#the lesbian gender spectrum

[disappointmentthemusical]

"Mainstream gender" as a system of oppression.

Imagine mainstream gender as a line. On one end of the line is "man," and on the other end is "woman" – this is the gender binary. The connecting line itself is representative, loosely, of "non-binary" gender. (I think this image is suitable, and if others disagree, I think that's more representative of how arbitrarily the binary is defined, rather than this image of it.)

This gender spectrum, dubbed "mainstream gender" because it's what the institutions of society use, only applies to certain groups – the group that controls it, really. White people.

Black people cannot access mainstream gender because they are barred from it via hyper-masculinization that borders on animalization. Black men are viewed as hyper-aggressive and predatory. To the white masses, the concept of "soft" Black masculinity is as real as the transatlantic slave trade (i.e., vague notions of it existing, but no personal experience with the implications, so it floats in the periphery until it's brought up again by a Black person). Black women, regardless of how much they lean into "traditional" femininity, will never be viewed as feminine. Black women will always be viewed as loud, aggressive and "man-ish," the latter contributing to transphobia that impacts both black trans women and black cis women.

By contrast, East Asians are hyper-feminized. East Asian men are stereotyped as soft and small and are portrayed as having little sexual appeal (and those who are viewed as sexually desirable are seen as exceptions to the mainstream; sexy despite their femininity). East Asian women are equally unable to escape femininity and are hyper-feminized to the point of infantilisation, both of which contribute to hyper-sexualization and fetishization. The hyper-femininization of East Asian people also lends itself to transphobia targeted at East Asian trans men (recall: the 2016/17 obsession with smol bois).

But not only is mainstream gender a tool of white supremacy, it also (obviously) is inherent to patriarchy (or, patriarchy is inherent to mainstream gender).

The binary is defined and propagated by men. So while all gender rules are arbitrary and constantly changing, "man" is always strictly defined, and the relief of "man" becomes "woman." This is evident both in masculinity being viewed as "gender neutral," as well as the sense of authority men feel over women's gender, commenting on makeup, how women dress, etc. As a result, the gender "woman" is inherently centered around "man."

In de-centering men, lesbians lack the rules to adhere to mainstream gender. That is why lesbianism is often described as a gender experience because lesbians operate on a new gender spectrum, specific to lesbians.

However, different from race, sexuality is not a visible barrier, and it can take work to exit from mainstream gender. Terf "lesbians" are not lesbians because they cling to the relief of "man" to define their gender; they're gay women. Similarly, white lesbians who prioritize their whiteness will continue to exist within mainstream gender. This also explains why white non-binary people are "like that." While they do not adhere to the binary of "man" and "woman," in participating in the system of whiteness, they remain within the confines of mainstream gender.

[disappointmentthemusical]

i was gonna comment but it was too long:

i think the disconnect is how people view butchness (and lesbianism in general) as it pertains to gender. in the same way you are a lesbian, you *are* a butch. it's a state of being. versus, i think a lot of people understand butch to be a form of gender *expression*, if that makes sense? what it means to be a butch is completely dependent on the individual, the same way what it means to be a man or a woman depends on the man/woman you're talking to. but if people view gender as something to perform, then they start making rules that not all butches can or want to adhere to.

those "How to be Butch" guides that list various selfless or chivalrous acts for aspiring butches to perform make for some beautiful poetry, but jsyk you don't actually have to do any of that stuff to be butch. like you don't have to be a girl gentleman or whatever you can be just some guy. it's fine

[justdavina]

SEXY HOT Cross-Dresser! Her outfit is PURRR fect! I just love leopard skin dresses!

[skylee-spider-lillis]

"Me? Oh yeah I'm lesbian I'm sure of that-"

* Jayden Revri as Charles Rowland comes in to my life *

...... Guess I'm bi spec.

(Fuck you Charles Rowland. Thanks for this mess again).

[thegirlinprague]

gender is a spectrum

[bunniesloveobsessions]

I love the logan fans I love how we've just all agreed that he's a lesbian and may be a man but also a woman at the same time, that he has a husband that he loves and sometimes that's a polycule, and sometimes he's trans and also he's a cat

[priestblaster]

maybe it's the joint talking but i really love being a lesbian. like really, truly, fully with every cell in my body. i love calling myself a lesbian at every chance i get and i wear it as a badge of honor. i love being seen by other lesbians in public and having that moment! i love declaring with all my heart that i will never love a man and all i want for are women. it goes doubly so as a femme4butch lesbian butch's are my allies my people my community my loves and my muses and same to all my fellow femmes. i could never imagine a life without lesbianism❤️🧡🤍🩷💜

[weirdly-specific-but-ok]

What do you think gay men are attracted to in men that they can’t be attracted to in women?

