#spn isn't christian

[dirigibleplumbing]

No bc you're so right about supernatural, the take that spn is solely christian also feels to me like it erases all the jewish creators/writers who worked on it

Yeah!!! And like. For one thing. Jewish texts mention that there are other gods than ours, it’s just that we’re supposed to worship only ours. Whereas Christianity says that there is only one. And that is something that is demonstrably untrue in spn!

Not only that, but my argument here isn’t even that spn is Jewish, necessarily. It’s that Christiannatural is just as much of a headcanon as Jupernatural! Because spn isn’t actually Christian!

[quietwingsinthesky]

castiel & uriel as michael & lucifer parallels drives me insane btw

[witsserviceablesubstitute]

I can't stop thinking about the ask that said Supernatural wasn't political, being it's a show that rips up the bible, takes from it what it wants, compares both the writers and abusive fathers to God, and ultimately destroys God in the end.

[mybrainproblems]

every day i pretend that i simply do not see posts

every day i am god's bravest little toaster (seeing and ignoring posts)

[ananke-xiii]

Because of a post I've shared I accidentally ended up thinking too hard about "Paradise Lost" and "Supernatural" and I'm here to make it everybody's else problem.

I am heavily invested in narratives whose subject matter is, at its core, the loss of Paradise and I'm somewhat critical of the inherent anthropocentrism of this ancient myth with all the complex issues that it entails. I think it's high time we changed our point of view on things. But I'm also interested in observing the modalities by which certain stories keep being reashed and why.

So back to SPN: as a full disclosure I don't think "Swan Song" is the "real" and best season ending because, well, it's not the real ending and, imo, it's not the best. It is, however, a good way to end the era of a showrunner, although it reveals a "bit" of inflated ego to title an episode this way, especially if the "swan" in question can also be interpreted as the leaving showrunner's self-insert disappearing into thin air. Dude, chill. (the unnecessary ego boost is, alas, a very common thing for white male normie writers). I also think that both "Swan Song" and "Carry On", the real series finale, are conservative endings but they differ in the way they turn out to be so.

The loss of innocence and the Fall of Man are the not-so-thinly-veiled premises of Supernatural. In this respect the "Paradise Lost" from s1-3 isn't simply the infamous "white picket fence life" but the "white picket fence life without knowlegde of the monsters". These are two different things and, as I've written here about "Breakdown", the real "issue" that our characters have to face is coming to terms with the fact that once you know that there are monsters out there, you cannot un-know it. In other words, once you eat the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you cannot go back.

From S4 things get even more complex because we discover that even the supposed "good" isn't "good": Sam and Dean's lives were predestined by heaven's scheming plot to (pro)create Michael and Lucifer's "perfect" vessels in order to start the Apocalypse, which means to end Time altogether, which means that angels, too, want to go back to how things were before their father left the building.

I'll just leave it here en passant but, from this perspective, it's actually fun to see that the real Absent Parents of the show are Mary and Chuck, rather than the usual John and Chuck parallel. Interesting.

Because in SPN s4 the Apocalypse is Christian in themes&motifs but not from a theological pov, the ones who are supposed to be the "good" guys aren't the good guys and because there's no good there's no soteriological figure. For all those talks about "saving people" there is no salvation in SPN. In other words, Apocalypse in SPN s4 just means total destruction without redemption/resurrection for the "good" ones and damnation/second death for the "bad" ones. Paradise on Earth yes, but only for the angels. It follows that our main characters cannot go back doubly. They can leave the hunting life, they can even pretend monsters aren't real (which, according to the show's logic means that evil is real), they can have all the white picket fence houses and all the 2.5 kids and 1 blurry wife meal combo that they want, they can never, ever go back. Even the Apocalypse will NOT bring them all back to their "Paradise Lost", to a Golden Age of eternal spring.

Since Supernatural is a show that was set out to be an epic that ended up being a romance (whether some people like it or not), and since it's an explicit reference in its S4, I think it'd be interesting to see what I've just said through the lenses of Milton's Paradise Lost.

On this I can agree with Kripke-era aficionados: his Lucifer was the most compelling iteration of the whole three? four? FIVE? There are different Lucifers according to each season so I'm losing count of them here. Now it couldn't have been that difficult to pull that off because s4-5 Lucifer is basically Milton's Lucifer but less militaresque and more misunderstood gifted child. If it weren't for our main characters, specifically for Sam, one would even root for him because angels are, in Kripke era, very dickish and God seems like a real loser.

