#that asoiaf will never really address that feeling

[thaliajoy-blog]

Thinking of the whole discourse in hotd around who should be queen/king..like going back to even the beginning like Visenya should have been the main monarch or Rhaena daughter of Aenys should have been his successor and then Aerea, Rhaenys, Rhaenyra and on and on for every case and like, on principle I agree. But like each time it bitterly reminds me that even if its progress it's still within the confines of a feudal monarchy that has authority over the masses through their violence and like...it's kind of a a "yeah we get to have female tyrants now, gender-inclusive feodality" cause at the end of it yeah you did replace a bad law by a better one with good opportunities for change but ultimately...it's still firstborn child of an hereditary dynasty taking control and being 99% of the time relatively detached from the intererests of the people they rule & very much incentivized to keep their own power, priviledges & dominion standing.

[lemonhemlock]

It’s very amusing that Condal clearly wants to adapt AFFC, and how people eat it up despite it not being earned. AFFC was the fourth book of the series, after the beheading of Ned, Winterfell falling, Jaime losing his hand, the Red Wedding, the Purple Wedding. All the reasons for why the War of the Five Kings is over, all those people are either dead or scattered to the wind, and yet the war rages on. It’s a pointless war that characters we have grown to know and love undergo intense changes in, notably Jaime and Brienne as they wander through the Riverlands, Arya in Braavos, Sam on the edge of despair as he journeys south. Frankly? Considering that the Dance hasn’t even properly started yet and no one cares about the deaths that have occurs (Luke, Jaehaerys, Rhaenys) the sheer fatalism feels unearned bc no one has gone through gut wrenching tragedy yet. “War is pointless.” Great, but we got another two seasons of this and if the characters think this story is dumb and pointless and are just going through the motions, why should we watch? It’s frankly just too early for everyone to lose their shit bc they haven’t even begin to truly lose everything yet. The characters themselves thinking it’s pointless robs them of motivations bc we still got more than half the story to go! Criston’s monologue in the finale is good but that’s because it’s directly cribbed from Jaime’s “honor is mist” speech but it’s not nearly as earned bc we don’t have any idea how or why he started sleeping with Alicent or even why he became a kingsguard in the first place! Daemon’s Harrenhal arc ended with him somehow obsessed with a prophecy and connecting it back to Rhaenyra without him coming to terms with Viserys not trusting him with the prophecy which is what he was mad about in the first place!

We never actually see anyone react to anything, and the limping plodding along of character development happening off screen so we never see how or why anyone changes is not good! Episode 7 actually gave me some hope bc Rhaenyra seemed to be embracing her role as a leader of there’s dragonriders the gods have given her, but in the next episode she’s literally saying the exact same lines “what would you have me do” and “who will pay the price” which she said at the start of the season! Even Alicent’s about face is unearned bc we don’t actually see her truly fight with her children about anything, really. She just lets them talk in her face and then limps away to camp in a scene that’s “all about rebirth bc baptism and water” without ever getting to the core of anything. It’s a beautiful show full of empty symbolism without a narrative actually underpinning it, borrowing from a better story without understanding what makes that story so good.

You said it more eloquently than I could at the moment. It's not just one or two badly executed points, nothing gets built up, nothing gets resolved or even discussed, we just skip past A TON of vital characterisational changes and are expected to "fill in the gaps". No, they're just bad at writing. You wouldn't be reading a book or watching a show that is so bad at these elements - people are watching because it's ASOIAF.

Why is Alicent so mad? Aegon has barely done anything as king, he's actually tried to help the smallfolk in his audiences! Aemond dismissed her from the Council, sure, which I found a dumb political plot hole, but she hasn't done much to address it? And what exactly has Criston Cole done all season that he is the most reprehensible male character on the show? He didn't vote for Alicent and called her by her name. Does he deserve to die for that? Has Alicent ever been portrayed as the type of character who would react so disproportionately? That's Aemond-level writing. Is Alicent = Aemond now? (She isn't even shown being mad at Criston for sending Arryk after Rhaenyra!)

What Alicent is shown to have a problem with is Aemond burning Aegon. But then again why abandon Aegon to be executed by Rhaenyra? Just overdose him on milk of the poppy and let him die, ffs. Alicent also suspects Criston is not telling her about Aemond's crime, but they part on okay terms? She gives him her favour? How do you go from that to dooming him by revealing his coordinates?

I would really like to pile on-to the AFFC copycat accusations* with Succession rip-offs (my followers are probably tired of hearing me mention it, but it's truly what prestige television should be and it's what we should be comparing HotD to!). First it was teenage!Aegon wanking in the window à la Roman Roy, then Alicent suddenly gets water symbolism this season like Kendall and "I do not wish to hear it"? Do they think they're being cute here?

*not just with Criston, but with Rhaena, too, although you could at least argue there that GRRM himself is also mirroring Jaime and Sansa there

[goodqueenaly]

Is there much in the text to really get a sense of the relationship between Aegon III and Jaehaera? it seems like there was not any investigation of her death and wondering if that's a sign of anything? Maybe because of just reading on investigation of Amy Robsart's death from a fall that my mind went to the mystery around Queen Jaehaera. Unsure if it makes sense, but reading fan message boards on the topic where a prevalent idea Aegon III was too young to have made a fuss one way or the other.

Inherent to Fire and Blood Volume 1 - and this is one of the major weaknesses of the book IMO - is that we as readers are kept at arm’s length from the characters GRRM (via Gyldayn) describes. Because the conceit of the book is that it was written by a maester living more than a century and a half after most of the events he records, we cannot have the same personal narrative experience of characters that we get in ASOIAF or the Tales of Dunk and Egg. Consequently, we are far more limited in how much we can say about the personal feelings of any given character, or the personal relationship between any two characters. (Except the points in the book when GRRM decided to forgo the conceit entirely, but that’s a different story.)

To the extent that we do get any insight into the relationship between Aegon III and Jaehaera, Gyldayn emphasizes the lack of personal interaction between the two. Gyldayn states that the two “had very little contact with one another [after the wedding] save on formal occasions”. Even interactions on such occasions were apparently rare, according to Gyldayn, because “the little queen was loath to leave her chambers” and “never left her own apartments”. Too, Gyldayn states that after Unwin Peake took over the regency government, “Queen Jaehaera hid in seclusion in her chambers” while “King Aegon trained in the yard by morning and stared at the stars by night”. (Note that while Gyldayn reports the contemporary rumors that Jaehaera killed herself out of grief that she “loved [Aegon] with all her heart, yet he paid her no mind, showed her no affection” and “did not even share his rooms with her”, Gyldayn provides no source for this rumor, and indeed admits the higher likelihood that Jaehaera was murdered.)

