#silmarillion: who speaks?

[dawnfelagund]

The last couple of days have been heavier topics, with data on who speaks by gender and character group, so today seemed a good day for a post that is only semi-serious!

Because it doesn't actually mean much to talk more than Ilúvatar in The Silmarillion. Ilúvatar has a lot of lines and is prone to speech-making so has a high word count as well, but it's not like the four characters who speak more than him are trying to one-up God or anything. But we're Silmarillion fans and anything related to our characters feels political, so it's fun to consider which of them talk more than God.

In fact, the four characters who do are interesting in part because their dialogue is so different. Melian's dialogue is mostly in conversation, with Thingol or Galadriel. Fëanor has a variety of different dialogue but also makes some lengthy speeches; his speech to the Noldor prior to their exile is the third longest in the book (excluding two instances of "group speeches"). Túrin is the exact opposite: He speaks a lot, but his instances of dialogue are unusually short. The median length of an instance of dialogue across the book is thirty-one words, but the median for Túrin's dialogue is twenty-one words.

Thingol, of course, comes out on top as the character who speaks the most instances of dialogue AND the most words, topping Ilúvatar in both of these categories.

Returning to Melian and continuing yesterday's discussion of gender and speech, the woman who speaks the most after Melian is Yavanna, with ten instances of dialogue (most of them in the Christopher Tolkien-authored "Of Aulë and Yavanna). This means that Melian and Yavanna speak more than half of the dialogue uttered by women in The Silmarillion.

Of course, I'm always interested in pseudohistorical readings of The Silmarillion, particularly thinking about who is telling the story at what points and how the story Tolkien gives us is shaped by narrative point of view.

In this case, Thingol as the top talker makes sense given that the Beleriandic materials were collected by Pengolodh, who counted as a major source the refugees from Doriath who migrated, as did he, to Sirion's mouth. Dírhaval, who is credited with Túrin's story, would have likewise heard much of Thingol (and Melian) from his sources. It makes sense that Thingol, Túrin, and Melian are written with more immediacy than other characters are, who likely felt less accessible to the narrators.

What about Fëanor? The Aman materials were authored by Rúmil and passed to Pengolodh. I've always felt like Rúmil's sections portray Fëanor with more humanity than Pengolodh's sections do, though I've not yet drilled down into the data on this. The dialogue data seems to support that, at least, Rúmil perceived Fëanor as a character important enough that his words were worth preserving. That may seem like a "doh" statement, but consider how many important moments throughout The Silmarillion occur without us hearing dialogue from anyone at all. Multiple of Fëanor's speeches, on the other hand, were preserved.

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This is part of my ongoing project The Silmarillion: Who Speaks? The data is available under a CC license for others who wish to play with it: View the data | Copy the data

Previous posts:

Dialogue by Chapter Dialogue by Character Group Dialogue by Gender

The entire project is archive on the Silmarillion Writers' Guild.

[psstwantsomecheese]

Theory that Fingon was supposed to survive the Nirnaeth Arnoediad

So we know that during confrontations Morgoth's army has this tendency to capture at least 1 prisoner usually the one deemed most valuable and leave the rest to die. We've seen it with Maedhros during the fake parley, Gwindor during his storm on the gates in Angband, Hurin, Turin with his outlaws etc. etc. Hell it would've happened to Finrod too if he didn't go and sacrifice himself first.

When they take prisoners usually it's for some fell purpose like inflicting some sick method of torture or manipulating them into betraying their allies. Capturing the High King and walking propaganda for hope would be like winning the lottery for Melkor who's very into demoralizing his enemies.

And with Fingon's last battle reporting him to be standing alone among his dead guard Gothmog was probably supposed to take him alive too. Maybe he would have if some balrog didn't ambush him. So Anggang had to go with plan B and desecrate his corpse instead, not as good as torturing him until he's a shell of his former self but still a huge blow to Noldor morale. I can't tell if it would have been better or worse if Fingon survived or not.

