#the things he did for kdj.........

[orviposition]

yoo joonghyuk is lucky kim dokja said that no matter how dirty or smelly or unkept yoo joonghyuk is he would still look hot because the entirety of astronaut arc raises some extreme concerns regarding yoo joonghyuk's personal hygiene

[lacecap]

If you happen to lose or misplace something on the train or in a station, fill in our lost property form with as much detail as possible about your item. Please make sure you take all your belongings with you when you leave the train.

[jfkisonthemoon]

people will really write yjh as a dom as if hes not a thing made to be used and discarded

[cyndaquillt]

KDJ's lack of 'talent' while learning skills from Lycaon (and later Kyrgios Rodgraim) really drive in the fact that he's got this far solely by swindling coins out of the system and investing them in his stats. Learning a skill through traditional means is not his cup of tea and it's so fun and refreshing to read a story with a protag who actually cannot benefit from a training arc

[pttucker]

[Constellation, 'Mass Production Maker', says that you must enter the 123rd Gate.] …123rd? But, there shouldn't be anyone there? I focused on the blurry images of the battlefield that could be seen from the Gate. And then… "What the f…?" …I immediately issued a new order to advance. "All personnel, we march through the 123rd Gate!"

Anna Croft glared at the item with suspicious eyes. "What is that?" "I got it as a gift not too long ago." "A gift? …That?" I was at a loss again as to how I should explain this. Actually, this item was a 'not-for-sale' bonus article available only during the "Kim Dokja's Company Collaboration" event held by 'Mass Production Maker' just before the 'Great War of Saints and Demons' went underway. I remembered that those who purchased a brand-new [Ferrarghini] received this on a first-come-first-served basis. I can still vividly recall the conversation I had with the 'Mass Production Maker' back then.

Mass Production Maker can totally see the future, can’t he?

Or someone he knows (and who is willing to help both him and Dokja) can see it.

First we had that whole oddly relevant conversation with Dokja about the wrong road, and now not only was he waiting to immediately jump in and tell Dokja to go to the other gate, but it just so happens that the very strange promotional item he gave to Dokja a while back has the exact healing effect needed to save Joonghyuk. Hmmm.

The former can be excused as him being an ally who’s closely watching the battle (though strange that he’s the only one who said anything but maybe Dokja’s other regulars are distracted or even actively involved in the battle itself) but the latter is so suspicious.

[borealiszero]

There should be a scenario where kim dokja is given a plushie of yoo joonghyuk and the goal was to express his feelings, cue on to scenes of him taking plushie yjh on nature walks, to the beach, drinking coffees at cute little coffeeshop, and at the end of the day he bathed him and tuck the plushie into his bed and give it lil kisses. All the while yoo joonghyuk himself was there.

[lee-hakhyun]

your summary of the latest ch gave me chills ngl can’t wait to read ur translation too!! jung munho… is he dead?

yeah. there's no saving him now

these deaths are.. really not doing good to lhh's mental state. for me, it's honestly harder to read than the main story... kdj's deaths were all justified in his own pov, it really cushions everything for the reader. but this.. lhh is seeing his readers die in front of him, and his reactions are heartbreaking

[hiruseki]

god i seriously am never getting over That Scene in orv. kim dokja has so little compassion for himself that the only thing he can think to do upon being confronted with the most powerless, frightened, vulnerable version of himself is to try and murder it with his own hands. even when everyone is sobbing and begging him to stop, even when everyone has already forgiven him without reservation, even when yoo motherfucking pilgrim of the apocalypse joonghyuk cannot muster any animosity, kdj will not stop trying to convince them this trembling little boy needs to die. it had been well established by that point that kdj is self destructive and self loathing, but he was good at maintaining some emotional distance from his actions. but the moment he steps off that train, recognizes his own drawings, realizes what's happened, that impassive veneer shatters and he becomes desperate and vicious. this man hates himself so much. seriously, can you imagine how it must have felt to be oldest dream? you're an abused, lonely, depressed child. profoundly alone in this world, betrayed by everyone you've ever loved. you are so frightened of everything you can't bear to live in reality. you meet yourself from the future, but even he has no sympathy for you. no, he hates you. he hates you so much he wants to kill you. he would point a broken sword at his own throat if it meant he could erase you. you don't know what you did wrong. you never do. all you can do is cower from the monster and hope he doesn't get you.

like it's so fucked up. orv is so fucked up.

