#take back systempunk

[sovereignsystem]

PUNKS AGAINST ENDOS!

ANTI ENDO. (PRO) ENDOS DNI!!!

[hazelnut-thefoodaddict]

Endos, can you normalize NOT taking over our tags? Thanks.

Nobody would care what you do, if you just stayed away from real systems, and didn't cause problems. Things like this;

"Oh, that was my evil alter!"

"Syspunk is by endos for endos!"

Are problematic. Just shut up, please leave us alone. Syspunk is NOT made by you, and is NOT for you.

"You're invading our tags!" YOU DON'T HAVE THE DISORDER. YOU'RE INVADING OUR SPACE. YOU'RE FAKECLAIMING US, HARMING THE COMMUNITY AND GIVING IT A BAD REPUTATION, AND YET YOU WHINE ABOUT US "TAKING YOUR TAGS".

[the-alarm-system]

Crying so hard dude imagine basing a punk identity around the white ass psych community’s dsm5, completely ignoring all spiritual and cultural forms of plurality because you want to bow to the feet of an oppressive, racist system

(yes this is about anti endos and systempunk)

I actually feel like we should take it back to talk about rejecting the psych systems harms and having plural liberation despite the culture around fakeclaiming that’s especially used to harm open (maybe mostly disordered) systems who talk about the oppression they face

psychiatrist love to have being open as a system as a sign of faking because they don’t want us to fucking talk about how we’re treated by them, if we mention it we’re suddenly a faking liar whose words are invalid

edit: ou ohhh,,,, guys check this outt

[anomalymon]

My take on the systempunk thing is it really feels like this

Fakeclaimers: You need medical proof to prove your existence to me! Endogenics: The field of psychology is ableist towards systems which means a lot of it is under-researched, and an experience shouldn't require medical proof to be valid. Fakeclaimers: Psychology is everything, this is an institution we support. Endogenics: *Start to get a lot more medical backing and studies coming out during the 20s* Fakeclaimers: Actually the field of psychology is ableist towards systems, we don't support that institution, #systempunk

[sophieinwonderland]

Well, I went through all the trouble of typing a response and then they just block me before I can post... if only there was a tag I could post my response in... 🤔

You’re the ones who invaded our tags first,

That's pretty clearly not true if you've been paying attention to anything happening over the past several months on this site and anti-endos constantly posting hate in inclusive tags.

Not only do you take away system resources,

What resources? Be specific?

Terms? Because again, besides Plural as a term, fictives and factives were taken from the endogenic soulbonders. In reality, vast majority of system terms in circulation came from endogenic and pro-endo systems.

Maybe you mean resources like Pluralkit and Simply Plural. You know, that are made by the pro-endos. And get many of their donations from endogenic systems.

Or, I don't know... do you think the non-trauamgenic systems and non-disordered systems are seeking mental help from your trauma therapists? 🤣

Come on! Tell me the resources! Don't just use this as a buzzword!

Tell me, you have no actual medical professions claiming endogenics are real and we have many claiming they aren’t.

Oh? You do, do you? Can you name them? I can name mine!

Here's Dr. Eric Yarbrough...

That book, Transgender Mental Health, was actually reviewed and published by the American Psychiatric Association, by the way!

Of course, if you want the opinions of an expert in DID, there are these emails from Colin Ross!

Oh, but what does he know? He's just one of the foremost experts on DID with 40 years of experience.

How about brain scans? Here's Dr. Michael Lifshitz, psychiatry professor of McGill University discussing some of the findings from his $50,000 study into tulpa systems, sponsored by Stanford University, which showed neurological changes in tulpa systems while a tulpa was controlling their limbs.

To be fair, the results haven't been published yet, so maybe you can hold onto the hope that this professor with many published papers on his belt is lying about the results. That will be a fun hope to see crushed!

And I could go on... and on... I have a long list and this is just a taste of it.

