#representation is just like the bare minimum

[genericpuff]

Hope you don't mind my asking but do you mind elaborating on why you don't like Mongie too much? I know all about why everyone dislikes Let's Play itself. There are various videos and post upon post online tearing it to shreds with criticism but I've not heard much about the creator herself like I do Rachel Smythe. Does she also run into the same issues that Rachel does or is her behavior different but equally questionable/annoying?

It's kinda equally questionable, kinda different. They both have the same issues of like, fetishizing youthfulness and creating unhealthy power dynamics. They also haven't done a great job at depicting POC in their comics, you can tell they're written by white women who don't understand other cultures but are trying to make their series more "progressive" by including stand-ins for representation.

That said, considering Let's Play is set in a real world setting, the POC characters (and the casually racist issues in their writing) are a lot more obvious than in LO (where you have to know the context that the neon-colored nymphs are based on POC to really realize that they're lower class POC people who are getting the shit end of the stick from the rich upper class main protagonists).

And I don't even mean in the usual "there aren't any POC in this comic" or "the POC in this comic are stereotypical/poorly written", I mean in the sort of white-victim-complex "I added in other ethnicities and people got mad at me anyways so what more do you want!" kind of way (paired with the "they're poorly written and stereotypical" aspect).

Dean is a good example of the stereotypical designing and writing, IIRC he's a Hispanic man but he's written like some Spanish soap opera character who flirts with every woman he sees and always has rose petals falling around him.

Even in that sentence he says "part Asian" which is weird because he's looking for Marshall who's supposed to be his best friend and it's been established in the comic that Marshall is half-Japanese, but that brings us to the other instance of mongie being casually (if not directly) racist and even more so than with Dean...

Apparently mongie thought it was a good move to say that it was "more inclusive" to make Vikki only vaguely Asian. Which is just... so not true LOL Asia is an entire continent made up of MANY different cultures and ethnicities and so generalizing all of them to just "Asian" is not a great take from someone who's trying to seem "more inclusive".

But of course, when her community called her out on this and asked her to elaborate, she and her mod team basically dug their heels in and made up excuses that made mongie out to be a victim instead of just acknowledging she made an error that didn't connect well with members of her audience.

And theeen in comes mongie ready to torch the place. Note that up until this point, it's basically been her mod team speaking up on her behalf and giving her benefit of the doubt, so when mongie DID get her chance to speak, she jumped right to:

"FINE, SHE'S HALF CHINESE HALF KOREAN THEN, STFU AND STOP ANALYZING ME WHEN I INCLUDE CHARACTERS FROM RACES THAT DON'T ALIGN WITH MY OWN !!!" (╯‵□′)╯︵┻━┻ is very much the vibe people got from this, understandably so. It's also odd (and extremely privileged) for her to say that she'd "rather focus on a character's personality and not their race" because it's very "I don't see color" which has been proven to be counterintuitive to understanding and celebrating different races.

And then we get a lot of self-victimizing "well I can't win no matter what so you people are ungrateful and actually it's MY feelings that are hurt" excuses:

Again it's weird because she had NO problem specifying that Marshall was half-Japanese and she didn't make him into any sort of weird stereotype like she did with Vikki. So I don't know why she's having such a hard time grasping that being vaguely Asian for Vikki isn't inclusive.

Although, let's be real here, the only reason Marshall is half-Japanese at all is because he's a self-insert of Markiplier, a half-Korean Youtuber who mongie apparently worked for on payroll as a graphic designer prior to Let's Play. Which is just a whole layer of ick that I think surpasses even Rachel Smythe and Mads Mikkelson. Like the Rachel and Mads thing is definitely creepy and weird because she's literally drawn herself - an adult woman nearing her 40's - being swept off her feet by a smoochy-faced Mads. But at least she didn't work for the guy or ever interact with him directly like mongie did with Markiplier. That's a whole separate level of "ew".

That said, mongie continues:

Which is just such a half-assed non-apology. Not "I'm sorry for misrepresenting a culture" or "I'm sorry I didn't do proper research", but "I'm sorry people think I'm being insensitive or that they need specific representation in my work that I'm claiming to be representation to be good". Completely shifting the blame from herself onto her audience for not being happy with the bare minimum that she gave them.

There's more though. Probably one of the worst parts and it's not even her, but one of her mods:

The fact that this is one of mongie's mods telling mongie's audience that her feelings - as a white woman who's just legitimately patronized her audience - are more valid than the people whose feelings were hurt by mongie being so insensitive... it's a real gross move and I can't believe they even pulled that.

