed her, and in the morning, he didn't ask where her usual foul smelling cup of tea was. She smiled, going about the rest of her day with a bounce in her step.

"Oh, by the gods, look at you!" Margaery beamed. She was standing across from Sansa, holding her hands in a joyous grip. "You're positively glowing. I think motherhood will suit you quite well if pregnancy makes you look so radiant."

Sansa laughed, easily falling into step next to her as they turned and Margaery looped their arms together. "I'm pleased you think so. I expect I'll be relying on you quite a bit. Sandor acts like I'll have two at once if he spends too much time with me."

"Men are like that," she said, rolling her eyes. "Give him some time, I'm sure he'll come around. If not, I hear there's a tavern that serves half price drinks to knights. Maybe that will pick his mood up."

"I doubt it." She was pretty sure that he didn't drink much anymore. Some wine, certainly, but he never dipped into anything harder these days. Mostly he joked that she was the reason he was drinking with all her prattling about babies, and that had been before she knew she was pregnant. Now that she did know, he'd probably be even more cross with her in their daily life. "But then, it can't hurt."

"That's the attitude that makes you so delightful," Margaery said, smiling kindly at her. If someone had told Sansa that her best friend would be Joffrey's wife, she would have thought them a liar. Margaery had been a gift from the gods as far as Sansa was concerned, saving her from either death or a marriage of torture with Joffrey. She managed to control most of his sadistic urges, though Sansa worried with the turn the war had taken, that there would be no holding him back before he died-- not that Sansa knew much of anything about the state of the war, but she did hear things sometimes. "Any idea what you're going to name them?"

"I only found out I was pregnant a few days ago, I haven't had time to think of names yet."

"Isn't Jon a good northern name? How about Jon?"

"Jon is also the name of my bastard brother that I treated rather poorly my entire life. The name is good, but I'm afraid the gods would sense a lack of humility."

"I'm not sure the gods care that terribly about your affairs, but then, the seven are different from the old gods. Perhaps you're right," she teased, "and they'll turn you into a toad for your horrible, horrible crime."

"Maybe not a toad," Sansa allowed with a laugh. "I suppose you have a suggestion for names?"

"Have you ever considered Margaery for a little girl's name?"

Sansa snorted so loudly she hurt her nose. She had basically recovered when Cersei Lannister showed up, flanked by two guards in Lannister red.

"Queen Margaery," she said, giving the barest incline of her head.

"Queen Mother," Margaery said, smiling widely as if she were delighted to see her. She let go of Sansa to give Cersei a hug that was not returned before going back to Sansa's side. "So wonderful to see you today, I had worried about your health after the state of the wine last night. Perhaps it was a bad batch, I shall have the royal stores inspected to ensure we never have an incident like that again."

"You are too kind," Cersei said with a tense smile. It was always her smile when Margaery was around. "Fortunately, you both look to be in good health. Good humor as well, I could hear Lady Sansa laughing from the other side of the castle."

"Pardon, Queen Regent," Sansa said, giving her a curtsy. "I learned last night that I am pregnant. I've been laughing near all morning, my mood is so good."

"Congratulations. Your first?" she asked, though she knew full well that this was the first time Sansa had gotten pregnant. She probably knew that Sandor was the first person she'd had sex with too, but Cersei was wrong on occasion.

"The first of many, I hope."

"I take it Ser Sandor is most pleased?"

"Indeed, your grace. He is not so obsessed with his legacy as I expected him to be though, he mostly seems to be happy that I am excited."

"He sounds like an ideal husband. I am pleased you've finally made your home here, Lady Sansa." She inclined her head towards Margaery again, then left, brushing past them.

Sansa wished there was someone around that she could ask what in seven hells was going on! Sandor was busy guarding that cunt of a king they had, and Margaery was dealing with business around the city, last Sansa had seen. The fact that no one in this city cared to share secrets with her anymore did not help. That being said, she would take not knowing what was going on over dealing with Little Finger any day.

The room was packed, more so than any other day when Joffrey held court. Every little lord or lady had shown up for this meeting and whatever it would entail. If it was an execution, Sansa wished someone would say it now and spare her that realization and experience since once had been quite enough for her life-- it didn't matter that most executions were held outside since Joffrey was breaking rules all the time and would certainly delight in making the servants scrub the floors until they were numb.

When the doors opened and men wearing not only northern armor but Stark branded armor walked in, she felt faint. There was a pillar at her side and she leaned into it heavily as the procession came all the way in. In the center was Jon. He was taller than she remembered, but maybe that was the great sword strapped to his side. His hair was longer, the top half of it tied back like Father used to do so it was out of his face. There was a neatly trimmed beard covering the bottom half of his face, but most importantly, there was a confidence to the way he held himself that had never been hinted at when they were children. Robb had had it, but Jon was the bastard of the family. He'd sunk into the background when possible, hunched in on himself when not. At his side and slightly behind, was Arya. She looked... like Jon. Taller and definitely older, all traces of baby fat gone from her face. Her hair wasn't as curly as Jon's but it was the same length and styled the same way. Instead of a great sword, she had a thin little thing at her waist, and Sansa didn't doubt it was sharp. Arya had never mastered how to walk like a lady, it had always been like she was running somewhere. She had the confidence of someone that knew how to protect themselves, and Sansa prayed she hadn't been hurt too much to learn that.

"Your Grace," Jon said respectfully, giving a small bow. Arya did not follow suit.

Joffrey was looking down at them, an expression on his face that meant if this didn't go well, he was going to have a temper tantrum. "Are we here to discuss the terms of your surrender?"

"You misunderstand, your grace. I'm here for two things, and you agreed to discuss them. It was my understanding that we would discuss them in private, not in front of your entire court."

Joffrey grit his teeth. "Speak or I will throw you out."

"Very well. I want you to relinquish the Iron Throne's claim to the north so we can be our own kingdom. We'll stop our attack, and you don't try to bring us under your control again."

If this had been a few years ago, Joffrey would have tried to order his men to kill them all. He still didn't have much in the way of restraint, so it was obvious that he was angry when he said, "What was your second request?"

"Sansa Stark," he said, and Sansa felt her heart stop then start again, double time. "She belongs in the north, we're here to take her home." Jon had phrased the first term more openly. He was requesting that the Iron Throne release them. This one he stated like they wouldn't be leaving the room without her.

"There is no Sansa Stark here," he said, eyes narrowing.

Arya looked over the masses, eyes finding Sansa easily. She quirked an eyebrow at her, and Sansa grinned. She glanced at Joffrey, then shrugged. It's not like Sansa could yell from her position that technically she was Sansa Clegane now, so she settled for that.

"We know that she is," Jon said, voice like steel. The two siblings that Sansa had always treated like grime, and here they were, come to save her. The truth was, if they hadn't come here for her, all they had to do was pull their troops back to Northern land and declare themselves free. The last person to successfully march on the north had had dragons, and for many generations, they had been loyal to the crown. They came here for her, and they weren't leaving without her. Sansa wondered if Joffrey even noticed that, or if he was too busy being offended at them trying to take a piece of 'his' kingdom.

"I'll think on it. Why don't you go back out to your little camp while I make my decision."

Jon bowed again before leaving, but this time, he kept his eyes straight on Joffrey, a clear challenge to his authority despite the subservient gesture. Arya winked at Sansa, then joined their brother and all the guards as they exited the hall, heads held high.

Sansa could feel people stare at her as soon as the doors closed, but she didn't care. She wasn't smiling now, and instead of staring at the doors with longing, she turned to watch her husband. Joffrey stomped off the throne and into the room behind it where they had their small council meetings. Sandor had to follow him, and with them gone, the crowd started to shuffle like leaves on a tree when the wind blew. Some of them left, and others stayed to see Margaery continue with business. Sansa stayed to the end like she always did when Margaery was sitting on the throne, and Margaery joined her as they left the building to take a short walk.

"How does your pregnancy find you? Any morning sickness?"

"Not today, and not in the past weeks either. I believe it is behind me, now. Thank the gods, I could hardly keep any food down."

They chatted idly until they had more privacy, and Margaery dropped her voice so it wouldn't carry past where they could see. "I have no intention of forcing your brother's hand," she said, tone more serious than Sansa had ever heard. "Tomorrow, we will welcome them into the city and discuss the situation as allies."

"You can convince Joffrey of that?" Sansa asked, voice equally low.

"I will take care of the king if you take care of his mother."

"I- Margaery- I don't know if I can-"

"I believe in you, Sansa." Margaery pressed a little vial into her hands. "It need not be messy. Cersei drinks more than a soldier, visit her with a plea to get her son to listen her or something, and then you are done."

"I'm not sure I can kill her."

"If you cannot, I need you to tell me now so I can make other arrangements." Margaery was always kind with Sansa. So kind and all she asked in return was Sansa's company.

Sansa had never killed anyone, had never even hurt someone. She thought of Cersei's claw around her arm, telling her to drink, saying vile things about sex, and standing there without lifting a finger when Father had been murdered. All of it made her angry, but only one of those was a good enough reason to do anything to her. Trying to kill Bran, mothering only bastard children to her brother instead of the king, and killing Ned Stark when he found out about it, those were reasons. If Margaery was telling her about this now, it meant that trial and imprisonment wasn't an option. Cersei was going to die tonight, and given the options, she knew what she had to do. Sansa stared at the bottle for a long moment, then tucked it in her dress.

In one hand, Sansa had a small bottle of milk of the poppy, and in the other, a dagger. Valyrian steel, though all Sansa knew about it was that it was more expensive than regular steel. "You know you will not make it out of this room alive." She held her hands up, displaying the items. "For all your choices have ruined my family, I respect you. You don't deserve to be dragged through the streets tomorrow like a victory boar. You can have one, and we can avoid all of that."

Cersei sneered at her. "Avoid it? Don't you remember when Stannis was attacking the capitol? I told you that a noble woman's fate at the end of a city under siege was always... unpleasant. Your little show here doesn't change that."

"It's your choice," Sansa said quietly.

"Perhaps my choices are not so limited as you think," Cersei said. Even now, Sansa was scared of her. Cersei was backed into a corner-- figuratively, not quite literally, not yet-- dressed only in her small clothes, and she still looked as poised and in control as she did when she was sitting atop the Iron Throne.

"You're right. I could always tell Sandor that you threatened to gut me like a deer. I imagine whatever he can think up would be much more painful than either of these."

"Do you think yourself a wolf, little dove?" It had been so long since Cersei had called her that. It used to fit her, but no longer. Maybe she wasn't a wolf yet either, but she was closer than she ever had been before. "Trying to show your teeth? You couldn't get your hands dirty if your life depended on it."

Sansa paused for a moment, then dropped her hands down to her side. "You're right. I don't know how to use this," she said, turning the knife to a less threatening position. She took a couple steps back and knocked on the door. She stepped to the side, and it opened. Sansa held the knife out to her, knowing that Arya was there wearing her own face. She wanted Cersei to know exactly who was doing this to her and why. "She does."

Arya was confident, every step the walk of a person that had killed foes twice as threatening as the former queen in front of them that had killed as many as Sansa herself. "Eddard Stark's legacy lives on. Who will remember you?" Arya asked. “I, Arya Stark, blood of the First Men and daughter of Eddard Stark, sentence you to die by order of Jon Stark, the King in the North, for unjust murder of our father.” She flipped the knife in her hand, and with one quick motion, a line of red across Cersei's throat. Blood stained the white fabric, and she died quickly, a hand at her throat as if she could stop it. There was a look of surprise on her face to the very end, like she couldn't believe all her games and shows of power hadn't been enough to save her in the end. Arya wiped the blood off on the bed's blanket, then snapped it back into place on her belt. "You're pregnant," she said, looking at Sansa. She’d noticed before, but it hadn’t been the time to talk about it.

"I am," she said numbly, looking at the still bleeding corpse. Cersei was certainly dead, but blood was still seeping out. She hadn't been expecting that for some reason. Cersei’s hair had always been golden and well groomed, but now the blood was streaming along it and making the colour impure. "Married, as well."

"I guessed as much." She gently took Sansa's arm and led her out of the room, closing the door behind her. "You look good. I was afraid they'd have you locked away in the dungeons dying from infection over the years."

"They never threw me in the dungeons. Joffrey always thought I was too entertaining for that, then he was married to Margaery and she convinced me to play nice as she mitigated his damages."

"Good."

Sansa couldn't help but look at her doubtfully.

"What?"

"Used to be that you would accuse me of liking it here and betraying our family."

"I used to be an idiot. So did you. Neither of us are who we used to be. Who's the father?"

"Sandor Clegane."

"The Hound?"

"The very same."

Arya didn't miss a step as they walked through the halls towards the entrance where they'd met up at the beginning of the night. "I can get rid of him for you."

"Don't. By the gods, Arya, do not."

"Er, okay? Feeling fond of dogs now? I know I said a lot changed, but I didn't think it had been this much."

"Believe it or not, I chose him. It was my idea to have a baby, as well. If you'd like to talk to him about it, I'm sure he'd be more than happy to complain about how mean I am to him with someone that could appreciate it."

"He can't complain to anyone else?"

"The only one it would be safe to complain to is Margaery, and her and Sandor don't exactly sit down for afternoon tea every day." The very thought was laughable, though entertaining.

"Do they ever talk?"

"Not as far as I know."

"I can't believe you finally did it," Arya said, shaking her head but a smile on her face. At Sansa's quizzical look, she elaborated, "Marry a high lord and have his beautiful children. It's not how I imagined it happening, but here you are."

"Not how I imagined it either; this is much better."

"I'll say. I hope you don't take this as a personal offence, but you're looking chubby around the edges, not just in your stomach."

"O...kay?"

"And you still look happier than I've ever seen you. You're fucking glowing, it's disgusting."

Sansa laughed, shoving her shoulder. "Do you think Jon would let me name my son after him?"

"You'd want to?" she asked, disbelief clear in her voice.

"I was always horrible to him when we were children and I regret it, but he's one of the strongest people I know. You are as well, but I don't think I'd like the justice the gods would give me for having a daughter named after you."

"Too wild for you?"

"Exactly. With Sandor as a father, I'm sure they won't need any help."

"'Sandor', gods Sansa I wonder if I'm ever going to get used to this."

"I hope so, I'd like for us to keep in touch when everything settles."

"Keep in touch? You mean you're not coming home?"

"I want to. I suppose it depends on how long all of this takes though. Could I-" she stopped, swallowing thickly. "Do you think Jon would want to see me?"

"I know he would."

"Could you... take me to him?"

"Too dangerous tonight. Unless you have another major secret for me, you're not any good at fighting."

Sansa made a face. "I think the first time I held a weapon was earlier tonight."

Arya nodded since that was what she'd expected. Sansa was strong, but she wasn't violent or aggressive. She was... like Mother, actually. Strong and poised in a way Arya had no hope of achieving; it just wasn't her, and trying to be that way had made her miserable when they were younger. "I'll talk to Jon, but you'll see him tomorrow."

