#really thoughtful writing about fandom and queer fans and looking for good things

[el-huddpudd]

Yes, And

"Deborah's not gonna to be able to sign anything. She's not coming at all."

"Really? She never misses Pride." [sighs] "Well, can't blame her. She's had a hell of a year. Cheers to that."

"You can kind of blame her."

"You OK? I mean, I don't know you. This could be your personality."

"I'm just pissed off. She owes us so much, and she's letting everyone down, again."

"Well, this is what happens. You can't stop being a fan now that she's got more of them. We loved her before anybody else did, and she loved us before anybody else did. That's not nothing. We -- we just have to share her now."

"But doesn't that make you mad?"

"No. It just means we were right all along. But nobody's ever gonna know Deborah like we do. She's a survivor, like us."

"Well, she's always looking out for herself, so yeah."

"You know, first time I saw her, she was performing at a bowling alley. It was right after the divorce, but she was so funny about it. And I -- I was howling. She was at rock bottom, but somehow, it felt like she was top of the world. She made me feel like I could be on top, like -- like I could laugh at all the... sad things that were happening to me too."

"Yeah, when I first saw her, my dad had just died."

"I'm sorry."

"Well, I'm glad you don't feel left behind."

"Sometimes, left behind is good. Cher wrote the "Believe" album at 55. Did she show up at Pride that year? [scoffs] No. But we got the "Believe" album. Sometimes good things come from letting go. [gasps] And letting go is actually the theme of the song "Strong Enough from the "Believe" album. [chuckling] Snap out of it!"

[laughing]

[cybernaght]

The fandom echo chamber: fanon, microanalysis and conspiracy brain 

As someone who has been in fandom spaces, on and off, for 20 years, I find some fascinating trends popping up in the last decade that I thought to be fandom-specific but clearly aren’t. So, I would like to do a little examination of where those things come from, how they are engaged with, and what it says about the way we consume media. This is a think piece, of sorts, with my brain being the main source. As such, we will spend some time down the memory lane of a fandom-focused millennial.

This is largely brought about by Good Omens. But it’s also not really about Good Omens at all.

Part one. Fanon.

The way we see characters in any story is always skewed by our very selves. This is a neutral statement, and it does not have a value judgement. It’s simply unavoidable. We recognise aspects of them, love aspects of them, and choose aspects of them to highlight based entirely on our own vision of the universe. 

Recognition comes into this. There is a reason so many protagonists of romance novels have a “blank slate” problem. Even when they do not, we love characters who are like us or versions of us that we would like to be. And when we say “we”, I also mean, “me”. 

(I remember very clearly this realisation hit me after a whole season of Doctor Who with writing which I hated utterly when I questioned why I still clung so incredibly hard to Clara Oswald as my favourite companion. Then I looked at myself in the mirror. Oh. Well. That would do it, wouldn’t it?)

Then, there is projection, and, again, this is a neutral statement. Projection exists, and it is completely normal and, dare I say it, valid way of engaging with — well, anything. Is the character queer? Trans? Neurodivergent? Are they in love? Do they like chocolate? Are they a cat person? Well, yes, if this is what the text says, but if the text does not say anything… You tell me. Please, do tell me. Because, in that moment of projection, they are yours. 

And then, there is fandom osmosis, and that is the most fascinating one of them all, the one that is not very easy to note while you are inside the echo chamber. It’s the way we collectively, consciously or not, make decisions on who or what the characters are, what their relationships are, and what happens to them.  

(Back when I was writing egregiously long Guardian recaps on this blog I actually asked if Shen Wei’s power being learning actually was stated anywhere in the canon of the show. Because I had no idea. I have read and reread dozen of fanfics where that is the case, and at some point through enough repetition, it became reality.)

We are all kind of making our own reality here, aren’t we? 

Back when things were happening in a much less centralised manner - in closed livejournal groups, and forums of all shapes and sizes - I don’t remember there being quite as much universally agreed upon fanon. Frankly, I don’t remember much of universally agreed upon anything. But now, everything is in one place: we have this, and we have AO3, and it’s wonderful, it really is so much easier to navigate, but it’s also one gigantic reality-shifting echo chamber, with blogs, reblogs, trends, and rituals. 

Accessibility plays its part, too. If you were, say, in Life on Mars (UK) fandom between seasons, and you wanted to post your speculation fic, you had to have had an account, and then find and gain access to one of the bigger groups (lifein1973 was my poison, but ymmv), and then, if you feel brave you may post it, but also, you may want to do so from your alt account if you wanted to keep yours separate, and then you would have to go through the whole process again. And I’m not saying that fan creations then were somehow inherently better for it than fan creations now (although Life on Mars Hiatus Era is perhaps a bad example - because some of the Speculation Fic there was breathtaking), but there is something to say about the ease of access that made the fandoms go through a big bang of sorts.

(I mean, come on, I can just come here and post this - and I am certain people will read it, and this blog is a pandemic cope baby about Chinese television for goodness sake.)

The canon transformations that happen in the fandom echo chamber truly are fascinating to witness as someone who is more or less a fandom butterfly. I get into something, float around for a bit, then get into something else and move on. I might come back eventually when the need arises, but I don’t sustain a hiatus mind-state. This means that when I float away and return, I find some very intriguing stuff.

Let’s actually look at Good Omens here. Season two aired, and I found it spectacular in its cosy and anguished way; deliberately and intelligently fanfic-y in its plot building; simple but subversive, and so very tender. (I will have to circle back to this eventually, because, truly, I love how deliberately it takes the tropes and shatters them - it’s glorious). And, to me - a person who read the book, watched the first season, hung around AO3 for a few weeks and moved on - absolutely on-point in terms of characterisation. 

So imagine my surprise when the fandom disagreed so vehemently that there are actual multi-tiered theories on how characters were not in possession of their senses. Nothing there, in my mind, ever contradicted any of the stated text, as it stood. This remained a strange little mystery until I did what I always do when I flutter close to an ongoing fandom.

