#grrm criticism

[meanderingstar]

the way Daenerys treats Irri in the books is incredibly disturbing and I hate how it's overlooked by both the narrative and the majority of the fandom.

Daenerys uses Irri for sex at least twice over the course of the story, once in Storm and once in Dance. I really, truly cannot overstate how horrific the power imbalance between them is: Daenerys is her khaleesi, her queen and her employer; Irri was formerly a slave in her service and is now her maid with absolutely nowhere else to go. She has evidently been conditioned to believe that displaying absolute obedience to her higher-ups, including sexual services, is her "duty", which Daenerys recognizes and still actively exploits for her own pleasure. This is also why consent between them is utterly impossible – contrary to some asoiaf blogs who claim that consent was not a major issue in this situation (lol) or that Irri freely consented, Irri’s conditioning means that she will never be able to freely consent to someone like Daenerys, who is her employer and holds absolute power over her. Daenerys herself acknowledges this and feels guilty (damning in itself), but ends up using her in such a manner anyway, despite explicitly recognizing that Irri's kisses "tasted of duty" and nothing more.

What makes this even worse is that despite using her in this way in Storm, Daenerys has no issue saying that Irri and Jhiqui (who are her age and have had the same, if not worse, experiences than she has) are "only girls" in comparison to her. She also dismisses their (pretty sensible, imo?) concern about her touching sick and dead people by calling them "utter fools" and saying the Dothraki were only wise when it came to horses. She says all this AFTER sleeping with Irri, which makes it twice as bad - Daenerys considers her a little girl and a fool when it comes to advising her, but still finds it perfectly fine to use her for sex? This condescension extends to their sexual relationship as well, where Daenerys refers to Irri as "the maid", "her handmaid" and "the Dothraki girl" as she has sex with her. It's patronizing, disrespectful and exploitative at best, outright dehumanizing at worst.

While I highly doubt this was Grrm's intention, Daenerys's dynamic with Irri is clearly reminiscent of the horrific way Cersei uses Taena Merryweather. Dany is obviously not as vicious with Irri as Cersei was with Taena but that really doesn't change the fact that she was still a queen exploiting her employee's obedience and conditioned sense of "duty" for her own pleasure, made even worse by the fact that Irri, as a servant and former slave with no family, no connections and nowhere else to go, was 10x more vulnerable than Taena was and certainly more dependent on Dany. It's bizarre how Cersei's treatment of Taena is recognized as fucked up by most of the fandom but Daenerys's treatment of Irri is not, even though the power imbalance between them is infinitely worse. (also: Grrm writing about TWO white queens using their brown maids/ladies-in-waiting for sex is flat-out racist. I'm also extremely uncomfortable with how both wlw interactions are dubiously consensual at best and arguably revolve around Cersei/Dany's relationships with men to some extent: Cersei uses Taena to reenact her trauma by Robert, and Dany not only "pretended it was Drogo holding her...only somehow his face kept turning into Daario's" when she was having sex with Irri, but also explicitly states that "it was Daario she wanted, or perhaps Drogo, not Irri").

Certainly, Daenerys and Irri's dynamic is part and parcel of Grrm's fucked notion of consent and piss-poor writing of wlw relationships (both of which he should be called out for far more than he is, btw), but it doesn't change the fact that in-universe, these are Daenerys's textual actions. Grrm seems to believe that Drogo didn't rape Daenerys (a 13 year old who was forced into marriage) on their wedding night because she said "yes", just like he seems to believe that Jaime didn't coerce Cersei to have sex with him over their own son's dead body because she eventually responded to Jaime's advances, but I clearly recognize them as rape and coercion. The same logic and same standards apply to Daenerys and the way she uses and exploits Irri and she should be judged accordingly.

[katshuya]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is astonished with the very clever arguments and discussions Rhaelya's supporters write and the oh so-called neutrals who are just TOO LOGICAL to blame Rhaegar. He is just a grey character, and we just lack criticism.

How? Well!

