#so maybe it's more like 1 darkners 2 lightners?

[wpmz]

a little ramble about the "ralsei is kris's old horn headband" theory (and why i don't think it's true):

i think the biggest issue i have with it/piece of evidence against it is the darkners are shown to have some memory of when they're objects. for example, chapter 1 darkners like seam and the spade king talk about being abandoned by the lightners, i.e. being left in the abandoned classroom, sweet cap'n cakes talk about what queen was like before the fountain showed up in their shop dialogue, in the spamton sweepstakes twitter qna it's implied that spamton knows noelle because she would always check her spam email despite this being well before the chapter 2 dark fountain could have been created, and there's probably others that i'm not thinking of off the top of my head.

so keeping all that in mind, if ralsei were the headband i feel like there would be some implication of him recognizing kris or at least having known lightners previously, but instead he talks about never having had friends before and waiting his whole life in castle town for the heroes in the prophecy to show up. this would only really make sense to me if he spent all his time as an object in the supply closet, or what feels more likely to me, that he is purely darkness, purely imagination, and not tied to an object at all.

i guess you could say that maybe ralsei forgot or lost his memories, or was told by someone else that he has to keep his identity a secret, but to me there just currently isn't enough evidence for why that would be the case, at least compared to what feels like the simpler explanation that being an object just might not apply to him, in the same way that turning to stone doesn't apply to him or being able to travel to other dark worlds does. ralsei is more different from the other darkners than he is similar in a lot of regards, and i think it would make sense for there to be a slightly deeper explanation for that than simply the fact that he's from the castle town fountain.

of course none of this explains why he's implied to look like asriel, which i think is the question most easily answered by the theory that ralsei is the headband. my best guess right now would be that it has something to do with connecting him to kris who is in turn connected with the player, but honestly i don't have much in terms of ideas on this one, at least until we possibly learn more about how ralsei or castle town even came to exist in the first place.

and of course, all of that said, this is all still just a theory and maybe i'm wrong! even while typing this up and thinking of possible counterarguments i've considered things i didn't think of before, and i do think it's a cute headcanon and it'd be fun if it did somehow end up being true, even if i don't think it's the most likely explanation at this point.

[petra-creat0r]

Deltarune: Fool's Fate Ch. 2 Secret Boss

Numero dos of my Fool's Fate secret bosses! I've talked about Poly a bit now thanks to the secret boss reactions but never actually posted what he looks like since I've struggled pinning down his design until now. I knew he was gonna have triangles, just didn't quite know how to execute the design until I was in call with some friends.

Poly's name comes from his inspiration, the urban myth arcade game Polybius, as well as low-poly or polygonal. I imagine that in his original game, the "User" was replaced with whatever username/highscore name the person playing the cabinet had put in. So if Chicago was playing the game it'd be Poly B. CHI. (Guess his name should technically be Poly B. USR then, huh?)

Poly's text quirk is replacing letters with numbers and basically talking in text speak. You can see it a bit in the actual picture, but basically it's like

"W3LC0M3 N3W US3R!" "R34DY PL4Y3R 1! PR3SS ST4RT 2 B3G1N." "U W4NT 2 PL4Y 1T. U W1LL PL4Y 1T. U W1LL PL4Y 1T!" or something like that.

The soul mode he uses is the blue soul since he's a platformer game.

Pretty much immediately after I determined that Fool's Fate Chapter 2 was gonna be set in an arcade, I knew I had to base the secret boss off of Polybius. I find it funny that @grimmdeltarune and I had the same idea for a secret boss concept independently.

Backstory under the cut

Poly used to be the most beloved and played game in all of the Arcade World. A simple 3D platformer, yet Lightners would come from far and wide to play his game. Everyone loved Poly, everyone wanted to be him, his game play was near addicting. Even if other cabinets in the arcade would come and eventually get replaced by newer one's, Poly's stood tall, never being dethroned since the day it was brought in.

That was until one day, a new player, or rather players, entered the game.

Electric Rhythm Empire, a new rhythm game with three primary characters. The Empress, the Emperor, and their daughter Ritsu. They quickly dethroned Poly in popularity both among Darkners and Lightners, and eventually Poly was completely forgotten about in favor of the more popular game.

That was until Poly met a man. A strange someone who revealed secrets to Poly that no Darkner should know, and promised to help Poly regain his popularity and crown. All Poly had to do was let the man modify some of his code and soon he would be irresistible to Lightner and Darkner alike. Poly agreed.

Just as the man promised, Poly's cabinet started to get played again. Anyone who came near became too addicted to stop, quite literally hypnotized into playing Poly's game. Thanks to the strange someone's help, Poly was popular again.

As soon as the man left though, those in power figured out about the harmful effects of Poly's game. In the Light World, Lightner kids would fight violently over who would play next and it was making people ill. In the Dark World, Poly was hypnotizing Darkners into liking him. Not to mention the corruption of his code.

And so, Poly's game was shut down and he was shunned from the rest of the Arcade world. Forced to live in the deepest, darkest corner of the world and be forgotten once again. Poly though, refused to stand for this. He was determined to make his game even better, and so then no one could stop playing again. He'd force any Darkner that came near to play what was essentially a death trap, and when they'd fail, he'd just make it "better". Trying to make it perfect so maybe one day another Lightner would look his way.

Eventually, a group of Lightner kids did stumble upon him after falling into the Arcade World.

--------

Ah I love Poly's backstory. It might be semi similar to Spamton's, but I pulled more from King Candy from Wreck-It Ralph now that I've put it to text.

He's just a silly little guy driven to insanity by the need to be perfect! If you don't play his game, he will hypnotize you into playing!

[lynxgriffin]

Possibly a coincidence, but when I first played Ch. 1, Susie felt like a flip on everything I had come to expect out of monsters compared to humans after Undertale in regards to how I'd assumed each to fit in as a party member in a game: She was meaner, more prone to violence, and acted as more of a physical brawler than Kris and only had a small amount of magic (even if it is still more than Kris). Of course she's undergone development and esp. with Ch. 2 monsters seemingly are closer to humans in this world and nothing says their species is super determinant of everything, but still it's interesting for me to see her as half human in that context.

Yeah, I was honestly mostly thinking about the idea in terms of 1) what the heck is going on with monsters and blood in DR since it's not clear at all, and 2) thinking on why Susie might behave the way she has, especially towards Kris.

Although honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that in the DR universe, monsters and humans are much more alike than they are in the UT universe. Magic doesn't exist in the light world, or at least it's magic that's no different from how we would consider it in reality, what with Catti's interest in occult magic. Monsters seem to be physical beings rather than magical ones. Heck, there's no evidence right now that there's even a huge difference between monster and human souls like there is in UT. Maybe that will get expanded upon in future chapters, but right now the evidence is leaning towards showing the stark differences between Darkners and Lightners, not humans and monsters. So that's definitely colored a lot of my thinking about it!

[lancerious]

Gimme any of your King thoughts you have rn

Good heavens

Uhhh I'll just list a bunch of random thoughts I have that I hope are fresh and not repeated a thousand times over lol

I imagine Spade King suffers from something called separation anxiety disorder, or SAD. If he doesn't have SAD specifically, then he at least has some general anxiety. There are a few parts to this, mostly involving theorizing and speculation. First, we have no idea what happened to Spade King's parents, though I headcannon that said parents passed away when their son was still fairly young. Regardless whether the parent/child relationship was healthy or not, they were still separated somehow. The same goes for Queen; we don't know the specifics of their relationship--though it likely was far from perfect, given how they're divorced--but they were separated regardless. I feel like this is most important with Lancer, as it's the one person Spade King likely holds in high enough regard. Given how the relationship between them is a bit...messy, with characters like Susie only making it worse, there's bound to be some anxiety from that. This is without mentioning how Spade King's presumed first interaction with Lightners ended abhorrently. I feel like all of this adds up to there being at least some anxiety in Spade King, perhaps it's mostly contained within him at the moment, even if he does lash out at times. This was a long one lol, but I think it's an important idea and likely has some footing.

Don't ask me why but I headcannon Spade King as having some Scandinavian accent, ofc we don't have an actual voice for him but I think a Scandinavian accent would fit him lol.

I like to think Spade King always had--and still has--a very wild and active imagination! I imagine he would daydream a ton, often to escape the likely not-so-pleasing reality he found himself in. Maybe he even wrote some of those said daydreams down when he was younger, but has since given it up.

I have the idea of Spade King--and the other overthrown kings by extension--knowing Jevil & Seam since he was a child. It's not entirely unlikely this is the case, as both Seam & Jevil are likely two of the oldest Darkners we know so far. We can only speculate, though I bet younger Spade King saw Jevil & Seam perform for the then-current monarchs, whoever they may be. Maybe Spade King found it entertaining, or maybe he wished he was doing anything else lol, who knows.