"Sansa?" Jon asked. He seemed to be in a state of disbelief, like this was everything he'd wanted but didn't know how to deal with it now that it was happening.

"Jon!" Sansa ran, tackling him in a hug. She was bigger than him now. For some reason, she hadn't expected that, but she'd been taller than every other woman she'd met since she finished and they had no idea how tall his mother had been so she probably should have known. "It is so good to see you. I thought you'd been killed when the Bolton's were trying to take over Winterfell."

"Turns out Stark's are harder to kill than the rest of Westeros wants us to be," he said, hugging her back tightly. There was no way he didn't feel the swell of her stomach through the dress, and when they split apart, he looked down then back up at her face and raised an eyebrow.

Sansa couldn't help but grin. "You remember the Hound, right?"

"Tell me you're joking."

"I don't think she is," Arya chimed in. "I heard someone refer to her as Lady Clegane, and who else would marry him?"

"Sandor happens to be wonderful."

Arya snorted. "'Sandor is wonderful'," she said in high pitched voice meant to imitate her sister. "I'm sure he is, but seven hells, Sansa, couldn't you have made him change his name to Stark instead of the other way around? Going from a wolf to a hound is downgrading, no matter how great he is."

"I don't think I... can do that?" She glanced at Jon. "Could I?"

He shrugged. Not to make fun of him, but he looked kind of awkward now that he wasn't bursting with happiness. "I don't see why not. Assuming he'd go for it, that is."

"I get the feeling that if we give them one night alone, he'll be convinced."

"Arya," Jon chided, blushing.

"Oh please, you're fucking a wildling who's twice your size, we all know what's going on in your bed."

Sandor, who had seen them and started getting closer, slowed to a stop when he heard the last sentence, looking at the group like he wished he didn't know them simply because it would make his life easier. Sansa saw her husband and beamed, waving him over. "Sandor! Come meet my family."

After that, he didn't really have a choice but to finish walking to them, settling into place at Sansa's side. "We've met," he said shortly.

"Well you can meet them again as a member of the family instead of a part of the King's entourage. Oh that reminds me, how do you like Jon for a name for the baby?"

Jon's eyes went wide. "Please don't," he muttered.

At the same time, Sandor said, "I don't give a fuck."

Instead of being downtrodden by his lack of interest like Jon and Arya expected, Sansa brightened even further. "Good, that's settled."

"Don't I get a say," Jon said faintly, fully aware that no, he did not. At least, not one that mattered.

"You want to move up north," Sandor stated, and Sansa nodded.

"But we can talk about it later tonight."

Arya gave Jon a look as if to say 'I told you so'.

Sandor grumbled, "I hate the cold," like he too, knew exactly how that conversation was going to go.

Sansa just looped an arm through his and leaned into him. Everything had turned out... perfectly. That was a nice change.

#fanfic #got #sansan #sandor clegane #sansa stark #my writing

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vanimeldes · 5 years ago

Note

can you elaborate a bit what made you divorce from asoiaf/got as you say?

Ooof, so, after the G0T finale, I think my reasons should be obvious, but you also mentioned the books and yes, I lost my interest in books too and I will try to not make this answer too long, but in the same time, to convey all my thoughts on this matter.

*Putting it below cut because.... when I`ll explain the problem of Martin`s fans later, you`ll understand why*

It`s amazing that just a year ago, AS0IAF was my second favourite franchise ever, second only to Tolkien legendarium, but even then, I didn`t love it for the fantasy elements in it, but rather for its characters and some twists and how Martin does forshadowing and writes the dualistic nature of the human being, but...as I read other fantasy series that do these four things AND have fantasy elements, I paused a bit and thought that these series would be just as popular, if they had popular adaptations such as G0T. But I got that AS0IAF was the first that had the opportunity to be adapted and I accepted that. Yet the show highlighted (and in some cases, amplified) some of the very big issues of these books and yes, D&D have many things to be blamed of, but it`s not as if they didn`t have a basis for their fuckery in the books. Martin is just as guilty. So here we go.

1. I am not sure if Martin has ever seen a 13 year old girl, but he writes grown-ass men having fixations and being sexually attracted by Daenerys and Sansa, two prepubescent girl. Martin would call it the gritty realism of the medieval times, but last time I checked, he was writing fantasy, not historical fiction. Fantasy means you can do what you want in your world, so even if you are inspired by the medieval times, it`s still YOUR fictional world and no one will question your research or accuracy if you want to have a female character married when she is at least, say, 18, not FUCKING 13. Not to mention that even in our real world, child brides existed but, guess what, in most the cases, both spouses waited until the wife reached a certain age (16 or older) to consummate their marriage. @eyes-painted-with-kohl explained in the notes of one of my posts and even gave an example or two. I can think of Isabella of France and Edward II. They were married when she was 13 (according to some historical evidence)/16 (according to others). Yes, I know he was homosexual, but he still needed heirs, so they still had children...4 years later, when she was 17/20.

2. In this same vein, the treatment of his female characters (with the exception of Arya and, maybe Catelyn) is egregious. Daenerys and Sansa are sexualized by the male characters (don`t get me started of the bullshit that is S/ansan, because The Hound is still a murderous man who is aroused by a 12 year-old girl, who invaded her personal space and even pointed a knife to her; do not get me started on book!Jorah, who is a creep). Cersei is paraded naked on the streets and needless to say that during the walk of atonement for an adulterous woman in medieval times, she was never stripped naked; she only had her hair shaved and walked BAREFOOT. That`s it. What Martin did to Cersei is just disgusting. We are shown how Arianne uses sex to have Ser Arys help with her plans and it is implied that Margaery uses sex also. I get that sex is Cersei`s mechanism, but you have two more feminine (this is important) women in power and both of them explicitly use, or are implied to use sex as a mean to gain that power. I get Brienne`s point, her treatment bothers me the least, but it`s annoying from time to time how most of the other characters see only her ”ugliness” and nothing else. Of course, this is the result of the heavy patriarchy in Westeros world that I will discuss in the next paragraph.

3. The heavy patriarchy in Westeros world is nowhere similar to the patriarchy in the medieval times, and that was Martin`s choice and his only. A clear example is what was dubbed the Dead Ladies Club, namely a group of dead female characters whose only purpose was to serve as object of desire for one or more men, to give birth AND to die (gruesomely in some cases). Joanna Lannister is meant only to further fuel the enmity between Tywin and Aerys and Tywin`s hatred towards Tyrion. Elia exists solely to die gruesomely and motivate Doran`s desire for vengeance. Lyanna (the most explored dead lady still exists mainly to give birth to Jon and to be one of the reasons behind a war started by men. Rhaella exists solely to be raped by Aerys and give birth and die. Ashara Dayne exists solely to commit suicide. Ned, a POV character, spends chapters thinking about his father and siblings and never to his mother. Martin had the audacity to say that Tolkien himself didn`t left notes about Aragorn`s mother, but Tolkien had an entire story when Aragorn`s mother and her impact of his life is explored (more than his father, for that matter). The heavy patriarchy serves as reason for the utterly disgusting right of the first night (read Fire & Blood for more). I am not so versed into history as @mydaylightruyi who discussed this, but I too know that in our real world, this practice was a MYTH. But GRRM made it very present in his world because of reasons I guess.

4. The racism is just rampant and disgusting and even I didn`t notice all the racism until I read @polysorscha `s insights. There`s a to be discussed here, mainly about the portrayal of the Dothraki and how they are reduced to barbaric rapists - interestingly, they are supposedly inspired by Huns, but guess what: the Huns formed a very permisive society, where any religion and culture had its places, where women were very respected and, while cruel in the European people`s POV, were never....like THIS.

5. The rape cultures. The Ironborn. Similarly to the Dothraki, their culture is reduced to pillaging and rape. That scene when Euron conquers that castle in the Reach ( I forgot its name) and how he had the daughters of that lord stripped naked and serve his men the meal, and how his men started raping them was....honestly, I wish I could have skipped this chapter. I still read fantasy books written by men more than I read fantasy books written by women, but never in my life did it occur to me to read something like this in a novel that is so hailed for fantasy (?) and realism (???????). I`m not saying that things like that didn`t happen in our cruel history but, again, Martin writes a fictional story. He could choose not to include the rampant violence against women, cultures whose practices are reduced to this utterly gross things, racist and orientalist elements, but he chooses not to. Why? I don`t know. I am not sure I want to know. And Victarion`s POV...oh boy. Or Theon, in ACOK, when he literally rapes that Kyra girl after takes Winterfell. Not only that it`s very disturbing, especially coming from a character that is supposed to be redeemed in some way (yes, I know how he`s been through in ADWD and I also know this is meant to be his redemption arc, but I personally still can`t get over this). And in the same time, while we`re still at the redemption discussion, Theon will surely undergo a redemption of some sorts, Cersei (a female character) will most likely be killed by her lover/brother, who will strangle her to death, most likely while he will embrace her, without a second chance of a droplet of redemption.

6. I love Tyrion and I love Tywin but in the same time, I acknowledge their misogyny, but Martin chose to write them as misogynists, but in the same time, writing them in such ways that they are inherently labelled as „badass”. He also says that Tyrion is his favourite, but his POV is utterly misogynistic. The reason he kills Shae is because she dared to sleep with his father, but let`s unpack the things a bit: she was a former sex worker with no power, who was forced by the most powerful man in Westeros. She had no choice. She couldn`t refuse him. Yet, for Tyrion, she is ”the lying whore” and that`s it. We are given no chance to try to see the things from her POV (I am not implying that she should have been a POV character, but Martin should have written Tyrion considering for a moment what other choices Shae had).

7. I discovered that Martin straightly ripped-off many plot points and themes from another series who isn`t half as popular, sadly.

8. Last, but not the least, the snake pit that is THE FANDOM. You know, as much as I tried to stay away from its toxicity because „it`s just an internet thing, it can`t affect me”, it did affect my online experience in ways that I hadn`t imagined. To sum up, if you don`t like a character or hate another, you are a pariah. You are dumb because you don`t understand that character or you are a misogynist (because, sadly, this discourse is mostly about the female characters). If you dare to voice up your thoughts about a certain event and/or a certain character and tag your post as #asoiaf or #asoiaf meta (you know, because this is it to me: a meta; plus, I want to have an ordering system in my blog so that whenever I want to look for a certain post in a certain topic or fandom, I would only look into the tag) or #my meta (highlighted „MY” because this is also important, as in it`s MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION), and those thoughts happen to not fit into the general consensus of the „great AS0IAF bloggers” (namely those meta writers with many followers who sound like they already read TWOW and ADOS), you are trashed and called an idiot. Granted, I met enough great people, meta writers included, in this fandom, and it was a real pleasure to chat with them, but I also had bad experiences with others and idk, I thought we were all mature people, but the way they reacted can hardly be described as mature. And in the same point, it`s just funny to see the hardcore Martin stans reacting in front of the clear evidence that Martin isn`t half as original as they thought (see 7) and acting like they are personally attacked.

Ok, it took me an hour. There is a lot more to discussed, but I got bored and I honestly want to shut the door to this fandom forever. To answer another question, yes, I will be reading the last two books if when they will come out. I invested many months in this series not to finish it. I`ll probably block all the ASOIAF-related tags to avoid any interaction with its fandom during those times.

#ask #anonymous #asoiaf criticism #grrm criticism #anti grrm #yes i tagged this as such #any hater will be blocked

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7deadlycinderellas · 5 years ago

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if the summer of our lives could just come again, ch14

Ao3 link

King’s Landing

It’s barely at all into the second year of autumn when Myrcella leaves for Dorne.

Sansa had been upset. Myrcella had been the closest thing she had made to a friend in King’s Landing. Myrcella hadn’t been entirely happy about it either.

“I’ve never even met this Trystane. He could be awful and I wouldn’t know until I’m stuck there.”

Sansa hugs her multiple times. It’s all she can feel like doing. She can’t tell Myrcella how much she understands. Maybe she will someday.

“You’re smarter than you look, and braver than you think. Remember that,” is what she tells her. They’re all by the docks, waiting to say farewell.

Lord Tyrion has positioned himself off to the side, by Ned and Sansa, with Tommen and Jamie acting as a barrier between them and Cersei. It’s a defensive posture.

Myrcella waves until they can’t see her anymore. She doesn’t cry. Even if she had wanted to, part of her mind is a bit relieved.

“I take it your sister wasn’t happy about your suggestion?” Sansa asks Tyrion, waving, her face held completely straight.

“To say Cersei wasn’t happy is like Flea Bottom doesn’t reek.”

Sansa smiles weakly at that. Despite her internal struggle to agree with Cersei about anything, she understands her distaste for this. Shipping her only daughter off to marry a man she has never met. While she has come to understand the game of thrones, she has become completely disdainful of many of its movements.

“I suppose she was upset, thinking that was all your idea?”

He turns to look at her.

“It’s not the first time our Grace has ever brought up betrothing his daughter to secure an alliance. He’s always been wary of Dorne. And it’s not like my sister would have ever believed you had suggested it.”

Sansa feels some shame at that. Ned had told her one night that Myrcella’s hand was being discussed with a new degree of seriousness, and she had taken a deep breath, and made her suggestion.

And now the result of that act is happening in front of you. She waves as the boat drifts away.

And this time, it’s not followed by a riot. Whatever King Robert’s flaws, he is not nearly as quick to bloodlust as Joffrey.

The next few days, finding herself alone in the gardens, is when Myrcella’s absence really sinks in.

She’s been examining the board before her, when Tyrion’s shadow creeps onto it. Even before he sits, she finds herself smiling.

“Please tell me you’ll spare me a game or two?” she asks.

He beats her narrowly the first time, and they’re in the middle of the second bout when she finally breaks her silence.

“You’ve never asked me...about anything that I told you.”

He raises an eyebrow, his face carefully hiding his emotions.

“You mean how a young girl somehow managed to not only become privy to one of the few great secrets in my life, but who also is somehow able to have had such a sudden change in demeanor and seem to have such uncanny insights into other people’s motivations and thoughts?”

She’s never really thought about it like that.

“I knew the name of the man Myrcella was betrothed to before. I’m not sure how the actual engagement went, but in the end, it didn’t end well for either of them. I also knew that it was over a year ago that it happened. And I know that before, it was you who suggested it, to help keep Myrcella from the viper’s nest that is this entire city.”

Her face turns pensieve.

“I don’t even know if she liked him or not. I know they both died though. Maybe they won’t this time.”

“Maybe you won’t be forced into whatever position ended with my brother or father laying my greatest shame on you.”

Sansa feels her stomach twist at his words. She knows that the topic is a deeply sensitive one for him.

“It wasn’t either of them, you told me yourself.”

He scoffs, and Sansa feels cold run through her, and a tiny bit of anger.