But if SPN Lucifer is Milton's Lucifer it also means that Sam is Eve's Milton because Sam's the one that Lucifer tempts and who eventually "falls": both literally into the Pit and figuratively because he says "Yes" to Lucifer. The funny thing is that if I go down this road three things emerge:

consenting to possession is equating to tasting the forbidden fruit and, therefore, to the Original Sin;

Sam is Lucifer is Eve falls into the Pit with Adam/Michael;

the world as it is, with humans and monsters and evil IS the New Paradise Lost that Sam/Eve and Adam/well... Adam, lol, lose to the Pit.

So is there someone who's regained the lost Paradise? At first glance, it would seem that yes, Dean has regained access to his Eden: a house in the suburb, a partner named Lisa (Elizabeth means "God is perfect"), a son named Ben ("son"), it looks like he's managed to go back.

However, spying on Dean's life from a distance we also see Sam who now looks even more like Lucifer from "Paradise Lost" when he spies on Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. In other words, the ending of S5 looks like a house of mirrors of the pilot and we know that the events of the Fall will happen again and again and again because the horror is that nobody has managed to go back, at all. The Paradise stays lost, Heaven stays a mess (and it's even more haunting as we now know that it's 100% not "the good place", indeed it's a real threat to our main characters), the mother (and the father, too!) stay(s) dead, God has re-disappeared and we can't see him anymore.

If I compare this to "Carry On" the first thing that comes to mind is that, in the latter, Paradise is regained in a way that's both literal and metaphorical that I find even more depressing and conservative than "Swan Song" and its ego-referentiality (the god/author has left but you'll be stuck in his story nonetheless, someone should put in a good word for the showrunners/writers after Kripke and the tyranny they were all under, lol, I think I'll start doing that because, from this pov, I can see how they really tried the best they could).

First of all, in "Carry On" Paradise is basically a reformed Heaven, a Heaven without borders if you will, which. meh. Second, this Paradise is exactly the same as the pilot: a normie house, both your parents are alive, all the people you love are around you forever and ever. There are no monsters and therefore there is no evil (what about the angels, they weren't "good"? Don't ask about the angels). It's the literal Golden Age, the Return to the Origins but supposedly even better because you're not a 4 yo kid but a full grown-up who can drink and drive. Lol.

In a twisted way, then, SPN finale is a "happy ending" type of ending because Paradise is not lost anymore, it has been regained. The sad part is when the camera pans out and we see all the camera workers and the people behind the scenes whereas in "Swan Song" we saw the god/author disappear. They look like two different movements but they reveal the same thing: the blurring of the lines between fiction and reality which is a dangerous "Revelation" because we have control over our myths, over our fictions. We can change them or we can change our perspective on them. Stories can save us in this way. We don't have to keep repeating them, we don't have to stay trapped in the house of mirrors. This is important because, at the end of the day, the myth of the paradise lost, regained or not is just that, a myth. There is no real Golden Age because there is no Fall. We can imagine new endings and new myths and new fictions. We actually should and must create them ourselves, I think.

[this-world-of-beautiful-monsters]

now i'm thinking about how in lis1 we see christianity in the form of soft harmless characters like kate marsh, who is victimized by her faith that she holds onto so desperately, and by the evil nonbelievers who mistreat her for it, and lis2 is all about characters like lisbeth who use their faith to harm others or characters like Jake trying to actively escape it. in lis2 christianity is alternately a violent colonial force designed to shatter queer families/families of color and as the backdrop to acts of divine destruction, divine justice like Daniel's and as a watcher deliberately letting all this happen. i saw this post somewhere about how spn portrays christianity as this ominous omnipresent force in the american landscape and that's how it is for the diaz brothers, it's an uneasy potential explanation for Daniel's powers that turns into a tool of control, it's the cold stars from above, it's the crosses at graves during their most traumatic moments, it's the gap between Esteban's religious art and Lisbeth's even while depictingly seemingly the same god.

ntm that kate contains most of the explicitly christian elements of lis1, but in lis2 christianity seeps into episode after episode the way it does in real american life, constant to the point of virus, popping up in dialogue and imagery and conflict and plot structure, constant themes of belief and sacrifices and justice vs forgiveness. this could even extend how you interpret the endings of the game--the whole point of the supposedly superior "redemption" ending is being saved from sin, washed clean through suffering--so is parting ways, almost the idea of peace achieved through a sacrificial lamb, while lone wolf is the divine punishment for Daniel's hubris. blood brothers is the only ending that breaks from the mold by reveling in sin and refusing to accept a reward later for suffering now, creating a filthy greedy eden on earth instead, falling down south to a country us culture works very hard to demonize as some kind of criminal deviland and refuse to rise back up the coast into whatever cages have been set for them.

while lis1 has all sorts of theories about the supernatural events, ghosts and sci-fi stuff and weirdly appropriated Indigenous mythology, divine origins is one of the few constant explanation for Daniel's power that comes up again and again, as constant as or more than the general themes of superhero comic tropes. and the worst part is you can't prove a negative, you can't prove Daniel isn't divine, because we never get any other explanation for his power the way we never get any explanation for the other ability sets. if we still don't can't be sure Rachel or Max or whatever was behind The Storm, we can't prove god didn't send Daniel to lisbeth, only that said god would be very, very cruel if he had. he's a maybe-divinity trapped in a christian system that too often ignores or distorts its own teachings, or only clings onto the most hateful ones, and of course systems like that are designed to create specific kinds of bloody angels or specific kinds of holy sacrificial lambs, so it's up to Sean to decide which one his brother is going to grow up to be.

