#smalljon umber

[thewatcher0nthewall]

The young Wolf

[allovesthings]

Me, when I think too much of the fates of SmallJon Umber and Doreah in the show:

They died loyal and fucking D&D made them traitors for some reason.

[myrxellabaratheon]

I just wrote an entire dialogue scene about Dacey Mormont and SmallJon Umber (the guest stars of my new Throbb fic) debating if Robb, being completely in love with Theon will kill him or not… I feel it’s something Martin could have thought about instead of the Red Weddings

[ineedminions]

Fortnight

Smalljon Umber and Sansa Stark reunite outside of King's Landing.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Is your chosen username anything to do with Ray Bradbury’s story by chance? If so, Mildly ironic given the current stete of fandom

It's not the primary reason for my URL (that would be the Simpsons), but yes, "A Sound of Thunder" and the butterfly effect are among the many reasons I love butterflies. I don't think it's ironic re the current state of fandom though, I've long noticed GRRM citing the butterfly effect to explain how a small adaptational difference can lead to great changes by the end, since 2011, and particularly since GOT S5 and S8. So it's not surprising GRRM cited it again re HOTD, it's one of his standards along with Scarlett O'Hara's kids. Heck, he cited both things in an interview (regarding the question of whether HOTD was "canon") only 2 years ago. By definition the butterfly effect is just a single wingbeat that eventually makes a hurricane, but for GRRM it's a drum he's never stopped beating.

So, regarding the butterfly effect in GOT... let's give some examples. One of the butterflies GRRM used to talk about was that in the show, Khal Drogo killed Mago (in the epsiode airing June 5, 2011) whereas in ADWD (released July 17, 2011), Dany is captured by the khalasar where Mago is a bloodrider, and GRRM has said he'll be a significant character in TWOW. How the show handled it... they basically replaced him with Khal Moro, and tbqh, due to GRRM's own flat characterization of the Dothraki, it's hard to tell if there will be any difference between one brutish thug threatening to rape Dany vs another brutish thug with a slightly different name. Maybe TWOW will surprise us there, but if so, I really will be surprised.

Another butterfly (mentioned in the Mago link above) was that in GOT, Marillion never went to the Eyrie, and instead went to KL and got detongued by Joffrey. Thus, Marillion never became Lysa's favorite, and his plot with Sansa in ASOS/AFFC never happened. So Petyr didn't have anyone to blame for Lysa's murder... and yet in the show, he really didn't need Marillion, he convinced the Lords of the Vale that Lysa committed suicide. However, this was done by Sansa revealing her true identity to them... which cut off the Alayne plotpoint altogether. And that leads to what GRRM might call the greater "toxic butterfly" of Jeyne Poole not being an actual character in the show (she appears for half a second at Winterfell and never again), and thus Sansa took her place in the Ramsay storyline. But to be frank, I don't believe Jeyne's absence had any real "butterfly effect" on the show... even if had she been an actual character and Sansa's companion that Littlefinger made into a prostitute at one of his brothels, D&D never would have brought her out again to play "Arya". David and Dan deleted the Alayne plotpoint and Sansa's AFFC/TWOW storyline, and instead sent Sansa north to be married and raped because that's what they wanted to do with her character, not because they "had to" because Jeyne wasn't there. (And if they ever told GRRM otherwise, they lied.)

And that's the truth about the "butterfly effect" straight up. GRRM seems to believe a story must flow logically to its conclusion and thus removing even a small element changes that conclusion. But the truth is that D&D could have done whatever they wanted, dead/nonexistent characters or otherwise. Aegon and JonCon not existing is not what made Dany a mad queen and burn KL, they chose to make her a mad queen because that's the story they wanted to write. The bizarre nonsense of the show Dorne storyline is not because they removed Arianne, but because they wanted to make Ellaria both vengeful and uncaring about her lover's family. Smalljon Umber surviving the Red Wedding is not why Osha and Rickon died, it's because they wanted to kill off Osha and Rickon and add another heartless Northern villain. Flow does not truly apply, this isn't an atmospheric system and it's not a real history. Nothing forced D&D into doing anything except budget/orders from above/other business issues. It's fiction, it's the story they constructed, they chose to construct it that way, because "Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen."