“The last time I was in King’s Landing, I had lost nearly everything and spent my days terrified of making a single mistake. You showed my kindness in those days, the only bit of kindness I got that didn’t have a string on it. I know you don’t think highly of yourself, but you shouldn’t be deluded enough to think that no one else does, and that things you do would mean nothing.”

She stands and leaves, trying not to huff. It’s not fair, and she knows it, but she can’t help feeling this way.

Soon after Myrcella leaves, Littlefinger returns. Sansa’s stomach crawls into itself when she watches him.

“He certainly is good at playing people. “ Ned tells her one night over supper.

“Do I even want to know what he’s going on about now?” Sansa asks him, sounding tired.

Ned sighs,

“He’s going on about Robert’s poor health. Keeps asking me if I think Joffrey could handle ruling on his own now, or if he needs a regent.”

Sansa reaches out and grabs her father by the arm.

“Don’t take his bait,” she says through gritted teeth. “He tricked you with that before, and betrayed you, making you look a traitor.”

It likely wouldn’t work now anyway, Joffrey’s older than then, and in fact, he is about to come of age officially.

Joffrey comes of age, so of course, there has to be a celebration. Word goes out of a tourney King Robert is putting on, with seven straight days of events, with a dance at the end of the week.

Littlefinger comes up with the money, of course.

The guests begin to arrive very soon before the event, and Sansa sticks closely to her father as they watch them.

There’s a few she recognizes, Sam’s sister Talla for one, but most of them are women from southern houses she’s not too familiar with.

When she sees Margaery Tyrell among them, she smiles and sighs inwardly. She really will have to find a way to warn her of Joffrey’s nature.

“Strangely enough, I feel like she might truly be able to handle him if she is properly prepared. She always knew exactly how to make people react to her the way she wanted.”

“Do you consider her a friend?”

“I...don’t actually know,” Sansa admits, “She’s extremely manipulative, but her manipulations tended to make things better for everyone. I don’t know what her opinions on things actually were, and I don’t know what she really wanted out of life.”

“If she’s as canny as you say, perhaps we should try and convince her to marry Robb.”

Sansa snorts.

“Robb’s too much like you. She would eat him alive.”

And to double the fun, Stannis and Renly both also come for the celebration.

Even on the sidelines, Sansa can watch as her father’s stress levels skyrocket with the three brothers in the same room.

Sansa is overjoyed at two of the accompanying faces though. Among the small group of guards Renly brings with him is Lady Brienne. And he brought Shireen with him as well, wanting her to see the royal court.

It’s heartwarming, her seeing her father after nearly three years too. Watching him happily embrace the girl, Sansa nearly forgets her end.

Shireen’s thirteen now, as old as she was when she was burned.

She greets Sansa eagerly though,

“Ser Davos told me about you in the letters he wrote me from Winterfell. It’s been a while though, I should write and tell him I miss him.”

The lack of contact from Davos has her terribly worried, but Sansa can’t let that on. Shireen switches subjects quickly enough though.

“I’ve never been to one of these tourneys though, you’ll have to walk me through it.”

And there is little enough enjoyment in Sansa’s life, so she takes it in stride.

Shireen sits with her during the jousts and melee, and Sansa tries to explain everything to her. There’s no bloodshed this time, even the Mountain manages to restrain himself. He still makes her stomach turn even by standing around though.

She helps Shireen with her gown for the dance too. Her own dress is soft pink and decorated with rosettes. It’s a bit childish for a woman of sixteen, but she doesn’t want to catch anyone’s eye.

It nearly works.

She stays close to Shireen as she watches the others gather and dance.

King Robert is already drinking heavily. He still looks quite yellow, and his abdomen is beginning to swell. It’s obvious to many of the onlookers that he is not well, but he seems to be enjoying himself.

Joffrey’s on his best behavior, as she remembers him being at the tourney back before. Margaery Tyrell has maneuvered a place on his arm with expertise, and her sweet, loud voice and perfect manners keep him in line. Cersei is already skulking behind them, consumed, but no one is paying her any mind tonight. It’s nearly time for the crown prince to be married of course.

Sansa dances a few times, once with Shireen to help her overcome her shyness. Many of the others balk at her face, but there are few enough young men here for her to dance with anyhow. Sansa dances once with Tommen as well, before handing him off to Shireen as well, both of them walking onto the dance floor clumsily.

They still think they’re cousins, Sansa thinks to herself, watching them.

“No one catching your eye?”

Sansa’s blood freezes in her veins at the sound of Littlefinger’s voice.

“I know they say I’m grown, but I still feel so young,” she insists.

“Nonsense. You’re the spitting image of your mother when she was wed. All those many years ago” his voice is dripping with something, and with a start, Sansa realizes he’s been drinking, and desperately wishes to get away. He stares off into space for a moment, and Sansa takes the chance to stand and bolt.

She’s lucky enough to bump into Lord Tyrion at the table, refilling his wine goblet. He barely has a chance to open his mouth before she grabs his hand.

“Dance with me,” she says commandingly.

When he tries to gesture at his wine goblet, she rolls her eyes.

“You can’t be that drunk, you’re still standing. You’re an expert at it after all.”

She pulls him onto the dance floor and spies Littlefinger’s head lolling, belying that he was a bit drunker than she thought.

“Thank you. If I wasn’t careful, I feared Lord Baelish over there was going to forget I’m not actually my mother.”

Sansa’s grown a bit in King’s Landing, nearly her full height, and she supposes the two of them must make a comical pair. She hears a few snickers from the crowd, and it lights a fire of anger in her.

“Don’t give them the satisfaction,” she tells him through clenched teeth.

“Coming to the aid of your hero of the evening?” he asks, words dripping with sarcasm.

She feels her nostrils flare before she answers.

“Not all heroes are tall and gallant. Not all maidens are sweet and fair.” she spares Littlefinger another glance, “And not all monsters have horns and teeth.”

Winterfell

It’s in the second year that the wildling refugees begin to trickle in more quickly. Most of them come south on boats, or via Eastwatch-by-the-sea. Not many are making it through the wall. Winterfell can only take so many, so ravens come and go to have them moved around.

It’s decided that only the children and least hostile can be allowed to stay in the keeps and serve. There have already been fights breaking out at the Last Hearth and Deepwood Motte involving the ones who have been serving there. Many have already ended up in chains.

The ones who fight the most, are the ones Robb decides to send to the Dreadfort. He calls to seek guards and swordsmen to accompany them.

“I am reminding you that these men are not prisoners who may sit idle. They will train to defend the north along with us and to fortify us for the winter to come.”

Catelyn nods with approval at his words. Sansa’s suggestion of allowing the free folk to settle in the Gift sits in the back of her mind. It’s a good idea, but the Gift is under control of the Night’s Watch, and word from the wall ranges from confusion to hostility towards their action.

And getting word to or from the wall has been becoming more and more difficult. The long time gaps between getting word from Davos eats at them all.

It’s enough that Bran sends one of his ravens, Quinta, the smallest, to try and find them.

“They fled Castle Black. Mormont is still nominally in charge and seems willing to listen, but there’s dissent and mutiny all over. Many will disregard any of his orders, and raiding parties have been attacking on the regular,” Bran tells them, when Quinta makes her journey.

“Where are they even going?” Robb wants to know. If the Night’s Watch goes against their goals, it could be disastrous.

Mid-year, the first group of the refugees are set to be moved to the Dreadfort. And they need to see how they are working out.

Arya’s pile of faces is small, but versatile. There’s that first wildling man she killed in the woods. A serving woman who passed after being kicked by a horse. A young wildling girl who died soon after reaching Winterfell of speckled fever. It’s enough. She’s confident enough.

And so she volunteers.

There’s yelling of course, and wheedling. But no one else has the skill to blend in like she has.

The night before their set to leave, Arya goes to find Gendry in the forge. When he sees her, he drops his tools.

They sit on the bench, and he holds her so tightly she wonders if she might break.

“I don’t like it,” Gendry whispers into her hair, “Not just the you putting yourself into danger thing, the part where you’re going to have to go among prisoners like we did on the way to Harrenhal.”

Arya laughs roughly.

“At least I know how to do it. Curse, spit, keep to myself. Hope that that wildling I killed is intimidating enough that I don’t have to fight too many of them to make them leave me be.”

She reaches and touches his neck gently.

“I learned plenty about how to be a grouchy loner from you.”

They lean together and kiss, far more tenderly than they have since before. The fire in Arya’s belly that has started to spark back to life roars momentarily, and it takes all her strength to drag herself away.

In the morning, they all gather in Catelyn’s chambers to quietly say goodbye. She gets hugs from everyone, so many it feels like a lineup.

“Do me a favor?” she asks Meera, “Don’t let Gendry stay in the forge alone all the time. He turns into a right proper bastard if you don’t make him be social.”

That earns her a chuckle.

When she reaches Gendry, Arya thinks she can feel her mother’s eyes bore through the back of her head, watching them together. She wonders if there’s going to end up being fights over this.

“You’ll be careful right? Well as much as you know how anyhow.” Gendry’s keeping his voice even, but she can hear the fear.

“Be a real shame to end this run before the end wouldn’t it?”

She makes everyone watch as she dons her face. Despite the looks of horror from all of them, she needs them to know. The wildling is an ugly fucker, with broken teeth and hands that seem to be made entirely of scars. No one will see Arya Stark, even if she acts a bit like herself.

She slips among the prisoners, in her leg irons, and grumbles and spits perfectly in character.

Bran has sent all his ravens out before the end of the year. Una, Dosa, Tresn, Quatri, Quinta, Suxen and Septima. All of them have made their journeys. It’s a good distraction for him, from worrying about his sisters while he’s still at home.

Septima is the one who makes the first journey all the way over the wall. She hadn’t been able to learn anything useful, as Bran had been wary of having her fly too close and be noticed in a land where wargs are known to be a very real thing, but still. She made it.

And so, near the end of the year, Bran gets ambitious.

“You really think she can make it all the way to Essos?” Jojen asks him.

“I know she can make it,” Bran insists, ruffling Septima’s feathers. “I’m more worried about her getting back or getting lost. “

“What is there to find in Essos?”

There’s a long pause.

“Oh, right, you told me about the dragon queen.”

Bran rubs Septima’s head one last time, before letting her go. He remembers, vividly, even as his other visions fade, of the dive that Daenarys had taken into the valley in the Wolfswood that had been overwhelmed by the wights of an ancient battlefield, ready to march upon a whole mountainside filled with clan villages.

The dragonfire had taken them out, but the forest went up in flames, and the queen along with it. Fire may not be able to kill a dragon, but it’s hard to stay on the back of one when it’s surrounding you.

“So much of what happens during and after could be altered completely by her, but we don’t really know anything that happened to her, or could have changed.”

Bran watches Septima take flight, before turning to Jojen.

“Come on, it’s almost suppertime.”

Jojen tilts his head in one direction.

“You should go get Meera. I told her about a vision I had last night, and I think I must have upset her. She went off into the glass garden by herself, and I haven’t seen her come out.”

Confused as to what sort of vision could have upset her that Jojen also wouldn’t have told the rest of them about, Bran takes his advice.

The glass gardens were built over one of the hot springs that ran closest to the surface. It kept the ground warm well through winter, and allowed for a well that drew up fresh water just where it was needed, cooled by the air. It housed all sorts of plants, vegetables, fruit and flowers. Though now that winter was coming, the only ornamental plants left were a single bush of blue roses by one of the doors. Every other inch of space is taken up by cascading plants in pots and troughs, and barrels, vines twisting up poles to the ceiling, spaced neatly to walk between.

He finds Meera, sitting on the ground between a barrel overflowing with yam vines and a trough full of winter greens.

“Hey,” he starts, sitting carefully beside her, laying his cane on the ground. There’s barely enough room for them both. “You’ll miss supper.”

She says, “It’s fine,” and is silent for a bit, so he continues, “What did Jojen tell you about?”

“Just that father’s ill again. That injury he took at the Tower of Joy never really healed and sometimes it flares up and causes him pain. And it wasn’t really that, I just needed some time to myself.”

Meera stretches out on her back as so to have more room, and plays with the end of a potato vine. She’s told him before that she likes the glass gardens, because fresh food is so important to the way of life in the Neck. He remembers her telling him before about how the swamps would drown anything in the ground that wasn’t rice, and how someone in her grandfather’s day had figured out that some vegetables could be grown in piles of straw upon the boats and crannogs.

“I like it out here,” she adds, as though reading his mind, “It’s always warm. I can’t concentrate, or sleep for that matter, when I’m cold. It makes my mind think it needs to be constantly on alert.”

He lays out beside her. It’s easy in this position, to realize how much he’s grown, he’s taller than her now. Rather than improve it though, the disparity between the length of his legs has only gotten worse with his growth, and it has become clear that the bone hasn’t healed properly, and even with the metal bits Gendry has hammered into his shoes, he still walks with one leg duck-footed.

“I wanted to take you home,” she blurts out at one point, “After everything was done. The swamp ground is too dangerous to walk very far, so we use boats a lot. You don’t need your legs to row, and we could prop you up if you needed it, and I thought…”

Her words drift off, and he lets her be. Part of him feels like he’s already been to the Neck just from the stories she has told him.

“Look,” she says, interrupting her previous words, pointing at the glass ceiling, “It’s snowing.”

It is, and the snowflakes falling on the glass roof are beautiful. Lying back and watching, he is transported back to the nights in the cave when the Raven would let him go free, and they would lay in the dark, talking about anything and everything.

He feels Meera’s head brush his shoulder softly, and he remembers all of her stories. About how she speared her first frog when she was five. How the slender, three pronged spear was actually called a gig, but calling it that elsewhere made people look at her like she was stupid. How she hated mushrooms because they tasted like cold, late winter foraging.

How in the world could he have ever given this up?

With that thought, he suddenly jerks upward, and rubs his eyes, realizing he must have fallen asleep. Meera’s head slips, and he hears her yawn, and realizes she must have drifted off as well.

And with a start, mirrored by her sitting up and suddenly stiffening, realizes it’s become very dark, and is probably pretty late.

“Go,” he says, shoving the side of her arm, “I’ll stay out a little longer. If anyone wonders why, I’ll just say I wanted to check on Septima. I think I’ll actually do that anyway.”

“You actually sent her to Essos?” Meera asks, standing.

He nods. She moves to leave, and looks back at him just once.

The air between them is thick.

Bran lets his mind slide into Septima’s, just long enough to see her flying true towards the Narrow Sea, wondering what she will find on the other side.

Over the Wall

“So you’re actually some sort of chosen one? Maybe you really were just being stupidly honorable and not just stupid when you didn’t cut off my head. I was actually wondering before if maybe you were really awful with your sword and had just missed…”

It’s the end of the day, and Jon is really beginning to tire of Ygritte’s nattering. It’s been her go to activity since they joined with Rowan.

