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hosiesameena · 21 days ago

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only love is all maroon

"It was hard to say, however, when exactly she knew. Like, she’d always known, because anyone who even looked at them could see the tie between their souls, but there had been moments, small and insignificant in that second that when layered together painted a picture she could not unsee."

or; The evolution of Brittana from the perspective of Quinn Fabray.

chapters: 1/1

rating: T

pairings: brittany/santana

characters: quinn fabray, santana lopez, brittany pierce, minor rachel berry

tags: brittana from quinn’s pov, somewhat introspective, implied lesbian quinn fabray, blink and you’ll miss it faberry, but it’s there!, young brittana, lots of feelings, internalized homophobia

ao3 link: https://archiveofourown.org/works/59989144

When Santana is forced to come out to everyone their senior year of high school, she doesn’t tell Quinn – or at least not explicitly.

The day the commercial airs, Quinn invites Santana and Brittany over to her house. They sit in her basement and down bags of chips they know they’ll pay for at practice next week. They don’t turn on any live TV, instead they watch movies on DVD until the late hours of the night. Brittany falls asleep first, curled around Santana, who runs an absent-minded hand through her hair. Quinn watches them, boldly, and Santana doesn’t shrink from her gaze. Instead, she smiles softly, and Quinn smiles back.

Later, when Quinn and Santana finally lay down to go to sleep and turn off the movies, Santana turns to her. She can’t see her face, but she can imagine her expression. She wonders if one day it’ll be mirrored on her own.

“I really like her,” Santana whispers in the thick cover of darkness. “Actually, I love her.”

“I know.”

“When?”

Quinn doesn’t know the right way to answer that. She doesn’t think Santana would like her answer — she wouldn’t like it if someone told her this either — but her love has always been plastered across her face. Santana has always worked tirelessly to hide her feelings, even if it meant being labeled a bitch, to keep herself safe. You can’t hide some things though.

“Freshman year, that Cheerios party. I saw you two in the bathroom,” Quinn half-lies. She did see them then. But that wasn’t when she knew.

Quinn Fabray has known Santana Lopez and Brittany Pierce were in love for as long as she can remember.

Or, well, more accurately, as long as she can remember being Quinn Fabray. When she transferred to McKinley at the start of her Freshman year, she knew a spot on the elusive Cheerios was waiting for her. She had become the sort of girl who did not ask things, or want for them, she simply had them. So she got a spot on the team and when she read her name on the list she just shrugged, and turned back to the other wide-eyed, squealing girls and appraised them in all their brazen fulfilled desire with mild disinterest.

Only one other girl was silent, her frown deep despite her name – Santana, she recalled from tryouts – being on the list, as if she’d expected it to be higher, scrawled across the very top. Quinn saw a familiar glint in her eyes, something she recognized. Something raw and hungry and built , not given. So she knew she was the same as her, in the ways that mattered. They had fought and clawed to be where they were and they knew they would only continue to rise because they had to. There was no other choice.

A lithe blonde bound over, her face cheery, and Quinn watched as her pinky linked with Santana’s like they’d done it a million times. Maybe they had. Interesting , was all Quinn thought. Santana shifted, until half her face was shadowed from the fluorescents, so she was fully facing her, and let out one, small smile, reserved only for the other girl. When she cocked her head and the lights of the locker room fully illuminated her face again, it was like it had never been there at all.

Quinn liked that. She didn’t relate to the other girls her age who wore their hearts plainly on their sleeves and embarrassed themselves where anyone could see. She preferred to have emotions in a controlled setting – nobody wants to see their idol snotty-faced and red as they cry over a dumb boy. And that’s what she needed. To be their idol. To be on the top of that pyramid, both on the Cheerios and at McKinley as a whole. She knew she would have both.

And she did.

Later on, when they’d become the Unholy Trinity, Quinn knew the ins and outs of Santana and Brittany like the back of her hand. While Brittany was sort of the human embodiment of what left a sour taste in Quinn’s mouth – bubbly, kind to everyone, and not afraid to cry in front of a room full of girls – she also sort of admired her for it. On Brittany, it worked, because you could tell she meant every word she said – and if she hated you, you’d know. She could appreciate the honesty at least. Plus, Santana had threatened to cut her the first, and only, time she laughed at Brittany for getting overly excited.

So if it made her a hypocrite to judge other girls for their emotions and still be friends with Brittany, she didn’t actually give a fuck.

Someone once asked Quinn, later, if she and Santana and Brittany were even actually friends. She supposed it was a fair question. They stepped on each other’s backs to ascend higher and higher and just laughed when they left the others below them. They were clawed skin and headaches from yanking each other's ponytails, but they were also a heap of body warmth collapsed together on a bed, drunk, and fizzy, jabbing fingers wiping sweat-smeared mascara from beneath each other’s eyes.

They were everything to each other in the way that made them best friends but also terrible friends. They were closer than close. But Quinn also knew that Brittany was everything to Santana in a way she would never be. She didn’t think Santana knew, even, but Quinn could read them like a book after years forged in fire together.

It was hard to say, however, when exactly she knew. Like, she’d always known, because anyone who even looked at them could see the tie between their souls, but there had been moments, small and insignificant in that second that when layered together painted a picture she could not unsee.

There was the first Cheerios practice, when Coach Sylvester reamed out Brittany for forgetting a hair tie. Quinn saw the way Santana bit down on her lip so hard a deep, maroon-y red pearled around the white of her teeth. The next day, in the locker room, when Brittany inevitably had forgotten a hair tie again, Santana pulled one off her wrist silently – she’d been wearing two.

Then there was Christmas, freshman year still, when they had one day off of practice – even though school was closed for two weeks, they still had Cheerios – and all three of them had a sleepover and trekked out into the snow in the middle of the night to make snow angels. The moon was heavy and full, and the sky glowed pink and orange with the promise of fresh snow in the morning. Brittany tilted her face up to the sky, tongue out like she might catch a snowflake.

“It’s not even snowing right now,” Quinn had said.

Santana glared at her and told Brittany to close her eyes and focus really hard. Then, while she was doing so, Santana scooped some snow off the ground and stood on her tippy toes to reach above Brittany’s face and gently let a little bit filter through her gloved fingers. Brittany laughed as each flake touched her tongue, then turned and looked at Santana with the silver of the moon glistening in her blue eyes.

Quinn felt like maybe she was intruding, felt like she should turn and give them some space. But she couldn’t. She couldn’t look away.

“There could’ve been, like, unicorn pee on that snow, San,” she said, humor lacing her words.

“Hey!” Santana had said, holding her hands up and laughing. “That wasn’t me! It was snowing for a second!”

“Right,” Brittany said, as she hip-bumped Santana, sending her giggling as she stumbled through the snow.

Santana never giggled like that at school, or really anywhere, other than when she was with Brittany, and it was easy to forget how truly young they were. Quinn wondered sometimes, late at night, if she had made a mistake. By the time the morning light burned the dew off the grass in her front yard, however, she remembered why she had done everything she had. Why she could never go back.

So it scared her, a lot more than she’d admit, the way Santana and Brittany acted together. She knew they could get away with a lot just from the red shells and skirts they donned in the halls every day, but that protection only extended so far. It scared her that she sometimes thought that maybe her and Santana were more alike than she’d ever initially imagined. She could barely admit that to herself, refusing to accept it. She had a lot of practice with that, it wasn’t hard.

But either way, she knew she would be better than Santana because she knew how far she could fall so, subsequently, she knew how far she could push without toppling over her carefully crafted world. She settled instead, when things felt too overwhelming, for clutching her cross necklace in her fist and squeezing until her skin was indented and bruised.

She knew Santana would not be able to control herself much longer, no matter how many boys she let stick their tongues down her throat at parties. And she worried she’d be caught in that fallout.

A lot of people thought Brittany was really dumb. There were times Quinn would be inclined to believe that too, but then she’d do something or say something astute and it would send you reeling.

2 months after that night in the snow, as Valentine’s day rolled around, when she first set her sights on Finn – the perfect cheerleader needed the perfect football player boyfriend – Quinn, who had stayed after school to practice more until her legs were aching and she could barely catch her breath, walked past an art classroom, then stopped when she recognized Brittany sitting inside.

She was cutting hearts out of green cardstock, nodding along to some song only she could hear.

“Brittany?” Quinn called, stepping into the room.

She looked up at her, tilting her head to the side and smiling, like she’d been expecting her.

“Hi!”

“What are you doing?”

She hummed noncommittally. She cut into a new piece of paper.

“Waiting for Santana,” she decided on, finally.

“Where is she?” Quinn asked, brow furrowing.

“With Puck. Behind the bleachers.”

“Why?”

Brittany looked up from her work again, cocking a brow. “Why do you think, silly?”

Quinn knew the two had been fooling around recently, Santana’s own answer to the same problem Quinn was beginning to face. She just didn’t think Brittany knew.

“And you’re… okay with that?” Quinn asked, cautiously. The last thing she needed was for her to burst into tears – a very real possibility.

“Of course,” Brittany said. “I’m not in charge of her. I’m not like a mean Santa Claus forcing all the elves in the North Pole to work, even if they’d totally rather be doctors, or something.”

Quinn shook her head, losing the thread of the conversation. Brittany seemed to notice, setting her pink, kid-sized scissors down on the table and shifting to more fully face Quinn.

“Things are… not easy for Santana,” she said, solemnly, like a eulogy. “They will never be easy,” she looked away for a second, considering. “Even though people sometimes say she’s easy…” she shook her head and continued. “Sometimes, people have to do things they don’t really, in their hearts, want to do. I want Santana to be happy. She’s not ready for things to be hard yet, and that’s okay. She can’t know who she is yet. But I know her. And so it doesn’t matter what she does because nobody else understands why she has to do what she does.”

Quinn was silent.

“Well,” Brittany continued, fixing a pointed stare on Quinn. “Some people do understand. But things can’t be hard for them yet, either.”

Quinn swallowed down a wave of nausea and gripped her necklace, harder, harder, harder.

“What are you doing with all those hearts?” was the response she settled on. She couldn’t manage anything else right then. Brittany, to her credit, took the subject change in stride.

“Green’s Santana’s favorite color,” she said. “But don’t tell her I told you. She likes people to think it’s red. I’m gonna put them in her locker on Valentine’s Day.”

“Oh,” Quinn said. “That’s thoughtful.”

That’s when she knew that the feelings weren’t one-sided.

The end of Freshman year, the senior Cheerios threw an unsanctioned party at one of their houses and invited the whole team. Quinn, Santana, and Brittany arrived together and were instantly swept into the chaos – the invite list spiraled at some point until it felt like the entire school was packed into one single-family house.

Someone shoved a cup into her hand and Quinn gratefully downed it, not even wincing at the burn. At some point, she got separated from Santana and Brittany, but she didn’t mind. The drinks continued to flow and she stumbled around the rooms, laughing like no one else could hear her. In the kitchen, there was a gaggle of kids Quinn knew were capital-N Not popular. She wondered when they got there. She wondered if she should be mean to them or kick them out, but with liquor coursing through her veins, she couldn’t remember why exactly that would be a good idea.

There was a girl with them, dressed in the stupidest outfit she’d ever seen – a plaid skirt and knee socks and a god-awful sweater. But she locked eyes with Quinn and didn’t look away, like she wasn’t scared and Quinn found herself daunted, recoiling. She wasn’t used to this reaction. And she couldn’t fully tell how that made her feel – but mostly it made her feel like she needed to get away, fast, before she did something really stupid. So she did.

She stumbled upstairs, searching for an unoccupied bathroom and preferably one not already riddled with vomit and empty solo cups. She slipped past an “Off Limits!” sign taped to a door, into what must have been the master bedroom. It was dark, but the attached bathroom had a light on, shining white in the black of the rest of the room. She cursed under her breath and started to leave, before the silhouettes of two familiar builds slid into her view.

It was Santana and Brittany, backlit by the light-up vanity. Santana trailed a hand over Brittany’s cheek, tucking her fingers firmly beneath her chin. Then, she leaned in and kissed Brittany – hard. Brittany kissed her back, wrapping her arms around Santana’s waist and pulling her closer as the kiss deepened. One of them – it was impossible to tell who – made a small sound and Quinn realized she hadn't breathed once. She had to get out of there, and fast.

She slipped out of the bedroom and gently shut the door behind her. She leaned against the wall, everything spinning. She’d known – but that was when she knew it was more than just pining, secret, don’t-touch-them-with-a-10-foot-pole feelings . A million Bible verses whizzed through her mind, but in her drunken state, all that stuck was the girl in the kitchen downstairs and a resounding Good for them.

Summer came and went and suddenly it was Sophomore year. Things were different – Quinn was different. Just like she feared that first week of Cheerios, she fell. But it was okay. She knew how to build herself up again. She got what she needed, really, for a moment. She had Finn and then lost him. She had sex with Puck because she wondered how it felt for Santana (it made her feel empty, she realized). She joined Glee Club with that girl from the party. Things happen the way they’re supposed to, she decided.

Junior year she reclaims her throne with a sort of mild satisfaction. Still, like she did all the way back in Freshman year, she watches Brittany and Santana, still all linked pinkies and skin brushing in the halls, but things aren’t different for them yet.

She decides that’s okay. She thinks they’ll figure it out one day.

She thinks she will too.

#brittana #fanfic #faberry #ao3 #my fic #glee #oneshot #brittana fic #inspo creds to forevrwillast on twitter!

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yuseirra · 6 days ago

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THIS IS IT THOUGH!!! THIS CAN EXPLAIN EVERYTHING WEIRD IN THE STORY!!!! LISTEN, I DON'T GET WHAT THIS STORY WOULD BE IF THIS ISN'T IT!!

How else are you supposed to explain the plot at this point????? I'm telling you, I think I’m pretty close here, right? Otherwise, it all just doesn’t add up. EVERYTHING ADDS UP IF WHAT I CAME UP IS RIGHT... How are they going to do it? How is this story going to make sense at all if they don't bring back the idea that gods are taking part in the tale because there's already been hints and supernatural elements have actively coming into play within the story.

I just woke up at 1am in the morning and started typing because this REALLY bugs me, it's so obvious to my eyes. Yup, it's so weird for me too, (to resort to the idea of gods to understand everything) but I really would have no idea just what onk if the truth is not even remotely close to what I came up with. The rest of this post is machine-translated. Please pardon me if it sounds a bit clunky, it's due to that reason.

People aren’t really taking my words seriously—maybe because the content sounds too far-fetched.

However, since chapter 144 established that there are "gods" (plural) who don't know they’re gods, shouldn’t we take that information seriously and try to interpret it? That chapter wasn’t even that long ago;; it’s a clear piece of foreshadowing. Based on what I’ve seen in chapter 160, it seems like the white star = love and the black star = lies. So, if there’s a god who loves humans = white star, and a god who loves absurdity and irrationality = black star, it makes sense.

The main characters inherited "eyes" from their parents, with "stars" embedded in them. Therefore, the character associated with the white star = god who loves humans = Ai, and the character associated with the black star = god who loves absurdity and irrationality = Kamiki.

But Kamiki originally had a white star, and the black star is a color that has been "tainted" (chapter 140). This implies that he was originally a different type of entity.

There are three named gods mentioned directly in the story. First, Tsukuyomi, whose role as a god is just openly stated. Second, Amaterasu, whom Ruby self-identifies as in chapter 3. Third, the god Ame-no-Uzume, who is the deity of the shrine that various characters visit together. Ai is said to have been chosen by the god of entertainment, so that god could be either Ame-no-Uzume or her husband. The missions of the main characters are related to Ai as said in chapter 3.

This shrine worships both Ame-no-Uzume and her husband, Sarutahiko. Sarutahiko is a god of light who is described as noble and guides people on the right path.

So, Aqua’s insistence on killing Kamiki, who’s "corrupting Ruby’s future" in the later parts of the story, could make sense if Kamiki is indeed that god and has fallen. The things he’s done seem strange in a way that’s almost unnatural. His actions, even minor ones, always end up leading to disastrous consequences, as though twisted and warped. I think it’s because he was once that god, but he’s fallen from grace.

In the lyrics of "Mephisto," the lines "I forgot who I was!" and "Remember who you lived with" seem almost explicitly written for a character who was once a god but no longer realizes it. Given that the song is about wanting to reunite with a deceased lover (probably), and with the last two lines just having to be from Kamiki’s perspective, that entire song seems to be Kamiki’s song. It talks about gathering "light," so we can infer his actions of going after people with the star eyes must stem from a desire to see Ai again and to be like her, needing "light" in some way.

The same ideas continue and extend in "Fatal," expressing a desire to receive "your light" or "your love" from someone (likely Ai). The need to be filled, to be whole, comes from a lack of "love"—from not having Ai. This character has had a strong desire for love, being told as a child that he was hollow, which implies that the love (Ai) he needed was something fundamental for him. He himself recalls that if only he had Ai, he could endure anything. And I think that’s true. But with Ai gone and even murdered, he’s left lost, searching desperately for love—for Ai (chapter 160). The reason he fell and became the black star, unable to function, is because he lacks "light." That "light"—the white star—is described as eyes that convey love, which Aqua explicitly calls out in chapter 160. Kamiki’s eyes were originally supposed to be like that too, but they twisted because he didn’t have love.

It doesn’t seem like a normal person would sing "Fatal" or "Mephisto." There’s something strange mixed into those lyrics. They even describe "falling from grace," which just screams Kamiki, so why don’t people believe it? I’ve been saying this ever since the song came out, but nobody believes me..;; I wouldn’t even be saying this if there weren’t foreshadowing in the story.

If Kamiki really is the black star, then there could be some interesting interpretations. Every time the main characters use the black star, they actually end up getting what they want. The black star has immense power, almost like a reality-warping ability. If Kamiki is indeed the father of both main characters, then it makes sense that he would watch over and help them from the sidelines. In my opinion, this person was originally noble and not inherently evil. He even expressed having some kind of paternal love, so he’s likely done things for the kids in his own way. As a god who grants wishes with Ame-no-Uzume, he might have been the one who granted the wishes when the characters went to the shrine to pray.

Yet, despite their wishes being granted, the results were devastating. Kamiki’s ability to lead people to their futures is clearly distorted. In chapter 147, he even asks Ruby what her true wish is, and in the English version, the god he mentions that'd listen to her is referred to as "he." Kamiki, who wanted to know and fulfill his daughter’s wish, is likely that god. That’s why he asked her what she wanted and wanted to grant her wish. He even tells Aqua they have the same eyes and goes on to explain it—that’s because he was the one who gave Aqua those eyes! As a father, in his own way, he’s done a lot for them. He doesn’t disregard his children; he’s just consumed by thoughts of Ai, thinking that he’d be fine with dying if he could just meet her again. Since he also blames himself for Ai’s death, he even influenced the kids to come after him and kill him. When Aqua is overtaken by the black star and can’t die yet, he has a firm belief that his father is the culprit, as though Kamiki gave him a reason to live.

Ai worried about him because she’s his wife. From what I see, Ai was born first, then Kamiki a year later. I have an idea that Ai reincarnated as a human first and Kamiki followed her out of concern. There’s even a line in the song "Idol" about the reincarnation of a "star." Ai is the reincarnation of something, and the most fitting match is Ame-no-Uzume, who has a similar personality to Ai and is famously known as a god of entertainment. This god has no hesitation in expressing herself, but the authors twisted this trait by making Ai someone who wants to show herself but ends up lying instead. Ai asks someone to help guide Kamiki if he loses his way. From this, I already got a sense of who Kamiki was—he’s a god who originally guided others on the right path.

If this isn’t the case, the how can this story be explained at all? Even down to the legend of Sarutahiko having drowned, the parallels are all there!

There are also two myths associated with Amaterasu and Ame-no-Uzume that match this story. One is the tale where Amaterasu hides in a cave, and Ame-no-Uzume lures her out with a dance, after Amaterasu’s brother Susanoo frightens her into hiding. The second is the myth of the Heavenly Descent, where Sarutahiko, who initially opposed Ame-no-Uzume's descent to earth but later married her, guides Amaterasu’s grandson to earth.

These roles align with Ruby’s brother, Aqua, and Ai’s partner (potential husband), Kamiki.

So, there are three main sources to understand Kamiki:

Content from the manga

Songs. "Fatal" and "Mephisto" match this character perfectly. I felt it the moment "Fatal" was released and have been writing about it since then. It’s real.

The myth of Sarutahiko.

This manga is supposed to have mystery elements, but I feel this character is the most mysterious out of it all. After chapter 154, I was like, "Wait, Ai and Kamiki were both mutual?" and that sparked a huge interest, so I dug into it, and my interpretation aligns best with the foreshadowing! If the author didn’t put in the god theme just for fun, then this explains everything! But no one believes me seriously! I’m just drawing from the content that’s there—if it’s not this, then what else could it be? It feels like he does have some kind of reality-warping ability (per the manga). He might even be able to grant others’ wishes. When you consider the lyrics of the songs, his motives make sense—he’s going mad from longing to see Ai and to receive her love. The way he’s described makes "love" seem almost like a life-sustaining force for him. It seems like he couldn’t return to the white star without it. When he temporarily became the white star upon seeing Ruby, it was probably because he received the light of love. Without Ai, he couldn’t find someone who could love him, so he’s lost his function as a god, twisted, and fallen. He should’ve guided people down the right path, but he’s broken, causing everyone around him to fall apart too. He said he didn’t want to hurt anyone—at least, in the beginning, I think that was true. The song even mentions that he didn’t know who he was. He must’ve realized it after Ai died, and as in "Fatal," he embraced his destiny and began using his powers. And if you look at the mythological references, they explain various aspects—like Kamiki’s unique powers and the story of how he and Ai met.

It’s not like that? This can’t be? At this point, could that even be possible?

Going down this path would tie everything together: the black and white stars in the eyes, Kamiki’s bizarre deus ex machina-like abilities, Aqua's reasons for going to such lengths, the protagonists' missions, those strange lyrics, and every other clue. The story’s entire message would make sense. There’s no way it could be anything else, or else none of it adds up. Kamiki isn’t a regular person… He’s truly strange. Even up to the last chapters, there’s no clear revelation of what he’s actually been doing. With this explanation, though, all those hints come together, creating a pretty compelling narrative—every piece is already there! Like, if he were a god originally governing the entertainment world, and he’s hit hard by its darkness, he ends up in this messed-up state, and after losing Ai, his wife, he goes mad. So Ruby and Aqua receive their missions, similar to the mythology of replacing the Sun God—Ruby is meant to replace him as the next Sun God, and Aqua’s role is to kill him. Ai left a message asking for her husband to be saved. But seeing how hopeless his situation is, Aqua drowns him.

And, you know, he was originally a noble god—a genuinely kind one! This transformation wasn’t fundamentally his fault. Going in this direction, the story could actually have a lesson about living kindly. There could be a moral here if they go this route. A moral! Otherwise, it just… doesn’t lead anywhere.

HELP I HONESTLY CAN'T UNDERSTAND THIS STORY OTHERWISE AT THIS POINT... IT CAN BE SAVED IF IT'S LIKE THIS, TO A DEGREE, IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING REALLY WELL

#oshi no ko #oshi no ko spoilers #hikaai #hikaru kamiki #ai hoshino #aqua hoshino #ruby hoshino #this series makes my head hurt #if this this then it CAN take away a message and everything can have some coherency #because think about it... how else can you explain the star eyes and the weird stuff about the twin's dad and they lyrics #everything's already there...#spoilers #oshi no theories #this is it. I really don't know what to make of this work if this isn't #I studied kamiki so hard since july and that's what I can make out of him #I tried REALLY hard..#long post

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minecraftrelatedrandomness · 2 years ago

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Connecting the Dots: The Jailbird Backstory, and Pre/Early-SMP c!Quackity Analysis and Theories

Previously on the c!Quackity canon backstory analysis, we laid the conclusion that he technically has two canon backstories, which may or may not be contradictory or overlapping, depending on interpretation. [AO3] [Tumblr]

Last time, I went into the MCM backstory more, since it had a greater impact on the lore and is generally considered "hard canon" [Video summary here]. This time, however, I'll be looking specifically into the 'Jailbird' backstory, as I call it, AKA the "juvenile detention" one, which is more "soft canon" but has a surprisingly large amount of detail to it—even more than I initially thought when I made my previous post, since I started to dig through more early c!Q VODs to get more information on that initial backstory.