Now, regarding HOTD -- let me first provide a quote from GRRM from the "canon" interview I linked above:

George: And the more you read about history, the more inconsistencies you had. So I thought it would be fun to do that in Fire and Blood. And so when I’m relating what happened here, and I’m thinking about what can happen. Yeah, I… oh, this would be great. This would be really outrageous, it would be… and then, eh, it’s probably too outrageous. Here’s probably what… the more realistic version of it. And wait a minute, this version makes Fred the villain and Bill the hero. And this version makes Bill a villain and Fred the hero. And then at some point it hit me. Why don’t I give all versions? Cause history is uncertain. I’ll give all versions and it’ll be fun for me. I can put in all the really outlandish scurrilous things, the way Mushroom sees it, but I can also put in the things that are probably more…  Aziz: They’re sources, yeah.  George: And that worked fine for those who liked that thing, although some don’t. But if I was writing it as a novel, if I’d been writing this in the form of the books in A Song of Ice and Fire, like Winds of Winter, which I’m writing now. When I get to a chapter in The Winds of Winter and I know something’s gonna happen. How does it happen? What are the things? I think I could do it this way. I could do it that way. I have to make up up my mind. In Fire and Blood, I didn’t have to have to make up my mind, but Ryan and Miguel, when they’re adapting it, they largely had to make up their mind. 

So. In his (deleted) blog post, GRRM talks about the absence of Maelor being a butterfly, so that the Blood & Cheese scene didn't have Helaena choosing between two sons (only between a son and a daughter), and he thinks it's unlikely they'll have the Bitterbridge scene with the Kingsguard Rickard Thorne heroically trying to protect Maelor (who is torn to pieces by the crowd). GRRM said that this will affect Helaena once again, because Maelor's death is why she commits suicide in F&B and he says in the S3 outline Helaena does it for "no reason". Welp. First of all, it's kind of hilarious that the wiki immediately cited GRRM's blog post, because IDK if GRRM recalls that in F&B he gave multiple reasons for Helaena's suicide (several weeks after Maelor's death!) through the book's conceit of multiple historians:

because she learned she was pregnant after being gangraped in a brothel along with her mother per Mushroom's wild story of the "Brothel Queens" (though Gyldayn reasserts no part of Mushroom's story is credible)

because she watched two knights who had tried to rescue Corlys be hanged and this upset her, per Munkun (though Gyldayn thinks it's unlikely because she didn't know them)

because Mysaria told her that night that Maelor had died and how he died, per Septon Eustace (though Gyldayn says it's hard to understand what motive Mysaria would have had for doing so)

because she didn't actually commit suicide, she was pushed, because Rhaenyra ordered her murder (what the smallfolk believed, which per Mushroom was a rumor spread by Larys Strong, and note Gyldayn does not discredit him here)

So whatever reason they're choosing for Helaena's suicide in HOTD (I doubt it will remain "for no reason" between outline and script and broadcast), it may be hard to argue it's not textually based given the multiple choice options in the text. Plus, there's a possible reason in the book that is unmentioned by Gyldayn -- that only a short time before, Daemon had his murder-suicide battle with Aemond above the Gods Eye. Though it seems that the news of that battle didn't reach KL until a day after Helaena's suicide, book!Helaena was not a dreamer the way show!Helaena is. And the show has already drawn a connection between Helaena, Daemon, Aemond, the battle above the Gods Eye, and prophecies. So again, I very much doubt she will kill herself "for no reason" in the show. It may not be the same reason as in F&B, but there should be some reason.

But the fact that GRRM stated outright that the Maelor reason is the real one and therefore he's an important character who should not be butterflied away -- well, that blog post did what his book deliberately failed to do. GRRM wrote a book with so many multiple choice conflicting narratives, deliberately, because he didn't want to make up his mind, so in its adaptation the HOTD writing team chose to write a narrative that picks and chooses among them (and sometimes, yes, makes up new shit), because they did have to make up their mind (and not do a Rashomon framing device). And only now he's like "no that's wrong, there is a real true history there and I'm mad they're not doing it"? I'm sure it's frustrating to GRRM, but if it's a problem, it's been a problem since the very start!

I mean, I am deeply sympathetic to him being disappointed by an adaptation once again, especially if he thought being an executive producer would give him more power than GOT's co-executive producer status but again that was just an empty title with no power at all. And especially if he has been telling the HOTD writers truths the book didn't, only to be dismissed with something like "well you didn't say that in the book so we're doing it differently". And especially if he thought a particular scene was very fine writing and characterization, and is disappointed that the show is unlikely to broadcast it to a greater audience. Y'klnow... damn the NDAs, but someone really ought to get GRRM's opinion regarding Septon Meribald's broken men speech, frequently considered one of his best, and how they did something rather different in GOT... and lbr, the Rickard Thorne Bitterbridge scene was a nice bit of a knight actually keeping his vows for once, but it doesn't compare.