[420technoblazeit]

tbh dick roman isn't a HORRIBLE antagonist, i just think the decision to move spn away from its original themes of the intersection between christianity and political conservatism in america to idk. talk about consumerism was kind of a downgrade

[light-me-on-pyre]

Dean: *passes an old woman with an upside down cross*

Me: red herring red herring red herring there is no way your ghostie or cultist is that obvious this early keep walking man

The boys: "so I think we're dealing with a strigha which date all the way back to ancient Rome-"

Me: so pre-christian? What would a pre-christian entity want with an inverted cross?

I just started watching Supernatural because why not and

The shape shifter episode?

The shape shifter episode.

The entire episode was giving me whumpflies. The premise is a shapeshifter turns into the husbands and boyfriends of the women he tortures and kills and the real guys take the fall for it. And I just

The situation from the women's prospective. The "please don't hurt me any more" to the real husband.

Imagining a whumper who tortures like this but doesn't kill. The victims testimony means the real guy goes to jail for sure even when no cameras. How does he convince her it wasn't really him? Even if it ends with a reveal and exoneration like the episode, how can she trust him? How does he grapple with the fact she believes, with good reason if emotion driven, that he's capable of that?

I just

Oooooh I see why people like this show.

[imthedr3amer]

📖 Fic share: RPF, J2, Explicit 🍝

Rating: Explicit

Archive Warning: No Archive Warnings Apply

Category: M/M

Fandom: Supernatural RPF

Relationship: Jensen Ackles/Jared Padalecki

Characters: Jensen Ackles, Jared Padalecki, Chad Michael Murray, Christian Kane, Misha Collins, Katie Cassidy

Additional Tags: First Time, Alternate Universe, Community: spn_j2_bigbang, Challenge: SPN Big Bang, Podfic Available, Alternate Universe - Chefs, Male Friendship, Male-Female Friendship, Cooking, Baking, Misunderstandings, Hook-Up, Developing Relationship, Long-Distance Relationship, Family Issues, Brother-Sister Relationships, Alternate Universe - Restaurant, Writers, Reality TV [Extra tags by me: Bottom Jensen Ackles/Top Jared Padalecki, Blow Jobs, Hand Jobs, Anal Sex]

Language: English

Series: Part 1 of Kisses Sweeter Than Wine • Part 18 of Supernatural RPF works

Collections: Supernatural and J2 Big Bang 2010

Stats: Published: 2010-06-17 Words: 35,295

Kisses Sweeter Than Wine

by t_fic (topaz), topaz, topaz119 (topaz)

Summary: Texas in July is not exactly where Jensen Ackles has any desire to be, but a job's a job and interviewing Jared Padalecki, the most famous and successful winner of America's Next Celebrity Chef for Saveur magazine isn't something Jensen's going to turn down. He'll do the interview, try not to laugh, and get back on the plane. Jared isn't any happier at the thought of yet another interview with someone who's already made up his mind that Jared's nothing but a pretty face, but the network insists, so fine. He'll do the interview, practice his patience, and be done with it.

Funny how things don't quite work out that way.

[Don't forget to toss kudos and a comment to the author. 🫶]

[definitely-not-an-alb]

Trying to figure out why this pisses me off so much and coming up with the following:

a) Cain-And-Abel motive is a conflict motive and you can't assign it as a static character trait. 'There is a cosmic enmity between us that will breed resentment that will, inevitably, escalate into violence' isn't a thing that characters can passively carry around with them. This needs resolving. And it most certainly isn't a happy end?!

b) Cain-motive is not something assignable to two characters. Famously, one of them has to be Abel! Famously, they are not the same!

c) Cain doesn't want to kill Abel for the lulz, he pretty famously has a reason for it - this is not just the point above, it's a third point because there's a third factor here; EITHER the third force that pitted these two characters against each other (actively or passively? maliciously or obliviously? literally or figuratively? You must decide!). Narratively, this isn't always Sky Dad - sometimes it's just a regular, lower capital dude-dad. See SPN for more info on this. OR some kind or Ur-Sin concept OR both. You will have to decide so much stuff that influences the interpretation! The Bible sucks like that.

