#the really queer sitcom

[chawliekin]

and if I said that dennis’ insistence on being the breadwinner/provider despite literally being a pampered princess who dgaf about traditional roles of masculinity in every other regard (aside from ego) is because his mom only stayed with/chose frank for his wealth and dennis is highly aware that he’s difficult to love and unable to show his emotions openly so he has to be contributing something to the relationship materially in order to feel like he’s worth staying for… and mac grew up with parents who were extremely ambivalent to him and eachother so he has to overcompensate by proving his worth at every given moment and seeking praise/validation from people (and religious icons) who will never demonstrate the same amount of dedication to him but he has no idea how else to desperately keep himself close to those he loves other than by eroding himself into something they’ll approve of… dear god they’re both exactly what the other needs — someone who can’t and won’t leave them even if they try — and they don’t even see it…

[biblicalhorror]

Okayyyyy yeah also let's talk about Tammy. I didn't know how I felt about her for awhile because she did very much feel like the Disposable Black Girlfriend, but I'm seeing people saying she's an "abuser" or God forbid "just as bad as Kevin" and that's just. Not at all true.

Yes, Tammy is controlling. She doesn't seem to really like Patty for who she is, and kind of seems to want to change her into someone else instead. HOWEVER, I think we need to look at the whole character to understand WHY she's like that. I don't think she's controlling Patty for personal gain or for the sake of manipulating her. I think she's lonely and desperate for companionship, which leads to her ignoring/pushing past the obvious incompatibility in her relationship with Patty.

Here's what we know about Tammy:

1. She seems to be the only black person in the Worcester social circle. She also mentions frequently how she's surrounded entirely by white men at work.

2. She is also the only openly lgbt person in the area, other than Patty, who is still not exactly out and proud.

3. She describes her entire job as "making excuses for" and "cleaning up after" the men at her job, particularly her partner (whose name I am unfortunately forgetting, does anyone remember?), who even had her plant evidence for him on at least one occasion.

4. Despite being very competent and good at her job, the white men around her keep failing upwards (she mentions a few times that people beneath her keep getting promoted) while she remains stagnant in her career. There doesn't seem to be any explanation for this other than the fact that she is a black lesbian in an extremely white, conservative community.

Basically, Tammy seems like someone who has been taught (like many black women) that she will have to work much harder than everyone else to get ahead in any capacity. She is also likely very, very lonely. She doesn't seem to have any friends outside of work, which isn't surprising given the above. It seems like she doesn't exactly have a ton of prospects, dating-wise, other than Patty. In my opinion, it's really no wonder that she clung to Patty so desperately and immediately and tried to forcibly mold her into someone who could be compatible. She's tough, smart, organized, direct, manipulative, no-nonsense and controlling because, well, she had to be. And she ends up trying to "rein in" Patty because, in her mind, what's the other option? She ends up alone, surrounded by men who force her to cover for their antics and don't care if she lives or dies.

I'm not saying her behavior is healthy. But it comes from an entirely different place than Kevin's abuse, or Chuck's, or even Neil's. And it's also not uncommon. In real life, I know many queer women (specifically small-town lesbians) who end up in relationship dynamics just like that over and over again because they start dating someone who doesn't quite fit, and they compensate for it by trying to force a connection instead of accepting loneliness and isolation. I have a lot of sympathy for Tammy. And I wish the show had taken more care to establish the abuse she faced from her coworkers off-camera.

[murcielagatito]

me when im silly goofy connecting imaginary dots about ava and janine getting a lil homoerotic this season

[the-lesbian-orpheus]

I love and cherish by edits and stuff of my dramatic high fantasy guys, my minecraft guys, my silly little monsters, my dramatic sci-fi guys, my animated guys

But can we please also normalize making edits and stuff of like regular ass sitcom guys

Like where are the badass edits of Rosa Diaz, the crush edits of Tahani al Jamil, the ship edits of David and Patrick, the comfort edits of Chidi Anagonye

I say this as a person who lives in fantasy and whimsy content

I feel like we deserve both

(Ps I rambled a lot about this in the tags so maybe check them out :3 👀👀👀)

[themuseoftheviolets]

its the way that i've been hunting for queer subtext in this show since the very beginning like 5 minutes into 1x1 i texted the groupchat like 'do people ship the uncles. is that a thing. i wanna ship the uncles' like its no wonder i ended up here

[aparticularbandit]

@Cherry Anon - not answering your submission directly, because I want to link the thing when it's done, and I won't be posting it until sometime in December - but I started your N2N request. ^^

[bleuberrygliscor]

Last night was session two of my weird dreams where I go through my life being haunted by the ghost of seteven Chowder, who killed himself trying to shame his wife into getting back together (he threatened suicide and accidentally forgot his gun was loaded when she called his bluff).