(Seriously, let's be real. We all know GRRM's real issue is with what GOT did to his legacy. HOTD is just the one he thinks he might be able to nip in the bud before they make so many changes... and if he can't, that's just the wound of GOT all over again.)

And I do agree that Helaena's suicide is important, however it happens. The KL riots being sparked by her suicide are also important. (Though I very much doubt they won't exist at all in any form -- again see that vision from S2E8 and the fact that it included a scene evidently from the Storming of the Dragonpit.) And Maelor is important as well for something GRRM didn't mention (perhaps he thought he couldn't get away with it, though evidently he couldn't get away with saying anything) -- the fact that his death is what causes Daeron's heel turn from a sweet kid to a war criminal, and thus the Sack of Bitterbridge and Lady Caswell's own suicide (imo far more emotionally moving than Thorne's stand against the crowd). But... those butterflies don't necessarily have to be "killed", as GRRM fears. Daeron (who at least we know exists in the show) can have a heel turn for a different reason. Bitterbridge can be sacked for a different reason.

If that's what they choose to do, because yes, Daeron doesn't have to have a heel turn at all, Bitterbridge doesn't need to be sacked at all, the entire southern campaign can be a different story, they can write anything they want, as faithful to F&B as they want or otherwise. But GRRM's greatest worry seems to be that a less-than-faithful adaptation won't be a "logical and convincing" story where all the points lead to a conclusion, and... I'm truly sorry to say, that does not necessarily follow. Whatever conclusion HOTD reaches will be the sum of whatever came before. If some parts aren't built up as well as they should be, lbr F&B's Dance has had the same critiques for years. And again, the multiple-historian conceit, as well as it being a history and not a POV narrative, has never helped this issue, because it lead to one of F&B's greatest faults -- that it is not consistent with itself. (Unrelated to the Dance: see Alysanne's attitude towards Baelon inheriting at the end of the Long Reign chapter, vs pages later in the Heirs of the Dragon chapter. "You will be a great king" vs "a cock is not essential"... these chapters were written years apart, and not edited together nearly as well as they should have been.) If GRRM has a different story in his head that is more consistent than was put on the page, again this may be too little too late for all the work already put into the show.

However... I have a very strong feeling that it's not "Maelor the missing" or even whatever's happening with Helaena and the riot, or Daeron and Bitterbridge, that's GRRM's real worry about "toxic butterflies". I think the subject he really wanted to talk about, and knew he absolutely could not (and yet perhaps hoped that post could pressure HBO about), is the absence of Nettles. Her absence would greatly change the relationship of Daemon and Rhaenyra, who we've seen HOTD has chosen to portray as an OTP, a toxic one perhaps, "always meant to burn together". But it was already portrayed as odd in F&B for Daemon to lose his head chasing after a teen girl (if IMO entirely consistent with his personality), but with HOTD's apparent Daemon/Rhaenyra plot... Well, see S2's process starting with him leaving her in ep2, to their reunion in ep8 convinced she's the queen chosen by the gods... is Nettles going to come in and blow that up? Make Daemon abandon Rhaenyra again? It could be told in a "logical and convincing" way, I still think it should be, but at this point it's hard to see how it would be. (And looking at GOT in comparison, Nettles does not have either the textual value nor the fanbase that Brienne has, and just look how they ended their toxic OTP of Jaime/Cersei, despite the books.)

But plot and relationships aside, Nettles is a character whose meaning reaches well beyond F&B, to affect ASOIAF itself. Her legacy regarding Targaryen exceptionalism, to the subject of who can really ride a dragon, her legacy regarding the Vale's Burned Men... all these are elements that may be extremely important in TWOW and ADOS. So if GRRM has been trying to convince Ryan that Nettles is the most important character that should not be eliminated, and yet has been shut down... well, no wonder he's been depressed about his own legacy.

And again, I'm sure it's the deeper wound of GOT's ending that's been truly paining GRRM regarding his legacy, that their ending that may be the only thing anyone ever sees. Perhaps he was hoping that HOTD could help correct the issue. That its foreshadowing would help readers understand the truth, what happens in TWOW and ADOS, the real ending. But... again I'm deeply sympathetic, and I'm sorry HOTD couldn't be that for him, but the truth is no other television show can be GRRM's legacy in that way. The only thing that can correct GOT is his own words. The only thing that truly matters is him finishing TWOW and ADOS... and it's been 13 years since ADWD, 5 years since GOT S8. I want to tell him, so much, fuck the butterflies-- as you've said so many times yourself, the show is not the books. Leave them be in their other universe and focus on your own, please. Please.