It can’t be anything about femininity or masculinity obviously. That’s both sexist, and cultural so can’t be what drives men-only attraction.

It can’t be anything about stated identity because someone could lie just as easily as they could tell the truth in such a statement, and it makes no sense because homosexuality and heterosexuality exists in other species with no stated identities. It’s not like other animals without gender are all pan.

Saying idk it’s the vibes or some indescribable trait men have that women can’t but “I can’t explain” is a nonanswer.

Soooooooo what is it? Or do you think any sexuality but bi/pan is just cultural performance or an identity rather than an inborn orientation?

- [ ]

I've let this ask sit in my inbox for a while, but I think it's time I answered it, though the answer will most certainly not be to your satisfaction, anon, I'm afraid.

First off, I'm a bisexual man, and so I definitely don't have any first hand experience of experiencing attraction to only one gender. And in these things, first hand experience is all that matters.

Secondly, as for other species, I have insufficient information about zoological studies in this field, but I don't think it's as simple as you make it sound (this isn't intended to be hostile, I'm just wondering)?

As for the last part, I certainly don't presume to define sexualities as fitting strictly into one of the boxes of culture, identity or inborn orientation. I'm sure that there are more perspectives on this than I can imagine, and I'm equally sure that the experiences of these queer people are valid.

Mainly, the reason I decided to answer this despite it being a non-answer, as you said, is because I do have something to say.

I'm not in the habit of forming opinions of subjects that I have insufficient information about. I know that being seen as neutral is often vilified. I've been in that position, being angry about people's neutrality regarding topics that to me seem obvious. I no longer agree with past-me on that stance.

I would rather not, in my ignorance, cause damage. I think that people with very strong uneducated opinions cause a good deal more harm than those who stay silent in a conflict they know nothing about. Of course this won't be true in all cases.

But personally, I prefer handing the mic over, as it were, to people with more experience, knowledge, sensitivity and perspective about the issue than I.

So, yes, I'll have to go with a very unambiguous lack of an answer here. I simply do not know enough about this, anon. Non-answers, I'm afraid, are going to be inevitable in deeply personal discussions such as these. These non-answers are invariably better than the divisive discourse, invalidation and gatekeeping that occurs a lot.

Let's all be a bit more okay with saying I don't know. I'm trying to be more okay with it every day. I cannot educate myself perfectly about every single relevant topic. I think that's alright. I hope it is.

[t4tdanvis]

"lesbian is nonbinary people and women exclusively loving other nonbinary people and women, it cant be mspec" interesting. so how do you define "nonbinary"? answer quickly

[bthebunnie]

🩵⛓️The best torment is distraction from your pleasure, it's so fun making you try and think when you can't even speak ☁️✨

It's all a fun game at your own expense 🖤

[disappointmentthemusical]

on the lesbian gender spectrum:

the system of gender is held up by patriarchy (and white supremacy), and the result of this is: the binary gender "woman" is inherently dependent on the binary gender "man." De-centering men is the only way to liberate yourself from the confines of "mainstream gender," and this can only be done to completion by no longer engaging with cis men romantically and sexually. The automatic, complete de-centering of men via lesbianism bears a new gender spectrum, a lesbian one.

[starchilddante]

If labels don't matter, and you "can't change the facts" then why is it so hard for you to just let people be who they want to be and respect them?

You want to hurt them. You want to rub their face in the dirt while you prove how right you are. You want them to feel humiliated and helpless.

Don't you pretend you're anything good. Don't pretend like you care about people or children and making the world a better place. You are just an insecure child, looking for someone easy to hurt, someone you can make cry, just so you don't feel small.

If labels really don't matter to you, why do you have to go and try to tear down what makes people happy?

[justdavina]

I love red heads. I love this picture ..... I wish she was mine.

[teaktty]

Okay, so i think these are pretty much my pride flags. I also have a progress flag, sunset lesbian, and a trans flag with the transgender symbol.

I love you! Know yourself, be happy and proud.

[acowardinmordor]

My brain won't shut up about this, so maybe if I write it my brain will let me finish working and get this massive work project off my plate.

Warning for Accidental Drunken Pregnancy

Fandom loves, correctly, the idea of Girl!Steve Harrington, either as an 'always a' or trans, we're a fan. And that's good. No arguments from me there.

But I was thinking about Always a Girl Eddie. And the impact that would have. Because see, Eddie is already Wrong in a lot of ways. She's poor, she's loud, she's a freak, she sells drugs, and starts shit with bullies. She's too much in every way, and she refuses to be a girl properly. Has ever since she was old enough to express an opinion.