I loaded AO3 and sorted the existing fic by popularity. And there it was, all there: the actual earth-shattering mutual devotion of the angel and the demon; willingness to Fall; openness and long heart-aching confession speeches. There was all of the fanon surrounding Aziraphale and Crowley, which, to me, read as out of character, and to one for whom they became the reality over the last four years, read as truth. 

Again, only neutral statements here. This is not a bad thing, and neither this is a good thing, this is just something that happens, after a while, especially when there are years for the fandom-born ideas to bounce around and stew. I can’t help but think that so much of what we see as real in spaces such as this one is a chimaera of the actual source and all the collective fan additions which had time and space to grow, change, develop, and inspire, reverberating over and over again, until the echoes fill the entirety of the space. 

Eventually, this chimaera becomes a reality. 

Part two. Microanalysis 

Here are my two suppositions on the matter:

1. Some writers really love breadcrumb storytelling. 

Russel T Davies, for instance, on his run of Doctor Who (and, if you are reading it much later - I do mean the original one), loved that technique for his seasonal arcs. What is a Bad Wolf? Who is Harold Saxon? Well, you can watch very very carefully, make a theory, and see it proven right or wrong by the end of the season. 

Naturally, mystery box writers are all about breadcrumb storytelling: your Losts and your Westworlds are all about giving you snippets to get your brain firing, almost challenging you to figure things out just ahead of the reveal. 

2. We, as humans, love breadcrumbs.

And why wouldn’t we? Breadcrumbs are delicious. They are, however, a seasoning, or a coating. They are not the meal. 

Too much metaphor?

Let’s unpack it and start from the beginning.

Pattern recognition colours every aspect of our lives, and it colours the way we view art to a great extent. I think we truly underestimate how much it’s influenced by our lived experiences.

If you are, broadly speaking, living somewhere in Western/North-Western Europe in the 14th century, and you see a painting in which there is a very very large figure surrounded by some smaller figures and holding really tiny figures, you may know absolutely nothing about who those figures are, but you know that the big figure is the Important One, and the small ones are Less Important Ones, and the tiny ones are In Their Care. You know where your reverence would lie, looking at this picture. And, I imagine, as someone living in the 14th century, you may be inspired to a sense of awe looking at this composition, because in the world you live in, this is how art works. 

If you, on the other hand, watch a piece of recorded media and see the eyes of two characters meet as the violins swell, you know what you are being told at that moment. You don’t have to have a film degree to feel a sort of way when you see a green-tinged pallet used, when cross-cuts use juxtaposing images, or notice where your focus is pulled in any given shot. This stuff - this recognition of patterns - has been trained into us by the simple fact that we live in this time, on this planet, and we have been doing so long enough to have engaged recorded media for a period of time. 

As humans, we notice things. Our brains flare up when they see something they recognise, and then we seek to find other similar details and form a bigger picture. This often happens unconsciously, but sometimes it does not. Sometimes we do it on purpose: finding breadcrumbs in stories is a little bit like solving a mystery. It allows us to stretch that brain muscle that puts two and two together. It makes us feel clever. 

So yes, we love breadcrumbs, and, frankly, quite a lot of storytelling takes advantage of this. It’s very useful for foreshadowing, creating thematic coherence, or introducing narrative parallels and complexity. It’s useful for nudging the viewer into one or the other emotional direction, or to cue them into what will happen in the next moment, or what exactly is the one important detail they should pay attention to.

Because this is something media does intentionally, and something we pick up both consciously and not, it is very hard to know when to stop. We don't really ever know when all of the breadcrumbs have been collected. It becomes very easy to get carried away. There is a very specific kind of pleasure in digging into content frame by frame, soundbite by soundbite, chasing that pleasure of finding. 

But it is almost never breadcrumbs all the way down. They are techniques to help us focus on the main event: the story. I truly believe those who make media want it to reach the widest possible audience, and that includes all of us who like to watch every single thing ever created with our Media Analysis Goggles on and those who are just here to enjoy the twists and turns of the story at the pace offered to them. And I think, sometimes in our chase to collect and understand every little clue we forget that media is not made to just cater for us.

One can call it missing a forest for the trees. But I would hate to mix my metaphors, so let’s call it missing a schnitzel for the breadcrumbs. 

Part three. The Conspiracy Brain. 

If you are there with me, in the midst of the excited frenzy, chasing after all those delicious breadcrumbs, then patterns can grow, merge together, and become all-encompassing theories. Let’s call them conspiracy theories, even though this is not what they truly are.

So, why do we believe in conspiracy theories?

One, Because We Have Been Lied To. 

All conspiracies start with distrust.

If you are in fandom spaces - especially if you are in fandom spaces which revolve around a queer fictional couple - especially-especially if you have been in such spaces for a period of time, you have most certainly been lied to at one point or another. 

We don’t even have to talk about Sherlock - and let’s not do that - but do you remember Merlin? Because I remember Merlin. Specifically, I remember the publicity surrounding the first season, with its weaponised usage of “bromance” and assertions that this whole thing is a love story of sorts, and then the daunting realisation that this was all a stunt, deliberately orchestrated to gather viewership. 

And, because we were lied to in such a deliberate manner for such an extensive period of time, I genuinely believe that it forever altered our pattern recognition habits, because what was this if not encouragement to read into things? Now we are trained to read between the lines or see little cries for help where they might not be. Because we were told, over and over again, that we should.

(Yes, I think we are all existing in these spaces coloured by the trauma of queer-bating. I am, however, looking forward to a world where I can unlearn all of that.)

Two, Cognitive Dissonance.

The chain reaction works a bit like this: the world is wrong - it can’t possibly be wrong by coincidence - this must be on purpose - someone is responsible for it.