Oh, and of course, as people like this tend to do, she goes on about "cancel culture" and how "terrifying" it is to her and then comes up with some imaginary scenario where a kid pays a hitman to kill her ?? as a defense for herself that really just further victimizes herself over her own misled actions ??

And this is something mongie does a lot, at least in this instance - she comes up with justifications for her decisions based on completely imaginary scenarios that she came up with and assumed, rather than just, idk, doing her research and being open to learning new things about cultures she's clearly not educated on. Shit like "well if I do xyz you'll be mad at me anyways so fuck you!"

When in reality? No one would have been mad at her if she didn't have any non-white characters in her comic. Would readers be disappointed? Probably. But - and I can't speak for everybody out there obviously so this is just my opinion - I know I'd much rather representation from someone who wanted to represent my respective groups and identities and put love and effort into it, than get it from someone who was just doing it because they made up a scenario in their head that they would be cancelled for not doing it. No one really has any tangible ground to stand on if they get mad at you for writing a cast of all-white characters you wanted to write, there are plenty of webtoons like that on the platform. We do need more stories that uplift and represent POC voices, but it shouldn't be from white victim complex people who only do it to virtue signal and ensure they don't get "cancelled". You know what WILL get you cancelled? Attempting to write other ethnicities and racial groups purely based on stereotypes for the sake of "representation" and then getting mad when people ask you to be a little more specific than "Asian".

Oh yeah, and then have your mods censor/delete any mentioning of educational resources regarding Asian cultures, and then essentially dox one of your community members by revealing their Twitter to the entire Discord group to boot!

oh boy mongie, if you think THAT'S drama, wait until you see the shit I do here LMAO

[sarafangirlart]

Would it be wrong of me to point out that most of the praise for Eurydice x Caeneus is about how it’s “good representation” and how they are “cute” together but almost nothing about like… anything else? Not the chemistry, build up or dynamic? Hmm

[seaslimes]

Every time I see those posts about the AO3 F/F to M/M ratios, all I can think is:

Okay, excellent point. But what if you just wrote it?

Like. Yeah, man, I'm sure it's discouraging to see raw numbers talking about how your ship doesn't get the rep it needs. But when you get down to numbers... sometimes the difference within fandoms is less than 500 more M/M works than F/F works. That's actionable. You can fill that gap with a fraction of the people liking / reblogging posts about F/F erasure.

Sometimes the gap is bigger. It's like, 1000 more works are tagged M/M. 2000, or more. Yeah, that's a big gap, but you could make it one less. If every person liking or reblogging a post about the disparity of ship fics on AO3, that number would shrink drastically, or outright disappear.

IDK. I write F/F. I write M/M too, as well as M/F. But I write F/F, and when I see that sorta post. It doesn't feel like a call to action. It feels like somehow, in some way, I'm not doing enough when I post up fanfiction for free about stuff I like.

It makes me feel like I should stop sharing my F/F work, that it doesn't matter, that people don't recognize the effort or love or time that goes into it. Even beyond that, I feel discouraged about the work I have put out, because thousands of words written all about an F/F pairing are only seen in that raw stat format.

"There's X M/M fics and Y F/F fics." Yes, I know, and that has to suck. But look at how many people wrote F/F fics! Have you commented on each of those F/F fics? Have you given kudos? Did you feel inspired to write or draw because of those F/F fics? That's what fandom is for. That's why we create. If that's not inspiring you to "close the gap" on those stats, I don't know what to say.

[everythingsinred]

controversial opinion of the year is that i dont think barbie was that great bc its message was all over the place and also they didnt realize they had made kens the women in their story so it just seemed bizarrely misogynistic to me

[deoidesign]

I'm kind of over "confirmed in interviews" being seen as acceptable genuine representation. I'm sick of seeing my narratives contorted beyond recognition so that others can find me palatable. I'm sick of subtext, I'm sick of blending in. LOOK AT ME. I want to be fucking seen.

When can we have better? I'm so tired of making my own stories. I'm so lonely. The only time I'm seen is by looking in a mirror.