She didn't want to play with dolls or play house. She wanted to run through the park chasing dragons. When her parents fought, she wanted to run away and get found by the Addams family where no one would be mad at her for liking black and reading about blood and fights and monsters.

By the time she's in high school, everyone's decided she's a lesbian. She isn't. She thinks she isn't, but she doesn't get a chance to try or test or find out before the whole damn town has made it Known. Eddie doesn't wear skirts, and she doesn't style her hair, and she doesn't listen when the counselor sits her down to talk about her behavior and how she needs to try to be a bit more like other girls if she wants to get married one day. That's her junior year, which is when she snaps and, true or not, goes on a rant about being a carpet munching butch who never wants to have a husband.

Her friends don't care. They've talked to her and agree its all bullshit. Her only regret about it is that her outburst becomes fodder for the kind of bias that makes her fail two classes her senior year. It makes her fail four her second time around. PE is one of them. The teacher won't let her participate if she isn't 'dressed appropriately' which suddenly requires that all the girls have their legs shaved. Surprise surprise, Eddie is the only one that has an impact on. Wayne gets into a shouting match over it, and he wins, but not in time for Eddie to pass.

And every time someone pushes her to be more ladylike, Eddie doubles down on being a freak because she's a lot of things, but she's not a quitter. The one good she knows she manages is that barely any other girls in Hawkins get bullied all that much. Eddie pulls too much attention, and Eddie is so far off the end of the scale, it makes the minor mistakes easy to ignore.

All her friends are guys because the girls of Hawkins are scared of the witch/lesbian/succubus/whatever bs they came up with this week. There are some girls who Eddie thinks want to come talk to her, thinks she'd be friends with if she could, but any girl willingly hanging around the Freak is going to get painted with the same brush.

She showed up to every single class in her third go around, daring her teachers to fail her again when she was getting perfect scores on anything with a straight answer, and doing so well on the subjective stuff they were giving her passing grades. She had a new flock of sheep who didn't care about the rumors because she ran Hellfire for them.

After Spring Break, after they accuse her of seducing and murdering Chrissy, after Eddie walks into Mordor and is dragged out the other side. After Eddie gives everything she has for a town that hates her, the school gives her the diploma. Maybe its just because they're terrified that she'll come back for a fourth try if they don't, but she has the damn thing.

Or maybe they don't want the new freshmen to start crying when they see her scars.

After the hospital lets them all leave, and after El and Will do whatever it is they do and promise it's over for real this time, Robin, Eddie, and Harrington sit around and watch crap movies and talk. It's still June when Robin comes out to her, and Eddie has to awkwardly explain that she isn't. Supportive, in favor of it, but not sure if she's like Robin.

"But everyone heard about what you said to--"

"Yeah, she was telling me I should start curling my hair and wearing makeup so I could find a husband."

"She did not."

"Yeah. I kinda snapped."

A few minutes tearing apart that kind of thinking later, and Steve asks, "So you like dudes?"

Eddie shrugs, because she's never tested that either. A bit of leftover enmity from when he was the King and she was the Freak keeps her from admitting she's a virgin. Instead she gestures to her face and neck, the part of her chest visible around her tank top.

"Don't think that's going to matter, Stevie, not now that I look like the Wicked Witch midway through melting."

There's nothing either of them can say about that. Between her status as a murder suspect, the infection from Upside Down dirt, and how efficient the demo bat fuckers were, her scars are ugly. Not the sort of thing she's read in books that a hero learns to take pride in. Just a mess. Her smile is jacked up on the left, and while she does have both of her nipples, the one boob is significantly smaller, and lumpier than the other now.

But they're friends, and its nice. Robin didn't find a fellow lesbian, but Eddie can understand the way she feels, and they bond over it. Where Robin goes, so goes Steve, so intentional or not, Eddie and Steve get close. Help each other with scar cream type close. It would be weird if there was any universe in which Steve would ever be interested in her. Instead they're good friends, and co-conspirators against the gremlins.

Robin is starting college in the spring semester in Chicago. Steve is going with her. Obviously. Eddie hasn't agreed to anything, but she's considering it.

They have one last party at Harrington's place. The kids leave around seven. The Hellfire guys leave around nine. By eleven, all three of them are plastered, and Robin is lamenting that she's leaving Hawkins and still hasn't kissed a girl. Eddie rolls her eyes and smacks one on her. Get it over and done with, right?

After an hour of Robin flustered and babbling about 'yes, yes, yeah, I do like girls! Kissing! Kissing girls is great! Steve! Steve-o! Did you know kissing girls is great?" she passes out on the couch.