This post primarily serves as a summary for the information I found regarding the 'Jailbird' backstory, VOD by VOD.

So, everyone, sit back and relax, because I already did the hard work for you over the course of months. Oh, and this post refers to the characters, not content creators (unless specified otherwise).

CW: Child neglect, imprisonment, mental health/PTSD, self-neglect, substance abuse (including by a minor).

[Click here to read this analysis/theory post on AO3]

Background

Quackity claims to have been stuck in juvenile detention, allegedly called "SMP Juvie" [B, 10:50], for a contradictory amount of time: 10 years [A, 1:35:20], 41 years [A, 1:36:40], or 43 years [A, 1:46:25], all claims in the same livestream.

However, the "41 years" one was claimed just after Tubbo said he lost ~41 levels of XP during Tommy's 'test-mugging' for the Cartel about 6 minutes previously, so I don't know if that claim is to be taken seriously or not; besides, tapping into the Duck theory, 41-43 'duck years' is about 10 'human years' anyway, so we're sticking with the "10 years" claim for this analysis.

Since we know c!Quackity is similar in age to cc!Quackity through various livestreams in Season 1, it's safe to assume that he's ~19 as of Season 1, and ~9 when he got sentenced.

The reasons behind his imprisonment have never been explicitly stated. When asking Dream to whitelist Q onto the SMP, Tommy claims this reason was because Q got into "fun juvie" for "having too much fun" [C, 0:43], but it's not confirmed whether this is a cover story for a more serious crime, a metaphorically true reason, or a complete lie in that Tommy doesn't know the 'crime' either. Some of the theories for how Q ended up there have varied, but are not confirmed in any way to be canon:

Drug-related offenses: Posited by @lasnevadaslaborunion. In one livestream, Q claimed to have "got off that shit years ago" in response to Karl giving him 'heroin' without him knowing. [E, 4:25] This "years ago" is non-specific, so it might go back a decade… and fair enough, in some countries, possession of hard drugs like heroin can land some pretty hefty prison sentences. Whatever way it goes, it still implies exposure to hard drugs as a child… yikes. (Note: This is not my personal theory on how the heroin thing happened. See below for that.)

Misadventures in other video games (e.g. Roblox, Club Penguin Island, etc.): This one is a little meta, but before his MC-related content, including the DSMP, cc!Quackity was quite infamous for raiding various video games, to the point he's part of the Trope Pantheon as an ambiguous-ranking 'deity' of the Internet Counterattack trope (yes, really). It's possible that his character counterpart did something similar at a young age… and ended up behind bars. It probably helps justify and give context to the 'imprisoned for "having too much fun"' excuse Tommy gave, as stated above. And Toontown-affiliated backstories would fit right into this category, regardless of what he did — the game's villains are fun-haters, after all.

A Disclaimer on Realism

Now, here's a little question before we dive deeper: can 9-year-olds be sentenced to juvenile detention in the first place?

The answer depends on where you live. Some countries have a minimum age for children being prosecuted. The US apparently does not, but that's an argument for another day, and one that is unrelated to Minecraft roleplay. My point here is that the aforementioned minimum age is 14 or older in several countries, and even in the US, most convicted juvenile offenders tend to be in their older teenage years. [Source]

Also, according to many articles I had to look up for this post, many juvenile offenders aren't even sent to jail, they usually have other, less severe sentences, like probation or home confinement or fostering, so the odds of a 9-year-old child ending up in juvie is actually pretty unlikely, realistically speaking, if legal at all.

…And for a sentence of 10 years or more? As stated above, the reason little!Q ended up there at all was never mentioned.

However, since that did happen in soft DSMP canon, I'd have to say… the poor lad would have basically spent most of his childhood incarcerated. I wonder if he still remembers anything about his life before that point canonically.

Environment and Trauma

Even though nothing is actually shown, there's a surprisingly large amount of descriptions of the environment in the juvenile detention centre, for lack of a better term, in the early livestreams.

When Q first joined the SMP, his first remark was on the fresh air, probably because Spawn is still a distance away from the warzone, and that he felt "alive again". [C, 3:13]

There's also this line: "I didn't have the smile in juvie", likely referring to his now-iconic :] smile. [C, 4:00] Oh, and canonically confirmed PTSD. [D, 16:40]

The interior of the prison itself is unstated, but is implied to be made of grey stone-adjacent blocks, if Q's reaction to setting his spawn in the Courthouse in the Sky is any indication. [D, 22:10] So… I'm speculating its interior either looks like the Cops and Robbers map or… this map cc!Q did in 2019 (minus the escaping), or something like that.

For whatever reason, Q seemed to have claustrophobia, and may or may not have been triggered into a panic attack and a mental breakdown and a half. [C, 11:30]

He claimed to have a lot of allergic reactions, but to what exactly, it was never mentioned. [C, 15:15]

Q might have also tried to escape on at least one occasion. At one point, he offers to show Tommy the "blueprints" for his Cartel plan [A, 1:16:40], but doesn't want others to know about them because they were "a secret where [he comes] from". And then there's this line: "If someone leaks a blueprint… things– all I'm gonna say is things don't go well for those who leak the blueprints, Tommy." Tommy did actually leak the 'blueprint' for a few seconds [A, 1:17:53], but in the context of juvenile detention, as we'll discuss in more detail later on… I'd suppose things wouldn't go well for people who leak prison blueprints, if you choose to interpret the line this way. In the same livestream, he might have tried to break out with a screwdriver, but clearly that didn't work. [A, 1:38:30]

Q recalls apparently breaking his legs like "the second night of juvie" [C, 23:04], most likely from falling, but honestly most of us are concerned how this even happened, and which incompetent nincompoop was running the place to allow children to get injured so easily. So… either the structure of the detention centre violates health and safety regulations, or the 'guards' (for lack of a better word) are shit at their jobs, or both.

In the middle of planning out their heist and preparing to 'test-mug' Tubbo, Q claimed to have been clean from 'drugs' for "30 minutes" at one point. [A, 1:25:40] If this is true, this implies somehow he managed to have access to whatever 'drugs' he was using at that point. This also possibly lines up with the 'heroin' incident mentioned above… which I theorize would be correlated to some other information I found — heroin is "used in the palliative management of bone fractures and other trauma, especially in children" [Wikipedia]. In layman's terms, it basically means heroin is sometimes used as pain relief. I think you might be able to connect the dots from here, but that's just my theory.

A final note in regards to Q in the early days — he appears to have a tendency of neglecting his personal health, which goes from him joining the DSMP all the way into the Manburg era. He walks around on low health and hunger fairly often, usually as a result of taking damage and never healing up, and even when he doesn't have food on him, he doesn't ask others to give him some so he can regen. [e.g. D, 28:50] Heck, this is how Niki got arrested just after Schlatt's election — she 'hit' Q to snap him out of a breakdown and a half and ended up killing him (non-canonically) because he was on half a heart and insufficient hunger to regen at the time. This tendency is recurring to the point one might even call it a bad habit. I don't know if his past has anything to do with this, but one might argue it is a manifestation of "reckless or self-destructive behavior" under the symptoms of PTSD.

Shared Past with TommyInnit?

Q and Tommy seemed to at least know each other and be friends even before Q's official first appearance, but how exactly is unstated.

In Q's first appearances, Tommy has claimed to only know of him as the best in the Cartel business and teamed up with him, but considering their already amicable relationship even in their 'first' canon conversation, as well as the fact that Tommy gets RL Given Name Privileges with Q [A, 1:32:15], this seems unlikely.

The two had a 'conversation' about having "met in high school". Since it was more likely than not a cover story for the Cartel, its legitimacy is doubted. [A, 1:30:00]

Tommy was apparently the one to get him out of juvenile detention, somehow. [C, 16:05]

Relationship with MCM Backstory

As cited in the previous analysis post, I raised some suspicions that the M!necraft Mondays backstory may have been retconned from the 'Jailbird' backstory as the timelines for the two don't appear to line up. However, I would like to go back and disprove this suspicion, as upon closer examination, the VODs themselves suggest that the two backstories coexist.

On his first livestream on the DSMP, Quackity mentions having met Technoblade before during MCM and claimed that Techno was scared of him (Jack didn't believe that) [D, 48:20].

Knowing what actually happened in MCM (links above), it's suggested that Q was highkey projecting his feelings in the moment, which would line up with his later behaviour.

Canonicity

Also in the previous analysis post, I also raised suspicions that the 'Jailbird' backstory is no longer considered canonical as a result of retcons. However, once again, I would go back and correct that this backstory is soft canon: the 'Jailbird' backstory is closely associated with the concept of the Cartel. The Phantom Membrane Cartel (PMC) was established during Q's second voice-only appearance on the server [B, 7:40], but the plans of the Cartel idea were first laid out the day prior, i.e. during Q's first voice-only appearance, and the PMC was simply a continuation of the initial Cartel plan [B, 3:35]. The PMC itself was later canonized officially as hard canon in Season 3 [F, 44:05]. As a result, the canonicity of the 'Jailbird' backstory is implied to be confirmed by association.

There are also possible hints towards the canonicity of this backstory in the first Las Nevadas stream. While passing by the minimum/moderate security holding cells on the way to visit Dream, Q makes a joke with Sam, asking if he might ever be put in one of the cells, and then saying "you know how I am" when Sam wasn't amused. [G, 1:00:50] Of course, this can just as easily be referring to Q's jokester nature, but one would wonder.

Oh, and as a bonus, Tiger the cat is implied to be canon too via association, if you interpret it that way. [B, 5:45]

Livestreams/Clips used as sources and references

A. "TommyInnit & Quackity do crimes on Dream's Minecraft Server..." (TommyVODS, 5 August 2020)

B. "TommyInnit & Quackity DO A HEIST on the Dream SMP" (TommyVODS, 6 August 2020)

C. "Quackity joins Dream SMP w/ TommyInnit" (TommyVODS, 11 August 2020)

D. "Quackity Joins The Dream SMP" (QuackityVODS, 17 August 2020)

E. "Karl And Quackity Having Love PROBLEMS! DREAM SMP" (Angry Thomas, 12/13 November 2020) — clipped from a Karl VOD from 12 November 2020

F: "Tommy Leaves Prison with Dream." (TommyVODS, 12 March 2021)

G: "Quackity Visits Dream In Prison" (QuackityVODS, 16 March 2021)

Related posts for reference

This post by @lasnevadaslaborunion, which reminded me to look into Q's backstory even more, and provides the talking point for Source G

This post by @stillnotfivefoot with additions from @marmalade-mir, which kick-started this backstory investigation in the first place

This Legal Beagle article ("What Happens at a Juvenile Detention Center?" by Hilary Ferrand, 5 February 2020) which is really helping me with a fanfic involving this backstory, and as a result, this analysis post.

#aqua analyzes c!quackity from the dsmp #dream smp #dream smp analysis #quackity #dream smp theory #long post #cw trauma #cw mental health #tw drugs #tw self neglect #/rp /dsmp #dsmp jailbird backstory #my post #aqua's mcytblr resources

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sassykattery · 2 years ago

Text

Reignition, Pt. 3

Welcome to Part 3. We're already slightly over halfway through this chapter, so get ready.

CW: MC is afab, uses she/her pronouns. MC is human. MC is single. No real warnings for this part, mostly storyline.

Themes: infatuation, crushes, relationships, jealousy, pining.

Characters: Diavolo, MC="you", Barbatos, Lucifer, all brothers implied or explicitly mentioned.

Minors and ageless blogs DNI.

18+ only

Masterlist

Enjoy~

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"Checkmate," you said triumphantly and held out your hand to Diavolo. He smiled and took your hand in defeat. It was a few hours after you had texted the prince and having arrived at the castle shortly thereafter.

"Another rousing game, thank you MC," Diavolo replied, letting his hand linger with yours just a touch longer. Both of you pulled away at the same time and couldn't stop smiling.

"Indeed, I'm starting to wonder if you're losing your touch," you teased.

Diavolo scoffed, "I think you've just been taught too well, MC."

You mulled it over, "Actually, for someone who's been around as long as you have, I don't think I should be able to beat you."

"Are you implying I've been playing chess for a thousand years?"

"Is that how old you are?" you shot back, actually rather curious to the real answer, but also still joking.

Diavolo laughed and changed the subject, "Ready for dinner?"

You nodded eagerly and both of you went to the dining hall.

After another wonderfully-made dinner, both of you went back to the common room and played Devil Kart, and things got rather rambunctious after an hour.

"I can't believe you! You threw that banana right there on purpose! So that I'd run into it!" you squealed.

Diavolo laughed, "I most certainly did not!"

"Now you're going to get it!" you growled playfully. Devil Kart brought out your competitive side in an awful way.

After several more laps, Diavolo finished first, much to your dismay, and you playfully slapped your hand onto his chest, "You made me lose!" you shrilled.

Diavolo couldn't stop laughing at you, and you couldn't help it either; the two of you were a mess. Eventually, your hand rested on his bicep as you tried to stop laughing, only to look at each other and start laughing again. Once you both calmed down, you looked at him with a goofy grin to match his own.

The prince took notice of your hand as soon as you laid it on him, on his chest first, and now on his arm, and it made him feel joyous. He knew, at the least, your little touches meant you were comfortable with him. The extent of your comfort was still unknown, but he knew touching was a big step. He was a little sad when you took it away though, already missing your touch.

"MC, I had no idea you were so competitive," he mused to you.

Your eyes widened and you suddenly looked embarrassed. "Oh, I'm sorry. I know I get carried away..." you mumbled.

Diavolo shook his head with a smile, "Not at all, I find it rather charming, MC," he stated with an eyebrow wiggle. You chuckled behind your hand bashfully.

There was silence between you two again, and you leaned back into the sofa with a content sigh.

Just then, Barbatos walked in, and then you gave a less than content sigh, knowing what time it was.

"I know Barbatos, Diavolo has work to do and I should go," you said. Barbatos simply smiled and nodded, exiting the room wordlessly.

Diavolo also sighed, and not happily either. You stood, and so did Diavolo. Looking up at him, you held out your arms, offering a hug. The prince accepted immediately, and instead pulled you into him, both of you chuckling again.

Diavolo waved you and Barbatos goodbye, as his butler escorted you back home.

The Demon Lord went to his office and pulled out his paperwork but ended up just staring at it for some time, not being able to actually get any work done. At this point, it was hard for Diavolo to deny, you consumed his thoughts endlessly. It was worse after he just saw you too, almost forcing him to beg you to come back and be with him longer. Anytime he saw you at RAD, he found himself going back to his office and just staring out the window, wondering what you were doing or if you were having a good day.

And then there was another problem: he found you to be incredibly beautiful, sexy, enchanting, you name it. So, often times, he found himself awake late at night, looking through your photos on Devilgram thinking about all the ways he'd like to have you. Sometimes he just had pure intentions, like just wanting to hold you. Other times, he wondered what it'd be like to have you sprawled out beneath him, both of you moaning with unadulterated pleasure.

A flush crossed his cheeks with that last thought, and just then Barbatos returned to his office.

"My lord, are you alright? It looks as though you haven't done anything while I've been gone," Barbatos said.

"Barbatos, I think I have a problem," Diavolo stated, rubbing his face with his hand in frustration.

"And what would that be, young master?"

Diavolo stared at his desk, flustered. "I think I like MC, more than just a friend," he stated.

Barbatos gave a light chuckle, "You think I didn't know, my lord?" Diavolo gave his butler the side-eye.

"If I may, my lord, I've been observing you with MC for a while now, and it seems as though there's a connection," the butler said.

"You think she feels the same?" Diavolo asked.

"I don't think she would mind your advancements, that's all," Barbatos replied, and then left the Demon Lord to his thoughts.

It was quiet in the House when arrived that evening. Levi wasn't screaming at anything, Mammon wasn't getting in trouble or yelling for someone to cut him down from the ceiling, and everyone else seemed to be behaving.

Walking into your room, something felt off. It was as if something, or someone, had been in there, but when you looked around, it seemed like nothing was out of place. After a while, you gave up trying to figure out what happened and just got ready for bed. Thoughts of your time with Diavolo resurfaced, and you couldn't stop smiling as you went to the bathroom to take a shower.

Feeling refreshed, you walked into your bedroom, and again, it felt as though something was amiss. You felt uneasy, unsure of why exactly you felt this way, but you couldn't remain here. After getting into your pajamas, you went to Mammon's room and knocked.

He immediately answered, shirtless and just in his sweatpants. When he saw you, he immediately blushed, realizing he wasn't terribly decent.

"Yeah?" he said.

"Can I sleep in here?" you asked sheepishly.

"What's wrong- nevermind, c'mon," he said, opening the door wider for you to come in and then closing it. He steered you toward his bed and you tried to object,

"I can just sleep on the couch-"

"Nonsense, there's enough room," he grumbled. After some hesitation, you slid into the far side of the bed and got comfortable, laying on your back and looking up at the second-born.

He scoffed and got in on the other side. "Happy?" he asked.

"Thank you, Mammon, you're the best," you said sweetly.

"Don't go tellin' people about it, alright?" he said, rolling to his side to face away from you to hide his blush after your compliment.

You laid there for quite some time, just thinking. Truthfully, you felt safer now, but you couldn't get over how eerie your room felt.

When you woke up, you felt like a thousand lead weights were on you, but no, it was just the sleeping form of Mammon on top of you, his face buried in your chest.

Your eyes went wide when you saw this, and you froze, unsure if you should wake him up to move, or what to do about this rather precarious situation.

Trying to be subtle, you coughed, and he stirred. His hands landed on either side of your torso, above your waist. He nuzzled his face into your chest even more and finally opened his eyes. Picking up his head, he looked straight into your face, and the two of you stayed like that for a moment.

Mammon's eyes finally widened, comedically so, and he flailed around trying to get off of you, "Ack!"

Finally rolling off the bed, he stood and huffed, "What are ya doin' MC?!"

"I believe you were the one on top of me, Mammon," you growled back.

"Whatever!" he said, throwing his hands up and walking away. When you looked at the time, you realized breakfast should be ready, so you quickly got up and went to your room to get dressed, leaving Mammon behind to fume. Well, he was actually embarrassed and simultaneously remembering fondly how your breasts felt on his face.

Ready for the day, you hopped through the hallway and sat at the dining table.

"Oi! Where have you been MC? You know, some of us like having you around at dinner," Satan said as you filled your plate.

"Oh? Is that right, Satan?" you asked with a chuckle. Satan's gaze purposefully darted to Lucifer, and the eldest immediately bristled. You hadn't so much as looked at Lucifer since your argument. "Well, I apologize. I've been having dinner at the castle as of late," you replied.

"Oh? Why?" Belphie asked.

"I suppose Lord Diavolo and Barbatos enjoy my company," you said simply. "I've also been playing chess and video games with the Demon Lord when he has the time," you added.

Lucifer looked as though he could murder someone, felt that way too, but you continued to ignore him.

"Hmm, seems as though you've become rather special to them then, MC," Satan mused with a smirk.

"More than special, MC- ow!" Asmo started to say, and then you kicked his foot as you shot him a warning glance. He sighed and rolled his eyes. "Very special," he said in a monotone.

Lucifer tried to keep his eyes down to his own plate, but he couldn't help but steal glances at you. You were your typical self to everyone, except him. It was as if he were a ghost, or just simply did not exist in your mind anymore, treating him as if he were a painting on the wall, paying him no attention and not sparing any glances his way.

"Satan, I promise to still have dinner here. I don't want to overstay my welcome. I know they're busy and don't need to look after me twenty-four seven," you said. There was a slight jab in there toward the eldest, but again, you bypassed any looks with him in favor of looking to the brother that was speaking, unless it was him, then your plate was far more entertaining than anything in the room.

After breakfast, the day proceeded as normal, until you learned there was a Student Council meeting after classes.

There, Diavolo introduced the exchange program policies you had helped to develop, and he was looking for any last objections or changes to them before adding them to the handbook. There were some questions that you answered flawlessly. One such came from the eldest, to which, you answered as if he were anyone else, by still maintaining your cordial demeanor, hiding your disdain and hard feelings toward him. Everyone intimately more aware of the situation, namely Diavolo, Barbatos, and Mammon were rather impressed you reacted so coolly to everything, but then again, you were one to always put your image and pride first, so it shouldn't have been that surprising.

Lucifer wasn't sure what to make of you when you finally looked at him in the eye. You were operating as if he never broke your heart, as if he never drove you away by analyzing how you now spoke with him. He remained neutral, however, internally he was combusting at the sight of you. Though you were clearly no longer his, the fact that you were even looking at him brought out his possessive side, one that he would have to let die now, because he doubted that you'd ever forgive him for his transgressions.

After the meeting, Diavolo told you he would be out of the castle for the evening, having political business to attend to, and you of course understood, but he promised that when he returned and had time, he'd like to play Devil Kart again with you. With a light chuckle, agreed.

While you conversed with the prince, Barbatos was watching Lucifer, who happened to be watching you two. Barbatos could see the fiery rage in Lucifer's eyes, and so the butler approached.

"Lucifer," he said calmly.

"Hello, Barbatos," Lucifer replied quietly.

"You seem troubled by something," Barbatos quipped, laying on thick he knew what was going on.

Lucifer looked to the butler and frowned, he said, "Not at all."

Just then, you gave Diavolo a hug and wished him luck on his political venture, to which Lucifer flinched. That was not the first time he had seen you hug someone else, clearly, but this time, it made him ache. As Lucifer turned away sharply, Barbatos gave a wicked grin, and muttered,

"Indeed."

----

Thanks for reading~ <3

Post made by sassykattery. Do not repost. Reblogs and comments appreciated.

Tags: @delphi-dreamin @leavesandflowers @itsmeninerz @ariamichel @obeymediasimp @frozengoldie @the-ghost-of-panda

Masterlist

#obey me #obey me fanfic #love-eternal #sassystories #sassywrites #i am literally mammon's biggest cockblock #obey me shall we date #obey me imagines

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greenreticule · 2 years ago

Text

Hello there, Star Wars fandom, specifically those who like to consider themselves supportive of queer representation in the franchise.

Let's talk about aphobia

That is: disdain for aromantic and asexual people, be it active or ignorant.

(This is not an exhaustive list of how aphobia can show up in fandom, nor is it taking into account intersections such as race, disability, gender, etc.)

Some definitions for people new to the conversation:

aro = aromantic. experiencing little to no romantic attraction ace = asexual. experiencing little to no sexual attraction allo = alloromantic or allosexual. experiencing sexual or romantic attraction a-spec = somewhere on the aro or ace spectrum

THE HIGH REPUBLIC

Earlier this year, the twitter @/QueerSWatch posted about the number of queers present in The Fallen Star by Claudia Gray. There were two gay queens in minor roles, and then Leox Gyasi as a lead character, who is explicitly asexual and strongly implied aromantic.

Aside from two replies, the rest of them were bemoaning the lack of queers. Sure, three characters is not a lot. But what additional representation were the replies clamoring for?

Someone wanted Lucasfilm to hire a creator known for creating allo queer characters.

Someone who asked if Claudia Gray has ever written any queer characters, somehow missing the giant ace flag behind Leox in the tweet.

Someone who was insisting that a side character had to be allo queer.

Someone celebrating the side allo characters without a single mention of the leading queer character (which also happened with Into The Dark, where Leox gave a whole speech about his queerness).

And someone was clamoring for the aggressively straight Elzar Mann to be confirmed as allo queer.

In short, every single one of these people were replying to a tweet that was highlighting an asexual character, saying "not enough queers," and then offered fixes to that by suggesting EXCLUSIVELY allo representation.