[orphiclovers]

its crazy it's insane that yoo joonghyuk ends up doing the same fucked up things other people have done to him to kim dokja, out of love

he really said we're not breaking the cycle!!

its the most obvious in the 46th scenario, where he tries to betray kim dokja, just like anna croft did to him last regression, in exactly the same spot even. because he couldnt bear to see kim dokja die again, even if he has to act like his worst enemy.

'he doesnt eat food made by others' cause he got poisoned once and became paranoid that people would mess with his food, but then he goes along with kimcoms decition to secretly drug kim dokja. out of love! and cause he couldnt bear to see him rush into danger again, even if he has to do this thing that broke his trust in others forever.

and then, during the epilogue he writes a novel with kim dokja as the protagonist... when he spent his whole life trying to break free of the chains of the narrative and found out his whole life's suffering was because he was character in a novel he didnt consent to be written (even if he forgave that later) and then he goes on and does the same thing to kdj?

he who is the protagonist of Ways of Survival, knows intimately that you cant capture the true essence of someone in a novel, has asserted that many times to kim dokja himself, they fought about it, etc. yet now he helps write orv in the hopes thats somehow that's not true, with the impossible wish that kdj gets brought to life whole from their incomplete knowledge of him in ANOTHER NOVEL???????

[its-your-mind]

I’m sorry I need to talk about this for a second

This part right here. When Nirvana tries to use Thought Infection on Kim Dokja. And this ability that absolutely neutralized Yoo Joonghyuk, Min Jiwon, and Yoo Sangah…

just…

bounces right off.

and it’s set up like this big badass moment. Kim Dokja saves the day again. Kim Dokja can face down anyone. He’s more powerful than every other incarnation and constellation, no matter how much foreknowledge they have.

But honestly?

It kinda just makes me sad.

yjh is incapacitated by the Eternal Nightmare ability because of all the awful things he’s seen and experienced, yes.

But as we know from 1863, happy memories can be much more debilitating for him than sad ones. And while he’s only got 1-2’s memories right know, we know that 2 had some incredibly happy memories to pass on, memories that make the losses that much harder to take.

And Min Jiwon?

Of course she doesn’t actually want to visit a spa while her friends and troops are dying. But can you blame her for having some deep craving for comfort and relaxation right now?

But for Kim Dokja…

The Fourth Wall isn’t just protecting kdj from the negative effects of the skill. It’s not hiding his secret desires, or absorbing his emotions.

It is literally preventing him from experiencing the world around him as reality. Not just because it feels improbable or surreal, but because it is literally keeping him separate from the world around him. On a fundamental level, he does not believe he is truly present in this time and space.

This is derealization and dissociation on an unbelievably intense scale.

“If we’re just characters, why did you die for us so many times?”

Why wouldn’t he? He’s not here, not really. He’s just Reading this story, no matter how much sway he’s been having over what has happened. All of that is just his work as a Reader hoping to see the Epilogue of his favorite novel.

“It was a really great story, isn’t that right?”

Narratively satisfying. A twist ending. A fate that subverted expectations.

An Epilogue worth Reading. Not touching, not feeling, not joining, not creating. Just watching. From a distance away. From behind glass. Through the cracks in a wall.

After all, a story can’t exist without a writer, a protagonist, and a reader. Only two of them truly participate in creating the story. But when you’re the Reader, it’s always worth reading the story again. And again. And again. And again. And again ,

[lunaxstrange]

Can we talk about love in orv?

[SPOILERS]

Okay so, I am aware that Kdj loves the "story" but I really wanna point some things out individually because it's 2am and ORV is on my mind.

Kdj had the easiest way out of the 1863rd turn. The most perfect turn (at the time) but he really went I'd let the world burn for Yjh? Yeah, everything is "part of his plan" but let's talk about the 73rd Demon King arc. My man would do anything to make sure Yjh finishes his story. Apart from this, it's the fact that while everyone else dislike any other version of Yjh (even he hates himself lol), Kdj loves every. single. one. I mean 3rd turn (1864th) Yjh? Yes. Hsy's 1863rd turn? Yes. Frickin' Secretive Plotter? Got off to a rough start but yes. You simply cannot make Kdj hate his beloved protagonist. I mean, this man risked his whole existence to make sure the 0th turn is actually the most perfect one. He didn't want Yjh to regress but became his sponsor anyway because it's what Yjh wanted. He would do anything to see Yjh happy. This type of love isn't romantic or platonic or anything else, it's the most inexplicable form of love. Love in its purest form. I'd like to take the time to compare it to Achilles and Patroclus because while we can fight over whether these two were gay or not, we cannot deny the sheer love they had for each other. No strings attached. Kdj is in awe of Yjh.