It’s been months they’ve been at it. Walking through the snow, foraging for food, and sleeping in caves that Rowan seems to be able to find the locations of with the drop of a head.

Her story, that he was some kind of prince that was promised, and that the knowledge she hoped to pass to him would help defeat the Night King and the army of the dead. It was outlandish, but here he was, following along.

“Are we nearly there?” he asks Rowan, hoping to interrupted Ygritte’s spiel. They’re still walking, but it’s nearly time to stop to eat. Gilly’s baby, whom she still hasn’t decided on a name for, is beginning to get fussy.

“The illusion of the last weirwood should be easy enough to come by,” Rown assures, and then they continue on walking.

Ygritte sidles up to him as they walk. She had taken the whole abduction thing in stride, commenting that she was always up for an adventure.

“Still not taking me up on my offer? It’s still an offer if you do, most women would love the chance to fuck a chosen one.”

She hasn’t let up on that either. And honestly, it’s hard to keep telling her no. She’s not traditionally pretty, to be sure, but she’s full of life, and that means a lot. And in this shared experience of shared abduction, they might almost be becoming friends.

But he does have how vows, even though he hasn’t seen Castle Black in nearly a year.

“Still no.”

She shakes her head.

“Maybe you’ll change your mind once we’re not moving all the time. You’ll be less beat.”

Ahead of them, he sees Gilly stop short and make a noise. Rowan rushes up beside her, at the edge of a ridge, and hears her deep, wise voice say,

“We’ve arrived.”

Over the ridge is the biggest weirwood tree Jon has ever seen. The sun breaks through the clouds behind it, making it’s red, five pointed leaves look as though they are afire.

“Step carefully,” Rowan cautions. “This ground is very old.”

They follow her lead.

They don’t get very far before the land is disturbed, and the first figure bursts through the snow.

The only of them who is truly unarmed is Gilly, so they try and put her to the middle of them. Jon still clings to Longclaw, which Rowan had looked at approvingly. When they’d passed through an abandoned village, Ygritte had managed to scavenge herself an axe. The fact that Jon trusts her with it when he sleeps is a testament to how bizarre this whole thing has become. The other women carry a multitude of scavenged and improvised weaponry, from Jyna’s heavy cooking pan down to Henneh’s fireplace poker.

Jon takes out one, and beside him, Henneh knocks down a few others. It seems almost workman like, especially when Rowan reaches under her cloak to retrieve the small, ignitable projectiles that actually keep the wights down.

Rowan steps in front of the group,

“This way,” she tells them, leading them to an opening in the base of the tree.

“Once we’re all down here,” she says, letting Gilly come down first, “They won’t be able to get to us.”

Jon holds back, and lets the others go first, knocking down every wight that gets near. It’s just him and Ygritte, when he hears her hollar, “Duck!” and listens without a second thought.

Unfortunately, the wight that swung from behind at him knocks Ygritte just hard enough for her to stumble and hit her head against the trunk of the tree. She staggers a bit and Jon grabs her by the hand tugs her into the cave.

When they’re safely inside, he notes there’s a bit of blood dripping from her scalp.

“What is this place?” he asks Rowan.

“This used to be the last stand of the Children of the Forest. Now it is a crypt, but it will do enough for shelter for the time.”

They all step inside, getting their bearings. Jon stops to ask Ygritte,

“Is your head alright?”

She nods, but is looking at him strangely. Her brow is furrowed, and it takes her a long moment before her words come.

“Jon,” she starts, her voice strangely soft. There’s not a mocking bit in her voice at all, and she rarely misses a chance to call him by his full name. “Jon, I don’t think I’m supposed to still be alive.”

#game of thrones #A Song of Ice and Fire #gendrya #breera #sanrion #time travel fix it #jongritte

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cbrownjc · 6 years ago

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Interpretation of Prophecy in ASOIAF/GOT

First, to give credit: this meta doesn’t come strictly from me. The Youtube channel Talking Thrones posted a video that talks in a few of the same directions I write about here; and @oadara and I discussed a lot of this between us over DM, so much of this comes out of that as well.

So there are two main prophecies most people focus on when it comes to ASOIAF/GOT, which are:

- The prophecy that Maggy the Frog gave to Cersei when she was a girl.

- The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai prophecy that talks of a coming hero who will save the world from the coming darkness.

First, let’s look at what George R. R. Martin himself says about prophecies, particularly in fantasy fiction:

Prophecy is a staple element in fantasy, but it’s tricky,” Martin noted. “You want to play with the notion of prophecies coming true but in an unexpected way. You want to be unpredictable about it. Shakespeare is the ultimate example of that—when the forest of Birnam Wood coming to Dunsinane Castle, MacBeth will fall. Everybody laughs—how can the forest come to the castle. [Malcolm] came camouflaged with branches and so on. Also, during the War of the Roses, one of the lords was prophesized that he would die at a certain castle. So he always took pains to avoid that castle. But then in the first The Battle of St Albans, he was wounded and died outside a pub that had that castle on its pub sign. You have to look at prophecies carefully and look at the weasel-wording.

(George R. R. Martin, Entertainment Weekly, 04/12/2015)

Martin is specifically talking about two types of prophecies here in the examples he gives: the self-fulfilling prophecy and the non-literal prophecy.

I think it has become more and more clear that Cersei’s prophecy that she received from Maggy the Frog is headed in the style of a self-fulfilling prophecy. That Cersei, in actively trying to prevent the prophecy from happening, has inevitably caused it to happen.

Leaving aside the Valonqar part of the prophecy for now, (since the show left it out too), one point of it that people continue to argue over is who the Younger, More Beautiful Queen part of this prophecy refers to. However, in a way, it is actually unimportant. Because with a self-fulfilling prophecy, the YMBQ could have been anyone. Or, at least, any girl who had a realistic chance of becoming Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. There was never one designated person it was destined to be. Which means Sansa, Margaery, Daenerys and, adding in the books, you can probably place Arianne Martell in the group as well, each could have been the YMBQ. The important part is/was how Cersei reacted to the threat of each of these women to BE the YMBQ, NOT who the woman actually was. Because again, it could have been any one of them.

For those who know Harry Potter, it is very much in line with Voldemort hearing that the person who can defeat him will be born “as the seventh month dies.” As HP book readers know, there were two boys born at the end of July - Harry Potter and Neville Longbottom. It was Voldemort himself who picked Harry as the Chosen One when he went to kill him in Godric’s Hollow on that Halloween night. However, it could have just as easily not been Harry if Voldemort had picked and gone to kill Neville instead. Voldemort chose his rival, not fate or destiny.

I think the YMBQ part of Cersei’s prophecy is the same type of self-fulfilling prophecy that we see in Harry Potter, where Voldemort chose his rival, but with a slight twist. With Sansa and Margaery both, Cersei recognized them as threats, as the potential YMBQ of the prophecy she got, and worked to neutralize them as such in any way she could think of. However, the YMBQ has very likely become the person who Cersei didn’t think of as a threat and work to stop from being one until it was actually too late: Daenerys. (Though I do think Arianne Martell still might have chance to be this in the books in some way, even possibly jointly along with Daenerys, since we don’t know the direction Arianne’s story will go in relation to Cersei in the books). One of the underlying story threads of both the books and the show is how no one in Westeros is paying/paid all that much attention to Dany and the possible threat she poses, particularly to the Lannisters . . . and possibly to Cersei herself. Not until it’s looking to be too late to really do anything about it. Not until A Dance with Dragons at least, (as far as the books go), when it is now possibly too late to stop her from being one.

Which makes the scene in the show of Joffrey of all people recognizing the threat she is so early on drip with irony. (Start at 1:42)

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Cersei chose who the YMBQ was, by not choosing to see the threat one of the candidates presented to her. Like Voldemort did, Cersei has/is choosing the instruments of her own destruction, and making the prophecy come true, especially by living her life actively engaging with her prophecy and trying to prevent it.

And from the little we know of him via the books and lore, this appears to have also been Rhaegar Targaryen’s downfall as well, actively engaging and living his life based on a prophecy. However, in Rhaegar’s case, the prophecy doesn’t look to be self-fulfilling so much as being a non-literal prophecy. Non-literal prophecies are way more tricky to engage in and with, and may actually lead to the event that the prophecy says is destined to be stopped.

We see a version of this type of prophecy (awkwardly done) in the Star Wars prequels. “Anakin Skywalker is destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to The Force.” Which yes, Anakin did destroy the Sith; but only after he helped the Sith to destroy the Jedi and became a Sith Lord himself. (Which then brought balance to the force after he killed Palpatine and then he - as Vader - died as well because then the only one left was Jedi Luke, I guess? Again, I said it was awkwardly done, not perfectly done). So yes, if you look at that prophecy literally, Anakin Skywalker did destroy the Sith. It was just the nature of why and how this prophecy would come to be true and be fulfilled that was what was missing: that Anakin would help to wipe out the Jedi first BEFORE destroying the Sith.

A better example of this, with the weasel-wording technique used that Martin mentions above, is another example from the Shakespeare play Macbeth, and the character of Macduff. Macbeth is told by the three witches that “no man of woman born” can kill him, so Macbeth goes though the play thinking that he can not be killed by any man. Turns out, however, that Macduff was actually born via a medieval version of a c-section:

And let the angel whom thou still hast served Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother’s womb Untimely ripped

So Macduff technically wasn’t “born” in the traditional sense as known of at that time. And so yes, Macduff is the one who ultimately kills Macbeth.

And I think that is that type of prophecy - one of non-literal interpretation - is what we are looking at when it comes to the prophecy in ASOIAF/GOT about The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai.

Let me start by pointing out: there is no Night King in the books. In the lore of the world there is a Night’s King (possessive S), who was this guy:

The 13th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. Bran mentions him in A Storm of Swords, and The World of Ice and Fire talks about him as well. It is said that he was a Stark, possibly the brother of the then-current King of Winter. In brief, his story was thus: he saw a woman for atop the wall one night "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars." He fell in love with her even though "her skin was cold as ice" and, when he gave her his seed, he gave her his soul as well. With her, he claimed the Nightfort as his castle and declared himself as King and her his Queen. There, he ruled for 13 years until the King of Winter and the King-Beyond-The-Wall brought him down.

As far as we know so far, the Night’s King has no relation or connection to this guy from the show, known as the Night King (no possessive S):

Not least of which because their backstories are compelty different. The Night King of the show was created by the Children of the Forest for their war against the First Men, which clearly happened years - if not decades - before the end of the first Long Night (which, itself, lasted a generation), the construction of The Wall and the formation of the Night’s Watch.

I’m bringing up the Night’s King and Night King difference - and that the Night King is show-only - because of one particular story point with regards to the Night’s King that I don’t want anyone confusing with the Night King of the show. And that is: when the Night’s King was finally brought down, it was discovered that he had been making sacrifices to The Others, aka the White Walkers. The lore never directly says what type of sacrifices he was making to them. However, given what we’ve seen presented in both the books and the show, there appears to only be one type of sacrifices The Others/White Walkers have ever appeared to take: human babies.

As we’ve seen in both the books and the show, Craster was somehow able to negotiate with The Others/White Walkers to make an agreement to sacrifice his own sons to them. So it doesn’t appear to be much of a stretch to assume that the Night’s King was able to make some similar type of deal to sacrifice any children he made with his Queen to them as well.

So what do The Others/White Walkers want? We already know what they want. The books, the lore and the show have all already told us, and even shown us, what they want. Twice now, they have made deals and taken human sacrifices - babies - and left the places south of the wall alone when they have received such things. There is no reason to believe that they would never do so again. We just don’t know why they want what they do, which is a different question than asking what they want.

So, knowing this, how might this tie into the prophecy of The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai?

First off, in the books, the wording of the prophecy falls very much into the weasel-wording technique that Martin himself talks about. Because the person who speaks the most about the prophecy, Melisandre, talks about the prophecy being about The Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai interchangeably. Her talking about the prophecy in this way gives the impression that The Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai are one-in-the-same, and one is just another name for the other.

However, what if that is not the case. Now, it’s complicated because the show has never either mentioned nor referred to Azor Ahai, (except for possibly as just an easter egg in a book Gilly is seen reading in S7), but has used the wording more associated with Azor Ahai to talk about The Prince Who Was Promised.

Another problem is that there is no one-description of what the prophecy actually is. In A Storm of Swords (Davos III), Melisandre says this:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

Pretty straight forward. But again, this talks about Azor Ahai being reborn and how, not saying anything about The Prince Who Was Promised, or them being the same person.

And then, of course, there is the gender pronoun confusion, which is mentioned both in the books and the show, both dealing with the mistranslation about The Prince Who Was Promised. Maester Aemon in A Feast For Crows (Samwell IV) says:

What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years.

The prophecy originally having been made using the word for dragon in High Valyrian, and dragons, by nature, have no fixed gender. (The lore giving various opinions of if dragons can continually change sex at will or not. The only real way to tell if a dragon is male or female is if it lays eggs or not).

And in the show (Episode 7x02) Missandei says:

That noun has no gender in High Valyrian. The proper translation for that prophecy would be, ‘the prince or princess who was promised will bring the dawn.’

So what we have here is not only confusion as to whether or not Azor Ahai reborn is supposed to be the same person as The Prince Who Was Promised, but also gender confusion about The Prince Who Was Promised because High Valyrian nouns are not gender specific. On top of which, the show has only talked opening about The Prince Who Was Promised, but made no mention of Azor Ahai and him possibly being reborn as the prince who was promised or not.

Then of course, also from the books, we have the knowledge that a song was composed for The Prince Who Was Promised, which is called/known as “the song of ice and fire” which Daenerys learns of in her vision in the House of the Undying. (ACOK, Daenerys IV)

I’m not the first person to suggest that The Prince Who Was Promised and Azor Ahai reborn are two different people and that, between the mistranslations and gender confusion, the two things got mixed up together. But to make it clear, I’d say Azor Ahai is the one who will be reborn via salt and smoke who will wake dragons from stone, and that The Prince Who Was Promised is a separate prophecy, and person, and is the one who “will bring the dawn.”

So what does this have to do with The Others/White Walkers? Well, this is where more of that that weasel-wording technique Martin calls it comes in. In that what if The Prince Who Was Promised was actually promised to something - or someone. Namely, The Others/White Walkers. And what if it was a promise Azor Ahai himself made to them? It would go a ways to explain why the two are always connected to each other

If you look at the actual history of the First Long Night, Azor Ahai never actually defeated The Others/White Walkers. He and the members of the first Night’s Watch were able to drive them back, and had them flee into the Lands of Always Winter, but they were never defeated completely. Which is why The Wall was built in the first place and The Night’s Watch established - to guard against The Others/White Walkers coming back south and taking over the realms of Men as they did during the First Long Night.