[ryuuseini]

God I wanna... Say Something regarding fatphobia in media and the terms ppl use in describing characters who gain weight over time ("letting go" like bro shut the fuck up???) and how like, there's also nuance to the discussion (like, a character who starts out on the heavier side choosing to lose weight shouldn't be demonized either - as PLENTY of people want to lose weight for various reasons, and while you can point to a decent amount of it stemming from our fatphobic society, a lot of it is also just personal desire at the end of the day - but I also understand that if your ONLY fat character loses weight at the end and the other characters don't change either, then that's not good) but idk, I'm a little too tired to properly articulate what's going on in my mind? But I just... wish this was more of a discussion

[saucetail-hasanewblog]

oh fuck off honestly.

[jelly-o630]

OMG EXACTLY

like I love the owl house but honestly I get so salty on rewatches cause it feel like this

TOH: Hi this is a show about people ostracized from society and how we need to understand the people around us and accept them for who they are

Me: AMAZING, are you gonna explore how being a first generation child of immigrants can be a very isolating for a child as they are separated from the culture of their parents and how failing to assimilate properly can lead to that social ostracization (especially since your MAIN CHARACTER is Latina)

TOH: what no, Luz feels social ostracized ONLY because she’s a fangirl and neurodivergent 😉

Me: okey well um will you at least have decent Latina representation

TOH: you bet, Luz speaks Spanish sometimes and in ONE episode her MOM (not luz interacting or showing her culture her MOTHER having to do this FOR HER) sends her a text showing her eating a sandwich from DR and we have a flag in ONE BACKGROUND

Me: but what about in season 2 when Luz tries so hard to go home she doesn’t like try to recreate some of her home or culture or tell other people what EXACTLY she misses about it

TOH: Nah

Me: I’m just gonna rewatch amphibia

me: you know i feel salty about how toh handled its characters of colour. let me go to the toh critical tags maybe i'll find people who share my sentiments.

the toh critical tags: "here's why killing off the genocidal white puritan was bad, actually. also huntlow bad."

every other fucking post is about how killing belos was bad or about how huntlow is bad. not a single post about how willow and gus got the short end of the stick in terms of screentime, ESPCIALLY gus whose episode was overshadowed by lumity, not a single post about how raine was reduced to eda's love interest and most of their screentime was them being brainwashed. not a single post about the copious amounts of white favourtism in the fandom to the point that they talk more about amity than luz, who they reduce to being amity's gf. no, lets advocate for the white colonizer!

[palmettoshenanigans]

Imma be honest, when I first got introduced to AFTG, it was pointed out at least a few times that part of the reason it was "badly written" was because it was just,,, trauma porn for no reason. That all the characters had the most dramatic Tragic Backstories for like,,, shock factor and melodrama (they were particularly referencing Andrew's and Neil's pasts in this case) but like,,,

Listen. Listen. Two things:

1. Some of yall maybe kinda missed the point here, but I think "surviving unspeakable trauma" is part of the theme here mayhaps idk just throwing that out there see if it sticks or whatever

and

2. Not to be dramatic but,,, "son of a mafia affiliated serial killer on the run almost sold into a mafia affiliated sports cult" aside, their traumas are not as Out There as you'd assume. No, seriously. Maybe I'm biased because my history is bare minimum 60% similar to theirs but like,,, When You Know You Fucking Know. Life is literally like that for an unfortunate number of people.

So maybe that's another reason why I can't take "badly written AFTG" seriously because where other people see "unnecessary trauma porn" I see "accurate representation of what childhoods be like sometimes" but we just involved sports mafia cult for some extra ✨Sugar n Spice✨.

[villaincock]

hello. jew here

dont write jewish characters if u know next to nothing about us or our culture/religion pls. if u want to write a jewish character (or any character outside the scope of your personal knowledge, honestly), you MUST take the time to read about us and our beliefs, customs, etc. im not saying u have to be an expert on the torah or the tanakh or the talmud, but u need to do at least the bare minimum. and google isnt always reliable, if u have questions u should carefully analyze which websites u use. or have a jew beta your fic/writing!

im just tired of seeing “this character is jewish :) u can tell because they celebrate hanukkah” and that is it for the jewish characterization. like i get that u ppl know nothing abt judaism except for hanukkah but u HAVE to do better than that. because ur essentially tokenizing the character as ur Jewish Representation and it shows.

again, im not saying ‘dont write that hanukkah scene’, or ‘dont try writing jews at all’.

what i AM saying is that u need to actually do ur part in understanding judaism a little bit more before u decide to write a jewish character. if ur not willing to do the research or ask the questions, dont bother writing us into ur stories.

[smileyedwin]

Dead boy detectives is one of the few shows that didn't sexualize teenage characters. And that's just one of the many great qualities of the show. It could be deemed as the bare minimum but it's very rare.

