#tamoko

[tethys-the-aquatic-sea-godness]

Observations on Sarevok and Tamoko

Since BG 3 saw it fit to erase the character described in game as Sarevok's "one true love", I thought I'd make a recap of whatever insights BG 1 gave us about their relationship. So here's an assortments of things I noticed in my recent playthrough, along with my rambling (which you're welcome to skip, obviously).

(It's long rambling, grab a seat and a drink if you're interested)

The first time most of us get any insight into the relationship between Sarevok and Tamoko is when Tamoko comes to talk with Gorion’s ward.

She’s very clear about her feelings for Sarevok (genuine love) and his plan (genuine reject)

A few highlights for me:

"I charge you to defeat Sarevok, the man behind all your woes. You must destroy his plans and stop his scheme in its tracks. You must strip him of the belief that he can succeed in this path he follows. You must do this for me, and you must also leave him his life. I will… I will help him to live his life as a man, not as the god he thinks he can be.”

"Possibly he’s right, but I cannot lose him to this."

"Sarevok is… I share Sarevok’s company, and would do so until I die, given the choice. That is all you need to know. I would save the man within the beast he wishes to be."

"Sarevok can be redeemed"

Her affection is plain, despite the rift in their relationship due to their disagreement. However, there's nothing on this from Sarevok himself (logical given the narrative of BG 1, he's trying to kill Gorion's ward, not chat about his love life). But, through various clues, you get an idea of his feelings.

Let's start with Cythandria, another member of the Iron Throne, and the insight this character gives into Sarevok and Tamoko's relationship.

The only time Cythandria is mentioned by another character is when Tamoko directs you to her.

"Atop the Iron Throne base is a woman whose... whose influence is a poison in Sarevok's soul" → According to Tamoko, Cythandria has a sway on Sarevok. She also add that "she [Cythrandria] holds much power in this matter". The question here would be why this Cythandria has any influence on Sarevok. He is focused mainly in power, and from a letter found on Slythe, the assassin working for Sarevok, he has no interest in brothels. If Cythandria has influence on Sarevok, it seems unlikely it would be through sex, so there's more to their connection.

Two more elements catch my attention:

"She seeks Sarevok's favor as well" → Whatever wedge has grown between Tamoko and Sarevok, Cythandria hasn’t managed to get in the gap. She’s 'trying', likely getting success from telling Sarevok what he wants to hear, and getting him to listen through the influence she has on him, but she hasn’t replaced Tamoko.

“I… I must go. He cannot know I have helped you” → Why she doesn’t want be seen with Gorion’s ward is obvious, they’re Sarevok’s enemy, but it’s also useful to gauge the state trust of Tamoko and Sarevok’s relationship. She knows enough of his plan that she can tell every single element Gorion’s ward need to check to prove Sarevok’s guilt to the duke: Eltan’s poisoning, the assassins in the Undercellar, Cythandria (though that last one might be partially prompted by jealousy). She’s also fully aware of his divine parentage, and his plans to ascend to godhood, as well as the method. It’s safe to say that at this point of the story, Tamoko is part of Sarevok’s inner circle and knows his whole plan from start to finish. You might even have identified her as the cleric who helped Sarevok slay Gorion during the prologue (dispel magic my hated beloved). More importantly, she’s part of that inner circle despite disagreeing with Sarevok regarding his choice for godhood. His actions until now doesn't lead to believe he'd take constructive criticism well, especially when he's so close to success, but he takes it from Tamoko, even though he doesn’t listen.

My conclusion: Sarevok’s plan to ascend to godhood has created a rift between him and his lover, Tamoko. Cythandria, someone with influence over Sarevok, is using that rift to get greater sway over him. Despite their conflict, Tamoko is still part of Sarevok’s inner circle, and privy to his plans.

The other time we get further insight into these relationships, is when we meet Cythandria.

Depending on dialogue, you may get different answers from her. This is the most informative.

"I am Cythandria, consort to Sarevok" → Well, that's a long way from "seeking his favor". Or not. Just further down the dialogue, Cythandria contradicts herself "He will be pleased to know I have killed you... perhaps enough that I might become his favored one again". It seems someone put the cart before the horse. It's paradoxical that she'd be his "consort", but not his "favored one". It also aligns with what Tamoko said before, Cythandria's trying to get back in Sarevok's good graces, but she's not there yet.