Being Lied To is a preamble, but cognitive dissonance is where it all originates. In so many cross-fandom theories I have noticed a four-step process:

A) this is not good

B) this author could not have made a mistake 

C) this must be done on purpose

D) here is why 

(Funny thing is, I have been on the receiving end of the small conspiracy spiral, and it is a very interesting experience. Not relevant to this conversation is the fact that a lot of my job revolves around storytelling. What is relevant is that my hobbies also revolve around storytelling. And one of them is DnD. Now, imagine my genuine shock when one of the players I am currently writing a campaign for noticed a small detail that did not make a logical sense within the complexity of the world, and latched on to it as something clearly indicating some kind of a secret subplot. Their thinking process also went a bit like this: this detail is not a good piece of writing — this DM knows how to tell stories well — this is obviously there on purpose. It was not there on purpose. I created a clumsy shorthand. I erred, in that pesky manner humans tend to. And, seeing this entire thought process recited to me directly in the moment, I felt somewhere between flattered and mortified.)

This whole line of thinking, I think, exists on a knife’s edge between veneration and brutal criticism, relentlessly dissecting everything “wrong”, with a reverent “but this is deliberate” attached to it like a vice, because it is preferable to a simple conclusion that the author let you down, in one way or another. 

Three, Intentionality 

I believe that there is no right or wrong way of engaging with stories, regardless of their medium, and assuming no one gets hurt in the process. While in a strictly academic way, there is a “correct” way of reading (and reading into) media, we here are largely not academics but consumers; consumption is subjective.

However, this all changes when intentionality is ascribed. 

The one I find particularly fascinating is the intentionality of “making it bad on purpose” because, as open-minded as I intend to always be, this just does not happen.

It certainly does not happen in long-form media. Even in the bread-crumb mystery box-type long-form media. 

When television programs underdeliver, they also underperform, and then they get cancelled.

If all the elements of Westworld Season 4 that did not sit together in a completely satisfactory way were written deliberately as some sort of deconstruction for the final season to explore, then it failed because that final season will now never come.

(There will likely never be a Secret Fourth Episode.)

And look, I am not here to refute your theories. Creativity is fun, and theorising is fantastic. 

But, perhaps, when the line of thought ventures into the “bad on purpose” territory, it could be recognised for what it is: disappointment and optimism, attempting to coexist in a single space. And I relate to that, I do, and I am sorry that there is even a need for this line of thinking. It’s always so incredibly disappointing that a creator you believed to be devoid of flaws makes something that does not hit in the way you hoped it would. It’s pretty heartbreaking. 

Unfortunately, people make mistakes. We are all fallible that way. 

Four, Wildfire.

Then, when the crumbs are found, a theory is crafted, and intentionality is ascribed, all that needs to happen is for it to catch on. And hey, what better place for it than this massive hollow funnel that we exist in, where thoughts, ideas and interpretations reverberate so much they become inextricable from the source material in collective consciousness. 

Conspiracy theories create alternate realities, very much like we all do here. 

So where are we now?

I am not here to tell you what is right and what is wrong; what is true, and what is not. We are all entitled to engage with anything we wish, in whichever way we wish to do it. This is not it, at all. 

All I am saying is… listen.

Do you hear that echo? 

I do. 

[alchemistc]

911 was always in my periphery bc of how popular Buck x Eddie is on Tumblr and Ao3. I didn't really want to watch a cable network procedural drama, especially one that came off as so unserious. I could also see how such invested shipping by a lot of fans who are young and think it’s ok to demand things from the cast and crew would inevitably become a toxic cesspool. I stand by that assessment of the show based on the behavior of the fandom these last months, as well as the overall quality of the writing and how often good story lines just get dropped or undermined.

However, I heard about Buck coming out. Over the summer, I was going through a lot and feeling aimless, so I finally started watching the show. And I liked Buck and Tommy, but what I really loved was the quality of the fan works they inspired. At the end of the day, I never really had real expectations of high quality television from a show like 911; that’s not what it’s for.

Despite this, what really affected me last night—which was also the first episode I bothered watching live ever because of how terrible this last week has been—wasn’t even how badly it was executed or the fact that they broke up. But how unnecessarily and viciously cruel the whole thing felt?

What was the point of showing Tommy as a caring, supportive, present partner in the previous episode if it was going to lead to an unceremonious break up? What was the point of showing his yearning for connection and family only to see him throw it all away? Why have him say such wonderful things about Buck moments before questioning the commitment of their relationship after six months together? What was the point of Buck getting that speech from Josh and bringing up marriage and moving in together and that Tommy had been a transformative relationship when it was going to end with him being dumped? It just felt so horribly cruel to see a character bare his tender heart and see it get stomped on. He looked so sad at the end.

Up till the very end of the episode, I was actually really enjoying it. Their acting was so good from heart eyes to heartbreak, and the show seemed to understand Tommy’s reaction to Buck getting hit on by those women would cause friction. It even made sense to me that Tommy would recoil at the prospect of moving in together because Buck clearly hasn’t come to terms with being queer yet (sir, you haven’t researched the Kinsey scale? You?) And Tommy is also clearly afraid to reach for the connections he wants and the seeming inevitability of his heart being broken and is masking that with nonsense about Buck needing to play the field and the biphobia present wherein. It was such an interesting depth to his character! I thought the break up speech was so well-acted, and I was so ready for the conversation they were going to have that would address it and let them move on together stronger. To see Buck learn from Josh and see the scars Tommy was unintentionally revealing in that moment and address them.

And then the credits started rolling and I felt like I got punched in the gut.

It was definitely the straw that broke the camel’s back for me, with the election and other personal stuff really stressing me out this week. Last night, I felt sick and unable to sleep, and I spent the morning bawling my eyes out. It feels like one of the few things I really looked forward to had been snatched away for the shock factor. I believe the interviews are the definite death knell, but even if you don’t follow the interviews, it was just a cruel way to end the episode. Even if this ends up being a temporary roadblock or they “fix” it, it’ll always leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Anyway, I’m upset that I let a show I always knew wasn’t very good affect me this much, and I regret spending months of my life on it. But the reason I wanted to send this ask was because my real hyperfixation these last few months was never the show itself; it was always the Bucktommy fandom. Reading some of the most beautiful fanfiction, including yours, these deep and intense character studies or au’s or future fics that show more love to these characters than the show does. The stunning art, the lovingly rendered gifs, the startlingly funny and insightful writing. The fandom has been my real love, and I hope that despite this huge blow, people like you will continue being so immensely creative and artistic for this ship.