But anyway, you were telling me how these "many" medical professionals are claiming endogenic systems aren't real. Can you name them for me? Even just one? Come on. If there are so many, it shouldn't be hard!

People like you groom actual systems into believing their trauma “wasn’t bad enough” so they think they’re endogenic

"Punk" to you is apparently using authoritarian right-wing queerphobic tactics of misusing the word "grooming" to make people associate the out group with child abusers. (See every right-winger accusing LGBT people of grooming kids to be gay or grooming them to be transgender.)

Not to mention you stole the term syshopping from RAMCOA survivors.

Nope. That's a lie.

System hopping, as a term for traveling between different bodied-systems, existed since at least as far back as 2005.

The RAMCOA association came from one RAMCOA system in 2021. The system who originally said that later said their words were taken out of context, deleted the original tweet, and condemned anti-endos for using their tweet to spread hate.

I've gone over this before with sources in the post below, thoroughly debunking this lie.

There is zero basis to this whatsoever.

Although you bringing this up and reminding me how anti-endos are trying to rewrite history to take this term too is only increasing my motivation for taking the systempunk and syspunk tags.

Not to fucking mention, you steal actual therapists from us by trying to make them believe in endogenic bullshit.

Wait!

I thought you said no medical professionals believed us!

Now we're stealing therapists by making them believe in endogenic systems?

Which is it??????

never touch the systempunk tag again

Nope! Sorry! Too late for that now!

Anti-science hate groups don't get safe spaces. And the fact that you've created an echo chamber where you can safely spread lies like the systemhopping libel above is only evidence that I need to make more of an effort to correct the lies of anti-endos at their source.

No Safe Space For Hate!

[anti-endo-safe-space]

Endos really see things like "anti endo" and "endos dni" and instantly think "this person is claiming I'm fake and being awful and terrible and bigoted."

Like ok. Yeah. Whatever. I don't even have the energy to give a "bare minimum benefit of the doubt" to some of the endos that aren't total pieces of shit. They'll see anything anti endos do as aggressive harassment.

If anti endos truly were bigots then uh, I've not seen any minority purposefully go into the tags of bigots and argue with them or steal tags from them or anything like that. Most people say to block and sometimes report. Like what anti endos largely say to do.

Endos really see any system being anti endo leaning or have "endos dni" and assume it means it's the worst possible fakeclaiming asshole that is out to hurt others and harass them. When. I dunno. I've seen like 3-5 endo accounts I felt the need to block cause they were far more aggressive or really actually gatekeepy about stuff, I barely even remember how bad they were if I'm honest. I've really blocked far more endos than anything esp for invading tags. I see about 5ish accounts that invade tags, a lot more tag invaders being like aspen or a fan or whatever. Which. The anti endo community hates cause they're actually ableist and just harass people.

Endos really react with a defensive mindset at just merely seeing us. Seeing the way they invade systempunk because we wanted a punk tag for ourselves. Saw pluralpunk, made their own tag, tag gets invaded. Usually they justify it by "harassing back" but like. Anti endos just made it for themselves. Esp since a lot of us are punk. But it turned into a whole "fight" with anti endos just wanting their tags to not be invaded.

I'd say "make it make sense" about everything with endos, but I don't think it ever will. Even we have our own triggers with endos including aggressive/mean alters and persecutors that hate them and can be nasty. And we still...do our best to be fair towards the less awful side of endos esp since some or many may either be minors or a system in major denial or both. But god. Endos really get aggressive and defensive about not instantly being accepted. When most anti endos at this point don't even fucking care to argue over origins or non disordered plurality, they just want their own spaces cuz IF non disordered plurality existed, it's very fucking different and trauma survivors want their space for their experience.