Another headcannon, I think Spade King is generally suspicious of Rouxls Kaard. There is some merit to this idea: first, Rouxls Kaard seems a bit out-of-place amongst the other Chapter 1 Darkners. Even if he fits the general theme of cards/puzzles/whatever, he still stands out. I imagine his introduction to then-Card Kingdom is akin to Sans & Papyrus from Undertale, what with them randomly popping into existence one day with no given explanation. Second, the idea of Rouxls being the "Duke of Puzzles" despite his much-blatant incompetence is a bit, well, odd. There were literally Darkners in that very area who specialized in puzzles, so why replace them with someone who seems horribly unfit for the job? See, I think there's a lot more to Rouxls, a lot more potential, and he's attempting to hide it by acting incompetent. That, or he genuinely doesn't know how to grapple with his large amount of power. Either way, I suspect Spade King was, and still is, aware of this to a degree. Perhaps he was trying to get Rouxls to snap out of it, or wanting to see how the notorious Duke would thrive in a position of authority. Who knows! It's just a theory I have.

Bit of a random thing, but if there was any Darkner from Chapter 2 who would have a decent chance at getting along with Spade King, it would be Swatch. First, Swatch runs a café. If Spade King does love to cook/bake, which is what I and clearly others think, that's already a good start. Second, Swatch has a very laid-back, professional, and overall "proper" personality. I think that sort of personality would go well with Spade King's--I doubt Swatch would get on his nerves often, if at all. I could probably think of more things, but still! I can see Swatch & Spade King being decent buddies, or at least tolerating each other, which is already impressive for Spade King lol. Though Swatch being loyal to Queen is a stumbling block now that I think about it, but hey, everything else works! Yaaay...lol.

This one's a bit out there and has nothing to back it up, but I like the idea of Spade King having resided in what is now Lancer's room when he was a child. Room inheritance! I guess you could say this works by process of elimination given what we know about Card Castle's layout, though it's possible said layout was different in the past. I dunno, I just think it's a sweet idea!

Whelp that's it lol, that's all my scatterbrained mind can think of for this post. It's difficult to think of things to say without being given proper guidelines lol but I have something!

[jutpa]

My theories regarding the future of DELTARUNE and why I believe them.

I consider myself a bit of a theorist, and I occasionally get ideas for a DELTARUNE future chapters take that I will probably never make, so I might as well get my ideas on how DELTARUNE will go forward out of my head and into the internet.

I mean yeah, there's the more popular ones like Chess Theory and Papyknight, but I'd be amazed if you didn't already know about those.

The next theory I have is that Mike is the superboss of Chapter 3. The reason I initially believed in this (before changing my mind until a certain fox changed it back) was because I believed that Jevil actually foreshadows both Queen AND Spamton, or at least the Spamton NEO fight. You see, Jevil's "Final Chaos" features the voiceline "THE TRUE AND NEO CHAOS". That is literally all of the evidence I had. However, with R.V. Pine's own Mike analysis suggesting the exact same thing but for different reasons, I realised that there might just be some more merit to my theory than I had previously thought.

Now for the real big ones. I have seen people discuss one of them, but I haven't really seen much discussion on the other one, especially it's likely implications for the future of DELTARUNE. These two theories are:

THE DARK WORLDS REFLECT UNDERTALE'S AREAS IN REVERSE

I've definitely seen discussion on this one before. The evidence was barely there in Chapter 1, maybe some visual similarities between King and Asgore with both of their battle sprites holding a weapon, as well as King basically being exactly how Toriel was making Asgore out to be.

But then Chapter 2 came out, with a technology-themed Dark World + a computer main boss with legs and a banger theme in the final castle that plays over encounters. Yeah, that sounds like the CORE to me.

The implications of this aren't too big, but at least it'll make it a bit easier to tell what Chapter 3's Dark World's going to be like. Given all the Mettaton game shows in Hotland, I predict a similar sort of thing will happen with Tenna, although I personally see them being more like Muffet.

Anyways, as for the other Dark Worlds, it's highly likely that the one after Chapter 3's going to be in the Church, and this Dark World, should my theory be correct, will parallel Waterfall in some way, with the main bosses (don't forget about chess theory) paralleling Undyne and Mad Dummy.

For reasons relating to the other big theory, the next two Dark Worlds will occur in one chapter, and will parallel Snowdin and the Ruins. The Snowdin Dark World will obviously involve Papyrus, given that he's the Knight in my interpretation. The Ruins Dark World, on the other hand, will most likely be in the Castle Town Dark World.

But what happens when you run out of areas? Well, that's where I seriously get into speculation. I believe that the Dark World after that... will be all of Hometown. Specifically, it will be created during the Festival, and could also be a prelude to the Roaring. It'll probably also be created when Asriel returns, and might just involve Dess as well.

And in case you're wondering, don't forget that there are two Knights in chess. Actually, no. There are four Knights in chess, and Kris is a pawn that got promoted to a Knight, thus making a total of 5. The black knights are Darkners, the white ones are Lightners. Maybe it's Alvin, maybe it's the Mayor, hell, it could even be Gaster trying to keep the story he wants to tell from being fully derailed if you want it to be that way. Either way, there's going to be another Knight involved after Papyrus realises that starting the Roaring is a very bad idea.

Anyways, onwards to the other big theory, that being...

THE SUPERBOSSES PARALLEL THE FALLEN HUMANS

This theory is sort of an extension on the previous one. My evidence for this one actually doesn't need any Spamton shenanigans. It just needs two things: Jevil and the Shadow Mantle.

Firstly, the whole deal with the Shadow Mantle foreshadowing, because that seems pretty important as well as being very straightforward. I mean... just look at half the fanmade Chapter 3 superbosses. They all use the green soul because the Shadow Mantle protects the user from the otherwise fatal attacks.

Now that I've got that out of the way... time for Jevil.

Jevil is... strange. At first glance, he doesn't reference any UNDERTALE characters (except maybe Sans with the slippers?), so why would I even mention him? Well...

His face looks like the Chara jumpscare face.

He uses a knife that sometimes turns red.

He thinks he's free, which is the most hilarious reference to the fandom I have ever seen. If you assume my theory true, then freedom (being something the superbosses have in common) is the replacement for determination (being something the fallen humans have in common). And of course, everyone knows that the popular fandom interpretation of the red soul is that its trait is determination. I've got my own headcanons regarding the red soul but that isn't important for this analysis so whatever. The fact that Jevil thinks he's free but isn't just feels like a joke aimed directly at the fandom... Anyways the fact his motivation is literally just to be pure chaos and probably kill people implies that if the red soul does have a trait it's definitely love/LOVE.

He also can't be killed. This doesn't reference Chara. It references Temmie Armour, which is for a related by-product of this whole thing.

Anyways, yeah. Jevil parallels Chara, and more specifically the version you encounter at the end of the Kill Everyone Route, a lot. Of course, we have no way of comparing Spamton to any version of the yellow soul human, because we don't know anything about them. However, Spamton does seem to be motivated by vengeance, which can be considered a corrupted form of justice (which would parallel Jevil's motivation of being pure chaos and probably killing people being a "corrupted form" of love (aka LOVE)).

What are the implications of this? Well, Mike already seems to be a sympathetic character, so there's the kindness. As for the rest of the bosses, they'll probably be: Integrity or Perseverance, Perseverance or Integrity, Bravery, Patience, and then Frisk.

Now, here's where the other implication comes in. You may have noticed that I'm not calling them secret bosses, I'm calling them superbosses. The reason? I predict that KRIS is the final superboss of DELTARUNE. Now of course, such an important battle cannot be locked behind a random side quest. Instead, Kris (along with the possibility of a few other superbosses), is a required superboss that you face no matter what.

So... there you go. Kris might just get to have their turn on the Freedom-mobile, while Hometown might just end up turning into a Dark World at some point.

[starswordneo]

In Chapter 2 of Deltarune, Queen says that Neo Dark Fountains could exist. We've got absolutely no clues on what they're about, but we can speculate with a couple safe guesses:

1. A Neo Dark fountain is a Dark world in a Darkworld.

2. This could be a place "Darker then Dark," a place "Dark, Dark, yet Darker."

3. Lightners gain Dark World outfits.

4. Dark Worlds are called a dream, Neo Dark fountains would be a Dream within a Dream

With these in mind, a "Darker World" might give Darkners like Ralsei and Lancer a "Darker World design." Don't know about Kris, Susie and Noelle, either they'll be unchanged, or something else may happen... I'd speculate they'd be hindered somehow by being too far from the light.

A "Darker World" would have it's own "Darkerners," But considering the Dream within a Dream status, I'd imagine it'd be more abstract and strange.

Though, if possible... Imagine a "Hyper Dark Fountain" A Dream within a Dream within a Dream. I imagine a "Hyper Dark Fountain" would be very far gone. Maybe something akin to Yume Nikki. Incredibly abstract and far detached, the "Darkest World." What would a "Darkestner" even be like? Would they be intensely whimsical and nonsensical, or would they be like what you find in the deepest pits of the ocean, considering the liquid nature of Deltarunes Dark worlds.

You could put these worlds in a layer system, Light World -> Dark World -> "Darker World" -> "Darkest World." Of course, I think you could go EVEN deeper, but There'd be pretty bad consequences I imagine. Going too deep into the ocean is a bad idea considering the pressure.