"I have been with him since before he knew of his true heritage" → That part's very interesting because it explains why and how she could have any influence over Sarevok at all. From Sarevok's diary, you know he's discovered his divine heritage around three years before the events of the game (he mentions starting his research in 1365 and game events occur in 1368), meaning he's known Cythandria for at least four years. From there, it's left up to the player to decide exactly how long they've been acquainted (from childhood or adolescence to less than a decade), and what "I have been with him" means. It's meant to indicate an intimate relationship, though when and how that relationship started during their acquaintance is up to you. She also wants to highlight her loyalty, showing that, unlike many, she stood with Sarevok before his divine heritage granted him more importance. That too would be a part of Cythandria's influence over Sarevok. She's a former lover, who was on his side before she knew of his parentage. More importantly, it shows Cythandria isn't Sarevok's 'new girl', she's a previous partner, and Tamoko is the 'new girl' here, as she does not mention having known Sarevok for a long time.

My conclusion: Sarevok knew Cythandria first, at least four years prior to the game's events. At some point, they started an intimate relationship that ended later on. Sarevok's relationship with Tamoko started after that. Cythandria has sway over Sarevok due to their past relationship and her loyalty prior to knowing of his heritage. Despite this, Cythandria's still trying (and seemingly not succeeding) to be Sarevok's favorite again, but she introduces herself as his consort anyway.

Further conversation with Cythandria gives more insight into her opinion on Tamoko, and Tamoko's relationship with Sarevok. A rather negative opinion.

Both of the following snippets are collected from different conversation paths.

This answer occurs if you don't mention you have inside information and try to convince Cythandria to surrender before the fight. As you can see, she's not impressed.

Here's a few highlights:

"I would never betray my Lord. Perhaps you should try your wiles on Tamoko, I'm sure she'd be more receptive to your overtures." → While she utterly rejects the idea of betraying Sarevok, she mentions Tamoko as someone who would be open to it. It's interesting on two points. First, it shows Cythandria doesn't understand Tamoko. To get this dialogue from Cythandria, you have to pick the answer that describes Sarevok as "evil to the core" and thus incapable of having a "favored one", which is pretty much the opposite of Tamoko's argument when you speak with her. She wants Sarevok's plan to fail, but her help depends on the promise that Gorion's ward will spare his life. Tamoko wouldn't be moved by this answer any more than Cythandria is, though it'd be for different reasons. Cythandria isn't concerned by his 'evilness', she's entirely behind his whole plan, while Tamoko believes this plan is harmful for Sarevok, that he's entirely under the influence of his divine blood. It lends credence to Tamoko's argument, when she describes Cythandria as someone who "is content if he [Sarevok] self-destructs, so long as she profits in the deed". Cythandria's loyal, but but she displays more concern for her place by Sarevok's side than for his survival. The second thing this dialogue shows is that Cythandria is aware of Tamoko's opinion on Sarevok's plan. Considering how they dislike each other, it's unlikely they chat around a drink, which leaves three options I'll give in order of how probable I think they are. One; Cythandria witnessed one or several exhanges between Sarevok and Tamoko where the subject came up. Two; Sarevok complained about his relationship problems to Cythandria. Three; you get Sarevok's diary from Cythandria, and while the canon contents don't mention anything beside his plan save for a nightmare, from the size of the diary, you can assume there's more in it, maybe his relationship problems. The second's less likely because Cythandria's still trying to get back in Sarevok's favor, he wouldn't be chatting about this with her. As for the diary found in her possession, there could be something mentionned in there, but there's no garantee at all, since it seems focused on his plan. There's also no way to know how long Cythandria had the diary and if she had any time to read it.