So what if it was Azor Ahai himself who promised this “prince” to The Others/White Walker as a way to keep them from trying to invade the realms of Men another time? Again, via both the 13th LC of the NW and Craster, we know making pacts/deals with The Others/White Walkers is possible in some way. So, who is this “prince who was promised”? Yeah, I could just say Jon Snow, (because that’s what it likely looks like I’m about to say), but actually no, what if it’s not him? Or, more specifically, what if it was supposed to be him but, once again, the prophecy got slightly misinterpted?

Put a pin in this. We’ll come back to it. For now, let's go back to the 13th LC and Craster.

According to Old Nan, the 13th LC was a Stark, meaning he contained the blood of the First Men. The blood of the First Men is thought to carry some magical properties, particularly within the Stark family bloodline, which contain warging and greenseer abilities. And the Stark Kings of old were known as the Kings of Winter. So by the 13th LC likely sacrificing children of his blood that he made with his Night’s Queen, he was providing The Others/White Walkers children that carried a strong magical element in their blood.

Throughout the story and the lore, the Stark are also associated with Ice. Even their Great Valyrian Sword is called simply “Ice.”

With Craster, things are less certain there wrt the magical elements. Wildlings, which his mother was said to be, are also of the Blood of the First men, but it is not clear if the magical element is a strong among the Wildings as it is with the Starks. The main point, however, is that The Others/White Walkers accepted Craster’s sons as offerings, just as they did from the Night's King/13th LC. So they were clearly deemed as acceptable in that regard. Because, at the very least, they carried the blood of the First Men in them, from Craster’s Wildling mother.

[Side Note: There is probably going to be a plot-hole in the show wrt Craster’s kids - Gilly’s baby Little Sam specifically. Because, in the books, there is a baby-switching plot going on with Gilly’s baby, (he isn’t named Little Sam in the books, he’s just referred to as Monster instead), and Mance Rayder’s baby son. (Yes, Mance has a baby son in the books). Jon more or less forced Gilly to switch her son with Mance’s baby son to try and protect Mance’s son from possibly being killed/burned to death. So that is the fate that might actually befall Gilly’s baby son in the books while Jon is still currently dead, leaving NONE of Craster’s sons alive after that.]

So what we have here are two instances of sacrifices to The Others being made and accepted by the Others/White Walkers. And again, the only thing we’ve seen The Others/White Walkers take as a sacrifice are babies.

Now let's go back and look at The Prince Who Was Promised and, more specifically, the thing Rhaegar says about the song composed for him, specifically called “The Song of Ice and Fire.” As we all know, that is the actual title of Martin’s book series that the tv show Game of Thrones is based on. And, of course, Jon being the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark have many thinking he is “The Prince Who Was Promised” and the “song of ice and fire” because of his blood combination. However, there is another thing in the lore with the title Ice and Fire in it that is being overlooked here that I think is very significant, particularly wrt The Others/White Walkers.

And that is, The Pact of Ice and Fire.

The Pact of Ice and Fire was a pact forged between House Stark and House Targaryen, (more specifically the black faction of House Targaryen during the Dance of Dragons). As it is described in The World of Ice and Fire, it was an agreement between the two houses that a Stark male would wed a Targaryen Princess. (The recent book Fire and Blood gives more of an account and specifics of who the Princess would be . . . or, at least, who her father was supposed to be). The pact, however, was never fulfilled after The Dance ended.

What is the significant part of this is what House Stark was specifically asking for, which was a Targaryen princess. Cregan Stark specifically wanted a young Targaryen girl to wed into the Stark family.

As explained above, via both the books/lore and the show, the Starks have a connection to the happenings with The Others/White Walkers. We have the story of the 13 Lord Commander/Night’s King. We know about Bran the Builder who, with the help of the Children of the Forest (and giants) helped raise the wall to guard against them invading again. I don’t think it’s a stretch to believe that the Kings of Winter of ages past, as the Stark Kings were first called, not only knew about “The Prince Who Was Promised,” but likely also what the true meaning of what this prince/princess being promised was all about. That whomever this prince/princess was, when born, they would be given to the The Others, who had been promised to them by Azor Ahai.

So what might this have to do with the Pact of Ice and Fire and requesting a Targaryen princess to marry into House Stark? I think a clue comes from Book 2, A Clash of Kings, and Daenerys’ encounter with The Undying in the House of the Undying.

In ACOK, the Undying Ones are described in a way that has them seeming to be a representation of The Others/White Walkers; with them being described as “blue and cold.” And then there is this passage, where they try to consume Daenerys (Daenerys IV, ACOK):

They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them …

But then black wings buffeted her round the head, and a scream of fury cut the indigo air, and suddenly the visions were gone, ripped away, and Dany’s gasp turned to horror. The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting …

Then indigo turned to orange, and whispers turned to screams. Her heart was pounding, racing, the hands and mouths were gone, heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot. She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. “

Here we have the Undying, who are described in terms of cold and death, linking them in many way to The Others/White Walkers, trying to consume the fire - which is linked to life - of Daenerys. (And they almost succeeded until Drogon saves her).

There is indication that The Undying have been waiting for Daenerys for thousands of years before this moment. They want the lifeforce, the fire that she has, when she finally comes. So what we have here are creatures associated with imagery of - and visually linked to - creatures of death, (The Others/White Walkers), trying to to consume a life, the fire, from someone of Valyrian descent. Valyrian blood constantly linked to that of fire, and fire, throughout the series, is linked to life. House Targaryen’s own words (a house motto they chose when Aegon the Conqueror first began his conquest and wanted his family to adopt more Westerosi culture BTW - they never had a House motto before that) is Fire and Blood, two images also associated with life.

Just like The Undying, The Others/White Walkers also appear to be seeking life of some kind. The taking of babies, and then using those babies to create more of their kind by turning them into Others/White Walkers I think ties into this. However, they very well might be something missing from what they seek out of this. A life-force that contains what The Undying were trying to take from Daenerys - a fire.

How is a new life usually created? Male and Female coming together. Melisandre alludes to the power of that ability - to create life - in the scene when she tries to seduce Jon in Season 5 (Episode 5x04) (Start at: 1:10)

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And then of course, there is the quote from the book that she says in this seduction scene (which wasn’t a seduction scene in the book btw), from A Dance with Dragons (Jon VI):

The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.

I think the show was being a bit more hard-hitting in the foreshadowing than the book by having Melisandre say these words while appearing to try and seduce Jon. That there is power in the ability - in the act - of men and women coming together and creating life. Unlike The Others/White Walkers, who can only create more of themselves by taking an already living creation - in this case, a child - and turning them into a being like them, a being of the cold.

Yet, even with the power of men and women to do this, The Undying specifically were waiting for and sought out Daenerys for that life, that fire, that they needed. And that may be because, while both male and female coming together can create life and light, it is the female who brings forth that light and life into the world via childbirth.

There is a running theme of motherhood, and what that means, throughout Daenerys’ story. She is called Mhysa by the people she liberated from slavery and metaphorically giving them new life as free people. She birthed creatures that are considered to be fire made flesh via fire itself.

I think this is why The Pact of Ice and Fire called for a Targaryen princess to wed into House Stark. That the need for a joining of Ice and Fire had to specially be that the fruits of that joining, the life created from it, be born of fire; born via a daughter - a female - who carried such fire within her, which those of Valyrian descent do.

And this is where Rhaegar Targaryen made one of his many mistakes when it comes to the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. At some point I do think Rhaegar thought he needed a child who was - bloodline-wise - of “ice and fire.” Rhaegar had already changed his life twice-over trying to fulfill the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. There is no reason to assume he wouldn’t have done it again if he came into more info about it. For all he did likley love Lyanna, I think it’s probable that he also saw their child as the one who would make this prophecy he’d been chasing most of his life come true . . . after first thinking it was about himself, and then thinking it would be about his three children he would (hopefully) have, and the idea that “the dragon has three heads.”

However, again, Rhaegar was incorrect, not just about what the whole idea of The Prince That Was Promised actually meant, but how the blood combination of Ice and Fire was supposed to be . . . or, more specifically, how the child had to be born. Because Lyanna wasn’t fire, or the blood of fire. She was of ice, with the blood of the First Men within her, not the blood of Old Valyria. And the Prince Who Was Promised more than likely had to be born of fire, via a female with the blood of fire.

From A Game of Thrones (Daenerys X):

No, she wanted to shout to him, no my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE?

Blood of the Dragon are what those of blood of Old Valyria are called. Dragons are fire made flesh. Those of the blood Old Valyria, the Targaryens, like dragons, are also likely fire made flesh. And fire is life and light.

And the coming together of that fire with ice is symbolic of balance. From A Clash of Kings (Daenerys IV):

"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?" . . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

And from A Storm of Swords (Bran II):

"Because they're different," he insisted. "Like night and day, or ice and fire."

"If ice can burn," said Jojen in his solemn voice, "then love and hate can mate . . .”

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A great video that talks about the idea of balance between ice (Jon) and fire (Dany) and visual symbols the show uses to convey this connection to each other, along with The Others/White Walkers/Night King.

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In the show, The Night King is likely a visual representation of a being known as The Great Other from the books/lore. (Since, again, The Night King doesn’t exist in the books). The Great Other is said to be the god of cold, darkness and death, and he has no physical appearance, likely being a more metaphysical entity given the little we know. He is considered to be the enemy of the Lord of Light, known as R'hllor. In the show, killing the Night King will likely be the equivalent of defeating The Great Other in the books.

The actor who plays the Night King gave a recent interview which seems to support the idea that part of his character is likely based on The Great Other from the books:

What does the Night King want, anyway?

Somebody made him the Night King. Nobody knows who he was before — a soldier or part of [nobility]. He never wanted to be the Night King. I think he wants revenge. Everybody in this story has two sides — a bad side and a good side. The Night King only has one side, a bad side.

Thinking the Night King wants revenge isn’t the same as that being what he definitely wants. However, the idea that the Night King only has a bad side seems to fit with the view of what The Great Other is and represents in the books/lore, which is the god of darkness and death. However, I don’t think it’s all that cut and dry even via what The Great Other/Night King is. Because evil acts can be committed by those who fight for the light, such as good acts can likely be committed by those who fight for darkness/death. Melisandre’s burning of Shireen Baratheon, which Martin has already confirmed will happen in the books as well, is proof enough of that.

Also, from the recent interview, there is this:

What can we expect from him in the final season?

People will see he has a target he wants to kill, and you will find out who that is. There’s also that moment [in “Hardhome”] when Jon Snow was on the boat and the Night King looked at him and raised his arms — there’s a similar and even stronger moment between Jon and the Night King this time.

I think it’s pretty clear that that target isn’t Jon Snow. He had more than one opportunity to kill Jon, but proceeded instead to mostly just taunt him. I don’t think the target is Daenerys either, or he could have easily killed Drogon and gotten her when she came beyond the wall in Episode 6 of Season 7.

The Three-eyed Raven/Crow being the target - with that now being Bran, is an option I admit, however . . . the original Three-Eyed Raven/Crow, who was Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven, had been the Three-Eyed Raven/Crow for many years, and there is little to no indication that The Night King was actively trying to kill him during any of that time.

However, what if the killing of the target doesn’t mean just “to kill,” so much in the sense of what we saw happen to the former Three-Eyed Raven in the show, but is more in the vein of what happened to Daenerys in the House of the Undying in the books, when the Undying tried to take her life-force from her.

And the person they want to do this with is actually the child Daenerys and Jon will/have created?

Because the foreshadowing that Jon and Daenerys will have a child in the coming season was pretty obvious, not to mention Daenerys whole underlying story theme and motif of motherhood. Also, do not overlook this clip, which HBO chose to highlight before the start of Season 8, where Viserys makes this comment about the child that Dany is set to have with Khal Drogo (Episode 1x06) (Start: 1:16):

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He won’t be a real Targaryen. He won’t be a true dragon.

Jon and Daenerys’ child however, who will be a “real” Targaryen via both its parents, as well as a child that will also carry the blood of the First Men, the ice, via his/her father, might very well be the actual target, given what we’ve already seen of The Others/White Walkers taking of babies who were sacrificed to them. “The Prince Who Was Promised will bring the dawn” might not mean that the Prince Who Was Promised will somehow fight and defeat The Others/White Walkers, but that in sacrificing this prince/princess who was “promised” to the them, promised to The Others/White Walkers, promised to them by Azor Ahai all those thousands of years ago, that that will cause The Others/White Walkers to once again leave the realms of men alone, retreat back into the Lands of Always Winter, and bring back the Dawn for another 8000 years or so. Until the cycle will likely start again.

And this would, quite frankly, be where much internal conflict and drama would arise. Because neither Jon nor Daenerys would be up for sacrificing their baby, even for some greater good, in the view of either Craster or the 13th Lord Commander. (In fact, I think Jon’s going to learn a hard lesson about that when the baby switching plot he instigated wrt Gilly’s baby in the books plays out to a tragic end for Gilly’s baby). If they can find a way to defeat The Others/White Walkers without having to make such a sacrifice and basically taking the easy way out to do so, they may also guarantee that this time, The Others/White Walkers will truly be destroyed and gone forever this time. Instead of what Azor Ahai did, which only seemed to have the go into some kind of slumber and dormancy, and staying in the lands beyond the wall.

However, there may be some among Jon and Daenerys’ army and/or advisors who would want to take the easy route and give the child over to end the conflict quickly, which - while pushing off the problem again for another couple of thousands years - could prevent many people from dying and becoming a part of the Army of the Dead and overrunning Westeros as was what happened during the first Long Night. (Which didn’t stay limited to only Westeros, but spread over almost all of Essos as well).

In the show, Daenerys’ story has a theme about wanting to “break the wheel”; the wheel being the nature of the political dynamics of Westeros that benefits the more Noble Classes that fight for power and dominance, symbolized by the Iron Throne, and those who do not benefit from that ongoing struggle, which are the lower classes and smallfolk of Westeros. They are the ones who are always crushed underneath this wheel, this circular nature of the political power fights and wars.

However, this idea of “breaking the wheel” may also, in the end, extend to the fight against The Others/White Walkers. As noted, this is not the first time they have invaded the realms of men. And, the last time they did, they were not defeated. The problem they are, the threat they pose, seems to have been pushed off to another generation to have to fight, combat and deal with. And at the center of that fight to do so might just rest with Ice and Fire coming together to create something new. However, the prophecy that has dictated the lives of many people that has lead to this, has never dictated the lives of the two people who may have the most influence in The Prince Who Was Promised prophecy coming to fruition. Neither Jon or Daenerys have lived their lives or made decisions in their lives sorley to fulfil a prophecy. And given what was very likely the weasel-wording technique used for The Prince Who Was Promised prophecy, the fact that they did so may, in the end, be the deciding factor in the breaking of another wheel, another cycle of destruction.