Thinking about this, it's sorta similar to FNaF world, yeah? Layers within layers, things getting more abstract and strange... Perhaps Gaster went too deep and became the "Old Man Consequences." Dark worlds typically have you fall down into them, or layer wise, ARE deeper. It's said Gaster "fell" into his creation.

Either way, I LOVE the idea of Darker Worlds, Darkerners, Darkest Worlds and Darkestners. Creatures getting so abstract until they're barely even related to what's in the Light World.

Plus, the idea of a Darker World Lancer & Ralsei just seem SO COOL to me! I'm imagining they'd simply have more exaggerated designs due to already being Darkners. Queen wants Power from a Neo Dark Fountain, if she gained Darker World powers, she'd be able to do QUITE A LOT considering how Formidable she is. I'd imagine Lancer and Ralsei getting a Power boost too, while the Lightners are weakened.

[nemesis-is-my-middle-name]

for my money i think the reason ralsei seems to ping as A Little Weird to so many people, and why kris doesn’t seem 100% on-board with them and prefers to talk to/seek comfort from susie when they get to choose, isn’t that ralsei’s a weird little saccharine asriel clone. or, it’s not just that.

it’s sort of unclear whose friend ralsei actually is. kris’s, or the player’s.

from the moment you meet ralsei, he’s hyping you up as the Hero of Legend, the one who’s gonna save the world from an eternal nightmare. he encourages you to be kind, but at the same time always lets you make your own decisions. making recommendations, never demands. not to you, at least.

he’s extremely reluctant to take “your special power” - the ability to ACT - away from you. actually, he very specifically wants you in charge, not susie.

even once susie takes away your “unique ability,” ralsei still asks you to pick whenever possible, and apologizes when susie chooses instead. a weird distinction when we’re both supposedly the same, right? lightner heroes?

not just that, ralsei’s obedient. you want him to eat the weird stump salsa? drink literal poison? sure! whatever you say, kris! he’s a perfect toy. obedient. kind. constantly encouraging you.

at the same time, he doesn’t want kris to think too hard about some things. he immediately tries to bury the spamton fight, insisting that it doesn’t matter. y’know, spamton, the one going on about breaking strings and being free?

except kris isn’t the one making all these decisions. ralsei addresses kris when he says “i think your choices are important, too!” but that sentence is not actually applicable to kris, at all. in fact, it sounds almost entirely directed at us. the player. the one actually making all the decisions. talking to kris won’t raise any eyebrows, since they’re the one standing right there, but maybe that’s just a front? maybe they’re addressing kris in name only, and their puppeteer in everything else?

i’m not necessarily saying ralsei’s doing this maliciously, or even deliberately. he might not even be aware kris and the player are two distinct entities. he knows way more than he should for a darkner, but that doesn’t mean he knows everything.

but keep in mind that kris knows all the same things we do. they are painfully aware that they’re not the one choosing anything. so having ralsei smile to their face and tell them to make good choices! probably stings. and they don’t really know his intentions either. is he really unaware they’re being puppetted, or is he on the player’s side here? that is ample reason for them to be suspicious or off-put by him.

Part 2: Susie

i think this also explains why kris likes susie so much more. it’s not just a “lesser of two evils” situation - susie is ralsei’s polar opposite in this weird inscrutable charade. almost her first words to you at the start of the game is your choices don’t matter. 

she’s constantly taking away kris’s agency. defying their orders, going off on her own.

she orders you around. i mean that literally. she orders you to walk into the dark closet with her, and kris does, with zero input from the player. in the opening chase sequence, she tells you to run!:

and in that upcoming chase sequence, even though you’re steering, you literally cannot stop running no matter what button you press. then she gives kris another order:

and once again, kris follows, with zero input from you.

this puzzle sequence, too:

in the two sequences where you, the player, see her perspective, you still don’t get to direct her. she ask for kris’s help with the puzzle in chapter 1, but outside of that, none of the choices you make matter. she’ll do whatever she wants, regardless. when you do finally get the ability to control her, it’s because she decides it’ll be the best way to get home, and it’s conditional. she makes it clear that she can still back out at any time.

even when she purportedly does give you a choice, like when you’re leaving at the end of chapter 1, it still doesn’t matter what “kris” says. you’re turning back around either way.

imagine how good that must feel for kris. they know their choices don’t matter. they are actually deeply, uncomfortably aware of that fact. they do not get to choose what’s going on. so first of all, here’s someone who’s - intentionally or not - validating that feeling, while simultaneously asserting their own independence. this person, at least, is not playing a game with their head. she has no ulterior motive.

and second of all, imagine how vindictively good it feels to see the entity taking agency away from you trying to make their decisions with your body, only to get told that they don’t get to choose either. 

no wonder that in cutscenes when kris gets to briefly move themselves, in the final confrontation with king or right after the spamton fight, they protect and cling to her. she’s freeing, briefly, and not completely, but without even being aware of it, she’s on their side.

[raining-anonymously]

ok i've been thinking about the card kingdom. we all know the deal—they lived in harmony with the lightners (presumably meaning they were played with as the majority are toys), until one day the classroom was abandoned and locked up.

obviously, this did not have a good affect on the darkners, even leaving the king of spades vulnerable to manipulation by the knight. for reference, i imagine the timeline to be something like

classroom abandoned -> gaster or whoever contacts jevil -> jevil locked away -> knight contacts spade -> spade conquers the other kings -> the closet door is opened -> deltarune ch 1 begins.

oh yeah, and at some point the fountain starts existing.

anyway, when the classroom was first locked up, everyone was just kinda chilling. there was no knight, or gaster(??), or grim awareness that your world doesn't exist. only a wide variety of negative emotions resulting from the lightners' abandonment.

i imagine rouxls and jevil would feel some of the least effect, seeing as they were never played with much to begin with, being the rules card and the oft-discarded joker respectively. and based on lancer seeming to know nothing about lightners other than his dad's propaganda, as well as lancer being a literal child, i'd say he wasn't conscious/has no memory of before the lightners left. maybe clover too, since she seems a bit on the younger side.

but the other cards definitely feel the effects, and we know that the king of spades was furious. the chess pieces and the blocks and the top and whatnot all likely experienced a loss as well. but—and this may just be me indulging Blorbo Thoughts—the character who i think would be affected incredibly severely is seam.

think about it. when we ask seam about the lightners, the way they're described is almost reverential. gods, creators, those who gave the darkners purpose, and all said with a smile... seam's surpassing ralsei-levels of lightner worship there. and despite dismissing susie and kris and their hero status, seam does appear to recognize their power by the end of chapter 1/start of chapter 2, implying they'll be able to defeat more jevil-level enemies. there's even some—dare i say—hope? anyway, right after the whole "lightners are so cool" spiel, Seam's expression turns noticeably grim while recounting the lightner's abandonment—only to immediately take up an educational, objective tone, sharing history with the lancer fun squad without any of seam's own feelings about the matter. seam definitely did feel personally abandoned, choosing to use the phrase "left US behind," specifically including seam's own self in the pronoun usage. then seam mentions that even among the king's own troops, some still distantly hope the lightners will return... while smiling. read into that as you will.

now, all this dialogue is very interesting (or not if that isn't your thing), but why would seam be more affected by the abandonment than, say, a card? well, seam happens to be a plush toy. not only that, but one that has clearly been loved to the point of needing many repairs. we've all seen the theories that seam was catti's doll, or toriel's, or whoever's-else's, but what all these have in common is that seam was someone's beloved plushie. to go from being a favorite among lightners, or even one special lightner, to complete isolation from those who gave seam purpose—well, that couldn't have been fun. sure, at first seam had jevil, but that. uh. really did not end well.

by the time we meet seam, poor cat's definitely got some ~abandonment issues~, but these are purposely played off by establishing to us early on that seam does not care about anything. "it makes no difference to me." "that's nothing." etc. seam even encourages us not to buy things from the seap, and why would you need to buy from seam's old wares when there's a music shop? and honestly, the signs point to seam believing that even if the lightners did return, nothing would change or go back to the way it was. to quote seam, "Neither Light nor Dark hold a future for a Darkner in my condition."

anyway if seam does not get All the Happy Endings i am going to replay undertale and stop at the dog room and keep the annoying dog trapped in my inventory forever out of pure spite

[inbarfink]

This is a topic I KINDA talked about before in a different post but it was more focused on speculations regarding the Angel’s Heaven, so I wanted to put in a separate post about my understanding of how the Light vs. Dark balance is related to the themes of free will vs. control. 

When the first Chapter came out, I assumed the Light will be on the side of order, and Dark will be on the side of chaos. Mostly because this is usually how it goes in stories where Light isn’t necessarily good and Darkness isn’t necessarily evil. But also because Light seems to be associated with Hope, while Dark is associated with Dreams. Hopes are a lot more structured, but Dreams are wild and literally anything can happen in them.

Chapter 2 really made me rethink this idea, mostly because of Spamton NEO’s dialogue. Which directly contrasts the “Dark” with freedom.

And after I thought of it, I decided that it did actually make a lot of sense to assume that Light is the Element of Choices (but it include the choice to do bad things as well), while Dark is basically the Element of Railroading (but that includes safe and pleasant railroading.) After all....