I’m sorry this has been so long and vent-y, but I wanted to send you this ask because you’re one of my favorite fic authors, and I’ve been following your posts since last night and you’re still responding to anonymous asks. I’ve always been stealth in the fandom to avoid certain parts of it, so didn’t want this on my own blog. If you do publish it, I hope the other authors and artists and creators who have made my life better get to see it too <3 And that they don’t regret the time and passion and love they’ve poured into the last few months. I have appreciated it, if nothing else.

Hi.

First of all, please don't apologize for the length of this.

Everything you pointed out were exactly the reasons people joined this fandom. Everything you listed here is EXACTLY the reason it left such a bad taste in our mouth.

I'm sorry I won't be more eloquent in this post, because this is such a kind and thoughtful and lovely summation of all the things I've been hearing and seeing and feeling.

The point of all that, if we are to believe Lou (which I do, and honestly props to him for being as gracious as he was in those post-mortems: fucking TWO exit interviews for a guest star? wtf abc), WAS to pull the rug out from under the audience. It WAS to end it all on a shocker of heartbreak. They filmed the bulk of Tommy's S8 scenes AFTER the breakup. It is absolutely vicious and cruel and meant to make people talk about it. The engagement they are getting right now is to some extent WHAT THEY WANTED. I went straight to my notes after work and I can't be fucked to check the insta or FB to see if they've posted anything new and/or what the comment count is on the 8x06 posts but THIS IS THE INTENDED RESULT. Broken hearts, upset people, an increasingly toxic fandom crowing.

That's where I'm at. I think that's where a lot of people have landed. And it's so disheartening to see something that really genuinely drew people in because it was handled so gently and kindly at first just be ripped away and the door shut on it.

And honestly if they close the mid season OR open or close 8B on a premise that includes one of them being injured and the other having a Realization™️ I won't trust this team to do it genuinely or truly. Even the breakup would have held so much potential for me, but not like this.

Anyway. I'm sorry you're feeling so disappointed. I am grieving the missed potential of literally every plot they built up this season for every character and if I do watch it won't be live and I will likely have very little trust for it's potential. There has been So Much wasted potential.

And I want to say thank you. Even if you lurked, even if you disengage now, the creators who made those works made them out of love and they wanted to share them and the community around it all has been lovely to see. Thank you.

Some of us will still be hanging around building the world that could have been. I hope, if you feel up to peeking at that sandbox, that you feel welcome to go play in it or even just clap from the sidelines.

♥️

[alpaca-clouds]

BG3 fans, we gotta talk CPTSD

Okay, I have spend about a week considering writing this blog, but I really gotta say, that it is something people really need to understand. See, I mostly see this issue with Astarion and his depiction in fandom. However, I would argue that it is a thing that affects literally all characters that play some sort of bigger in this entire game. Including many NPCs.

But let me start with Astarion. See, I wrote the blog two weeks ago about people being judgy on people, who do not want to have graveyard sex with him. Mostly people will argue how Astarion should be allowed to have his agency in that moment - while I argued that whoever the player is playing should have also agency in that scene. Including the agency to say "no" for whatever reason. I also included that my Tav absolutely denied Astarion, because he was not trusting that Astarion in the scene really was ready for it, for a variety of reasons. Which is very much a valid reason for someone not to want to sleep with someone else. (Literally every reason is a good reason for that, mind you.)

And obviously there came the comment, that went basically: "As someone who was raped I am very appalled by you saying that raped people cannot consent." Which is very much not what I said.

What I said was, that my Tav did not consent. Yes, he did not consent because he thought Astarion was not ready for it - but he is the one not consenting. It does not matter for this whether his assumption about Astarion is true or not. Tav does not feel comfortable in the scene, so Tav does not want sex right there.

However... If you consider the drow orgy scene, Tav is also very much right. If you do that scene after defeating Cazador, Astarion is enthusiastically consenting to that orgy, but he still ends up dissociating during the scene. (And in that scene, even if your character notices it, you cannot go "Stop!" Which I hate.)

Here is the thing. If you are in the BDSM scene, you might actually have encountered a scenario in real life where someone was enthusiastically consenting to something - only to them realize, that they were not into it at all. And people can withdraw their consent IRL at this point. Only that in this game, obviously you can't. So within the game choices I will just start out with "no" for this character.

Still, that is actually not what I mainly wanted to talk about. No.

What I wanted to talk about is the other thing. I absolutely know that for a variety of reasons a lot of SA survivors do identify with Astarion, and I do not want to take that from anyone. I think it is amazing that we got a character with whom we see this issue portrayed seriously. And let's face it. Especially in tumblr fandom circles, we will have a lot of SA survivors, because the userbase of this website is majority afab, and many are queer. And we know from statistics that queer afab people are even more likely than non-queer afab people to experience SA at some point in there life. So, yes, Astarion is going to be embraced by this community makes sense - even without his dashing looks.

But here we get to the actual meat of the issue: Astarion was not just raped. Astarion was abused in a variety of ways - some of them sexual - over the course of 200 years. He went not through a single traumatic event, but an ongoing trauma that, again, lasted for 200 years.

Or to put different: Astarion does not have PTSD. He has C-PTSD. Complex trauma. The kind of trauma that develops when the trauma lasts over a long, long time, without the survivor getting a chance to ever really properly ever relax. Something that was very true for Astarion's time under Cazador. He was under constant threat of rape, torture, and other forms of violence.

While CPTSD is a form of PTSD, it has some differing symptoms - and additional symptoms from plain old PTSD.

I found this graphic on this blog here, and found it fairly good in the depictions. (If you google CPTSD you will find several graphics like this.) It shows very well the additional symptoms, compared to normal trauma.

Generally speaking, CPTSD brings a lot stronger issues with self-worth, interpersonal problems, and emotional regulation. CPTSD folks are often prone to emotional outbursts (this graphic names anger, but technically it can be all other kinds of emotional outbursts - which is why at times CPTSD gets confused with BPD).

And Astarion is written like this. He shows very much all the symptoms of CPTSD. And let's be honest: That is an issue he will have to deal with for a long, long while.