Steve and Eddie, just sober enough to know that they're all going to be hungover in the morning, close blinds and lock doors. They leave water and asprin by Robin, then chug down a glass each.

"So, did it help you figure it out? Kissing my Soulmate with a capital P? Did you figure out if you like kissing girls more than guys?"

Eddie giggles instead of answering.

"I know Rob's not kissed anyone, but if you liked kissing her you probably could tell, right? So if you liked kissing her as much as you like kissing guys, or if its not like kissing guys, then you know!"

Steve's not a dumb as the kids joke. When Eddie doesn't answer, he puts it together. "Oh. Oh shit. Eds. You and Robin were each others' first kisses? Thats so -- you didn't have to do that! And now you don't know if you like kissing girls or guys or both or neither or -- Oh!"

Eddie watches Steve come to his decision and turn, and she decides to let it happen. Steve is the only guy her age who doesn't wince looking at her face. This is probably the only chance she's got until she's old enough her skin gets all wrinkly and no one can see the scars are there anymore.

It's better than kissing Robin. There's a lot of reasons why that might be true, but none of them matter, because after that first one. After a few seconds pause. After she leans a little closer like she's asking, they don't stop.

She wakes up naked and sore, with a blinding headache and the tight-skin pain that comes from forgetting the scar cream.

Awkward doesn't cover it when they look at each other in bed. When Robin trips on her way to make coffee, it gives them an excuse not to talk about it. It's bad enough that Eddie keeps thinking about it, and excavating the fragments of memory she's got. Probably the only chance she's going to get, and she remembers barely half. She does remember liking it, and Steve liking it, and neither of them being weird about the scars because they've been helping each other with them for months now.

Once they're sober enough for it, they talk, both of them apologizing, but not really. Neither of them regret it, even if it wasn't their best idea, and Eddie starts quoting Robin's rant about antiquated concepts of virginity when Steve tries to apologize for that. It's definitely weird, but they're not going to freak out about it.

By Wednesday, when Steve and Rob are loading up the beemer to drive north before the holidays, so they could get a place with a rental discount, everyone turns out to say bye. Eddie winks at Robin again, because it still makes her blush, and it still makes Eddie and Steve laugh when she does. She gives Steve a hug, and a promise to make a decision soon about moving up with them.

Six weeks of scheduled phone calls with them, and uncomfortable talks with Wayne, Eddie has finally, finally decided to go for it. She'll still be a freak, but according to Steve, no one in the city will bother her about it unless she asks them to. He's working at a diner, and swears the bookstore across the street will totally hire Eddie if she applies. Robin loves her classes, and her part time hours at the library on campus.

It's while Eddie is looking around and opening drawers, trying to plan how to move with more detail than 'throw stuff in the van' that she notices. There's a box of pads, mostly empty, in the corner of the bathroom cabinet. It's been mostly empty since November. And yeah, her period has never been predictable, and this isn't the longest its gone, and Eddie has never cared since she wears black all the time -- but. This time she had sex.

The odds are tiny, and the image of it is ridiculous. Eddie isn't any kind of a mom. Harrington is more a mom than she is. Anyway, all that shit in sex ed about it only takes once is crap. And she remembers Steve getting out the box of condoms. She doesn't remember anything between that and getting fucked, but she definitely remembers how concerned he was about opening the foil. So there's no way. No chance. Absolutely none.

The test comes back positive, and the nurse at the planed parenthood in Indianapolis asks if she wants to hear about her options.

It's pretty easy to choose as it turns out. Easier than quitting smoking cold turkey is for sure. Hell of a lot easier than telling Wayne. It's not something she ever wanted, ever thought about or considered, but Eddie knows this is the only chance she's got. Well. Sperm donors maybe, not that she'll ever have the money for it, unless she paid a guy to keep coming around until she got knocked up.

At first, she keeps it quiet because the nurse told her about the potential problems, especially with how much Eddie drank and smoked. It's not certain, so she stays quiet. Stalls the topic of moving up. She waits an entire day for the doctor to slip her in between appointments to get an ultrasound and check. Everything looks good. Healthy. and Eddie gets on their weekly scheduled call, hears Robin and Steve laughing as they tell stories, and Eddie breaks it to them.

"What do you mean? You said you were going to move up here. I thought you said you -- Eds, what the hell? You're going to leave me alone to watch Robin's attempts at flirting? You - I thought you promised."

"Excuse you, Dingus, she needs to come up so we can watch your attempts at flirting. I'm great."

"Fun as that sounds, me and Wayne are getting out of Hawkins. Wayne has some family in West Virginia, and I can't leave him at the mercy of all those spinsters. I'll still have a phone, you know."

