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flying-mochis · 3 months ago

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I just finished the Silmarillion so now it's time for me to loose my mind trying to discern the timeline changes in Rings of Power

mostly I was trying to figure out which "war" it was that Celeborn went missing in

but first I wanted to ground myself by figuring out when Finrod died- except that also isn't clear...

This is a very long, unedited stream of consciousness post, so I'll put it under Keep Reading. I also didn't really fact check any of this just going off my recent memory of just reading the Silmarillion so- If I got stuff wrong...woops

TLDR: Though Finrod originally dies in the Silmarillian during the Beren and Luthien, I think the RoP writers have changed his death to be sometime after the defeat of Morgoth as he's hunting Sauron. I think Celeborn went missing sometime before Finrod died, either in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (before the Fall of Doriath) or in the War of Wrath (the final defeat of Morgoth). Ultimately who knows but I'm excited to see what they do :)

In the Silmarillian, Finrod dies around late year 400 in the 1st Age protecting Beren in Of Beren and Luthien. He is killed by Sauron, as Sauron throws them in like a pit of death thingy.

but in Rings of Power, when Galadriel is giving exposition in the beginning, she basically says 'Then Morgoth was drafted, but Sauron continued to cause problems, and my brother vowed to hunt him down, then he died.' So it sounds like RoP Finrod survived the War of Wrath against Morgoth, but then died hunting Sauron afterwards.

This change would call into question how the events of Beren and Luthien played out in the RoP timeline- I guess it's not necessary for Finrod to die into order for that story to still have worked? Like maybe Luthien saved both of them or maybe Finrod never went with them. But...Part of the fall of Doriath in Hurin getting Finrods fancy necklace from Mim the dwarf after he's taken over Finrod's Kingdome in his absence- so if Finrod survived up to the fall of Doriath and past that- how would that work? I'm sure it could, there are ways to work around it so the story can still play out with those changes- or maybe they changed more major parts of the story like the fall of Doriath! That would be bold but not out of the question.

Maybe it's also possible that Finrod did still die during the Beren and Luthien story but that just happened after the defeat of Morgoth? IDK if that makes sense, because then how would Thingol have gotten the silmarill that leads to the fall of Doriath and all that stuff with Earendil and Elwing-? that has a lot more continuity changes so less likely.

Ok, moving on from Finrod. His death is at least canon from the Silmarillion, but Celeborn going missing is not. Or at least, it isn't mentioned. But one thing about Galadriel and Celeborn is that they were retconned into the story after most of the Silmarillion was written, so their presence it is extremely spotty and sometime inconsistent. It's basically mentioned that they fall in love when Galadriel and her brothers go to Doriath and she stays with him in Doriath while Finrod finds his kingdom, Nargothrond. Then she's mentioned talking to Melian like once after that right before the Dagor Bragollach (one time Morgoth surprise attacks a bunch of elf cities) and then...They basically disappear for the rest of the book until it starts talking about the rings of power in the 2nd Age-

So...There's already a lot of missing spots in there story. That's one of the reasons I think it's cool they made Galadriel a protagonist in RoP, because what she's doing in those times is very vague, though more so in the 1st Age than the 2nd- but her character could still shed some light on what she was doing then- Especially when Celeborn is introduced, cuz that's gonna require some background explanations.

So that's all just to provide the context that there is barely any context for what those two were doing before RoP takes place.

Another note about possible timelines for Celeborn going missing is its relation to Finrod's death. This is not confirmed, but I've always worked with the assumption that Celeborn went missing before Finrod died. This is based on some factors- such as Galadriel's seemingly more cheery nature when she calls him a "silver clam" before he goes off to battle---This doesn't sound like the traumatized, hardened Galadriel we know from her response to Finrod's death. Also, as other's have pointed out, if Finrod had died before Celeborn went to war and Galadriel had already become a warrior, why wouldn't she have gone to war with Celeborn? It's possible they were just going to different locations, but I don't think she would chide him to not join the fight is she was also doing so.

Running with that assumption- If Finrod did die saving Beren as he did in the Silmarillion, that means Celeborn would've gone missing in some battle before then, maybe the Dagor Bagollach. This would mean he would have missed out all everything with Beren and Luthien, everything with Turin, and everything else with the fall of Doriath at the hands of dwarfs and elves. Which I think would be a shame. There is still conflict in having missed out on a significant tragedy, but I think having him witness all those tragedies would be more interesting- and his bitterness towards dwarfs would be more understandable if he was physically there to witness their betrayal and slaughter of his people.

As I've said, its possible and probably likely that they'll change it so Finrod died much later, and this is another one for my reasons for thinking that. Aside from the other plot holes that creates, Finrod dying after the defeat of Morgoth opens up to possibilities for which battle Celeborn went missing in, so I'll continue with that assumption.

So, let's start with what Rings of Power canon we know. Not a lot, but in Celeborn's one mention in season 1, Galadriel says "When he went to [the War], I chided him." So he didn't go missing on some personal quest or whatever, he specifically went off to fight in "the war". One issue this raises is that Celeborn is from Doriath, and Doriath doesn't give a fuck. Doriath does not send any of its people off to any battles in the Silmarillion until it starts falling apart. The closest we get to Doriath elves fighting is when they hunt down the dwarves that killed Thingol and then defend themselves from the dwarves and the sons of Feanor.