That's aphobia.

That might not have been the intent, but it was still a very loud indication of what they considered actual, worthwhile representation. And it wasn't the leading aromantic, asexual character.

THE SEQUEL TRILOGY

A less recent, but loud conversation, was about Rey.

Part of the fandom interpreted The Last Jedi as Rey's sexual awakening, and then were loud about how any disagreement with that interpretation was cowardly, misogynistic, infantilizing, and repressive. Actual words used.

They insisted that a sexual awakening was essential, critical, and universal in people becoming adults. Not only did this actively ignore the asexual fans who saw themselves in Rey, these arguments are a repetition of actual pressure that asexual people face in real life.

We are considered "late bloomers," repressed by religion, or prudish just by being who we are, and many of us end up pressured into relationships that we do not want because we are considered broken for not wanting them.

Real aphobic arguments were deployed in defense of a ship.

THE JEDI CODE

For a more pervasive, ongoing discussion... let's talk about how a significant part of the fandom talks about the Jedi Code and Jedi chastity.

Some clarifications first:

Sex drives, participating in/enjoying the act of sex, virginity, chastity, being single, etc. are NOT the same thing as asexuality.

Asexuality and aromanticism are NOT the same thing. Not everyone who is aro is ace and vice versa.

However, allos often conflate all of these. Star Wars conflates all of these. The fandom conflates all of these.

Therefore, your opinions on #1 often reflect your beliefs about a-spec folks.

Whenever someone headcanons that Obi-Wan either is a-spec or chastely follows the Jedi Code, the constant reply is "Satine Kryze" or "no, I KNOW that he has sex!"

And some of the replies actually are written as if they are offended by the idea that Obi-Wan doesn't have sex.

Contrast this with the time that wording in an official Star Wars release suggested that Palpatine might have had sex. The day after International Asexuality Day 2021 (thanks!), the Star Wars fandom was flooded with people insistent that Palpatine could NOT have sex.

One reply to the myriad of tweets literally said "I know aphobia is bad but I just can't imagine him having sex."

Someone actively recognized they were near or in aphobia, and thought it was okay to continue on anyway.

What does it mean that the fandom will get offended by the implication that a desirable and good man might not have sex, and an undesirable and evil man might have sex?

That someone would prefer Obi-Wan to be allosexual and Palpatine to be asexual, based entirely in desirability and morality, is aggressively aphobic.

In general, the fandom attitude towards Jedi chastity consistently seems to include the assumption that it is wrong for the Jedi to be chaste, that it is repressive to avoid sex.

Obviously there are going to be parallels that people draw to fundamentalist Christianity and their rules about abstinence, but as someone who was raised in fundamental Christianity, I can tell you that those ideas about the Importance of Sex is also harmful to asexual people. It holds this threat of sex as a requirement after marriage, which is also considered a requirement. Because it’s That Important.

And this Importance of Sex gets repeated outside of the church too. Insisting that sex is an Inherent Good that All People Must Experience And Desire is elevating sex in the same way that fundamentalist Christianity does. It is still dictating how and when people must experience sex in order to be a full person.

This is reflected in fandom by being offended at the thought of a desirable character not having sex.

This is reflected in fandom acting as if it is an inherent evil for someone or a group of people to not desire or to choose to abstain from sex.

You need to consider how these things reflect upon your perception and treatment of a-spec people in real life.

#star wars #jedi #asexuality #aphobia #aromantic

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threewaysdivided · 2 years ago

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Martian Bigotry in Deathly Weapons

Have a thought-exercise I did while ruminating on some YJS1 lore-implications for a couple of M’gann scenes in my Deathly Weapons fanfic. (You don’t need to know this for the story BTW, it’s just a background worldbuilding thing I sometimes do to help ground characters/ systems/ conversations in a consistent internal context.) This one turned up some interesting ideas so I figured I’d share it.

Two quick things first:

Content warning: this meta is going to deal with prejudice and bigotry. Fictional prejudice toward made-up aliens but there may be parallels to real-life racism, ableism, queerphobia etc. so if this is a potentially upsetting topic for you then please take care.

I recognise that canon has made a decision, but given that I strongly disagree with most of the writing decisions made post Season 1 I have elected to ignore 99% of it. Yes, I am aware of all 3 sequels. No we are not doing that. This is an active choice, don’t make me tap the sign. We shall be heading down an alternate path, to hopefully find something that is compelling in a different way.

Let’s go.

The complexity of White Martians in Young Justice

Where other DC Comics stories frequently present Green and White Martians as distinct species/sub-species that cohabit Mars (either explicitly or by implication of their visual design) Young Justice creates complexities by framing them as the same race/species, with White Martians being a minority group within the Green Martian majority.

This is presented very explicitly in how the issue is introduced during the episode Targets; during a classroom discussion where Conner questions the conflict between North and South Rhelasia, noting that “they’re all humans - I mean, Rhelasians”, M’gann reveals to him telepathically that “It’s the same on Mars. The White Martian minority are treated as second-class citizens by the Green majority.” This framing directly positions the White Martian situation on Mars as closely analogous to racism on Earth.

Other implications within Season 1 and its tie-in companion comics support this reading. While M’gann did lie to J’onn about her ethnicity - and the series does note that J’onn probably missed this on account of having 300 nieces/nephews that he’s not especially close to - the series never actively refutes their blood relation (compared to Green Arrow and Artemis, whose relationship is revealed very early to be a cover story). Since J’onn is biologically Green, this implies the existence of mixed-colour families; or possibly that White Martianism is some form of mutation (similar to albinism).

M’gann’s own characterisation is also deeply rooted in her experience with Martian anti-White bigotry. M’gann’s attachment to the Hello Megan! TV show, her strong desire to please others/be accepted and her extreme panic at the idea of people learning her status (to the point that it becomes something she is willing to harm her teammates to conceal and is eventually blackmailed over) are all intrinsically linked to her experiences as a White Martian growing up among the Green on Mars. In some ways, M’gann’s personal narrative across Season 1 is about finding acceptance in a new community after leaving a place of oppression, with the potential set-up for further development about reclaiming identity after a lifetime of enduring prejudice.

All of this combines to make Young Justice’s presentation of White Martians markedly more complex and delicate to handle than many other iterations. While there can be questionable elements/ implications/ coding present in a story having a designated “pure evil” species (such as Tolkien’s Orcs) or “mostly evil” sub-species who live in separate communities/ societies (see some versions of Drow or Dark Elves) these can also be accepted as a simple conceit of the fiction. Meanwhile, Young Justice overtly frames its White Martians as a discriminated racial minority within a majority that they are socially integrated with. The nature of this framing also positions White Martians as near-entirely sympathetic; at no point during Season 1 (or the tie-in comics) do any of the characters explain why White Martians are regarded so poorly, nor do we see any indication that White Martians pose a potential risk or threat that would reasonably warrant differential treatment*. By implication, the Martian culture of Young Justice is one of systemic prejudice towards a seemingly undeserving minority - strongly analogous to racial discrimination in humans - in which all Martians (even sympathetic ones like J’onn) are at least somewhat complicit.

As a result of this, any commentary Young Justice tries to make on the nature and/or validity of Martian anti-White prejudice has the potential to become a comment on the nature and/or validity of real-life prejudice. It also means that any attempts to retcon White Martians to be inherently dangerous/ threatening/ predatory in order to excuse or justify the discrimination/ oppression could accidentally resonate with and implicitly validate real-life discriminatory rhetoric that villainises minorities.

*While M’gann is noted as an exceptionally powerful telepath, the problem is framed as her raw lack of experience/ training rather than an innate volatility. Her Season 1 personality is not inherently manipulative/ malicious (although she occasionally struggles to grasp human boundary standards), nor does she show a lack of capacity for compassion/ empathy/ respect. Most of her negative moments in Season 1 can be reasonably attributed to accident, misunderstanding or an act of desperation rooted in her understandable - if irrational - fear of being “outed” and ostracised.

Other details from canon

Skin Colour on Mars The companion comics (Volume 1, authors: Art Baltazar and Mike Norton) note that there are three colours of Martian; Green being predominant, with smaller numbers of White and Red.

M’gann’s “true White Martian form” does not have any noticeably significant anatomical differences to the true form of Green Martian (B’arzz O��oom shown in S2), aside from colouration. The use of purplish viscera-adjacent colouring on parts of M’gann’s true form, combined with vein lines, suggest that blood and tissues are more visible through the skin of White Martians - something that aligns more to a form of Albinism than an opaque white pigment being produced in place of green.

It’s also worth noting that this base skin colour does not seem to affect a Martian’s ability to present as other colours, since M’gann is able to convincingly mask as Green for most of the season, fooling not only humans but also seemingly her Green Martian uncle. (Contrast Beast Boy in multiple incarnations, whose skin/hair colour is always green no matter what form he shifts into).

The Primary Experience of Anti-White Bigotry In Targets M’gann describes White Martian’s as being treated as “second-class citizens”, directly comparing to tensions between human racial/national/ethnic groups. The companion comic also notes that “some [on Mars] do not see White Martians as equal” and that “the treatment of White Martians especially was horrible”.

Specifically, M’gann cites an experience of “constant rejection” and being afraid that the Team would never accept her if they knew “what [she] truly was” as the reasons for concealing her status. In Image she mentions that her attachment to the Hello Megan! TV show was partially the product of having a lonely childhood.

This suggests that the day-to-day experience of anti-White racism is less one of active violence and more of persistent shunning, ostracization, isolation and general social rejection.

Extra-textual elaborations While not explored within the original canon, extra-textual information suggests that at least some members of the original production team intended for M’gann to be one of two White Martian children in a large mixed family of a White father and Green mother, with J’onn being her maternal uncle.

Extra textual statements also mention that there is supposedly no colour-spectrum in the offspring of mixed parents - children are always one colour or the other with no correlation between shade and “percentage heritage”.

Discrimination is mentioned to be purely based on individual colouration. While Red Martians only appear as a passing note in the companion comic (simply mentioning that they exist), extra-textual statements suggest that they were intended to be a Royal/ Noble class.

Unreliable narrators A complexity of understanding the situation on Mars is that M’gann is an actively unreliable narrator on the subject since she spends most of the Season pretending to be a Green Martian from a purely Green family. As a result it is unclear when M’gann is speaking honestly about her own experiences but in an indirect manner, when she is describing the treatment of White Martians semi-honestly but in-character as a “liberal-minded Green Martian”, when she is saying something about Mars because it reflects what she thinks a Green Martian would say even though it conflicts with her own opinion, and when she is engaging in active deception to hide her status.

Within the companion comic, M’gann claims to have 12 sisters - a statement repeated within the show - and 17 brothers, but their colours are never referenced since at this point M’gann is still pretending that her family is “pure Green”. Within the comic several direct lies are also present; all Martians (M’gann included) are presented as having the humanoid forms that she and J’onn preferentially take on Earth, M’gann claims to have always had a great relationship with J’onn, and claims to have won her protégé-ship via a rigorous contest. (It’s also worth noting that Wally is an overtly unreliable narrator in this comic; telling a very glorified and rosy version of his origin, in direct contrast to the much less positive story the panels are showing).

Alien Biology Makes Things Complicated

The ubiquity of shapeshifting and telepathy among Martians of all colours introduce some significant differences from any real-life models of prejudice.

Cosmetic Discrimination and Status When Everyone Can Shapeshift Prejudices are often attached to the fact that certain physical traits are inherent and cannot be changed (or at least cannot be changed without borderline-prohibitive levels of effort, expense and/or medical intervention). Similarly, status-based classism is usually rooted in the status symbol being a limited resource whose access can be gatekept to/by the “superior” classes - and which usually falls out of favour/ becomes derided once that resource becomes widely accessible to “common people” (e.g. use of imported spices in English cooking).

However, with shapeshifting being a ubiquitous ability among Martians, day-to-day skin colour is neither a fixed trait, nor a limited resource. It also doesn’t seem like there is any significant cost or limitation to holding a shapeshifted form since M’gann and J’onn consistently hold non-native forms even when alone (with M’gann remaining shapeshifted as “Miss Martian” even when unconscious) and never express any concern about hitting a limit that would cause them to revert back. Nothing would prevent any Martian from cosmetically presenting as any of the other colours; indeed Martians could do away with the tri-colour system entirely by presenting across the spectrum of all colours their shapeshifting is capable of.

This suggests that 1) there is some form of social convention/ pressure that leads Martians to preferentially present as their birth colour and 2) there is some metaphysical significance assigned to birth-colour that persists regardless of later cosmetic colour shifts.

The Other Among the Population Prejudice is also a result of othering; an “us vs them” mindset that treats other demographics as fundamentally different/ foreign to or on some level less human than one’s own group, despite the fact that - beneath small superficial differences - all human beings are fundamentally homoousian (of the same substance). Part of dismantling prejudice is the recognition that all other people are as real and human as oneself, and therefore equally deserving of autonomy and respect.

Since Martians are telepathic and communicate mind-to-mind, and the three demographics are societally integrated (rather than separated into pure-colour communities) it might be expected that any discrimination based solely on superficial skin colour would quickly be overcome by the recognition that members of all three colour-groups are the same in mind. It’s also worth noting that the two minorities are seemingly treated very differently - Red being privileged where White are disparaged - rather than being seen as equally threatening to the Green majority.

While it is possible that Martians’ longevity and mental interconnectedness is allowing a historical prejudice to perpetuate through the community, this may also suggest that there are some slight but significant differences between the three colours (at a population level if not an individual one) that lend just enough legitimacy to these biases for them to persist unquestioned.

Identifying Base Colour When Everyone Can Shapeshift Martians seem to have some ability to identify each other mentally; shape-shifting for play is apparently a common game that is seen as harmless since the other Martians can identify the person regardless of the physical guise they take.

It is unclear if this unique “mental signature” automatically conveys the Martian’s birth colour. The fact that the three colours are treated as different classes differently suggests that there is some mechanism by which colour is tracked within the community - otherwise White Martians could simply mask as Green to avoid discrimination, and both White and Green Martians might attempt to present as Red to gain preferential treatment.

However M’gann also seems to believe that she has successfully lied to J’onn about her colouring, as one of her fear-visions features him turning on her and saying that she must return to Mars now that he knows the truth. While it is never confirmed whether J’onn actually knew M’gann’s status from the start and was simply waiting for her to tell him (similar to when Conner found out in Bialya), this does suggest that the possibility of Martians concealing their birth-colour from others on an individual level is at least plausible enough for M’gann to believe it into her mid/late teens.

How Anti-White Bigotry Manifests in Deathly Weapons

Headcanon time. Let’s see what we can build with these pieces and parameters:

Mechanisms of Martian Birth-Colour In the DW-verse, Martian birth-colour is determined by genes carried on the same genetic locus as some secondary mutations governing telepathic and magical affinity. While colour inheritance doesn’t follow classic Mendelian dominant-recessive patterns (based on the ratio of Green to White Martians in M’gann’s family) the Green trait dominates to a large degree, and the Red trait also dominates over the White trait.

This shared locus does not mean that colours and abilities are 100% correlated - having one trait does not guarantee having the other - but it means that there is a higher statistical likelihood of traits appearing together. (Similar to how Coeliacs disease and Type 1 Diabetes act as increased risk factors for each other).

In this case, White and Red carriers are more likely to have a stronger connection to the source of Martians’ telepathic/ magical abilities (in fact it’s more likely that Green colouring is co-located with a mild power dampening factor that is absent from the Locus in the other two). However the genes that code Red birth-colour co-locate with secondary factors that make the power easier to control. Meanwhile the White Locus has a higher likelihood of lacking all three factors; colour, dampener and stabiliser.

Under this system, both Red-born and White-born Martian populations are proportionally more powerful than Green-born Martians. However among powerful White Martians there is a higher proportion of individuals with a less stable handle on those powers.

White Martians are not necessarily more dangerous or less moral, they just need more accommodation in the form of training and support when learning to manage their powers. But placed under the same stress conditions an untrained Red Martian is more likely to present as a natural prodigy, where an untrained White Martian may seem destructive, volatile or preternaturally unlucky.

This provides the shred of legitimacy from which the rest of pro-Red, anti-White Martian prejudice is built.

The Narrative of Bigotry Birth colour was assigned metaphysical value loosely derived from the power issue above; Green being seen as normal, Red as a sign of favour/ blessing and White as an ill-omen/ curse. This started off in early Martian society (prior to a proper understanding of inheritance, heredity, genetics or disability) and evolved into a set of ingrained systemic biases.

Over time, moral qualities began to be attached to colouring; White in particular being seen as inherently lacking in moral fibre. White Martians also came to be viewed as intellectually inferior; being perceived as too stupid and/or lazy to properly control themselves, rather than recognising that White Martians are disproportionately likely to be struggling with a challenging burden of power-management.

As Martian powers are tied to their emotional and mental state, this creates a vicious cycle. Rather than being properly accommodated and given techniques to manage their higher power burden, White Martians are left under-supported while being treated in a way that increases agitation, anxiety and distress - i.e. conditions likely to trigger disruptive power malfunction in any Martian. Effectively White Martians are set up to fail, and instances of failure are taken as evidence to support the prejudiced narrative and justify further oppression, priming the cycle to continue.

(Ironically, Red Martians - who are disproportionately likely to inherit a combination of manageable and stable powerfulness - are the ones with the most access to resources and support. The privileged become more privileged, the oppressed become more oppressed; again, vicious cycles.)

Treatment of White Martians in Deathly Weapons

General Attitude Anti-White bigotry largely manifests as a combination of contempt, condescension, disgust and shunning. White Martians are stereotyped as inherently less moral and intelligent, so even more-benign treatment tends to be condescending in an “it’s not your fault you’re inferior” or an “I didn’t realise someone like you could do that” fashion. There are some who see White Martians as having naturally malicious/ manipulative personalities.

Beyond being seen as inferior, White Martians are considered undesirable to be around; specifically as potentially dangerous, disruptive and/or unlucky to be in the presence of rather than bringing bad things only upon themselves. This is partially rooted in the small number of real instances where a White Martian with more volatile telepathic/magical abilities lost control around others but this risk has become massively overinflated within the narrative of prejudice. What is in actuality only a low chance for a small number of White Martians under specific circumstances ends up being treated as a near-inevitability of associating with any White Martian for an extended period (with “well you got lucky” being a common dismissal when this doesn’t happen). As a result, White Martians are tolerated but typically excluded, shunned or ignored unless it is necessary to interact with them. (This also contributes to White Martians being less well-socialised than the other colours on the whole, which folds back into perceptions of them as underdeveloped, strange and socially undesirable.)

All Martians are socialised into anti-White bigotry, something made more pervasive by the shared telepathic existence. Since Anti-whiteness is so normalised, even tolerant partners/ parents/ children of White Martians may not initially recognise some of their own opinions and behaviours as anti-White microaggressions. Even direct Green relatives of White Martians frequently fail to truly appreciate how relentlessly passively hostile Martian society is to White Martians, and how mentally exhausting it can be for White Martians to simply exist in that space.

Exploitation White Martians become an easy scapegoat for problems in Martian society. By framing issues as a “White Martian problem” or focusing on real or perceived issues specifically to do with White Martians, Green and Red Martians are able to maintain an inflated sense of goodness and complacency (i.e. “there’s not a systemic problem in Martian society, it’s just a White Martian problem.”) In some cases, White Martians are scapegoated in more overt ways; being accused of instigating bad behaviour in groups of other children when young, and easily blamed when items are lost or stolen. (Something that some Green Martian children knowingly take advantage of.)

This makes White Martians more exploitable as a resource to the other colours. Since White Martian suffering is somewhat normalised/ trivialised, there are fewer qualms about making them do tedious, unpleasant or dangerous menial tasks. A more pernicious side is in threat management (either from predatory animals, elemental danger or the rare cases of violent internal conflict); the perception of White Martians as both societally low-value and “volatile loose cannons” making them doubly at risk of being used as a sort of high-power cannon-fodder first-wave in physical threat containment. (If they eliminate the problem, they spare the Red and Green Martians an inconvenience... and if they die well, it’s not that big of a loss).

There is also an insidious side in how Red Martians are incentivised to maintain this structure. Red Martians are, at a population level, disproportionately biologically privileged; making it easier for them to obtain positions of religious, economic and political power. However, a White Martian who was properly accommodated and trained has not only the potential for the same raw power level but also possibly even greater control due to the mastery required to handle the tendency toward more volatile abilities. A well-adjusted, well-trained White Martian potentially represents a political threat in how they not only disprove stereotypes but implicitly challenge the moral correctness of the current system, and draw attention to Red privilege. As a result, Red and Green Martians can feel uneasy with/ threatened by the idea of White Martians as socially equal, and are unconsciously incentivised to keep White Martians under-supported, unaccommodated and oppressed in order to keep this threat from arising.

An interesting thought: This could have potentially thorny implications if M’gann were ever to return from Earth as an openly White Martian Hero trained and sponsored by a Green Martian Hero.

Identification of White Martians in DW

Beyond cosmetic appearance, birth colour does not inherently change the feeling of a Martian’s mind in the DW-verse. While another Martian can uncover one’s colour if given permission to explore memories/ connect intimately with one’s mind, two Martians meeting alone for the first time would initially have to trust each other’s outward presentation.

White Martians are regularly clocked within the community they grew up in because the memory of their early years and the bias against/ association of their mind with their birth skin colour pervades the collective consciousness. In the DW-verse Martian children have only limited control over their shapeshifting until around age 4 in Martian years (12 Earth years). This means most Martian children present as their birth colour during early childhood, long enough for an automatic association to become set in the minds of the people around them.

Even if a White Martian begins to mask and present as Green later in life, this collective awareness makes it extremely difficult to “pass” in their home communities. Even well-intentioned family members can accidentally “out” White Martians with a misplaced or unintended thought. On top of this, anti-White prejudice and the not-uncommon belief that White Martians are more malicious/ manipulative by nature means that attempting to pass as Green is often interpreted in the most bad-faith way possible (rather than simply an attempt to avoid being singled out and mistreated) and can result in a more overtly hostile rejection if caught. As a result, the majority of Martians simply choose to present as their birth colour in day-to-day life.

A White Martian could successfully pass as Green and live undetected if they chose to travel a long way from their birthplace and start anew - however this would mean entirely cutting ties with all friends, family and community members who knew them as White (a difficult and lonely prospect due to the deep mental intimacy of the family unit) and leave them vulnerable and without protection/ support should they be discovered so far from home. Again, the perception of White Martians as potentially manipulative means that individuals and groups of notably smaller number than a standard Martian family unit tend to be regarded with some level of suspicion when they first arrive in a new community.

Linking back to canon This is how M’gann managed to initially fool J’onn, since they were separated from their community by the time he caught her aboard his ship and he didn’t know his extended family well enough to be able to immediately distinguish which of his 300-odd nieces and nephews were what colours. However it is very possible that he did eventually realise that she was White prior to her telling the Team, and simply chose not to say anything until she did as a gesture of trust.

How White Martians Respond to Their Treatment

All Martians are socialised into anti-White bigotry in a way that is much stronger and more pervasive/ hard-to-escape due to Martian telepathy and the collective consciousness. Anti-Whiteness as an attitude pervades the communal mind-space as a persistent undercurrent in all aspects of life and language.

White Martians are more likely to recognise anti-White rhetoric but also tend to struggle with internalised anti-Whiteness more than human minorities struggle with internalised self-prejudices, due to constantly sharing a direct mental space with other Martians who both hold anti-White attitudes and who perceive them through the lens of anti-White prejudice and bigoted narratives; something that persistently reinforces those beliefs on both a conscious and unconscious level. (If 80% of people around you openly perceive you to be inherently lesser/ undesirable/ a monster, at what point do you start to believe it yourself?)

Responses from White Martians generalise into 4 major types:

Defeated Resignation: Many White Martians have somewhat unhappily made peace with their lot and resigned themselves to a life of keeping their head down, finding solace within their family unit. These White Martians often have a “you need to accept that this is the way that it will be” mindset - they acknowledge the status quo as unfair but advocate for eking out what personal contentment they can find.