[corsairspade]

Celegorm but everything about him is 10x funnier because he's a chronic ainur fucker and just doesn't tell anyone about it. He looks inwards and decides marriage is between elves so deciding to roll around with maiar of the hunt is absolutely valid and not marriage. Who's ever heard of an elf marrying a Maia?

Elven polyamory may be illegal but it doesn't count if he's just ferrying kisses between Oromë and Vána- they're not elves. No, it's not hypocritical, what are you talking about. Just don't tell his father. What? No, not because of the whole polyamory thing, Feanor's just got a thing about Valar. Yes Celegorm is sure that's the only reason he doesn't want to tell his dad.

[theoppositeofprofound]

I saw a poll the other day that made me think about Finrod, because people were (correctly) criticizing the instinct to reduce him down to a pretty, shiny, no-thoughts, certified kissboy. Which he isn’t—but it’s also become a stereotype because it’s a flattening of a much more nuanced representation of Beleriand era Finrod as someone for whom the plumage is a tool and a threat display, who intensely overinvests himself in the people around him because somewhere in the back of his mind is the knowledge that everyone here is doomed (him especially). I think the exuberance and easy attachment and delight in what is beautiful now can be in character when it’s underpinned with wisdom so sharp he keeps cutting himself on it. There are some distinct depressed philosophy student vibes to the Nargothrond period and if there’s one thing a philosopher can do it’s tactical psyche-preserving hedonism.

[daily-smol-silm]

Day #168 - Run

AKA Flight of the Noldor in a nutshell

[sakasakiii]

Dude I'm literally obsessed with your art, it's AMAZING. Also, thank you for making those family trees?! They're amazing and really help me with recalling who is who and related to who, lmao. You're literally the best, bless.

acckkkkk thank you nonnie!!!!! thats so kind of you to say! im especially thankful you like those family trees...... warning for incoming yap session! i pinned it on my blog bc i thought itd be helpful for ppl unfamiliar with my designs of who's-who, but looking back on it now ALMOST THREE YEARS LATER?!?!?!?!!???? there's so many things with it that i wish i could change! im really honoured that youve been finding it helpful with recalling who's related to who, but now i tend to feel guilty abt possibly feeding ppl the wrong information about tolkien's lore aaahahaha (seeing as some of the family relations there e.g. rumil being miriels dad, glorfindel being elenwe's brother, mags n his wife having two kids, are my own headcanon OTL)

nonetheless, its really really high praise to hear that and im very grateful you took the time to send in such a lovely ask, anon! ❤️ hearing all this talk of trees and whatnot made me think back to a tolkien untangled video i was watching where he basically said along the lines of 'most of the iconic elven genealogy in middle earth can be traced down to starting with finwe and elwe' which really shook my worldview HAHA... so in the spirit of continuing silly ask doodles, here's two bros doing some gardening together :D

thank you so much again for such kind words, and i hope you have a wonderful rest of your week!! and a very happy and belated new year's to everyone reading this! ᕙ( •̀ ᗜ •́ )ᕗ

[jiangwanyeehaw]

"But you wouldn't fuck a Nazghul–"

Of course I would fuck a Nazghul. I would fuck a Nazghul in a heartbeat, no questions asked. I would prefer the Nazghul over that guy who hit on me at Penny two weeks ago because one of them looked like they have a job and aren't a bigot and let me tell you it wasn't the guy at Penny.

Hell, let me marry that Nazghul. He looks like he knows what it's like to bond with someone for un undetermined period of time. He looks like he wouldn't betray me. He's great at commiting.

You know what? Let me just marry Sauron. He'd be happy to put a ring on my finger. Something many other men would be hesitant to do.

[thelien-art]

Definitely not for a drawing😶

*Tar-Mairon/Zigûr/totallyharmlessSauron

Idk I just suddenly thought; when I began definitely not drawing Zigûr did Celebrimbor die about a thousand years before Sauron was brought to Númenor? Yes. Does Pharazôn strike me as a paranoid person? Acutely, yes, in a way... would he be sure of his power over a Maia, or would he ban his pet Maia Sauron from petty things even after Sauron becomes his high priest?