Rhaegar isn't to blame because in a dream, he and other kingsguard said it was Jaime's fault. You see how logical it is? The author hints it, so it's the logic truth.

Jaime is the real reason why Elia and her children are dead because he was a kingsguard and being the single sole protector of Elia and her children against his father's army means nothing. Apparently, he can hold them all off with a single command.

Dragonstone is very safe from Aerys even though he is the king, and with single command, they could be brought to him.

Rhaegar took all kingsguard to the Trident because it was war. And in war, you need to win, so you take every knight to assure your winning and leave your family guarded with a single knight who is also under pressure of obeying the king and even if he didn't he is still outnumbered and could be killed or held off.

We can't blame Rhaegar for abandoning them in kingslanding. Why? Because he thought he was going to win! He had a plan. You see?!

And we can't blame him for the rebellion. Why? Because in a different scenario in my mind, it could have been sparked by someone else in different ways! So we can't blame the people responsible for the original scenario.

Anything George says or thinks is the right and logical one, and we can't criticize it for being ridiculous. Because the writer is always right about what he writes. I mean, so what if he thinks dany x drogo was hella sexy? We should think it so, too!

Daemon killing his wife is grey morality.

And many other things, he says, but let's not get into that for now.

So yes. If George says something is logical, then it's logical.

It's very natural for Elia not to feel sad or humiliated when Rhaegar goes to another girl, especially after endangering her life to give him the prophecy children one after another. Her PaLAtOnIC feelings toward him made her ready to risk her life in that certain way. One after another when she had delicate health. She endangered herself with no rest between pregnancies because of these PALATONIC feelings! She wanted to be queen, which is what made her do that, too. There is absolutely no way for her to be hurt. That's just ilogical. Especially for a Dornish.

I read a post from a proclaimed neutral, and oh my god. I just don't understand the ability of these people to write these posts and not feel embarrassed with how logical and unbiased they are.

Let me tell you something. Someone who claims logic will not say Rhaegar never hurt Elia with Lyanna and/or she was totally fine with it.

That's a covered lie. They just like Rhaegar way more than Elia. Not necessary a stan. Simply like him and want others to believe in that supposed logic.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

"Dany is nothing like her ancestors and she is going to break the pattern by going to be a good queen."- Dany stans. Only they don't acknowledge that she is repeating her ancestors mistakes. Basically her whole arc is why Targs sucked.

“Däny is nothing like her ancestors…” Better not tell her that:

I am blood of the dragon, she told herself. I am Dænerys Stormborn, Princess of Dragonstone, of the blood and seed of Aegon the Conqueror. —AGOT Dâny II

I am Dænerys Stormborn, Dænerys of House Targaryen, of the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and old Valyria before them. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you, these men will die screaming. Now bring me to Khal Drogo." —AGOT Dâny IX

Remind your Good Master of who I am. Remind him that I am Dænerys Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, the Unburnt, trueborn queen of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. My blood is the blood of Aegon the Conqueror, and of old Valyria before him." —ASOS Dâny II

Mother of dragons, Dænerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I. —ADWD Dâny II

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "Fire and Blood," Dænerys told the swaying grass. —ADWD Dâny X

Dæny constantly invokes her ancestors/bloodline as well as her dragons to keep herself brave, to impress others, to remind herself of who she is. Her last chapter has her embracing that Tárg legacy (specifically the one that plants no trees aka destruction), not turning away from it for a lasting peace. The Tárg legacy (or at least her idea of it) is a huge part of her character; you can’t say she’s nothing like her ancestors when she keeps invoking their memory and refuses to listen about any of the ill they (not even Aerys II) did.

“She’s going to break the pattern by being a good queen” there’s certain Tárg kings who are considered good rulers, such as Jæhaerys I and Viserys II. GRRM went out of his way in Fire&Blood to show how awful J1 was (to the dismay of a few fans), hanging small folk by their entrails and mistreating his wife/daughters; and he made sure in ASOS that Oberyn Martell accused V2 of poisoning his nephew. Then there’s Dâron 2 and Aègon V, who fandom considers good, but both caused massive rebellions and A5’s obsession with dragons led him to an early grave. Basically every time there’s a Tàrg that’s supposed to be a good ruler, GRRM ends up showing they’re either violent/murderous, abusive, paranoid, prophecy-obsessed, and kinslayers, not unlike the other Tárgs.