But... As I said, the same is actually true for pretty much all the characters.

If you look at the companions, it is obvious.

Gale spent at least a year in constant fear of blowing up. While Mystra's abusiveness towards him within the relationship prior the orb is more fanon than canon (though the relationship was defnitely not an easy one), the "one year in constant fear of death" is very likely going to instill some form of CPTSD in him.

Karlach was a slave for 10 years, forced to fight in the hells. While she will also probably suffer from certain forms of PTSD more common in soldiers. Additionally I would argue that she also has some CPTSD from tiefling-racism. While she does not bring it up often... She does seem to have a thing there.

With Wyll it is a bit more complicated. Yes, for him I would see the kind of CPTSD I have - parental abuse related. Ulder was not openly abusive, but neither was my mother, and guess what fucked me most up in my childhood, despite experiencing some really bad violence elsewhere.

Shadowheart was abused by Viconia and midwashed and tortured and was forced to kill her fucking pet mouse. Bonus points that a lot of it happened during her childhood. She very much is gonna suffer the consequences.

Lae'zel... Do I really need to say something about her upbringing among the Gith?

Then we have Halsin. We know fairly little about his background, given that he is very coy in talking about it. But his "three years as a drow slave" definitely make it likely that he has developed some form of CPTSD.

And then we have Jaheira and Minsc. For whom just the... Well, look folks, the adventuring lifestyle would logically also leave you with CPTSD of some sort.

Even if you play a Tav who entered the game after having a very untraumatic life... They will spent what has to be at least two months with a tadpole in their head threatening to kill them - while half of Baldur's Gate is trying to do the same. They'll have PTSD after this at the very least, if not CPTSD. (Even though, let's face it, chances are we all gave our Tavs more than enough background trauma to go along with it, right?)

And same goes for so many other characters. The tiefling refugees. Our main villains (especially Gortash and Orin). Cazador. The other vampire spawn (duh). The list goes on.

So, what am I trying to say here?

Well, for once I just want to make sure folks understand that CPTSD is a thing that exists and while being similar to normal PTSD differs in some points. Including the fact that people with CPTSD have a high likelihood to make very rash decisions driven by instable emotional states, that might be harmful to them on the long run.

And mind you. In real life most people with CPTSD have it because either they were bullied for a long time, or were in an abusive relationship of some sort. (Abusive parents, abusive partners, abusive friends/roommates.) But even in those heightened scenarios the game represents for the most part - the issues are gonna be still mainly the same.

[lemotmo]

one thing i'm a bit worried about as we got into season 8 is that there are a lot of fans talking about buddie like it's an inevitability and saying things like "buddie canon confirmed" because of the bts stuff we've seen.

it feels like people are setting themselves up for being disappointed and mad if buddie doesn't end up going canon (and honestly, it's kind of their fault for reading so much into fun little posts from the cast when the only way they'd ever confirm buddie is in an episode).

i really want buddie to be canon, but I'm keeping my expectations low because I don't want to be disappointed and it feels like people should be prepared for that potential outcome.

All right Nonny, here's the thing...

I get it. I completely understand what you are saying. I have been in the 911 fandom since season 1 (not so much on Tumblr) and when season 2 happened I hopped onto the Buddie train (on Tumblr).

I have been there, season after season after season. I saw people building up a lot of hope only for that hope to end up in disappointment. And I felt some of that disappointment as well. Although I have to admit I was always on the sidelines. I never really thought it would ever go canon. I hoped for it, but I had very low expectations.

After all, both men were canonically straight. Even though we could all see the queer-coding, fundamentally nothing ever changed. Buddie got closer than ever, but they still had girlfriends and relationships.

So yeah, I didn't have high expectations and I was happy just chilling in my little Buddie corner, speculating and reading/writing fan fic. Just genuinly having a good time.

But then season 7 happened. The show got cancelled by FOX at the end of season 6 and ABC picked it up. The first thing ABC did was put Ryan and Oliver front and center, having them freely talk about Buddie. I couldn't believe my eyes when these interviews happened. Articles were written, not just by smaller click bait sites, but actual reputable magazine sites. I watched all of this with wide eyes, not sure what to think of it. 'Would they? Could they?'

Then another bomb went off when 7x04 happened and Buck came out as bisexual. I was floored. For the first time in 6 seasons, I started entertaining the idea that the show might just go there. If they made Buck bisexual, surely they wouldn't ignore the highly popular Buddie aspect of it? Would they?

Let's not get into the whole Tommy debacle that happened afterwards. Because in the end it's not important for this answer. Tommy has been set up as a narrative device to help Buck out of the closet. He isn't even a factor in the overspanning Buddie arc we've seen progressing over 6 seasons.

I also want to add that it's crazy that we know for sure that it was actually supposed to be Eddie who would come out of the closet (first).

The end of season 7 gave us an Eddie who told Kim that he is broken and he can't be fixed. Chris left and now he's all alone. No more Chris, Marisol or any other distractions. He is on his own now. Lots of time to reflect upon his life and relationships. His arc will be built around his emotional journey and his personal growth. And we all know who will be by his side for all of it. It's a given at this point.

Then we have Ryan doing these interviews, saying things like:

“The character has been established now, we kind of know what to expect with the vibe. Now it’s just kind of falling back in old rhythm. The only thing different now is where the character’s head is at and where he is going.”

Next to that we have new looks for both Ryan and Oliver. A new beginning perhaps? That moustache has some clear queer symbolism attached to it as well. Something we cannot ignore, because the show knows that its fans aren't stupid and they also know that they have a solid queer fanbase.

And yes, Ryan and Oliver seem happy and relaxed on set these days, while especially Oliver didn't seem all that happy at the end of season 7. In fact, Oliver has completely ignored the Tommy aspect of his new 'canon' relationship. He speaks more about Buck's bi journey and ignores the Tommy factor as much as possible.

So Nonny, if you read all of the above information (and I'm sure I forgot a bunch of stuff) how can you not become more hopeful and a lot more positive that there is a high chance of Buddie happening in season 8?