Of course, it is very understandable why Aegon and Jaehaera would not have been very close to other another. As Grand Maester Munkun himself noted at the time, “[b]oth of them [were] broken”, very much traumatized by the tragedies they had witnessed firsthand or experienced in their still-short lives: the violence and cruelty of Blood and Cheese, the assault on Aegon and Viserys’ ship in the Narrow Sea followed by Aegon’s harrowing flight home on Stormcloud (and the loss, seemingly permanently, of his younger brother), the deaths of nearly every member of their respective immediate families (including the immolation and draconic devouring of Aegon’s mother in front of him). Add to all of this whatever GRRM wanted to imply with Jaehaera in babyhood - that from her birth Jaehaera “did not cry … did not smile … did none of the things a babe was meant to do” - and it’s pretty evident that both Aegon and Jaehaera were deeply scarred children suffering from severe emotional trauma that really no one in-universe was trying to treat (even if any would have been equipped to do so, which is far from certain). Brought together in a solely political marriage (itself aimed to address the violent recently ended war between their dead parents), deeply scarred while still young children - after all, we’re talking about an 11-year-old and an eight-year-old - neither Aegon nor Jaehaera was positioned personally or emotionally to become close to the other. 

It’s also important to note that whatever Aegon’s feelings toward his late “little queen” were either ahead of and/or immediately after her death, he was (purposefully) given very little opportunity to consider, much less mourn, her passing (read: murder). Unwin Peake, having had Jaehaera killed by his agents Mervyn Peake and Tessario the Tiger, moved with what both contemporaries and Gyldayn the historian considered unseemly, openly ambitious speed to force Aegon into another betrothal, specifically to his own daughter. Indeed, Ben Blackwood “questioned the haste of” the betrothal, as in his mind “Aegon should have been allowed half a year at least to mourn his little queen” (in, perhaps, standard Westerosi fashion for widowers). Whether or not Aegon would have actually wanted to or felt prepared to mourn Jaehaera - and again, the lack of introspection forced by the conceit of F&B really limits how much we can speculate on his feelings - he himself was thrust, suddenly and unwillingly, into the role of new bridegroom, faced with the prospect of marrying yet another unknown maiden while he himself was still suffering so much.

As far as the lack of investigation goes … I think the regency council and court became distracted too quickly by the question of Aegon’s remarriage to consider the manner of Jaehaera’s death. Because Peake had moved with such “presumptuous” speed in trying to slip Myrielle into Jaehaera’s place, the other regents and the Westerosi aristocracy at large had to react very quickly to what was very obviously a power play on Unwin’s part. The flurry of responses, both censuring and nuptial, to Unwin’s move, and the subsequent recalibration of his plan into the Maiden’s Day Cattle Show, meant that the matter of Jaehaera’s death lost its immediate significance. With “no shred of proof” against Unwin for Jaehaera’s death (as Gyldayn is at pains to insist), very little way to prove Unwin’s guilt beyond a confession from any of the conspirators involved, and an ostensibly plausible explanation for her death (in the deliberate parallel between Jaehaera and her mother), Jaehaera’s murder was simply not a target for inquiry. Nor, of course, would Peake have encouraged any real investigation into Jaehaera’s death, considering he himself arranged the murder in the first place: indeed, Unwin brutally distracted from his own guilt in the matter by having his ally George Graceford torture the queen’s servants for inconsequential misdeeds and mistakes and his other ally Lucas Leygood arrest and torture a septa merely for words against Jaehaera. 

(Incidentally, I wrote about Amy Dudley’s death a while ago.)

[ofbreathandflame-archive]

Here's my thing: Why join (or continually contribute) a fandom with an author who is known to be racist -- that is racist by your own admission -- and then get mad when other people continually talk about those problems?

I'm not even saying fandoms can't reclaim and participate in fandoms with irksome authors -- I'm saying that when you're in those fandoms and you seem irritable at those critiques then there are some ideological problems there. I like ASOIAF but I live for the scathing anti-criques because they're absolutely right. I scroll through like yep, yep, yep. It never bothers me, not even a little. That's for every fandom I participate in. Because racism is never just an irksome problem, it should never get on your nerves, and I could talk about it all day. Because when you look at the world through the lens of a black woman (and other women of color ofc) you are NEVER not going to see it. I like TVD but there was so much shit one dealt with, that we had to actively ignore for the sake of being able to enjoy the show. I really wish I could ignore it all, but sorry not sorry.

I feel like a lot of people like to make their annual post about SJM's racism, and then don't want to consider two things (1) that the racism isn't actually isolated and permeates throughout all of her works and (2) there are consequences (or at least there should be) to being racist. Even if you have somehow come to terms with the racism in the story, that doesn't mean other people will or have to. The only way we even begin to solve the problem is by continually talking about it. It's just very crazy, IMO, to say that we are allowed to be upset -- but not in a way that disrupts your fandom experiences. That little irritation you feel every time a new post hits the anti-tag is racism. That little irritation you feel every time someone brings up Nehemia and the problems in Throne of Glass -- is also racism. I may be over the character conversation, but I'm not over the ones like these that have real consequences in the world of literature. It's just very frustrating to see people turn criticism of SJM's writing into a misogyny problem when the majority of the people doing the criticism are women of color.

LIKE -- are we supposed to talk about the racism once every blue moon for kudos points and then go back to pretending it doesn't exist? What are we gaining with that approach quickly?

The anti-anti sentiment is tired, and much more representative of people's unwillingness to address the problems than anything else. Like y'all are asking a group of people to....sympathize with someone who doesn't see her black readers as human enough to live on the page/?? Human enough to be represented as actual, complex human beings -- it don't sound wild to y'all? I'm pro anti for any racist author who crawls up the depths into the light of the publishing industry.

We complained about Nehemia and not only were we met with silence -- she did it AGAIN. And then stuck the remaining mixed race women with the man the story thought needed to be redeemed, with the main whose people enslaved her own -- and then the next black women we met come in the form of servents, and then the next black women as jealousy fodder, and then the next black women is brutally murdered, debased -- and I think has her head shaved, and that was FOR HELPING the main character. Then the next black woman is sidelined for the villainous, blonde-haired sister who got all of two words in the first book of CC. Lack of diversity is bad, but not inherently racist -- rather a symptom of white privilege. I wouldn't fret about it. Conscious, negative, and continuous bad representation is another thing entirely.

