#reylo discourse

[theweeklydiscourse]

Fake Enemies to Lovers Enjoyers: Enemies to lovers only works when [insert thinly veiled description of their fave ship’s dynamic]! Otherwise it’s abusive and toxic!!

These types want so badly for their preferred ships to be the exception to their sweeping generalizations and arbitrary limits on what can, and cannot be explored within the trope. They’re such hypocrites that want to have their cake and eat it too, they want the pleasure that comes from lording one’s perceived moral superiority over others while also enjoying the things that are so similar to what they condemn.

I beg of you…spare me the inane moralizing of your fictional preferences and please just sit down. Stop trying to move the goalposts to suit your specific preferences, stop ostentatiously moaning about what constitutes as what in regards to a broad trope like Enemies to Lovers. It’s a futile game and you look stupid trying to impose moral judgment on what is just a matter of taste

[maaruin]

Ask game #3- star wars

"screenshot or description of the worst take you've seen on tumblr"

Joke answer: It is likely that I have seen GIFs of the scene in which Luke tried to kill Ben Solo/Kylo Ren in his sleep on tumblr, which makes it a take on Luke's character that I have seen on tumblr in is probably worse than anything else I have seen on here. (I have seen even worse takes in other parts of the internet though...) Serious answer: I will note that often even the very extreme Star Wars takes have a logic to them I can respect. I can largely understand the Jedi haters and the Jedi apologists. I can sympathize with Reylos and anti-Reylos. Even though they all often make points I disagree with and sometimes get frustrated or angry with.

If would suspect I saw the worst take in discourse about the Sequels, and my memories about that are rather hazy. So I might be conflating different takes when I state what I consider the worst take to be: That killing Han specifically was Kylo Ren's unforgivable deed. Declaring anything in Star Wars as unforgivable/unredeemable is already something I think goes against the spirit of Star Wars, but I can see arguments in favor of that. But killing Han was far from the worst thing Kylo Ren did and the reason I suspect why someone would say that is that they have more attachment to Han than to the civilians Kylo Ren had executed at the beginning of the movie. (However, even with this take I am open to hearing the argument that patricide is always worse than killing strangers - or, hell, if you go full ethical subjectivism on me I might even see the point that the bad things characters do in stories are always crimes against the reader... wait, looks like I just came up with a take more weird than I thought possible. Maybe I should elaborate that take in a post so I can say that the worst Star Wars take I have seen on tumblr is on my own blog.)

[anima-nostrae]

Why shipping is so intensely hated in older fandoms?

Because of my person being entrenched in both the Rings of Power and Star Wars (sequel trilogy and the Acolyte specifically) fandoms and conversations online, I have noticed a curious thing happening. Now of course, I am aware all of it has been taking place for a long time before that, but recently a pattern has been developing.

Notably, the hate “shipping” or “shippers” had been receiving in online spaces.

Using both fandoms I already mentioned as a sort of trial group, let me illustrate what I mean by a “pattern” - but first, let’s try to define the whole shipping thing.

The basic thing to understand about it is that not everyone would explain it the same way. I would assume the most universal understanding of it would mean “shipping” to be simply wishing for two characters to become a couple at one point or another in the story. In that understanding, this might also manifest in some people’s minds as “I want these two to kiss” as well as “I want these two to have sex.” Which is true.

Which is also a very flattening description of the phenomena.

People are shipping characters that canonically hate each other, that don’t know each other, that come from two different media altogether. People are shipping characters that have minimal interactions, but these in themselves have that specific element about them, that little umph that normal people would call “chemistry”, so they want to see more from them. Most of the time, and I do mean most of them, not all, these opinions and jokes on the internet are just that.

There was a post about it, one which I cannot find anywhere but in the recesses of my mind, but it made a point to say shipping wasn’t this overly sexual thing where the fans partook in the practice simply to see their favourite characters engage physically before their eyes, but because there was something about the both of them, some strange, mirroring quality that made their interactions simply irresistible to witness, be them anything. A fight scene, a conversation, a mention.

Ones that come to mind are, more recently, Haladriel, *Rings of Power’*s Galadriel and Halbrand-version-of-Sauron, Oshamir, The Acolyte’s main characters, and Reylo.

Of course, Reylo.

We have noticed this, yes? How, most of the time, people that enjoy dynamics between various characters are called “insane”, “stupid”, “child-like”, and how they are blamed for writers partaking in generally controversial choices because “they are just caving-in” and “pandering to shippers”?

This is a feminism - adjacent piece, and quite a short read actually!

[keith-party]

forever obsessed with that performative little song and dance antis do where one of them interacts with content they genuinely enjoy from a "proship" account and then when their weirdly invasive followers alert them of the misstep they have to be all like OMG EW GROSS as if they actually care, lest they be suspected of the unforgivable crime of liking Problematic Art. It's like clockwork.

