#the pantheon of Exandria

[quinn-of-aebradore]

So here’s my thought, because I don’t think the Archheart is wholly wrong about the gods needing to leave, but I think, as in all things, there’s nuance to that solution. Specifically, I don’t think all of them leaving at once is the best option.

I think the Archheart and whoever the second god is that wants to leave need to take the plunge and go off on their own. Because their argument hinges on this notion that mortaldom cannot grow with them still there, but by refusing to leave without the whole of their family beside them, they too are refusing to grow. To go off on their own and explore the cosmos for themselves. They are waffling on the choice of sticking with their family as they always have or leaving the home they found and made together, just as many of their siblings have waffled on their children VS their siblings. But the thing is, they (the Archheart plus one) know they want the latter choice—leaving—more than they want to stay (and as such stick w the family), so they want to force their family’s hand so they come with and they (Archheart plus one) can get their cake and eat it too.

Which is understandable! With all they’ve been through, all the family they’ve already lost, it makes sense that they don’t want to leave anyone else behind! But in order for them to grow, they need to. And I think, with time, if the Archheart and their fellow did leave, others would follow. Would see that the choice wasn’t as calamitous (heh) as they once feared it might be. Some would stay, because the world needs its constants—the sun, death, hope, nature—and because they care for their children too deeply to stray too far and that would be okay.

Staying close may well be as suffocating as the Archheart believes it to be, but then surely the inverse—severing that tie completely by all abandoning Exandria at once—must be just as harmful. There has to be balance; some stay, some go. Perhaps one day some even come back to visit. But the gods—the Archheart, their fellow, the rest—need to realize they can survive without each other too, just as they want to show mortals they can survive without them. They’re the same, after all.

[venator-signum]

shoutout to haylie and topher, the two half-firbolg kids who are quite possibly the only exandrian demigods to ever exist

[transfem-octopus]

Part of what makes the fall of Aeor such a tragedy is that it didn’t need to happen this was not an inevitability. This didn’t need to happen the people of Aeor could have been saved and the gods came so close to saving them. As with all tragedies it was almost averted you can so easily see how things could have been different. Had the Somnoven not abandoned their people; had Selena not seeded the knowledge of how to build the Mallus Factorum in her people; had the Mageoceacy of Aeor never built the Mallus Factorum at all...

So many times people suffer because of the actions of their leaders and their rulers. The rich start the wars and the poor do the fighting and the dying. The wizards of Aeor thought they could rival the power of the gods and their people paid the ultimate price for their hubris.

The gods of Exandria have often been criticized as if they are socially constructed ruling class. But they’re not; the power of the gods stems from the fact that they are beings from a higher plane of existence who descended to Exandria to flee from Predathos. The gods are not a socially constructed ruling class but higher beings that must coexist with mortals. At once infinite beings beyond the power of mere mortals and people with hopes and dreams and fears and the weakness and fallibility that cones with personhood.

[virgodev]

As a hardcore Corellon Larethian fan from the moment I read the deity’s canon 5e lore, I admit to have always been disappointed by how underrated they are.

Corellon is prideful, egotistic, cocky, simultaneously the deity with domains of Magic, Music, Arts, Crafts, Warfare, Poetry, Trickery and Knowledge. Their battles with Grumsh and his ex-wife Lolth are legendary. They have an organization called “Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower” which just realm hops to recover elven relics.

Seeing their representation in CR Downfall brings me so much joy! I understand that the Exandrian version of Corellon has differences with the canon 5e version of the Elven Prime Deity, but honestly just seeing them on my screen fills me with joy.

Abubakar does such an incredible job! I hope my elven prime deity daddy (genderfluid) starts getting more recognition now!

[natp20]

who's excited for the most extreme incident of fuck-around-and-find-out in exandrian history?

[arclundarchivist]

[Spoilers C3E104] Likely Timeline of Events.

I think I have a general run down of events that lead up to modern exandria, at least how it has truly been hinted to exist as Brennan, Matt and Aabria have shaped it.

Origin: The Luxon Finds and becomes a part of Exandria.