d) Cain and Abel is a Christian mythos motive and therefore come with baggage themes attached. Like Christianity. Ask yourself: Are these two characters engaged in a narrative conflict over questions such as 'am I my brother's keeper?' and 'is it right to murder another over the innate differences between us'? No? Then that's probably not a Cain and Abel motive!

e) and attached to that last point - Not only does Cain and Abel come with those questions, it also comes with ANSWERS. The Bible is really accommodating like that. Those answers are 'Yes, you dipshit' and 'no, what the fuck, dude', respectively. If you invoke Cain and Abel, you are invoking intertextual conversation with those answers and also everyone else who has ever written about Cain and Abel. Which is a lot of people, including Eric Kripke.

In conclusion, your miniature race track is not #trolly problem just because it has rails. And if that suddenly got very Christian for you towards the end, may I suggest not purposefully invoking one of the Christian ur-themes.

Now, I will acknowledge, Judaism (and some others) might also have opinions on Cain and Abel, but I don't know about that and, let's be perfectly fucking honest here, neither do you because you all just got that from SPN, a show that is NOT SUBTLE kind of like the Bible so I'm kind of confused how we got here.

[dirigibleplumbing]

I have 2 takes I'm gonna start posting about soon that some following me may not want to see or engage with. they are:

it's okay to still enjoy the Harry Potter books, just stop giving JKR money

and

Supernatural really isn't a "Christian" show, Chuck isn't the "Christian" god, and the assumption that are they are is a glaring example of cultural Christianity

please consider unfollowing me or blocking relevant tags if you don't want to see these posts.

good-faith comments and asks about these topics are welcome

[golden-bubblebee]

Bubbles watches SPN pt5? Annotations throughout the episodes.

Season 2

Series 2 breaking my heart right out of the gates huh

Dean Kill count: 4

I mean how even, bestie we have only just reached series 2

Omg sams acting during this scene is phenomonal

The relief on his face oh my lord it made me cry

JOHN YOU FUCKING LYING PIECE OF SHIT OF A DICKWAD

Did John Bitchester trade his life for Deans

Jup. Jup he did

What crazy fucked up child smiles at the clown standing in the garden staring at her in the middle of the night

It got long. Get readmored

GIRL WTF??? STRANGER DANGER?? (Small child let's clown into her house)

more thoughts. now this isn't always the case but very often um hitting someone is a taught behaviour, right. But um Dean hits Sam a couple of times and you can argue that this is because they live quite a violent life. but there's a theme, the things they fight always fight back, it is always violent towards them. but we see Dean hits Sam a couple of times when he's not being physically violent when they re just having an argument so um theory John bichester also beat the shit out of a dean

Jo! You cant be angy at them bc of the sins of the father

Because Dean and Sam are the main characters you get very used to them and their banter and so it becomes very familiar

meaning that now in the next episode when I got to see the intro where Dean is holding hostages?? My first reaction was literally to laugh and go 'oh dean what did you get yourself into this time'

SAMMY IS A CHRISTIAN???

Sometimes you learn things abt a man

Like a daily prayer, this guy?

SAMMY WTF

🎶my daddy shot your daddy in the head🎶

Why do they keep saying 'waste' instead of 'kill'

Dean death count:5

Welp nvm

HOW DID BOBBY KNOW SO QUICK???? (That Sam was possesed, I'm guessing)

I love that in this episode they basically called Bobby over to be their Dad

KATE??

Kate from teenwolf is abt to get killed

Thats great catharsis

And ofcourse the bitch dont die

John shouldve been killed so much sooner so bobby could raise em instead

Oh man I fucking love Madison (werewolf girlie)

I need her to be part of the gang

No

Nuhu

No no no

Im crying

I dont like this episode

Nono (werewolf girlie had to die)

YOU CANT MAKE DEAN CRY

ISNT MY BOY HURTING EBOUGH YET

No wtf

Dont hurt my boys like this

Wtffff

There better be Maddison lives ABO fics out there

I need this guy to have a sweet lovung gf

I mean, he has good puppy dog eyes for suffering and painBut like, the guy smiles real cute too yk

Yk. Them breaking in to get themselves arrestet is very funny and all until you remember that the fbi have a frigging open case on dean

IM SORRY IM IN PAIN AGAIN

You are telling me that Deans biggest wish is that their dad never went demon hunting and thus never got them ended up in this life

Oh my fucking god the mom is going to be alive isnt she

Bunbun (my friend) I dont like this show it hurts me more often than merlin did

Dean hahahah this man has no tact

No im sorry his exitement to mown a lawn is actually heartbtreaking

It shows how severely he lacked normalcy and how deeply he craves it

Another thought

The. Fact. That. John. Is. Still. Dead. In. Deans. Ideal. World.