All the times we’ve seen Kris free themselves from the SOUL was in the Light World and honestly I kinda suspect that in the Dark World the SOUL is empowered so they wouldn’t be able to tear it out like they do in the Light World Endings.

Out of the main party, Susie is a Lightner and more likely to unknowingly rebel against the rails of the plot, while Ralsei is a Darkner and seems to be intentionally trying to keep everyone ‘on the rails’ as much as possible.

Darkners in general are created with a ‘purpose’ (it seems like it’s either “make the Lightners happy” in general - or maybe they each have a purpose based on the object they were created from, and all the Darkners we’ve seen so far were based mostly on items made to make people happy). Meanwhile, Lightners don’t seem to have any sort of pre-made designation like that. 

In general, the fact that Darkners parallel objects in the Light World and the fact that their pasts are basically retconned into existence once they are created has some strange implications for their agency.

For example, it seems that Spamton lives in dumpsters because his Light World counterpart are a pile of useless spam emails in the recycling bin. So, did Spamton had any chance of ever becoming a [[Big Shot]] to begin with? Was his downfall his own fault, or the fault of his unknown benefactor Probably Gaster? Or was it just bound to happen sooner or later because the Light World Spamton IS in the garbage, with the sapient Dark World Spamton having no ability to change that fate?

The “Angel” seems to be associated with Light, since in the first chapter Father Alvin says “may the Angel's power light your way”. If at least some of the symbolism from Undertale still applies, then the Angel is a being that set people ‘free’.... at least from a certain point of view.

The character with the most ‘angelic’ motifs in the story is Noelle - who is the only character capable of truly killing people in the Dark World. And notably, she (and Kris, and maybe the player) is directly called “Angel” during the Weird Route - which right now is the most meaningful ‘choice’ we’ve had in the Dark World. 

The gameplay is considerably more ‘free’ in the Light World Epilogue of each chapter compared to the main bulk of the game in the Dark World. You can go almost everywhere you want in town, or go to just one place or straight home. 

It even seems that some of the choices you make ‘matters’, maybe??? If you don’t visit Onion in Chapter 1, they won’t show up to tell you a secret in Chapter 2. I think it’s possible the other choices you make (delivering Undyne’s chocolates to Alphys, for example. Or taking Asriel’s five dollars) would also lead to slight branching of the Hometown story later on. 

Most important of all, there’s no SAVE Points in Hometown, and that kinda means you need to have more commitment to your decisions because it’s much harder to save-scum through different dialogue options. So that means the things you choose are more meaningful that way.

SAVE Points are kinda interesting in that way because on one hand they seem to be made of Light (”At times, you see it flickering. The light only you can see.”) and that would make sense, since being able to Literally Manipulate Time and Space obviously gives one more freedom, right? Especially with multiple save files.

And on some level this is true, but also... if Manipulating Time and Space becomes too easy, then what MEANING do these choices have? Does it matter that you’ve been the most pacifistic hero and nicest friend if you can always pop in for the timeline where you’re a remorseless killer who manipulates their closest friend into also becoming a killer? 

I guess there’s two points I’m trying to get here. The first is that there’s a bit of like... Extreme Darkness can lead to Light, Extreme Light can lead to Darkness. The more you constrain people on a set path, the more they yearn to get out, even if it means doing the darkest and most fucked-up shit imaginable just for the chance to go ‘off-script’ (Weird Route) and also it makes the choices they DO have matter to them even more.

Meanwhile, if one has the freedom to do anything, the freedom to do anything they want, than do any of their choices really matter? 

To bring this a bit out of the metaphor and into video game terms; the universe of Deltarune needs a balance between Light and Dark just like the game Deltarune needs a balance between Choices and Story. A world without Choice is constraining and kinda existentially terrifying from an in-universe perspective. But a world that is All the Choices, where the Player can do anything and everything with very little barriers stopping them or consequence afterwards... is soon going to lose all of it’s meaning.

I’m thinking a bit of Jevil in this regard - who kinda reached the same conclusion from the opposite way: because this world is just a game, than none of his choices matter, so that means he can do anything. 

Like, the whole thing with the Bonus Bosses is that they have a ‘Paradoxical Freedom’. Jevil is imprisoned, Spamton NEO is on puppet-strings. Despite being themed after ‘Freedom’, they are visibly not free. And I think that connect with that idea.

And then there’s stuff like how Susie basically ignores the Player’s dialogue choices when she’s ‘controlled’. On a literal level this is railroading, it’s just the game going along a fixed script. But it’s ALSO Susie asserting her freedom over the Player’s will. 

Or on the opposite side of the spectrum, the Weird Route is literally the player shaking off the rails of the Dark World... by totally overriding the will and desires of both Kris and Noelle. The Player cuts off their own puppet-strings by making someone their puppet. 

It’s just... Dark and Light, Story and Choices, Safety and Freedom... they are technically opposites but they are also two sides in the same coin.

The second point I wanted to make, and that is very related to this first point, is that there’s a distinction between “you don’t have a choice” and “your choice don’t matter”. After all, technically... Deltarune has offered you many choices since the beginning. It’s just that they were seemingly inconsequential, overwritten or totally discarded. So the choices ARE there, it’s just that they usually amount to nothing more than a slight change in the cutscene. So they don’t MATTER.

And this is why I think Dark being the element of “Dreams” is related to Dark being the element of Choices That Don’t Matter. Yes, Dreams are wild, Dreams are uncontrollable, in Dreams anything can happen. But nothing that happens in a Dream MATTERS. No choice you make in a Dream truly matters. 

This is kinda what happened at the end of Chapter 2 with Berdly and Noelle. Since Kris and Susie allowed them to believe their adventure in the Dark World was just a Dream... they kinda made it ‘not matter’. Like you can see Susie straggling with the idea, that all the tender moments she had with Noelle and Bredly actually learning some damn humility don’t matter anymore because they think it was just a Dream. (Meanwhile, Weird Noelle tries as hard as she can to convince herself this was all a Dream, because she just want it all to Not Matter).

(Of course I doubt Noelle and Berdly were TOTALLY unaffected by their adventure in the Dark World on a Normal Route. After all, Noelle still tried to check if Susie has a tail and Berdly seems more open to Somewhat Respecting Kris and Susie. It’s just that the main instinct pushing AWAY from these positive changes is “but it was just a Dream, right?”)

Dreams are wonderful things that can offer us wonders and magic and escape from the rougher parts of the world - but Hope is the thing that has the more chance to effect the real world. Hope is a thing that NEEDS Choices That Matter in order for it to come true (again, I can bring up Spamton again, who’s Hopes can not come true because of the very nature of how the Dark World mirrors the Light World), and that is why I think Hope is connected to Light and contrast Dark and Dreams.

Damn I wrote way more than I was expecting too I’m sorry I don’t have a punchier closing conclusion to all of this.

[zarla-s]

yo dawg any thoughts on DR chapter 2 thus far

I SURE DO because BOY there was a lot to unpack in that chapter. I'm still trying to sort out my thoughts about it, I like literally just finished the alt route a few hours ago which just gave me a whole bunch of new info to try and sort through, haha. I’m going to need to sit down and really think about it for a while before I can start spinning things together effectively.

BUT ANYWAY, FOR QUICK SPOILER-FREE THOUGHTS CHAPTER 2 WAS REALLY GOOD AND I LIKED IT MORE THAN CHAPTER 1 TBH I loved the expanded mechanics and the new sense of depth to everything, it gave a much clearer picture of what Deltarune is going to be than Chapter 1 I think. I think I was also more open to it this time since I was prepared for it going in - I got totally blindsided by Chapter 1 and had no idea what was going on or what it meant or if it was a sequel or what, but this time I knew what the deal was so I could just take Chapter 2 on its own merits. Loved the characters and the enemies and the bullet patterns were all really cute, loved it. It all felt really cohesive.

SPOILER THOUGHTS UNDER THE CUT for both the main route and the alt route (I like the name Snowgrave for it but in my head I just keep calling it the alt route, haha)

I’ll just do this as a list because I don’t have the energy to really get in-depth with a lot of it at the moment.

I’m really suspicious of Ralsei. I was suspicious of him before but I’m really suspicious of him now. It’s weird he can walk around in other dark worlds without turning to stone, that there’s a room for Asriel in the Queen’s mansion and not one for him, and VERY weird that he knew exactly what Kris had to do in the real world to bring the other darkners back into the dark world. How did he know that. Also he looked cuter with his hat.

Spamton is great and creepy, I was able to do his battle first try! Which was way better luck than I had with Jevil lol. Although, today I went to try and do it again just to check, and I spared Jevil my first try. :O So maybe Jevil got rebalanced? I dunno, it just seemed a lot easier all of a sudden. ANYWAY, SPAMTON IS GREAT

Spamton has to be ghost related but i’m not sure how yet, I assume Mettaton due to the form and the wings and the name and the recurring Neo motif in his theme, but there was also general ghost motifs in his theme as well and some things don’t add up. It did look like you find the disk in Mettaton Neo’s discarded body, and Seam says it might have belonged to an old Lightner. A lot of ghost connections. What if Spamton is Dess’s ghost

Love Queen and the Tasques, goes without saying I’m sure, all the enemies were so cute. Loved checking on Lancer in my items.