It just struck me as such a small thing I could see Pharazôn wanting to control, he is so desperate for power I can see him permitting Sauron all the jewelry he wants, ANYTHING but rings.

[welcomingdisaster]

I think it's interesting how we judge the outcomes of the battles of Beleriand when the elves are up against a foe that, objectively speaking, cannot be defeated by elven might. Like, you can say the outcome of this battle or that battle might have been different, but it seems like there is no way to defeat Morgoth without drawing on the gods and also breaking the land itself.

I think there's a way that this turns questions of strategy into questions of honor. The question "how do we best defeat Morgoth?" has a very simple answer ("you don't"), and I think by the end of the first age most of the elves know that. So there's that feeling I get that the real questions of the latter battles are more along the lines of doing the right thing than doing a sensical thing. Is it more honorable to try to hold out for as long as possible against an unstoppable force, or to go out in a blaze of glory? Is it more honorable to retreat and save what men you can, or to rush in and die alongside your men who are being slaughtered?

[zeb-z]

I’ve been thinking about the oath of Fëanor and his sons. The oath is said to be cosmically binding, sure, but what does that mean? Does that mean it’s an impulse? That you feel driven to fulfill the oath? Or does it just mean that the consequences for failing are always looming, and there’s more room for free will? Is the threat of damning yourself the only driving force, or because of the cosmic nature of it does it compel you to complete it?

I think the way it’s left up in the air makes Maedhros that much more compelling - because he’s the most sympathetic out of Fëanor’s sons, he feels remorse and tries desperately to keep peace. But because of the oath he swore, he’s doomed to fight and kill for the silmarils. It’s hard to pin the title of villain on him because he’s sympathetic, he fights back against the worst of what his father has done, he’s a driving force against the Enemy and its evils. It’s definitely hard to pin the title of hero on him because of all the terrible deeds he’s done in the name of his father and the silmarils, the kinslaying, the kidnapping.

It’s clear he follows the oath no matter how much he does not want to. He follows it through and doing so kills him, because he cannot handle the weight of what he’d done, and it was never worth it. But was it his unwavering duty and honor to his word, along with the threat of what would happen if he broke the oath - or was there any cosmic drive to complete the oath due to its nature and the way it was sworn?

If it was always a matter of free will, would having refused the oath been something more honorable in the end? Or would that have doomed Beleriand even earlier than it was, without him there to fight against the Enemy?

[joetamy]

I have been starting to see my art get reposted to pinterest in recent times. Already, somehow, Fëanor is floating around there. At least that one was nice enough to mention where it is from and who made it. Appreciated! Though I think I may simply need to start posting there myself hahah I have had an account for so long, I might as well. If anyone wants to repost my work, do so with reason. Mention where it is from, who made it and such and so. Thanks! On other notes, Fingolfin has taken a while, that crazy bro is so particular it was hard to catch his vibe. But he will soon be done, then his sisters are next! I can't believe I did this to myself 🤭

[dawnfelagund]

I expect the outcome of these data will surprise no one. Women speak less, and women speak less. This isn't a typo: It means that they have fewer instances of dialogue in The Silmarillion by a substantial margin, and when they do speak, they speak nine fewer words than men, on average.

Instances of women speaking is much nearer to speakers of unknown gender than to men speaking. (And before we get excited and think that the "unknown gender" speakers are rejecting the gender binary, this category represents mostly dialogue attributed to a group, plus two unnamed individuals who are given dialogue and one sword.)

This matters because dialogue signifies several important things in The Silmarillion. First, in a pseudohistorical text like The Silmarillion, direct quotes mean that someone said something important enough to preserve in the historical record. Men, based on the data, are saying far more important things than women, at least in the various narrators' estimation. Next, dialogue is often a proxy to action: Characters debate, give directives, and make speeches. Dialogue also humanizes, and even though Tolkien rejects many modern literary techniques in The Silmarillion, he does use dialogue as a characterization technique. As I will show in future analyses, some characters are distinguishable based on how they speak.