They move before she's showing, and Wayne never asks, and Eddie never tells, but her uncle knows who it has to be. They land in Summersville, which is a damn lie since its a blizzard when they arrive. It isn't hard to use moving as an excuse to cancel a few phone calls. Then uses a boss moving her hours working at motel as an excuse when hormones means she knows she'll start sobbing if she gets picks up the phone.

Steve gets accepted to a community college. Robin aces her exams. Eddie finds out she's having a girl. She wouldn't have spent the money to find out since it wouldn't change anything, but the planned parenthood was still worried because of the alcohol at the start.

Wayne brings it up. Eddie considers it.

Steve gets a girlfriend. Eddie stalls.

Robin calls solo because Steve is on a one month anniversary date.

Eddie abandons the idea.

She never makes a choice to hide it from anybody. It's always one moment at a time, needing to get through one more thing, one more problem, one more checkpoint, then she could say it. By the end of July it's been too long, and it would be too weird. They didn't have some great tragic romance. They were good friends who got drunk one night. And Eddie is just living up to the warnings all the guidance counselors scribbled down about her.

She's never going to be anything special. She's not going to go chase her dreams and become the Joan Jett of metal music. She's coming up on eight months pregnant, can't hide it or pretend its something it isn't. She's still loud and obnoxious. She still wears all black and chained pants and refuses to style her hair in anything more complex than a ponytail. She's still mauled by monsters and scarred.

She's never going to be marriage material, and never wanted to be anyway. She can be a good mom though. Not a normal mom. Or a traditional one. She's probably going to end up punching someone at a pta meeting. But she can be a good mom for her daughter, whoever her daughter wants to be as she grows. And if that means she has to learn about ballet and glitter and my little pony, then she will.

Steve and Robin ask about a visit before their classes start since they'll have to do calls every other week now. They offer to drive to West Virginia, or buy Eddie a bus ticket. Eddie manages to dodge that bullet.

She dodges another when she starts contractions while on the phone with them, and plays it off like she has heartburn. She cries when she holds her daughter thirty hours later, smiling broad enough that the scars on her face hurt nearly as bad as the rest of her.

She gets good at sewing together a patchwork lie. Gets Wayne to take Lulu out for a walk during calls. Swallows the guilt when Steve talks about his girlfriend, Amy, who wants to have kids. Stares down the pediatrician who raises an eyebrow at her daughter's name.

It's awful. It's wonderful. It hurts more to do it alone than Eddie could have imagined, but she still can't bring herself to say it. Not because she thinks Steve would hate her for it . He wouldn't. One look at Stephanie Luthien Munson -- Lulu -- and Steve would know. And Steve would stay. And Steve would give up his classes and his girlfriend and his hope for his perfect family. Eddie has always known she's not what anyone is looking for.

So Eddie gets good at dodging questions, and explaining away noises in the background, and finding very reasonable excuses not to come out to visit. Very good at it.

She makes it to June of 1989, when her best friends decide it's been too long, and show up for a surprise visit.

Eddie was right though. It only takes a glance at the toddler on Eddie's hip as she opens the door for both of them to know.

[cyanide-sippy-cup]

Oh for crying out-

Yall I'm so for real right now, if I have to see one more person say something like "a Lesbian can't date a Trans man, it's disrespectful to both identities!" I will lose my goddamn mind.

The problem here is that you are conflating "Lesbian" with "only likes girls" and Trans man with "guy who previously identified as a woman". And these are both true, however there is one very important aspect you forgot while piecing these together.

Sexuality and gender identity are both fluid.

You saw the labels and logically thought "well Lesbians like girls, therefore being interested in a Trans man would be invalidating to his gender identity". But you forgot that key factor. We don't choose who we are attracted to. It's what we've been saying this whole time while the hets tell us to choose straightness.

Nobody ever falls into labels perfectly. If they did, history would be much simpler. But nobody gets to choose the way they feel. This is how these labels were formed to begin with. You think there was always a word for Nonbinary? Nope. But people explored, they learned about themselves and realized they didn't fit the bubbles that were already made.

Hell, I've had a Lesbian friend confess she had feelings for me even while I was a guy. To look her in the eyes and tell her that she's not a Lesbian anymore, that she needs to find a new label because this one isn't for her? That is what's disrespectful to her identity, not her own feelings.

I'm not saying these words don't have meaning, they do. And the distinguishment between them is very important. But like all things, they are still fluid. There is a difference between man and woman but that doesn't stop yours truly from being here.

If the fluidity of these things did not exist, many of the labels you like to force people in would not either. And once we begin adding ridged borders to what dictates who people can be, we become the same as the people who would have us dead.