Hugely pleased with the ramped up gay and also Noelle is precious

Kris opening the fountains is an interesting twist. I wonder if they opened the first castle town fountain or not (also, no one else seems to see the castle town door?). It’s weird because there was a door connecting castle town to the card world, and there was no door to the cyberworld. But somehow Ralsei knew how to get there anyway? How did he get there? How could he tell. Ralsei’s up to something. I do not trust him.

Susie’s the best

The Snowgrave route is really creepy in a different way than the murder run in Undertale which I’m very intrigued by, I want to see where that’s going. There are interesting parallels you could draw between Kris controlling Noelle and the player controlling Kris, but again it’s something I’ll have to think more about before it becomes something more coherent. Something something “strength” being achieved by giving up control to someone else, blocking out what they do, just doing whatever they tell you, something something

lol berdly died lol kris just shoving his body in a closet

The Flowey TV at the end is also intriguing, I wonder if Flowey is the one forcing Kris to remove their SOUL and do stuff. I wonder. Kris moves so jerkily without your control and also it seems like it takes a lot of time for Kris to get enough strength or control to move to pull the soul out in the first place. There’s the puppet/string connection that Spamton highlights, but also when he says that even when all the strings were cut, he wasn’t free. It could be that taking out YOUR soul just leaves Kris open to Flowey’s control instead. I dunno. Lot of questions.

Also strange that Kris deliberately opened the front door and turned on the TV before opening the fountain. And that they take their SOUL out pretty regularly, apparently? Toriel doesn’t seem that bothered by Kris spending a ton of time in the bathroom with the water on, anyway.

So Kris opened the fountain in the library at the end of chapter 1, then also went and ate all the pie. Then Kris went out and slashed Toriel’s tires (presumably) and possibly ate all the sugar in her car before opening the fountains. I wonder if there’s a connection between sugar and Kris pulling your soul out to do whatever.

 Ralsei says darkners turn to stone when they’re in a world that’s not their own, Onion says they hear a song from the ocean they can’t remember but they’re sure they’ve heard it before (Mother 1 nod, I see you!):

Just gonna throw this out there.

I spent a bunch of time getting the egg and putting it in Asgore’s fridge and NOTHING, DANG IT

Noelle seems able to hear your voice as the player, or at least a strange terrifying voice that doesn’t seem to be Kris’s. My guess is the player, but if the TV really is Flowey, then maybe it’s him? Questions.

lol throughout the snowgrave route i called noelle my murder girlfriend

By the way you can do the Snowgrave route even if you’ve spared everyone up to that point. You can also start sparing people again right after Noelle leaves. Thus names like Murder run or Genocide run don’t really fit to me. Neither does weird run, weird implies something a lot less... dark? I think Snowgrave is the way to go here. Or alt I guess but that’s pretty vague, although people will probably know what you’re talking about.

I CAN’T BELIEVE I GOT ROBBED OF PAPYRUS AGAIN well no I can believe that, part of me thought that might happen BUT I WAS HOPING

The difficulty level was nice throughout, not too hard and not too easy. Close shaves, but nothing frustrating. I think I actually only died to Berdly and Spamton on the Snowgrave route, come to think of it. NO WAIT I died a lot to the teacups leading up to Spamton’s battle lol but that doesn’t count.

There’s a lot you can make out of Spamton’s dialogue and I don’t have the energy to stitch it all together right now though, haha. What he says in the store about, what was it... a call for you, asking if anyone was there? And then in the Snowgrave route where he says you can call for friends all you want and they won’t answer? An Earthbound nod of course, but still. It makes me wonder where things are going.

(There’s a second thing I want to tie to that but I’ll probably make that a separate post)

Given that Toby said there’d only be one ending and there are routes where Berdly is alive or DEAD, I get the feeling we’re heading for a “rocks fall, everyone dies” ending more than ever. Or an ending where the world of Deltarune is destroyed and becomes Undertale, or something. idk. I’m just speculating.

There’s an explanation for Kris’s saves now! Theories I had about it before are off-base now with new information, haha. So Kris has been saving in every dark world they create, which includes Castle Town. Well, if not them though, they saved over SOMEone’s file when they showed up there. I do wonder why the spade king and Queen didn’t recognize Kris though if they were the one convincing them to create chaos in their kingdoms. Although the video of the fountain being created DID say that there was so much smoke, you couldn’t see who was doing it. Maybe Kris was in disguise.

Spamton says something very weird when he talks about the knight at his store, which makes sense if Kris was actually the knight. I can’t remember it exactly though right now.

Spamton is really insistent on talking to Kris alone.

It could be that Kris is exploring the nature of freedom/control with Noelle during the Snowgrave route since they’re struggling with that themselves. Although the closer glimpses of the player during that route (when she seems to hear you, the player’s voice) make that a bit fuzzy.

It’s interesting that Noelle’s description says she freezes the enemy right off the bat before you do anything. Also she’s really hesitant and resistant about going to Spamton’s shop specifically it seems, and when she’s there she says something that implies “why did you bring me HERE” along with the odd line “there’s no one here, no one at all” and that it’s creepy and weird, but also nostalgic for her. I almost wonder if Noelle had something to do with Dess’s death (I assume Dess is dead from how everyone talks about her). Or if she believes she did, anyway. She could just be nostalgic for the scared feeling like she says to Kris later on a normal route, but I dunno. It’s weirdly specific.

When you fight enemies down with Noelle, it always says “Noelle got stronger” even if Noelle doesn’t kill the enemy with her magic, even though I’m pretty sure her stats don’t change unless you get the ice kill.

I remember when I played the first chapter I wanted to do a murder run immediately afterwards (that’s me! I’m still doing that!) and then as I went through I noticed I wasn’t killing anyone, no matter how hard I tried. They’d always heal themselves or run away until the game went the way it wanted me to, with only minor differences. To be honest, I found it kind of frustrating. It really did feel like control was being taken away from me, particularly because it presented the option and then did nothing with it. Why let me fight if it doesn’t do anything? Why harp so much on making good choices if I can’t make any other ones? What’s the point?

Then in chapter 2, it turns out oh hey, fighting will make you lose recruits, and it’s like alright, that makes more sense. But still I felt railroaded into this sort of fluffy, feel-good kind of path. Even when I fought everyone off on a normal route, it mostly went the same except with a few different bits of dialogue. Again, it was weirdly frustrating. It felt like something was missing.

And then, you get Noelle. And then it turns out you DO have a way to kill people, after all this time. NOW you have a chance to take control and stop doing what the game clearly wants you to do, and what everyone is telling you to do. You’ve found a loophole! YOU can’t kill anyone, but NOELLE can. There was a definite kind of contrary rebelliousness during that run for me, a kind of “you can’t stop me from doing this or ruining what you wanted me to do” kind of feeling, which I assume is meant to mirror how Kris feels all the time when your soul is in them. I didn’t see it as a need or instinct to level Noelle (no one in the game can even get levels through exp! There’s no point! No one’s important stats ever change except through equipment!), just a realization that you found a loophole in what you’re supposed to do - or who you’re supposed to be. Noelle’s just a tool for that, which Spamton even calls you out about in his final battle by asking if you want to “use” her again when you call for her.

AND SHE COMES WHEN YOU CALL HER TOO HOW DOES SHE DO THAT

Also interesting: when you call for your friends in that route to help you, they don’t come/can’t hear you, and Spamton says it’s your fault. If you call for your weapon though (Noelle) she comes almost immediately. You don’t even have to call her, you whisper her name once and she’s there.

There’s a lot going on in the route is the jist, haha.

I HOPE ASGORE IS DOING OKAY ;_; HE HAS TO BEG SANS FOR FREE PICKLES

I also noticed that when Sans is like “oh you keep your flowers under glass huh, like that movie” Asgore is like “yes it’s... very similar to that movie” with a shifty look. The flower in Beauty and the Beast symbolized the prince’s life. Asgore what are you up to. Did you get up to murdering antics again. He DOES say he talks to the flowers a lot.

I think the dark worlds are getting stronger, since in Chapter 1 everyone went home mostly fine, but in Chapter 2 injuries seem to carry over. Berdly freaking dies lol in the Snowgrave route, but also if you fight the Queen during that battle where Berdly has a wire in his face, he’ll eventually pull off the wire himself and in the process burn up his arm all crispy. Then in the real world, his arm is paralyzed! So things are definitely carrying over from one to the other.

Queen has to be related to Susie’s mom issues. Ralsei says darkners are meant to serve Lightners and follow them and bring them happiness - darkners might be a kind of Silent Hill thing where they reflect what Lightners want or fear (Noelle wants her mom to love and prioritize her happiness over everything, perhaps, or is just afraid of how smothering and controlling she can be). Also sad that the Ambulance enemies show up right after you get Noelle. :( And Queen mentions Noelle making a lot of sad and strange searches - I assume searches about whatever illness her dad has or how to deal with grief or guilt.