Anywho may the anti-community continue to thrive for this and any other racist author ❤️

[snowblack-charcoalwhite]

Do you think that HotD creators are trying to recreate certain moments, quotes and even characters from GoT? I've seen this mentioned many times and I cannot say I disagree in general . For example, Daenerys imagery through Rhaenyra, Daemon being introduced in a Jaime Lannister style, sitting on the throne, too cool for the rules... Then smallfolk riots in KL with Helaena and Alicent in Sansa's role, certain one liners, the dagger and the prophecy ... There are many examples, really. I also saw a great analysis here about which characters (don't remember the creator now) from GoT they're trying to revive, e. g. Ned Stark with Viserys, Jon Snow with Jace, Dany with Rhaenyra, Jaime with Daemon, Littlefinger with Otto... I don't think these people are wrong, there is definitely certain aspirations from hotd writes to try and imitate some aspects of GOT because they see it as a recipe for success, and that's not necessarily a bad thing but is something they need to be careful with. The Dance should be be a whole new and different story and not a bunch of callbacks and references to another show. Anyway, have you noticed this or you disagree? Are there storylines and characters in hotd that seem to be types we already seen in GoT (some of the most mentioned are Daemon-Jaime, Rhaenyra - Dany Otto - Littlefinger, Larys - Varys, Aegon - Robert and Joffrey, Aemond - Ramsay (especially if they go with book accurate version from s2 onward). I disagree with most of these comparisons and I believe they are more fan inventions than necessarily something that the writers wanted to convey, but there are reasons for these parallels and I would like to hear what do you think.

Love your blog btw.

Hello! Thank you for the ask - and for the compliment:) And my apologies for the delay with answering.

In my opinion, HotD is definitely making callbacks (and a lot of them) to GoT - and the main reason for that is, as you said yourself, their reliance on the fame (and overall success - even taking into account the significant decrease in quality in later seasons) of the original show. And they are not alone in this: today a lot of ambitious media projects are sequels, prequels, remakes etc. of some successful, or even iconic, media created in the past years. I am definitely not against this on principle: for me the problems begin when a project is clearly being designed to either evoke a feeling of nostalgia or simply milk the popularity of the original media while lacking the actual quality itself.

As for the Rhaenyra - Daenerys parallel, I think that HotD is definitely going there intentionally in their desire to "atone" in some way for the way the latter was treated in season 8 of GoT after getting tons of fanhate for making a villain out of a female character (and not realizing that at least half of the complaints were about how poorly it was done and not even about the fact itself). And this is how we got a Rhaenyra who can't even order Vaemond's execution herself.

As for the other parallels - well, the imagination can run wild there. IMO Otto resembles Littlefinger just with the general scheming thing (he has always seemed more Tywin Lannister-ish to me) - and ASOIAF world definitely doesn't lack schemers. Aemond and Ramsay? Once again, the similarities are extremely superficial, as in both of them committing acts of cruelty - but Aemond wasn't a sadist, for starters, and, once again, there are A LOT of cruel characters doing cruel things in that universe. Aegon - Joffrey comparison doesn't work for me either (I addressed it in one of my earlier posts). The most ridiculous one, as I see it, is the Ned Stark - Viserys one. Comparing a man whose life was basically all about making hard decisions (which he did based on what he deemed to be right and honorable) to one who never had the guts to make even one and allowed his selfishness, weakness and self-pity to guide him which basically led to civil war that laid the foundation for the fall of his house? Nice try, guys.

Are the showrunners going for all the above mentioned parallels intentionally though? It seems to be the case with Aegon if we go by their own words; it might be the case with the rest of them judging by some of the official HBO Instagram stuff dropped earlier this week. Although, between HBO SM accounts messing up Vhagar's gender and posting a photo of Beyonce in all-black outfit with a caption along the lines of "Queen Bee has chosen the side", I don't even know what kind of professionals even run these accounts anymore.

Once again, thank you for the interesting ask, and all the best to you!

[sweetestpopcorn]

Hello, I wanted to ask you: how do you interpret Daemon's relationship with his stepchildren? Do you think the "eye for an eye, son for son" was entirely something he did out of love for Rhaenyra who was suffering after Luke's death or that he also did it out of some of his own affection for him? How would you describe "Blood and Cheese" at the level of emotional motivation?

Hi there :D

I hope you are well and if it's the case, happy holidays 🤗

So I currently have like 10 asks? Of people asking me for headcanons about the "Velaryon princes" but because youR question is slightly different and has different parts, I will answer it here but in a very summarised way.

You can read about my take on Daemon's revenge here and what I think was driving him. Regarding his relationship with his stepsons, I already partly address it on the post I have linked, but in sum I would say, he was the only father the "Velaryon" princes ever knew as they were 5, 4, and 3 when Daemon married Rhaenyra. Laenor was almost never present, and the fact that the "Velaryon" princes never once mention Harwin Strong is a strong indicator that he wasn't really around either, understandably so, as it would make many faces frown.

About Daemon's feelings for them, it is very likely he would want to get rid of them at one point. After all, he had two legitimate sons and he (and most men in the asoiaf universe) does not strike me as the type of man who would willingly watch his sons being passed over in favour of three boys who had no true right to the throne. This being said, I don't think Daemon hated them, if he indeed did it, it wouldn't be anything personal. I also think any relationship he had with them was mostly because of Rhaenyra and to keep Rhaenyra happy. Likely he did develop some feelings along the line, the "Velaryon" princes are described as very good kids, and popular too, but it would never come close to the feelings he had for his true children, especially his two sons.

Hope my question was satisfactory :D have a great 2024!

PS: Books only.

[thesilverlady]

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/status/1646203900876275728?t=UYts_rNLy2Y7cDcgD78oJA&s=19

no them wanting to butcher another story 😭

for anyone curious, this is what the link I'd about

this is the only time I'll address the spin offs and listen, I appreciate all the asks I get but I really don't want this to turn into a hate page. I prefer discussing themes, ships, characters - whether based on canon or fanon it's fine with me!

So, eh I'm cautious about this but I don't have any feelings in particular because I've never read "A knight of the seven kingdoms" books. I really want to one day, but in a university students so I have little time for anything these days 😔

With that being said, I'm just very relieved the conquerors are safe. The amount of discourse I saw only from the possibility of a spin off was insane.

nowadays I think the only way to do asoiaf universe justice would be though an animation only. I've seen some fans trying and they've done a stunning job. So bigger studious could definitely do it.

Will it ever happen? In my dreams only.

I think what bothers me a lot about these spins offs is how they're about the Targaryens and the people who do them always turn up to be a hater of them, so it's valid why lots of people have negative feelings.