On some level many of these Martians have internalised the rhetoric that this is as much as they deserve and all they can aspire to.

Model Citizen: A smaller sister-group, these White Martians believe that by being the best representatives of their demographic that they can (well-behaved, polite, socially useful, nonconfrontational) they can carve a quiet path to respect, acceptance and equality.

As parents, these White Martians are mostly likely to put well-intentioned pressure on any White children to perform model behaviours as well.

While optimistic, in reality mostly this just upholds the status quo.

Benevolent Political Challenger: A small number of White Martians recognise the system as unfair and respond by bucking that system through intentionally presenting with Red or atypical colouring at all times; some going so far as to shift their anatomy and physical form to create non-Martian silhouettes. #BeAubergineFuckTheSystem This is physically and telepathically harmless behaviour aimed to passively challenge and confront other Martians about the necessity of colour-classism. These are the White Martians who are the most likely to also be actively agitating for societal change.

This is often successful in discomfiting Red/Green (and sometimes other, more passive, White) Martians but the decision to live in a permanently shapeshifted form - outside of play or camouflage - is also frequently dismissed/ derided as immature or simply attention-seeking.

To live this way is an unapologetic political statement but it exposes them to a degree of danger as doing so can often mark one out as a White Martian and thus make them a target (something which in turn draws annoyance from Green Martians who occasionally choose to use colour display for costuming or self-expression).

Some White Martians find the idea of this lifestyle exhausting as they simply want acceptance and equality without being a public spectacle.

Resentful/ Angry Rebel: There is a small but vocal proportion of White Martians who openly resent the system and their Green community/ family members. This is also expressing a desire for change but more in a way that releases feelings of societal impotence and powerlessness.

In some cases this manifests as being openly hostile toward and willing to start arguments with the other colours at the barest provocation.

Sometimes this anger is also directed at other White Martians if they are seen to be being too complicit or compliant instead of advocating for change. (Angry Rebels hate Model Citizens.)

For a small number of individuals this turns into deliberately embracing and playing into the worst stereotypes in a kind of “is what you want?” challenge. This is very much a case of “cutting off your nose to spite your face” since the main result is that they become examples used by Red and Green Martians to confirm and reinforce anti-White narratives.

Another small minority respond by doing whatever they like with no regard for others. This can vary from more harmless “any attention is better than no attention” class-clown misbehaviour to more actively hostile “if everything you do is doing to be wrong anyway then you might as well do whatever you damn well want” justification for callousness or cruelty. Again this is mostly unproductive as it serves to reinforce stereotypes.

Treatment of Mixed-Colour Pairings/Families in DW

Most Martians tend to take a partner (or partners) of the same colour, but mixed-colour pairings of all combinations have been observed. As colour discrimination happens on an individual level, Martians are rarely mistreated for their selection of partners, and Green/ Red children of mixed pairings are considered to have risen above their “lesser” parent in being blessed/ escaping a curse.

Sidenote: Martian gender and queerness in Deathly Weapons As there isn’t much physical dimorphism between female and male Martians, shapeshifting is ubiquitous and telepathy/telekinesis/magic are neither gendered nor physical, Martian society is quite egalitarian about gender. While there may be some separation of roles around reproductive function and gendering of minor ceremonial behaviours, Martian physicality and powers are very equalising, and little status is attached to biological sex. Given how many children a breeding pair of Martians has on average, their longevity, that shapeshifting is a universal ability and that everyone has psychic powers, Martian culture is very accepting of various attractions and sexualities (both to different genders and even sometimes to other species, although the latter is uncommon simply because the general Martian populace lives mostly underground and doesn’t see many interplanetary visitors). Long-term Martian attraction is based on psychological compatibility moreso than physical form, which tends to preclude any concerns or biases about physiology. The egalitarian approach to gender/ gender roles, low dimorphism between the base-forms of each sex and the ubiquity of shapeshifting also means that concepts like transgenderism probably aren’t very present in the Martian consciousness. In order to not be incapacitated by their own shapeshifting, Martian biology is likely immune to experiencing dysphoria/ dysmorphia in the way humans conceive it, and minor shapeshifting to alleviate physical discomfort - whether environmental or medical - is considered very normal. (Although Martians may experience psychological distress if a specific form has associated trauma, and Martians who have spent extended periods shapeshifted into one particular form may experience a period of discomfort as they reacclimatise to inhabiting now less-familiar shapes.) Yes, the tolerance of Martian Society towards shapeshifting outside of masking birth skin colour is a hypocritical and irrational double-standard. Bigotry is like that.

Social status and colour-breeding tend to be the biggest factors in the social reception of pairings.

Of all the colours, Red Martians are the ones most likely to strongly practice “true breeding” in order to retain and pass on the perceived blessing of Red colouration within families. (This means that Red Martians - especially Red Martian aristocracy - are more susceptible to becoming inbred by human standards, especially when you consider how large Martian extended families are.)

Green-Red Green-Red is probably the rarest pairing since Green colouration predominates in the offspring of these unions. While not openly disdained it is frequently met with a degree of initial confusion towards the Red Martian - especially from other Red Martians. Often the Green Martian in a Red-Green pair is regarded as being in some way exceptional enough to persuade a Red Martian to “dilute their blessing”.

Green-White Due to the widespread and massive disdain towards White Martians, Green-White pairings are viewed as somewhat eccentric. Only a very liberal-minded Green Martian would consider a White Martian for a mate. The Green partner in a Green-White pairing is often seen as being very magnanimous, or even a naïve bleeding-heart. Others may view the Green partner as being brave or strong enough to have overcome/ tamed the “dangerous” or “cursed” nature of their White partner. (It’s also sometimes derided as a fetish thing; the stereotype of White Martians as “brutish” being a source of many unkind jibes.) The White partners in Green-White couples are often Model Citizen types, and are typically ignored in social settings in favour of interacting with their spouse(s).

Since the Green trait heavily predominates the White trait in the offspring of these unions, there is a somewhat insidious mindset in particularly intolerant Martians that Green-White coupling is actually preferable to White-White coupling since it will “breed the White out” of the population. This mindset is vile enough that it is rarely openly voiced… but the thing with telepathy is that it’s not hard to know what people are really thinking.

Red-White Red-White pairings are considered taboo/ scandalous and are frequently publicly denied while being one of those dirty secrets that happens more often than people think. While some Red-White relationships are sincere, there are a lot of social and political power dynamics at play. In many cases it’s more of a tryst, with the White Martian being akin to a concubine more than an equal partner. While there are rare cases where this is a true courtly-love situation and the arrangement is the result of the Red Martian wanting to be with the White Martian but unable to publicly claim them as a partner due to social/ political repercussions, often it is more the case that the Red Martian is simply enjoying the thrill of a broken taboo. If a Red-White tryst is discovered, the tendency of White Martians to be scapegoated usually directs most of the consequences onto them.

Since the Red trait is dominant over the White trait, there can also be an insidious level of colour-breeding strategy at play. Given no suitable Red partners, a secret White partner will produce a higher proportion of Red offspring than taking a Green partner. It is not unheard of for a White child to “spontaneously” be born to a “True Red” couple, and very quickly smuggled away to the White parent’s extended family before the truth gets out (if they’re lucky). White children of Red-White couples are some of the worst-treated individuals.

M’gann’s Personal Experience

Beyond just her experience as a White Martian, M’gann’s behaviour and dialogue indicate that she may have had a more isolating experience than is typical for her demographic.

M’gann never mentions her family in any kind of positive/fond context, and barely mentions them at all - even in situations where family comes up for other characters in front of her. Of all the main members of the Season 1 team, we know the least about M’gann’s family (even compared to genomorph Conner, canonical orphan Dick and latecomer Zatanna). While some of this may be a biproduct of her attempting to conceal her colouring, not even innocuous anecdotes are shared. This suggests that M’gann does not feel particularly connected to her family and/or may not feel that her experiences of family are comparable to the others.

M’gann feeling unusually disconnected/ distanced from her family aligns to readings of a few other details. Despite purportedly having 29 Siblings M’gann cites her childhood as being lonely. Even assuming that Martian sibling dynamics are markedly different from Human siblings, one would expect a large family to provide some sense of community. One potential reading of her “I always wanted a sister” line in Infiltrator (followed by quickly tacking on that she has 12 on Mars) is that M’gann never felt like she had a sisterly dynamic with her siblings.

M’gann’s true backstory also seems to support this. Apparently she ran away from home without telling her family or leaving a message. Beyond simply not talking about her family, we never see any signs of M’gann expressing concern or regret over how they might be feeling, nor does she seem to particularly miss them. We also do not see any indications that they have attempted to contact each other, even via J’onn. While she may simply have wanted to avoid a fuss/ attempts to stop her, it also suggests that M’gann believed no-one would miss her/ notice her departure, and that there was no-one/ nothing on Mars she considered worth staying for.

Deathly Weapons’ take on M’gann

The M’gann of the DW-verse is one of two White children to a Green mother and White father. In total there are 30 children in her family, of which M’gann is a younger-middle child, with a slightly older White brother. In Deathly Weapons, her brother is Micha'kel and her father is Dal'en (named for two background White Martians in the wider DC comics).

M’gann’s family dynamic is not one of abuse or intentional neglect but it is one of absence around her. Her family is on the larger side by Martian standards, and her parents’ attention is often occupied by dealing with her younger siblings. Her older siblings, meanwhile, are all Green save for Micha'kel, and their achievements and milestones often overshadow her. M’gann sits somewhere within the realm of the “forgotten child”, existing quietly on the fringes of her family.

Like a lot of Green Martians, M’gann’s Green siblings have been somewhat shielded from understanding by their own privilege. While they are liberal-minded, they don’t necessarily realise how passively exhausting it is to be a White Martian or how many barriers it places socially. There were times where some of her siblings invited her to tag along to things but then didn’t seem to realise how quickly M’gann would slip into being ignored or subtly mistreated by other people - until eventually M’gann withdrew from going at all. Being Green frees her siblings to live their own lives and, while M’gann doesn’t feel she can resent them for it (most of the time), it does make her feel lonely to watch.

M’gann has a complicated relationship with her father and brother. Dal'en leans towards being a mix of Resigned and Model Citizen about his own White status; he has found contentment with where he is, he is happy to let their mother be the face of the family, and - while he recognises that the system is unfair and has sympathy for his children - his advice is mostly about making peace with your position and being grateful for what you have rather than risk losing it by pushing for more. While M’gann can somewhat appreciate where he’s coming from, she also finds it frustrating/ upsetting to not have a strong advocate in her corner. Micha'kel, meanwhile, is slightly older than M’gann and responds to his treatment and the system by being more of an Angry Rebel. He is vocally critical of Dal’en’s attitude and will pursue arguments to challenge his father and siblings about allowing their treatment. Micha’kel’s “problem child” behaviours further divert the family’s attention away from M’gann, and she does not enjoy being roped into these arguments as an example. M’gann and Micha’kel have very little in common as people or in terms of interests; when they were younger M’gann had hoped that they would have a closer sibling bond due to their shared colouring, but on some level she recognises that being related is the only thing that meaningfully connects them.

M’gann sits at an odd point between her father and brother’s mentalities. She is too dissatisfied to take Dal’en’s advice but she finds the idea of actively confronting the system to be exhausting. She tried something similar to Micha’kel for a year - being more assertive and confrontational in trying to make others acknowledge and include her - but mostly found herself left tired, frustrated and having experienced more firm rejection. Where Dal’en has made peace with unhappiness and Micha’kel is always angry, M’gann just wants to be herself.

This is made more pronounced by M’gann’s own personality and interests. The disconnect from her family caused M’gann to withdraw slightly into escapism - specifically into Hello Megan! because of the simple stories, cheerful tone and easy resolution of problems, as well as the similarity in their names (and the fantasy of being well-liked and paid attention to). Where most Martians find Earth TV enjoyable as a passing curiosity, M’gann has made it into more of a hobby than others. It’s rather easy to read M’gann as the Martian equivalent of an otaku; she is defined by her relationship with a piece of media from another culture, eventually moving to live as part of that culture while adopting a persona based on that media. That combination of being a White Martian with a niche interest made it more difficult to find community; not many other White Martian’s shared that interest with her, and her status as a White Martian meant she was frequently denied entry into Green Martian groups/clubs.

M’gann’s own family are patient but perhaps a little patronizing about her hobby. While they are supportive of her enjoying something she likes (especially since it lets her amuse herself in a non-destructive way), they don’t really understand why this throw-away piece of Earth entertainment is so important to her. (There is a bit of wilful obtuseness going on - no-one really wants to confront the possibility that their own dynamic is contributing to it by unintentionally hurting their daughter/sister). Dal’en’s more Model Citizen mindset is something of a hindrance in this situation as well; he has a well-meaning (and somewhat legitimate) concern that M’gann’s niche interests won’t translate into something societally productive and could be a barrier to connecting with others, but even with telepathy it’s hard to communicate that in a way that doesn’t come across as being critical and/or pessimistic about one of the few things M’gann finds unambiguously joyful. While his relationship with M’gann is less fraught than with Micha’kel, Dal’en can’t really step out of his own mindset and coping strategies enough to connect with her in the way she needs.

Because of all this, as a child M’gann had a tendency to be somewhat clingy and overenthusiastic in her desire to please people who showed her positive attention, inadvertently pushing potential friends away by grating on their boundaries.

M’gann may have tried to mask as Green a few times in attempt to be accepted, but would have been quickly revealed and chased away - one of the reasons why rejection is such a source of pain for her. She might have had a better chance at making it work by befriending a Green child from a recently-moved-in family that arrived at the outskirts of her own community (just far enough out for the communities collective mindset to not immediately reveal her status) but it would have been unlikely to last. There would have been low change that a random rebellious Green child would share her main interests and a high chance that M’gaan would end up silently enduring a fair amount of judgmentalism and casual anti-Whiteness in their language and jokes in order to “fit in”. A relationship based on such a fundamental lie could never sincerely sustain itself in that state, and the question of whether the “friend” rejected her because they didn’t like M’gann’s actual personality or if it was because they had started to suspect her status as a White Martian would always hang over the failed attempts.

M’gann’s decision to stow away with J’onn to Earth was based both on feeling like there wasn’t (and might never be) a place for her on Mars, and a belief that Earth would be a simpler, kinder and happier place based on what TV had shown her.

#Young Justice: Deathly Weapons #YJ:DW Meta #Young Justice #DC Comics #Miss Martian #M'gann M'orzz #White Martians #3WD #scattered thoughts #worldbuilding nonsense #fanon #it's a VERY long post under the cut so buckle in #decided to do a fun little thought exercise and went straight for the SPICY option #have a peak behind the curtain of the somewhat unhinged levels my brain sometimes goes to for consistency in my fanfic #fully worldbuilding a societal mechanism as context for one primary scene #also brought to you by stopping dead in my tracks like: Wait how does cosmetic discrimination work when everyone can SHAPESHIFT?#I am not a sociologist BTW. I have a Biomol Sci degree (Genetics Major) and an armchair interest in psychology #semi-accurate pseudoscience meets a casual interest in watching psychology/ sociology videos #I have SIGNIFICANT issues with how M'gann was used/treated by the narrative post Season 1. Did her so dirty.#But that doesn't change how much potential for interesting nuance was there in the foundation Season 1 provided #I understand that YJ Season 4 apparently did something with Mars and M'gann #and this is probably VERY divergent from that #but 1) ask me if I give a darn #and 2) look me in the eye and tell me YJ has EVER been consistent about its own canon between Seasons #also my brain: *nudges me at 2am* do you think Season 1 M'gann was the Martian equivalent of a Weeb/ Horse Girl?#me staring at the ceiling now wide awake: you're right but I hate that you phrased it that way

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curiosity-killed · 3 years ago

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Lang Qianqiu deserves more love goddammit: a post, unfortunately

This brought to you by the wonderful @veliseraptor & @/yuer on Twitter but also mostly out of spite and the fact that it’s preventing me from writing a very dumb poke-the-bear post abt the entire weird social media culture around The Minors

As always ✨SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE✨

So first off: when I hit the scene where lqq confronts xl and screams “I will never be like you” I sat up in bed, did a little shimmy of delight, and hissed “fuck yes” at like 2 AM so. Now you have a preview of wtf this train wreck will be

1 ) lqq is a good character

We don’t get a ton of time with lqq because tgcf is 87 side characters running across stage with The Most Interesting Concept constantly one-upping each other before vanishing. But what we do get is, I think, enough to make a pretty compelling story: Lang Qianqiu is a kind and generous prince who is also the sole survivor of the bloody massacre of his entire family, committed by the people dearest to him (both in his belief that Gusohi Fangxin did it and in the reality of An Le’s involvement), who goes on to peacefully lead his fractious nation into a peaceful reign before he ascends as a powerful enough (aka beloved and worshipped enough) god to be ranked among the top heavenly generals. That’s like. Pretty fucking classic protagonist vibes right there.

And, as usual with mxtx’s characters, we get a lot more than this lovely little backstory. In his interactions in canon, lqq is capable of great grief and anger; he is willing to sacrifice himself if it means avenging his murdered family; and he simultaneously holds both great hatred and great respect for his old teacher. And, of course, he winds up raising and taking care of his enemy’s son which shows a remarkable depth of compassion and emotional messiness that I find terribly compelling. He struggles with a simplistic view of justice that is supported by lies told to “protect” him and that is uprooted by the truth and forces him to try to make sense of the world without the guardrails that others installed around him (looking at you mister fangxin sir).

Also I’m stealing my own tweets bc I’m Right but:

*pulls up single barstool to lqq is a good character table* I think it’s interesting & Says Things abt the continued relationship btwn lqq & xl that lqq *didn’t* recognize xl, implying that he left fangxin’s mask in place even when he went to kill him

Like here is the man who killed his family & best friend, who left him abandoned in bloodshed on his 17th bday—& here is also the man who saved his life, who taught him, who lqq looked up to & wanted to be like

Even when lqq *does* recognize xl, he still has so much respect for him paired with that hatred that it’s honestly rlly tragic? Like man. There’s so much grief in lqq’s repeated demands for a duel & insisting it’s fine if xl kills him as long as he doesn’t hold back

*pats lqq pompom* this bb is so sad. And so much more like his teacher than either of them seem to realize or necessarily want

Despite being a pretty minor character, lqq gets a lot of complexity and nuance! Look at this child trying to be grown up while desperately turning to his old master for guidance and “the truth”! Look at him! Be sad!!

2 ) lqq is an excellent parallel to xl

Okay stealing my own tweet again don’t look at me I yell the same shit everywhere

Xl didn’t want lqq to become like him (self-sacrificing, vengeful, alone) but lqq not only became alone, chasing vengeance, & willing to sacrifice himself for revenge—he also became kind, open-minded, & remorseful!! & he still clearly respects xl @ novel end 🙃🙃

We all know hc’s “they’re not very alike at all” and yeah sure baby go support your man but narratively, there’s a lot of importance given to cycles, parallels, and foils in mxtx’s writing and most explicitly (compared to mdzs, haven’t read svss) in tgcf. For example, *gestures at beefleaf, gestures at Xianle Trio vs Wuyogn Crew, gestures at Xie Lian & Jun Wu’s whole uh. Deal.* And while I’d argue xl and lqq are part of a triumvirate rather than a pair, we’re not including mister three-face in this conversation so just looking at xl and lqq:

Both adored and sheltered crown princes

Both taught by a guoshi who was seeking to prevent the repetition of their own tragedies and in their efforts, lied/omitted information and failed to protect their charge from tragedy

Both were betrayed* by their closest friends

Both are the last living members of their respective royal families

Both caught the interest of supernatural beings from a young age

Etc etc I’m getting v bored and distracted writing this so moving on

Most importantly to me, we have their betrayal by a very close and adored mentor and how they react. The confrontation I mention at the start of this shitshow is really imo one of the most important scenes in the novel because it a) illustrates the differences in xl and Jun Wu and b) sort of gives you a preview of how xl ultimately wins

So a) Jun Wu and Xie Lian both take a talented, marked-for ascension young prince under their wing. Jun Wu sees himself in the boy and obsesses over shaping him into Jun Wu’s own image in the belief that this will make him the perfect heir. Jun Wu pushes his chosen heir into situations where Xie Lian is repeatedly harmed in an effort to show that the common people are fickle and cruel and don’t deserve his compassion and care.

Meanwhile, Xie Lian is reluctantly roped into mentoring his prince due to his inability to stand aside when he feels he could do something to prevent hurt or injustice befalling another (simultaneously his great strength and great weakness! God I love him). Xie Lian tries to teach his student to believe in and care for the common people and not to sacrifice himself (see: flashback convo re:taking the force of the sword strike into his own body).

When Xie Lian refuses to bend in the shape Jun Wu demands, Jun Wu bashes his head into the wall. When Lang Qianqiu cries “I will never be like you!”, Xie Lian laughs and says “Good!”.

B) this of course feeds directly into foreshadowing! Like Lang Qianqiu’s bold words, xl ultimately refuses to become like his mentor and remains defiant even when it would stop him from being hurt. Xl beats lqq and says so what if I tricked you, so what if I lied, I still won. Naturally, xl beats Jun Wu not through standard swordplay but by using a trick he learned while forced to busk and wander the earth alone and unlucky for centuries.

…okay so I have fully forgotten what I was actually saying here! Anyway!

Like Xie Lian, Lang Qianqiu spends a time consumed with the need for vengeance, hunting his enemy and rejecting the heavens. And like Xie Lian, he winds up caring for his enemy’s “son” and trying to both comfort him and maintain what’s left of Qi Rong’s life force despite having previously been hellbent on destroying him—bc he sees the impact it has on another person. In the end, he even gives a gift to Xie Lian—his mentor, his role model, and the one who killed his father—that was once given to him as a symbol of unexpected kindness. Sound familiar?

But, importantly, and contradictory to what I have been yelling abt but whatever it’s 12:30 am, Lang Qianqiu is not a direct mirror of Xie Lian but a closing of a vital loop in the story. Lqq is very similar to xl (I will die on this hill!! Only I won’t bc I’m stronger than y’all and will keep swinging these pots and pans) but bc xl tries to do better and keep lqq from suffering the way xl has, lqq is able to have a gentler and more optimistic path forward. He’s proof that even a small act of kindness or even kindness to only one person still matters and has a ripple effect that can’t be seen when you’re in the middle of it—a thread started with xl giving the coral pearl to Lang Ying and closed with Lang Qianqiu returning the pearl to Xie Lian.

So I have no idea if any of this is coherent or compelling but I meant to be asleep two hours ago and the points are:

A) Lang Qianqiu is good actually

B) parallels!!!