Because, again, let's be real. If GRRM does finish his grand epic and completes his legacy, his last word on the subject... if this makes HBDiscFlix want to do a GOT remake once they have an actual story to adapt "correctly" (which they still won't)... you know that when the final season of Game of Thrones Brotherhood comes out in 2050 and Tyrion rides a dragon despite having no Targaryen ancestry... all the clickbait sites and YouTok will have vidposts like "The Missing Character from House of the Dragon - What You Don't Know About This GOTB Development!" It won't matter what HBO did or didn't do with HOTD. It's just GRRM's own words in the end... if he has them.

[west1rosi]

muses i might add:

HOUSE CELTIGAR : Bartimos Celtigar (head of house celtigar during the dance of the dragons, canon name), Clement Celtigar (heir to claw isle ), Selira Celtigar, Jocey Celtigar and Cliara Celtigar, Bartimos' triplet daughters. Like the Valeryon and Targaryen, they origin from Old Valyria but they never bonded with dragons and are seen as a lesser house. House Celtigar however, are thought to be practicians of magic. They possess purple/lilac/deep blue eyes and silver/blonde hair.

Eddara Tallhart: Eddara became Lady of Torrhen's Square after the death of her father and older brother. From the North, taken captive by ironborn, she was freed by Ashara Grey.joy. She pledged her house to Jon Snow and assisted in the battle of the bastards. Eddara would eventually also fight during the battle for the dawn.

Jayda Umber: daughter of GreatJon Umber and younger sister of SmallJon Umber. Forced to pledge to Ramsey and the Boltons due to fear of what would happen to her father, they would eventually find freedom and Jayda guards their family seat while her brother fights in battle.

[ao3feed-tywin]

Of Dragons and Wolves

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/Ljd7FDv

by TFJWise49

My second Game of Thrones fanfiction, where Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark and his real name is Belisarys Targaryen. I chose the name Belisarys because I based it off of the Roman hero, Flavius Belisarius. Though Jon Snow is a Targaryen in this, I make no apologies for how I portray Rhaegar, for I dislike him for abandoning his wife and two children during the Rebellion whilst leaving three elite Kingsguard knights to guard Lyanna, and not leave her a Maester to care for her. This starts off with the North going to war when the Night's Watch call for help, just as Mance Rayder is coming to the Wall with his army and has warbands raiding Brandon's Gift.

Words: 197065, Chapters: 34/34, Language: English

Fandoms: Game of Thrones (TV), A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin

Rating: Mature

Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence

Categories: F/M, Multi

Characters: Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Samwell Tarly, Margaery Tyrell, Barristan Selmy, Tyrion Lannister, Simon Reyne (Original Male Character), Jeonla Han (Original Female Character), Thalia Hightower (Original Female Character), Randyll Tarly, Ned Stark, Patrek Mallister, Mira Forrester, Brienne of Tarth, Jon "The Smalljon" Umber, Bronn (A Song of Ice and Fire), Daenerys Targaryen, Desmera Redwyne, Catelyn Tully Stark, Brynden "Blackfish" Tully, Edmure Tully, Harrold Hardyng, Yohn Royce, Sigorn of Thenn (A Song of Ice and Fire), Tormund Giantsbane, Mance Rayder, Ygritte, Theon Greyjoy, Dickon Tarly, Stannis Baratheon, Davos Seaworth, Shireen Baratheon, Mace Tyrell, Loras Tyrell, Olenna Tyrell, Oberyn Martell, Maester Aemon Targaryen, Rickard Karstark, Roose Bolton, Domeric Bolton, Harrion Karstark, Eddard Karstark, Torrhen Karstark, Yuzaia Han (Original Male Character), Anders Yronwood, Alester Florent, Howland Reed, Euron Greyjoy, Jojen Reed, Tywin Lannister, Jaime Lannister, Joffrey Baratheon, Cersei Lannister, Petyr Baelish, Varys (A Song of Ice and Fire), Gendry Waters, Willam Dustin, Matthos Seaworth

Relationships: Jon Snow/Margaery Tyrell, Theon Greyjoy/Sansa Stark, Bronn/Shae (A Song of Ice and Fire), Jon "The Smalljon" Umber/Alysane Mormont, Simon Reyne (Original Male Character)/Jeonla Han (Original Female Character), Robb Stark/Thalia Hightower (Original Female Character), Harrold Hardyng/Myranda Royce, Desmera Redwyne/Samwell Tarly

Additional Tags: R Plus L Equals J | Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen are Jon Snow's Parents, Rhaegar Targaryen Bashing, Jon Snow is Not Called Aegon, Willam Dustin Lives, Domeric Bolton Lives, Dead Ramsay Bolton, Yi Ti (A Song of Ice and Fire)

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/Ljd7FDv

[not-for-granted]

Zeus Actor (for PJO).