I have no idea if I'll watch it. Maybe after it airs, when the war between fans - of the show that will no doubt happen - will be more quiet and there's the apocalyptic silence, then I might seat down and give it a chance.

I've heard there are some other spin offs on the table; about Jon Snow, Corlys, Nymeria etc. I hope they do them so the fandom can shift the attention away from the targaryens

[hauntedheroines]

What are your favorite expressions of affection for a villain to use on a hero?

Send flowers to her address (implying that he is closer than she thinks) with a card “I’ll always be beside you” (The Juror) or “Soon” (BtVS)

Set up a meeting to discuss a truce at a special place (His childhood home or where they first met)

Use a love potion or send her to another reality (maybe a dream) to win time. Then realizes how much he enjoys this alternative world in which they could be together and doesn’t want the effect to wear off - at least not until she sees their potential and gives in. (The OA, A Forfeit of Dreams: Labyrinth Fanfic)

Kidnaps her and calls her his guest. Adapts the house to what she likes best: the clothes, the food, the room decor, everything. Bonus: makes her awake in a gorgeous dress (implying that he saw her naked).

Uses an instrument of torture or stalking in a romantic manner. Examples: A heart pedant with a microphone input (The Juror, Shades of Blue), or a lie detector to make her hear her own heart and his (The OA).

Starts a war or haunts her (With monsters and hallucinations) until she has no other shelter but him (ASoIaF, The Grisha Trilogy and Penny Dreadful)

Shows her she has always craved for excitement. Tells her she would never settle for a normal guy because she is too ambitious and adventurous; that what she really wants is someone who matches her, challenges her. To show her exotic places of magic and danger. Give her something memorable.

If her hero love interest makes a mistake, makes sure to remind her of his unheroic attitude, saying something “Is he really that better than me?”, “At least I’m honest about what I am” or “I would never do that”. Bonus if the hero was unfaithful (The OA, The Grisha Trilogy)

Doesn’t gives her regular gifts every woman would die for, like dresses and jewels. Gives her books, horses or a garden, showing he knows her better than she thinks (Robin Hood, Ivanhoe)

Describes her most intimate self in a poetic manner, like comparing her to spring still clinging to winter’s chill (LoTR)

Tells her one information about his plans in exchange for one secret of hers. Trades knowledge that might help her to defeat him or another villain for the opportunity of getting to know her better (Silence of the Lambs)

Physically and mentally connects her to him through a supernatural bound. Casts a spell or make a blood pact with her (If he is a vampire, that works pretty fine). This will provide that they can read each other’s mind, know what the other person is feeling, or when they are nearby, etc… and makes it hard for her to forget him.

Tells her everything he is doing is to protect her from worse things people who hired him would do. Tries to make her feel he is on her side, despite that his job is to extort her. (Red Eye, The Juror and The Net)

Drag Her to the Gutter With Him

Removes competition in the traditional matter: Kills it. Gives her his rival’s head on a plate. Bonus: Kill her friends and family as well, so she really has no more reason to fight and just settles with the only companion left. (Harper’s Island)

[fedonciadale]

totally unrelated, but thanks to dozens of meta how darkdany was foreshadowed from the beginning, I started noticing that most of characters in popular culture are psychopats 😂. no wonder her stans are so mad - they saw people like her with happy endings hundred times so why can't their fave have one. Though still don't get why they blame sansa and sansa/jonsa stans for this. GRRM is god of asoiaf, whine to him, my dudes. Good day to you, Fedon 💞

Hi there!

Thank you and Yes!

I've talked about this several times. Audiences are so accustomed to characters with questionable methods and aims being framed and lauded as heroes and getting love and occasionally a good ending, that GRRM and his nuances go completely over their head.

It is a common pattern in story telling: Start with the hero as underdog and let them fight back (and sometimes the fighting back escalates) and in the end let them win. And if the hero/heroine does some grey stuff or even bad stuff on the way, surely you can overlook that, because of their backstory. The most important thing is that they win, isn't it? And I would argue that most of the times authors don't even realize that their character does some shit on their way to their victorious endgame. They get carried away by their pro hero bias. And the dehumanizing of the hero's enemies.

Take Harry Potter. I actually like Harry but by the end of the books he's quite generous with using unforgivables (although JKR makes an effort to avoid that he has to cast a killing curse) and even if it is in a way justified because they really need to defeat Voldemort and I don't have a huge problem with that, I do have a huge problem with the fact that it is never addressed that Harry gets compromised!

It should be obvious actually that Dany's goals are selfish. She doesn't want to liberate Westeros. She wants the throne (in a way because she finally wants to feel save and loved and that is tragic!), but she wants the power for herself. Her motivation is narcissist and her tale is not even that of a fallen hero who has the right motivations but gets lost on the way. Her story is the story of someone who has self-centered goals from the beginning, she only manages to align her goals to some seemingly benevolent and liberating causes.

It is a problem of audience's expectations, and the show did all it could to play into that.

I'm not entirely sure how much of that was true already when GRRM started the books but it is an interesting trend in modern media.

Thanks for the ask!

[aegor-bamfsteel]

do you think daemon and daenerys were really in love or their love story was just propaganda?

I’ve addressed my feelings about Daemon/Daenerys in this response about Daenerys’ character, and briefly to a baiting anon who insinuated it was propaganda. This pairing is no Rhaegar/Lyanna, where multiple people have their own views on whether Rhaegar loved her or it was prophecy or she loved him or she was kidnapped; everyone, Black or Red, from Doran Martell (Daenerys’ descendant by Maron Martell) to Ser Barristan (Kingsguard knight, Targaryen loyalist, and killer of Maelys Blackfyre) to Eustace Osgrey (landed knight who supported Daemon I in the first Rebellion) believes those two were in love. It’s not enough for Yandel to dismiss Daemon/Daenerys as Blackfyre propaganda when high ranking Targaryen descendants/supporters believe the story as well. If I needed any more proof, GRRM himself said in a 2012 interview: “Despite Daemon and Daenerys being in love, her brother the king, Da3ron the Good, was more concerned with matters of state than matters of love.” So due to all the evidence in favor, I believe that Daemon and Daenerys were about as in love as a 14-year-old knight and a 12-year old princess who happened to be half-siblings/cousins could be (I have very different feelings on young teens falling in love than GRRM does, considering Fire and Blood) Due to age and the established characters as we know them, I believe the relationship was chaste and ended after Daemon married Rohanne.