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novalian · 6 years ago

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8x02 - Sansa and Dany

I loved the scene between Sansa and Dany; they were clearly feeling each other out, figuring out which triggers to press and where the battle lines are drawn. It’s bookended by two tone-setting scenes; the first implies that Dany, rather than deciding to have an honest personal conversation with Sansa about their conflict, is there on advice from Jorah, which cements her motivations as primarily political. The personal framing on her part is pure tactics.

While she is better at grand gestures and broad politics, she does show some interpersonal acumen here. This is an interrogation, but she asks almost no questions; she makes statements, and creates space for Sansa to react and reveal herself. ‘I thought you and I were on the verge of agreement before, about Ser Jaime’/ ‘Brienne has been loyal to me, always. I trust her more than anyone.’ Dany is looking to understand Sansa, and here she learns the value Sansa places on her closest advisor – a female warrior with a deep connection to one of the Lannister brothers.

‘I wish I could have that kind of faith in my advisors’ – Dany’s tone is conspiratorial, positioning herself as a peer who hasn’t had Sansa’s luck in advisors (and emphasizing that faith in Cersei’s promise was not her own mistake). That Sansa defends Tyrion shows her capacity to care for individuals in the Targaryen campaign; that her defence is of his ‘decency’ highlights her attention to people’s character, while Dany fixates on the consequences of following Tyrion’s directive rather than the sound mind and character behind it. She doubles down with ‘good and intelligent and ruthless when he had to be’ – the crux being that Tyrion was too stupid and soft to see Cersei’s deceit. She tees herself up for Sansa’s support here – she knows of their history, and she may even know of her recent conversation with Tyrion. But Sansa doesn’t let Dany off – a leader is responsible for their own decisions, no matter whose advice they were taking when they made them.

Dany does not like this. She receives it – takes a breath – and puts a smile back on her face to return the serve. ‘I thought you knew his sister’ (I did not – how could I have known when her own brother did not?).

‘Families are complicated.’ ‘Ours certainly have been.’ Dany keeps pulling the conversation back to the personal and common; her expressions and body language are almost maternal – leaning forward, hands clasped, smiling - presenting a confidant. ‘We have other things in common...’ She makes a guess at the type of compliment Sansa might like, after calling her beautiful earned scorn in the first episode. She doesn’t yet understand how inoculated Sansa is to any type of flattery, and that undetectably manipulating her would take a more subtle touch than Dany is herself capable of. Sansa does give a small smile, but she is performing too, waiting for Dany to reach her point.

‘And yet I can’t help but feel we’re at odds with one another. Why is that?’ Sansa’s pause here is interesting; she doesn’t answer right away, and Dany fills the silence – ‘Your brother.’ I wonder if Sansa might have said something different if Dany had not wanted to prove she understood Sansa already; if she had not been handed confirmation of what Dany wants to hear.

‘He loves you, you know that.’ This is not a surprise to Dany – she already believed this. But I think she is surprised Sansa steps right past acknowledging Dany’s influence on Jon to saying that he loves her.

‘That bothers you.’/ ‘Men do stupid things for women. They’re easily manipulated.’

There is a subtle shift in the power dynamic here; where Dany had been searching for answers, she is now on the back foot, pressed for the right thing to say. Sansa has managed to make Jon the accused, the doer of stupid things, the easily manipulated – but Dany must affirm or deny if this is the case and provide evidence, in a battle where the winner is the person who gives the least information.

‘All my life I’ve known one goal. The Iron Throne.’ It is stony Khaleesi here, channelling the determination that has birthed dragons, willing Sansa to believe in it. ‘Taking it back from the people who destroyed my family and almost destroyed yours.’ We are both victims of history; we are both here for our families. ‘My war was against them. Until I met Jon.’ Her tone now is soft and sweet, about the man – and she is the girl, allowing Sansa a peek behind the curtain. ‘Now I’m here, half a world away, fighting Jon’s war alongside him. Tell me, who manipulated whom?’ Her delivery of the final question is wry; her eyes are soft, her lips upturned - she believes she has herded Sansa neatly to the conclusion that she is here for love of Jon, and so for love of the North – and so she is a woman who both loves and is beloved – and so on.

Sansa’s moment of consideration lapses into a little smile and huff of breath as she looks at her lap. I think it has just clicked into place for her how to move this woman – but she plays the recognition as understanding at last that she should be grateful for Dany’s presence. It’s a shift from Cersei-like intimidation to Margaery’s self-affirming flattery; ‘I should have thanked you, the moment you arrived. That was a mistake.’ She is marking a shift in strategy here but Dany takes it as designed, ready to believe. Sansa leans forward to mirror Dany’s posture, both confident now. Dany takes her hand.

‘I’m here because I love your brother. And I trust him. And I know he’s true to his word. He’s only the second man in my life I can say that about.’

‘Who was the first?’

‘Someone taller.’

Dany’s joke comes off a little too staged; Sansa’s chuckle reminiscent of an earlier iteration of herself, the persona that made people believe she was just a stupid little girl. She asks, as if in good faith; ‘And what happens afterwards?’ Dany is a little nonplussed, having completed her formula for recruitment – ‘… I take the Iron Throne’ (of course). Sansa doesn’t break eye contact; she’s not smiling now.

‘What about the North?’

Dany’s good humour fades as Sansa speaks a story reminiscent of all the slave cities Dany freed, only she is casting herself and the Northmen as their own Khaleesi – ‘We took it back. It was taken from us. We took it back, and we said we’d never bow to anyone else again. What about the North.’ It is a challenge, and this is where Sansa takes Margaery’s brand of persuasion a step further and makes it her own; she doesn’t allow Dany to sit in the comfortable assumption that if she convinces Sansa she loves Jon, that will be enough. She creates an empty space for Dany to fill – with her acceptance, her understanding, her pride, or her anger – and watches to see which way the coin falls.

Dany’s eyes are cold as she realizes that Sansa’s pleasantries can be won this way, but not the North; she withdraws her hand, making it clear the condition upon which her friendship is truly offered. And the conversation ends with the Maester summoning them, leaving Sansa with the last word and an unanswered question.

The second bookend scene is the arrival of Theon. Dany believed for a second she had won Sansa over, but leaves the room rejected; Sansa offered Dany a chance to show she cared more for the North than her ownership of it, but was proven right. Dany needs a victory, and hearing of Yara is a relief, but that feeling is quickly dashed by yet another diversion of power to Sansa, who it turns out is the reason for Theon’s presence and the person he wants to fight for. It cinches the point that Sansa has been trying to make – there is no leadership vacuum in the North. The relationships and loyalties that existed before Dany arrived don’t just disappear, and her insistence on being their queen is not salvation. It’s subjugation.

#got spoilers #daenerys targaryen #sansa stark #got meta #gabi makes words about got #i must have rewatched this scene about ten times #it is so well done #the way they shift and change in response to one another

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lady-griffin · 6 years ago

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My initial thoughts, while watching “Whatever the fuck this episode is called”(S8E02)

Update: “A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms” If that’s not title, than they are wrong. That should be the title.

Spoilers Below

So, they’re starting up right at the beginning, no lead up. Just straight to the trial of Jaime. Interesting.

Jamie doesn’t look scared of Daenerys. Interesting.

Damn, that glare to Tyrion. Damn.

Sansa agrees with Daenerys, not what I was expecting.

“The things we do for love” (ice ice baby)

Brienne standing up for Jamey and Brienne convincing Sansa. This just shows me how much Sansa loves and appreciates Brienne and all she has done for her.

Jon is just trying not to give away how freaked out he is.

Jon followed Sansa? Maybe?

I don’t think so, but maybe? It certainly looked like it.

Everyone follows their leader, I quite like that (or at least that appearance)

Daenerys angry at Tyrion, again…

Tyrion just seems like a hollow version of himself. It’s honestly depressing I was hoping Tyrion had been constructing some plot with Cersei, at least he be more Tyrion-like.

Gendry just giving the vaguest of answers.

It’s like darts at your local college bar.

Gendry is both impressed and horny.

Bran and Jaime!!

Is ghost there? I want Ghost

No Ghost ☹

I did not like that answer Bran, I did not like it at all.

I mean logically there’s going to be an after, but they actually did such a splendid job of building up that unease, of “will there be a tomorrow?”

It’s really well done. I have to say. I know there’s 3 episodes after the final battle. But still that uneasiness and I’m so worried everyone is going to die. It’s really well done. I’ll give them that.

Tyrion & Jaime (Jaime getting all the reunions)

How do they like their new queen? (Jaime asking the questions)

She is different. Are you sure about it? (Jaime is not convinced)

I do wonder, if the pregnancy is real. Or at least was once real. Or ever was.

Ha! Jaime just walks away from Tyrion…why? What did he see? Oh, it’s Brienne.

Seriously, Jaime getting all the reunions

Jaime and Bienne are a romcom couple, but with their own warrior twist

Jorah & Dany, interesting. Daenerys goes from harsh and fiery to soft and gentle in seconds.

Did he send her to make nice with Sansa?

I love these scenes with Royce. Him waiting for Sansa to give the go ahead (the second time too).

I like you Royce. And Sansa earning that respect.

Do you ever think Royce is like, I wish you were the Lady of The Vale and Robin wasn’t the Lord. I want it so bad. Damn you winterfell.

Who manipulated whom?

That is such an interesting question.

It’s so interesting to me that this is all framed as Jon’s war. Even though everyone’s life is at stake, even though there is not going to be a 7k if they fail. Humanity itself is at stake and yet Daenerys despite still being there, is blind to that fact. She views this as Jon’s war and her doing him this favor

Daenerys can be quite charming. See it’s these scenes with her that I quite like, you can see why people followed her. But that anger.

Emilia Clarke is fantastic at that angry face. Just truly amazing. The people who say she can’t act, I just have to disagree.

That quick shift to anger, is just perfection.

And I like that sudden shift and this new (old) dynamic between Sansa and Daenerys.

The anger in Daenerys’ eyes, Sansa fighting for the North

Daenerys taking her hand back, once she didn’t get what she wanted. Just lovely (I mean that seriously).

I really like that scene

Theon!!!

I love how he asks Sansa to fight for Winterfell, not Dany

I’m so happy these two are reunited

Me: *Watching Daenerys watching Theon and Sansa* Clearly she thinks these those two are in love

Me: *watches Theon and Sansa* wait…. are they in love?

Huh? I am not opposed to that as much as I thought I would be.

Gilly looks very nice

Baby girl. Oh no, she looks like Shireen, oh poor Davos

Sweet precious baby, “I’ll defend the crypt then”

Oh, please don’t die, oh please don’t die

TORMUND

He just slammed into Jon.

“My little crow”

I love the dynamic between Edd and Tormund now.

And Tormund and Jon

Tormund, I love him

“is the big woman still here?

See! I love the humor with Tormund, forget the talk of balls and dicks, just give me Tormund

War Council Meeting

Sam: Why?

Out of everyone who’s reacted to Bran, Sam has some of the best reactions. Hands down.

Also keep the Bran humor coming.

I think the plan might just be to have Brans stare at the Night King until he goes away…

That discussion of death…it’s all about the stories you become in then end (if you even do become one)

See that’s what interests me so much, what will be the final stories of these characters within this world? From a hundred years from now how will people remember Sansa? Arya? Brienne? Jon? Tyrion?

Will the be accurate or exaggerated fiction and simplified versions?

Jon avoiding Dany

Strange Journey, indeed. A vey nice way to describe Bran’s tale.

I really liked the scene with Tyrion and Bran

It oddly really humanized Bran and made me feel like we have Old Tyrion Back. Which is quite impressive, seeing as a few moments ago I was saying he was a hollow version of himself.

Aww Messandei ☹☹☹

Can the people of the North just be nice to Messandei? Just her okay. You can hate Daenerys, but just be nice to her. She’s so precious.

Greyworm & Messandei, my heart

GHOST!!!!!

GHOST!!!

GHOST!!!!

It’s my boy Ghost. GHOST!!!!

Night’s Watch Boys, singing their greatest hit

And now my watch begins

I am starting to get worried about those Crypts

“I wish father was here”

Jaime’s expression, omg I had to pause, I was laughing so hard.

Tormund, no

What? What? What? What? What?

What kind of story is that?

What?

Such an interesting group – Jaime, Tyrion, Podrick, Brienne, Davos and Tormund

Now Arya, Hound and Beric and hopefully Gendry will join too

Oh, I guess Ghost, Jon, Sam and Edd were the night’s watch group

I like this grouping theme

Is Sansa going to get a group? I hope so

Awww, Gendry and Arya got their own little group (as a pair)

Arya’s reaction to learning Gendry is a Baratheon – just amazing!!

Please don’t die, please don’t die

Now a sexy pair

A bit awkward, but get some Arya!

My baby has scars ☹

I mean it makes sense that she has scars, but no, not my baby Arya

But she’s finally getting that Stag

Ser Brienne of Tarth

Fuck Tradition (Tormund is just an angel)

Is Jaime going to knight Brienne?

HE IS!!! YAY!!!

All of you are going to die and I’m so sad, please don’t die

I really love this episode, for these character interactions and these moments

Its just nice, having these characters talk and just be together

See now I hope Brienne lives, the first Lady Knight

Aww Tormund, my heart - his standing ovation

Ser Brienne Tarth, my heart is yours. Please don’t tear up or you’ll make me cry

That smile. It’s not tears, just allergies.

This was such a great scene.

Old Bear and Little Bear, fighting.

That’s very fitting for the first we see them interact. Fighting. That seems very Mormont.

Right they are cousins…I guess since the age difference; I was thinking Uncle and Niece.

But then again, we have Jon and Daenerys, so age doesn’t really matter when it comes to these relationships.

All those big men following Little Lady Mormont. Perfection. And her suit of armor. Perfection.

I wanted Sansa to have a group of her own ☹

Podrick singing

Sansa and Theon

Gendry and Arya

Messandei and Greyworm

This episode had some serious hints of Theonsa

Lyanna Stark

I really thought Jon was going to answer, “my mother”

Your brother and best friend – she doesn’t believe it. The second Jon started talking you can see the anger build up.

“Dany” – that’s interesting. He hasn’t called that her since the boat.

THE LAST MALE HEIR - that’s where her mind went to first! That’s where her mind went!

Not that she slept with her nephew. Or that she isn’t that last of her family and she’s no longer “alone”. No, her mind went to the fact that he has more right to the Iron Throne. Wow…wow

I mean I’m not shocked, but still… wow. Not even confusion, but Anger. Just Anger.

Dark Dany isn’t coming. She’s already here.

Also going back to the Podrick Singing

I don’t know if Sophie Turner can sing, but I would have loved if Sansa had walked into the room and sang. Or they heard her singing outside. Or that scene led to Sansa singing to Theon. Singing and songs are such a big part of Sansa in the books, it’s so disappointing to me that the show doesn’t go that way with her.