“Basically her whole arc is why the Tárgs suck” you’re right that the Tárg legacy is destructive and holds itself up as superior to the exclusion of others. It’s one of the reasons why I don’t like GRRM’s supplemental books on them (other than being a massive downgrade in characters/plot), because their point was already proven with Dâny, and trying to make sorta competent kings confuses the issue (J1 planted trees/built roads, so there’s still a way for D to honor her family but be a good ruler, when it ignores the context of how the Iron Throne was founded). Basically Dâny has a good arc using the Tárg legacy and dragons to give her the courage she lacked growing up, and struggling to balance her wishes for peace with her reality of trying to take the Throne she views as birthright by conquest, all on her own. But I guess GRRM needs more money and HBO needs more to milk out of the franchise.

[sweetestpopcorn]

You know that time when Alysanne didn't want to have any more kids but Jaehaerys replied by saying that their mother had kids even in her 40s? (From what I can remember, don't remember the exact words) I wish Alysanne had replied by saying 'well, and she died during childbirth'. I mean what was Jaehaerys thinking when he said that? Or rather what was George thinking? It's just baffling to me.

"What was George thinking?" Is a running theme since 2022, since before actually, but the past year really brought a... LOT to light. His lack of awareness is baffling... that or he is a good liar... or really likes his d:ck sucked and would say yes to anything. It did, however, make much clear about Fire and Blood. And I think we at times give him too much credit of "he knows how wrong this is"... yeah... not so sure about that... not sure at all.

Also, Jae honey, you know you can at least pull out or get Alysanne some moon tea. You can still get l_id without getting your babe pregnant. It will be even more fun I promise.

[alishaaxo]

GRRM maybe u can say shit when u write more books!

chop chop author boy‼️

asoiaf tag is hitting 100k now, and I’m extra happy out of spite for fanfic-hating grrm 🫶

Googled GRRM and damn okay

I hate hate hate when writers have a stick up their ass about fanfiction as though it hasn't been going on for literal centuries.

It's not like anyone's making money off it; they're doing it because they enjoy it and it brings people together.

Not to mention sometimes you sell your work to shitty writers who give your story a terrible ending and fans have no choice but to fix it themselves.

[gojuo]

GRRM's newest blog post

[catholicat]

george martin should be kinder with fanfic writers considering the fact that he gives his works to be adapted by people who do a worse job at writing his characters than his own fans

[amaltheas-garden]

drag them bb girl

[katshuya]

In whatever scenario, Rhaegar carries huge blame. Lyanna only if she agreed without caring for Elia's feelings and her children's claim. What really confuses me is Arthur Dayne. Was he really fine with all of this?

I know George love "grey" characters, but he says that then makes them really dark or at least unlikable when he intended for them to be likable as actually good, but flawed people.

Whatever the whole story is, I know George really messed up, and if he finishes writing, we will not be pleased with how he handled it. I really don't trust this man and his critical thinking.

SCENARIOS OF R+L from an anti r+l elia fan trying to defend and understand them

Now i did go on a rant about whats wrong with the rhaegar-lyanna relationship, and thats what i believe the strongest, there is some discrepancies and possible other scenarios that could have happened, especially since we know essentially nothing truly about robert’s rebellion. Let’s explain my thoughts on possible situations that could’ve occured.