Before Tengari Arrival: The Luxon's presence spawns the first life on Exandria, the Elementals and a Primordial Form of Life separate from that that we know, including the Eidolons(And possibly Proto-Fey). It is chaos, with no intention, other than to exist. The Titans are present, but have no ideation of what they are or what they could want.

The Luxon Divests Itself: Now this one is more tenuous, as there are two different depictions. Either, it sought commonality with its children the Titans, and was rebuffed, as unlike it they were near mindless and violent, fighting each other and attempting to attack it, so it divested itself in an attempt to better understand itself and them, *AND* notably grant a form of reincarnation to the life on the planet so they would not be lost to the "darkness beyond" as the Titans were. Which, considering what Matt mentioned of the Eidolons and Hearthdell's history... seems kind of fitting.

There is another version of that story, but that needs to wait for...

The Tengari Arrival: Tengar dies, seemingly to Predathos, and the few dozen that remain of that place are drawn to Exandria (perhaps by the nascent Luxon), they arrive, giving physical forms to their conceptual ones, and as Brennan put it in one of the After Shows, granting conceptual ideation just be arriving to the purely physical Titans. Brief conflict between the Titans and Tengari occurs, and seems to calm, and may not have been as cut and dry as it seems.

The Founding: The first form of modern Exandria is formed by the Tengari. Mortals are either created wholesale, or shaped from those Primordial things hidden in the pockets of primal nature with the Eidolons. Here the second story of the divestment occurs (likely not the true one), claiming the Luxon grew curious regarding what the Tengari were doing and wanted to become a part of their cycle and learn of itself through interaction with mortal souls. At some point Mortals are givin divine magic, unsure if that means Clerics solely. The "First" Dragons are also created, possibly from Elementals that were drawn to the Tengari, raises questions about the origins of Bahamut and Tiamat. The first celestials(Seemingly not creations of the Tengari) and Demons are drawn to Exandria by the presence of mortals. The Gods begin being put in certain perspectives and positions due to the beliefs of their creations. Not all are happy with this change.

Falling Star: Predathos arrives at an as of yet unamed island on Exandria, possibly having chased the Tengari from their previous home. Ethedok and Vordo are consumed. The Gods refusing to give up their new home, make a compact with the Titans to imprison Predathos within the island and jettison it, yet somehow either by Predathos's will or something else it remains with Exandrias orbit as Ruidus. Precursor of the Divine Gate is seeded in the Lawbearer's mind. The Rudians possibly origin, already corrupted by the presence of Predathos within their home, or afterwards as they are trapped with it.

The Schism: The Primordials angered by the presence of Divine Magic begin attacking mortals. The Tengari split into factions, those that want to wipe the slate free, some noting a deal/promise they made to the Titans, the Primes seek to protect the mortals, some citing different promise and oaths. Corellon steals the Arcane from Lolth, possibly causing her fall, and gives it to Mortals to help them fight the forces of the Betrayers and Primordials. The former are trapped, most of the latter are slain, excluding Rau'shan and Ka'Mort, who notably seemed most present at the making of Ruidus. The Primes are victorious, and continue to walk Exandria into a "golden age". Notably, the Eidolons are left as they are, raising questions about their existence, and how they connected to the Tengari and Titans. Vasselheim is founded.

Age of Arcanum: Many Exandrians begin believing they can rise to the power of, or no longer need pay heed to the Gods thanks to the gift Corellon gave them. Vast flying cities soar above Exandria. A clear division between the Mages of those Cities and the Worshippers and even Druids of the surface begin to form. The first possible case of a Ruidusborn is accounted for: The Matron of Ravens. The Matron then Ascends to Godhood, seemingly slaying and erasing all memory of the previous God of Death, even from the minds of the Tengari.

Fall of Avalir: Following the erroneous attempt by Vespin Chloras to become the new Lord of the Hells, Asmodeus manipulates matters to lead to the destruction of the Tree of Names, a guardian against presences that should not be on Exandria. The tree is destroyed by a mage of Avalir, her name largely lost to time, in pursuit of her own goals. The Betrayers are fully freed to walk across Exandria once more, founding Ghor Dranus, and setting about wrecking havoc across the world, while the forgotten heroes of Avalir stop the Titan Monarchs from being released, slaying them and leaving but a shard of their power behind. All it costs is Domunus, now forever known as the Shattered Teeth.