However, just because the relationship ended long before obviously doesn’t mean it wasn’t used by both sides to understand some of the causes of the First Rebellion. GRRM has used a romance to hide the serious political issues of ASOIAF military conflicts elsewhere: how Rhaegar/Lyanna is referred to as the cause of Robert’s Rebellion, casting Rhaegar as a tragic figure, when it was really the arrest warrant for Ned and Robert after Aerys had unlawfully executed Brandon and Rickard among others. Criston Cole’s motivation is given similar ambiguity in AFFC (ignoring how F&B1 made most of the Greens 1D villains here): whether it was to control a weaker king, to respect Andal custom, or because Rhaenyra had been his lover who later spurned him. It’s not a stretch—given the parallels between Ned/Robert and Daemon’s situation—that Da3ron’s arrest warrant for Daemon as the immediate cause for the Blackfyre rebellion gets “softened” in public consciousness by a star-crossed romance between Daemon and Daenerys. The rebellion against Da3ron had been brewing for years due to a stacked court/nepotism, an unbalanced treaty, unaddressed issues left from Aegon’s reign, etc—but the idea that Daemon/Daenerys had a romance ignores that and turns a war that tore the continent apart into an easy to understand, spurned lover drama. And that goes for both sides: the Reds believed these rumors as well, in order to avoid considering why half the kingdoms rebelled for a young landed knight with an Essosi wife. Xenophobia/racism plays into it also, since Daemon/Daenerys erases the Tyroshi Rohanne (which makes it easier to believe the Reds welcomed this propaganda, considering the Blackfyre supporters in exile couldn’t very well ignore her, and those in Westeros wanted to crown her children.)

If you want a First Blackfyre-era romance that was probably entirely Red propaganda, consider Aegor Rivers/Shiera Seastar. Unlike Daemon/Daenerys, no Blackfyre supporter ever said Aegor was interested in her, only Barristan and Yandel obliquely mentioned it (though not enough for it to be a reason for Aegor to rebel, when Yandel is desperate enough to bring up his Bracken heritage as a factor). GRRM never said anything about Aegor in Shiera’s SSM and vice versa, let alone something as blatant as “despite being in love...” Furthermore, it turns someone with a very justified grievance against House Targaryen, and later spent 45 years of life trying to unseat their tyrannical regime for his adopted family, into a jilted lover who just exists for Bl00draven to defeat. (That the aesthetics resemble a mediocre Popeye cartoon makes it more ridiculous.) But I believe Daemon/Daenerys‘ love story—like several others told around ASOIAF military conflicts— had a kernel of truth that was used to mask the more complicated political situation.

[aboveallarescuer]

No question, I just wanted to let you know that you & your metas/posts are so so SOO appreciate 🎉😊 you are such a blessing to the Dany fandom.🍾

Your metas are always so thoughtful & insightful, and the frequency with which you publish them, is astonishing & almost a tad scary. 😅

Anyway bless you 🤗💕

And not to mention how you always manages to remain polite, level-headed and respectful in discussions, whenever addressing a real person or talking about a character, yet unwavering & straight to the point. Very admirable 👏🏻 [ I envy you for that😬]

Thank you for sending these messages <333 I have a few mutuals who write much faster than I do, but I appreciate the compliment anyway lol. Especially the second one, because yesterday I was kind of sad thinking about how I probably helped to split the Dany fandom for being so vocal, particularly after that big fight last year...

I don't want to make it seem that the people I disagree with (the "neutrals", as I call them) never make interesting points or are "bad" people (I don't know them in real life and I don't think fandom is activism at all) or necessarily resent/hate Dany because none of these things would be true... So follow whoever you want and never feel like you're "betraying" your group because you don't owe anything to anyone here.

At the same time, though, I do get frustrated when I see that a lot of the "neutrals" mischaracterize Dany as arrogant and/or ruthless and/or hot-headed and/or obsessed with prophecies and/or susceptible to flattery and/or someone who doesn't think ahead and/or anything that actually defines Cersei and/or Stannis (both of whom are foils to Dany). I do get frustrated when I see them acting as if fighting for the Iron Throne is worse than fighting to retake Winterfell. That book!Dany is actually humble, modest, self-reflective, hard on herself, not susceptible to flattery and unwilling to use violence are all things that, to me, should be accepted as obvious facts just as much as Catelyn being driven by her loyalty to her family, Tyrion and Sam being intellectually driven, Davos and Brienne being good people, etc. And when I questioned them about these things, I was accused of dogmatism and intolerance at best and harassment, bullying, doxxing and stalking at worst. That crossed a line for me. And it makes no sense because they say that they're book only fans, but they're clearly still being influenced by the show's portrayal of Dany. I don't know about you, but I change my opinions when I'm presented with information I may have overlooked. That is why I always tend to bring up textual evidence (which most of them don't care to do). But what it seems to me is that the "neutrals" willfully ignore the evidence that Dany stans (and Arya stans too, because we've had similar issues over the years) provide instead of adjusting their views accordingly. Their attitude seems a lot more like mob mentality to me than what I do, imo. And considering how a lot of the people who made/agreed with the false accusations about me were also involved in this disgusting attack against the RL shippers, I can't help but look askance at them and their requests that people accept their takes (which are already the commonly accepted ones) and be nice to each other (because that seems more like telling us to keep quiet because they don't want to feel uncomfortable by having their views challenged, especially since they themselves often start fandom wank and are pretty nasty). So I avoid engaging with their content nowadays because of all these factors and I express my anger sometimes. But I also want to make it clear that it's a personal choice and anyone can follow whoever they want. I don't think it makes you "less" of a Dany fan (though that doesn't prevent you from judging her based on higher standards either because feelings don't always align with logical arguments).

Sorry for using these asks to get some things off my chest, I was feeling kind of guilty after I saw a post about how someone's appreciation for ASOIAF was ruined by their fandom experience (which is supposed to be fun). I hope people can see where I'm coming from. If what I say makes you dislike me, it's totally fine. But I won't stop defending Dany and presenting textual evidence when/if I have the time and energy to accurately characterize her because the double standards against her in this fandom are endless, go way beyond Jonsa hate and the claims that she's being set up to become a villain/Mad Queen and become really evident when you have a comprehensive knowledge of book!Dany's characterization and judge her actions based on the moral standards of her society.