Particularly since it’s about Jenny of Oldstones who married the Dragonfly Prince. Who gave up his throne for her

Anyone else think Jon might be willing to give up his claim for a certain Jenny?

No longer be a Dragon Prince but a Dragonfly Prince, instead. And who wore several dragonflies in the earlier days?

ALSO, FLORENCE + THE MACHINE

I am going to be listening nonstop to that song.

Back to the Library Sansa & Dany Scene

When I was watching the episode, I thought it was pulling a bit away from Dark Dany. At least until the crypt scene.

But rereading my notes, I have to say I don’t think they were pulling away at all.

For one thing I think those nice, gentle and charming scenes now that I’m thinking about them – remind me of what Maester Pycelle had said about her father. How great and kind, and charming he was. And madness being the worst plague from the gods.

It’s not about Daenerys being good or bad, she is quite capable of both. It’s what she chooses in the end.

But let’s get down to that one line, in particular.

Who is manipulating whom?

Great foreshadowing and such omnious subtext, to a seemingly “friendly joke”

Not a lot of evidence for Political Jon, overall in this episode. Except for that line.

It’s interesting though, that Sansa even states, “you know he loves you”

Which brings me to three conclusions

1. Jon told Sansa the truth and she manipulating Daenerys (Sansa went from ice cold to reminding me a bit of Margaery in that scene)

2. Jon told Sansa that he bent the knee because he loved Daenerys and she believes him and now being friendly for a few seconds and then back to ice ice baby, because of reasons... I guess

3. Or Jon is really in love with Daenerys and that is how he acts when he’s in love now…. which if that’s the case, I’m okay with Theon and Sansa. Stay away from Sansa, jonathan, if that’s how you are when you’re in love. My girl deserves better.

But the real interesting thing about Political Jon, is whether or not it’s really true

Dany is starting to believe in Political Jon and she’s going to start seriously asking, who is manipulating whom?

I greatly enjoyed this episode. It was such a highlight. Taking those moments and time to sit with characters and see them talk and see how they handle their last night or what might be their last night.

#Game of thrones #GOT #got spoilers #Got s8 spoilers #Got characters #Sansa Stark #Daenerys Targaryen #Jaime Lannister #Tyrion Lannister #Jon Snow #Arya Stark #Gendry #Gendrya #Brienne of Tarth #SER BRIENNE #Tormund Giantsbane #Davos Seaworth #Jenny of Oldstones

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king-of-kings1 · 6 years ago

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Robert Baratheon - the one character fandom does not understand properly.

Okay, I've seen many arguments regarding asoiaf in almost all over the internet. Any network, any platform, name anything there will be some arguments between the fans. One of the most important and common fanfight I've ever seen is, Robert vs Rhaegar, morality one i.e who was the better man.

I've seen heavy arguments from either side, claiming the fav man is the best but I chose to stand on the neutral perspective and see who really is a better person and this will be my analysis of it.

So Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen, two of the great names in the entire ASOIAF series. The fight between them extends in the fandoms in a long line. Obviously everyone can admit the Robert was the better warrior but who was the better human being?

Many fans seem to misunderstand Robert and tends to paint him as some heartless monster and a drunkard who is obsessed with a girl who does not loves him, who smiled at the corpses of children, who abused and raped his wife, who wanted to kill some innocent Targaryen children who had nothing to do with Rhaegar or Aerys. You see, these points are all the ones which comes round in a circle again and again to say that Robert was a bad human being but trust me, Robert is not bad, I would not even say him as a faulted character.

Robert is probably one of the only characters who was designed by his past trauma along with his brother Stannis. Robert comes off as a jolly man, easy to laugh and loving fun at every turn but the truth is, he has much sadness pressed up in him than his fun-loving attitude. When he was still a little boy he sees his parents die before his own eyes. Yes, that's right. He stands in some tower with Stannis and watches his father and mother die right before his eyes. Though there is no mentioning how the brothers reacted to it physically, one could easily imagine how it should've felt to watch your parents die right before your eyes and you could do nothing to save them. Imagine yourself in that position and how would you feel? Now that's where Robert finds hate towards the Targaryens for the first time because Steffon and Cassana Baratheon took the voyage only on Aerys' orders to find Rhaegar a bride with valyrian blood. See that, the names Aerys and Rhaegar comes in the death of his parents.

Then Robert was sent to be fostered in Eyrie and his time at Eyrie was his best with Jon Arryn becoming a very strong father figure to him and Ned as a brother from another mother. But still, he was young and was likely affected by the dreadful past memories (look how long years Ned was affected with the trauma of the war). So he turns to alcohol and women to help him forget like any normal man in his place would do. So no, he did not choose to be a drunkard or a playboy, he was forced to by his tragic past.

Then he is betrothed to Ned's sister, and is so happy of the fact that he and Ned will soon be brothers bound by blood but then again Rhaegar comes to shit on that like the same way he did with his parents and how do you expect him to behave? To smile and brush off as if nothing had happened. And then Aerys calls for his head and the head of the man he considers as his brother, he would normally be like, Well, Fuck you, asshole. You killed my parents, your son shits on me and my house's honor and now you want to kill me and my buddy, that's not how its gonna be. Fuck you, fuck your son, fuck your family. You can't blame him for that.

He has every right to be mad at the Targs. One way or another all the bitter things happened in Robert's life is connected with the Targaryens.

And he is just happy to build the realm back to glory with the woman he loved but then the last blow strikes with Lyanna's death. Lyanna's death completely destroyed him and all the plans he had for the realm. So yes, Robert loved Lyanna, whether it be the idea of her or anything else, Robert loved Lyanna and was not obsessed with her. The first thing he does after reaching Winterfell is to visit Lyanna, he even chastises Ned for burying her in such a cold dreary place and says that even in death she deserved better, better in such a manner that no one ever had before. Ned genuinely believes that Robert truly loved Lyanna. Did Robert truly knew Lyanna? We don't know, but the truth is Lyanna never wanted to know Robert, not the other way around. She just makes her own idea of him and never even tries to give him a chance. What a stupid does that? She doesn't likes his boyish ways but did she ever asked him to change that? How could she know he could never change without even giving him a chance?

He fights the war, because his life and the lives of all the others he'd loved is in danger. He fucks up Rhaegar, fucks up Aerys but really has nothing to do with Elia and her children's deaths because the deed was done before even he came to King's Landing. Yes, it was wrong that he laughed at the bodies of Targaryen children, but come on, look at it from his pov it shall feel right for him. And tbh, it was Rhaegar who left his wife and children there in the first place so he is responsible for their deaths more than Robert.

Coming back from that we'll compare the best and worsts Robert and Rhaegar. Rhaegar is really good. He is the perfect prince of Westeros and the small folk loved him. But what he did with Lyanna is inexcusable and make the entire realm turn against him and root for Robert. He leaves his wife and children in the grasp of his father.

Now some like to say Robert was no better to his wife than Rhaegar was to his. For them, Robert whispers the name Lyanna in Cersei's ear, yes, and that's because he was drunk with grief over Lyanna. He raped her, okay that thing is inexcusable but what about Rhaegar's approaches with Elia? The princess had a fragile nature and Rhaenys' birth was hard for her that it troubled the maesters that she might not be able to survive another birth. But Rhaegar who is so obsessed with the prophecy gets her with child again within a few years. Who is to say that Rhaegar never forced Elia? And it might've been the wine which made him force himself upon her because Robert immediately feels sorry for hurting her. And what about all of Rhaegar's public insults to Elia which Robert never does to Cersei? Robert had a chance to set aside Cersei and take Margaery as his queen by the hands of Renly, but no he never did that. He knew his wife hated him, was cold to him and still he never once tried to set her aside for another woman.

And Robert is a better king than Rhaegar. Now most like to say that Robert was a bad king and how he spent the realm's money in unwanted things. Say what you will but Robert was a better king than Rhaegar ever would've. The first and foremost duty of a king is to protect his kingdom and his people. While Rhaegar caused a war for his stupid prophecy and burned his kingdom down Robert did the exact opposite. Rhaegar stayed in the stupid tower when the war he started was raging across Westeros. But when Balon Greyjoy attacked his kingdom and threatened the peace of his people Robert takes action at once, defeats Balon and takes his son hostage to prevent any further wars. He holds the peace in his realm after two wars, Two Bloody Wars.

And yes, he gives up his hate for the Targaryens in his deathbed and gets his orders to kill Dany back.

Robert is a great character who is loved by his people, so much that they cheer for the douchebag Joffrey over Ned just because they think him to be Robert's son. Even Ser Barristan while in Dany's service regards Robert as his king and feels bad for failing him. He is such a character that Ned feels something dies within him when he hears about Robert's death, who else could make Ned feel that way.

So here it is, the end: Robert Baratheon is a good man and better than Rhaegar.

#a song of ice and fire #game of thrones #robert baratheon #character #eddard stark #robert is good #character analysis #robert vs rhaegar #ned stark #cersei lannister #stannis baratheon #jon arryn #lyanna stark #anti rhaegar x lyanna

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trinuviel · 6 years ago

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Winterfell’s Daughter. On Sansa Stark (part 15)

I’ve previously written a series of essays that analyse Sansa Stark’s narrative arc in Game of Thrones - during season 1 (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6) and during season 2 (Part 7, Part 8, Part 9, Part 10) and now during season 3 (Part 11, Part 12, Part 13, Part 14).

As I’ve repeatedly stated, Sansa’s season 3 arc revolves around her political importance as Robb Stark’s heir apparent since her younger brothers Bran and Rickon are dead in the eyes of Westeros. Several major power players attempt to secure Sansa in order to control her claim to the North but it is the Lannisters who win that political game by wedding her to Tyrion after Petyr Baelish revealed the secret plan of the Tyrells to marry Sansa to Ser Loras. In this post, I’m going to take a closer look at how the wedding between Sansa and Tyrion plays out in episode 8.

BEFORE THE WEDDING

In my previous post, I criticized the manner in which the show frames Sansa’s reaction to the fact that she is forced to marry Tyrion Lannister - a marriage designed to exploit her status as Robb’s heir, a marriage predicated upon a plot to murder her brother and his pregnant wife so that Sansa will become the Key to the North in truth. It is a diabolical plan when you really think about it but the show mainly presents this whole thing from Tyrion’s perspective and when we are shown Sansa’s reactions, they are framed as shallow and intolerant (i.e. she’s not attracted to Tyrion because he’s a dwarf). The fact that she’s the victim in this scheme is effectively glossed over in episode 7 when Margaery attempts to console her.

Fortunately, the show turns out to be rather inconsistent in terms of how it frames Sansa’s reaction to this marriage in episode 8 where Tyrion comes to see her before the ceremony. The scene starts with a close-up of Sansa’s doll, the one that Ned gave her after he killed Lady. This doll may have functioned as a symbol of Ned’s guilt (x) and a reminder of Lady’s death in the beginning but after his death, it has come to mean something else for Sansa. Now it is the last tangible link to her father as well as a source of comfort to her (x). It is also a visual reminder to the audience that Sansa is still a child – and too young to get married! This is something that the show also explicitly states – both Shae and Tyrion call her a child within the context of marriage and sex, which really drives home how callous Tywin Lannister is in his exploitation of her claim to the North.

After the close-up of the doll, the camera pans up and we see that the doll is placed on Sansa’s dressing table, next to the mirror wherein we see her reflection as her maids prepare her for her wedding. There’s a knock on the door and Tyrion enters the room, his reflection joining Sansa’s in the mirror. Sansa stands up to greet her intended while Shae remains at her side.

Sansa: You look very handsome, my lord.

Tyrion (sarcastically): Oh, yes. The husband of your dreams. But you do look glorious.

Sansa fidgets, wringing her hands nervously as Tyrion asks for a moment alone with her. The conversation that follows is very awkward, mostly because Tyrion repeatedly says the wrong things, then realizing his blunders and trying to backtrack.

Tyrion: My lady, I want you to know. I didn’t ask for this.

Sansa (tonelessly): I hope I will not disappoint you, my lord.

Tyrion: No, don’t. You don’t have to speak to me as a prisoner. You won’t be a prisoner after today. You’ll be my wife.

This is a rather tactless utterance on Tyrion’s part. The fact remains that Sansa IS a prisoner – and the marriage is designed to keep her a permanent one. Tyrion may not have asked for this marriage but Sansa never gave her consent and she isn’t in a position to refuse. This is a FORCED marriage and she is not obligated to try to make the best of it or relieve Tyrion of his unease. However, she doesn’t dare to express her displeasure. Instead we see Sansa utilizing her trademark courtesy as a piece of emotional armour, keeping up a wall of icy politeness to keep Tyrion at arm’s length.

Tyrion: I suppose that is a different kind of prison.

So he does understand but then he immediately tries to forge a connection in another way, only to fail again.

Tyrion: I just wanted to say… I’m just trying to say, very badly… I just… Just want to say I know how you feel.

This is just incredibly presumptuous of him. While he didn’t ask for the marriage, his feelings cannot be compared to Sansa’s. Her hopes for freedom have been crushed and she can only look forward to a lifelong imprisonment as the Lannisters attempt to steal her home. Tyrion is trying to make himself feel better because he knows that this marriage is designed to disenfranchise her while it is set up to benefit him. Thankfully, Sansa refuses to play along here.

Sansa: I doubt that very much my lord.

Tyrion: You’re right. I have no idea how you feel. And you have no idea how I feel.

It is clear that Sansa’s impassive demeanour makes Tyrion very uncomfortable, which makes him defensive. However, he is also very much aware of how wrong it is of Tywin to force Sansa into this marriage and he’s trying to make himself feel a bit better about the role he is to play in this farce.

The camera cuts to a close-up of Tyrion taking Sansa’s hand.

Tyrion: But I promise you one thing, my lady. I won’t ever hurt you.

Finally, Tyrion strikes the right chord. He ought simply to have lead with an acknowledgement that she doesn’t want this marriage but that he’ll never hurt her. He takes her arm and they leave her chambers. Then the camera cuts to an exterior view of the Sept of Baelor where the wedding ceremony is to take place.

What is notable about this shot is the fact that the cinematographer uses a frog’s eye perspective (from below), which makes the building loom threateningly over the spectator. This is a good example of how the camera work can be invested with emotion. The prospect of the wedding and the marriage is an oppressive threat for Sansa – so one can argue that the first view of the Sept of Baelor is set within her POV and the audience is invited to share it through the visual language.

THE CEREMONY

After a barbed conversation between Margaery and Cersei, the camera cuts to an exterior view of the doors to sept, shot from the frog’s eye perspective that lends the visuals an oppressive, even threatening quality. As the doors are slowly opening, Sansa walks into frame until she is framed by the door way.

Then the camera cuts to an OTS (over the shoulder) shot with Sansa framed by the light from the open doorway and a pair of septas.