I thought maybe Spade King was Susie related thusly because he talks a lot about being a Bad Guy, but on second thought, his main motivation is resentment about being discarded and forgotten by Lightners and the people who used to give him purpose. Maybe he’s a reflection of Kris’s issues about Asriel leaving. Just speculating.

For some reason I pictured Asriel as a like football bro due to all his trophies but it sounds like he’s just a wussy as Ralsei is lol. Which makes sense. Ralsei was always kind of worryingly accepting of the abuse you dish out to him, he’ll forgive Kris of practically anything (I gave him an S. Poison and he was like OW! I mean, uh, thanks Kris! Haha!), he’s so desperate for Kris’s validation and affection. Asriel seems to have a sort of similar tendency in constantly going to confession for KRIS’S sins and sobbing about them FOR you. I wonder if Ralsei is just Asriel’s dark world form in disguise, thus why he hid his face for so long from you and changed his name.

(If Ralsei is Asriel in disguise then that makes his behavior towards his sibling PRETTY WEIRD tbh)

Kris is such a weird edgy kid. I worry about them, haha. I don’t think it’s as simple as Kris being an antagonist to the player or the player being an antagonist to Kris. It’s definitely interesting that Kris is making the fountains and the player is the one sealing them (it specifically says its your soul doing it). At first glance, making more fountains does seem like it’ll plunge the world into darkness and chaos, but then again... Ralsei’s the one telling you that, and who knows. Maybe he has his own agenda. There was a lot in this chapter about how the dark world is better than the light one.

If the dark world versions are meant to reflect the lightner’s souls or innermost desires or idealized visions of themselves, then Kris’s soul/desire/vision of themselves is... a corpse-blue dead knight. Bit worrying.

Awful lot of scarves in chapter 2 that pushed for Ralsei to attack people. A lot of attack uppers for him. Even Spamton’s item is a weapon for him that mentions abandoning healing. I know Jevil dropped a weapon for Susie too, but I dunno.

The fact you can fuse the Thorn Ring with a Pure Crystal (wherever that is) to make a creepy sword makes me think Noelle is going to come back again. Unless you’re supposed to get the thorn ring and then take it off her and abort the run at Berdly, which you could do I suppose. Still, it makes me think you and Noelle are going to keep going down that path together.

(What if the Pure Crystal is frozen Berdly? D: Or even an item you get off of Noelle if you kill her?)

Also very interesting that the ending credit theme is a glitchy version of the first chapter end theme. Don’t Forget was reprising constantly through the first chapter, but only showed up rarely in the second one. I only remember hearing a snip of it once, come to think of it, and I can’t remember where.

Boy there was a lot of shipteasing in pretty much every direction, wasn’t there?

ANYWAY THAT’S ALL I GOT RIGHT NOW I’m going to keep thinking about it though.

[bigshotburgers]

an incredibly cursed, unhinged crack theory: “mike” is just burgerpant’s darkworld persona

okay before you take my keyboard and drawing tablet away... i can explain. kinda. just bear with me. it’s gonna be kind of rambly and crazy, so just uhhh... buckle up i guess.

why does burgerpants seem to tolerate his job and co-workers slightly more in deltarune than undertale (besides the being underground part)? why does he seem (marginally) more satisfied with life despite the fact that he is working a dead-end job at a fast food joint, while all of his other friends (or friend, if it’s just asriel) go off and do stuff with their lives and follow their dreams? why is HE not pursuing his dreams of being an actor?

because he DOES get to pursue his dreams. in a tv-themed dark world! as “mike”, a gameshow host! escapist fantasy heck yeah!

(a LOT more explanation below the break + cursed ms paint doodles)

dark worlds essentially serve as a form of escapism for lightners, as we’ve seen in chapters 1 and 2.

now, what if burgerpants stumbled across a “TV-themed” dark world on accident? what if he suddenly got the chance to accomplish and be everything he wanted? he’d freaking love it, that’s what. it’s the PERFECT form of escapism for someone like him.

and suddenly, it becomes a regular thing for him. sure, he works a dead end job, but after work he gets to be a BIG SHOT! 

he quickly climbs his way up through the ranks of darkner society mainly based on the fact that he’s a lightner. he gives the tv world darkners a purpose, after all. since, you know, ralsei mentions that the darkners’ whole purpose is to “serve” lightners.

i’d like to think that burgerpants is completely unaware of the whole “purpose” thing. though it’s up to you i guess.

i’m undecided on whether the darkners are aware burgerpants is a lightner. i’d like to think that his dark world costume includes a TV head that hides his face, so no darkners figure out he’s a lightner. i mean, it worked with Noelle’s disguise, right?

 either way, burgerpants becomes super successful. “mike” becomes burgerpant’s darkword persona, who probably goes by “Mic” or something. and “mike” gets his own gameshow, probably stars in commercials, becomes an actor or something, etc. he makes it big!

at some point after spamton makes it [[ big ]] too, burgerpants and spamton team up for commercials and product tie ins. i mean, it’s been established that darkners are aware of other dark worlds (queen and king), and may even be able to travel between them. so it’s not impossible to assume that mike and/or spamton were able to travel to each other’s dark worlds or something.

at some point, mike leaves spamton in the dust. although i have no idea what the reason could be, mike being a lightner could explain why spamton was so utterly devastated by mike’s abandonment / betrayal. it’s probably the same reason why lancer’s dad, the King, felt so betrayed and angry by being abandoned by the lightners. “mike” gave spamton purpose, and he lost it when mike/burgerpants abandoned him.

(this would probably hit harder if spamton never realized burgerpants was a lightner in the first place. spamton just finds himself feeling completely empty after being abandoned by burgerpants, pushing him closer to the edge of his sanity. plus, it’d be interesting for burgerpants to hide his face behind a “TV” mask.)

mike/burgerpants probably doesn’t really care too much about spamton and moves on with his life. he’s having a great time, after all.

anyways, this burgerpants would cling to this dark world like his life depends on it, and would stop ANYONE who would try and close the fountain permanently. *cough cough* KRIS *cough cough*. and badda-bing badda-boom, burgerpants is the villain / boss of chapter 3.

now, i know what you’re thinking: lightners can only leave dark worlds by closing the fountains, right? well, only HUMAN SOULS can close fountains (like kris’ soul). so it could be entirely possible for monster souls to be able to leave through fountains or something, but be unable to close them. or maybe burgerpants figured out how to open a dark fountain and just opens a new one to the tv dark world whenever he wants to visit.

this theory / weird, cursed au has a ton of holes in it, so take it with the tiniest grain of salt, lol. just think of it as some very wacky au, if it helps.

here are some unhinged, toby-fox-forbidden cursed ms paint chicken scratch i made while this idea was rotting in my brain. plus some more cursed thoughts:

[starlightshore]

knight talk and assorted theories

// deltarune spoilers dr spoilers chapter 2 spoilers

Originally this post was called

How Poncho human is relevant I swear to god

but then i derailed to other topics and discussions about the knight

note the hair tuff below. this is a consistent hair design.* (the original UT one is likely older before this design choice was chosen, though I added it in for clarity)

see how it matches with the head mage?

the lone human knight has more wavy hair that seems to flow in the air.

also compare this above image to the in-game one.

note how the other humans are removed from the image. I assume this is for reading clarity -but it’s also kinda odd isn’t it?

it’s humanity’s seven best mages who sealed monsterkind. and yet a knight and a mage are center-stage and the only ones visible? The poncho human keeps being shown again and again -and granted, they serve as a nice short hand for all of humanity but... it seems too convenient to me. Especially with the seemingly deliberate choice to make the mage share the same hair (but longer of course). Why bother doing that if not to imply they’re the same character?

Why are they by a knight? The history only mentions the 7 mages. Why is only one seemingly casting the barrier spell?

Knight seems to be more of a Title? Potentially? This line is from the Weird route (snowgrave or snow mercy, whatever you want to call it). And logically, Kris had to be taught to learn how to make a dark fountain.

we do not have any exact wording that implies Jevil, Spamton, Queen or Spade King met the knight in person, only that they met.

Spamton met the knight and talked on the phone. Unsure if they meet in person... except with jevil? He wouldn’t have a phone. there’s no phones in chapter 1. this isn’t to say the knight couldn’t communicate another way, but it’s kinda safe to assume...?

I think Kris is the New Knight. having (probably) made cyber city and now the next darkworld.

But I don’t think they’re the original knight. The queen and Seam know of darkners who weren’t in their world -implying at some point, darkners could meet and talk with other darkners who aren’t of their shared world. Despite... how doing so would turn you into statues.

Seam and Jevil have a history that predates the game. Likely, even a long time ago. How can they have a history if the fountain is new? How could Spade know Queen? Did these darkners exist and be sentient before they had a fountain? the fountains create their physical forms but that isn’t to say their consciousness. Do they exist in the will/minds of the lightners before taking form?

Seam also talks about the origins of darkners. They’ve been abandoned by lightners before.

Notably, The queen is under the impression the knight is gone.

And while, yes, I think Kris is the one who made cyber world I don’t think they’re the original knight. surely, for the history of darkners to make sense, there had to be an original knight. But... the most recent knight had to have been somewhat recent. There’s a time frame of darkners existing in the first place, and then the knight talking to Jevil, and the new fountains being made.