Since they’ve announced a “Percy Jackson & the Olympians” series to be released on Disney+, I’ve been pretty quiet, trying to keep my opinions to myself in spite of all the controversy and strong opinions surrounding it.  I’ll just say, without too much vitriol or bitterness, that I think the whole thing is a misstep and it should’ve been animated, it should’ve been animated, it should have been animated. I think about what could have been with a PJO series done in a similar style to “Avatar: The Last Airbender” and it could’ve been so great. 

That being said, it’s happening, might as well get used to it, and hope for the best for all the actors involved. And since the passing of Lance Reddick, who was a terrific actor, I’ve been thinking about who could take on the role of Zeus. That’s not accurate, I’ve been thinking about who could play Zeus since before the casting was announced.  Now I can read the writing on the wall as good as anyone else, and I know that they’ll probably recast with another black actor with a gorgeous voice and majestic presence, sure... Dennis Haysbert and Peter Mensah both come to mind, I wouldn’t hate either. 

However, my original choice for Zeus has always been Dean Jagger since “Warrior” dropped. He’s not been in a lot of other stuff though, he’s best known for a short appearance in “Game of Thrones” as treacherous Northern heavy ‘Smalljon Umber’, but in “Warrior” he is given a lot more to work with as a jingoistic Irish legbreaker in terms of muscles to flex and, well, acting muscles to flex. Between his imposing build, a jawline that could cut glass, and his ability to make even the most reprehensible character remotely sympathetic and authoritative, I’m sure he’d do really well.

Then though, I got to thinking about a bigger name who might be interesting and something unique came to mind. Before watching “Cabinet of Curiosities”, I didn’t think he had the mature, patrician... ugh, fine, ‘daddy’ energies to sufficiently embody Zeus but now?  I think Ben Barnes could crush it. 

I mean this in all seriousness, aside from residual fanboy-isms and overhype, and in fact I think his past as a go-to heartthrob (not that far in the past, fair enough) is perfect for Zeus. Let’s be real, Zeus is a bit of a (complete) bastard, manipulative and demanding and hypocritical, abusive and narcissistic to the extreme and he only manages to look reasonable / sympathetic due to being the best of a series of bad options for ‘Ruler of the Cosmos’. Casting someone who is bringing some goodwill from past works, young and old fans from prior fandoms, will go a long way to ah ‘put him in Leather Pants’, so to speak. Let there be some conflict with how they feel about Zeus, and charisma to contrast with everything we all know about Zeus too.  Fresh off of “The Punisher” playing a sociopathic ex-Marine, and “Shadow and Bone” playing a seductive but power-mad shadow-bendy type of megalomaniac, Ben Barnes would be splendid in a ‘recast’ Zeus. Since all the Olympians are shapeshifters anyway, they could end up casting new/multiple actors for each of the Olympians. I mean to say they could even go the route of “Joan of Arcadia” and have them have multiple ‘guises’ that they adopt for each of their children, each of their ‘audience’, depending on the vibe they want to set. Yes, Aphrodite makes it particularly famous, but all of them have their way of shifting to appeal to who views them (and that’s not even getting into the Roman aspect nonsense!). 

So yes, Ben Barnes as my pick for who they could utilize as an aspect of Zeus going forward in the PJO series, and that could further influence who they cast for Thalia (not going to even dream of casting Jason). I hope these reasons and helpful pictures explain why.  If anyone is interested in some of my other casting ideas (Thalia, Hera, Aphrodite, etc.) and the explanations behind them, do let me know, maybe I’ll drop another post. 

[jonquildove]

theintendedone:

Not wanting to know and needing to know were two entirely different things. Roslin did not want to leave questions. She felt so guilty for the whole ordeal. Even Robb's guards, Dacey Mormont who hailed from Bear Island and wielded a sword as she lived in the forest and Patrek Mallister could not have foreseen the treachery or rescued him; they had died with him in the hall. There wasn’t much that could be done for it though. It was over and everyone who had died was already long since rotted. Smalljon Umber, a small giant, had admirably thrown a table where his king Robb was, ensuring the legs landed on the ground, and the rectangle shelter covered his fallen form. She wished more than anything that things could have been changed. The world was cruel though. Men were monsters but so were women. Roslin could only hope that things would change in the future. She knew that wasn’t the case though. People would always be cruel. She liked to think that Edmure and she would stay away from it. There was no interest in getting involved in the world’s pissing matches when they had a family and future ahead of them. Sometimes, when she was speaking to her son Robb, she spoke fairytales of her as a princess and the wolf king Robb, as she braided dreadlocks in her hair as she liked fashion. Edmure was plagued with nightmares oft, and they helped each other with their haunted state. “Exhausted. Babies can be but it’s all for a good cause. We’re adjusting but the nightmares plague us too. We want to just try and move forward from it all.” That would take time. They would never completely forget the horror but they would try their best just as Sansa would. They couldn’t go on like this forever. It wasn’t the sort of life his sister would have wanted for them or anyone else for that matter. Expressing the truth to her niece would hardly bother her. The girl could have been her sister in another life. She had an obligation to live up to here and she would.