She’s the visual focal point of this scene though the OTS shot locates the camera (and thus the eye of the audience) within Tyrion’s POV - since the OTS shot is a device often used to anchor a shot within the POV of a given character.

The camera gets to peek over the shoulder of our main talent and assumes a point of view like that of our talent. The camera (and therefore the viewing audience) sees directly what the main talent sees. Granted, the face of the actor is hidden from view, so we do not know what he or she may be thinking or feeling from this angle, but since the audience is placed into the shot from the character’s point-of-view (POV), the audience is encouraged to do the thinking and feeling for the character or as the character more directly. This is sort of an objective – subjective shot type where you get a privileged point of view from what is usually a more neutral camera angle. (x)

The OTS shot is followed by a close-up of Tyrion - this reaction shot also functions to make clear that we are dealing with Tyrion’s experience as Sansa enters the sept. We are still within his POV.

A reaction shot is one of the basic units of film grammar and it is used as part of the non-verbal story-telling in order to express the inner life of the characters:

A reaction shot usually implies the display of some sort of emotion on the face of the actor being shown, and is thus most commonly a close-up shot (although a group of actors may be shown reacting together). A reaction shot is also generally bereft of dialogue, though this is not an absolute rule. Its main purpose is to show an emotional response to the immediately preceding action or words of another character in the scene, or to an event in the immediately preceding scene which may or may not involve another actor (e.g., an explosion, monster, empty room, etc.) (x)

There are a lot of reaction shots in this scene as we see the various characters respond to what is happening - and since this is a fairly long scene with very little dialogue, these shots are quite important in order to lend the proceedings emotional intensity.

After Sansa has moved into the sept, Joffrey approaches her with a swagger and a smirk. He can hardly contain his glee because he’s using this event to torture her emotionally. He reminds her that her father is gone and since the King is the Father of the Realm, he’ll give her away to her husband-to-be. The fact that Joffrey, who is responsible for Ned Stark’s death, is going to act as proxy for Sansa’s father during the ceremony just underscores how much of a farce this wedding is.

Sansa reluctantly takes his arm and they begin to walk forward as the doors close behind them.

The walk up to the altar takes a fair bit of time - from the moment that Sansa enters the sept and until she stands at the altar - is about 1:30 min long. That is, in fact, a very very long in terms of cinema and television. The moment of her approach to the altar is dragged out to an almost uncomfortable degree - and this underscores the awkward and uncomfortable nature of the event.

Joffrey and Sansa ascend the stairs to the altar and as they come abreast with Tyrion, Joffrey takes away the little stool that Tyrion was to use for the cloaking of the bride. Because Joffrey is a little shit who likes to humiliate people, especially the two he seems to hate the most: Tyrion and Sansa.

After this little piece of assholery from Joffrey, Sansa and Tyrion face the alter and the septon. Once again we get an OTS shot, this time from the septon’s POV. This shot is angled from a bird’s eye perspective (from above), which is the opposite of the frog’s eye perspective - but the effect is the same. This angle lends the scene an oppressive quality, which helps to convey how unhappy event this wedding is for both Sansa and Tyrion.

Septon: You may now cloak the bride and bring her under your protection.

Sansa turns her back on Tyrion so that he can put the Lannister cloak on her shoulders. However, Joffrey has removed the stool that was provided for this purpose. Tyrion shakes out the cloak and approaches Sansa. A wide-shot makes it clear that it is impossible for him to cloak her when she remains standing.

Sansa remains standing for quite a bit of time while Tyrion struggles with the cloak. In fact, she remains standing for 10 whole seconds, which is a LONG time in terms of television. Long enough for the crowd to begin laughing – in fact, the scene includes a number of reaction shot of various people laughing.

In the end, Tyrion has to ask Sansa to kneel, which she eventually does.

This scene is somewhat different than the way it is portrayed in the books where Sansa refuses to kneel for the cloaking ceremony and Tyrion eventually has to resort to use Ser Dontos as a stool.

The bride's cloak he held was huge and heavy, crimson velvet richly worked with lions and bordered with gold satin and rubies. No one had thought to bring a stool, however, and Tyrion stood a foot and a half shorter than his bride. As he moved behind her, Sansa felt a sharp tug on her skirt. He wants me to kneel, she realized, blushing. She was mortified. It was not supposed to be this way. She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp. She felt another tug at her skirt, more insistent. I won't. Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine? (ASoS, Sansa III)

The question is: Why did the show make this change? I suspect that this change was made for practical reasons. Having Peter Dinklage balance on the back of another actor while putting an unwieldy piece of fabric on Sophie Turner seems a bit unsafe for him. He could easily fall and hurt himself in such a scenario. So the way the scene played out may just have been a pragmatic solution to a practical problem in order to prevent a situation where an actor could possibly be injured.

Many fans were very upset with this change and so was I at first because it seemed as if the writes removed what little agency Sansa had left in this situation. However, upon a re-watch I have changed my stance on this issue. Once again, I want to point out that Sansa remaining standing for the duration of 10 seconds is almost an eternity in terms of cinema! The fact that Tyrion literally has to beg her to kneel does highlight that she is quietly refusing to make things easy for him because she is being forced into this marriage.

Her action is a piece of quiet resistance on her part but it is very subtle – so subtle that it is very easy to overlook unless you pay attention and think critically about the way that this scene plays out.

youtube

(The cloaking scene begins at timestamp 6:20)

After the cloaking, Tyrion and Sansa face the High Septon who proceeds with the ceremony. We get a close-up of Sansa with a downcast gaze as sighs audibly.

High Septon: We stand here in the sight of the Gods and to witness the union of man and wife. One flesh, one heart, one soul. Now and forever.

The scene ends here - and we don’t get to see the rest of the ceremony.

A CURIOUS OMISSION

Re-watching this scene, I noticed something odd. What is interesting here is the fact that the wedding ceremony doesn’t include the most important parts of the way that a wedding is conducted in the Light of the Seven:

The hand fasting.

The recitation of the wedding vows. (Father, Smith, Warrior, Mother, Maiden, Crone, Stranger. I am hers/his and she/he is mine, from this day, until the end of my days)

This omission becomes even more glaring in comparison with Edmure Tully’s wedding that takes place in the very next episode because this wedding scene includes ALL the ceremonial elements of a wedding performed in accordance with the religion of the Seven:

The cloaking of the bride.

The hand fasting where the hands of the couple is bound together.

The recitation of the traditional wedding vows.

It begs the question why the show omits these elements during the wedding of Sansa and Tyrion. One possibility is that the show didn’t want to depict two full wedding ceremonies back to back - but if that is the case, then why not show the full ceremony with Tyrion and Sansa since their wedding takes place in episode 8 and Edmure’s wedding takes place in episode 9. Yet it is Edmure’s wedding that shows all the elements of a Westerosi wedding in the Light of the Seven.

Furthermore, after investigating the issue further, it is worth noting that EVERY OTHER WEDDING performed in the Light of the Seven are all shown to include either the hand fasting and/or the reciting of the vows! Even in scenes where the wedding ceremony is truncated - like in the weddings of Margaery to first Joffrey and then to Tommen. Whether it is Robb/Talisa, Edmure/Roslin, Margaery/Joffrey, Margaery/Tommen or Rhaegar/Lyanna - the weddings always feature the hand fasting and/or the recitation of the wedding vows.

So I cannot help but conclude that the rather conspicuous omission of the two most binding elements of the wedding ceremony in Sansa and Tyrion’s wedding is not only by design but that it is also meaningful. Since their marriage is never consummated, its validity remains open to doubt and I wonder whether the omission of the crucial elements of a Westerosi wedding ceremony is a subtle hint that the marriage is a sham.

To be continued...

(GIFs not mine)

#game of thrones #sansa stark #winterfell's daughter #character analysis #tyrion lannister #joffrey baratheon

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wayward-hatchling · 6 years ago

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Another TED Talk About My Undying Support for Daenerys Targaryen

One of the only things I do enjoy about Daenerys’s arc on Game of Thrones is the conversation it has generated regarding governance, leadership, and morality. I’ve been reading and reading trying to wrap my head around this ending in a way that doesn’t feel so *ick*, and I’ve seen about a 50/50 split between camps of people who believe Dany represented war and violence in a story about how war and violence is very bad, and then people who think Dany represented revolutionary processes in a story about how central politics and nepotism will always reject sincere change. I think the conversation alone is profound enough for me to find some solace and closure in the finale.

Option 1 (War/Violence Dany) is *at least* satisfying in that it teaches us about the pointlessness of trying to bring positive change through violence. Even where we--the viewer--have had a full scope on Dany’s intent, background, and thought processes for almost her whole life, we know that there was a pointlessness to killing the entirety of King’s Landing (and potentially all of Westeros). We knew Dany could’ve just settled for taking the throne and engaging in revolution the hard way like she did in Slaver’s Bay, and we were all shocked and disappointed that she chose not to in the end--but narratively it can’t have been too surprising, because she absolutely hated the political process in Meereen.

We saw first-hand her hardship in trying the slow-burn method in Essos--a situation in which she was considered morally good because she was only trying to free slaves and create equality between classes. We saw how resistant the existing, remaining government was to change. We understood how messy making that type of change happen was for all involved (what with economic struggle, plagues, riots, coups, etc.), so there may have been a level of logic to trying her second revolution in Westeros a more ruthless way.

It was also made immediately clear to Dany that Westeros was not as interested in revolution as Slaver’s Bay was, since the poorest classes were technically free and independent and have consistently cared very little for their central government no matter what--this is a point made throughout the series and it was directly mentioned to Dany by Jorah Mormont.

"The common people pray for rain, health, and a summer that never ends. They don't care what games the high lords play."

In Essos, the poorest class was very emotionally invested in Daenerys’s success, which helped her launch her initial revolution. Add this into the fact that the smallfolk are much more invested in their nobility and local government, and that same local government consistently rejects any type of a central government to rule over them (Robert is killed by high lords plotting, Joffrey is killed by high lords plotting, Myrcella and Tommen are killed in the middle of high lords plotting, Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Margaery Tyrell and her family)....and well....Dany’s campaign would be a cocktail for failure if she tried to install herself as queen in a peaceful way. So instead, Daenerys asserting a forceful rule backed by a powerful, unstoppable weapon is definitely a way to bring the lords of Westeros to heel. You can’t plot against a mothaf**kin’ dragon! What she fails to realize is that doing so alone and unsupported and misunderstood is what makes her tyrannical--the people she’s trying to “save” are not in on the plan, and inevitably reject her and remove her too, because they think she’s just trying to come to power for power’s sake. She’s given them no reason or evidence to think otherwise yet. The nobility would also never want her revolution if it means the destruction of the status quo, and the people don’t care what happens either way if it doesn’t affect them.

Option 2 (Revolutionary/Che Guevara Dany) is interesting because it leaves Dany in the role of a tragic, misunderstood hero even more so than Option 1. In this vein of thought, Dany offered Cersei the chance to surrender, and Cersei instead tried to display herself as a threat. She tried to use innocents and weapons-manufacturing to deter Daenerys, and Dany made an example of her--she sent a clear message to Westeros that nothing would save them if they did not fall in line. There would be no plotting against her, and there would be absolutely no mercy if they engaged in their old games. The wheel would be broken whether the existing lords liked it or not. Perhaps this is cruel and forceful, but it would prevent the high lords from using their smallfolk again (”a mercy to the future generations”)--and would help the smallfolk see the invalidity of their existing government (a government that uses its people as an ineffective meat shield against a dragon queen.) The lords may not ever love her, but they wouldn’t be using their smallfolk to maintain their own power ever again. That is what’s important. The Starks showed us that love and loyalty does not a leader make. Ned Stark, Robb Stark, and Jon Snow all inevitably failed their people and directly caused them long-term suffering via war and unrest (right before the Great War wiped out an already-weakened north, no less!) Even our “just and good” northern lords have not helped the conditions of the smallfolk at all. They are inept.

The stellar thing here is that all of these points are corroborated by the most stable and just king Westeros has had in generations--Robert Baratheon!

He knows how the incompetent lords of Westeros would react to a Targaryen invasion.

From the smallfolk wiki page:

When Cersei Lannister asks Robert why he is so worried about the prospect of a Targaryen-aligned Dothraki army, he explains that should the Dothraki cross the Narrow Sea, the nobles can retreat to their castles, but then a great many of the smallfolk would be slaughtered and those that are left will turn on their absentee king and possibly decide to join Viserys.

He also knows how to keep them abiding by his rule:

"Honor? I've got Seven Kingdoms to rule! One king, Seven Kingdoms! Do you think honor keeps them in line? Do you think it's honor that's keeping the peace? It's fear! Fear and blood!"

Let it be fear!

I like this the most because it solidifies The Battle of King’s Landing as more-Hiroshima less-slaughterhouse--it immediately ended a long, horrifying war and prevented the escalation of worse types of warfare purely out of fear for an overwhelming weapon. This also implies that had Dany lived, she wouldn’t necessarily have to continue burning up cities, because the lords would already know what was coming for them. The central character perspectives in the finale made us believe Dany intended to burn other people, but that’s a relatively baseless assumption. (For example, she only crucified the masters when they crucified children to deter her campaign. She did not crucify masters when they revolted against her. She did execute one of them as a statement but could have slaughtered all of them to negate all opposition against her, if she were truly a mad, power-hungry queen. We also can’t even compare the two situations, since Daenerys was considerably less powerful at the time--having no Dothraki army, no extra allies or naval fleet, and no fully-grown, trained dragons yet. Her power at the end of GOT is enough to bring the lords in line on its own, without political statements and maneuvering.)

Furthermore, her disdain for the existing smallfolk of Westeros is explained when in comparison to those of Slaver’s Bay. These people really don’t give a s**t about making the world better, whereas the people of Slaver’s Bay follow Dany’s dream to the very end (and beyond).

The citizens of King’s Landing are completely indifferent towards supporting a disgusting human being like Cersei, whereas the people of Slaver’s Bay displayed passion and morality similar to what Dany is feeling. All these things together explain why Dany decides that “they don’t get to choose [what’s good.]” Because they just don’t care about good or bad for everyone else. They are the ones who let people like Joffrey, Cersei, and the Boltons take power with apathy. So only the people who do care get to decide what’s good for the world.

And FINALLY, for some additional thoughts, I like either of these points of conclusion for Dany’s arc and motivations because it helps create an idea of cosmic destiny. She was on the trajectory towards something massive and world-changing--the birth of her dragons, her visions, and epic journey full of magic and supernatural guidance all were pointing her towards some type of world change. It is the existing status quo--the darker, political side of humanity....the game--that kills her for it, despite her intentions and abilities.

(Perhaps there’s some divine intervention about to happen a la resurrection anyways!)

#game of thrones #daenerys #daenerys targaryen #i really am just making a dany stan blog rn #jesus i'm sorry #it's not my intention

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