*War flashbacks* (my fellow AFTG fans will understand)

His impact on the wolrd😭😭😭

No Bunbun help I literally -sobbed-

When dean is talking to johns grave 'why do I have to be the hero. Does mom not deserve her life? Doed sammy not deserve to be happy?'

Sam slaugher count: 1

Gotta love that the literal demon from hell says 'im proud of ya' more often than their own father does

Love that NOBODY is surprised the guy crawled out of hell (john bitchester)

[via-l0ve]

Hay there B) I'm interested in the silly lil 🎃 :D

Fandom Supernatural, of course! Don't be afraid to pair me up with someone who doesn't get as much traction or isn't the main two (of course, if I don't get one of the main two). :)

I'm an avid enjoyer of everything spooky and scary and hunting would definitely be something I'd do if I were in the SPN universe. I feel the loner but necessary alliances type, but I wouldn't be one to get too attached unless I felt a serious spark. Not against working with the same individual more than once, either.

I personally like to imagine my own self-insert as some "earth angel" or spiritually in-tune young woman who can read auras, emotions, feel what one feels, etc etc. I'm what others would call an empath irl (not in the super trippy spiritual way if thats what you don't believe in), I'm just super compassionate and empathetic. I don't know if that part's important, but as rough and violent as I can be (when need be), I'm all for peace and tranquility within one another. I'd always try to solve any tension rather than make it worse. I keep quiet, reserved and to myself unless someone I care about is hurt and needs someone, or if someone tries to start bs with me. I was always that mother friend.

My anger and my envy I experience typically come from not really having a normal childhood even in real life. I never got to experience high school dances, dates, or hell even an irl high school to begin with. Just homeschooling, barely even any real irl friends or social cues. I envy everyone who gets anything and everything they've ever wanted.

My taste in overall men (and women) can be kind of unstable. I'll love the hero, but I'll also fall hard for the villain. My red flag is I think I can ease the villain's heart. No matter how clingy, or obsessive, or dickish they are. I'm also kind of obsessed (shhhh don't tell anyone...)

My hair is long, wavy and dirty blonde. My eyes are kind of sad, down turned like Blue Diamond's from SU. I like to dress in many different styles, if I'm feeling it but typically I go for something simple. Long, flowy skirts, blazers, t-shirts, flannels. If I'm feeling nice, a pretty white dress with pearl headbands. Or I'll try to look like a school girl coming home from a long, tiring day from dealing with her bitchy teachers and even bitchier classmates. Either light or dark, it depends on the mood. I'm also Christian.

I'm obsessed with true crime, demonology, mythology, and other spooky stuffs. I also enjoy writing, reading fanfics/novels, the occasional sketching and drawing, and I also wanna look into making custom dolls. I've looked into white magic before, attempted it a few times in the past. I'm a huge music fanatic, all genres (yes, even country...), but I typically listen to shoegaze, noise, metal, rock, and goregrind. Anything with screaming, distorted vocals, distorted/soft guitar, or no vocals at all, basically. (Examples being Duster, Deftones, Ghostemane, Giles Corey, Have A Nice Life, In This Moment, Birthday Massacre, etc)

I'm into some pretty dark shows and movies. I'm not in many fandoms, I don't see my own SPN self in many either, but I've seen a fair share of fucked up films. A Serbian Film, Dog Tooth, Lolita, The Handmaid's Tale (mainly the show), Miss Violence -- I watch them for comfort from my own trauma, and I see myself doing the exact same thing in SPN. My twisted past with ex boyfriends and abusive family members are probably what's gotten me head over heels, reeling over villainous characters that could snap me in half if they wanted.

I just want to be loved.

Anyways, I hope that's enough for you! I kind of overshared, but I hope it's alright! TL;DR I just want someone, anyone to love me for who I am and enjoy some of my hobbies. Take all the time you need, I understand your box might be full as hell.

first of all i love you so much and you absolutely deserve to be loved and worshipped because you’re beautiful and worthy of love and acceptance and care <3 (if you ever want to talk more my inbox is always open)

with that being said:

i ship you with cas :)

i know you said to not be shy to ship you with someone who isn’t the orig/main few, but i got heavy castiel vibes from you <3333

i think that he’s be drawn into your quiet but badass energy. how you want to diffuse traumas or tension before it even happens, but he also sees you on hunts as such a badass demon killing person. he also finds it fascinating how empathetic you are.

he loves all of your hobbies and often will sit next to you while you write or read. when you mention custom dolls he will freak out and absolutely ADORES watching the process.

he thinks you’re gorgeous. your blue eyes match his and your hair mesmerized him.

i also think that you guys can bond over traumas. while you have childhood based and family/ex-lover trauma, castiel definitely holds some trauma in thinking he’s not good enough or things from the other angels in heaven.

you guys balance eachother out. you teach him so much and you guys have the cutest little dates, the type to be up until 4am having deep conversations.

castiel also isn’t a rat and you deserve someone who isn’t a rat <33

[godsofhumanity]

SUPERNATURAL 5.19 “Hammer of the Gods” | REVIEW

i said i'd be reviewing SPN episodes, hee hee so here's the next.