“I do pray that you and Edmure get sufficient rest, your Grace.” It must be a lot to handle for Roslin, the knowledge of what had happened at the Red Wedding and her baby by Edmure. “…So, the baby’s born, now? Congratulations, my lady.” “We are fortunate to have not seen the actual event, or the nightmares might be worse." But I wish I could have done something, put a stop to the Red Wedding. If I’d known the Lannisters had planted the idea in Walder’s head, and gave him promises, I could have spoken to Cersei. She knew that it was not her fault, how could it be? Even the gods viewed this act as the worst offence that could ever be committed. But even so… She had additionally heard that hormones and emotions got heightened when one got pregnant, and she admired Roslin’s strength, to keep going. She would never forgive Roslin’s grandfather, Walder, though and would not wish to meet him, see that sadistic, twisted smile on his face. She missed her brother, mother and father so much, it physically ached her inside, she feeling quite depressed as she expresses her feelings, pulled at her heartstrings so hard that she was afraid they would shatter.

[darkficsyouneveraskedfor]

Thoughts on Smalljon Umber?

Eh. Never really thot much about him.

[allovesthings]

Characters who deserved better than what game of thrones gave them:

The Jeynes, Arianne and Alys Karstark: Jeyne Poole, Arianne and Alys are just non-existent (which might be a blessing in disguise actually considering what they did to the girls who were actually in the show) and Jeyne Westerling is replaced by a character who makes no sense whatsoever and doesn't work with Robb's actual character arc.

The Mormont women (not sure if I should include Lyanna in this because we don't know her in the books so far): they were just so cool. They deserve better than a cameo in season 1. Where is that moment when they tell Cat she would have done the same thing when she freed Jaime ?

Doreah and SmallJon Umber. Fuck D&D for what they did to them, They are dead in the books and they died at the Red Wedding for Robb and with Dany. They were extremely loyal to their respective leader, they didn't deserve to be made traitors for some reason and to die at the hand of said leaders (or their family). I will forever be furious about it.

[whitedragonwolf4961]

@snowlealee You know this moron and others think Dany just “burns alive” anyone who doesn’t bend the knee to her. But I wonder… what do they think Jon and Sansa would do to any Northern lord who didn’t bend the knee to them? Hmm? After all… didn’t Sansa want to punish Alys Karstark and Ned Umber for their fathers’ betrayal? Oh and Dany gave Randyll and Dickon Tarly the opportunity to bend the knee and keep their lands and titles… despite the fact that they betrayed her ally Olenna Tyrell. Would Jon and Sansa have given Harold Karstark and Smalljon Umber the chance to bend the knee and keep their titles or refuse and die? Or would they have simply executed them for treason? I think the latter is more likely. And like I said this scene was written to make Sansa look like such “a smart political genius” who understand armies need to be fed, despite the fact Dany is a Queen and a military leader who would obviously know that she has to keep her people fed. Hell, in the books she is thinking about keeping her people from starving. But you and I both know Show Sansa is D&D’s little pet and she has to be smarter than everyone so to do that, they dumb everybody else down and have Sansa point out the obvious.

Stark Stans like that guy seem to think the North was some sort of utopia before the Targaryens “colonized” it. Mmm… nope. First the Starks’ ancestors slaughtered the natives, the Children, and actually colonized the land. Then the Starks conquered the North, not by being nice and generous, but by wiping out rival kings and their bloodlines and taking the daughters as “prizes”. And then there’s what they did to the Warg King and his daughters. The Starks have good members but they were also ruthless and that’s how they became the Kings of the North. Not by “consent of the governed” like Show Stark stans and anti Targaryens seem to think. Not to mention the North actually benefited from the Targaryens because they no longer had to worry about Southern invasions now that they were part of a united country. And in the winters they could ask for food and supplies. Also the Targaryens allowed them to keep to themselves. Keep to their religion and culture and traditions. They did however abolish the First Night because that was allowing lords to rape common women on their wedding nights.