Yjh. The regressor. The protagonist. The person Kdj loves the most. Yjh had everything (0th turn) but he really gave it all up just to meet Kdj. Suffered the "Hell of eternity" just to see him. Bro didn't even love Lsw the way he loves Kdj. Tbf, 0th turn Yjh didn't know what the real struggle of passing the scenarios without help was but I'm sure he got the gist. Okay, sure, you can call it "curiosity" that led to Yjh keeping Kdj alive during the 3rd (1864th) turn. But my guy didn't choose Kdj to go to Peace Land because he had "someone he loved" like bro, YJH!? THE COLD REGRESSOR??? HE DID THAT FOR KIM DOKJA! Not to mention the fact that Yjh didn't even care that his whole life was a mere novel. He just despised the fact that Kdj chose the 1863rd turn over him. I'm gonna cry. Bro wanted Kdj so bad that he kept fighting the Secretive Plotter. Not only this, he gave up the 3rd (1864th) turn for Kdj too. Went from Supreme King to terrorist just to save Kdj. When everyone else - even Hsy - gave up. After all, what is a protagonist without a reader? The whole astronaut ordeal might've been to "find his purpose" but we can't ignore their connection. He gave up everything he could ever ask for twice (0th and 3rd/1864th turn) for Kdj. The attachment these two have with each other is insane.

I could go on about them for eternity but we have another person to talk about - Hsy. This woman spent 10 years exhausted, stuck in a world-line and body not her own for one person. Even if it's only Hsy with half her memories, she gave up her perfect world-line because she missed Kdj. Just like Kdj loves Yjh, Hsy also loves every version of Kdj. She wanted to meet him, no matter what the world-line. My girl had only a few hours where she was in control and decided to use off all those hours to write TWSA - a story she herself disliked. Hsy wants to see Kdj happy, every part of Hsy loves Kdj. There is nothing a writer could love more than an avid reader who loves their story. And let's talk about the fact that Yjh and Hsy absolutely hate each other. He is literally her creation (more or less) but their relationship is questionable. Why? Because a protagonist has no value without a reader. Kinda like Asuka Ren and Kyrgios Rodgraim. They have no special relationship despite being creator and creation. Since there is no reader, Asuka and Kyrgios are as distant as two people can be. Alternatively, what brings Hsy and Yjh together is Kdj.

I just can't get enough of the way ORV relationships are written. If I had to describe love as a writer, I'd cite ORV as an example.

[insomaniacat]

orv spoilers

tbh I'm so happy there is no explicit romance in orv (minus the brief stuff that happens with jhw and lhs) and because of that I feel like I've been able to appreciate kdj in such a profound way as a character

like sure i like joongdok and yoohankim but to me at least kdj has this level of asexuality to him that I don't usually associate him with anyone that romantically. And their relationships are still as complex and has such a great depth that they are like THE foundest of families and I can return to the kim dokja company at the end of the day as all of them being my comfort characters. you know that saying like 'i love you so much i'd make the world burn for you'? it's meant to be this dramatic line about how much you love someone (romantically), but kdj's company fully encapsulates this in a platonic way that just isn't cringey or anything like that

they are all so platonic but they love each other to such an unconditional way that they ALL decide to relive through all the scenarios again in the hope of finding kim dokja again. and later, they all help to write and spread a story - stories, the thing the reader loves - again, in hopes of bringing kdj back home. they aren't sure if it'll work, but it is through this love they all have that they don't give up and put their hope in this seemingly impossible method

and this is also what makes them fundamentally different from kdj. unlike kim dokja in the apocalypse, they do not have any sort of proof their methods will work. kdj has twsa - the novel he grew up reading, the novel he fantasized living in, the novel that he's spent 13 years following, learning every nook and cranny and probably even planning out his own way to survive the apocalypse from this lengthy novel. he has some sort of assurance his methods will work, with the amount of time hsy put into describing the settings (remember that twsa was not popular and one of the complaints was that tls123 put too much emphasis on the settings that deterred people from reading it, when really, that too was a way to ensure kdj survived the apocalypse later on). he has had time to reassure himself and plan for it, and probably had yjh case test them all

but kdj's company had no assurance - they did not grow up with a book that confirmed their methods of bringing kdj back would work. they did not have any 'third plans', no 'ressurections', no 'restarts', that kdj had in the apocalypse. all they had was their own hope - something kdj didn't have when he was fifteen sitting in that hospital bed after that failed suicide attempt, feeling like the whole world was against him. Until he searched up those three words on his phone. Those three words that were probably 'Ways of Survival'.