It's like when you imagine your inner critic being a teenager on COD to infantilize it. But its a grown man throwing slurs at the cheap cigar he can't smoke, on account of being fucking dead.

[faillen]

.

[renthony]

A significant amount of my opinions about modern queer television are influenced by researching older queer media.

I see a lot of the same vitriol in modern queer fandom discourse that has been playing out in queer spaces since film and television were invented. Shows in the 70s started making steps toward sensitivity consulting in queer media, even as the networks fought them on it. Imperfect but earnest queer representation was met with aggressive protests by homophobes and queer people who thought it wasn't good enough. The argument over good representation vs no representation has been happening for decades and decades.

You spend enough time immersed in old queer media and you really start to vibe with Harvey Fierstein's words in The Celluloid Closet documentary. Or at least, I do.

Harvey Fierstein: "I liked the sissy. Is it used in negative ways? Yeah, but, my view has always been visibility at any cost."

The way I see it, the way to genuine, loving queer representation that showcases a vast array of experiences is to stop demanding perfection. The fewer queer stories that are allowed to exist, the more of the heavy lifting those stories have to do in the representation department.

When we have numerous queer stories, it's suddenly much less important to argue over whether the queer characters in question are "good" or "positive." They can just be queer characters who exist in the same infinite variety as straight characters. They can be messy, they can be flawed, they can be honest portrayals of the complexity of human existence.

Queer representation will never be perfect, and striving for perfection is how we shoot ourselves in the foot.

Some starter reading for those interested:

Alternate Channels: Queer Images on 20th-Century TV (revised edition) - Steven Capsuto

Hi Honey, I'm Homo!: Sitcoms, Specials, and the Queering of American Culture - Matt Baume

The Celluloid Closet: Homosexuality in the Movies - Vito Russo

[scoobydoodean]

Hi im a samgirl and i dont mind if others feel differently about this but if you are interested in a samgirl perspective, the short story to sam's allegorical queerness is that sam grew up feeling fundamentally different from his family. He felt that there was something dirty or unclean about himself which is how a lot of marginalized queer children feel growing up. It's not that queerness itself is monstrous but that society and the patriarchal family unit will cast queerness as the monstrous Other, which is why monstrosity is a pretty common queer allegory.

I keep getting asks about queer Sam and I'm not sure exactly why, other than people maybe assume I have a strong opinion about it. The simple truth is that I just don't find what's said about it compelling so it doesn't interest me. I have no issue with other people exploring it and don't have any desire to ruin anyone's fun. It's just that I don't personally see it when I dig deeper than the surface level of "he felt different" and examine why and exactly what Sam actually wanted and why he felt that way. I will get into that here to an extent I guess because I was asked in another piece of mail what my opinions were, but I don't intend it as an "argument" to start a fight or to dismantle anyone else's perception—just an explanation of my personal lack of interest in this particular type of meta.

First, I don't think "Sam grew up feeling fundamentally different from his family" works for me as a queer meta when the reason Sam felt "fundamentally different" was that—according to his own early framing—he was the normal one trapped in a family of freaks who wanted him to be a freak like them.

Sam says in 1.08 that he felt different from Dean and John, but when we read on to see why, he says it's because he wanted to play soccer instead of being a child soldier.

SAM Because I didn't wanna bowhunt or hustle pool - because I wanted to go to school and live my life, which, to our whacked-out family, made me the freak. DEAN Yeah, you were kind of like the blonde chick in The Munsters.

For people too young to get "the blonde chick in The Munsters", Dean is referring to Marilyn Munster, who was the one "normal" person in a family of monsters in a 1960s sitcom.

In childhood flashbacks in 4.13, Sam refuses to fight Dirk at first even though he could easily best him using the skills he learned from their father.

YOUNG DEAN That's right, you don't. You could have torn him apart. So why didn't you? YOUNG SAM Because I don't want to be the freak for once, Dean. I want to be normal.