OVERVIEW: Pagan gods hold a meeting to determine how they will respond to the Christian Apocalypse.

RATING: 7/10. i liked it!!!! there's only so many myth references you can cram into 45 minutes of screen-time, but i liked it tbh. there isn't much media with different myths interacting with each other, so i think this was pretty good!

AVAILABLE AT: again, idk where u can watch this for free sorry. if you have Prime or Binge, or maybe if u live in the US u can watch it on the CW or something

previous episode // all episodes // next episode

if you haven’t seen spn and intend to watch, do not read below unless you want spoilers!!!!!!

THINGS I LIKED / FACTS:

Mercury portrayal!!!!!!!!!!!!! the actor looked mischievous just like you'd imagine Mercury to be.

i liked the little nods to his speed with him typing on the computer extremely fast and nicking Dean's neck without being seen.

also, i think it's immensely suitable that Mercury was in charge of the hotel since he's the god of commerce (hotel is great for business!), travellers (travellers will stay at a hotel), messages (he's communicating with different gods to bring them together under one roof), and trickery (since the gods are conspiring to trick Lucifer).

Kali- disclaimer; idk much or really anything about hindu mythology, but Kali is the goddess of time, doomsday, and death according to Wikipedia..

this suits her character pretty well since she's appearing at Doomsday (the Christian Apocalypse but still)... and also she had a necklace around her neck that i think looked a little like a head of some sort? and a skull chain around her waist! i think this is a nod to the chain of heads that she's usually depicted with.

Elysian Fields as the hotel name. Elysium is not part of the Underworld, but usually considered a separate place entirely, and was pretty exclusive-- only certain heroes and righteous mortals specially chosen by the gods could enter Elysium, and this is paralleled on the show because only certain people enter the hotel-- Dean and Sam are intentionally let in to the place so the gods can hold them hostage.

funny Ganesh elephant moment- not strictly accurate because im pretty sure Ganesh just has the head of an elephant but isn't an elephant himself..?

the gods poking fun at their myths lmfaooooo and forgetting their own ages.

Baldur and "Loki" tensionnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!! i know it's not actually Loki, but yeah i liked it. nice nod to Loki being the cause of Baldur's death.

the whole concept of "what happens to the other gods during one team's end of days"... it's such an intriguing idea, and i honestly like the way SPN dealt with it.. all the gods at odds with each other, undermining each other's apocalypse beliefs.. having to team up together to deal with another apocalypse. but i think the team of gods they chose was strange.

THINGS I DIDN'T LIKE / DISAGREED WITH:

Odin looked like an Odin, but he had BOTH eyes??? i feel like it would have been so easy to make Odin more distinct by giving him an eyepatch, or a monocle, or maybe 2 different coloured eyes or something!! just something about his eyes because that's his most distinct feature. and a hat!

Baldur. handsome sure, but i'm hesitant about his role here. Baldur is the guy whom everyone loves, so for him to be having a romance with Kali who is kind of violence and the opposite of Baldur seems strange and out of place. i think Baldur could have been replaced by Tyr-- still not as mainstream as "Thor" but closer to accuracy?

also. Baldur should be in Hel so i'm not sure how he got out and how he's walking around free-spirited. it's a pretty essential part of his myth tbh.

also we know Ragnarok hasn't taken place yet to free Baldur from Hel because Odin himself says "lol the apocalypse hasn't started yet" and he makes a joke about getting eaten by Fenrir.

the gods having humans as their "meal". honestly i don't think i've heard of gods consuming mortals as a snack-- usually it's taboo for the gods to eat mortals, see Demeter and Pelops. so i thought this was kinda strange.. i know it's just a gore factor for the show but i meannnn really?

minor thing really, but Kali's shirt was red? i think it would've been a better nod if it was blue because like she's usually depicted blue.

[scoobydoodean]

The only issue I've ever had with DeanLisa is that it reads too much to me like the "I've met you only a handful of times and I wanna spend the rest of my life with you" ala Disney Princess + Prince trope, and I just can't stand that trope. That's just a personal preference though

But I've never had a problem with Lisa herself - I think she's really fucking cool actually, and that she really did care about Dean. I think they both were reaching for an ideal, a dream, and they found solace in each other, but the circumstances that led them together (the second/third/fourth) time were not conducive to a lasting relationship.