"I could never understand what Sarevok saw in her." → Cythandria doesn't understand the use for Tamoko, or see any qualities in her she'd value. Jealousy plays a role there too, Tamoko is her ex' new partner, but Cythandria could've dimissed her as a simple tool Sarevok would discard later. Instead, she considers it odd that Sarevok would keep Tamoko by his side at all. Cythandria has known Sarevok for several years, before he knew of his heritage, she has some influence over him, but she doesn't see why he'd keep Tamoko around. She disagrees with Sarevok openly enough that other members of the inner circle are aware of it, and even someone who's known Sarevok for a while doesn't understand where she'd fit in his plan. It's safe to assume Tamoko's there because Sarevok wants her to be, not because he has any specific use for her.

My conlusion: Cythandria considers herself highly loyal and Tamoko's commitment fickle. Despite having known Sarevok for years, she doesn't understand why he'd keep Tamoko around, since he doesn't seem to have a clear use for her, save for her company.

Now on to the second conversation path. In this one, Gorion's ward reveal they were tipped by someone to find Cythandria at the Iron Throne. However, Tamoko's name is kept out of it. Cythandria's reaction is as follow:

This answer says more or less the exact same thing as the previous answer, but it shows Cythandria's opinions rather than having her say them out loud.

"Who told you to come here? Who betrayed my lord?" → The same loyalty Cythandria talked about in the previous answer, but shown instead of told.

"It was Tamoko, wasn't it?" → Same here, with her belief in Tamoko's fickleness.

"I always knew her to be a traitorous whore!" → That one's interesting for the sheer volume of hate in it. It's another clue Cythandria didn't replace Tamoko. This kind of vitriol doesn't read like something coming from a new lover, but an ex one.

My conclusion: This different dialogue gives similar information (Cythandria's loyalty, her distrust of Tamoko), but it show them through dialogue rather than have Cythandria do the exposition. It also shows the deep resentment Cythandria's nurturing for Tamoko.

The next time you get an indication on the state of Sarevok and Tamoko's relationship, is during the last conversation with Tamoko in the Undercity, in front of the temple of Bhaal.

Their relationship has deteriorated since you last spoke to her. Understandable, as Sarevok discovered she betrayed him by offering significant information to sabotage his plans. Despite this, you can see Tamoko gets a different treatment, even as a traitor.

"He has forsaken me, left me to die in your path. I must fight to regain his trust, his... attention." → To better understand why Sarevok's treatment of Tamoko is different here, you have to compare it to how he treated another 'traitor'. Winski Perorate was a cleric of Bhaal, and Sarevok's mentor who "tutored him in the blackest of rituals". He was the one who helped him develop and nurture his abilities. He's one of his closest ally, someone who, unlike Tamoko, never tried to divert Sarevok from his course, as he was the one to set him on said course. Yet, during the fight at the Ducal Palace, Winski teleports Sarevok to safety, rather than follow his order to kill the Dukes. Sarevok strikes him down for his disobedience. Tamoko, revealed to be a traitor who actively worked to sabotage Sarevok's plans is found in a very different situation. She's full health, so he likely never attacked her (she could heal or down a potion, but nothing in her dialogue suggest he attacked her, only that he abandonned her), she has the option of a 'second chance' (her chances of winning in 1vs6 are dubious at best), but more importantly, she has the possibility to simply leave. She's entirely alone outside the temple of Bhaal, the only hostiles around being undead, not the worst threat when you're a cleric. She's free from the influence of a geas, and without any form of surpervision. Tamoko feels obligated to face you because she's heartbroken and desperate, but when you look at her situation, there's nothing to keep her from simply leaving, which you can convince her to do. Sarevok cuts down a man who saved him because he disobeyed his orders, but Tamoko, who sabotaged all his plans, is left unharmed, able to earn back his 'trust and attention' through what's akin to suicide, or leave, without any consequences. They were both part of his inner circle, but they're getting very different treatments.

→ The taint affects Bhaalspawns, pushing them to follow their darker side. During ToB, Sarevok also confirms that during that time, his "will was not his own". With that in mind, leaving Tamoko the way he does can be read as an attempt (conscious or unconscious) to save her, likely from himself. His reaction when Perorate disobeyed was to strike him down, it's unlikely he didn't feel the same urge when he learned of Tamoko's betrayal. However, in her case, he fought against the instinct and got it under some control.