And as for the “implied threat”… Sansa was not asking a legitimate question. She was simply making it clear how unhappy she was having “foreigners and outsiders” in her home and acting like they’re gonna be a burden and not the only thing that will save them from certain death. Dany never made any threats. She simply snarked back at the rude host. Aren’t guests supposed to be treated with respect?

I just learned a new (well new for me) take about that dumb show Sansa and Dany scene with the “What do dragons eat” bs. This guy thinks Sansa was asking a legitimate question and not being a rude host while Dany is a terrible diplomat who is making an implied threat because Sansa isn’t kissing her boots. And that Dany isn’t there out of the goodness of her heart but because she’s scared and knows that the Others will kill her if they get past the North. And this moron, they were on Instagram, thinks Sansa is just a good “leader” who wants the North free from “Targaryen tyranny” because of the ratio of 6 out of 17 Targaryen rulers being “mad” (obviously this person didn’t read the lore). Sansa stans and Dany antis keep inventing new moronic ludicrous ways to defend their fave and shit on Dany. Sansa, and of course this is just bad writing to make Sansa look “smart”, should have known Jon was coming home with more people. And Dany, as a leader and ruler, would have known to bring her own food for her army. But of course D&D want Sansa to “look smarter than everyone” by having her be a rude whiny host and start a cat fight with the other powerful woman.

Yeah, I think Instagram!Stansa needs to rewatch that scene.

There we go! :) So... I want to know what about this delivery was genuine? Because all I'm seeing is snark. I don't even have to go into "subtle facial expressions" and mIcRoaGgReSsIOnS ;) But let's continue!

Yes, Dany, the "terrible diplomat". Didn't the Unsullied choose to follow her from Astapor to Westeros after she freed them? Now, I know Dany antis love to argue, "They dIdN'T hAvE anYwHeRe eLsE tO gOoO oR anY oThEr cArEeR oPTIoNs sO iS iT rEaLLy FrEeDoM?" Yes, yes it is, but that's a post covered by other people better than I. Also, then how do you explain smallfolk and their "career options"? And at least she was able to convince Highgarden, Dorne, and the Yara's faction of the Iron Islands onto her side and all on her own steam. Highgarden and Dorne may have joined Dany looking for revenge against the Lannister regime but Dany had honest-to-god face-to-face conversations with those leaders that won them over. And Dany was able to win Yara over on discussion alone, Yara -- a famously stubborn Iron Islander -- who stayed loyal to Dany to the end. Sansa? The Vale's forces came to the Starks' aid thanks to Littlefinger. And middleman Littlefinger arranged that thanks to his perverted attraction to Sansa because of her resemblance to her Tully mother. Littlefinger even takes credit for that in his one scene with Jon in 7x02. Sansa successfully manages to piss off House Mormont and House Glover on the Northern tour in 6x07 before shitting on the one person (Davos) who was able to convince the only Northerners onto their side on-screen. Oh wait, oh wait, yes, Lord Royce decided the Vale forces came "for [Sansa]" in 7x05 while he, Lord Glover and the Northern lords had that casually treasonous conversation about overthrowing Jon for Sansa. Jon, their king, whom they elected only six episodes earlier. (Hey hey, remember when Lord Glover was all like: "House Glover will stand behind House Stark as we have for a thousand years. And I will stand behind Jon Snow... THE KING IN THE NORTH!" The North remembers, hey?)

And Sansa just listens and watches this proposed coup against her beloved brother with a smile before she calls them very kind (diplomacy!!!) and says Jon is doing what he thinks is best (getting crucial help against an ever encroaching extinction level event but agree to disagree, right Jon?) ....before Arya emerges from the shadows and is all like, "Diplomacy? Bullshit. You just want them on your side in case Jon doesn't come back."

And the script verifies ✅ And yeah, feeding armies -- not sure how Stansas think Dany's armies and dragons were fed on the journey there... I think Sansa may have a bit of a memory problem because Jon specifically told Sansa before he left for Dragonstone in 7x02:

We know that dragonglass can destroy both White Walkers and their army. We need to mine it and turn it into weapons. But more importantly, we need allies. The Night King's army grows larger by the day. We can't defeat them on our own. We don't have the numbers. Daenerys has her own army, and she has dragonfire. I need to try and persuade her to fight with us. Ser Davos and I will ride for White Harbor tomorrow, then sail for Dragonstone.

Yet Sansa acts like Dany and her armies' arrival is:

And yet the Stansa response to this is...