Of course, the reduced dialogue of women in The Silmarllion is a direct effect of there being significantly fewer women than men: Women constitute only 19% of the named characters in The Silmarillion. Even given this, however, women speak less than we would expect.

When we look at character groups, there are notable differences, namely that women of the Ainur speak more than Mortal Human and Elven women do. (Only four Elven women and five Mortal Human women speak in The Silmarillion! Excuse me while I scream!) This was the thesis of the long-ago Inequality Prototype that spurred this data collection endeavor: The Valar, being prototypical, show an equal penchant for entering into the world based on gender: It is a 50/50 split. So we can't say that women have less desire to influence the world than men in the legendarium. When we see less action and fewer instances of dialogue among women, then, we have to ask why.

Complicating the data for the Ainur (overall, not just this set) is the fact that a big chunk of their dialogue occurs in the "Of Aulë and Yavanna" chapter that Christopher Tolkien wrote. I don't want to treat these data differently until I have the opportunity to collect more data on where dialogue outside this chapter comes from; for all I know, Christopher wrote most of it! (Actually, I know he didn't, but this chapter does illustrate how his additions can skew data for a particular group, in this case the Ainur.)

Another future area of inquiry will be the type or purpose of the dialogue and whether/how this varies based on gender. Characters speak for many reasons. Do women speak for different purposes than men?

If these data illustrate anything to me, it is the importance of fanworks in amplifying the voices of women characters who we know existed and know said and did things that mattered. We are being given a historical record much like our own Modern-earth historical record: biased toward the contributions of some over others. Only we can fix that.

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This is part of my ongoing project The Silmarillion: Who Speaks? The data is available under a CC license for others who wish to play with it: View the data | Copy the data

[psstwantsomecheese]

Shout out to Fingon for being the true MVP carrying the entire Noldor war effort in Valinor. Like imagine if he didn't want to go. Sorry Feanor but speeches can only get you so far Fingolfin won't come without his son, Finarfin dips either way and I doubt Finrod was gonna follow Feanor if not only his father but uncle, cousins and brothers choose to stay. Galadriel MAYBE but you know she's immediately just gonna ditch them the second they land in Losgar all this to say

damn Maedhros' pussy must've been enchanted–

[saurons-pr-department]

“Hector!” says Brad Pitt.

“Very Fingolfin,” says I.

[aureentuluva70]

Every single one of the Dwarven fathers was created with a female counterpart. All except Durin.

We know that Durin must have had children as his line exists even by the time of the Hobbit and Lotr. So who was his spouse then?

Here's my theory/headcanon: Durin married a Maia. Or maybe an elf. But I personally prefer a maia. Extra points if she's a Maia of Yavanna. So all of their children and descendants are half-dwarf half-maiar.

[hickeygender]

if you're reading a classic or well-belovèd older release in your free time and really want to get the most out of it, i highly HIGHLY recommend looking up podcasts, reading guides, and/or youtube videos on the book you're working through! i did so with the silmarillion with the first episodes of the prancing pony podcast and am currently making my way through les misérables while listening to the les misérables reading companion podcast by briana lewis and plan on moving to shakespeare or maybe the hobbit afterwards and dude. DUDE. when you get to listen to people who Know a text back to front and who can point out the themes and details and background info that may have gone over your head on the first reading, you get SO much more out of it!! read the parts they speak on, listen to them speak, and then go back and annotate or take notes over things you may have missed. actually engaging with other people's takes on the texts you read while reading them is so so fulfilling and makes the experience a million times better! also - ANNOTATE. i PROMISE you'll get so much out of annotating!! buy a cheap paperback copy and write all over that bitch!!! legit this method has changed how i engage with popular texts!!!