The Calamity: Two-Thirds of Exandria dies in the divine war that follows. Vasselheim and Nirdol'Poc are the only cities known to survive the devastation from before the Calamity. Marquet burns, defended from total destruction by the second-oldest known Ruidusborn: Alyxian, thrice-blessed by different Prime Divinities, raising a number of interesting questions. Tharizdun arrives, at some point, but when is uncertain. I personally believe that it is after the fall of Aeor that it fully pokes in, but it may have been waiting in the wings for longer than that. The first vestiges are created to help mortal champions fight against the forces of the Betrayers. The Luxon is discovered by Leylas Krynn and her followers.

The Fall of Aeor: Aeorian Mages craft a weapon that can slay the gods, thought factions work against each other when it comes to how it will actually be applied. The Gods agree to a pact to stop the weapon. They chose to do so by becoming mortal. Some of the Primes seek to simply destroy the weapon, others seek the fall of the city. Some Betrayers show regrets for how they now exist in the world. The end through tragedy, manipulation and desperation, Aeor falls not just at the hands of the Gods but partially born by mortal action as well. Damned twofold, all by the conniving hand of Asmodeus seeking to end his Prime siblings and mortals, consumed by his rage. Something defends some of the citizenry of Aeor from destruction. Two individuals are saved by the Primes. A Young Ludinus watches the Fall. The Primes begin talking about the construction of the Divine Gate, though not all are in agreement. Cognouzas flight from Aeor sends them crashing *into* Tharizdun briefly, horrifically warping both the bodies and minds of the citizenry.

The Divergence: The Primes defeat the Betrayers once more and lock them away once more within their prisons. This includes Tharizdun, who nearly kills Ioun, and is stated to not be actually part of the Pantheon, and is an alien influence, not so dissimilar from Predathos. The Rites of Prime Banishment are written and worked for the first time to get rid of it, and several powerful divine shackles are created to keep it chained. They then leave Exandria, forming a protective net around it that will keep them out and protect Exandria from the full might of divinity for ever... or so it is said. This magical lattice work becomes known as the Divine Gate. Some servants of the Gods remain on Exandria, some attempting to become new Gods all their own, while some are kept in different prisons scattered across Exandria, others working to heal the devastation wrote by their creators or continue to revel in the chaos. Those would be divinties are imprisoned by mortal mages or cast down by their now distant creators, to eventually form a compact in the far future. The influences of the gods are still felt, but not demandingly and this distance becomes familiar and comforting to many. Many more Drow enter the light of the Luxon, abandoning the Spider Queen.

511 PD(Post-Divergence): Trist Drassig, son of the tyrant and other possibly Ruidusborn Warren Drassig causes the first mass extraplanar incursion on Exandria since before the Divergence, summoning a number of demons and a Demon Prince to Exandria to slay the rebels under Zan Tal'Dorei.

585 PD The Fall of Molaesmyr/The Crush: Ludinus contacts Predathos for the first time using Aeorian Tech and a magical font beneath the city. It goes catastrophically wrong on both sides of the link. Molaesmyr is consumed by a wave of corruptive energy that warps the landscape, the people, the animals and the forest beyond, spreading further and further with each year from that epicenter. The survivors, including Ludinus flee to Bysaes Tyl and Uthodurn. On Ruidus, a series of devastating earthquakes shakes the moon, devastating the Collective, the previous ruling body of the Rudian peoples, that was much more egalitarian and say the rise of the Weavemind and Kreviris Imperium to supplant them. The Weavemind destroys centuries of Rudian history and culture and begins manipulating their people and the other peoples of Ruidus through global indoctrination and eugenics programs. Ludinus's plots against the Gods and peoples of Exandria likely hit their stride, at some point following or before this point he begins consuming the essence of divine and fey being to empower himself and considerably lengthen his lifespan, making him into... something other than mortal. A noted obsession with the Matron also begins somewhere around this time.