They created a space for queer people all around the world and handled it gracefully and respectfully. They didn't try to fit into a fixed structure, it was uniquely and brilliantly done! It's truly like nothing I have ever seen before.

A few folks say that it wasn't “queer” enough and to them I ask DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE SHOW? We not only got to see a character come to the realization that he's gay but we also got an incredible scene where he comes out to his best friend who unflinchingly accepts him. We have Jenny who's a lesbian who went out on a date with a woman who she kissed by the way (even though it didn't end the way we hoped.) And let's not forget the moments between Monty and Edwin. We have 5 canon characters that are part of the lgbtqia+ with their own unique stories that reflect real life allowing all the many different people in the world to relate and have a personal connection with those individual characters.

Being queer is not what you show but what you feel. And I say this, not for the shows that are too scared to touch on queer emotions and feelings— (dead boy detectives is certainly NOT one of those shows) but for the people who haven't been able to be open about their feelings when it comes to their sexuality and feel invalidated because they can't express or share them.

And if one of the reasons you think it isn't queer enough is because it doesn't have sexual themes or that the characters don't get together within the first few episodes...you might wanna reconceptualize what your idea of queer representation is.

[aetherialavenger]

Another thought about mouthwashing

The premise of a game where you are a space ship captain traversing the stars with your crew only to become stranded sounds like such an interesting and exciting tale.

The game, however, hammers home the reality of this once fanciful idea by showing that youre a glorified space trucker, your crew is here to do the bare minimum (make sure no one dies and the ship still functions).

Suddenly, the glittering prospect of exploring the stars is cast in the muck and grime of corporate dawdling. You aren't here to have fun. You dont get to see the world outside. This is a job. You signed away years of your life in a metal box where you get to experience none of the fantasy of navigating space.

Even the captains of this ship aren't allowed to see the stars. The most they do is make sure the ship doesn't crash because autopilot just mustn't be reliable enough. No wonder curly felt his entire life might go to waste. What experiences did he have to show for it? Staring at a screen with rudimentary representations of the world outside? He couldn't possibly even describe an asteroid he saw once.

Think about that.

A spacefarer with years of experience under his belt who couldn't describe the stars, the nebulas, the planets, or asteroids to anyone excited enough to ask.

All you can speak about are the miles of crates, bags of powders that you ate, and the thousands of company posters that blur together into one degrading message of "you be a good worker, now!"

I'd want out, too.

[80rosequartz08]

Vivziepop Can't Write WLW Characters

Let's start with her biggest example of a WLW ship:

Charlie and "V*ggie"

Charlie and "V*ggie" (who I will be calling Valkyrie) are Viv's main example to run to when people accuse her of only representing plain, boring, white twinks. But I have several issues with this. To start, they hardly act like a couple, and when they do, it's hardly the bare minimum. The most they do that can be considered "romantic" is talk sweet with each other and kiss on screen like 2 times.

Charlie is just a blank slate who only has the traits of "nice and naive" going for her. Meanwhile, Valkyrie is just a man-hating, aggressive, lesbiphobic stereotype with a disgusting and insensitive name. Her entire character is just "Charlie's girlfriend/babysitter" who gets forgiven in basically 10 seconds by Charlie despite hiding that she lied (supposedly for years) about the fact that she used to mindlessly aid in the genocide of Charlie's people for God knows how long.

And that's not even getting into the issue with her just being a walking "spicy" Latina stereotype.

Millie/Cherri Bomb

Did you know that either of these characters are WLW? No. Of course you didn't. And how could you?

Millie is hardly a character in her own right, just being boiled down to "Moxie's wife", and Cherri just being boiled down to "Angel's friend/Sir Pentious's love interest". Neither of them are even remotely implied to have ANY attraction to female/fem-presenting characters. And while I know that being in a opposite-sex relationship doesn't invalidate anyone's identity, you also kind of have to show that these characters do in fact also show SOME attraction to women/fem people. Which Vivziepop is frankly unprepared/uninterested in doing.

Mayberry and Martha (???)

What do I even say about this???

It's not even a proper case of representation??? It's played off like a "haha s3x!" joke, except this time it's EXTRA funny because "haha lesbians"? What the hell, Vivzie.