I'm all for protecting yourself from possible disappointment, but when you are constantly wrapping yourself into a protective cocoon so you don't get hurt in the process, you might just miss the best (and most fun) part of being a shipper: the experience of your slow-burn ship finally becoming canon.

I admit it! I too strongly believe Buddie might just happen in season 8. I'm almost completely sure.

And yes, if Buddie doesn't happen, there will be disappointment and there will be people who choose to express that disappointment through anger. But honestly?

They would kinda have a point.

Because no, it wouldn't be the fans' own fault for getting their hopes up if Buddie doesn't happen. During previous seasons I would have said 'yes', but not now. Not anymore. Now I would definitely say that they are right. It's the show itself that has gotten our hopes up by the consistent Buddie promo, the many Buddie scenes, the whole Eddie being in every part of the BT arc thing, the bts and all the other things they've thrown at us. They know exactly what they are doing. They are hyping Buddie up to the max.

I don't actually believe there will be disappointment though. This is truly the first season where I have been pretty confident that Buddie is in the works. I've never had that feeling before and I've been here forever.

Now that being said, complete certainty doesn't exist for a shipper. if, for some reason, Buddie doesn't happen? There will be disappointment (for me as well) and anger (for me not so much), but in the end that emotion will fade and Buddie will become just another great fandom experience with a bad ending. We've all been there before. It happens.

That is just the nature of being in fandom: 'You win some, you lose some.'

However... this time? With Buddie?

I really think we're about to win big. Sorry Nonny!

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

[scoobydoodean]

I was wondering if you, as a Dean fan have opinions about the different writers? Mostly because I see a lot of Dean fans really strongly dislike Dabb for some reason and I don’t really understand why. I’ve never seen a concrete explanation beyond “he can’t write Dean/doesn’t understand Dean/actively hates Dean” but with no examples as to what he does that’s so bad. And I see this in every shipping lane. I don’t have a strong opinion about him as a writer one way or the other.

I'm exploring this more as I rewatch the show (currently on season 6) so I'll speak mainly from that perspective on my most recent thoughts. I am not a big fan of Dabb or Loflin, but have tried to be fair about things so far when talking through each episode. I am a fan of "Alpha and Omega"—it's my favorite finale (it's also... a finale for a season Carver started as showrunner? So I don't know what the implications are there as far as storyboarding). Also points for having demon Dean stab a guy through in 10.02.

I'll focus on the negatives you asked about in this post, but in the links you'll find me moving the narrative this way and that toward much more charitable readings... I think. (I do have a tag #dabb disk horse which you can either peruse or blacklist at your leisure). What I can tell you is something almost always strikes me as a off about Dabb/Loflin episodes so far in this rewatch in terms of character work.

Dabb/Loflin's first ever episode was 4.06 "Yellow Fever". In the aftermath, Kripke felt the need to release a definitive interpretation of their episode to the public, stating, "Dean is not a dick... he's a hero." The whole episode toyed with, to an extent, the idea that all the victims of the MotW were bullies. You can take this other directions—for example, queer meta, or meta about Sam as the real bully. However, the story a lot of fandom latched onto was that "Dean is a jerk and deserves to be humiliated and punished for that" which obviously didn't make Dean fans watching live in season 4 happy—and this theme of Jerk!Dean continues into their next episode, "After School Special", where they once again parallel Dean with a bully literally nicknamed "Dirk the Jerk" by Sam, and throw what I think is transparent shade at Kripke's issued statement from before the Christmas break (post here)... or maybe they mean to throw shade at the Dean fans who got angry. In this episode, they also make illusions to Dean wanting to have sex with barely legal high school cheerleaders, which also did not ingratiate them to Deanfans at the time. I said on my last rewatch, "In After School Special, Dean seems more unlike himself than any episode ever in the history of Supernatural up to this point" (post explaining that here). I carry similar sentiments about portions of 5.06 "I Believe The Children Are Our Future". Yes—I am aware of performing Dean meta. I just... feel like they try a little too hard. It feels hamfisted—desperate. To the point it doesn't feel like Dean anymore sometimes. In 5.06, they also have Dean (guy who is generally very protective of kids) suggest to Jesse that he'd be good to have in a fight???? I can see how they got there, but again—it just feels... off. The last episode I rewatched that they authored, 6.04 "Weekend At Bobby's", also leaves a bad taste in my mouth—not in what it's trying to do with Bobby or what it's trying to do on a meta level—but once again, with dialogue from Dean that just makes me think "he would not fucking say that" (post here). I think looking at all of these, you can probably see deangirl ire toward Dabb has a long history. It's been around as long as he's been around, whether he deserves as much ire as he gets or not.

I haven't circled back yet on this rewatch, but Dabb and Loflin also penned season 7's "The Girl Next Door"... do I need to say anything specific? Maybe I'll just link my entire #amy tag. What narrative did they want you to get from that episode? Who the fuck knows. And that's often the problem:

When you watch various episodes I've mentioned, you can work around to a meta that tells you something different than you might at first think the page conveys—something hidden and maybe contradictory. The thing is... you could also... not do that? And that wouldn't be so bad, except that sometimes the two narratives you can most easily grasp completely contradict each other. "After School Special" can be an episode that points to Sam's envy of Dean and John deep down and foreshadows Sam becoming a bully, but on a meta level, it also just as easily says Sam becoming a bully is somehow Dean's fault, and Sam is some poor captive baby. Dean is a creep and a bully and a cheater but we should all coddle him because he saw his mom die when he was a child and he's sooo sad. "Yellow Fever" can be a queer meta story and might also foreshadow approaching Bully!Sam in 4.14, but it also very much does call Dean a jerk (should we take that seriously? should we not?) and implies Dean should be punished for the outcome of three decades of reality-bending torture. Even if it's a queer meta underneath... it's just as easily one about how closeted men should be humiliated for cowardice or how being closeted turns you into an asshole.