812 PD: The Arch-Necromancer Vecna, another relict of the Age of Arcanum succeeds in ascending to Godhood, but is then successfully cast out of Exandria into his own prison plan as with the Betrayer Gods, joining him to their Pantheon, and technically making him another of the Tengari in essence if not origin.

835-836 PD: Tharizdun manipulates several powerful entities across Exandria in an attempt to free itself, causing a number of semi-diving figures to get free. Ludinus manipulates the factions of Wildmount, causing a war and allowing him to finally get his hands on a Beacon. The first of the Triad of Would-Be Gods, Uk-Otoa comes close to being released. Cognouza a "nascent-plane" is nearly released to prey upon Exandria. It is hinted that regardless of its defeat, a change is coming to Exandria, hinting at the Apogee Solstice.

And now here we are in the Era of the Red Solstice, new weapons being forged, great changes echoing across the world, evils new and old throwing off their shackles, and who knows what new dawn will be facing Exandria when all of this is said and done. But... it does seem like we are setting up for a whole new era of history. What do you think it will look like?

[mayapapaya33]

I feel like some talented person with editing capabilities needs to make a series of compilations of all the Exandrian God's lore and interactions from Campaign 1. I mean, all the campaigns would be great, but specifically Campaign 1 has such amazing Pantheon material and a lot of people (heathens) skip it!

The obvious one is all of those scenes with The Matron of Ravens, but I'm talking about The Everlight, The Knowing Mistress, The Dawnfather, The Stormlord, everyone that helped them against Vecna. Matt's descriptions of godly realms and powers are gorgeous and ethereal.

Basically, any time they were in Vasselheim we learned cool god lore. The Temple of the Platinum Dragon's art description is very interesting. We learned a little bit about them via Kima.

I feel like it helps flesh out and broaden the view of Campaign 3 to have all of this knowledge and experience with Exandria's Pantheon. Everyone who has seen C1 has a distinct advantage over those who have not (for a variety of reasons) one major one is our insight into the pantheon. Not trying to be holier than thou (bad ump tish) but I do think it really has an impact on how you view the campaign. Which is why I always advocate for watching them in order.

What made EXU:Calamity hit like a truck was the years of subtle lore drops and descriptions of scarred landscapes and hints of advanced civilizations and pieces of a puzzle spread out across the world. I'm sure it was brilliant without it, but I must say, with it, Calamity was an experience unlike any other. To a lesser extent I feel similarly about foreknowledge and C3.

[corvidpolyglot]

fully insane abt torog rn after watching downfall. i think a cleric of his would be fun as hell to play, especially if it ends up being a mirror to the wildmother; people think of pain as something negative, but you cannot have growth or change without pain. having a holy symbol that hurts to hold, that is covered with barbs... phenomenal stuff. zaharzht was a phenomenal character thank you so much brennan lee mulligan and taliesin jaffe for that scene with him and melora

[sun-critrole]

Ok, I've been thinking about this and I'm really curious. If you got to pick a Prime Deity to represent at the Downfall table (or a similar situation, playing the mortal avatar of an immortal god) which one would you pick?

RULES:

Assume whichever of the following two scenarios is most comfortable for you: either A) everyone else who was at the table is playing the characters they played in Downfall, unless you want their character, in which case you replace them and they happily take a week off. Or, B) you are going to be playing a Downfall-esque game with your favorite D&D players (friends, other CR cast members, faceless perfect beings of your imagination, etc.) wherein you get to choose your character first and everyone will seamlessly accommodate you.

No, you can't choose The Luxon or one of the minor deities. Maybe that will be a different poll later.

No, you can't choose a Betrayer God. That poll is here.

Below the cut is a short description of each deity's domain, ripped straight from the chart on page 21 of Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

The Change Bringer: Change, freedom, luck. Chaotic good.

The Platinum Dragon: Honor, justice. Lawful good.

The Arch Heart: Art, beauty, elves. Chaotic good.

The Law Bearer: Civilization, law, peace. Lawful neutral.

The Knowing Mistress: Knowledge, learning, teaching. Neutral.

The Storm Lord: Battle, competition, storms. Chaotic neutral.