[wizardsix]

bioware either writes a trans man and allows the player to invade his privacy out of nowhere or writes a buff nonbinary character and makes it their whole personality. just stop. I'm fed up with it and I'd rather have a game w no trans rep than butchered trans rep and forced allyship.

there's absolutely no need to use our modern terms in a fantasy setting. its very weird and jarring and shows how little bioware cares. it's not difficult to make up their own words or just talk about it in a more natural way. you'd think for a fantasy world that has made up languages they could easily make up a word to describe genders and sexualities, so what's the issue? why don't we get the same care everything else (supposedly) does? like how come no one uses the words gay or lesbian or even bisexual but it's easily implied through dorian saying "I prefer the company of men" and sera's "we have too much in common bc we both like women"???? how come they can say that in a way that doesn't break immersion but taash has to go crazy about gender and write "trans/non-binary/genderfluid/agender all so so super valid I am affirmed" on the walls??

I get what they were trying to do with taash's story but it's not executed well at all especially with that fucking misgender scene. bioware I can assure you most people won't dissolve when they're misgendered. saying sorry or just correcting yourself and moving on is ok. its preferable actually. we don't need a character to stop the conversation to give a speech about how misgendering is bad and apologizing is also bad and act all white knight for us. it's embarrassing. like if I didn't know any better id say they were making fun of us. that's how fucking bad this writing is.

I'm sorry to the people who just accept the bare minimum, but it IS cringe and annoying to have our existence watered down to "trans" and "valid". why can't we just fucking exist without being turned into freakshows to gawk at. trans people deserve better representation than this caricature. we deserve basic fucking respect. our existence is much more complicated than cis people could ever understand and I'm sick of people pretending to care.

[disco-tea]

Not but I don’t think I’ll ever be over the way they wrote Mother Gothel’s manipulation . The way it’s woven into everything she does. The way you can tell by watching her with Repunzel that this is years and years and layers and layers of manipulation. This is a whole little world Gothel had built around her and Repunzel with nobody to stop her. The way it’s apparent from the first scene. The way she insults repunzel and puts her down and tries to work on her self esteem but hides its behind “oh I’m just teasing. Don’t be so sensitive.” The way Mother Knows Best is a masterclass in narcissistic manipulation. The way she gaslights Repunzel by calling the floating lights “stars” even though Repunzel is smart enough to figure out that’s not what they are. The way Gothel has to have all the power, even in small ways like her having a door and Repunzel having a curtain. The way even their little game of “I love you” is a narcissistic play for power because Gothel’s line is always “I love you most” because she’s SUCH a good mother, you see. She’s sacrificed SO MUCH. She’s basically a martyr. She takes SUCH good care of Repunzel. Nobody could EVER love as much as her.

The way Gothel and Repunzel have an ‘argument’ which is actually just Repunzel having a reasonable request and Gothel giving a whole big manipulative spiel followed by a harsh rebuff. Then she immediately leaves, which is also another play for power. She controls when she and Repunzel can have a conversation and they’re not having it right now. She comes back a tries to pretend it never happened, except it did and they both know it, so Gothel is like “oh I’m making your favorite soup! Isn’t it wonderful? Doesn’t it make up for the fact I’ve ruined your whole life and I told you you can NEVER EVER have a life outside the toxic bubble I’ve created for us? Why would you ever want to leave??” Which is exactly how abusive relationships work, the way they offer the bare minimum and act like its might as well be a gift from God. And the worst part is, many people who are abused take it and DO feel like it really is a special thing because they’re not used to getting even the bare minimum. Another really good detail too is the after Gothel’s blow up (“now I’M the bad guy. Oh poor me”) Repunzel DOES want to drop the subject so she tells Gothel she just wants paint instead and calls the floating lights “stars,” thus making a subtle concession and making Gothel feel like she’s won, which I’m sure exactly how all their ‘aruguments’ in the past have ended: with Repunzel having yield and Gothel making sure she’s knows she’s the one in control. Overall it’s just so well written and one of the best representations of real manipulations that I’ve seen

[thebirthofvenusfly]

trying not to jinx it but im actually scarily impressed with how most of the ISAT fandom at large respects the characters as they are.

mirabelle is canonically aro/ace and repulsed to the idea of romantic or sexual relationships and i have not seen her shipped with anyone once. odile's story centers on complications with family, especially maternity and maternal concepts, and i've seen no one forcibly deem her, "The Mom Friend." everyone i've seen has been very respectful of bon, isa, loop, and siffrin's preferred pronouns too. like i know this is the bare minimum but ive been on the internet since i was like 8 and im pretty used to even canon stuff becoming points of contest within a fandom because people just dont respect the boundaries and representation put in place but the isat fandom is simply built different