[melrosing]

what are your thoughts on the whole northern independence vs targ restoration debate? you can address them separately if you want

hmm personally I think neither are gonna happen? I don't really see them as two competing outcomes though, like both could happen or one could happen but my feeling is neither

like Northern independence is the more likely of the two but I can't see it happening in a political sense à la GOT because like... Bran Stark is King. a Stark is in charge of the 7K. and he is entirely (even literally) tied up with all the ancient cultures and mythos of the North, so with him ruling the 7K what exactly would they be looking for a cessation from? I'd imagine the whole point of Bran is that he unites everyone, like he somehow encompasses all of Westeros - he represents its past and its present: what sense is there in the North being like 'sounds nice but we still want out'? nah.

for the Targ restoration, I just don't think GRRM wants to say that happy endings are about kicking off your dynasty with the right people. there have already been good Targaryen kings and queens, who've done what they can to rule Westeros well. but Fire and Blood pretty effectively demonstrates that that can all go to shit in a heartbeat. you can't rely on one family to do right by their kingdom for all eternity. you never know what the next monarch is going to be like. Dany could be the greatest queen there ever was, but if anyone further down the line is another Aerys, or not even as bad as that, just a poor monarch - then we're straight back to square one.

GRRM clearly enjoys writing about monarchs and their families but he's highlighted time and again that they are volatile as all fuck. Westeros doesn't need another dynasty from any house, which is where I imagine King Bran comes in. he does not represent a new ruling family, he represents Westeros itself, and the people within it. in GOT he was supposedly the best King because he was unfeeling and removed and had some handy powers, which is just a hopeless thesis, but I think in ASOIAF Bran is, as per the fisher king theory, going to be practically Westeros itself. his wellbeing is tied with the land and its people. I really don't know what this is going to look like yet because obviously Bran's arc is just starting to truly kick off, but in short I think he represents a necessary end to families ruling Westeros.

I'm sure there will still be a feudal system within the 7K to some extent, so it's not like everything's going to be completely different... but most of the greathouses are gonna be significantly depleted, so there probably will be a big reassessment of how things are done under Bran.

anyway basically KING BRAN.

[hilarychuff]

2020 Creator Wrap: Favorite Works

Rules: It’s time to love yourselves! Choose your 5 (ish) favourite works you created in the past year (fics, art, edits, etc.) and link them below to reflect on the amazing things you brought into the world in 2020. Tag as many writers/artists/etc. as you want (fan or original) so we can spread the love and link each other to awesome works!

tagged by @chdarling my marauders era multichap queen!! last year i only did asoiaf content for public consumption and only like two fics (although CH is inspiring me to get back on my marauders bullshit in earnest) but i DID do a decent amount of ~things~ when you factor in graphics so here are my top 5 (also yes i took the opportunity to plug just about everything a week ago but i am taking it AGAIN get over it)

1. i carry it in mine - this is my jonsa soulmate au and i love it but also feel obligated to put it first regardless bc never in my life did i think i would start and then actually stick to a multichap that i updated consistently? so far i have updated every week although that is bound to die soon, very possibly tomorrow since i think i need to rewrite my chapter and i haven’t done it yet and it’s now sunday night oops. but regardless i feel like i am having fun here adapting the book canon to the show and blending them together in a way where i have a roadmap for what happens but also get to fix some of the things i didn’t like/felt were left out but also without getting too deep into the weeds of a lot of it bc it’s written in kind of an overview style 

2. howl - this is my sansa-centric scream au that i will never shut up about for the rest of my life possibly!! i love spooky movies and i love sansa and i love coming up with movie-hopping aus (or whatever) and once i hit on the right idea/casting for this one i was like.... ok yes. this slaps. i also have ideas for scream 2 and scream 3 (and maybe even scream 4 but we’ll see) and hopefully will one day actually write those but for now this is a stand alone

3. things we lost in the flames, things we found in the ashes - wait i actually forgot that for one minute i almost full-blown fell back into my agents of shield obsession. i was first and foremost a jemma stan and not exactly a fitzsimmons shipper so i was never going to fully get back into the show but there was a period of time in the early pandemic days when @hurricane and i were talking about/rewatching agents of shield a little bit and i fell alllllll into my jemma feels and while i love mack i felt the show never satisfactorily addressed mack being like “stay away from fitz” to jemma and then later on being her friend and so i was like.... fine i will write these missing scenes myself!!!!!!!!! in which they find common ground and mack develops a grudging respect for her!!!!! mack’s feelings were valid but he didn’t have the full story and i was like with god as my witness i will GIVE IT TO HIM

4. asoiaf jonsa overboard au graphic - i think of all my au graphics this is maybe my favorite so far? not bc the graphics themselves slap that hard although i do really like parts of it but bc i have always been like “how do you make an overboard plot that is not as fucked up as the actual overboard plot” and i really like what i came up with for the characters even though yeah it’s still fucked up lmfao. hoping to one day actually write this but who can say when idk

5. i carry it in mine graphics - cheating here a lil bc i can’t pick just one of the graphics i made for my fic above but i love these three and feel they are all Different and don’t have titles but i will tentatively call them by the first lines which are the old gods let me return to you which i like for purely aesthetic purposes? it is the most abstract i think of the graphics i did and the only one where i felt the color scheme was strong enough to (gasp!) also change the text font. and then this one my sister — what of sansa? i felt like i struck gold when i found that top photo of the redhead in the snow and then i also feel like the bottom one of “jon” is so good too and it is so hard to find people to put in these without them looking too modern but i felt like i pulled it off well on this one. and then if you left me here alone which actually features the actors/shots from the show in a way that i really like and is also a moment that i thought about A Lot while writing towards it and so i was really glad to find a good way to highlight it

i am not sure who did this already and also who doesn’t want to do it but for kicks going to tag mog (above) @renaissance-goth @grrmartin @chispas-and-broken-bindings @offbeatorbit @julvett idk how much some of you have produced this year but you are all wonderful and if you posted anything i want to praise it ok love you bye

[mkstrigidae]

Okay so I'm making my way through your masterlist and I'm in love?? Like let's start off with Winter's Child- a masterpiece. You make Sansa a loving and relatable character and interweave the powers into cannon in a way that actually makes cannon make more sense (preconceived biases and such). Jon and Sansa's relationship is SO SWEET and they way they bonded was absolutely adorable (and the backstory with the houses and the powers they have make so much sense) 1/3

(2/3) Neon Rain literally the best Cyberpunk AU! I've ever read. Like what you did with the world building?? The stark class differences (haha see what I did there?), the choices in SOUND, and I could FEEL myself there! I love the family dynamics between the Starks and I'm loving the little details you're dropping with the Greyjoy's , Jon's parentage, and all of the medical procedures. Jon is dramatic af and I love it and Sansa is a bamf AS SHE SHOULD. Nothing but love for this