In both situations, Sam views his family and what they do as freakish and wants to distinguish himself as the one normal one trapped in a family of monsters who is at threat of becoming like them by pure association and family pressure.

YOUNG SAM Yeah, my, aah -- my dad's a mechanic. So I have to be a mechanic, too. MR. WYATT Do you want to go in the family business, Sam? YOUNG SAM No one's ever asked me that before. MR. WYATT Well? YOUNG SAM More than anything, no.

In 5.16 Dark Side of the Moon, one of Sam's greatest childhood memories is getting to sit down for Thanksgiving dinner in a normal, upper middle class household instead of sitting around with "A bucket of extra-crispy and Dad passed out on the couch."

In 1.01, he says he wants to be nothing like his family. He says he is normal unlike them when Dean is telling him they're the same:

DEAN You can pretend all you want, Sammy. But sooner or later you're going to have to face up to who you really are. SAM And who's that? DEAN You're one of us. SAM No. I'm not like you. This is not going to be my life.

Sam sees the upbringing that he has in common with Dean as something almost... humiliating—to the point that he plans to lie to Jess forever about how he was raised and about his family (1.01).

All of this to say... when the queer allegory I'm being sold is that a guy is queer because he wants to go to college, get married, have 2.5 kids, go no contact with his brother (because Dean isn't normal like him?), and lie about his family to his friends because the idea of them knowing he didn't grow up normal is embarrassing... I don't feel like I'm reading a queer allegory. I'd be more likely to think that if anything, I'm reading a comedy from the POV of "the token straight" who initially functions (in the Pilot) as the "normal" character to introduce the "normal" audience to an "abnormal" world in a relatable, palatable way.

That said, when we embrace the fact that the Winchesters are a family of freaks, there is an easy counterpoint here which is that Sam's attitude in the beginning of the series represents being closeted and desperately trying to assimilate with normal society and be perceived as just like everybody else... and his freak family is in the way. In this case, Sam knows deep down that he is like his family (i.e. queer) but desperately wishes he wasn't so that he could fit in. Given that I'm a big believer in Sam being a hunter through and through despite his occasional denials, I find this much more compelling than the argument that Sam feeling othered in his family because he sees himself (at least at first) as the one normal one makes him queer.

*One of you shaking me back and forth*

"But PK—WHAT ABOUT THE DEMON BLOOD?!?!"

Yeah yeah yeah. While it doesn't start out that way, eventually, Sam does reflect on his childhood and see himself as Megamind instead of Marilyn Munster. This is retroactive though (in my opinion. I do not actually believe Sam could "sense" his dormant powers) after finding out that Azazel dropped blood into his mouth when he was a baby. Instead of feeling like the normal one in a family of freaks, Sam starts to feel like the biggest freak in the family, and Dean's "I'm a freak too" suddenly feels like platitudes. Dean—whose calls Sam didn't pick up for years—starts to seem like the normal one—the good one—between them. Dean is the hero character, the righteous man, the sword of heaven... and Sam thinks in his worst moments that he is someone Hero!Dean should be duty bound to kill (2.11). These are all feelings that (again—in my opinion) develop later. I talk about Sam's feelings of otherness and why he actually had those feelings and how I think the demon blood erroneously comes into play as an explanation for his insecurities here.

I think it probably also makes sense to mention here that the idea that Sam was treated as a monster by his family is very very overstated by portions of fandom. I'm not saying Sam never had reason to feel different or othered or unloved or neglected—he absolutely did (as did Dean). I am saying that people like to write about things that never actually happened when they talk about how Sam was treated growing up. Sam felt different from his family because John let Dean start hunting when he was younger than Sam, then he felt different because he wanted to play soccer and go to school while John wanted him to hunt, and because he thought Dean enjoyed being a parentified child and being raised like a soldier and Sam didn't. Retroactively, Sam feels different when he finds out he has powers. These do not develop until he is an adult, and it is never indicated to us that John knew about any of this when Sam was growing up—much less treated him differently growing up because of it. Retroactively, Sam believes Dean sees him as a freak for having visions even though Dean repeatedly treats his visions as no big deal and psychics are an accepted and trusted group within the hunter community (see: Missouri, Pam, Fred). Retroactively, Sam feels different because he was fed blood as a baby. He did not know this until he was an adult, and neither did Dean, as far as we know, neither did John. Sam never believes that Dean would act on John's last whispered command (that again—does not transpire until Sam is an adult) to the point that he repeatedly tries to guilt Dean into promises to follow through and carry out John's will. Retroactively, Sam feels like a freak in season 4 because Sam chooses to drink a completely different demon's blood of his own free will and develop a completely new power set and Dean doesn't think it's a good thing.