As for Dany coming North to fight the Others, yeah, she made that vow even before Jon gave her his fealty. As soon as Dany saw the Night King and the army of the dead were real, and as soon as Jon woke up (whom she searched and waited for after he fell below the ice surrounded by wights), Dany vowed to defeat the Night King and his army of the dead. She required nothing of Jon and asked nothing of Jon. Dany was determined to eliminate this threat from the world.

I will argue from a practical standpoint that the smart thing for Dany to do (and Jon and... any leader including Sansa) would probably be to help fight the Others before they start decimating Westeros. The army of the dead would be at its smallest at that point and the living would have its best chance before the AotD started adding corpses to its ranks as it killed its way through the continent. Even if Dany (or Euron) went back to Essos or their island (and I don't know if D&D considered this), water freezes like it did in 7x06 (...D&D). It'd take a while for the Narrow Sea to freeze, I'd imagine, I don't know the extent of the Night King's powers (I don't know if D&D really cared...) but if D&D (or GRRM) wanted.... yeah. This was one of my arguments against the Jonsas' popular Pol!Jon reasoning that, "Jon only sexed Dany up to keep her on side to fight the Night King! Otherwise, her distracted thirst!bot tyrant brain would go right back to fighting Cersei! Jon's dick is the only thing that can keep her under control!!1" (Because it's okay for Sansa to be concerned about Cersei in 7x01 but not Dany, no no no, even though Dany is actively engaged in war with Cersei...) However, when did Dany ever show fear at the prospect of fighting them? And would that at all be unreasonable? THEY'RE ZOMBIES. THEY'RE A GIANT ARMY OF ICE ZOMBIES CAPABLE OF ENDING HUMAN EXISTENCE. IT'S SMART TO BE AFRAID!

And what did Ned say about bravery and being afraid? Further, Dany was the one fighting them out there! She wasn't the one, hiding in the crypts, bitching about the woman, flying on dragonback, literally tackling the Night King! Dany was the one f i g h t i n g!

Dany has own non-Jon reasons to fight the Night King. Practicality, the Night King killed her baby, and Westeros is the country she wants to rule.

Speaking of Westeros, I don't imagine Dany would be comfortable leaving Westeros to that horrible, nightmarish fate. This is the country she wants to better, and to leave in a better place. She can't do that with the Night King turning her citizens into zombies. Zombies suck for quality of life. Finally, as for Targaryen "tyranny", I'd love to know where they pulled their "mad Targaryen/rulers" numbers from. I'd also love to know what they think of the Starks' own history too, their wars against the Children of the Forest, and how they feel about Westeros's feudalism in general which the Starks are very much a part of :) Maybe it needs reminding that Sansa is a feudal leader. Sansa has demanded House Glover and House Mormont honour their original oaths of fealty to House Stark despite House Glover and House Mormont experiencing significant personal losses in the Red Wedding thanks to Robb breaking his oath to House Frey. Despite House Stark losing the North and it returning to the Iron Throne under the Lannister regime. Sansa has also demanded Jon force the wildling refugees he helped save to fight for Winterfell. The 5,000 homeless wildling refugees on the run from the Night King, 3,000 of whom are children and old people. Funny how that is virtually never brought up, isn't it? I wonder how Skagosi feel about House Stark.

[ineedminions]

"I'm Going To Get You Out Of Here."

Benjen looked at Sansa. She’d been staying with him after the bad breakup she’d recently gone through. He’s hoped to get her to cheer up but to no avail so far in the couple of days she’d been there. “Hey, my para-jumpers need another person for their training op today if you want to come. I’ll get you some clothes, you’ll do some makeup with fake blood and then all you gotta do is lay there, and they’ll come get you with the rest.”

“Yeah, why not?” She said with an interested shrug.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/46708447

[wpmorse]

"Kill me, and be cursed. You are no king of mine."

Catelyn III - Page 281

Robb was raised to believe it is the duty of the one who passes the sentence to execute the condemned. So, he executes Rickard Karstark himself.

I'm sure this one would have worked in a standard poster format. Unfortunately, in this format, I couldn't fit Robb standing over Karstark into my rectangle. I had to have him stand too far away to make it work. Still, I think the principle is sound.

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

[myrxellabaratheon]

Somehow this fic is also giving “past - SmallJon Umber x Domeric Bolton vibes” 🤣

Me writing a Throbb fic:

But his pride […] forbid him to send the raven to his king, to his brother, to his lover

Me, rereading and realizing a second later it sounds too much Lannincest to be a Throbb sentence:

But his pride […] forbid him to send the raven to his king, to his brother friend, to his lover