The Wild Mother: Seas, wilderness. Neutral.

The All-Hammer: Craft, creation. Lawful good.

The Dawn Father: Healing, sun. Neutral good.

The Everlight: Atonement, compassion. Neutral good.

The Matron of Ravens: Death, fate, winter. Lawful neutral.

The Moon Weaver: Illusion, moonlight, night. Chaotic good.

[kateeorg]

Critical Role- Gods and Parents Parallels

One thing that pops up again and again in the Ruby Vanguard and Ludinus discourse about the gods is that the gods are angry because their children surpassed them. That the child must always surpass the parent, and that the gods not allowing that makes them unfair, against the natural order of things.

I see three issues with this, and they are all a little at odds with each other, so not sure which if any make the most sense.

The first is that the gods have already significantly stepped back from influencing Exandria, as a good parent should. In fact, much of the Ruby Vanguard, like Bor'dor and Lilliana, were radicalized because they felt abandoned, not because they felt the gods have overstepped. Same with a lot of Bells Hells - they have such vague feelings of the gods mostly because they have only felt them vaguely. The few times they've witnessed real overstep were when Ludinus forced their hand - the Dawnfather temple, what happened with Opal.

But most of the time, they don't usually force their will, don't demand obedience from those who choose not the believe, give vague hints. So in trying to give their children more free will, which those like Ludinus should see as a good thing, they come across as absent (a similar problem to the gods in the Percy Jackson series, where the parent issues are much more direct.) You're damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The second is that the rule that the child must "surpass" the parent only really works in a world where parents eventually age and die. But the gods... don't. And can't. Not naturally. Which is I suppose why Ludinus is so deadset on killing them.

But on top of that, even if one killed the gods and became top of the food chain, mortals still can't comprehend the infinite the way gods can. So in reality it's sort of impossible for mortals to surpass the gods except by becoming one, a process that we know is difficult and has a variety of complications. And even then, you don't actually surpass the gods - you just become one of them. You become what you despised, thinking you could do a better job, until you realize all the demands that position and responsibility brings. You could maybe do a better job, but in the process realize why it was so hard for your parents in the first place. Look at the Raven Queen. So either way, Ludinus's dream of mortals surpassing gods doesn't work.

Which leads to my third issue: Surpassing is not the point.

If we're really going to run with the parent-child parallels, the true sign of a child maturing is not them surpassing the parent - it's understanding them. It's seeing their flaws and forgiving them for it. To see them not as saviors or tyrants, but in their entirety as beings trying to do their best in imperfect circumstances. Doesn't mean you need to maintain a relationship with them as an adult if they really hurt you and continue to hurt you, but it allows you to better understand the past and forge a better future.

Now, the gods don't seem to think mortals CAN understand, and I think that is a flaw on their part. Mortals may not be able to understand the infinite, what it means to be responsible for and take care of entire domains of existence, to be so bound to your own rules you cannot break them. But mortals can, some more than others, understand trauma and family obligations and impossible choices. The Society of Primes may not have come about if the Primes made it more apparent what the Betrayers really are to them.

And this is where I hope Bells Hells can step in. Because they are among a select few living souls who have seen what happened in Aeor from the Primes' perspective. (4-Sided Dive mentions they did not witness what happened in Tengar and the epilogue, but everything else). And this group more than many can understand impossible choices and choosing one another, even when it could potentially hurt others.

If Bells Hells can prove to the gods that mortals are capable of appreciating them as flawed and respecting them anyway, that seeing their flaws even makes them love them more... perhaps that could lead to a healthier relationship between mortals and gods for all of Exandria. Not of tyrants nor of absence, but a happier medium.

EDIT: We in fact see this in Campaign 1, where Vax and Vex see the human faces of the Raven Queen and the Dawnfather - in the instances the gods have trusted mortals enough to show their human side, they have become more likable. But considering Aeor, it's easy to see why they don't trust easily.

(Of course this could go the totally opposite way and I could eat my words, but that's just where my head is at after Downfall. Imogen and Laudna in particular I think may become more fearful seeing what the gods do to threats to themselves and their domain. But we'll see).