TL;DR Sam did not grow up being treated as the monstrous other by his dad and brother. He grew up as an understandably rebellious kid whose dad was a neglectful asshole and a drill sergeant, and he hated being dragged from place to place with no say. He felt different because he stood in contrast to a brother who tried his best to keep the peace because experience taught Dean that refusing to obey would get people killed (1.18), John would send Dean away if Dean gave him lip (14.12), and Dean felt he had to be there to take care of Sam and John (1.06).

More or less, these are the reasons I don't find the queer Sam metas I have stumbled across particularly compelling (along with—imo—Jared's lack of romantic chemistry with other men). At the same time, people seeing Sam as queer or not queer doesn't bother me. I am not trying to "take away" that interpretation from anyone else (as if I even could). I'm just not interested.

[thanatoaster]

Oh man I loved this season of Solar Opposites! They have really leaned into being a queer show, it's kinda crazy looking back. I feel like it's been generally implied for a while that none of them, not even Korvo, want to destroy the earth and terraform it because they love their lives. But it was really sweet to see Korvo straight up saying their family is the most important thing to him. I also just love them being married now! and that they mention it randomly all the time it's great.

I honestly don't know why this show is not bigger on tumblr. It's literally like every adult animated sitcom following a nuclear family except they are aliens and the family has 2 dads!!! They are found (or thrown together by circumstances) family! Terry and Korvo fall in love over the show!! They got married for a valentine's day special!!! Why isn't everyone obsessed??

[luunamoona]

the way community handled queerness is honestly so peak. like, there're 3 main moments i can think of in the show where queerness was apparent and mentioned: advanced gay, queer studies and advanced waxing and britta's pitch in emotional concequences of broadcast television.

in advanced gay, the cornelius hawthorne is seen as a villian for having traits like being abusive towards his son, pierce, him being really racist and him being homophobic. this acknowledgement of homophobia being a bad thing is definitely good for the early 2010s, as many shows treated being queer as a joke back then. also cornelius being fucking murdered at the end of the episode solidifies the fact his actions were deemed immoral and he therefore had his comeuppance.

community only ever uses queerness as a punchline in the context of troy and abed's relationship, the punchline usually being "look at how romantic these 2 friends are how silly", which could be seen as homophobia as the same context with a man and a woman would be treated differently by the showrunners as it'd be turned into a romantic subplot.

the next example i have is from queer studies and advanced waxing. having the dean tell richie and carl that he "isn't openly anything and gay doesn't begin to cover it" is much more progressive than many other media at that time, and even now, as they'd usually have the queer character just be gay for convenience. this need for convenience is commented on in the episode with richie and carl basically coercing the dean into adopting a label that is inaccurate but convenient for his straight peers. back to my previous point, presenting queerness as being more complex and having more nuance than just gay and straight is something that is very useful to queer viewers as it presents an option beyond these 2 ends of the spectrum. unlike what other shows may do with this concept, community treats it seriously, showing the dean's inner conflict with presenting with an identity that isn't his, with lines like "i feel sick". (also side point, the line "i make gayness look like mormonism" goes so hard)

finally, there's britta's pitch in emotional concequences of broadcast television. in this, the dean protests britta's decision to make him transgender and not "all this other stuff". something i love about that scene is the ability to critique queer represention without insulting it. as a trans person, i've seen a good amount of transphobia is television. this isn't one of these times. being able to have trans identity be a part of the punchline without it being insulted is something that is apparently very hard for screenwriters of sitcoms to do, so i commend them for being able to do that. as well as this, this scene acts as a criticism of how basic queer representation in media is, how they like having one distinct, easy to understand label to give their token character, ignoring "all this other stuff". it's telling us that, like in queer studies and advanced waxing, queer idenity isn't black and white, it's a wide spectrum of identities that comes in many, many different colors.

all in all, community's representation of queerness and how it treats insults to queerness is something a lot of other shows should try to strive for. in my opinion, it has some of the most nuanced takes of queer identity and representation out of any sitcom that doesn't have queer people as a target audience. it feels very fitting, since the show is literally called community and it about a group of misfits who bond over their shared messed up-ness. this show is all about finding your people and accepting everyone, as pierce says in for a few paintballs more, "flaws and all". i think the showrunners had an impression this show would speak to a lot of queer people and i love that they were able to make us feel welcome just as greendale does to the study group.