And then he found his hope in twsa. he found his hope in yjh, the protagonist made just for him. he found hope in the story that he believed in for the next thirteen years. the story that got him through high school, the CSATs, the military. his hope was in this tangible book that carried him through the apocalypse.

kdj's company had none of that. they only had their hope in kim dokja - the man they survived the scenarios with. they could only put their hope in their memories of surviving with the man that saved them, even though there was no evidence he lived in their world anymore. they had to put their hope in the fact that they remembered he existed, even though they had to acknowledge that they didn't know everything about him.

sing shong touches upon this idea a lot throughout orv - does something really exist if no one knows about it? or, in a more modern saying, did a fallen tree in a forest really fall if no one heard it? what proves the existence of something? what proves that something truly happened? sing shong seems to make it pretty clear that the existence of something can be represented metaphorically like a 'story', and stories need a 'reader', some sort of spectator that witnesses it, for the 'story' to exist.

for kim dokja, his final sacrifice, where he split into infinite little pieces scattered across the universe, was to ensure that everything existed. that open ending, as tragic as it was, was meant to be comforting. that his sacrifice was supposed to be so existences like you and me, are real. no matter how lonely we may feel throughout our lives, a metaphorical 'kim dokja' is looking at our own stories, spectating our own stories, even living our own lives himself.

and what i hate to say sometimes is that kim dokja is not really a character - he is an idea. he is an idea of some being affirming our lives, that it's real, that what we do from day to day, even something as simple as getting up in the mornings and brushing your teeth, or thumbing through a store catalog, matters. and this is why kim dokja sacrificed himself. for all the stories that may have not 'existed' if no one was watching it.

and it's out of love. this tragic, terrible love for the world, that eats away at yourself until you are nothing. but at least you exist.

[cyndaquillt]

I love love love how well written Lee Sookyoung's character is specifically for a mother or parental figure. She is the protag's mother and things she did in life do center around that role but when she's near death and her 'thema' needs to be treated, Kim Dokja isn't enough. His role as her son doesn't make him automatically qualified to fix her thema. Reducing women, especially mothers or mother figures, to their role as protectors or ploys to further the narrative of the protag isn't uncommon, despite it being a cop out. It's something very many well-written media resort to and I certainly wouldn't have questioned if ORV pulled a 'despite their broken relationship, Kim Dokja knew his mother's soul' because at this point the story has shown me so much of his suffering as a son and LSY's regrets as a mother that I'm rooting for a storyline like that. But ORV doesn't do that. Instead it is fair to Lee Sookyoung, doesn't reduce her to a plot point in Kim Dokja's story, and instead gives her the multidimensionality she very much deserves by making her prison friends and even HSY a part of her salvation. She left KDJ and lived part of her story with people unknown to him and simply regretting and reconnecting isn't going to undo all that. KDJ left the Star Stream and then went to the 1863rd round leaving LSY with HSY and YSA and KDJ has no stake in the connections Kimcom made with each other during that time just because he's back now.

LSY and all ORV women are multidimensional and it's so beautiful to me that it makes me cry

[pttucker]

His voice was fading away, yet it was definitely not the voice of a man preparing himself for death. Almost at the same time, roars of crackling thunders could be heard coming from the far side of the heavens. They did not belong to Indra's thunderbolts. The space-time was distorting, and the noises were generated by something crossing over a gigantic Gate. Yoo Joonghyuk couldn't see that spectacle, but Anna Croft witnessed it in his stead. It was an army enveloped in pitch-black darkness; a single realm buried deep inside an ancient Myth was currently crossing over to this world. – Yoo Joonghyuk, you stupid bastard!! Yoo Joonghyuk heard the loud yelling from the one standing at the forefront of that army and spoke up. "…Because I have allies in this turn who won't betray me." [Nebula, < Underworld >, has joined the 'Great War of Saints and Demons'.]

Joonghyuk! You’re not allowed to yell at Dokja when you do stupid stuff like this!!!

Awww, but he trusted Dokja to come in time to save him.

BUT STILL DON’T DO THINGS LIKE THIS JOONGHYUK!