My conclusion: Sarevok discovered Tamoko's betrayal, but rather than kill her, he let her live, supposedly to stand in Gorion's ward way. However, he did nothing to ensure that Tamoko did that, and she's able to leave completely unarmed. If she's killed, however, it's by Gorion's ward hand, not Sarevok's. Unlike anyone else standing in Sarevok's way, she's given a chance to leave, and he doesn't physically harm her.

Obviously, Sarevok and Tamoko's relationship meets a tragic end, whether or not she survives. If Gorion's ward refuses to attack and Tamoko is convinced to back down, the dialogue follows as below.

Here, Tamoko reaches her limit and lets Sarevok go. What I found interesting here ( and frankly had me sadly amused when I replayed it) was the display of naivety.

"You... you are not so alike after all. he would not have hesitated for an instant. Perhaps... perhaps it is more than his blood that makes him the way he is." → Tamoko staunchly defended Sarevok with the conviction that he only went to such lengths because of the taint, and that his choices would be different without it. This does not take into account any of Sarevok's background, which brings forth the question of how much of Sarevok's life did Tamoko know? Cythandria boasted knowing Sarevok before he was aware of his origin, but Tamoko made no such claims. That leads to believe she didn't know him before, which would make their relationship three years old or less. It's not much to share personnal details, especially with Sarevok's plans in motion. Another part that shows Tamoko didn't know Sarevok's past is this line: "perhaps it is more than his blood that makes him the way he is". 'Perhaps'? As a player, you can tell there's a lot more than his blood making him the way he is, through one entry in his journal and one conversation with Winski Perorate.

This is the journal entry that showcases a glimpse of Sarevok's childhood with Rieltar (which I will make a whole different post about, it's only here for context in this post). On a sidenote, despite his brutal ways, Sarevok never raises a hand on Tamoko, even when she betrays him. It's a really meaningful touch to add to a character who was forced to watch his mother being murdered by her husband.

It's never specified when Perorate became Sarevok's mentor, or for how long they've known each other, but Sarevok isn't that much older than Gorion's ward. At the latest, Perorate must've have found him when he was a young adult

In ToB you get a bit more of what Sarevok's life was prior to the events of BG 1 through his bio.

Compare this with a few background information on Gorion's ward.

That's the opening prologue, giving you some context.

Now this is one of three possible answers, but I choose to highlight it because it's the one where the difference is the most striking. Another answer describes this childhood as boring and the last doesn't comment. No matter what you pick, there's nothing dramatic to Gorion's ward's backstory before the events of the game. It's SoD exclusive though, so you can ignore it. Playing BG 1's prologue is enough to see how different their lives were.

"You are not so alike after all" (yeah, no shit) → Sarevok and Gorion's ward have led very differen lives, which shaped them into very different people. These changes affect how they respond to the taint. The fact that Tamoko never took this into account can showcase naivety, or a lack of knowledge of Sarevok's past, maybe a bit of both. Talking about that time your father murdered your mother can kill the mood on a date.

"But that only works for a 'good' playthrough'!" → No, actually, it works for the evil path as well, because whatever you choose, you either reject the taint's influence or harness it. Sarevok is unable to do either, but is convinced he's mastered the latter.

Post BG 1, Tamoko's fate is unknown when she leaves alive, but by the time ToB comes around, she's dead, fridged offscreen (thanks writers). However, you do get one last snippet of her and her relationship with Sarevok during his epilogue.

Here's the in game description I mentionned at the start. This is what Sarevok's epilogue ends on, the last thing the writers decided to mention. He goes on the other side of Toril, carrying Tamoko's remains (who may have died for his poor decisions, depending on how you played) back to her homeland, and staying there, as far as records know. They have people imagining dark stories of Sarevok going on a crusade in the Abyss or taking his own life, but the truth has him focusing on the one person he left aside before. It's a really bittersweet ending they choose for him. It showed him embracing his humanity over power in the end, the way Tamoko hoped he would.