C) look ive already started another wip about Lang Qianqiu and Xie Lian and I didn’t want this but no one else wrote it so now I have to so pls just accept this as a warning

*sort of air quotes around this for Xie Lian bc frankly Mu Qing was right & Xie Lian kicked feng xin out BUT on the other hand, it was experienced as a betrayal and we also again have all of Jun Wu’s shit so it evens out

#should I wait and proofread and edit this tomorrow? yes.#am I doing that? no <3 #idk what to tag this as #uhhh #tgcf spoilers #lang qianqiu #I don’t think this can reasonably be called meta #since I am unsure if it is even readable #tgcf #long post

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wewinbees · 4 years ago

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“you only saw me as a weapon!” an in-depth analysis of tommy and techno’s relationship /rp

a mild focus on techno’s thoughts since it’s his speech, but not one or the other is in the right here. a lot of this might have been said, but this is a BIG collection from pogtopia to doomsday to address as many angles as possible. to preface, i don’t think tommy sees techno as a weapon and nothing else, but the point remains that techno feels like he does, and that’s important.

this is from like january btw lol

we’ll start with “the blade” tommy’s nickname for techno, which got adopted by a lot of the server (as tommy’s nicknames tend to be). most other people have the Big [X] format, but techno gets this specialised nickname. i think the reason he developed a negative association with it was because of when it was used; when they need him for fights. the most important would be the vault reveal, with wilbur getting everyone to victoriously chant “we have the blade!” to boister morale. this would have been fine in and of itself, if it weren’t for the events of the rest of the day and what that name would come to represent. it ends up becoming a taunt to him, because that’s what people get close to him for. his use to them as the blade rather than his friendship to them as technoblade

tommy’s always very happy to call in techno for help, and techno usualy sorts it out with... minimal effort required. i do see this more as a blend of tommy’s pride in knowing techno and smugness at having that kind of upperhand in a fight over him viewing techno solely as a weapon to use, but this still ends up being detrimental to their friendship because of how much it happens. remember, the entire reason techno joined the server was to help wilbur and techno form pogtopia. techno doesn’t mind helping tommy out, but at some point it’s going to be frustrating, being called in for any and all minor struggles. but in the end of the day, it’s fine, because they’re brothers under the same cause. destroying manberg. Oh Wait.

the main issue came after the festival, with that faith and trust tommy had in techno being shattered; rightfully so, because watching tubbo get murdered was traumatic for him, because for tommy the pit was no way to settle that conflict (which reminded, wasn’t techno’s suggestion, it was proposed and pushed onto them by wilbur). since tommy sees technoblade as unbeatable, he couldn’t understand why techno was so easily peer-pressured by manberg. he was threatened by how many people were against him, he was stressed dealing with the voices telling him to do it, he didn’t see any other way out, he wasn’t getting any support from his only other allies even though he was looking right at them and they still did nothing.

but tommy didn’t understand because he thought techno could have won. techno did try to stall as well, but without orders from his friends he ended up following schatt’s, and once he realised he had the power to kill everyone on stage, he just gave into that power. the miscommunication during the pogtopia arc was why techno felt as betrayed as he did, and why the victim complex argument annoys me so much, since he was kept in the dark for that long while grinding resources for the army. also, since techno wasn’t there for l’manberg’s peaceful days or the start of the disc saga he would never understand how important those attachments were to people, so he’d feel little remorse blowing them all up (especially since he knew that was the backup plan for pogtopia anyway, and just because people were unhappy about it didn’t change the fact that it was a plan)

a lot of people say that techno should have known that pogtopia’s goal was to form a new government, that at some point he should have overheard the real plan. everyone agreed to ‘destroy manberg’ (as in the government not the land) but somehow techno never found out about the ‘restoring l’manberg’ part of the plan. how that happened, who knows, but in the end of the day, the writers chose for that miscommunication to happen for the story. it’s not a how or a why, it’s just a fact that was written in. he didn’t find out until it was right in front of him, and he was bound to feel betrayed by that, enough that he was driven to do something irrational. my personal theory is that techno was mainly following wilbur’s orders, and because wilbur was the real traitor, chances are he never mentioned any forming of a new government since he knew that would lose techno’s support. wilbur was probably using techno as a weapon, that was his mentality for a lot of people back then, but since he was the leader of pogtopia then that negative transference carried on to the rest of the members for techno, most of all tommy as he was the other key founder, and not as underhanded about getting techno’s help. i’d say wilbur’s address of techno during the final speech was the a key reason as to why techno doesn’t feel as used by him than he is with tommy, solidifying the anarchy bros before dying, meaning anything else could be revealed.

after the war, the bedrock bros were completely alienated from eachother. tommy started to blame everything about l’manberg’s destruction on techno, since wilbur died and ghostbur isn’t really at fault for anything. techno distanced himself from everything, going into retirement for the unforeseeable future because he felt like his violent anarchist tactics were futile and grew tired of constant conflict. he talked to tommy a few times during retirement, and every single time, he asks tommy how the government was working out for him. when he was at risk of being exiled, just before being exiled and immediately after exile. he wanted tommy to see the government in the same light as he did, because when l’manberg sold him out he realised they were the same. they’d both been betrayed by the government and from that point on he fully believed tommy would be better off away from l’manberg. but every time tommy said no, because he believed in the original dream wilbur had for l’manberg and because he trusted tubbo’s leadership. techno was smug when he was proved right because of course he was he’s technoblade. plus, they did view eachother as enemies at this point, so it’s not unacceptable for them to argue with eachother right now.

that brings us to the execution. traumatising! the refusal to run a fair trial and the dehumanising treatment from his old allies in pogtopia hammer this home, but importantly they rope philza into the chaos this time. ALSO it’s important to mention that techno was killed; he just got an extra life from the totem. he was actually killed and his character experienced that pain as punishment. he was pushed out of retirement, which was unjust in his eyes, since he believed he had genuinely changed. it didn’t help that quackity explicitly told him it wasn’t actually punishment for the withers, but instead a move to consolidate power, furthering his view of the cabinet as corrupt. from that point on he left retirement. he’d been doing well without violence, building connections with new people like vikk and lazar and finding a fragile form of peace, but in the end this shattered it. he’s back to being the blade, speaking with violence, because l’manberg made it clear there was no other way for him to be heard at this point. so he’s going to destroy them, even if he has to do it alone.

enter stage raccooninnit.

tommy taking refuge in techno’s house because he knew techno was rich enough for him to steal his resources and strong enough to defend him from dream is... interesting. he couldn’t go back to l’manberg, but he took refuge with a man who he viewed as a villain. this probably doesn’t help techno’s opinion of him, since he is quite literally using him for his resources, but in the end of the day tommy was desperate and quite literally on the verge of death, so he seemed to take some kind of pity on him. the exile period of their relationship is definitely the most important part of this argument, because it was just the two of them: no wilbur or pogtopia as an external force (though the pressure of dream and l’manberg still affected things) but in the same way ultimately doomed to fail. they fight for a moment, but ultimately settle as ‘business partners’. which quickly evolves back into a friendship like the one they had before the festival.

my least favourite take is that either one of them never valued the other at this point because this is just.... violently not true. they started off working for mutual benefit; tommy explicitly agreed to do minor terrorism in l’manberg and to help techno get his weapons back in return for techno’s help getting the discs back and taking refuge in his house. from the start both of them stated their limits:

techno was always planning on getting revenge on l’manberg for what happened on the day of his execution

tommy never wanted to upset tubbo, and wanted to put getting his discs back first

should note that tommy changes his mind on the disc’s priority later on, but at the point of their alliance he does make it clear that’s what he wants out of the partnership. the issue is that from the start both of them went in with blind optimism. neither of them lied to eachother or forced them to change their viewpoints but in the end of the day they could never be on the same side as long as l’manberg was involved. (note, i think some people think he wasn’t but techno was actually planning on helping tommy getting the discs back, with him getting annoyed at tommy letting tubbo give dream the disc because that made both of their jobs so much harder, but it was more of a long term goal bc he knew dream was hard to beat. plus before his execution, he visited tommy and strongly implied he would be willing to help with the discs, and that he would be a better ally in those personal aims than NLM were)

i don’t understand the ‘techno was only using tommy’ accusation here because like... how? what would he have to gain by having tommy on his side? he could definitely have blown up l’manberg without his help, so why bring him in at all? it was a very mutual agreement of ‘we’re using eachother’ that developed into genuine friendship. i’ve always seen it as a teaching experience: techno knows tommy had been wronged by NLM, and by extension tubbo, and by taking him on these minor terrorism trips, he’s showing tommy the worst of l’manberg. look, look at this execution stand, look at what they’ve done. and in doing this, he’s trying to prove to tommy that what he’s going to do to l’manberg is right. and in showing him the worst of NLM, he’s neglecting all of its good parts, but again, techno cant see any positives in l’manberg, and is trying to show tommy that everyone, especially tommy, would be better off without it. and tommy had criticisms of l’manberg before he was exiled, especially in regards to tubbo. he told ranboo the reason he chose wilbur to be president instead of tubbo was because he was worried the presidency would ruin their friendship, and Look At Exactly What Happened. techno highlighting the flaws of the country to tommy was easy because it WAS flawed and it hurt both of them. and techno’s hope was that tommy would join him in the eventual destruction of it, because he wanted to share his revenge with tommy and for him to get his own justice against l’manberg. but it... didn’t quite work out that way.

they both tried to make it easier for the other; techno told tommy he didn’t need to fight against l’manberg if he didn’t want to, but tommy came with him to the festival anyway to confront dream, despite techno’s mission being against the government in that situation. tommy started to view tubbo’s cabinet as corrupt for the execution and neglecting him during exile, and ended up helping techno out around the base and even toning down the purposeful annoyance (per techno’s ooc request). and the day before the green festival, he told techno he would help to destroy l’manberg (not knowing how quickly things would escalate the next day, since doomsday was fairly spontaneous) but in the end they would never be able to find a full compromise: techno would always be an anarchist and tommy could never hurt tubbo.

people accuse techno of not caring for tommy, which really annoys me because it’s not?? true??? if anything he shows more outward affection than tommy did. he didn’t have any benefit from taking in tommy, but he still did it. it’s not really basic decency either, given that they were technically enemies beforehand. he picked up on tommy’s fragile state around dream and defended, hid him despite the fact that he owed dream, he kept him away from logsted and the final control room after realising how upsetting they were. he exchanged the christmas presents, he jumped in to defend him against the rest of the server and when tommy betrayed techno, he was genuinely hurt! he was wrecklessly impulsive in a way the calculated blade usually wasn’t, almost blowing up half his house (including almost killing his villagers) because of the negative association with dnret.

that’s not to say tommy doesn’t also get absolutely crucified for betraying techno because of all of techno did for him. again it was somewhat inevitable. tommy said it himself, he was turning into someone he didn’t want to be, he was hurting people, and it was somewhat because he was living with technoblade. he was so powerless under dream, and he liked the feeling of power he got from teaming with techno, so much so that it drove him to cruelty, with even techno telling him he went too far with fundy. in the end, it’s probably for the best that he set that boundary and left to go back to l’manberg, but ultimately it was upsetting to both of them. techno felt betrayed because he genuinely thought tommy was his friend, only to be turned on last minute once again, now surrounded alone by enemies he was trying to protect tommy from. to him, allying with dream was just as bad as tommy allying with l’manberg. a betrayal for a betrayal, absolute reciprocity.

we all know the doomsday speech, with techno’s arguments being consistently stronger than tommy’s and much easier to defend, but we can’t just dismiss him. tommy had a lot of emotional input that day, and was angry at techno for a Lot of reasons, so he was more focused on shouting than making sense. he was more accusatory, while techno had fairly focused rebuttals (which, fair, i’m pretty sure that was techno’s first big addressal of most of that with other characters). it ended with tommy calling techno selfish for destroying l’manberg and techno coldly shutting tommy out for the betrayal.

betrayal was the driving force for techno’s “weapon” speech. tommy used him in pogtopia, tried to use him to stop dream exiling him and terrorising NLM) which he laughed at when told in character) and used him for getting the discs back. tommy wasn’t just using him, he genuinely felt like they had built a relationship beyond that, but when techno acted under his own ideals that went against his, then it was over. because tommy doesn’t value techno’s ideals, because they’re ‘selfish’ to him since he’s one of the only ones who believes in them. in turn techno sees that as making tommy selfish and as such they’re unable to compromise.

living with techno was an important part of tommy’s recovery process, which is still ongoing now. he saw immediate changes from his time with dream, claiming he felt “more me-ey” around techno and genuinely valuing his company. but he viewed techno’s alliance with dream as a betrayal, and he viewed the nov 16th incident as a betrayal. because he see’s techno’s belief in anarchy as selfish. something i never hear people point out is that tommy ADMITS he betrayed techno. after doomsday*, he says “all this time, technoblade told me i was betraying him. and you know what? (whispered) i was.” he’s guilty about it, and he understands that techno’s hurt. but he still can’t see him as being in the right, because techno took l’manberg forcefully and violently, and because tommy was hurt by their separation too. techno was powered by revenge more than anarchy during doomsday, which i think is important to point out. tommy had focused in on the threat of dream, and forgotten all the trauma techno went through with l’manberg, and left techno to rejoin l’manberg.

BOTH of them have explicitly stated “i viewed him as a friend but he never viewed me as one” and that’s just... devastating. at one point we can only hope that they have an in-canon conversation to actually settle all of this, but for now their storylines are separate and we’ll just have to live with that.

if anyone has anything they’d like to ask/clarify, or additions from any side i’d love to see it bc character analysis of dsmp characters is what’s keeping me going rn lmao. i said betrayal so many times here i am very sorry for clogging up the tag bc my readmore isn’t working yet (edit SAVED)

*i actually think this speech from tommy is very important, and not looked at as much as other stuff so im gonna link it here [55:52].

#technoblade #tommyinnit #dsmp #mcyt #bedrock bros #dsmp analysis #my readmore isn’t working sad face #can you tell im done with one sided discourse? i just can’t cope with black and white accusations they are all so so flawed #people are entitled to their opinions but sometimes it is just character bashing #the victim complex accusation rots my brain almost as much as people critising how c!techno shows emotions bc folks.... COME ON #if this is coherent i will be AMAZED because i should have focused on either pogtopia era or exile era #i don’t understand mcyttwt because this would be like five threads they have no room to argue anything how do they live #long post #my metas #if this post flops i will be devastated bc then i can’t justify procrastinating 2 essays #sbi #sleepy boys inc

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lazyliars · 4 years ago

Text

/rp

DreamXD actually slots very nicely into a working theory I've had for about two or so months now, mainly centering around one question:

What happened to Dream?

Namely, why did Dream change, when exactly did it happen, and was it solely an internal change, or was there an external force at play, specifically a preternatural one?

I think with DreamXD, we might finally have an answer.

Or at least some clues to follow. DreamXD presents a shift in every single paradigm the Dream SMP has had. Like, I think most of it is just being so utterly blind-sided by George Lore Real, but part of it is the massive ramifications of an Actual God* being present in the storyline.

((*On the other resident god of the server, Foolish:

DreamXD is different than Foolish, in that his characterization is so dramatically inhuman - Foolish talks and acts like a (somewhat eccentric) person, and his powers are, as far as we know, limited in comparison to the creative-mode godhood that DreamXD occupies. And whether that is because Foolish is not a "full" god (having been referred to as a demigod) or simply because he's spent so much time around humans, we don't know, but we do know that either way, DreamXD is NOT that.

DreamXD's voice is marked by glitches and dramatic shifts in tone, he seems to lack control over the different aspects of his personality, like the more "Dream" part vs. the darker one that threatens to eat peoples souls. The "normal" part even displays confusion when George references things that the "darker" part said, implying that it may not be fully aware of itself.

TLDR: Foolish acts more human than DreamXD, who has a very eldritch personality.))

To get right to the point:

The Dream we knew before November 16th, and the Dream we know now are not the same. Something changed, and it changed for the worse.

Consider: Dream was always antagonistic to the L'manbergians - he was always imperious to them, and he was responsible for starting a number of fights between his faction and theirs, just as many if not more than they were.

But, he was also not... evil. He'd pick fights with Tommy, the disc wars were still a thing, but the gravity of the spats they had weren't dire. They were fun. They were... actually a game. He wasn't like the way he is now. While in hindsight we can look at these events and detect a serious undertone knowing what's to come, at the time they were far from it.

There is an argument to be made that he had the same tendencies as now, just not expressed as loudly, and while I believe it's a valid argument, I disagree that it's proof of Dream always being the way he is now.

Sapnap, Badboyhalo, Sam. They all remember Dream as their friend - they remember someone who was, maybe a little aggressive and a lot competitive, but not cruel. Not needlessly murderous. Not someone who steals sentimental items and lines the walls of a disgusting museum to use against them.

Dream cut them out. Sapnap was totally blindsided. Bad doesn't seem to fully believe it. Sam blamed himself for not realizing and tried to take the weight of that crime on his own shoulders by becoming the Warden.

There's also the competing theory that what happened to Dream was purely psychological - either the circumstances slowly isolating him from his friends driving him to the do things he's done, or a desire for control that started early and continued to fester until it overshadowed everything else, or any combination of both.

And those theories are still valid, they could still be the case, but I haven't been able to shake the idea that there is something deeper at play. I can't overstate how the exile arc and everything after it have been so inhumane, so cruel, and... not exactly out of character in the sense that I could never see Dream doing them, but in the sense that I could never see him doing them for no reason.

And there really doesn't seem to be one. Dream says himself, it's like a game. He sees people as toys, puppets. And there just doesn't seem to be an inciting incident that could explain how he made the leap from semi-authoritarian leader who, despite being a warmonger, does love his friends, to heartless murderer who wants to reduce everyone he knows to dolls.

There's... ways, he could get there, but nothing that we've seen makes sense. There is a missing piece, something that must have happened from his POV that we didn't get to see because he doesn't stream.

And DreamXD could be it. This godly entity that claims that it is "a part of [Dream]" but that it isn't him entirely. That seems to share the lack of understanding of humanity that Dream has been displaying like when he asks if resurrecting Tommy was “cool.” But that still loves George. He still, despite apparently not having the same history as Dream, desperately wants to be George's friend.

If I had to pinpoint the moment Dream changed, it would be the day that he revealed that he switched sides, and was going to be fighting against Pogtopia. He was paid for this betrayal in the Revive Book.

I mark this as the turning point in my theory because it is the first time Dream mentions his affinity for chaos in the context of hurting others. However, we also know that this likely wasn't the day he actually made the decision to betray - as he revealed that there was a traitor among the Pogtopians, a fact that he likely would have learned before this.

Now, I mark George's lore stream as the introduction of DreamXD proper, and I want that on the record because it isn't technically his first appearance on the server.

Most people will remember him from Techno's stream, where he logged on to break the End Portal in a panic. I doubt the character was properly written into the lore at that time, but it fits neatly with the rest of what we know about him - a guardian of the server, and the keeper of it's rules. No contradictions.

What less people might know, is that DreamXD has made an even earlier appearance, and it's this one where things begin to get... interesting.

Around roughly October of 2020, Tubbo and Fundy did some improv'd streams centering around Demon Hunting, or rather, "Dreamon" Hunting, and it's during the first of these two streams that DreamXD makes an appearance.

The bare bones of it was - Tubbo is an experienced "Dreamon Hunter" and teaches Fundy his ways. They find Dream, and realize that he has a Dreamon inside of him, which is basically an evil version of him. They attempt to exorcise the Dreamon from Dream via various shenanigans, and eventually, they do a ceremony to free Dream. However, they apparently botch it, and unleash the Dreamon within. After more shenanigans, one attempt to fix it utilizing Fundy and Dream's wedding appears to work, but then DreamXD logs on, flys around at Tubbo and Fundy threateningly, and they end stream on the idea that there are probably more Dreamons to hunt.

Now. There's a lot to unpack here. I'm not gonna go into the nitty gritty details in this post, but I do recommend watching the Dreamon streams, as they have A LOT of details that, if this is getting incorporated into the main story line, could be important - especially the focus on duality, having TWO versions of Dream, which end up being potentially separated from each other.

(Also, they're just really funny streams. Tubbo and Fundy are at PEAK chaos and Dream plays along with their inane bit perfectly, it's just good content.)

At the time of the Dreamon streams airing, they were explicitly non-canon. IIRC Tubbo and Fundy referred to them as taking place In an “alternate universe,” which makes sense considering they would have been on opposite sides at the time (Manburg and Pogtopia.)

However.

And this is where I show you my wall of red string and newspaper clippings.

My singular piece of evidence for this comes from one line DreamXD drops. He simply says: “At least you're not hunting me.”

The Dreamon streams take place around early October. Dream reveals his betrayal of Pogtopia around November 6th-7th. The timeline of the Dreamon streams would line up perfectly with the idea that there was a catalyzing event that put Dream on the proverbial path to hell.

I do not believe that they intended the Dreamon arc to be anything other than a side story at the time, but considering that DreamXD himself was barely canon until now, I don't think it's out of the question that they took a look back at a fan-favorite minor arc, saw an opportunity to co-opt it into the current story line, and potentially fill in some holes regarding Dream's characterization all in one move.

On the question of whether this would be a GOOD storytelling move?

The Dreamon theories were prevalent during the exile arc, and I've got to say, I was never a huge fan. The detachment of Dream's actions from his intentions, and by extension his morality, never sat right with me. It feels cheap to make him a victim and say “a Dreamon did it!” in regards to all of the horrible things that he's done. It strips his agency and makes everything that happened less impactful in my opinion, and I stand by that reading.

BUT. With DreamXD introduced, I feel like it's necessary to look at this from all angles. And with the way DreamXD was characterized in George's stream, I don't think it necessarily ruins Dream's character to say that an external force was involved with his descent into evil.

Namely, the idea that whatever happened to Dream was not really a “possession” so much as a gradual loss of humanity, could be an interesting way to look at this. It implies that Dream was always capable of his actions, but grants us understanding as to why he would actually perform them, and why he might have become isolated enough from his friends that they would let this happen.

The Dream we know now could be an expression of his “worst self” brought to the surface by a Dreamon/DreamXD/other. It also begs the question of what would happen if that force were to leave him, and how it might cause yet another shift in character, especially if it were to be portrayed as less of a switch being flipped, and more of a withdrawal, with a gradual process of realizing how far gone he was.

To close this out, I've been stewing on the idea that Dream hasn't entirely been himself since the climax of the Exile Arc.

I think this theory holds water, but it's also not waterproof... there are plenty of holes, and a lot of that comes from the fact that Dream doesn't stream. We're left in the dark when deciphering his character, and what might appear to be the key, could just as easily be revealed as a red herring, or even nothing at all.

Regardless of the validity of the Dreamon theory, I think that DreamXD is one of the most interesting developments we've had on the SMP in a long time, if simply because his arrival coincides with fucking George Lore Real. God. I still don't know how to deal with that.

I always appreciate people adding to the discussion by the way! Feel free to reblog with additions if you like or leave them in the replies.

And if a single one of you comes to my blog on THIS. THE DAY OF MY DAUGHTER'S WEDDING. And calls ME a c!Dream Apologist to MY FACE..... I will be v sad.

#Dream SMP #DreamXD #Dreamwastaken #c!Dream #georgenotfound #dream smp analysis #dream smp theory #lazytext

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worstloki · 4 years ago

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please read the article 'How White Fandom is Colonizing "Character-Coding"' by Shafira Jordan and quit while you're ahead

Okay, so I read it and see the problem, and I’ll try to address all their points in order because I don’t wholly agree with the article. I know it’s a lot to read so I’ve put tldr; sections at the end of each :)

Misusing the Term Reinforces Negative Stereotypes for Marginalized People

The article essentially argues that labeling characters which are villainous as POC-coded is bad because they’re not morally pure and doing so "reinforces the idea that people of color are naturally dangerous and not to be trusted.”

Which is fair as you don’t want all the representation to be of ‘bad’ characters, but I also don’t believe all representative characters have to be ‘good’ either as it would be equally racist to divide good/bad in such a way. Not that I would place Loki under ‘bad’ to begin with, but arguing that characters shouldn’t be labelled as POC-coded for reasons unrelated to what’s presented in the narrative or because they did bad things is :/ even if lack of good representation is a prevalent issue in current Western and influenced media.

Ideally there should be a range of representative characters that fall into ‘good’, ‘bad’, and ‘anywhere in-between’ because variety and complexity in character types should, in theory, be treated as common practice (which can only happen with a multitude of representation!).

And a bit unrelated but... within the fictional context of Thor 1, all the Jotnar (sans Loki) are presented to the audience as ‘bad’ by default. They desperately want to get their Casket back to the point of attempting stealing it (from the ‘good’ characters), they fight the heroes and even when the gang and Thor (’good’ characters) are enjoying or going overboard with taking lives it’s inconsequential, Laufey wants to kill the opposing king (who just happens to be a ‘good’ character) and will resort to low-handed methods to do so, etc. The narrative itself is from the frame of reference of the ‘good’ and we only see warriors of Jotunheim though so we understand why it’s like this, because regardless of their race/experiences the narrative carries, even if it most definitely would be seen as racist from our real-life perspectives if the ‘monstrous’ race were presented by actual people of colour, even if it would make sense for the people on on different realms living in different environments to be different from each other, and realistic even for that to be the root of some conflict.

tldr; not using a specific label to prevent negative presentations of the characters seems a bit strange to do when the coding would be based off the text, but with limited representation available I see why it would be done, even if I still believe minority-coding is free game to expand/interpret.