Jumping way ahead, I have to mention 15.10 "The Hero's Journey" just because. Yes, it is full of jokes and Garth goodness, but also tries to sell you the story that nothing about Sam and Dean is real, to a degree that feels like you are being flipped the bird for ever watching this show. And again—you can make meta that it's all a ruse! But is it? Or is Dabb actually just telling you to go fuck yourself? Like he totally wasn't when, after the SPN finale when fans were Not Happy™️, he tweeted a sign reading, "Don't feed the baboons"? Yet again—we play into the motif of the "hero" who isn't a hero at all but some pathetic loser who deserves to be publicly humiliated, bookended with Dabb's opening episode in his opening season. I'm not saying that's what it is on purpose—but I am saying you can make these arguments easily, and that leaves me consistently annoyed with Dabb for being fucking sloppy and leaving me to deal with some of the most insufferable meta imaginable that carries little support outside of episodes written by Dabb or the Dabb/Loflin writing team.... Yes—I am in fact saying that Dabb and Loflin's hamfisted episodes (regardless of their intentions) are largely responsible for some of the most insufferable, loathesome fandom metas about Sam and Dean's relationship around.

Look at 5.16 "Dark Side Of The Moon", and 7.08 "Time for A Wedding!" and 8.14 "Trial and Error", 11.17 "Red Meat", and 15.20 "Carry On". Along with 4.13, while they might or might not say something deeper or contradictory on a meta level, on a surface level, every single one of these episodes sows the narrative that Dean is needy and clingy and needs Sam more than Sam needs him—something I intensely disagree with for a multitude of reasons... but I'll just link this. Many of these episodes also follow a surface level narrative of "normal life obsessed Sam" (and here I'll link my entire #sam the hunter tag and #in which sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea). When I look at this episode list, I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that Dabb wanted Dean to die in the finale. There is nothing at all shocking about that. And yes—you can argue he's pointing to the opposite—that this fate should be subverted and that's what makes 15.20 the dark ending, but I think you can just as easily argue that yes it's a dark ending and yes Dabb has always dreamed of this ending. A "tragic" ending where Dean dies and Sam goes on to have a white picket fence... while also leaving you little hints along the way that maybe it's all a big ruse because how could he not? He never has to explain anything. Someone else will pick up the story and make it make sense. He's already fucked off to piss all over fans of Resident Evil.

That said, when I mention what I feel is off character work, I mainly mention Dabb/Loflin episodes from my recent rewatch, which suffer from the two of them being newer to the series (coming onto the writing team in season 4) and also leave questions about whether, perhaps, they had conflicting ideas about characterization. Was Dabb the one penning these lines? Was it Loflin? Was it both? Did they trade out who took the lead? I didn't really say anything negative about "Sam, Interrupted" or "Jump the Shark"... (though "Sam, Interrupted" also calls Dean "codependent") who wrote those? Is it possible that the messiness of the meta comes down to two writers at war? I have to imagine though, that they got along, or else they wouldn't have written together for four fucking years. If they didn't get along...? My mind always comes back to their first solo episodes, right after splitting up in season 8. Dabb's first solo episode is "Hunteri Heroici"—the only episode to lend any perspective to season 8 Sam's reasons for abandoning everyone—paralleling him checking out with Fred's catatonia, which Sam has to save Fred from. It is the only episode that lends Sam sympathy in the early part of the season. He follows it up with "Trial and Error"—where Sam promises to save Dean from suicidal thoughts. Loflin's first solo episode is what I would regard as the most scathing solo episode commentary on Sam in the entire series—"Citizen Fang". Then he writes again right after Dabb's "Trial and Error"—penning "Remember The Titans" where Sam tells Dean to get over the promise Sam so passionately made in Dabb's episode and face reality.

This is why we're exploring this rewatch.

DISCLAIMER: Now I just devolve into bitching because I'm writing at 3AM. Proceed at your own risk.

It seems like these days, everyone demands an explanation for disliking Dabb (something about some sort of destiel battle... I don't know what that flamewar is and I don't give a damn tbqh.) I guess I've just been wondering what's actually so great about him. Because it feels like people have overcorrected to basically acting like he's god's greatest gift to mankind. People point to how meta his episodes can be, but I think other writers easily best him on that front on multiple occasions (particularly enjoyed by me so far on this rewatch: 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me", 4.04 "Monster Movie", 4.12 "Criss Angel Is A Douchebag"), and without leaving their meaning so up in the air that you don't even know what the hell they were actually trying to tell you because there are two different completely incongruous narratives you could just as justifiably claim were the intended one. Some people may find that duality praise-worthy. I don't. I find it sloppy—and when I add in mediocre character work, I just land on the side of him being, at the very best, mid.

Add him in as showrunner, you have... at least two of my least favorite seasons (13 and 15). Add that he's a one-trick pony in terms of the Sam and Dean conflicts mentioned above that he continuously rehashes rather than come up with anything new or fresh, and the same conflicts between Dean and Cas being played out until they both die (shut UP I'm not talking about canon destiel as the alternative—I am literally just asking for more diverse conflicts). I can't say I understand what I''m supposed to find so impressive.

(Before anyone so much as breathes this near me, Berens also sucks and I am going to tear off your nose hairs if you start bringing him up as if disliking Dabb for some reason means wearing rose colored glasses about Berens. Berens can eat a whole cactus raw over "The Trap" alone.)

[blackbird-brewster]

Meta: Jemily Queerbaiting

With the huge influx of posts saying 'Jemily is gonna be canon', I really appreciated seeing this post because OP was completely correct. I didn't want to write an entire dissertation as a reply, so I'm making my own post with my personal opinion on this. (All sources are noted in footnotes)

Before I began this rant, for anyone who thinks this is anti-Jemily. It is not. I have shipped Jemily for 18 friggin years and that's never going to change. This post is specifically my thoughts about queer baiting.