Yeah. Maybe the trauma survivors, who already with a small space and constantly being treated like shit and even told by professionals that their disorder doesn't exist along with the history of endogenics and Empowered Multiplicity making everything harder for CDD systems, will want their own fucking space and not share with those that are fundamentally different from them. Like. Can't imagine why trauma survivors want a space to themselves. Almost like...trauma survivors deserve spaces and they're very important. Like. We're only one tumblr cause of needing a narc positive space. And then found ourselves in more spaces for disorders including system spaces. It's kind of actually important for anyone to have spaces where they can be safe in. Not constantly having to share it with people who are nothing like CDD systems.

Paragraph by paragraph!

We've honest to whatever you believe in SEEN people say that anti endo and endos dni for ANY reason is them saying they hope endos drop dead. Like no. We have anti endo and endos dni because they upset us, a fair amount have caused us paranoia or trauma, and just it's okay to not want them to interact with everything.

Yeah, yeah that's sadly true. We've ran across a fair amount of endos and trying to give them the bare minimum results in a ton of hell because even just an endo-neutral system going "hey endos please don't interact as this is about my trauma as a system" and start calling to boycott because that's "harassment".

We've seen some minorities do that but it's usually take the tags back (for example, we've seen a lot of pwNPD take anti NPD tags for themselves, but they tend to not argue unless they just make comments about "hey that's just not what NPD is please get your facts straight"). Exactly! So many say block, report, move on.

Yeah, a fair amount will say that juts because they want a system space to themselves for their trauma and to help them cope with everything. I have seen some anti endo accounts call for harassing and boycotting and shit (you can guess which ones, they tend to also try and tag steal which, I'm sorry but tag stealing isn't okay. Co-occupying is okay (like with the plural tag which we tend to use because from what we've seen, the coiner is okay with endos and traumagenics using) but don't steal) but we tend to see more from endos/pro endos (we aren't naming any because no one deserves that). Sadly a fair amount of anti-endos are pretty ableist themselves which is fucked up for trying to fight ableism.

That's exactly how we've wanted to phrase things. We've seen so many say "hey systempunk is made against us we need to steal it", you guys have pluralpunk. We haven't invaded (or SHOULDN'T) invade pluralpunk. It doesnt matter if your being harassed, harassing back solves nothing and only makes life more difficult. Yeah that's something we've sadly seen a lot of is a fight that shouldn't be one

Most things with endos we've found don't make sense. We've got some (as they phrase it) avenger alters who would like to go toe-to-toe with some endos for things they've said and done to us but we still don't. Because while we don't like the ones who take our disorder and try to make it all cutsie and fun (build-a-headmate blogs for example), a lot are minors or in major denial or both. When we first heard of systems, we didn't even know what endos were and thought we could be one because we were so heavily in denial. A lot of endos we've seen have equaled it to someone queer not being accepted when there's a difference between being queer and having a mental disorder. If we don't have an ask, we honestly forget about the point of arguing over origins because it takes a lot of time and effort. We've said it before we'll say it again, we wouldn't have ever created this if endos didn't try to steal system terms and tags, if they kept their part of the internet then this account wouldn't have ever existed.

We spent a little bit when trying to find a therapist testing the waters with claiming a friend who's a system was trying to find a therapist just to be told that CDD's are fake or some bs with that, it's not that bad to want a space to themselves. It's not wrong to want a space for the people who went through similar trauma and coped in a similar way, in this case being a system. People who claim not to be traumatized but be a system is so fundamentally differnet it makes sense why trauma surviors don't want space. We get that, we started in system spaces and now we've been looking down narc positive spaces because we need that safe space.

[the-cosmic-collective-sys-blog]

🍁Hot take: Instead of posting in systempunk tags we should go back to using the pluralpunk ones more/srs

🍁Is fucking with anti-endos fun? Yeah, but it can also be draining when they inevitably attack you for going into their tags.

🍁Sometimes it's better to encourage inclusivity than challenge exclusivity-- and while those SOUND like the same thing, it's the difference between going into systempunk tags to rile up anti-endos and using the pluralpunk tag to show system solidarity and progress.

[cambriancrew]

Endogenic =/= nondisordered. There are endogenics with trauma unrelated to their origin that caused DID/OSDD-1, and some who simply are dysfunctional and therefore disordered without trauma.