[immult]

i agree the gods care about the mortals but that's pretty much it really. it stopped at caring.

when the dawnfather explicitly mentioned he knew what asmodeus was going to do when sarenrae reached out to him i.e. massacre her entire followers? and he didn't prevent it from happening because he felt his kin deserved to try anyway? so let her?

what does it tell you about the gods, that one of theirs that was the most vocal about caring for mortals/their children felt that a massacre was justifiable enough to let happen simply because it would prove a point among themselves that another one of theirs is good and kind and brave to attempt the impossible.

and the dawnfather knew damn well it was impossible.

[crescent-moon-mollymauk]

Faith and Downfall's Tragedy

Something that took way too long for me to realize is that those on Exandria who believe that the gods only harvest mortal faith for power and do not care much beyond that are going to feel very vindicated if/when they see the events of Downfall.

This isn't even about the tragedy of Cassida and her faith in Sarenrae, it's something on a larger scale.

This is about SILAHA's bar. SILAHA, while an utter joy to watch as a Critical Role viewer, is a prime example of what these mortals fear. The Arch Heart, reborn into the skin of a new species created by mortals, creates their own secret cult following in an unsuspecting corner of Aeor. The gods were supposed to, for the most part, lay low and then complete their mission to get rid of the information that could end them. Though it seems, unable to help themself, SILAHA must create a place where they are the center of worship, "The Chosen One". It's hard to disagree that those already on the fence about the gods would see this as anything but pure arrogance. But not only that, the Arch Heart was absolutely harvesting this faith for power. And when the time came? SILAHA, the Arch Heart, did not save them. It did not matter that the mortal patrons adored and worshipped SILAHA, provided them with power, found safety and freedom within their walls. These patrons were destroyed in the fall of Aeor. Their faith did not save them. All SILAHA offered them was a few extra moments of peace by settling the ground when Aeor began to fall apart.

As an outside viewer we may say "Oh well the gods didn't truly have a choice because Aeor was going to destroy them," and that may be true, but I can't help but feel grief for those simple bar patrons. And I can just about guarantee you that the average skeptical Exandrian mortal would not see themselves as the "poor deities pushed to the brink", but as the simple patrons who were, in the end, playthings for a power they never got the chance to comprehend. Precious playthings, perhaps, but still toys.

[happycattail]

As children grow up and become adults, you start to realize that Your Parents are not infallible, are not flawless, are not all powerful and knowing. You realize that Your Parents don't have that much power over you anymore and you shed those glasses and they are no longer just Your Parents, they are your parents sure but they are also just themself. Perhaps I'm reaching, but I think that's what Exandria needs to or will realize once Downfall is over and we see what the ending of Aeor will be. The Gods may have created them ages ago but Exandrians have developed and grown up (yes I know this is also some of what Ludinus have said) and while they don't need the Gods anymore just like most people don't really need their parents once they are grown up, they can still acknowledge that having the Gods there may still be helful and good. They just don't really need to be worshipped anymore. They don't need to have that power over Exandrians anymore.

[arclundarchivist]

Chet raises the best point!

If you get rid of the Gods, it upsets the entire power structure.

The panic and chaos and mad scrabble to be on top will cause havok for generations!

Nature abhors a power vacuum.

And when the Gods Drew back, others have risen to try and claim Exandria as their own!

To supplant them, to forge something anew.

Vecna.

The Triad.

Cognouza.

The Will Mind.

Thordak.

Demon Lords. Arch Mages, Arch Fey.

*Also Matt keeps saying Tharizdun isn’t part of Tengar!* Would Predathos even view it as prey?

A new pantheon would rise, there would be new gods.

And I truly do believe Ludinus wants to stand at the pinnacle.

[the-fandom-at-the-moment-blog]

Imma be honest, the only real solution I see to the conflict between those who want to expel the gods and those who want to keep it is for the gods to take their followers somewhere else and leave the non believers in exandria. Any other outcome only makes one side happy

[quinn-of-aebradore]

Exandria is full of divinely touched and partially divine beings. Predathos probably can’t break the Divine Gate. So where is it gonna go to feed for the first time in millennia?

The planet full of divine magic