Then BG 3. This epilogue was supposed to be the conclusion of Sarevok's story. Of course, writing more would be great if you follow up on what was already established. Not if you erase one character and ruin another, making it so what the wider audience knows about him is your shitty ooc fanfic version of him where his characterization gets stomped over. 'But you don't have the epilogue if you didn't revive Sarevok-', no, you don't, meaning he's still dead in the Abyss, not sitting somewhere under Baldur's Gate. 'But if he was revived by Bhaal-' dialogue clearly states he was raised by the intervention of their stand-in bhaalspawn. Even if this theory held any weight, being revived by Bhaal would mean Sarevok doesn't have any free will, and that's clearly not what dialogues imply.

BG 3 ignored the epilogue, erased Tamoko in favor of two OCs, that nobody who played the previous games give a damn about. You can't care about them when they're propped up on the back of characters you already care about (aside from the fact their backstory is the dumbest fanon nonsense I've seen in BG 3, to the point where it doesn't even look like part of the game). You can even start resenting them, when a beloved character is used as stepping stool to prop them up.

[afrotumble]

[ratscrap]

tamokooooooooo (and sarevok)

[incorrect-bhaalspawn-quotes]

Sarevok, whispering: Do you wanna know how I really injured my wrist?

Tamoko: Yeah?

Sarevok: I was hula hooping. I attend a class for fitness and fun.

Tamoko: Oh my gods.

Sarevok: I’ve mastered all the moves. The pizza toss, the tornado, the scorpion…the oopsie-doodle.

Tamoko: Why are you telling me this?

Sarevok: Because no one is ever gonna believe you.

Tamoko: You sick son of a bitch.

[bodymodificationnation]

Moko kauae by lance_ngata

[notnocriminal]

Since I didn’t know what to draw for new years, I just decided to post a some sketches I did over the year when I was bored,

Srry if you were expecting more but I don’t have the energy to think of anything better, happy new year :P

[mucking-faori]

Star wars fans don't appropriate māori and pasifika culture challenge (impossible)

[lamortwrites]

SAREVOK TAMOKO DURGE AND GORT PARALLELS!!!!!!!!!! durge and xvim!!!! I can’t

OKAY I HAVE TO PREFACE THIS BY SAYING. I am on team cleric of Xvim Tamoko I have not been active in any bg1 spaces probably since I was a teenager I do not know what the fandom consensus of her deity was but I DO remember that it was never actually confirmed in game (do I think the plan was for her to become Sarevok's Chosen? Maybe. Maybe the original plan after Sarevok's apotheosis was to help Tamoko push someone else off of the throne she wanted. You know, much like a popular durgetash theory ;))

ANYWAY the point is. Tamoko was a cleric of Iyachtu Xvim to me. So imagine being me running around as an amnesiac Bhaalspawn and finding out I USED TO HAVE FEELINGS FOR A BANITE? Already. AlREADY the wheels are turning. Already I am going HMM. THIS FEELS FAMILIAR.

And like...obv this is all up to interpretation and kinda depends on your choices in your own playthroughs but. Gort being so happy for you if you shake off Bhaal's influence? Vs him jumping straight to pragmatism and well guess you have to die for me if you won't be my ally? And then later w the brain, the theory that he knew the stones weren't working and chose to try and take the hit for you even though you don't remember him or any of what you had, maybe even showed up w a new lover? Compared to Tamoko being so willing to die for Sarevok just bc he told her to, even though he'd strayed so far from the man she loved? Did Gort know durge planned to betray him in the end? Would he have been willing to die for them?

And YEAH the durge/Xvim parallels are...SO tasty. Durge being born before Bhaal was even resurrected? Were they supposed to be his ticket back to godhood like how Bane did it? The fact that durge is technically a cambion too... Like, did pre tadpole durge chafe against their leash? WERE they planning on patricide? Was that the real reason for the lobotomy?

There's just. Idk there's something really poetic to me about Sarevok changing so much that he is unmoved by Tamoko's death vs durge having the potential to change so much that they are unmoved by Gortash's...

Also. I would save the man within the beast he wishes to be. You know. Which couple am I talking about here.