(3/3) A Past Worth Having has a special place in my heart. You build up this setting like a tapestry, just seeing more richness and depth the longer you look. I'm proud of Sansa for holding her composure, just FEELING in the angst that the older Starks feel at her return, and loving the relationships with Robin and the rest of the Starks + Jon Arryn. The detail that you're putting into the investigation/Oberyn is awe inspiring and I can't wait to see what you do next with the trial + Jonsa

Haha thank you so much!!! This is such a sweet ask to get! My response is under a cut, because this might get kind of long! (lots of my own meta below, bc i accidentally had a lot to say, haha)

With ‘Winter’s Child’ I’ve really enjoyed weaving in fantasy elements to the world because I like to look at stories and pick at loose threads until they unravel and asking ‘what if?’. I thought it would be a super interesting concept to take a character like Sansa, who in ASOIAF is exactly what she is supposed to be as a noblewoman of her class and conforms very well in that role, and put her in a position where she was essentially a societal outcast in a lot of ways! In WC, Sansa has a lot of similar coping mechanisms to ASOIAF Sansa, in that she sort of romanticizes society to avoid thinking about how absolutely awful it is. In ASOIAF, Sansa holds tight to the notion of knights and chivalry and courtly love to cope with the fact that she essentially has no control over her future and, as a woman, is basically property. In WC, I have her really struggling to make herself into that perfect lady and using that as a sort of shield to the fact that, without a gift, there isn’t anything she can do to improve her lot in life. Sansa has these ideas about becoming a perfect lady and hoping that being perfect in other areas will ‘make up’ for what society perceives as deficient about her, but is more jaded than ASOIAF Sansa due to her age and her earlier exposure to the ills of society. So you get a Sansa who gets along better with Arya and Jon as a result, in part because she’s had that exposure to what it’s like to be an outcast in society. I think that the best fantasy has a really strong emotional backdrop (a really great example is ‘Fruits Basket’ which starts by hooking you with this wacky, fun premise about people in a family turning into animals when hugged by a member of the opposite sex, and slowly builds into a point where you can see that the family ‘curse’ is a representation of generational and familial abuse- of bonds that should be broken, and of bonds that may kill us even as we cling to them- it’s extremely complex and rich and if you haven’t read or watched it, I can’t recommend it highly enough), and so while I really love writing about the fantasy aspects, and writing scenes where Sansa does really cool things with her ice powers, the core of the story is really about Sansa coming into her own, and learning that she was a person who was worth something even without any sort of gift. Sort of overcoming societal stigma and realizing your worth and forcing others to see it. It’s so much fun to write, but i’m stuck at the moment, because i need to reread the books, and my roommate is borrowing them right now haha!

God, APWH is like, indulging my inner world-building suspense-narrative loving writer persona. It’s literally my all time favorite trope- which is of someone growing up to find out that they’re a long-lost somebody or have family they never knew about- combined with a lot of research on trauma (which i’ve been doing for academic and other reasons for a while) and a lot of slowly growing psychological horror courtesy of Petyr Baelish (trust me, it’s going to get WAY more intense). There are so many pieces of media that I love, but I think that GRRM has so many characters and such a well fleshed out world that it’s very fun to dive into his worlds and create something there. Inherently, I love a slowly unraveling mystery and morally gray characters, and this is allowing me to indulge in both!!! World-building is my favorite, because i tend to be fairly detail oriented, and i’ve been laying bread crumbs in so many places throughout the story to hopefully build up to a decent conclusion! I know sort of how it ends, and I think people are going to absolutely lose their minds if I execute it correctly. We have a few chapters to go until we get to anything in the semblance of a trial- there’s some more emotional aspects that I think need to get addressed first, and so I’m so grateful that people are so supportive of being willing to wait for the Jonsa, because they really start spending a lot of time with each other during the trial and prior to the trial (i’m a big believer in bonding via long car rides and so there’s a lot of that!). I’m just so humbled and awed by the response to it- I never dreamed that people would enjoy the story this much- when I started it, I was writing a light-hearted family piece that wouldn’t be too long, and, uh, it kind of evolved from there. Clearly, I am not good at keeping things concise haha.

I left Neon Rain for last, because your comments on this one really made me smile! Of all of my stories, oddly enough, Neon Rain is actually the most deeply personal for me, and I’m just so flattered at your kind words! I spend a lot of my time thinking about the flaws inherent in our society, and without getting too detailed, Sansa’s experience with a family member struggling in the medical system is not unfamiliar to me. There’s a weight that comes with the realization that a system that is supposed to care for people is based on capitalistic ideals of profit maximization, and as someone who has experience working in the healthcare system- no matter how bad you think it is in the US, I can promise you it’s actually worse.

Neon Rain actually just started out as a series of mental images from listening to music that I had to get down on paper, and evolved from there. I actually really love the ‘soulmates’ and ‘class differences’ and ‘mastermind art thief’ tropes, but am incapable of writing fun stories without thinking about the reality of those tropes (see APWH for another extreme example of this haha), and so as I was writing and trying to capture this mental image, the rest of the world began unfolding around me. Jon is different because of a different upbringing here, and so is Sansa, and to see the formerly idealistic Sansa become so jaded by the time she meets her soulmate is just catnip for me. You have this interesting dynamic between them, because Jon wants nothing more than to have Sansa in his life, and give her everything she wants and needs, but where the old Sansa (who was arguably middle-class and somewhat naive, as financially secure teenagers understandably tend to be) would have swooned over that, the Sansa who meets Jon when the story begins is seeing the world and all the unfair and unequal systems in it. She can’t just live happily ever after with him right away- there’s a sense of guilt there, of sansa not feeling like she deserves nice things, and there’s also Sansa’s deep sense of compassion and kindness that won’t allow her to just live life as the well taken-care-of girlfriend of a wealthy man, because she isn’t able to just put on blinders and pretend that all the injustice in the world around her doesn’t exist, simply because it wouldn’t affect her that way anymore.

I think that the core to writing Sansa, for me, in any universe, is that she is a kind and compassionate person who is capable of feeling sympathy towards even the people who have done horrific things to her and her family- that emotional awareness and empathy is a harsh thing to have in a world like Neon Rain, and in our own world, honestly. I’m so glad that you appreciate Sansa’s BAMF-ness in the story- I think that her chapters demonstrate that she is capable of doing extraordinary things when she’s doing them for people she cares for, to be kind (The scene where Alayne helps Robin down from the eyrie is most indicative of this I think), and so in this world, I just love having Sansa be a complete badass out of necessity. Also, it’s fanfiction, and I really wanted to give Sansa a cool motorcyle, because no one else was gonna do it!!!