Improperly Labeling a Character as “POC-coded” Suggests the Experiences of All People of Color are the Same

The article argues that labeling Loki as POC-coded “suggests that all people of color have the same experiences, when in reality, people of color come from different places, have different cultures, and have different traditions.” And while it’s true that the term doesn’t go into detail about which particular experiences (and these experiences can vary vastly due to diversity!) the appropriate measure would be to remove the umbrella term POC altogether as people of colour tend to also vary. But that’s also exactly why it’s an all-encompassing general term? It’s a way to denote anyone who isn’t “white” and has the associated cultural privilege that comes with the concept of white supremacy.

And, obviously, in the fictional setting presented, the concept of white supremacy is not prodded at, but cultural supremacy is definitely one that makes recurring appearances, right next to the parts about Asgard being a realm built on imperialism with ongoing colonial practice.

My take on this is that Loki’s narrative features a struggle with identity after finding out he’s of a different race and was being treated differently his entire life and being Jotun was presumably a part of the reasoning even if he didn’t know it. He’s basically treated as of less worth for inherently existing differently. I do believe that racism is a common-enough POC experience, but that while Loki was born with blue skin he passes/appears white which is why I don’t say that Loki is a POC, just that he has been coded/can be interpreted this way.

There’s also the entire thing with Loki trying to fit in and prove he belongs by trying to fit the theory and be The Most Asgardian by committing genocide (which ultimately makes no difference as he’s still not the ‘acceptable’ version of Asgardian), and the denial/rejection of his birth culture in destructively lashing out towards them (which even Thor is confused by because Loki isn’t typically violent), and the fact his self worth plummets and he is passively suicidal upon finding out he’s Jotun (internalized racism? general drop in self-worth after finding out he’s adopted and has been lied to? Bit of both?), but what do I know, I’m sure none of those are, at their base, common experiences or relatable feelings for anyone or decent rep because we see such themes on-screen presented wonderfully in different lights all the time.

tldr; every set of experiences could be different, some types of discrimination could overlap, if you limit an umbrella term to only very specific circumstances then it’s no longer an umbrella term.

Suggesting that White Characters are Meant to be Seen as People of Color Ignores the Actual Characters of Color that are Present in these Stories

I don’t agree with most of this section, but that may just be the way the arguments are put together, which I don’t blame the author for.

“ Implying that Loki is a person of color completely ignores Heimdall and Hogun, the only Black and Asian Asgardians who appear in the movie. ”

Characters such as Hogun and Heimdall which are played by actual people of colour have smaller roles in the films and any prejudice they could face for being POC in-universe isn’t made apparent, while Loki at the very least comes to the realization that something he couldn’t change (race, parentage,) was having him treated differently his whole life and had to come to terms with it. The Vanir/Aesir are also both treated similarly on-screen, and Heimdall having dark skin isn’t plot relevant, whereas Jotnar are treated as lesser consistently and are relevant through the movie (breaking into the vault, Thor and co. attack Jotunheim, Loki’s deal with Laufey, the attempted regicide (and the successful one XD), destroying jotunheim, Loki saying he’s not Thor’s brother,).

I also see including characters as POC-coded as... more representation? In all canon-compliant interpretations of the characters Hogun being Vanir is always explicitly mentioned because it’s a fact that just is, up to the appearance and even the world-building of Vanaheim in some fanworks use particularly East Asian culture as inspiration. I have never come across a Marvel fandom Heimdall interpretation where he’s not Black... but because these characters are more minor/side-characters of course they get less attention!

“ In Loki’s fandom, Heimdall’s name sometimes gets thrown in to suggest that it was he all along who was the real villain due to his “racism” against Loki and the rest of the Jotun. It is, of course, ironic to suggest that somehow the only Black Asgardian to appear in the movie can oppress the privileged white prince. “

I... don’t know where to start with this. But the example of theorizing given in the article wasn’t suggesting Heimdall was bad or trying to explain his actions in Thor 1 by saying he is Black... and just looking at a character’s actions shouldn’t be done less or more critically because of skin tone in my opinion. Heimdall may have been trying to do what was best and protect the realm but if the audience didn’t know that Loki was up to dodgy things then the coding would be switched around because he was trying to spy and committed treason and then tried to kill Loki. People... can hold feelings towards others... regardless of skin... and suspect them... for reasons other than skin... although I do still have questions about whether Heimdall knew Loki was Jotun or not. (Even if I personally don’t think it’d make a difference to how he’d treat Loki?)

Some Loki fans have also suggested that because Jotuns have blue skin that this alone makes him a person of color (even if the audience is only allowed to see Loki in his true Jotun form for mere seconds of screentime). This, again, shows a lack of understanding when it comes to race. It doesn’t matter what skin color the Jotuns have.

Race can differentiate between physical and/or behavioural characteristics!! Not being blue all the time doesn’t make him any less Jotun!! He’s got internalized stuff to work through and is used to being Aesir!! At least 1 parent is Jotun so even if Loki was passing as Aesir he’s probably Jotun!! (I don’t know how magic space genetics work for sure but Loki being Jotun was an entire very important jump-starting point in Thor 1!!). It’s a fantasy text and typically things like having different coloured skin indicates a different race or is sometimes if a species has multiple then is just considered a skin colour. That’s how coding works!! The Jotnar are very specifically the only race we see in the movie with a skin-tone not within the ‘normal’ human range, which alienates them to the audience from the get-go!! They’re an “other” and on the opposite side to the ‘good’ characters.

Both Loki and his birth father, Laufey (Colm Feore), are played by white men, and it is impossible for a white man to successfully play a character of color.

The specification of men here bothers me, but yes, you don’t get ‘white’ people to play characters of colour if it can be avoided. (And it can be avoided.)

This also connects with the previous point made that people of color come from various places. There is nothing specifically about the Jotun that could be traced to any specific person of color, and even if there were, there would be no way for white men to portray them without being disrespectful.

This is where arguments about the definition of coding and how specificity/generalizations and do/don’t come in. I know I’m subjective and lean towards the more rep the better, but while I agree ‘white’ people wouldn’t be able to respectfully play a POC I don’t think that rule should have to carry over into fantasy-based fiction. I know texts reflect on reality and reality can reflect within texts, but if contextually there is racial discrimination and there are similar ideas which resonate with the audience’s own experiences I’d say it’s coded well enough to allow that.

tldr; Thor 1′s narrative revolves mainly around Thor and Loki, of which race is kinda kinda a significant theme in Loki’s part of the story. Not so much explored with less-developed side characters such as Heimdall and Hogun, even though their actors are actual people of colour.

How Much of this is Really Well-Intentioned?

In the fantasy space viking world Heimdall and Hogun don’t face any on-screen prejudice and their appearance is not mentioned (which is nice, for sure! good to have casual rep!) but adding on to the roles they play in the narrative the explicit fantasy-racism in the movie isn't aimed at Asian/Black characters, but towards the Humans -to a lesser extent- and the Jotnar, including Loki, who only just found out he comes under that bracket.

The article mentions how fandom space toxicity often “reaches the actors who portray the characters,“ which is true, and it’s shameful that people have to justify their roles or presences are harassed for the pettiest things like skin tone/cultural background, but I don’t see coding characters as removing the spotlight from interesting characters such as those which are actually POC, rather expressing a demand for more rep, since well-written complex characters which are diverse are often absent/minor enough in the media, and therefore can get easily brushed aside in both canon and fandom spaces.

tldr; It’s obviously not a replacement for actual representation, but, if a character is marginalized and can be interpreted as coded, even if they would only be considered so within the context of the textual landscape, I don’t see why spreading awareness through exploring the coding as a possibility for the character shouldn’t be done, even if the media is being presented by people who are ‘white’ or privileged or may not fall into the categories themselves, as long as it’s done respectfully to those it could explicitly represent.

#please don’t patronize me by asking to quit while i’m ahead #it doesn't help anyone #so anyway i've summarized my opinion on the coding thing here for the many anons whose answers could be answered in this ask alone #i think i covered everything?#the article started out okay but I found it kinda :/ in places even though there were valid concerns #I do believe that in-universe context and creators of the media should be taken into account #and that if marginalized themes can be touched on by non-marginalized groups then... great? fictional texts can help people understand #i do also think that rep being presented should if not on-screen have people working on the product to support and ensure it's done well #the world is cold and harsh and cruel and i just wanted a desi Loki AU but here we are #I've got to try and summarize how I think Thor 1 presents Loki's part of the narrative well with POC-coding there because of fantasy-racism #even if the POC-coding is ignored the themes of racism are far too apparent to ignore #loki spends the entire film being a multi-dimensional character and having an entire downfall fueled by grief and a desire to be loved #I don't think attaching a label to such a character would be a negative thing... but perhaps for casual watchers it'd be a bit :/#apparently not everyone takes into account the 1000+ years of good behavior around that 1 year of betrayal/breakdown/identity crisis/torture #MetaAnalysisForTheWin #MAFTW #ThisPostIsLongerThanMyLifeSpan #TPILTMLS #AgreeToDisagreeOrNot #ATDON #poc-coding #yes i ignored everything not about loki in the article what about it #hmmm I know people are going to disagree with me with what should and shouldn't be allowed #I know some people are okay with it but some don't like the poc-coding thing #and that's fine #completely understandable #makes me uncomfy to talk about fictional space racism in comparison to real life but I do think that lack of rep is why coding is important #for some people coding is all that they get #but also!! @ifihadmypickofwishes suggested the term racial allegory and I do believe that is also suitable here!! so I’ll try using that too #rather than poc-coding even though I still believe it applies

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kuboism · 4 years ago

Text

Bleach Canon Vs. Studio Clown Episode 1

Intro to the series

WARNING: Long read but theres plenty of pictures

The first deviation we’re greeted with is what the anime presents as the arrival of hollows into the human world. With a likely artistic rendition of them forming from the shadows of Hueco Mundo and dripping/bleeding over into the human world like splotches of ink, after which they disappear - unable to be perceived by humans.

A/N: Which, kubos to the anime, is rather neat.

The anime also decided to incorporate the first volume poem which is the thematic beginning and a great establisher of the mood/themes of Bleach, which roughly translates to:

我らは姿無きが故にそれを畏れ

“We fear that which cannot be seen”

And then they curiously add a line to this poem?

姿無き故に敬う

”We revere that which cannot be seen"

A/N: Which, initially seems on brand with the spiritualism of that “which is not seen” - the shinigami, DEATH itself if you will. However, unlike the themes of “fear” and “fear of death/the unseen”, “reverence” is not really a theme prevalent or definitive for bleach. Reverence is not particularly reserved for death or death gods, but antagonists with themes of divinity/the Soul King himself, but I digress.

Next off the bully scene has a couple of missing/reworded lines, as well as some of the delivery changed, but overall it’s not significant enough to mention.

I also wish they’d kept Ichigo’s shit yourself scary face from this moment right here, since it really underlines how serious and personally invested Ichigo is in bringing small justice to the souls of the departed, but I can only pray a future remake does include it.

^ I am disappointed in y’all :/

vs.

v Karma delivery, bitch

Then for some reason the next scene is changed significantly:

In the manga, it builds up slowly to Ichigo’s reveal of supernatural abilities with the iconic TM character profile intros (which I can see why weren’t recreated in the anime, but I sure wish they put them in....)

with him spooking the bullies off with the ghost girl right behind him

Versus his scary face doing the job instead.....

It’s a small change, and I can see why it would be opted for - we don’t really know if they even saw the ghost in the first place (then again you could argue that would spook them anyway). There is a tonal difference in the long run though. The manga emphasizes once again *why* ichigo is scolding them in the first place - he sees the people disrespected by them knocking down the vase, he wants them to acknowledge their actions *because* in his mind, there are real victims he knows from it. While in the anime, since the ghost is not yet introduced, it feels more like “you are disrespectful to the dead” in a more generalized way vs. him actually being acquainted with the dead and treating them like the living.

(Again, not sure why change it so much at all........the suspense and reveal are in the manga just the same.... but ok)

As well as cutting off this small moment where you can see Ichigo’s very human (and cute!) interactions with the ghosts. To him they’re just as real as the living, and he lends them a hand whenever they ask for help.

Also lmfao this 4kids level of censorship.....

It goes on rather faithfully for a while, no significant omissions, then Pierrot decides to randomly replace Yuzu’s lines with Karin??

Manga:

Anime:

Which is an odd choice, given that not only does Yuzu sense ghosts just fine (albeit at a much lesser level than her family) and that later comes into play with Fishbone & Grandfisher, but Karin literally later admits that she doesn’t even want to acknowledge their presence, so why the change....?

They also cut short Karin’s little talk about Ichigo’s stats, which is a fair change for screentime’s sake, but mentioned for the record.

There’s a bit of a divergence with Yuzu lore, when the manga explicitly states she sees them, but not “clearly”, the anime focuses on her barely sensing them. I guess it doesn’t matter that much in the long run, since she is not that prevalent in the story, but it’s here for the record nonetheless.

Anime:

vs.

Manga:A

Also this next bit was removed, probably for the sake of pacing (which, totally fair!!), but it’s funny and I love the Kurosaki family so here it is:

It does make the flow a bit better in the manga, since this talk of selling his talents distracts Ichigo and creates an opening for his father to strike, in the anime, the same is done with Ichigo just randomly saying

and thats where his father attacks him, which isnt really an issue, just kind of funny of how the manga is like:

Ichigo’s distracted by his sisters plotting to sell him out and hence Isshin has his chance to strike back

vs the anime being like:

Ichigo randomly thinks about dinner mid convo about ghosts and thats what distracts him from play-fighting with his dad

gfdkhlgfdg okayyyy....moving on

In the manga this scene is interspliced with Ichigo’s inner monologue about the nature of his powers (with hip jargon like “for real” courtesy of Viz )

(but my beef with Viz translations are for another day)

Also the line about “He told me more ghosts than ever have been haunting me” has been given to Karin for some reason, probably to make her feel more included in the scene/Ichigos life.

Notably, Isshin’s response is changed from “What?! He talks about stuff like that with you (Yuzu, singular)” to “What?! He talks about stuff like that with you guys?” as well, again probably to include Karin more into the dialogue. (Mmmm ok....)

Minor detail, but Karin’s lines has been changed to more “boyish” speech structure in the Japanese dub, which may seem insignificant, but ...... that is for later.

.....

This little exchange

is replaced with:

Which, seems innocuous adaptation differences, but Yuzu’s lines keep decreasing and it’s a short enough moment to like....include and establish how motherly Yuzu is acting towards Ichigo.....but ok...huh.

And now we get into the big boy changes.

So, probably for the sake of grounding the supernatural element of the series, the anime decided to skip time to the next morning and introduce the hollow attacks with a news report.

Which.....is an interesting choice. I am assuming this is addressing how the real world perceives the hollow attacks, which Bleach doesn’t put too much effort into addressing, but very soon after this we learn about stuff like memory replacement and other various technology to keep things under wraps so this is either redundant or implying that shinigamis have not been doing their job, which hm......

Next off is the bizarre choice to paint Isshin out of the picture for the night

Not sure why, but ok

Again, where’s the shinigami with their Kikanshinki (memory replacement devices)??? Pierrot where’s the lore coherence......

Anyway, Ichigo goes to replace the girl’s vase, but suprise-surprise she’s gone-zo. Wonder what happened to her.....

(And....again, people vehemently don’t want a reboot when the anime looks like this? )

So Ichigo hears a scream and a hollow scream and follows the sound (Ok?).

Totally random hollows attack. Which Ichigo somehow has never seen so far? Mind you, this isn’t like in the manga, where Fishbone was sent by Aizen specifically after Ichigo to make him aware of it. These are random-ass hollows attacking people, so how come Ichigo suddenly sees them. Ya coulda played it safe Pierrot, and stuck to the book, but we got plot inconsistencies episode one so let’s party.

The girl is, of course, not eaten and they run away.

She trips at the most inconvenient moment. (can ghosts trip? Ghost don’t even have legs in japanese lore and Kubo draws them floating around so okkkkkkkk)

(ok ok, im just being petty, bUT YKNOW)

(convenient tripping on deadass levelled ground is convenient)

(also God I really want that bag Ichigo’s got on his shoulder, it looks so nice)

Random-ass hollow closes in and

BOOM

Rukia

(Now, if the rest of Bleach and the manga didn’t exist I would like this moment. We get a glimpse into Rukia’s abilities, into shinigami as a concept and we don’t really get to see her slice and dice hollows that much overall so the moment itself is rad in isolation.

Now, unfortunately for Pierrot’s screenwriters, Bleach manga exists and so does it’s lore, which again, would not be inconsistent with each other if the adapation was faithful. Now, Ichigo sees a shinigami, for some reason, for the first time in his 15 years of life. All of a sudden.

You could argue, that much like in the manga, this is all part of Aizen’s plan TM, but like, she literally leaves right after leaving Ichigo gaping in awe ghfkjgdf. Why’d Aizen give him an appetizer, I really don’t understand how this change is benefitting the narrative in any way. It’s ....dare I say....generic.)

Rukia yeets the hollow

(why is this kid suddenly not wearing shoes?)

and goes off on her merry way, leaving Ichigo shooketh

ALSO RUKIA MA’AM THERES A FUCKING STRAY GHOST RIGHT AT YOUR RIGHT????? ISNT IT YOUR LIKE....JOB.......... TO HELP GHOSTS MOVE ON??? i know killing hollows is the fun part, but like ghjkfdlgfd ??? are you gonna ignore her???

( his fucking face ghfjdkgdlfgfd)

So after this wholeass pointless detour (you’ll see why it’s pointless in a moment) we timeskip again (the filler is strong in this one. These 6 minutes were worth not coming up with something cohesive and removing scenes that actually make sense ah yes)

Ichigo is in deep thought TM about who tf is the stranger he’d just seen. Likely mulling over the monsters and how this person was able to slay said monsters. Probably thinking how unusual they are.

and as if on cue

the stranger makes their presence once more

(my God these faces gfhgkldfg)

....

Now let’s briefly address what happens in the manga instead.

Instead of the whole timeskip scene with the fight, Ichigo simply returns to his room on the same day, and oddly enough recognizes the species of the butterfly he sees? (nerdy boi! nerdy!! boi!)

rukia arrives much the same

(With the little text emphasizing how he’d never been aware of soul reapers, which is unsurprising given their secrecy, and makes sense in the long run since their first meeting is specifically orchestrated by Aizen. Two species that werent meant to interact brought together by his schemes.)

Back to the anime:

Ichigo pauses to ponder who tf they are and why the fuck they’re there.

and then the anime has the gall to suddenly revert to sticking to the manga, which like.... Ichigo kicks her for no reason? I guess because she isn’t answering? Even though Ichigo knows she has a sword and can wield it? Reckless boy.

Manga Ichigo thinks she’s a burglar, therefore, unsurprisingly, is comfortable kicking her outta his house. It’s a silly moment, but it also shows how accustomed or stupidly brave he is with the supernatural.

In the anime Ichigo asks her who she is instead of all that, and she responds pretty similarly to the manga

AND THE NEXT SCENE IS WHERE IT CLICKS WHY THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY TO REMOVE ISSHIN FROM THE HOUSE.

(Ichigo and Rukia addressing the pointless filler, this leads nowhere)

Rukia check him out like she’s checking if the oranges on sale dont have mold on them

slapstick ensues

and Rukia decides to answer his question.

Vs. the manga in which Isshin doesn’t leave his children home alone for some random conference and is actually used very efficient for two reasons:

1) building up on the burglar gag with actually funny slapstick that is based on a previously established joke

2) Instead of Rukia just saying “oh usually people can’t see me”, we get an actual demonstration of it, the reader gets to see “oh Isshin can’t see her - she must be a spiritual entity,” which further clicks with her surprised reaction at him being able to kick her in the first place.

The next scene is the classique Pierrot censorship.

Ghost girl runs away from what I’m assuming is Fishbone.

Aside from not showing her get eaten, the scene is pretty much delivering the same message,

bUT

BECAUSE OF THE STUPID ASS FILLER WITH THEM MEETING RUKIA BEFORE THIS, I CAN ACCUSE RUKIA OF NEGLIGENCE.

UNLIKE THE MANGA, where Rukia arrives the night before and is specifically seeking Fishbone, therefore having no time to help this girl pass away,

This vvvvvvv

could have been prevented if SOMEONE DID THEIR FUCKING JOB THE DAY BEFORE VVVVVVV

(I rest my case. Thank you Pierrot for making Rukia either negligent or an idiot. Awesome, And mind you, these changes were unnecessary. The manga’s pacing is fine. They could’ve extended scenes. But nope, had to go for making them meet beforehand.)

Anyway, we get to see some actual stakes in the manga

The next scene which is this in the manga

has two changes to it. Firstly, obviously Isshin being consoled by Yuzu isn’t included since he isn’t home in the anime, and even if he were, I can see why that would be removed, cute as it may be.

And secondly, due to them having met prior Ichigo asks two additional questions:

And Rukia nods at both, which means she acknowledges that she had seen the girl the hollow was after and yet did nothing to help her pass on.

(Reminder the Bleach anime was in production WAAAAY past the first 4 volumes, which gave a good general idea of the series, which y’know, was fine to adapt as is.

You’ll see these changes add up into becoming inconsistent with further Bleach lore. There’s a reason people call Bleach a hot mess, and I’m afraid Kubo ain’t really it.)

(Volume 14 Note from Kubo where he talks about the anime being announced)

Back to the series

Pet peeve time: Wish the anime was half as expressive as the manga

These scenes are supposed to represent

This panel:

(Nitpicking? Perhaps, but idc)

So uh, this scene is odd

Again, because of the addition of that filler with the hollow

Ichigo has seen her in action

And they even added Rukia trying to convince him

even though, yknow???

LITerally the previous day???

Anyway in the manga, where Ichigo has reason to be distrustful of her and her claims since y’know hes never seen her or a shinigami in action, but has enough proof that she’s a ghost bc his dad didn’t see her, he simply dismisses her before she can reply, and instead of just getting angry for being called a pipsqueak

she shows both Ichigo and the audience proof of her spiritual powers by binding Ichigo and forcing him to quietly listen to her explanations.

(To reiterate - Anime Rukia has to verbally try to convince Ichigo WHO SAW HER FIGHT A HOLLOW THE OTHER DAY that shes no ordinary ghost. And because of that, she has no other reason to use Sai on him other than that shes mad she was called a pipsqueak bc she just tried to verbally convince him shei is a shinigami. When they could just adapt the manga and have her both demonstrate her powers and put him in his place at the same time. Wild.)

Also CRIMINALLY BORING SHOT, WITH CRIMINALLY BORING RUKIA

#NotMyRukia

LOOK AT THE MANGA

LOOK AT HER SMUGLY OWNING ICHIGO’S IGNORANT ASS #FuckYeahRukia

Also the subs may not show it if you’re watching it on Netflix, but anime Rukia says “I am not allowed to lay my hands on humans outside orders,” which like, you ARE LITERALLY DOING THAT. Manga Rukia is fine with bullying Ichigo, but she draws a line at killing him, but man Anime Rukia, you give no fucks about the laws huh.

why so cheerful?

(also Rukia be right tho)

(specifcally compared to hell you could say Soul society is a resftul place lmfao)

Also anime salary man gets to rest in peace, even like, pray and shit

Meanwhile the manga

YEET TO SOUL SOCIETY

(also notice how we’ve been robbed of ichigo’s silly socks

I swear the anime knows how to suck the soul out of the manga

Get it? Soul! haha ....moving on.)