It really doesn’t make sense for kris to be the one to talk to Spamton. They’re a puppet too.

I... really don’t have answers. There’s this emphasis of humans being shown as the lightner with Ralsei. It makes me wonder if this is a human Ralsei knew? (is he a darkner? there’s a lot that doesn’t add up to himself. how he knows so much about how darkners work and kris + susie’s names and the light world school layout.) Could Ralsei have known Poncho from a long time ago? (maybe from being that old, or through the oddity of shared consciousness before gaining form the darkners might have had???) It’s just not adding up to me.

And obviously another detail is that Kris’ darkworld form is a knight. The weirdly placed knight in the barrier creation could be important to the original creation of darkworld.

Alternatively, it could be gerson and alvin. Alvin is deeply religious and it seems the Angel is the enemy for darkners -they need to banish the Angel’s heaven (along with the titans). Gerson says he got his story ideas from dreams, and this is how Noelle and Berdly reason their adventure to be. Undyne laughs kris off for telling the truth -how else would anyone react to such a silly thing?

Gerson could of created the darkworld with his stories? It’s just.. so obvious to me that they have to be connected somehow. Imagination is what darkners are, and the angel is connected to the calamity. the two fit the bill perfectly.

so, either humans are the originators (as they’re often depicted in ralsei’s lullabies and continued depictions) or its gerson and his son. Gerson makes more sense because of the connections, and with his death it could be seen as “abandoning” the darkners. I wouldn’t be surprised if we read a Hammer series book to find specific darkner references at some point lmao...

[poppubaburu]

2 types of Spamton I see: rarely still or spazz. Also, there’s a narrow slit under my bathroom/restroom door + this is the scenario I pic almost every single Spamton mood time.
Ralsei: (sighs) He does this every Saturdays. (since this was originally posted on Twitter on a Saturday) 
________________________________
Spamton: (struggling) LET ME IN!!1!!1!
(glitches in)
Spamton: LOOK! KRIS! KRIS! [KREESPY KREM DONUTs! Limited Season holiday flavors! Get a dozen for—] I can just glitch inside!
Kris: (unholy high pitched screams) I’m fighting for my life in here!!!
_________________________________


Headcanons moments to my made GIF above. Story time again for you all, Deltarune enjoyers!!!
I have moments where I believe and imagine this is the scenario in POV or Kris’s POV when having Spamton in your home. Just like a puppy or kitten or any other pet, or animal, of your preference being awfully needy that day. 

As soon as he grows a great liking to ya, he will bee line you everywhere:
even to the mailbox, imitate the birds like a seagull or crows crowing outside, but instead of cawing, he fails at it and sounds like a customized car alarm as he yells “DEALS! DEALS!” in sync to the birds. He’ll come to your [cungadero] and claim SHOTGUN or DRIVER. (You would have to carry his plush butt off your car’s driver seat to the passenger seat next to the wheel instead)…but he would have to go to the back seat because laws of required height in said vehicle…sad… 

As long there’s no PoPos, he should be fine in the shotgun seat next to [insert Lightner/Darkner companion here]. He’ll hide in the kitchen pantry (has staying in the dumpster withdrawals), to the plastic clothes organizer to take ONLY the left sock and shoes, and maybe even follow you into the shower…no..Spamton! Stop. That’s weird.


If left with Ralsei in Castle Town, he does what he wants when he wants. He has this chameleon effect to do so since a lot of the Darkners took a liking to Ralsei. I mean even the Swatchlings found admiration to the goat prince. Ralsei manage, or ordinates, the town for each and every characters’ new home now that the two fountains have been sealed. Old being a [BIG SHOT] habits still linger on him and he’ll imitate/impersonate when he feels like it. If he loses a dare or bet with his frats of the Addisons, he would have to model outfits based on Undertale, Lightner, and major Darkner character outfits for the whole day. He doesn’t seem to mind it too much. Other times, he would go back (interchange) as a glasses DEALMAKER form, stick with Ralsei, and not want to be pestered by them too much, mainly by Pink Addison. Yellow and Orange Addison are tolerable to him. He’s most patient with Blue Addison, but between the two, cannot and rarely seem to find a balanced and resonated wavelength of conversation. Blue is more conservative and Spamton is well more eccentric.

[lynxgriffin]

DELTARUNE Chapter 2 Thoughts!!!

WOOO OKAY I stayed up WAY too late trying to finish Deltarune Chapter 2 last night!! It took me awhile because I suck at video games, but I finally did it!

While I normally type up commentary as I play first time, I didn’t get the chance to do that here, so I’ll get down all my general thoughts here!

Unspoilery thoughts: loved it, knew I would, will need to replay soon to see what all I missed, and am excited for whatever’s next!

SPOILERS FOR CHAPTER 2 under the cut!!

(These are just as I think of them, not in any particular order!)

Okay overall I can see why this took two years and a much larger team to complete, the second chapter is SO much more expansive and heavy on scene-specific animations! It all looks SO GOOD

I already love Susie but now I love her even more, her expressions were SO GOOD

Susie has a (little nubby) tail confirmed?? That’s adorable

Okay this game is definitely reading the chapter 1 data, which I find interesting because I didn’t obtain it through Steam last time

But like, I gave the “Susie eats chalk” response to Noelle last time, and in chapter two she gave Susie the box of chalk, so awwww!

Also I missed Onionsan in my initial computer playthrough, so they didn’t show up this time, just got a moment of Susie and Kris sitting by the river together!

I find it REALLY interesting that while Ralsei is a Darkner, apparently he can jump around to other Dark Worlds whereas other Darkners like Lancer and Rouxls can’t so much…hmmm!

It was so nice to see everyone filling out the town now, though!

Noooo Susie probably doesn’t have her own room at home, awwww

Kris just casually jumping up to the classroom and bringing everyone back tho, perfect

Was right on there being multiple dark worlds in other locations, but honestly that part’s the least surprising to me, that always seemed like a pretty standard path to take!

The werewires were creepy and great; difficult to battle tho

QUEEN IS MY NEW FAVORITE

EVERY LINE OF HERS WAS A+

I’m so glad that I didn’t really go anywhere with Jevil’s line about the Queen in PT; nothing I came up with could’ve topped Queen being an absolute acid trip of an antagonist in this chapter

NOELLE SO SWEET

Her lil’ robot disguise! Her being afraid of mice at first!

I kinda wish we could have had her in the party more? She was super useful as a party member, honestly!

But sadly I guess we’re not gonna get more than the three-person party, awww

B E R D L Y

I cannot believe Berdly basically became incel Falco but also had a sympathetic backstory

Like I laughed a lot at all of Berdly’s expressions and dialogue while also going BERDLY YOU ARE THE WORST

Noelle’s WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? WHAT? part = A+

I feel like Queen’s relationship with Noelle definitely had some uncomfy parallels with probably how she is dealing with her real mom

I AM NOT GOOD AT PUNCH-OUT AND THERE WAS A LOT OF THAT

I somehow missed the part where Susie is wearing Ralsei’s glasses??? Where is this

Also in general there was a LOT of puzzles and gameplay in the overworld map, which I was bad at but was also very cool

KRIS GET THE BANANA

The dolphin pop-up ads…

I DID NOT LIKE THE SPAMTON GUY

DISCOMFORT THE WHOLE TIME

Apparently he’s also the secret boss for this chapter?? That’s at least if the soundtrack is anything to go by. Maybe I’ll go back and try it on another playthrough, but aaaaagggghhhg

SO MANY GOOD SUSELLE MOMENTS

MY LIL SHIPPER HEART HAS A NICE SERVING AND WANTS MORE

The whole deal with the ferris wheel conversation and just awwwwuuuuuuh

Needs more Susiezilla now too (I picked the “something romantic” option because of course)

MORE PLZ, LET’S DIG DEEPER HERE

Also I cannot believe Susie has (at least) two people crushing on her and is just totally oblivious to it

There’s SO Many interesting HMM moments with Kris and that definitely included the entire acid tunnel of love scene with Kris and Ralsei

Interrupted of course by an appropriately silly Rouxls battle

But man the more we see (or often DON’T see) of Ralsei the more intriguing it gets

LET NOELLE RIDE IN THE TEACUP RIDE WITH SUSIE

I just knew going back to get that chest without Noelle would be something dumb

OKAY I ended up dying a lot to 1) the Mauswheel, and 2) the color-changing butlers?? So I ended up having to do the whole sequence with annoying dog blasting through everything in his path multiple times

I DID feel bad for Berdly during that boss battle where he was werewired; that was nice and body horror-ish

That said… “I NEED A KISS FROM A GAMER GIRL”

The giant mecha boss battle absolutely kicked my ass, though

Like it WAS badass but that took me a LOT of tries to get through

My thrash machine was very GUN’S

Overall the difficulty curve was definitely stepped up from chapter 1!

LOTS MORE DARK WORLD AND KNIGHT LORE FROM RALSEI HERE

And lots of talk about Noelle being pretty important to it, too!

I’m glad I got to bring Susie on the walkaround this time around town!