[hyperlexichypatia]

Me Giving a Pressed Conference: Shipping characters who do morally questionable, or even reprehensible things, in universe is a morally neutral act.

Reporter I Hate (Not Sexual Tension): Does that include Reylo?

Me: *Blood streaming from my nostrils and eyes* david, it includes everyone.

(format shamelessly stolen from this iconic post)

[morethanaloveinterest]

Based on some recent twitter discourse, I feel like I can conclude why the fandom phenomenon of scapegoating reylos exists. This might be conjecture on my part, but the curious tendency for the Star Wars fandom to highlight reylos as the source of racism and bigotry feels more like people giving in to their underlying misogyny than genuine analysis. It’s easier to target a smaller fandom that’s dominated by women than say, the Star Wars fandom at large which has many prominent male fans whose voices are taken into account by the culture at large.

Even supposedly progressive-minded people are not immune to indulging in this brand of misogyny. I believe that there are genuine criticisms that can be raised about the reylo fandom, but let’s be real, these people tend not to approach such criticisms in good faith. Racism and misogyny is so pervasive in the fandom that it’s infamous for it, and that has been the case even before TFA was breathed into existence. Yet reylos are the ones who are singled out as vulnerable enough to be attacked and mocked, but strong and influential enough to have a tangible impact on the course of the franchise.

At certain points, it feels like people want to avoid accountability. They need to believe that reylos were always as bad as people said, or else they might feel guilty for slandering and harassing people who genuinely didn’t deserve it.

Sorry for the rant! I love your videos and your Star Systems series. You add some truly valuable analysis and commentary to the fandom and I love to see it.

Thank you! I was following the discourse on there, mostly rolling my eyes. I agree - I think that "girls liking things" is always an easy scapegoat for fandom. Instead of confronting their own misogyny, they can target the people who are calling it out (by prioritizing Rey and what she wants instead of what she has to do as a vessel for the force or whatever). Reylos are the only ones pointing out that Rey doesn't tell Finn and certainly not Poe anything about herself, which shatters the idea of the trio that so many of the presumably left-leaning fans cling to. They want the progressive points of shipping Finn with Poe but then at best ignored Rose, if not actively hating her (in spite of her being one of the rare women of color in this entire franchise).

Considering what a quagmire the star wars fandom has famously been since the prequels came out (and perhaps before, but not online), it is baffling to me that people who suggested the obvious canonical interpretation of these characters would be so rejected and driven out of SW spaces. And especially when it came to Rose, who was viciously and violently hated by many SW youtubers. But, yeah, reylos are the problem.

And to be honest, I think it is both an indication of and a contributing factor to the general slide back into conservative politics. Making it okay to hate on reylo shippers made it okay to hate on anything "girls" like. And since most reylos liked TLJ, a movie that posits that anyone can be a hero, that means the reylos actually include a lot of queer and poc people, not just white girls (but let's be real, even if it was just white girls, that's not an excuse to bully them relentlessly).

It's laughable to see folks liking osh/amir or na/shuri or whatever new things and being shocked that they're treated just like those dirty reylos. Real leopards eating faces situation. As with any ship, you don't have to like and can dislike it - but if hating it becomes a facet of your personality, then, I'm sorry, but there's something wrong with you.

[reylopixie85]

As a veteran shipper, and someone who was knee deep in drama during the peak TWD shipping wars back in 2013-2018 (horrible horrible horrible), I can tell you wholeheartedly that..

IT IS NOT WORTH IT.

ENJOY what you enjoy.

Post. Like. Reblog what makes YOU happy.

Move along and revel in your ship and the happiness it brings to you.

Surround yourself with the POSITIVES in your fandom and shippers who you can share excitement with.

AVOID all the negatives.

If you see someone disagreeing with how or why or whatever about your ship, IGNORE IT.

Don't drop hateful comments. Don't feed it.

I know all fandoms have this toxicity in them but the best ones are when everyone can just go about their day and love what they love.

Getting mixed up in having to defend your ships to people who just won't hear it, is exhausting.

[justice-for-rose-tico]

Welcome to tumblr

[theweeklydiscourse]

Why is nuance dieing?

The younger generation seems to be so much more obsessed with moral puritanism in fiction and irdk why. Could it be because kids these days don't interact with real people and are just chronically online so they repeat what they see on the internet?

Actually saw someone saying people who like fictional bad boys are the reason why men get away with sa & rape irl and countries are criminalizing abortion...

It's just so depressing to see that. This line of thinking is scary actually.

I don't remember people going this mad over morals when shows and movies like Vampire Diaries and Twilight saga were huge. It's like people have regressed.