1. Rhaegar needed an “ice women” in order to fulfill a song of ice and fire and hell with the wights.= Okay, so I do understand this, however I just think that this scenario undermines the fallacies of prophecy which is such an intergral part of asoiaf. Dany is so clearly imo the Promised Prince, meaning Rhaegar’s mission to create one was unnecessary. When it comes to this belief, I think Rhaegar believing this, making Jon and candidate for tptwp is a complete red herring, to show how the knowledge of prophecies does not mean that everything will run smoothly. And when it comes to this situation, there’s numerous smaller diverging scenarios too!

a. Lyanna and Elia were aware of Rhaegar’s beliefs and were in support= I don’t really think this makes much sense. If Elia and Lyanna were both aware, surely Rhaegar could’ve also told people other than a 14 year old and his wife, possibly involving Rickard Stark who literally would be in charge of the Night Watch where the wights and long night of winter would occur from. It feels more likely that he told Elia snippets, as shown during Dany’s vision of Aegon Vi’s birth, and left, seducing a willful young Lyanna with tales of love, never speaking of his true intentions, yet ultimately failing in his goal. Perhaps he could’ve fell in love with Lyanna during their travels and time spent in the TOJ, in a “forced proximity romance” sort of thing, yet I feel like if Lyanna was aware of any potential danger to the North, as much as I critique her, she would’ve told her family, after all they could be murdered by wights at anytime since she has great love for her family, so leaving them, while she was aware of upcoming calamities, makes Lyanna in this idea seem even worse than I think is most likely.

b. Rhaegar needs an “ice women” but doesn’t inform Lyanna= This just makes Rhaegar look like a worse man in regards to Lyanna. Adding onto how I personally feel the stark-targaryen ice-fire combo is just a red herring for Dany as the true ptwp, if this is how he envisioned the prophecy, he still has blame. While he takes Lyanna intent of saving the world from doom, the existence of Jon (i love him but…) is completely unnecessary in the context of the prophecy. With this scenario, which feels more likely to me, Lyanna is portrayed as most likely a girl who was seduced by Rhaegar spinning sweet tales of love, perhaps involving prophecy talks of “icy starks” and “hotd-blooded fiery targs” yet didn’t tell her the full prophecy,and he tragically pushed her, a young girl into a fate of death. Which gives the best perception of Lyanna I think personally and is what I believe occured (though Lyanna would still have partial blame for her circumstances), but makes Rhaegar a cunning man who seduced a fourteen year old for his own goals, even if he believed that could save the world and causing her death, away from the comforts of her home, bloodied and with her brother and father murdered.

2. Rhaegar and Lyanna genuinely fell in love during the TOH, and bonded in natural love= This perception just makes them feel extra selfish to me. Duty is such a big them within ASOIAF, while so running away from duties and Robert’s future wife is kinda valid, Rhaegar as the heir to such a tumultuous King, would be strongly aware of his duties. As heir to a controversial King, Rhaegar should be very diplomatic, engaging in politics, engaging with nobles+smallfolk and being involved with his family, so him running off is very selfish and worse than if he did so to “save the world”, since he is running away from his responsibilities which are so vital to the Realm.

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

I feel like it shouldn't need to be said, but a relatively faithful adaptation of the source material is actually a very normal and reasonable thing for both an author and that author's fanbase to want. People can sneer about book purists all they want but it's the rare adaptation that surpasses the original, and HotD does not even come close.

[witheredoffherwitch]

"In Ryan's outline for season 3, Helaena still kills herself... for no particular reason" FUCKING HELL, George is really letting it rip lmaooooooo 💀

I'm so glad that he's addressing the "helaena conundrum" here because it perfectly aligns with my previous hotd-critical post. The fandom has rightfully torn into Alicent for days now, but conveniently overlooks the fact that Helaena's story is beyond redemption atp - she's nothing more than a meaningless pawn in the story. These writers have completely butchered one of the most tragic figures from the Dance era and reduced her to a pathetic meme in the TV show.

Helaena's death was the tipping point for Rhaenyra's downfall (and ultimately, the conclusion of this civil war). But that infuriating scene in episode 8 completely undermines its importance - her death is now rendered utterly meaningless in the show!