I think it's more biphobic to be super anti DeanLisa tbh? (as a concept, not saying you have to ship them). Bc it's denying that part of Dean, like people really wanna dive deep into Dean's queerness in the way he interacts with men, but it's incredibly biphobic to then deny a relationship he had with a woman that meant a lot to him. That relationship doesn't take away from his queerness, he's still bi even while he's with a woman. Sure, I can see the argument behind comp cishet relationships and how that's bi/homophobic, but I think in this situation it's more nuanced than that? There's so many factors that lead into Dean going to Lisa (mainly feeling completely abandoned by everyone..which...he more-or-less was, be it on purpose (Cas) or not (Sam)) after such incredible trauma, he's obviously going to go to someone who he can find comfort in, that he already knows, who cares for him and he cares for back...I don't think that's comp cishet

I guess I lived in my own little SPN bubble bc I had no idea people hated her so much until fairly recently, as I started seeing posts and stumbling upon old fics where she's written as a nasty bitch for NO good reason

I appreciate your thoughts on them, tbh bc I feel like I don't ever see people talk about them or it's in a very disparaging way

Yeah I agree with you. I have no problem with people just saying "I don't like it. It just isn't my thing. It's boring, it doesn't appeal to me, I do not vibe with it, I like another ship better, he should have gone to Cassie instead, I don't think the storyline ever should have been done because of x,y, z" etc. What is sooo weird to me is people who can't live with just saying they don't like it and have to make the fact that they don't like it some kind of moral issue and/or talk about it in a way that ends up just displaying their own (internalized or externalized) biphobia and misogyny (edit: and even ableism—because I have seen that one quite a bit too).

I have seen people say:

Lisa and Dean are both used up because they've had so much sex with other people and therefore the relationship is nothing more than an expression of their mutually low standards, where simultaneously neither of them are good enough for the other because they have had too much sex. (Which was then back tracked to Dean being the only one who is all used up from all the sex he has had, because we wouldn't want to be misogynists).

Dean and Lisa's relationship is conservative christian (as someone raised in a conservative christian home, I can assure you that is not the case).

Dean and Lisa is a heteronormative relationship and is therefore bad. That is... not only very debatable, but based on what? Why? What is so "heteronormative" about it? I'll pay someone $50 if they can tell me without being biphobic, homophobic, or misogynist, or basically line for line describing a post-canon or AU destiel fic they’ve recced before just replacing Lisa with Cas. (Having a home is heteronormative? Parenting a child? Living together? What is it? I can never get a straight (heh) answer.)

Dean/Lisa is biphobic. Again... why? Because Dean is with a woman? Do... do we know what bisexual means? Are we sure?? Because it sounds like—frankly—the queer community yet again being one of the more biphobic communities around, and saying bi people are only interesting and acceptable when they are in same sex romances, and otherwise they are heteronormative and bad and wrong and boring. Which is a great thing to make bi people on the internet (whether you count yourself among them or not) read. Like. I think the way we interpret many characters who are not explicitly and openly bisexual as bisexual has also in some sense poisoned people into treating bi-ness as like... an exciting accessory, instead of a sexuality. Which is again—not how bisexuality works, but is how people on Tumblr often seem to treat bisexuality when they act like it is an accessory being thrown on or taken off by a character. "Well Dean isn't wearing his bisexuality accessory right now since he's in a 'het' romance, so he is not shiny enough and I am not interested in him". It's just fucking weird and it makes me uncomfortable.

Also, I don't know why this comes as a shock to some people, but calling something "het" is not inherently an argument proving that thing is bad and wrong, and suggesting that it is is also fucking weird.

Edit: Another one I forgot—"Dean is messed up/'damaged' therefore Lisa should never have allowed him in her home". Because we think people with PTSD shouldn't be shown kindness by people who don't have PTSD, I guess, and people without PTSD should avoid people who have PTSD at all costs.

Like. It is no secret that I utterly despise Sam/Amelia. But you know what I don't do? I don't go around calling it heteronormative, or applying my weird conservative christian leftovers about sexual purity to the relationship, or saying Sam was too messed up in the head and a "normal" woman never should have allowed someone so "damaged" to be in her life, in order to shout from the roof tops how "problematic" it is for them to be together. I just say "I don't like it because Amelia is not an enjoyable character to me. I find her extremely awkward and uncomfortable and I don't like the way she talks to Sam and don't understand the romance."

[catsconflictscopicsandchamomile]

Serious Post For Once. MAJOR trigger warning for some fully-mask-off discussions of (mostly my own internal) racism, generally Actually Talking Abt Real Shit For Once.

ok, so..hm

I don't have the energy to try to write this academically rn so I'm just going to word-vomit it out.