The media we consume is becoming more and more didactic as we enter an age where it seems like every piece of popular media is obsessed with delivering their messages and themes like an after school PSAs. Media is becoming increasingly more sanitized and “family friendly” to appeal to the broadest possible audience to create more and more profits for corporations. This obsession with sanitized fiction has become commonplace with many younger people who parrot what they see online and on the media they consume and proceed to deliver underdeveloped takes on subjects they don’t fully understand yet.

It becomes even more interesting when people point to fictional narratives as the cause for societal problems when there are already larger institutions that have historically been responsible for what they claim fiction causes. They displace the blame for societal ills like SA, abuse, patriarchal violence and misogynistic legislation onto fiction, fan fiction and media that explores taboo subject matter. While I don’t deny that fiction has power, 90% of the time these people have no idea of the ways literary works influence our culture and default to a 1:1 “monkey see, monkey do” explanation for why people must consume the “correct media”.

Another factor is the way that people have become accustomed to moralizing their content consumption. They have convinced themselves that they need a concrete and righteous justification for their likes and dislikes and this has ruined the way fandom interacts with literature, film and other art forms. With this in mind, they can no longer dislike or even hate something without creating some moral justifications for why “hating this thing is actually progressive and righteous!” and in the process, conflate consumerism with activism.

The comparison to Puritanism is quite fitting in this case. After all, the principles of that religion were based in purity, obedience and censorious beliefs for self-indulgences and we can draw comparisons with the way people online discuss certain subjects. There’s a phenomenon where people will say something along the lines of: “It’s alright to like (insert problematic character here)! But you need to acknowledge that they are a bad person.” To them, it seems like a gesture at fairness and magnanimity when in reality, it is an attempt at exerting unearned moral authority over the tastes of others. It is a demand that a person proves their moral innocence to them in a performative manner that validates their need to feel superior. But it’s all performative purity because even if a person did explain/justify their fictional tastes, these people wouldn’t care and would continue to demand purity from others.

People can’t even discuss certain characters anymore without running into people accusing them of being terrible people who would approve of real-life violence and abuse. And I can’t shake the feeling that it wasn’t always like this, when did it change?

[villainanders]

for a while there part of the issue was that at it's core the reylo/anti reylo conflict is straight up over who was reading the films correctly - was reylo intended as endgame? or was kylo ren an obvious irredeemable villain? fundamentally incompatible positions, and the outcome of the romance (if you believed it even existed) would more or less define the themes and meaning of the story as a whole, so very high stakes for all involved.

once the last part of the trilogy ended with a very weird non-answer, the wind went out of the sails of it all.

LMAO that makes total sense but was also such a losing battle for a series that had zero direction or overarching themes. God bless everyone hoping Star Wars would have been good though, I wish it had turned out differently for you 🫡

[herefortheships]

Antis will call you a creep for liking what they think is a “problematic ship”, and then proceed to stalk your comments on social media so they can argue with you everywhere. I don’t know about you, but that kind of stalking actually looks like creep behavior to me. Like why are you stalking my posts, comments and replies? Also stop consuming this type of content if it bothers you so much. Lol

And if you want to consume Beetlejuice content on YouTube and not see any Lydia x Beetlejuice shipping comments… use an extension to hide the comments, my friend, because the majority of the audience supports the ship after the sequel, so you’re gonna see a lot of people asking for them to get married and commenting about how much they love them, etc. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[controversial-blorbo-bracket]

Bakugo hot take: his character would have been better if he was a girl. This would also make him even more controversial. I will not elaborate.

Oh god this makes me wonder if. Okay so. I’m about to say something cursed. And I know I’m going to get hatemail about it (or at least very passionate explanations about why I’m wrong).

is bakudeku just yaoi reylo

[brucoenthusiast]

Yeah not sorry but you're a fucking loser if you get mad at people for drawing parallels to reylo and oshmir.

There's so many other parallels in this story as well (the Sol/Osha and Anakin/Ahsoka one being one of my favorites.) But y'all only get mad at reylos because what? You deluded yourself into thinking the ship is some sort of ultimate evil?? Grow the fuck up, those movies started coming out when I was still a child and some of y'all were grown adults this whole time. Y'all sound fucking ridiculous at this point.

I love both of these ships and I just want to express how much I love the mythic storytelling going on and the people who can see what this story is trying to say.

[lollytea]

Your following list on tumblr being private is such a blessing honestly. It's a thing that is very much analyzed on twitter as a reflection of you and your morals. Meanwhile, sometimes I follow absolute lunatics, just to spice up the ol' dashboard.

[lonelyroommp3]

Ya know, I don’t even when or why I started following you, but I swear you didn’t used to be lonelyroommp3. But I also can’t think of what your old username used to be. Either way, I’m glad I’ve kept following you. You’re so #relatable.

i was once coniello, and before that i was euphrasiefauchelevent, and i must also add before i'm aggressively reminded by a couple of very special people #onhere that for 24 hallowed hours some time in approximately 2017 i was also genjipussyindulgence