[strawberrylemongrass]

my family is sort of like those conservative "THIS is the nuclear family that BIDEN wants" type things like

my dad is a nonbinary lesbian, he's disabled and a stay at home parent, he also has adhd

my mom is bisexual, polyamorus, and neurodivergent, she works as an obgyn

my older brother is pansexual, gender queer, and audhd, he likes anime

my sister is a trans lesbian, she doesn't want to get married or have kids, she wants 10 cats

both our dogs are gay

and if this really was a conservative "anti-woke" sitcom, I'd be the only person who's "normal"

but nope! I'm cis and straight, but I'm also demisexual, alterhuman, neurodivergent, and disabled

[natjennie]

i think we need to temper our expectations with ofmd s2. like not to be a bummer but we've hyped it up sooo much and I'm worried that, when it's not like. a fucking sundance film festival revelatory art piece and is instead. what it is. a silly romp of a romcom. everyone is gonna be up in arms. I think we need to adjust the standards. not lower just, genre appropriate. like, straight people get to have stupid little cliche romance-y sitcoms all the time. it can just be one of those.

and I don't want it to sound like I'm expecting ofmd s2 to be bad because I promise I'm not I really truly think it's going to be so good, s1 fed us so well and everyone in the cast and crew is committed to doing something good and healing for the queer community and I believe in them.

but s1 also had fucking "man for sale! somebody buy my booty" and "dickfuck no it's not" and "blackbeard's bar and grill.. and other delicacies. and delights. and fishing equipment." like it was stupid and silly and camp and knew when to draw the line between comedy and drama and did it really well. but I need everyone to remember that it's a comedy first. so if they play things for laughs instead of taking a deep dive into the trauma of it, it doesn't make it a worse or disappointing season. does this make sense?

[quasi-normalcy]

Alone among the new series, Lower Decks--even in spite of its status as an adult animated sitcom with, like, actual queer characters--really does feel like a 1990s Star Trek that somehow got marooned on the shores of the 2020s.

(That's not to say that any of the other new series are necessarily bad, by the way; but they all feel so 2020s (or so 2010s in Discovery's case)).

[mywingsareonwheels]

No but really, love stories about middle-aged queer people (or immortal equivalents ;-) ) in which they hit the halfway through or 2/3-of-the-way-through agonising cliffhanger break-up beat, being as it is a really time-honoured part of happy-ending classic romances. And in mainstream tv shows! Mainstream tv shows aimed at a wide audience!

That’s actually bloody awesome. I mean, at the time of course it hurts like hell. But... really. For queer love to be treated as suitable for a love story? To be hitting the Emma-and-Knightley-at-Box-Hill, Darcy’s-bad-proposal, Ladislaw-leaving-Middlemarch-because-clearly-he-and-Dorothea-can’t-be-together etc. etc. bit... I grew up on sitcoms like From May to December when fall outs like this were part of the story. It’s classic, it’s standard. It’s tropey in the best way: and one of those tropes which is a hundred times more fresh and powerful for a non-cishet couple.

I mean, I don’t know. I’m 44 and British. I grew up bi and nonbinary and closeted with Section 28 (even if the teachers at my school broke the Section 28 laws All The Time, bless them <3 ). I could not have imagined stories like this with a big audience. And as a community globally we are so hard beset, things are truly terrifying, but... but this is so powerful. Aziraphale/Crowley (and Nina/Maggie; actually and also Gabriel/Beelzebub given that too is a queer relationship!). And other stories too that I haven’t seen but know are out there. :-)

So no, I don’t love Neil Gaiman or John Finnemore any less for the end of series 2. Quite the contrary. Hitting “conventional” romance tropes with queer couples in a show like this? Yes, including the romance tropes that hurt dreadfully? Oh hell yes. Thank you, Neil and John. Thank you Pterry. Thank you Michael and David and Nina and Maggie. <3

And... well, since we did ask them for a story about an angel and a demon in love... It was never going to be easy. :) <3