Also, my characters like to run away with me, and before I knew it, Rodrik Greyjoy had a huge adorable crush on Sansa in the story that I immensely enjoy writing. The Greyjoys are fun because they’re all absolutely insane, and i’m a total sucker for ‘gruff dangerous character is completely a sucker for the kind sunshine-y character’ trope.

God, this accidentally got really long??? I’m sorry- thank you so much for such a kind ask!!! I love hearing what people think of my stories, and this was so sweet :)

[hellsbellschime]

I always agree with your ASOIAF analysis but I do think you are giving GRRM a bit too much credit when it comes to sexualisation of young girls.

He defended the Dany Drogo dynamic in the books and though that scene was not as gratuitous as the show, it was still consent under extreme coercion which is messed up. He was pissed how the show filmed it and said that in the books it was more of a seduction. He also referred to Dany as a hot 13 yr old chick riding a dragon when asked about how he gets into the mind of characters while writing them .With Sansa, there is that Unkiss . I think it is Sansa rewriting her memory because of the assault but maybe Grrm thinks she is an unreliable narrator and is somehow denying her attraction towards Hound 🤢. We don't know how that dynamic is going to occur in the books and though I think GRRM might not write anything romantic between them , I would still not put it past him. He is obsessed with the whole archetype of kind girl fixing the broken man ( see Jaime x Brienne) .

Most of these young girls like Sansa and Dany are psychologically scarred ( if only GRRM sees it as a problem). I agree with you that that Dany might never address Drogo as her abuser but I don't think it as a tragedy because from GRRM's comments it seems he doesn't perceive the dynamic as gross so why to paint her refusal to address the problematic dynamic as tragedy.

Now, do you think in the books will Sansa ever address the Hound in case they meet about how he had forced himself on her ? Will she ever acknowledge how that episode had scarred her psychologically ? Will she ever address the fact that just because Arys Oakheart beat her lightly than other Kingsguard that doesn't mean he gets brownie points ? Now even if the Hound dies, but if she never acknowledges in her POV about how this guy came to her room drunk as a predator, then I am not sure how the author views these kind of scenes. Now obviously the story hasn't reached that point but what are your speculations about it ?

Last but not least, the only female protagonist in ASOIAF that calls out abuse ( marital rape ) and acknowledges how she was defiled and used as cattle is Cersei Lannister and in canon she is written as a villain and not a hero.

I really don’t take GRRM quotes very seriously because this is a series that has been ongoing for decades and I’m sure he’s said everything about everything at some point, but if you truly believe that he’s just writing this because he thinks insanely young women are hot, why did he write them to be that insanely young? Like, frankly, if they were all 15 years or older it would still be just as creepy but it would be much easier for people to hand-wave it away. It’s horrifying that people DO still hand-wave it away, but if he thinks that 12 and 13-year-old girls having sex with adult men is super, why does he write it as being so traumatizing? If you’re saying that making them that young isn’t designed to point out how fucked up it is then WHAT IS THE POINT OF IT THEN? 

Maybe I’m just wildly delusional but I don’t understand why exactly a writer would have to explicitly say within the text “adult men having sex with 12-year-olds is bad” when he ALREADY portrays it as extremely traumatic. He doesn’t think Dany’s relationship with Drogo is problematic, but he wrote her considering suicide because it was so awful? I just don’t understand this interpretation because I feel like WHAT ELSE needs to be done in the narrative to explain that this is horrible and everyone should be repulsed and horrified by it? If this is supposed to be some grand child molester fantasy then why is it so gross and why does it only lead to terrible things? I mean, if GRRM thought that this was all cool then why is it only TERRIBLE MALE CHARACTERS who do this? Why wasn’t Brandon married to and boning Cat when she was 12? Why didn’t Ned marry off Sansa to Joffrey immediately? If GRRM is pro-fictional child rape then why is there not one thing in the story to actually back up that it’s not a terrible thing done only by terrible people? I really just do not get this perspective at all.

[herelivesahobbit]

The reason people call the Riverrun scene OOC aid because it is not in the books. It was made up by D&D, same as they made up whatever else. Cersei is not mentioned in Jaime’s Riverrun speech, and in fact when she’s next mentioned it’s when Jaime is ignoring her pleas for help and leaving her to the mercy of the faith. They are hugely different scenes in books vs show, but if you haven’t read ASOIAF feel free to admit it rather than berate people who have.

LOL. They are hugely different scenes in the show and the book. So? In any case when I judge adaptations I judge them as stand alone entities not as "adaptations of my favorite books". It's fine if you don't and your overt attachment to the books prevents you from judging the show fairly. That's your problem tho. Despite the many changes I like the first 4 seasons of GoT because its objectively good television.

I stand by the fact that in essence that Riverrun scene in the show is in-keeping with book Jaime's character, because Jaime even in the books still cares about and loves Cersei. I really hate when good guy Jaime theorists want to chart a map of linear progress for Jaime starting from "kid killer" to "saving the world" or whatever. Like let me remind you he hasn't reflected with any true remorse on killing Bran. He burnt Cersei's letter because he's angry, upset, betrayed, and humiliated. That's what his POV makes clear, along with the fact that he does clearly still love her. It's a twisted, toxic, relationship and its not as simple as oh now his honor replaces his love for Cersei as his primary motivation. What both show and book Jaime have in common is that they love Cersei, and no matter how much they want to stop caring about her, they can't.

I can also acknowledge at the same time that overall show Jaime and Cersei are different characters than their book counterparts. Show Jaime is certainly more overtly Cersei-centric. and sometimes it works (the ending - I for one am extremely happy Jaime didn't strangle Cersei, I don't think we needed a THIRD woman dying via intimate partner violence but ymmv depending on how much you want to watch women being strangled on screen oops i mean how important the prophecy is to you) sometimes it doesn't (the entirety of season 5).

And here's some other facts to blow your mind, anon:

I don't give a fuck if you think I read the books or not. I dont worship these books and I don't think GRRM is perfection and as much as I hate the later seasons of the show, the books have their own set of problems and some of those were addressed and improved on the tv show. Feel free to tell on me to Linda and Elio or the reddit bros or whomever else you have in your book purity corner lol, i read these books for personal enjoyment, not to feel morally superior while sending hateful anon messages on the internet lol.

I will block you if you continue to engage me on this topic in bad faith. I enjoy a good discussion but I really don't give enough of a shit to get into it with bad faith arguers. I like what I like. If you don't agree with my opinions feel free to block me and never speak to me again. You had that option in the first place and I wish you'd taken it.