But also that was awesome and Dokja is totally gonna fanboy super hard over you destroying one of the strongest constellations of Vedas in a single strike. Right after he gets done cursing you out and grumbling with Sooyoung about what an idiot you are.

THIS WAS NOT PART OF THE PLAN JOONGHYUK!

But it was very Protagonist of you.

[localapparently]

/ Orv novel ch 489 spoilers

[ Story, 'Saviour of the Star', is having a chat with the Story, 'Insect King' ]

Girl i will never recover from this chapter. the whole "gilyoung is jealous of yoosung" and "gilyoung would also put his life on the line and sign a contract with his sponsor to protect yoosung" breaks my heart and im just AUGHHHH SCREAMS

and now I will ramble about sys and lgy under the cut.

THEY MEAN EVERYTHING TO ME. have you guys ever realised how gilyoung was growing to become so fucked up in the beginning of the story? killing monsters and even people without batting an eye, offering to dokja to leave him behind, and even sangah and dokja were genuinely worried about his development. (sangah telling him she'll kill and he doesn't need to kill anything) and the one thing that sort of grounds gilyoung from this taking over his growth is when shin yoosung joins the party

its only after she joins that he's able to act his age like a lil kid, bickering and fighting and just... aughhh,, THEY ONLY HAVE EACH OTHER AS FRIENDS FROM THE SAME AGE OKAY... like having friends your age is so important when you're a kid, they literally stay together all the time. and they argue a lot but they defend each other and hold each others hands whenever the other needs help.

its SO fucking wholesome. NOT TO MENTION, yoosung was the reason gilyoung signed a contract with his sponsor in the jttw arc, (it was never specified why but i think he did it so she would survive and save dokja? Or like so he could have the power to fend off the enemies on his own and keep them occupied away from sys. Maybe I'll go reread that part again) the whole yellow aura thing yknow. and im like half certain they picked up the idiot-calling from like yjh kdj and hsy calling each other bastard stupid and idiot all the time...its kinda funny..

anyway. they make me so ill. SO ILL.

[yukarishoodie]

One of my favorite ORV headcanons is that TWSA has as much practical living advice as it does the metaphorical.

There's a 3-page long description of lsh dressing and bandaging yjh's wounds in the early rounds, intimately describing all the bruises and cuts and scrapes and the way they were handled. Kdj saw this as a humanizing moment for yjh and shipping fuel, but the next day he gets beat up by bullies and decided to dress his wounds himself since the school nurse isn't around (and they were getting tired of him anyway). It's sloppy and he had to rebandage himself after it unravelled, but it prevented an infection, and he got better over time.

In another chapter, yjh notices ljh having panic attacks in the middle of battle and teaches her a few tricks to steady your breathing and center herself faster as part of combat training. The description feels like text you'd see in a training handbook and completely breaks any sense of pacing. Kdj remembers it the next time he has one and was able to calm himself down before his relatives find him and punish him like they did before.

In yet another chapter, yjh avoids the eyes of fellow incarnations and picks his words correctly in a game of three questions with nosy constellations. They were oddly dry and mundane for an apocalypse setting with superhuman powers. Kdj remembers them the next time he spots paparazzi lurking around the corners.

A chapter has yjh instructing knw, ljh and yma on how to make do with instant ramyun and add a few things to it to keep it somewhat nutritious (yjh isn't happy about it but it's the least he can do since they're gonna split for a multi-day scenario and he can't cook for them). Kdj remembers it when he tried to make ramyun for the first time in his new place after moving out of his relatives'. He remembers curling his hand to chop the scallions because knw got scolded for improper knife handling, and he remembers when to put in the egg because ljh got sternly corrected for confidently shouting out the wrong answer. Kdj didn't injure himself, and it was the fanciest and most delicious meal he ate in a while. (He remembers yjh patting his sister's head for getting everything right, and almost brings his own hands to his head before stopping; no one's gonna praise a college student for making ramyun right.)

There was a chapter that came out around the time kdj was job hunting, where the party gets tangled in a subscenario involving securing a position through interviews. It felt contrived even with kdj's tolerance to TWSA shenanigans, but he takes note of what everyone does anyway and tries some of them in his job interviews. He comments that some of the actions felt unrealistic with his own experiences in job interviews; tls123 replied with a lighthearted apology (she's never had to bother with interviews, and she doubts she'll ever get to; she's grateful that it was still useful.)

(Kim Dokja, rereading TWSA over and over again in the train, feels the love and has no idea what to do with it.)

(05/06: added the food segment because i loved all the food-related notes <3)