I AM GOING TO BE YOUR WACKY ROOMMATE NOW

King and Queen’s entire conversation was so hilarious

King just slides over to suck on that sweet, sweet giant hamster water bottle

BUNKER STILL BEIN SUSPICIOUS

Aww the pizzeria is not a creepy mascot Chuck-E-Cheese’s style, tho

Confirmation that Gerson was Alvin’s father! And I feel like there’s a lot we’re missing there, too

Still not allowed to see Papyrus…

Catti’s parents…

I wasn’t expecting this at all, but it feels like they may be introducing way more Lightners to the Dark World with each chapter, since both Noelle and Berdly ended up there?

And if that’s the case, I feel like it’s hinting that Catti and/or Jockington may be next

SUSIE STAYING AT KRIS’S PLACE FOR A SLEEPOVER WAS SO SWEET

IMMEDIATELY UNDERCUT BY KRIS GOING FERAL AGAIN

Like I dunno the whole scenario somehow managed to be both REALLY sinister and very funny at once??

Susie and Toriel are busy laughing and making a pie together, meanwhile Kris just sneaks the hell out and slashes Toriel’s tires because it’s KNIVES OUT TIME

Please let Susie watch more giant monster (and giant human) movies with her friends, she needs this

THAT SAID, THAT ENDING

HMM HMM HMMMMMMMMMM

SO THIS SEEMS TO BE INDICATING THAT KRIS IS THE KNIGHT

Which like…is in fact making SOME KIND OF SENSE in my head overall, but I definitely need more context to see how exactly

Like I’m all “THIS FEELS RIGHT BUT I DON’T KNOW WHY, I NEED MOOOORE”

Considering Ralsei’s reaction to Noelle and Berdly trying to make a new fountain, this definitely seems to be setting up some kind of future confrontation between Kris and Ralsei, which! HMMMM

I THINK IT’S TIME FOR THIS GIF AGAIN

Basically I HAD A GRAND TIME, I NEED TO REPLAY, EXCITED FOR THE REST WHENEVER IT COMES

[lancerious]

King lol

YUUUUS I was hoping someone would ask about King! I have a fair few things to say about him, hehe...

This is sorta canon already, as a few of King's face sprites do show this, but I think King has a couple scars on his face. Whether they're from when he battled the other kings or he got them as a result of his battle with Kris, Susie, and Ralsei, he has scars on his face.

King and Queen divorced when Lancer was about two or three years old, maybe four. This way, Lancer is old enough to know who his mother is, but not necessarily old enough to have a true bond with her or know her extremely well. Lancer calls all of his parental figures "Dad" in some way, and by the end of Chapter 2, Lancer is calling Queen "Girldad" instead of just "Mom" or "Mother".

King was, at one point or another, a truly good father to Lancer. I do not care what some people in the UT/DR fandom say. I will stand behind this opinion/piece of lore until the day I die. I mean, who gave Lancer his bike? Rouxls Kaard? Rouxls Kaard doesn't strike me as the type who would gift Lancer a bike. Rouxls Kaard is nice to Lancer, sure, and he may seem to like Lancer and actively care for him, but still. Another possibility is that it was Queen, but ehhh...I'm not too sure about her either. We know very little about King's backstory. It's entirely possible that he treated Lancer as a true son and gifted him his bike.

I think King was temporarily controlled by the Knight during his boss fight in Chapter 1. If King was not ever controlled by the Knight, he at least has some strong connection to them. He literally praises the Knight during his battle. He is the only Darkner who has done so, at least so far. Call me crazy, but I believe King will rebel against the Knight by the end of the game. I don't have any reason as to why King would do this, but I'm sure Lancer will have something to do with it.

King may or may not know some of the Lightners from Hometown. I saw a post someone made about how a few Lightners were aware of the Dark World long before Kris, Susie, Noelle, and Berdly came along, and it definitely could be a possibility. We don't know how long the lifespans of Darkners are. Since they're based off of objects from Hometown, they could be centuries old as far as we know.

Going back to Lancer, King, and the Knight for a minute, I don't think King was a horrible father to Lancer at all. I believe the Knight had some say in imprisoning the other kings and having King himself rule with an iron fist, but even then, King was still not a horrible father to Lancer. There are some subtle things in the game that hint at this. And besides, if King was as horrible of a father as some make him out to be, Lancer would likely be much more willing to let Susie, Kris, and Ralsei meet King and knock some sense into him. But Lancer is not like this at all. He's the complete opposite. He only lets Susie, Kris, and Ralsei free once he is fully convinced everything will turn out okay.

Before the other kings were locked up, King got along decently with them. I wouldn't say they were best buddies, but they had to at least tolerate one other, since they were all ruling the Dark World together at one point. I think Jevil went insane and was imprisoned when all four kings were ruling together.

Speaking of the other kings, I wouldn't be surprised if King knew them ever since they were all kids. Granted, we know absolutely nothing about King's childhood, so this is more of a headcannon than simply lore, but I think this has some possibility.

King knows some of the Darkners from Cyber World. He obviously knows about Queen lol, but he could know of a few others as well. Tasque Manager is one possibility, as she is aware of Jevil. I think all Dark Worlds are connected together in some fashion.

That's all I can think of for now. I may have more lore ideas/opinions, but this is what you'll get right now. Thanks for the suggestion ^-^!

[mymarifae]

I’m the Rouxls guy! I’m very happy you appreciated my lil thoughts- I would gladly share more. Here’s a little one- I thought Lancer was the real “prince from the dark” of the prophecy in Chapter 1. He plays the same party join theme that Susie does, while Ralsei never did. When alongside the party he stood in the same horizontal position as Ralsei- as if he was displaced from where he should be. Seems a bit less likely now with Castle Town, but it’s still a theory I haven’t heard anywhere else.

oh oh oh oh see now this is an interesting concept. and i don’t think the existence of castle town necessarily mitigates its likelihood

see, i’m not convinced the fountain in the supply closet existed before the one in the abandoned classroom like ralsei says. i don’t think this means ralsei is a liar - if this is the case and lancer is supposed to be the prince from the prophecy, i think what happened is ralsei was lied to. it’s just - lancer’s comment about being the “teardrop-headed kid from the legend” has always stood out to me. like yeah he could be talking about this visual

[ID: one of the sepia-toned visuals from ralsei’s legend in chapter 1. on the left is a human lightner standing under a sun; they are holding a spear. on the right is a darkner that resembles lancer standing under a moon. they have a big smile on their face. end ID.]

but that’s kind of really fucking odd ?? because these visuals are presented to us, the player, not the in-game characters. like ralsei is literally just talking. lancer should not know about these pictures, so to me it sounds a lot more like he’s saying he’s someone mentioned in the words of the prophecy. aka, the prince from the dark

of course that could just be something spade king told him, too. many possibilities here, and i don’t think we have enough information to pinpoint it either way just yet!!

but i will say. thinking about it...? the assumption that castle town’s fountain existed before the old classroom’s is kind of not believable. it’s in a supply closet. something that people are constantly opening and going through. noelle apparently saw the inside of it recently enough to remember that there’s a box of chalk in there. realistically, the closet’s fountain would have been discovered very quickly, unless it was opened like literally the night before. meanwhile, a fountain could have existed in the old classroom for years and no one would have been the wiser. the door was probably locked, and if you looked through the little window on the door and saw nothing but darkness, that would check out, because the lights would be off!

and like yeah. the way time passes in dark worlds is strange and we don’t fully understand it yet - like we know cyber world’s fountain was opened only a few hours before the lightner kids stumbled into it, and yet, to queen and everyone else there, it’s like it has existed for decades. it’s really confusing and again, we just don’t have the necessary information to make sense of it with only 2 chapters of the game to go off of. so idk, maybe the night before the game begins the fountain in the supply closet was opened, and a few minutes later the one in the classroom was opened, and from the dark world’s perspective, a few minutes is a few years ?

however. if we’re supposed to believe that the fountain in the supply closet has existed for a substantial amount of time from the light world’s perspective and the one in the old classroom was JUST opened the night before the game starts, then??? this doesn’t make any fucking sense. simple as that <3 if it were anywhere but the supply closet, then yeah sure i guess. but...

we also have to consider the fact that castle town and the ???????? area before it are like. empty. the absolute barest bones of existence. and in chapter 1, the town is literally just some paper cutouts

[ID: castle town as it appears in chapter 1. the most important thing to note is that the edges of town are curved, like folded paper. end ID.]

there’s no people except ralsei which is... ? this is a supply closet, so there should be objects that turn into darkners and like, actual buildings, right?? but no. so unless the supply closet has been empty all this time except for paper, dust, and kris’s old headband, something is Up with this dark world’s fountain. in order to become more real, it requires... the power of other dark worlds and darkners. we’ve only seen two other dark worlds so far, but the card kingdom and cyber world can sustain themselves just fine. you’d think the opposite would be true, considering ralsei says this is a fountain of Pure Darkness, indicating that it is more powerful than the others. like if that were really true, i don’t think it’d need to be built up this way .

like i’ve said before, i think lancer and rouxls turning into stone in cyber world has a lot less to do with darkners not being able to exist in other dark worlds and a lot more to do with the fact that their dark fountain is permanently gone