[queer-disability-aotearoa]

an interesting look into kiwi prison culture and the gang tattoo situation. way better than the fucking garbage vice put out about tamoko

[bhaalswn-arch]

Also, I finished the baldur's gate novelization yesterday and I feel so sad for Tamoko and such, as she wanted her lover, Saverok, not to ascend, not to be the Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate. So she betrayed him by telling Abdel, therefore giving Abdel evidence as Abdel and Jaheira were being framed by Saverok, as the Flaming Fists, etc, assumed Abdel and Jaheira were enemies from Amn. They got evidence to prove the others wrong. But in the end, Tamoko was so torn up with guilt as she betrayed the man she loved. I'm just--

[rajdasposts]

True worship can end the cycle of birth and death.

Take refuge in Saint Rampal Ji Maharaj to attain salvation, eternal peace and happiness.

[tethys-the-aquatic-sea-godness]

Tamoko, about Sarevok: I can fix him.

Rieltar: Please don't, it took a lot of work to fuck him up this bad.

[afrotumble]

[headraline]

It's been over a year and a half, and while I dearly love BG3 for introducing my favourite saga to the public at large, I still hate what they did to Sarevok.

Granted in BG1 he looked to be every bit the one-dimensional villain (then of course you have the opportunity to learn what his formative years were like and holy fuck does not even begin to cover it,) but once you get to BG2 TOB you have an actual, tangible chance at redeeming him -not even a baby little redemption, his alignment can straight up change from Chaotic Evil to CHAOTIC GOOD.

And even if BG3 canon didn't heavily imply that the change was the way things were left off (Minsc summarily reprimands Sarevok for backsliding if he's in the party for the Murder Tribunal,) endgame Sarevok in TOB was a man free from cultish thought, who pursued his own wants and purposes.

(oh and another thing: why are Minsc and Jaheira, who leave him at a relatively good place, not saddened and horrified by Sarevok's return to evil, and instead make flippant jokes about kicking his ass? Two of the most empathetic characters of the game being so casually cruel in the face of finding someone who they thought had become a friend in that position is laughable.)

BG3 ignores all of his character development in TOB to make a mindless Bhaalist henchman out of him -him, who tried to take the Throne of Blood for himself and basically called Bhaal a bitch in his pre-battle dialogue in BG1.

And that's not even touching on the circumstances of Orin's birth.

It's such a strong case of he would not fucking do that that it makes me wonder if the person responsible for it was a fanfiction writer off of the "dead dove" tag on AO3.

Like, was he evil and capable of terrible things? Yes.

BUT. There is an important factor that I've seen someone else point out, I can't for the life of me remember their blog's name but I'm gonna borrow the phrasing because it's true: his only positive experiences in life have been with women.

He drank his 'respect women' juice his whole life, while he almost exclusively had negative experiences with men, especially when he was young and vulnerable.

Here's a couple of things, just as an example:

-if we assume that the child!Sarevok apparition in the TOB trials was the accurate age he was when the Temple he was in was raided by Harpers, he was 5-7 years old. So he was old enough to understand what was going on when he watched Gorion choose Charname over him as the one child that was possible to save.

(Side note, when in BG1 he kills Gorion, he is much calmer and more collected than I would have been, in his place, and his "I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man" sounds almost genuinely apologetic.)

-Rieltar Anchev, the adptive father who picked him up and raised him in the Iron Throne after a brief stint of Sarevok living in the streets, had his adoptive mother killed and forced Sarevok to watch as they strangled her with a garrote. Sarevok was still a child during this.

(because of Rieltar, he had no idea of what was happening to him when the old-game equivalent of the Dark Urge started manifesting in horrible dreams and visions, so he had to deal with that alone -he sought out a Bhaalist priest, but they weren't very useful so he lost his patience with them and killed them.)

-his relationship with Tamoko was quite literally the only good thing he had happen in his life, and she even tries to get him to give up the Throne of Blood. But he couldn't -all the shitty stuff that happened in his life would have been "in vain" if he gave up, and he was in too deep to even think about the sunk cost fallacy, man needs ALL the therapy- and he died for it.