I am really having....Feelings... about the characters of Grendel and Grendel's Mother, specifically re: race and BIPOC identities.

I personally am white as the driven snow (though Jewish, whatever that counts for in 2023. still 'wtf' abt all that personally).

I have been putting my heart and soul into a story centering modern/reincarnated versions of Grendel and Grendel's Mother for about three years now. they are some form of shapeshifter, usually take animalistic/monstrous/hybrid forms, often eat humans, and are canonically descended from Cain (kinda. its complicated but basically they are). they are also both EXTREMELY white.

I'd actually made this choice with an intentional eye on race, way back when this story started outgrowing its roots as a supernatural fanfiction (please dont ask). no longer limited to spn's Genuinely Concerningly White Actor Pool, I had to really look at these characters re: race and decide what I was doing going forward. At the time, I was already looking into Maria Dahvana Headley's "The Mere Wife", and its centering of race both intrigued and really repelled me. At first, the (lbr) graphic depictions of how this story's Grendel's nonwhiteness informs the violence against him shocked me in the way I think they were "supposed" to, and made me really take a step back and reconsider the entire narrative of Beowulf (though to b clear I was already pro-Grendel's side of things at this point) in terms of how closely it matched more modern treatments of BIPOC and specifically young men.

...and then I went "wait. isn't Maria Dahvana Headley white???"

after a LOT of research failed to provide any contradicting evidence, my self-reflection and serious though turned to genuine strong disgust. It felt, and still feels, VERY weird that a white woman with (afaik) white kids wrote a lot of the sentiments in this novel. if you've read it, you know the ones that I mean.

I attempted to research racial themes re: Grendel further and ended up in a rabbit hole about Cain, Ham, Mormons & Bigfoot (seriously.) and all of this, along with some other research, eventually led to the following conclusions:

narratives placing Grendel and His Mother as victims of racialized violence/heroic or sympathetic figures in a racially- and/or socially-conscious work are both amazing and necessary

not if they're written by white people. there's probably some exceptions but honestly that's just weird and makes my hair stand up(derogatory).

I am White People. I should not try to do this.

given the association (certain modern media almost bafflingly aside) between Cain/Ham and justifications for SLAVERY, I, a white author, should not only NOT make these characters BIPOC, but should lean pretty damn hard into their whiteness- it's not "reclaiming" exactly, it's like... "reclaiming"(derogatory)(ironic)

given the current political movements around Viking Shit, and SPECIFICALLY pseudopagan, christian-based anglo-saxon warrior male social orders, the figures of Grendel & His Mother can and maybe even SHOULD serve as symbols of active and violent resistance from within the communities (White As Shit) that the current alt-right claims to represent.

given ALL of that, the best way for me to write these characters is how I'm currently writing them- very white, very monstrous, would probably state their race as "fae" if asked and "white" and/or "european" if specified for human racial terms, explicitly monstrous, symbolic of both (my own) queer/disabled/neurodivergent rage, feeling of incompatibility with most/all friend groups or communities, as well as a larger theme of a "KILL ALL VIKINGS" fantasy enabled by them being Big Scary Creature Beasts.

However... its been a few years. I've been drowing myself in Anglo-Saxon Everything but fully ignoring racial and diversity issues, a huge part of this admittedly being irl stressors in my life that, shall we say, EXTREMELY reduced my capacity for basic empathy & Current Events Awareness to a degree that I'm only starting to repair. as part of this repair, I'm really questioning this. I've read some super fascinating stuff about Grendel & race recently, and yet.

...and yet

I can't shake the feeling that

as a white author, making this a race-centric narrative isn't just not my job/not my turft, its actually kinda pretty racist

however, refusing to write these characters for that reason then involves (at least internally) saying that "this kind of archetype" is ONLY "meant" to be written by BIPOC ppl, because "they're the only ones who really Get The Experience", and HOO BOY. THAT IS RACIST. that is me doing a great big racism right there.

...so what do I do? I really love my take on these characters. I've grown really attached to them. It seems like everything is actually pretty well in order for me in terms of why I made the choices I did- I've looked at the other things I could have done with these themes and they're Extremely Problematic At Best...

but I can't shake the feeling that I'm still missing something, fucking up somehow.

I'd genuinely welcome discussion on this, I'm not going to be offended or defensive about ANYTHING, legit if you want to tear this whole post apart via critique re: art or just my own biases, please do. I'm just trying to figure this shit out.

and possibly overthinking it. that is also definitely a possiblity.

*to be clear I don't hate or dislike Headley. I just don't GET her. I'm not sure WHAT to think.