[meanderingstar]

hey remember when grrm wrote this: 

Though plumper and less striking than most Targaryens, Helaena was a pleasant, happy girl, and all agreed she would make a fine mother.

and this:

The weight that Rhaenyra gained during her pregnancies never entirely left her, and by the time her youngest boy was born, she had grown stout and thick of waist, the beauty of her girlhood a fading memory, though she was but twenty years of age.

being fat or putting on weight automatically means that you’re plain or less beautiful than you used to be, because weight is apparently a synonym and number one measure of attractiveness, I guess?

[katshuya]

Many people like to say Elia and Arthur had something going on either

1-to justify Rhaegar x Lyanna

2-to give some joy to her story.

But honestly, how good can it be? I mean, ship what you want, but I'm talking about that if we imagined it to be a CANON thing, it wouldn't be pleasant due to the events surrounding the canon scenario.

Arthur abandoned her. You can't tell me that a love story with a man who abandons you to help your husband cheat is a great one even if you didn't like your husband. It is still unnerving for the woman.

Yes, I do wish his sad smile is out of guilt for what happened to Elia and her children but still in Jaime's fever dream it was only Rhaegar and Lewyn that talked about Elia and the children.

Arthur talked about killing the king.

I'm not saying this doesn't mean he didn't regret what happened to them. I'm saying it doesn't encourage the idea that there was anything between them. Which is what I want. Because this will be disgusting of GRRM to do to justify what has been done to her.

Elia went as a child on a tour to Starfall. Perhaps she could have been matched with Arthur, but most likely his older brother. Since she was the princess, it was only normal to look for the firstborn child who would become lord one day.

Whatever happened in Starfall didn't end up in any agreement since Elia's mother tried after that to match her with Jaime.

What we know is that in the end, Elia likes Baelor Hightower the most during that tour.

And why didn't Arthur just stay with Elia instead of becoming a kingsguard before her marriage if there was anything truly between them? It doesn't make sense. Are you telling me he abandoned her for kingsguard as tennagers? Or that he decided to fall in love with her after he became a kingsguard? Still no sense.

Also, I firmly believe and I could be wrong that Arthur's character will be that he was not the type to break his oath easily to love a woman. I have feeling he was a hardass. Jon Connington already hinted that. Besides, he was described as someone who took his vows seriously.

Again, I don't mind the shipping nor the fanfictions. Some fanarts are really cute, and I admit I read some and enjoyed it.

But in the CANON scenario, how much better was he than Rhaegar toward Elia? The best scenario would be that he wanted to return but couldn't because Rhaegar's place would be discovered in a case where Rhaegar only ran to save lyanna, then *accidentally* decided to take things further.

Besides, why would Rhaegar let Elia have a secret lover when he will be one day a king? This will affect him as a king in the eyes of the noble men. Why would Elia or Arthur risk that, too?

And even if they were star-crossed lovers that can only love each other from afar....doesn't the "my best friend is married to the woman I love and is having children with her one after another despite her delicate health but he is a good man who will take good care of her" sounds awful?

Why would Arthur be liked as a lover in the CANON scenario where he let Rhaegar harm Elia after using her to the point that she could die if she got pregnant again then he let Rhaegar humilate her again with Lyanna all so Rhaegar might agree that he can be with Elia???

He sounds too lame like this. Ok, grey, but extremely lame man and character. Too lame for that great swordman.

Yes, the characters are supposed to be grey, but honestly, how are we supposed to like something unlikable? Just because it's grey doesn't mean it's likable. Arthur isn't supposed to be a horrible man as far as I glimpsed.

I mean, Euron, for example, is supposed to be a horrible, cruel man, and we are supposed to like him as a horrible, cruel character.

But things like, Rhaegar is supposed to be likable as good grey character when he did certain things that normally for many humans they make him unlikable or R x L is supposed to be likable despite all the things of how they came to be. All feel unlikable because of the contradiction. It's not about greyness. They just don't match their intended purpose of view.

It's like the famous saying of "Daemon is so grey that he is between good and bad. And his morals are so grey"

Seriously, this guy has a very dark shade.

I'm not team black nor team green, so don't come to fight. I only observe the characters.