Really Rukia? One of your jobs?

GUESS YOU WERE OFF DUTY HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(I’M SORRY BUT LIKE, SEE HOW POINTLESS THIS FILLER IS UGH!!!)

(Again pet peeve but look at how ugly this screen is COMPARED TO THE MANGA)

(What have they done to you, queen)

(also they never mention the name Konso ( or as Viz calls it here -”soul funeral”, thanks Viz)

Next on, not a pet peeve, but an observation:

Anime Rukia keeps her sketchbook in her kimono

Manga Rukia keeps it at the titty

Yep, which you neglected to do the day before,

she literally says “With the konso I did just a moment ago” like she used the word before. Like you can contextually get it, but why cut that line out of the dialogue if you don’t change the next line it’s referenced in?

There’s also a dialogue change from the manga’s well, Viz uses “vaporize” which is not a bad choice given the specific wording Kubo uses, but the original says

昇華 • 滅却

sublimate/convert • extinguish

which is a clever little nod/foreshadowing to the nature of souls in bleach and that they can be “converted” in and out of a hollowfied state.

While the anime just says “to slay hollows”, and albeit it lacks the little nod the manga has to offer, I can’t see how they’d include it in the anime at that stage so I’m fine with them simplifying it to like, an exorcism.

A better question then Rukia - WHY DIDN’T YOU SEND OFF HER SOUL????

also WAIT THE GIRL IS STILL ALIVE?? she’s dead-dead by this point in the manga.

BULLSHIT !!! YOU LITERALLY EXPLAIN LATER WHY!! ACTUALLY YOU EXPLAINED EARLIER WHY!!! YOU LITERALLY SAID THIS, 1 MINUTE AGO :

Anyway, Fishbone almost grants her the priviledge of escaping this God-awful anime, but is suddenly stopped?

AND CAN TALK??

wait WHY DOES FISHBONE TALK?? GHFJD isnt this supposed to be a juicy reveal for later when Ichigo realizes “hey theyre not actual complete monsters - but used to be humans!” Hm, ok.

Also leaves her alone? Damn ok...

Reminder:

Moooving on...

Speaking of the manga, this little moment is missing:

Since there is no pointless filler that would make him ask about the ghost girl therefore exposing Rukia’s slacking off of her duty, Ichigo realizes that there must be a hollow nearby bc in the manga he actually has braincells to spare.

Also wiping off the Baron’s moustache moment is gone 😢

Missing and dearly missed is also this moment, which consolidates how protective Ichigo is of his family. He only needs to hear Yuzu scream to click that the hollow is nearby and his family is in danger. I feel like anime Ichigo should be even more worried since his sisters are alone but ok??

Also foreshadows their dynamic of Rukia trying to stop his reckless attempts at pushing himself to protect his family, bc yknow....she has her own Kaien trauma to process.

Next off....

This is .... a choice....

They were very eager to give Yuzu’s lines to Karin just a couple of moments ago but now this whole exchange:

Where we see a very pragmatic yet soft side of Karin

She doesn’t know what is happening, and doesn’t expect her brother to fight it - he just wants him to be safe, because she loves her family. At least warn him before it gets to him and hurts him.

is replaced with this:

Yuzu, sweetie, what do you think he can do to achieve that.

I guess at least Anime Ichigo tries to get Rukia to do her job as she looks down on Yuzu in silence.

But compare it to the manga:

#MyRukia stops by Karin to check for a pulse and reassures Ichigo that his sister is alive.

Manga Ichigo is NUMBER ONE oniichan in town and doesnt have time to call out to a stranger to save his family - HES BEYOND READY TO GO FIGHT, RECKLESS AS IT IS, EVEN THOUGH HIS OWN FAMILY BEGS HIM TO JUST RUN. because he cant let himself be unable to protect them. He cant live with himself if he doesnt try his darnest to protect them.

*elevator music playing as ichigo tries to get rukia’s attention but she fucks off downstairs, but instead of doing shit he just does the worm on the floor*

which I guess is more realistic for a teenage boy, but Ichigo is literally traumatized by being unable to protect a family member. Y’all think a ghost he’s never seen before is gonna stop him?

Yooo, pathetic. #NotMyIchigo

108 notes · View notes

ryukyuan-sunflower · 4 years ago

Text

Response to the Moral Question of the MugenxFuu Romance

This is a full response to an anonymous ask I received:

“Can I ask why you ship fuugen? Isn’t Fuu a minor and Mugen is 19.”

This is a rather...complex and loaded question. There’s multiple things to address but I’ll start simple and work up from there. I will first go into my personal feelings on why I ship the pairing, evidence, and then the more complicated concept of the character’s ages both in reality, as well as in the fictional anime. Hopefully it will alleviate some distress on the issue. If it doesn’t, and you consider the age gap morally unacceptable, then it might unfortunately serve to make Mugen out to be a morally questionable character, implied romance aside.

The Simple Question: Why do I ship it?

I ship Mugen x Fuu because it’s implied canon by the creators.

I believe strongly, and have found and provided plenty of evidence in my numerous other posts that support my belief, that Mugen and Fuu were written to have romantic feelings for one another. These feelings were never addressed, acted upon, nor explicitly spelled out for viewers. But the subtle implications of their unsaid feelings added up, episode by episode. The interviews of Shinichiro Watanabe, Ayako Kawasumi and Ginpei Sato only solidify my interpretations and findings.

The actual anime aside, here are the links to my posts concerning the interviews, if you are interested.

-Shinichiro Watanabe about Mugen’s Character.

-Ayako Kawasumi and Ginpei Sato about Fuu’s Feelings for Mugen in the Roman Album.

I adore the entire cast of Samurai Champloo, as much as by themselves as I do as a trio. I love Jin just as much as Mugen and Fuu. However, I do not see any implication of Jin having romantic feelings with either of them. His romance is canonically with Shino and his role for Fuu feels more brotherly and fatherly to me.

Personally, I am not a “crack shipper”. I am not someone who typically likes two characters and pairs them off together for my own amusement. I have nothing against crack pairings, nor their shippers, but it is not my taste. I enjoy romances that have some type of evidence or backing behind it. So it is not as if I simply ship Mugen and Fuu because I like Mugen more than Jin.

If hypothetically, all the things that happened with Mugen and Fuu happened with Jin and Fuu—if Jin saved her constantly, if Jin and Fuu had strange, intimate moments like the wrist grab scene, if Fuu jumped in the way to save Jin’s life, if Fuu cried for Jin seven times, if Fuu’s voice brought Jin back from death, if Jin gave up his sword for Fuu—well, I would not be a fan of the Mugen and Fuu ship. I’d be a fan of Jin and Fuu.

But that is simply not how the anime was written.

On that same note of liking an implied romance, I am not as interested in blatant romance stories either. Implied, subtle romance is so interesting because it leaves enough clues that one has to find themselves, and then you are able to make your own interpretations and “what if” scenarios surrounding it. This is why I enjoy the story types of, say, the Souls video game series and its related titles. (Demon’s Souls, Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro). The story lines have to be figured out, and while there is evidence and clues dropped all over, nothing is ever specifically stated. But even so, we can come to solid conclusions that are difficult to disprove, but also never fully confirmed.

Samurai Champloo spells out very little for viewers. Example: Never does the anime state what island Mugen is from. We only know it’s in the Ryukyus. But based on historical evidence, and also symbolism in the show (the paantu and the trees in his flashback) we can assume it’s Tarama-shima or another island in Miyako.

Never do Mugen and Fuu state they have feelings for one another, but it’s in subtle dialogue, numerous times. Most blatant however, is when Sara tells Mugen “It’s as if you’ve never been loved by anyone.” and then Fuu proves her wrong by saving his life by throwing her own in the way, only seconds later.

Their actions fascinate me. Both Mugen and Fuu demonstrate self sacrificial behavior for each other, and show how much they care with actions rather than words. Most of all, I enjoy the romantic trope of “love leads to a character’s redemption.” Mugen’s feelings for Fuu is what redeems him from the sins of his past, and saves him from a life without meaning and only pain, anger and hatred. These aspects of his dark character are highlighted both by the dialogue of Mukuro in Episode 13 and Sara in Episode 21. Fuu being his redemption is also symbolized in her saving him on three separate occasions. The last incident, when she calls him back from death and the Paantu taking him away, is the most symbolic of his “redemption”.

Samurai Champloo is a direct response to the cynicism of Watanabe’s previous work, Cowboy Bebop. Where revenge and the past consumes Spike, ruining his future and love, Mugen is redeemed by love and is able to face his past and press on.

Here is a fantastic article about the concept of Mugen’s love for Fuu being his redemption and also being a direct response to Cowboy Bebop.

All of this aside, because of the second comment, I’m assuming that this isn’t necessarily what you were asking.

“Isn’t Fuu a minor and Mugen is 19?”

I’m guessing you’re implying that either the romantic pairing is impossible due to their age gap, or it’s morally wrong.

I was conflicted how to answer this, at first. I know this can be a triggering topic. So I decided on providing several explanations. I hope at least one answers the question properly, or at least sheds some light on the issue.

Either it will justify why there is nothing morally reprehensible about the Mugen x Fuu romance, or, it will unfortunately show that Mugen is morally questionable, depending on how the evidence is taken.

First, at 15, Fuu is not a minor in her time period. Second, Mugen is either 19 or 20 depending on the source.

Samurai Champloo is not set in one specific year of history, as the anime is not only anachronistic, it historically takes place in multiple years that could not coincide. In essence, Samurai Champloo is not one year, but “a chanpuru of one whole era.” This era is the Edo/Tokugawa era, which includes the years of 1603-1868.

In the Tokugawa Era, Fuu is considered an adult. She is a young adult, yes, but in the eyes of everyone, she is an adult. This is both historically accurate, and is also demonstrated numerous times in the anime. Fuu’s sexualization and her being seen in a romantic way is never frowned upon by any of the characters in the entire series.

Brief disclaimer: Nowhere in my love of the Fuugen pairing or fan interpretations of the characters’ futures, do I see any sort of sexual relationship between Mugen and Fuu developing when she is 15. After they part ways, is where I like to make my fan conclusions on them meeting again when she’s older.

I also want to clarify here and now, that I’m not a supporter of a 15 year old entering a romantic relationship of any kind, let alone a sexual one in real life. I think that teens should work on themselves and not get swept away by romance and sexuality, especially frivolously. It’s irresponsible and dangerous. But, it’s also unrealistic to believe all young people will never fall in love, whether it’s fake or real. If there happened to be a man who was 5 years older than a girl and the two did develop feelings for each other, I believe nothing should be pursued between them until they are both of age.

Adulthood in the Tokugawa Era

I want to first talk about the concept of Fuu being a minor. In short, she is not a minor in her time period.

To begin with reality first, the life expectancy hundreds of years ago was much lower than now. In Japan now, the average life expectancy is in the 80s. But hundreds of years ago, it was estimated to be about 50. Women in particular had the complication of fatality from childbirth. Led makeup, childbirth, and also STDs were a huge threat for courtesans of the time period as well. Many women died in their twenties.

As for the concept of ”adulthood”, the adult age of 18 only started in the Meiji Restoration (late 1800s- early 1900s) when Japan contacted the west and emulated its practices. The age of 18 being an adult nowadays is largely based on the setup of the education system. Whether 18 is too young or too old is a matter up for debate and varies country to country.

Specifically, in the Tokugawa Era, the age of adulthood was considered when one entered puberty. This was generally 15 for a male and 12 for a female.

Here is a link to the full article on the topic of the shifting coming of age, if you are interested.

In the case of aristocratic children, such as boys raised as samurai, the Genpuku ceremony that transitioned children to adults varied in age. During the early Tokugawa era, it was 15-17, while later into the Tokugawa era, during less civil unrest, the age dropped to as low as 13. At this age, these young men could then marry and were likely pressured to do so. Marriages in the Tokugawa Era were very different than nowadays as well. Many nobles and royalty had their daughters married off at young ages such as 8 years old.Though, the sexual nature of these relationships did not develop until the girl was likely of child bearing age, which was in the teens.

Taking the historical 12 year old age into account, Fuu being 15, is then already three years into adulthood.

Fuu’s Depiction as a Woman in the Anime

In regards to Fuu’s maturity, she has no guardian, nor caretaker, which shows she is an independent adult making her own decisions. Yes, Mugen and Jin are her bodyguards, but they are not her legal guardians, because she does not need one. It is her who commands them and leads them. After they part ways, she is fifteen years old (perhaps a year older based on the time span of the anime) traveling the country alone.

She was forced to grow up very fast. Not only is she an orphan, but Fuu’s resourcefulness allows her to survive on her own. She tricks two complete strangers to escort her across Japan. But Fuu is fully functional as an adult, arguably more than Mugen or Jin in some ways. She works, fishes, cooks, sews, tends to wounds etc. Fuu is by no means innocent to mature situations either. She’s seen Mugen and Jin kill numerous people in front of her, which is traumatizing in itself.

In regards to Fuu’s sexualization,on separate occasions, there are bath scenes in the anime, showing Fuu partially nude. There are also scenes of her undressing. Morally correct or not, it is clear she was sexualized like many young anime females.

Aside from that, here are examples of male characters viewing Fuu as an adult woman, romantically or sexually.

Episode 3 and 4: Fuu is thrown in a brothel. While the legality of her being forced against her will just for the sake of paying off a debt is somewhat in question, the fact that she is 15 in a brothel is not. Brothels were not an undercover organization. It was completely legal in Tokugawa Japan, and Fuu being 15 as a courtesan was not illegal. When an ugly rodent man buys her, it’s served as comedy.

Episode 5: Fuu becomes a ukiyo-e model, the backwards beauty, for Moronobu Hishikawa, who was a real historical figure. This grown man, probably around Jin and Mugen’s age or maybe older, also is not considered a creep for his attraction to her. In fact, it’s not even considered wrong that he paints a nude picture of a 15 year old. Again, because she’s deemed a woman in this time period.

Episode 8: Nagamitsu, who is leagues older than Mugen and Jin, asks Fuu to become the “harem of his heart”. He is attracted to her, sees her as a younger version of his wife when he first met her, and even asks her on a date, to which she accepts. This entire interaction is played off as comedy, and not that he’s some creepy grown man attracted to a minor. More like, he’s a bumbling buffoon. His two sidekicks, the beatboxer and Ogura do not intervene, nor make a comment that it’s wrong he is interested in a 15 year old when he’s in thirties or forties. Because quite simply, in this time period, it’s not wrong.

Episode 16: Okuru tells Fuu that “a woman with a healthy appetite is a good woman” when she is devouring fish.

If you stand firm that it is still morally wrong and all these characters were creeps for being interested or saying these words to a 15 year old, that is fine. If you think it is morally wrong to ship Mugen and Fuu because of the age gap, and refuse to believe that the two are an implied romance, that is fine too. I can’t convince everyone.

However, I will make the counter argument then, that liking Mugen as a character means liking a morally questionable character. Romance and feelings aside, the reason for this is simply how he treats and talks to Fuu.

Mugen’s Questionable Dialogue to Fuu

If shipping them is wrong, then what Mugen directly says and does to Fuu is just as wrong. In my opinion, it makes it weirder if he doesn’t develop feelings for her.

Episode 2: In the original Japanese dub, Mugen tells an unconscious, intoxicated Fuu that he’s going to rape her. “Okasu kureru” is the dialogue.

The English changes this to “Let’s strip her and dump her.”

Episode 11: When Fuu asks why Jin needs to go see a woman when she’s around, Mugen then responds “Because you’re flat chested”, not to be confused with “You’re a child.” When she says her kimono makes her look slender, Mugen calls her a liar and then says “Show me.” He asks Fuu to undress for him and show him her breasts...

Episode 20: Mugen stands up naked for Fuu in the hot spring even though she’s clearly flustered. Exposing oneself to a minor is an offense in the modern era. But he doesn’t stop there. He berates her, and then peeks his head out to look at her naked too.

All of these examples are meant as fluff and comedy too, no matter how offensive they can be. It also implies his attraction, interest and his consideration that she is indeed a woman. This is then furthered in his dialogue with Jin.

Episode 12: When they read Fuu’s diary, Mugen asks the odd question to Jin. “Man to man, what do you think of her?” This “man to man”, implies Mugen wants to know how Jin feels about Fuu as a woman.

As for a debatable canon example, I have the need to bring up the Samurai Champloo: Sidetracked video game on PS2. In Japanese, it is entirely voiced by the same cast as the anime: Kazuya Nakai, Ayako Kawasumi and Ginpei Sato. In English, Mugen is not Steve Blum, but Fuu and Jin are the same voice actors as the anime: Kari Whelgren and Kirk Thornton.

In it, Mugen develops an attraction to a girl who looks nearly identical to Fuu: brown hair in a ponytail, big brown eyes, pink kimono, three hairpin beads. The kicker is her name is Yuu. The even bigger kicker is that she is younger than Fuu.

Here are the links to the scenes. Japanese audio is much better, as a warning.

Link to English, Fuu catches them alone and tells Jin “I had no idea Mugen was a cradle robber!”

Link to Japanese: Fuu calls Mugen a “lolicon”.

When the girl asks “Do you like me? You can lie if you want.” he tells her:

Link to Japanese: “Suki da. Uso jane.”

Link to English: “I like you. I ain’t lyin’.”

And the two share a kiss, before she dies. Worth mentioning, Fuu also admits to being jealous about all this and a fortune teller tells Fuu that this is her “heart talking.”

While debatable canon, the video game still highlights this concept that Mugen will even like a girl younger than Fuu (anywhere from 12-14), so long as she resembles Fuu.

If we pretend for a moment that Fuu is indeed a minor in her time period, then that makes Mugen’s actions and comments out to be even worse. Not only is he a pervert, but he’s then a pervert flirting and making sexual comments about a ”minor”.

Underaged Girls and Age Gaps in Other Japanese Romances

If you still believe that there is something morally wrong, regardless of the time period it takes place in, I have more modern examples in media.

Modern Japanese shoujo manga and anime (shoujo being a genre directed at teenage girls) is rife with romance stories of older guys with younger girls. It’s not frowned upon in Japan, and even for its readers in the west.

I will give you some major examples I can think of, off the top of my head.

Inuyasha: Inuyasha and Kagome. Inuyasha is over 150 years old (not counting the other 50 years he was comatose). Yes, he ages slower as a half demon, but that is still 150 years of experience in life. Kagome meanwhile, is 15 years old and does not come from the Sengoku era. She’s from the modern era. If one wants to argue that Inuyasha doesn't count because every decade for him is one year, meaning he’s supposed to be “15 in human years”, then there is the matter of Miroku. Miroku is 18 years old, and fondles not only Kagome who is 15, but Sango who is 16. And he and Sango later become a romance.

Shugo Chara: Ikuto and Amu have an age gap of 17 and 12. While there is a love triangle element, it is debatable that Ikuto is more her true love interest in the manga. This takes place in the modern era.

Dengeki Daisy: Kurosaki and Teru have an age gap of 24 and 16. This also takes place in the modern era.

Incidentally, all of these aforementioned romances share some parallels to Mugen and Fuu in some way. Whether the guy is argumentative with the girl, a homeless wanderer, antagonist by nature, teasing about her lack of a figure, a bodyguard/protector role etc.

These are just a few of the more pure Shoujo examples directed at young girls.This does not include age gaps between characters, or underaged girls in anime meant for men or adults in general. They can get far more morally questionable, in my honest opinion. Mugen and Fuu barely scratches a surface. There is clearly a cultural gap between Asia and the West and the concept of age gaps, regardless of one’s personal moral stance on the subject.

Mugen and Fuu’s Actual Age Gap and Maturity

In the Tokugawa Era, their age gap of 4 to 5 years is incredibly small. Even nowadays, that age gap is very small, if Fuu was a legal adult in modern times.

Tsuru-himegimi, the real daughter of Shogun Tsunayoshi was 8 years old when she was married to her husband Tsunanori of Kii, who was 12 years her senior.

As for the anime’s depiction of them, there was never a sense of “Fuu is child. Mugen is a man”. It always felt like the two were in a similar age bracket.

I must ask the question, if Fuu or Mugen’s ages was never revealed, would it change the context of the story at all? If Fuu was older, would it change it? Personally, I don’t think so. In this case, because she is both physically developed and also deemed a woman in the anime and historically, it changes nothing.

Their interactions, their bickering, their attitudes, and the way Mugen yells at her, and the way Fuu reprimands him, it always felt like they were similar. They both exhibited many immature, innocent qualities, as well as adult qualities. It was Jin who had a more mature demeanor, being the calm, responsible one, who would rather not intervene with their nonsense. This is another reason why I see Jin as a father figure to Fuu: a representation of the samurai who smells of sunflowers that she did not have growing up.

These images here show their similarities in behavior quite well. And there are many more examples.

Conclusion

A good, well developed character is not a perfect one. There is no denying Mugen is flawed, morally questionable and sometimes straight out an antagonist. He steals, he kills, he was an ex-pirate who likely raided and pillaged… Realistically, he would have no qualms about being attracted or developing feelings for a woman who is 4 or 5 years his junior, let alone the other crazy stuff he’s done. Especially when, in their time period, there is nothing wrong about it at all.

Regardless if his morality is in question or not, what makes the implied romance so interesting is the fact that he didn’t act upon anything sexually with Fuu. His actions towards her were selfless, and Mugen developed greatly by the end. But because of his actions and words,and jealousy, it does not come off as simply a sibling or familial relationship that the two have. This differs from how Jin and Fuu interact.

Most importantly, Fuu serves as the catalyst for Mugen’s growth and redemption of his sins. Unlike Jin, Mugen saves Fuu time and and time again, making him her hero, despite being seemingly an ex-criminal that only works in self interest. Jin did not require this change, as he was always an honorable samurai from the start.

Both men found purpose for different reasons.

Mugen needed love.

Jin needed duty.

I think that covers everything. Well, unless your question is simply why do I ship them when the characters are young and I’m older than them.

As of the time of making this post, I am a 23 years old woman. The first time I ever set eyes on the anime, I was 8 or 9 years old. As a kid, I had my first innocent, childlike suspicion of a romance between them when Mugen first went to save Fuu from the “bad place”, being the brothel in episode 4 without any reason to, while Jin didn’t. Also, he saved her in Ep 1 and 2 and Jin didn’t.

The first time I got to watch the whole anime, I was 13 and saw the full story play out. And at that point, I was more convinced. Over the years, I rewatched, looked into a lot of the history and symbolism used in the anime, analyzed the episodes, and I became more convinced. I shipped it when I was Fuu’s age of 15. I shipped it when I was Mugen’s age of 19/20. And, I will likely continue to cherish the beautiful story of Samurai Champloo and the implied subtle romance of Mugen and Fuu for years to come.

Perhaps it is a reminder of the purity and innocent nature of love for me. These two did more for each other, cared more for each other, and were more entertaining with each other than so many cliche, blatant romance stories.