No one's saying that people are system medicalists for believing DID and OSDD-1 are disorders. It's medicalism to insist that those disorders are the only way to experience plurality. Especially without a single shred of evidence or a single medical professional on record supporting that claim. Meanwhile endogenics and nondisordered systems have the support of the American Psychiatric Association and the World Health Organization.

It's not that it's ableist to not support endogenics. It's ableism to insist that neurodivergence must be a disorder and if it's not causing you dysfunction then you can't be having that neurodivergence. And it's bigoted and ableist to insist that people must be delusional or have ficticious disorder if they're insisting they're plural without trauma origins or dysfunction.

Also, most endogenics are trauma survivors too. We're not untraumatized people going against trauma survivors. We who are endogenic and have trauma are fighting for the right to determine the origins of our plurality for ourselves based on our experiences and knowledge of our personal history and beliefs. We don't want to be automatically considered traumagenic just because we're plural and have trauma. We have the right of self-determination to figure out ourselves our own way.

Also, we're not taking any terms that belong to pwDID. "System" has been an all plurals term since the 1990s, and when we first joined the online plural community about ten years ago it was first most widely associated with endogenics, NOT pwDID. "System hopping" (which most endogenics don't even believe in anyway) traces back to the general plural community in the early 2000s and did not come from RAMCOA systems. Fictive and factive came from soulbonding communities. Are there any other terms you've been told we're taking?

Also there's really not an influx of endogenics trying to go into traumagenic spaces. There's mixed origin systems who do because part of their origins IS trauma, even if not all of their system stems from it, and they belong in those spaces. Endogenics with dissociative disorders deserve access to spaces for dissociative disorders.

Recently there was a big outcry about the systempunk tag because 1) Endogenics are systems too, 2) pro-endogenic systems who are traumagenic are systems too, 3) it was actually coined and the tag started quite awhile ago by a pro-endo system before anti-endos tried to claim it as their own and 4) being anti-endo and pro-medical-origins-only is the antithesis of what being punk is about.

There IS an influx of endogenics into non-system spaces like fandoms and digital pet sites and furry spaces and hobby spaces, pushing out anti-endos. We belong in those spaces just as much as anyone else. We shouldn't have to confine our plurality strictly to plural specific spaces and have to mask everywhere else. That's not fair when anti-endos don't have to do the same.

Please note my use of language here is very intentional. Anti-endo is anyone, primarily systems but also singlets, who believe that the only way to be a system is to have trauma origins leading to a dissociative disorder and therefore endogenics are mistaken or faking. Endogenics aren't always nondisordered, and nondisordered systems aren't always endogenic.

Hey hey, this isn’t the point of my blog. But I wanted to say that at this point I am more endo-neutral currently. I’ve been looking into research for both sides so I’m currently undecided. I’m just waiting for more hard evidence of non-disordered plurality to be confirmed.

Though, even if non-disordered plurality IS real. I am still very against the movement of taking labels and spaces away that are for traumagenic systems. Even if endos are in fact real you guys need to stop battling trauma survivors, seriously.

And the term “sysmed” is stupid. You can’t make a term when all they’re doing is medicalising a medical disorder. If endos want to be accepted then you guys need to make some changes in the way you do things. The people you’re going against are trauma survivors and you need to fucking respect that, they’re medicalising their MEDICAL disorder, they aren’t sysmeds they’re people with a serious disorder.

If you guys truly want to be accepted, you need to start having actual conversations instead of calling trauma survivors “sysmeds” and “bigots”. That’s not how you’re gonna gain respect. Also stop calling people ableist for not supporting you, how would they be ableist when you claim not to have a disorder?

Stop trying to go into traumagenic spaces, stop stealing terms meant for trauma survivors. And then maybe you’ll gain some respect.

I am leaning anti still, but I wanted to share my thoughts. This will be my last post on the matter.