So what is there to be liked about this ship IN THE CANON scenario? Not in fanfictions where he actually returned or refused leaving her.

If there is anything I would like to know. Do tell me.

I prefer Arthur to be regretful about how he abandoned his princess and her children greyness. This seems more likable grey than lame Arthur, who left the woman he loves to Rhaegar's whims THEN abandoned her and her children alone for almost 2 years in danger to help her husband humiliate her further for prophecy and his not like other girls 15 years old girl, dark lame greyness. The previous makes Arthur more likable as character.

Again, I don't mind the ship as long as it is not Canon. Because it will be a disgusting way that shows Rhaegar as less guilty in the eyes of many just because she loved another, so he looks less accountable for abandoning them. When even in such a cringy scenario, he is not. Even if Elia loved another/didn't love him.

In conclusion, all of the above is why Arthur can not be used to justify R X L nor to make Elia's story better or less sad in the CANON events. And why it's not realistic and impossible that DORNISH Elia committed treason and very unlikely that she had even an emotional affair.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

"The bedding had seemed wonderfully wicked and exciting when Sansa was a girl, but now that the moment was upon her she felt only dread."- Sansa(ASOS III). Why would a young girl seems excited over bedding ceremony? Also Sansa is talking as if she is grown-up when she is still a child. Sometimes I wonder what grrm is thinking.

In GRRM’s slight defense, when Sansa is feeling a little at ease with men (Garlan, Harry, the Waynwoods), she’s not opposed to a little back-and-forth sass, so at least some of the japing wouldn’t terrify her (although older men making gross comments about her body does, as is being forcibly stripped naked); plus she romanticized getting married when she was younger, and I guess the bedding is a part of that (but she didn’t link it with sex because she’s still a girl, although Cersei et al talking about bedding is bringing it up). Then there’s her usage of the word “wicked”, which she used previously comparing herself to Arya (when she and Jeyne stayed up late after stealing a pie from the kitchens, when she went to Cersei to explain she was leaving) and later talking about Petyr (speaking about his own bedding ceremony, where “he gave as good as he got” to the women undressing him. I guess that’s what younger Sansa had imagined the vibe of the bedding) and Marillion, so I’m guessing in her mind the bedding was supposed to be improper for a lady, but in a fun way. Then Sansa is exposed to the uglier parts of the bedding with men tearing at her clothes, groping, and gross sexual comments, and she’s dreading the idea.

Of course, this all discounts that Sansa isn’t even 13 in this scene, yet she’s speaking like someone much older (I know Sansa thinks she’s a woman, but 12 is still well below the age of ASOIAF majority). It wouldn’t be the last time in the chapter that GRRM has her talk like this: “Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire.” The idea that she’d be thinking about Tyrion in a sexual context (even a negative one) is a little much (the most racy thought she has is skimming Loras’ bare chest; grown up physical intimacy just isn’t there). But GRRM said that Dâny’s wedding night wasn’t rape (though she couldn’t meaningfully consent), so he doesn’t always have acceptable opinions regarding the sexual thoughts of tween/young teen girls.

[synchodai]

i am genuinely unfollowing and unsubscribing asoiaf "content creators" turning on grrm for being "unprofessional" and telling him "to shut up and finish winds." thank you for telling me that you don't care about the author's vision as long as you get more soulless seasons and shows to turn into tiktok theory vids and ship fodder. thank you for letting me know that you are more concerned about HBO's ability to churn out half-baked slop and want TWOW now regardless of how it reflects the author's creative message and how happy he is with it. thank you for letting me know that you see asoiaf as primarily a content mill for you to profit off of and you will turn on anyone who threatens the content mill, even the very person who made the world and characters you claim to love so much.

[gojuo]

so wow it is confirmed that the original contracts for the rights to adapt the main asoiaf books into one tv show that grrm signed with hbo back in the 2000s also included signing away the rights to every single asoiaf related adaptation? man that sucks. i always thought it was a rumor not the actual truth.