Granted, there's potential for "the abused becomes the abuser", but not as much if you consider that BG3 canon decided that Sarevok received a part of Imoen's soul -which makes it a lot easier to redeem him and change his alignment in TOB and then they exchange a banter in which several things get made quite blatant: 1. one of the ways Irenicus tortured Imoen was SA, 2. after receiving the piece of her soul, Sarevok had visions and impressions of her torture as if experiencing it himself. If at this point Sarevok has been redeemed, he commends Imoen for the strength it takes to go through that and still come out the other way not wanting to hurt others:

Those are the words of a man who would not fucking do that.

Which is why the only thing that makes it likely for him to have backslid THAT badly is that, for one, he was left completely to his own devices after the events of TOB -a man just now relearning how to be alive, nevermind how to be free and how to exist outside of the villain/conqueror mentality- with no direction, no guidance and no purrpose...

And, two, that made him easy prey for Bhaalist cultists, possibly backed by the newly reborn Lord of Murder himself, who had to have assaulted/violated Sarevok's mind so hard that it was akin to brainwashing to put him at that low a point.

If Orin's birth has to have happened the way it did because it's sadly canon, it was a crime with one perpetrator and two victims, because a Sarevok in his right mind would have never consented to it.

tl;dr: Larian I love you but you completely assassinated Sarevok's character and I will not forgive that. Probably not ever.

[fuckyeahbaldursgate]

Bhaal's errant progeny and BG3.

Hey all, just some witterings from me that I really wanted to post about a particular encounter because it just super irked me. This post contains spoilers for Act 3 and specifically the serial murders quest.

My overall view is that most of the returning cast from the original BGs have been treated fairly respectfully and consistent with their character arcs in BG1/2 however, there is one unfortunately that I just don't like and that's Sarevok. Yep he's back for a brief encounter where he's revealed to Orin's granddaddy and he's going to smack your butt for funsies. Now while I enjoyed the fight itself the overall conversation / plot points were kind of disappointing for the following reasons:

1.) No Kevin Michael Richardson. Given the guy recently starred in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear and is a fairly prolific voice actor I have no idea why they didn't ask him to do this role and given his distinctive voice, it's really noticeable. I appreciate with the other returning characters haven't got their original VAs either but I think Jaheria and Minsc's VAs do a good impression of originals and in some ways can hide behind the accents of the characters.

2.) Ignores the impact of Imoen's soul. It's referenced in the conversation that the fairest Bhaalspawn resurrected him so that implies that BG3 assumes it was Imoen who gave a bit of their soul to revive him in Throne of Bhaal. Now there were a few conversations that touched upon the fact that Sarevok was actually mildly influenced by this (he has cravings for sweet things and other strange things etc.). I'm not saying that this would have completely turned him overnight into a good guy but his re-embracing of Bhaal seems contrary to this.

3.) Inconsistent with conversations with Sarevok in BG1/Throne of Bhaal. In my view, the game is fairly clear that Sarevok's goal was never to serve the Lord of Murder but to become him. Furthermore, in TOB he actually seems pretty accepting of the fact that he failed to achieve that and is almost regretful in places, particularly in relation to Tamoko's fate. Why has he gone back to serve the Lord of Murder no less in BG3 when he wasn't really a true believer in the first place.

4.) Inconsistent with Sarevok's epilogue at the end of Throne of Bhaal. Sarevok's arc in TOB revolved around the nature versus nurture argument. One of the big challenges the Bhaalspawn faces is the revelation that Gorion had the opportunity to take either you or Sarevok and it was pure luck that you were chosen instead of him. The question for the Bhaalspawn is: would you have turned out exactly the same as Sarevok had you not lived in the relative safety of Candlekeep? Sarevok is given an opportunity to do things differently at the end of TOB. His epilogue notes that he never settled in one place for too long, routing an army of orcs before he conquered an entire city by himself only to then mysteriously vanish. The epilogue concludes that he actually returned to Kara-Tur to bury Tamoko and never returned, which ultimately suggests that Sarevok is a changed man at the end of TOB.

So yeah it seemed really lazy to me that he's just back as another mook of Bhaal for you to mow down. Now I've been playing a fairly neutral drow wizard who turned down the offer of becoming an assassin of Bhaal so maybe this comes across better if you have more time to talk to him but yeah was left feeling a bit sad by how he ended up in BG3.