One way to get around this could be making it so Celeborn and Galadriel left Doriath at some point to operate on their own. Maybe they went to live with Finrod in Nargothrond (I think it is mentioned that Galadriel stayed with Finrod there for a while, but Celeborn isn't mentioned? And I don't remember if that's in the Silmarillion or one of the unfinished tales- which are more subject to flexible canon). In which case, Celeborn could've gone off with Finrod to one of the battles- This is an interesting idea as it could show Galadriel and Celeborn being more independent and maybe dissenting from Thingol after his sus decisions with Beren and Luthien. The next battle after that story would be the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the unsuccessful battle with Morgoth right before the Fall of Doriath. The problem with him going missing in that battle, again, would be him missing out on all the drama of the Fall of Doriath.

The second explanation for Celeborn going to war would be that he goes to fight after the Fall of Doriath. It makes sense that he would be more willing to fight after seeing the destruction of his people, even if that wasn't directly at the hands of Morgoth. Galadriel's joking disposition may not make as much sense in a setting after her husband home was destroyed and his family was slaughtered- but maybe everything still felt lighter back then as long as they were together. The most likely battle he went missing in after that would then be the War of Wrath itself, the final defeat of Morgoth.

Another possibility is he went missing during the Fall of Doriath, but that wasn't much of war as it was a siege, and I feel like Galadriel would have at least tried to help out in some way in those circumstances.

Overall, the two most likely battles I see him going missing in are the Nirnaeth Arnoediad (the 2nd to last attack on Morgoth) or the War of Wrath (the final defeat of Morgoth). The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, or some earlier battle, may make more sense for Galadriel to not go Celeborn as they hadn't experienced the tragic loss of Doriath yet, but I guess the same could be said for her not going with Finrod later.

I think I prefer him at least surviving up to the War of Wrath, as that means he was around to see the Fall of Doriath, and experience all the ~fun~ trauma of that, which is one of the things that could make him more unique as a character.

There is also the question of if Celebrian is even born yet and if so, where she is. As Galadriel and Celeborn's lives are so vague in the first two ages, so is Celebrian, their daughter. I don't think we know for sure when she was born, but I believe it is mentioned in Unfinished Tales that Celebrian was alive and with them by the time they first went to Eregion. Obviously much has changed as neither Celeborn nor Celebrian were present for the fall of Eregion in Rings of Power.

Personally, I don't believe Celebrian is even born yet in RoP. As other have pointed out, Galadriel starts the series as one who has lost everything, one who has no ties and nothing left to lose. This is fundamental to her hunt of Sauron and her eventual fall to the manipulation of Sauron. It doesn't track that she would be doing all this while she has a living and present daughter to worry about or keep her grounded. It's possible both Celeborn and Celebrian are missing. I feel like should would have mentioned that to Theo when she told him about Celeborn, but she's also managed to only mention her supposedly dead husband once in 16 episodes, so clearly she's a master at putting those particular traumas in boxes to never be spoken of. I feel like having both of them be missing to show up later would be a bit too cluttered and it'd be smoother to just say she isn't born yet, but anything's possible.

I'm pretty sure the "canon" about Celebrian being born before the fall of Eregion is from Unfinished Tales anyway? Which I think of as more like a draft of Tolkien's ideas for the family, not canon in the sense of the SIlmarillion or the published stories.

Lots of "canon" falls apart around Galadriel and her family as they were added in so late and Tolkien seemed to die before writing his "final" story for them. And this is an adaptation, they aren't meant to follow "canon" like the gospel anyway, as we've seen. As I've said, the very lack of solid story around Galadriel and her families experiences through the first two ages is more exciting than anything, as it leaves so much room for the writers to get creative them and write a thrilling story that we haven't seen before. This is a chance to shine light on characters that fall under the status of "unfinished" in Tolkien ever-changing world, such as Celeborn. The only "canon" (Silmarillion) information we have on Celeborn for the 1st and 2nd Age is that he lived in Doriath during the 1st Age, he was somehow related to Thingol and later Nimloth, and he and Galadriel were in love. There's other supplementary, unpublished notes that either expand on these traits or straight up contradict them.

Based on letters nearing his death, Tolkien was clearly still thinking of how Galadriel's families story could go, but as he never "finished" with them, if such a thing is even possible, we'll never get that "canon" story from him. So it's up to us- or, in this case, it's up to the writers of the Rings of Power. So we'll see!

Wow, that was a long-winded way to say "I dunno"

#I also realize the show is about the 2nd age- not the 1st age-#but Im just feeling 1st age-pilled after reading the Silmarillion #and they'll have to provide at least a Little information when Celeborn shows up-#maybe not the exact time of Finrods death but at least mention when Celeborn went missing?#I guess they could just keep it vague #that would be consistent with their inconsistent timeline at least lmao #I'm just looking for an excuse to pull my hair out over my new hyper fixation #maybe I shouldn't call it that just yet...#actually I just went through the whole Silmarillion in 5 days #so yeah #tbf about half of it was summary #BUT I WAS PAYING ATTENTION TO THE DORIATH PARTS #God I could use a whole separate series about the Doriath shenanigans #maybe I'll make another post about that #ignore me misspelling Silmarillion #silmarillion #the silmarillion #lord of the rings #the lord of the rings #LOTR #tolkien #jrr tolkien #galadriel #celeborn #Celebrian #galadriel x celeborn #celedriel #the rings of power #trop #rop

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