#samurai champloo #fuugen #mugen and fuu #Mugen Samurai Champloo #fuu samurai champloo #shinichiro watanabe

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omegawolverine · 4 years ago

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Plesse tell me about queerness in the get down!!

okay okay queerness in the get down let's fuckn goooo

disclaimer: I havent watched this show in full for like 5 months at least, probably gonna get something wrong and/or forget some more important bits. also this wasnt proof read I just word vomited

tws: period typical homophobia, abuse mention, f slur use, bury your gays trope, overdose mention, mention of a creepy possible age gap (the age gap hasnt been confirmed so that's why its possible), cops

going from least to most prominent queer characters, let's start with mylene cruz!

so, from the beginning of this show she has an established romantic relationship with ezekiel (although the status of their actual relationship changes frequently throughout the show) and though this was a relationship she was hesitant to pursue, it is clear that she does have romantic feelings for him and if not for them both having growing careers in very different music genres (zeke specifically working in a genre that she repeatedly labels as bad because she thinks they're ruining records + that it isnt real music because they're using someone elses piece and rapping over it, that's not really important here tho lol) they probably wouldve had a much healthier, smooth sailing romance. that being said theres a few things that happen in the show that, while not explicitly clear, or even really good coding at that—to the point where you wont catch if you really arent looking for it (and trust me, I always look for coding, hers was just so little that it flew over my head until I saw someone else mention it)—are still cool to think about!

so, for starters, I wanna mention the toy box performance, which was performed by mylene and regina, who are best friends. that's all cool and shit, and you dont really think much about it...until you hear about the fact that the show runners purposely colored a lot of the scenes in that performance with the bi colors. like. the writers after the show ended basically said "oh yeah there was plans to make her coding more explicit, but our shit got cancelled soooo" and then dropped the fact that she was gonna be bi (or at least implies bi) in the series, which puts a new twist on a few things.

now, besides the bi coloring in the background of the toy box performance (which was mostly on scenes with her and regina, which involved a lot of uh,, lowkey lewd dancing. with each other. in very revealing outfits. wooooo), there's her music! I dont tend to read too much into this one bc, like I said before, her coding is fucking light and the writers themselves said they didnt really get to do much with it, but I think some stuff with her music is interesting. specifically how her, yolanda and regina's song set me free blew up because dizzee, resident (lowkey enby coded) bicon, got their song played in a queer club. also that the song was majorly important to dizzee and started playing literally right as he kissed a boy for the first time and realized "oh shit I like boys that's bonkers". also that the song can be taken in a gay way since literally the entire thing is about becoming your true self, fully and unapologetically, which is what both dizzee and mylene's entire character arcs are about. dizzee (and a lot of other queer people, apparently), heard this song about being set free and it resonated with them so much that they got that shit most of its popularity.

speaking of dizzee and mylene, they parallel each other a lot in the way that their arcs are about them realizing who they are, coming into themselves and no longer just letting people treat them like shit in a sense (dizzee starting to tell people essentially that they can call him weird all they want, they can make fun of how he acts, what he likes, how he dresses, etc. but he likes how he is and quite literally saying "it's okay to be an alien" as he has consistently compared himself to one throughout the show vs mylene learning that if she wants to be a disco singer she needs to put her foot down, not let anyone, not even the love of her life, not even her abusive father, stop her from achieving her dreams, etc. and continuing to pursue her career with or without their support). one more little parallel that I think is interesting is during I think s2 towards the end of the show is when dizzee and thor are shown together having fun with each other, painting all over the building and each other and are basically just being happy and in love together and then they have these clips of them being interspersed with clips of mylene at a party where she is starting to realize that if she wants to get anywhere she needs to be her own main priority and that she needs to put her career and her dream, which is what makes her the happiest, above all else if she wants to succeed. idk I just think how the show made these two into a weird parallel, accidental or not, is neat. maybe not an explicitly queer parallel, but I think at least how her music and whatnot helped dizzee, the main queer character in this show, blossom, is important.

moving on we got shaolin fantastic also known as "oh no your internalized homophobia is showing-"

so, heres a quick list of...interesting shao facts:

Consistently referred to as fag/faggot (shaolin fanfaggot is my personal favorite); he gets really defensive about this despite nobody actually thinking he's queer, it's just people being assholes to be assholes, and he is the only character consistently referred to using a slur, especially a homophobic one, especially for a "straight" character. dizzee, a canonically queer character, is called a fag less than shaolin is even though dizzee actively goes to gay clubs, has a not so secret dude he "hangs out with" and wont let anyone properly meet, paints his nails, wears less than straight clothes even by the 70s standards and is just all around the definition of fucking queer (and I mean like in the weird way, not the gay way). in fact theres only like once I can remember him being called a fag and it had nothing to do with him actually being gay it was literally just like thrown out there the same way you would call someone a bitch.

Has only shown sexual interest in women, yet refuses to have deeper relationships with women in general (possibly because of trauma but who knows) but takes his relationships with his "brothers", specifically zeke, very seriously

Tells zeke and zeke ONLY his real name when zeke was planning to stop being his friend bc shao more or less got boo boo, a like 14 year old black kid, arrested for selling hard drugs; he was clearly scared and trying to do anything to keep zeke around, literally chasing him down the street and hounding him until he got zeke to stop and argue with him

Kept threatening to beat up zeke in the end but couldn't actually bring himself to do so, instead saying that zeke is "fucking lucky" before walking away

Let's zeke get away with things that nobody else can, in general just has a weird soft spot for ezekiel that he shows with nobody else

when shao found dizzee with thor in a vaguely compromising situation (like they were just shirtless covered in paint sleeping next to each other but shao had also seen everything they painted on the walls ((which some of it was sus)), it was clear they had painted on each others bodies and dizzee had been routinely disappearing with this guy for weeks now yet not producing nearly as much art, at least, as far as we audience members know) he didnt judge him but instead, waited for him to get cleaned up and then told him something along the lines of "theres a reason why im so secretive blah blah blah [not everyone needs to know everything about me]", which, in context, kinda implies that he might be a lil. a lil homiesexual. jus a lil.

whenever even the possibility of zeke leaving him comes up he absolutely loses it. he has literally cost ezekiel life changing opportunities because he thought zeke would just up and leave him for them. this could be abandonment issues bc he's a severely traumatized character, and that probably does contribute to it, but it also is just not a reaction he has to any of their other friends just randomly dipping in and out of his life soooooo

generally speaking, this mfer has got either bisexual with a big hard on for zeke coding or homosexual with terrible internalized homophobia and still a hard on for zeke coding. either fucking way, that nigga gay. he gay as hell. gay as fuck man. there wasn't really much to analyze here tbh bc the coding is just so fucking obvious if you look for it or you are/have been a gay person who's dealt with at least a little bit of internalized homophobia.

also, just a sidenote, idk how fucking old shao, but I'm praying hes like at max 19 bc I'm pretty sure zeke is a minor in this show and shao definetly is not so the whole him being heavily implied to have a crush on ezekiel thing is kinda. oof. not oof if zeke is like 17 but any younger than that? OOF.

edit: apparently the characters are only supposed to be a year apart in age but i had no clue about that before writing this post and since shaos age was never actually stated in the show i naturally assumed he was an adult since his actor Looks Like An Adult. this is definetly on me to a certain extent, but i also never saw anything about this when trying to find our their ages so 🤷‍♀️ maybe i just didnt look deep enough, sorry!

now moving on to the main event...marcus dizzee kipling :]

so, first things first, let's talk enby coding bc him being bisexual was already confirmed!

um, to start off, I just wanna say I dont think this enby coding was intentional or even really coding, it's just moreso me being a dizzee kin on main and knowing as a transmasc enby he has very transmasc enby vibes. for example:

cool, gender neutral nickname that everyone calls him

paints nails various different colors

the whole wardrobe is just a transmasc enby heaven...fishnet shirts, jean overalls, jackets and cuffed pants galore, the big colorful pins, etc

gender neutral hairstyle (when I had my fro it was very sexy and made it easy to transition between hyper masc and vaguely fem, which is pog)

comparing himself to/representing himself consistently with an alien character (though this is meant to represent his sexuality, it could also double as a gender thing too, not neccesarily bc of the whole nonbinary alien trope but bc an enby who likes aliens might heavily identify or compare themselves to whatever their idea of an alien is, whether that just be a genderless entity or a motherfucker with fly style and no need to be perceived as anything other Wacky As Hell)

moving on from there, let's talk about how his queerness is presented to us and how, while it may be a really good piece of representation, especially coming from netflix, it still lacks in A Lot of places.

so, let's start with good things!

i personally really like the get down's queer rep with dizzee bc it's (for the most part) nonsexualized and very very soft, about dizzee figuring himself out and realizing there is a place where he fits in, and about two teenagers in the 70s falling in love over their shared passion for street art. it also features an interracial couple where both boys challenge stereotypes both about queer men and men of color, which is epic poggers and very sexy. this piece of rep specifically is very important to me bc I am a queer black person and even tho interracial relationships are mostly normalized now, I've still had people give me shit for primarily dating white people in a town that is...primarily white lol

mm anyways, I can also appreciate how in the get down, dizzee being represented by rumi the alien is not a thing specifically related to gender (as it often is) and instead is about his sexuality and just in general weirdness and how it has led to him being alienated amongst his peers, poc or otherwise. him seeing himself as an alien is not about just his queerness, which is important, it is about him being a queer black man who talks different, acts different, dresses different and is "soft"—he isnt a walking black male stereotype and he wouldnt have been seen as masculine back in the 70s by any stretch of the imagination. this can be relatable to a wide spectrum of queer poc, from queer black men currently who still have to deal with this shit or to people like myself who are afab neurodivergent mixed race enbies that have always been signaled out as weird and alienated for it. dizzee is god rep bc while he has a small part in this show, his parts are very impactful, hard hitting and show queer poc of all ages that they arent alone and that it's okay to "weird", you just need to embrace it because somebody will love you for you, as thor did for dizzee.

that being said theres um. some minor problemas here,,,

namely:

dizzee and thors first kiss

the lack of development this pairing got

the way dizzee was confirmed bisexual off screen, he never said the words himself, just showed interest in both genders

the way dizzee and thor were never even confirmed boyfriends or just fwb so most of the fandom just calls them boyfriends bc Why Not

dizzee was implied fucking DEAD??? AT THE END OF THE SERIES?????? AND THOR WAS IMPLIED ARRESTED?????????????

now, these might have been things that wouldve been fine had the show been given it's full run but it wasnt which is why we are now left with probelms.

so, from the top, let's go over these: dizzee and thor's first (and only "on screen") kiss was one that was shown in a montage of other queer people making over and doing other vaguely romantic/sexual things, one of those things being a whole ass naked titty being mouthed at, but the actual kiss...was just not shown? like they really did just say "yes they kissed <3 you know this from the context clues of it being in a montage with kissing, hickey giving and titty sucking <3 but no we will not show it <3" LIKE HELLO? I SAW A NAKED BOOBIE BUT NOT TWO MEN KISS??? HUH????????

also, dizzee and thor were both fucking high as hell during this bit like this isnt a terrible thing but it's also like sometimes you do shit when you're high that you wouldnt do sober and they just never kissed again on screen so like?? like idk that's not that bad but it does kinda irk me since they deadass got no other on screen intimacy after that unless you including painting on eacher other or sleeping next to each other on a shitty mattress but not touching at all during it bc they were both at opposite ends of the mattress like half way off it

so yeah, that was trash. then we got lack of development, which kinda goes with the "dizzee being a bisexual but he never says it in canon" thing cause like...okay dizzee was already sort of a side character from the get go like he wasnt the mc by any means, but he became way more of a background character as things continued until we basically only saw him for performances or when he was with thor, yet they got no fucking development as a pairing other than "dizzee realize he gay, he like thor, he and thor spend time together and ig probably do some gay stuff but we dont really know bc we only ever see them do graffiti together now" like?? tf am I supposed to do with that shit. answer. quickly. and then theres dizzee not being confirmed bisexual, which is just a running problem with shows literally doing everything to say a character is bi except for having the character just...say they're bi? which would be so easy? like a good way dizzee and thor couldve had some development is by thor teaching dizzee things about the queer community that he didnt even know existed, thor couldve helped him understand what being bi meant and helped him label himself and whatnot but instead we got an off screen confirmation that the writers had bisexual in mind when writing him. which is garbagé.

the whole thor and dizzee never having a confirmed relationship status is also a development problem cause like literally nobody knows if they were just friends who made out, maybe fucked, who knows, or if they were dating bc dizzee does give a love confession but a love confession doesn't mean there is a relationship, especially since thor didn't say he was in love either (as far as I remember, I could be wrong, plus whether or not that really happened or was apart of dizzee literally overdosing during a performance is unclear so 🤪)

and now for the biggest issue...bury your gays trope.

during the season 2 finale, dizzee and thor are chased by cops after they are found doing graffiti, one of the cops is able to catch thor while the other chases dizzee into a train tunnel and there is a train seen headed straight for him before the show cuts to black on a train horn. the show writers claim that if they had gotten another season, dizzee wouldve been alive but since they didnt and since that's essentially super fan trivia knowledge, most people dont fucking know that and instead had to watch a black queer teenager chose death over being fucking arrested by a white cop. on top of that, thor didnt see any of that shit because he was caught and the cop started hauling him off while dizzee was still being chased so thor literally has no clue where his friend/possible boyfriend fucking is or that he's likely dead in a goddamn tunnel all alone, unless you count the fucking pig that chased him in there who wouldve died too. this shows rep was so fucking good as far as most shows go on not having major fucking problems, on not being toxic and over sexualized, etc, etc. and then they just. killed a black queer teenager for no fucking reason. like it was literally the last episode ever, it would add nothing to the plot, it would just devastate fans and devastate it fucking did. I dont cry easy but seeing a character I identified with, who I had hyperfixated on, die because he'd rather that than be arrested is terrible. it fucking sucked.

so yeah. that's my all too extensive thoughts/analysis on the get down's queerness. theres definitely stuff I missed, or misinterpreted, or looked too much into, etc, etc., but this was a fun thing to spend time writing sooo yeah!! thanks for the ask anon, sorry this was just a big rambley info dump, but hopefully you get some enjoyment out of it since it took like 3 hours at least 😭😭 feel free to ask clarifying questions lol

#shit self #asks #the get down #mylene cruz #shaolin fantastic #dizzee kipling #long post #analysis #info dump #idk if anon has seen tgd or is just being nice so i tried givinh background to things #kinz #bangerz #discourse

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aster-ion · 3 years ago

Text

Sylvie x Loki Might Not Happen and Here’s Why

***SPOILERS FOR LOKI TV SHOW***

1. They are basically siblings

Even though they have different personalities, backstories, and physical appearances, that doesn't change the fact that they are the genetic equivalent of siblings. No matter what Timeline you're looking at, both Sylvie and Loki are the offspring of Laufey and whoever he had children with. We know this because they are Variants of the exact same person, meaning that if either of them were born to someone other than Laufey, they would have been pruned as a baby. And since they weren't, that means they must be just as genetically similar as siblings are.

Because of this, the idea of Sylvie and Loki engaging in any kind of romantic or sexual relationship is extremely disturbing to a lot of fans. It's too big an oversight to brush past, especially when the show has continued to remind us over and over that they are, in fact, both Lokis. Maybe if them being the same person wasn't such a major plot point, it would be easier to ignore the facts, but it is, and that means that Marvel is basically pushing either an incest or selfcest (depending on how you look at it) type relationship. And that’s extremely risque for a corporation as large as Marvel, especially with a character as beloved by fans as Loki.

2. It is terrible LGBTQ+ representation

And before anyone says anything, no, it is not because Sylvie is portrayed as female and Loki as male. I've seen a lot of Sylvie x Loki shippers say that the reason people don't like the couple is due to it being one between a male and female, but that's not true. Loki and Sylvie were both confirmed to be bisexual, meaning that they can engage in a relationship with anyone of any gender. It would be completely valid for either of them to pursue romance with someone of a different sex and still be bisexual. No one is arguing against that, and if they are, I definitely do not agree with them.

However, the problem comes in when you take into account Marvel and Disney's (who owns Marvel) long history of queerbaiting. There have been countless times that Disney advertises their "first gay character!" only for it to be a single line of dialogue or a brief shot. Marvel in particular has used the popularity of certain LGBTQ+ ships and headcanons in their fanbase to generate media popularity that they don't actually follow through with in their movies/shows. So when Loki was confirmed to be both genderfluid and bisexual in Episode Three, lots of people felt like they were finally getting a win for representation.

But those people, myself included, appear to have been let down again. The first two official queer characters had so much potential to go off and be with anyone they wanted, but instead, the show has set them up to be in a romance with each other. Now, this wouldn't be problematic on it's own, but when you take into consideration the questionable nature of their romance from Point One as well as the fact that the show has explicitly referred to it as "twisted," it raises the question of whether or not this is actually good representation. Because the fact is, in one episode the writers went “look, it’s two queer people!” and in the next, they said “their relationship is disgusting and demented.” Marvel’s first bisexual characters being borderline incestuous/selfcestuous does not sit well with me at all.

All of this is made even more confusing when you take into account the background of the Loki crew, most notably, the director Kate Herron. She also directed the Netflix series Sex Education, which has quite a bit of very well done representation of all kinds. So how is she managing to fail so badly on this project? It makes me wonder whether she truly is just losing her touch or if this is all a misdirection. Personally, I'm hoping for the latter.

3. It does not send the "self love" message people seem to think it does

The writers, director, and cast of Loki have said multiple times that the relationship between Sylvie and Loki is meant to act as a metaphor for self love. And in a way, that makes a lot of sense. Despite creating different identities for themselves over time, they are still ultimately the same person and therefore share a special bond because of it. And there's a lot of potential that can be done with that concept.

Loki is an extremely complex and intriguing character. He has experienced a lot of trauma in his past that has shaped him into the person he is today. And that person is clearly very broken. He has never given away or received any kind of love, with the exception of his mother and possibly his brother, Thor. Other than that, he's had no healthy friendships, romances, or perception of himself. It makes sense for him to be confused by this pull he feels towards Sylvie, who is both alarmingly alike and vastly different from himself.

Something this series does exceptionally well is breaking Loki out of his comfort zone. He is finally forced to see himself from other people's perspectives. It started with the file Mobius showed him in the first episode. Loki was able to view his actions apart from himself, and was hit with the realisation that he had been hurting people, and he didn't like that.

Loki is also confronted by the existence of the Time Keepers and the TVA, who describe him as an antagonist and nothing more. To them, his role is to make those around him look better, even if that means he repeatedly gets the short end of the stick. Mobius mentions that he disagrees with this and that Loki "can be whoever and whatever he wants, even someone good," adding another layer of depth as to who Loki could be in the future of the series.

Another huge moment for Loki's character development is while in the Time Loop Prison with Sif. Though he starts out annoyed with the situation and recalls not feeling apologetic when he cut off Sif's hair, the longer he is in the loop, the more he changes. Loki admits things to himself that we have never seen him say aloud, such as the fact that he is a narcissist that craves attention. Sif telling Loki over and over that he deserves to be alone makes Loki question whether or not he believes that to be true, allowing him an introspective moment where he really has to think about who he is.

Now with all of that being said, I'd like to tie in why this is important to the writing of Loki and Sylvie. They act as a mirror to one another, representing both the flaws and strengths of "what makes a Loki a Loki." For once, Loki gets an honest, unbiased look at himself without layers of expectations or self doubt. On Lamentis, he calls Sylvie "amazing" and praises her for all her accomplishments. That's a huge moment for him because it shows that despite also finding her irritating, he can look past those traits and see someone worth being a hero underneath. And through that realisation, he begins to understand that he can also grow to love himself. That kind of character development for Loki is incredible to watch, and it's the kind of character development I want to see from this series. Unfortunately, them possibly engaging in a romantic relationship will ruin it.

Whenever I'm feeling insecure about myself and my abilities, the solution has never been to look at who I am through a romantic lens. Self love is an entirely different type of love from romantic love, so if the series tries to push this relationship as a romance, it will fail to truly represent the arc that they are trying to show.

4. Nobody likes it

This one's a little on the nose, but it's true. Almost no one likes this ship, and more than that, most people actively hate it. Yes, there is a small minority that like Loki and Sylvie together, but there is an overwhelmingly larger group that is disgusted and angry by the fact that the show paired them up.

After Episode 4 aired, I ranted for about an hour and a half with a friend about how much we didn't want them together. My aunt whom I have never texted reached out to me to say that she hated their relationship. My homophobic neighbour came over and told me that she would prefer any other romance to this. Friends that I haven't talked to much since school let out for summer have all agreed that they collectively dislike Loki x Sylvie. This ship has brought people together purely because everyone hates it more than they hate each other.

There is no denying that the general feedback for Loki and Sylvie being a couple has been negative, even if you support them getting together for some reason. So if there are so many people out there who don't like it, I'm confused as to how it would be approved by a team of professionals.

5. The contradicting information we have gotten so far

Before the release of Episode Four, Kate Herron said that the relationship between Loki and Sylvie was “not necessarily romantic.” During the interview, she continued to refer to them as friends and people who found solace and trust in each other.

However, after Episode Four, the head writer, Michael Waldron, and other members of the crew spoke up about Sylvie and Loki. They said things like “it just felt right that that would be Loki’s first real love story” and “these are two beings of pure chaos that are the same person falling in love with one another.” These kinds of comments very heavily imply something romantic, directly contradicting what Kate Herron said. Even Tom Hiddleston, the actor for Loki, has assessed the situation, highlighting the differing viewpoints. He’s also said before that the end of Episode Four ultimately has Loki getting in his own way.

Now, this could all just be a misdirection on either side to build suspense for the show, but as of right now, it is entirely unclear who is telling the truth. Though it is more likely that the statements made by Michael Waldron are more accurate (as he is the writer), there is still a slight possibility that Loki x Sylvie won’t happen. I’ll link the articles I’ve found on this topic below so you can read them and decide for yourself.

Kate Herron Statement - https://www.cbr.com/loki-sylvie-relationship-not-romantic/

Michael Waldron Statement - https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/loki-sylvie-in-love

Tom Hiddleston Statement - https://thedirect.com/article/loki-tom-hiddleston-sylvie-romance

6. It is still salvageable

The odds are not in our favour, I’m afraid. It is highly probable that the show will put Loki and Sylvie in a romantic relationship with each other. Yet there is still a way to salvage it and turn their bond into something incredibly satisfying. Like I mentioned in Point Three, the relationship between Loki and Sylvie has the potential to be incredibly empowering and provide both characters some much-needed growth. And I believe that while unlikely, it can still do that.

The only mention of them being romantically interested in each other came from Mobius, who at the time was angry, betrayed, and doing anything he could to get Loki to talk. Then, at the end of the episode, right before Loki is about to confess something important to Sylvie, he is pruned. This results in no explicit confirmation from either Loki or Sylvie that they are in love with each other. The audience is left not knowing whether Mobius was correct in his speculations, and honestly, I don’t think Loki knows either.

Loki is no expert on love, as I explained earlier. It is entirely possible that he doesn’t grasp how he feels about Sylvie and defaults to romance because of what Mobius said. There is undoubtedly some sort of deep bond forming between them, and I would love to see that being explored in the next two episodes. I would love to watch Loki’s journey of realising that he doesn’t want anything romantic with Sylvie, and was simply confused by the new things he was feeling towards her. Loki even says “this is new for me” when talking to Sylvie at the end of Episode Four. Him momentarily believing that he wants to be a couple with her then shifting into them becoming friends who help each other grow is still a reality that could happen. And ultimately, I think that would benefit them both as characters as well as strengthen the overall message of the show.

In a show about self love, acceptance of yourself, and figuring out who you want to be, Loki very much needs people who support him. He has that in Mobius already, and now he’s beginning to have it in Sylvie as well. I just hope that it is done in a way that resonates with the audience and subverts expectations, which just cannot be done through some twisted romantic relationship. I’ve spoken to others watching the show and seen people talking online, and everyone seems to agree that Loki and Sylvie work much better as platonic soulmates or found family than a couple.

Of course, my hopes aren’t that high up. While I’d love for this to happen, I’ve been let down by Marvel before and wouldn’t be surprised if they went for the easy route of pairing characters up rather than dealing with the emotions correctly. Still, I have hope for this series. Everything else about it is wonderful and perfect in every way. It has the potential to become a masterpiece and easily the best thing that Marvel has ever done. However, this romance would ruin it for me and so many others. We already feel incredibly disappointed by Loki x Sylvie being suggested, so I can’t even begin to fathom how people will react if the show makes it canon. I’m begging Marvel to please do better than this. They have a wonderful story to tell and a wonderful team to do it, and I hope from the bottom of my heart that they don’t throw that away.

#marvel #loki #sylvie #mobius #loki x sylvie #loki x mobius #kate herron #michael waldron #disney #lgbtq #representation #tva #loki tv

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