[thirddoctor]

Anyway, BG3!Sarevok thoughts.

The first time I played the game I found him to be one of the more repulsive villains (and I say this as someone who can find sympathy in my heart even for Cazador). The journal where we learn about all the incest stuff is super icky. I didn't really give him much thought after I killed him, but I had nothing but loathing for him.

Cut to me playing the first two games and him becoming one of my faves. 😔

I'm really glad I played BG3 first, because if I'd gone from Throne of Bhaal to this without knowing how he'd be portrayed it would've sucked so bad.

One of the defenses I've seen of this version of him is that it's just following Forgotten Realms material outside the games that had him fall back into evil, but 1. I'm not trying to pick a bone specifically with Larian so it doesn't matter to me whether it was their choice or someone else's, I still don't like it. 2. In other circumstances, BG3 does try to some degree to preserve player choices from the previous games even when there's an established "canon" version--notice that Minsc and Jaheira never refer to Gorion's Ward by name or gender, even though Abdel Adrian is the canon protagonist (I really appreciated this, because I hate "canon" versions of game characters *coughRevancough*). 3. You can just not put Sarevok in the game. He doesn't have to be there. You can still have Orin be his daughter and/or granddaughter, but--bearing in mind my previous point--just keep details about him vague. The problem with including him is non-fans don't care (I sure didn't the first time I played) and fans will be alienated if they don't like his portrayal.

I've seen arguments that it makes sense for him to have ended up the way we see him in BG3, but I have two issues with that:

1. I don't think he actually feels especially in character. Obviously it's been a long time since Throne of Bhaal and people can change, but his portrayal here doesn't fit well with the person we saw in the previous games. He wasn't slavishly devoted to Bhaal--he wanted power for himself. His plan in BG1 was to take Bhaal's place. (He didn't grow up in the murder cult like Orin or Durge--he was meant to be sacrificed to Bhaal as a child, and was left to fend for himself after Harpers intervened; I think a lot of things about his character make sense in light of the fact he's been abandoned and powerless multiple times, and so seeks strength, power, and intimidation over others. A really nice little bookend to his arc is the fact that after Throne of Bhaal, he goes back to find Tamoko--someone who cared for him that he abandoned--and gives her a proper burial in her homeland.) I just struggle to see him being content to devote himself to Bhaal when he was ambitious and determined enough that a part of him was able to survive even after he died (and was rejected by Bhaal) and thus was able to be revived in ToB. That's not a guy who's just gonna sit around in a moldy basement doing Bhaal's bidding.

Over and above all that, he can potentially grows as a person in ToB and start seeing some of the errors of his ways as he listens to his half-sibling's perspective. BG3 does address this, but only to brush it aside--"Oh, yeah, he had a chance to become a better person and he rejected it."

Even if you accept that explanation and think his portrayal in BG3 makes perfect sense, that still brings me to my other issue.

2. It's just boring. This may be a little more subjective, especially since I'm a huge redemption arc fan, but look at it this way: You had an evil guy who was the big bad of the first game, who had a plot to take over Baldur's Gate and ascend to godhood. He then comes back as a companion who can potentially be redeemed, and who you can discuss your past with as you make important choices about your future. That's an interesting progression that expands on his portrayal in the first game. Then he's sitting around in a murder basement being generically evil again. He's not even one of the main bosses. How does that offer anything new with his character?

The fact that this happens with both Sarevok and Viconia, who can have some of the most interesting development in the previous games, makes it especially frustrating. Like, imagine playing BG4, and regardless of what choices you'd made in BG3, Shadowheart shows up as a Dark Justiciar who you have to kill. Or Astarion is an evil vampire lord. Yes, you could maybe do interesting stories featuring those outcomes, it wouldn't necessarily be out of character and they could make for cool villains, but it would still feel really reductive for players who watched them grow and change and make better choices.

I'm not saying Sarevok was nearly as fleshed out as either of them, or that his arc was that in-depth in comparison, but it was still one of my favourite parts of the first two games and it sucks to lose it and get something much blander in return.

Anyway. I never expected to care about Sarevok but here I am.