First off, I need to note that the showrunners (and the cast members who use social media) KNOW what a huge queer following this show has and that's why we got pansexual Tara Lewis in S16 [1]. Which, in itself, was SOOOOOOO important!!! Our first canonically queer main in SIXTEEN seasons was a middle-aged Black woman!!! That's phenomenal. (The fact it was horrible rep, because they instantly ruined her relationships once her queerness served it's plot point is a whole other post entirely)

In my opinion, the 'big Jemily moment' Paget posted about on Twitter [2] (and AJ hinted at during a recent IG live) is simply queerbaiting to get people to watch S17. I know a lot of you are newer to the fandom and I love your enthusiasm, I really do, ship and let ship, but listen, let's be real, Jemily is not going to be made canon. The showrunners aren't going to suddenly say (after 17 seasons) 'Surprise, Jemily is endgame'. This show has never cared about queer rep and now that CBS/Paramount have already ticked their queer rep box with Tara, they won't be in any rush to add any other characters to it.

Please buckle in, I've got a lot of thoughts on this matter --

What is Queerbaiting?

If you aren't aware of what queerbaiting is, here's a good definition:

Historically, queerbaiting has carried two meanings: the first is an act of aggressive heterosexuality to shut down queer subtext on screen while still teasing and catering to the queer audience in advertising, public relations, and fan engagement strategies; the second is an existing homoerotic tension between two characters played up on screen while met with derision by the professionals behind the scenes. [3]

The Medium article quoted here is from 2017, a time when parasocial relationships were really starting to take over social media. In 2024, actors are now only a mention or tag away online, they have direct conversations with fans, and this process has allowed for an even deeper form of queerbaiting.

Oftentimes online, actors are asked directly about certain ships and while some ignore these questions (usually to avoid breaking their contracts or other repercussions), others (looking at you, Paget) choose to instead tease fans about queer ships. She's done this for years upon years and if I've learned anything in the past twenty-years of existing in fandom spaces it's this -- don't hold your breath. In it's original meaning, for something to be deemed as queerbaiting there had to be malicious, or at least, purposeful intent to string queer fans along by teasing them with suggestive content about the ship in question, while knowing this ship will never come to fruition in canon.

The thing to remember is, Paget and AJ aren't the only ones who know about Jemily shippers -- the network and showrunners are well aware of this ship too. When networks/showrunners figure out they have a strong sapphic fanbase, they love to use that to their advantage to get more viewers and higher ratings. Queerbaiting is a goldmine to keep fans watching long running shows, look at Rizzoli and Isles, Supergirl, and OUAT for examples of this.

Jemily and Queerbaiting:

Ever since Emily joined the BAU in S2 (2006), there have always been fans who ship JJ/Emily (shoutout to the old LJ forums!). Way before celebs were just a tweet away from fans, back when all our fics began with disclaimers so we wouldn't get sued by networks, we went to great lengths to keep our fanworks far removed from actors/showrunners attention.

As far as Jemily goes, this reply from Paget in a 2009 interview with TVGuide.com [4] (which has now been deleted from their site unfortunately, but there are quotes on Tumblr still [4.a]) confirmed some fans' worst fear -- the actors had found our fanworks online.

TVGuide.com: Of course, a band of fans want her to hook up with Hotch.

Brewster: I know! I didn't realize that fans make these videos on YouTube? A.J. Cook sent me a hilarious one that made it look like Prentiss and J.J. were having a secret lesbian affair. You know, when Hotch was blown up in the SUV, we shot this scene where he's in the hospital and I'm standing next to him, looking at his bleeding ear. Our director came in and said, "Paget, you're looking at Hotch like you're in love with him. It looks really weird." So now, every day, Thomas [Gibson] and I flutter our eyelids at each other.

This was the first time I recall anyone acknowledging Jemily shippers publicly and at the time (Jan 2009), the show was still in Season Four (just before CBS fired both AJ and Paget [5]). Paget genuinely said it's 'hilarious' that fans shipped JJ/Emily. Even now, I'll see people say 'We know Paget and AJ have seen Jemily fanvids, so they obviously ship it too' -- but those same people rarely acknowledge the full context of the original answer. Paget not only thought JJ/Emily were 'hilarious', but then she doubled down and turned her reply back to how she and Thomas liked to play up the chemistry between Emily/Hotch.

While no one can say for sure which video it was that AJ sent Paget, just knowing they were watching JJ/Emily fanvids sent a bit of a shockwave through the femslash side of the fandom. To some it felt like an invasion of privacy, fanworks are by fans for fans -- knowing the cast were poking around in fandom spaces added an extra layer of worry around what we fans were posting online. Fifteen years ago, it used to be quite taboo for actors to outwardly discuss shipping or other fanon for whatever show they were in, and we fans were usually comfortably removed from the actors altogether.

Of course, now it's the norm for fans and actors/showrunners to co-exist online and interact with one another. This connection has opened new ways for shows to queerbait their fans. Pretty much every show has some form of social media account now and there is no doubt that the people running those accounts keep up with the most popular ships and hashtags. Not to mention that actors are constantly barraged with questions about whether they ship their character with x,y,z, or whether they think a ship should be made canon, etc. These interactions only serve to benefit the shows themselves, because whether the conversation is for or against a certain ship, it's all just free publicity (Why do you think CM now has a TikTok account?)

Every time AJ or Paget say anything about Jemily, the queer side of the fandom loses their minds. But this has been going on for YEARS now and every single time, it turns out to be nothing but social media hype and queerbaiting. Remember this AJ post? [6] Or what about the notorious reply by Paget to a fan, where she talks about how she and AJ held hands under the table 'for the shippers' [7] I've seen this cycle over and over again, so perhaps I am cynical, but I'm not getting my hopes up that Jemily will ever seriously be canon.

It's widely known now, after both Kirsten [8] and Paget [9] have talked about it, that there was an early idea where Prentiss was supposed to be queer, but that was ultimately scraped before it ever made it on screen. For context, please remember, this show has been airing for nearly twenty years. It began in 2005, during the highly conservative Bush administration. Queer people didn't have rights in the US, we couldn't get married, we were rarely protected under discrimination laws, and we could even be fired for simply being queer (in some states). Diverse queer representation on screen was extremely limited to things like 'The L Word' and 'Queer as Folk' (both aired on Showtime, so they were behind a paywall. And as far as tLw goes, that show was extremely male-gaze focused and is horrible in nearly all regards if you try to rewatch it now). As far as prime time shows went, queer rep was even more rare. Which is why Emily wasn't queer from the get-go.

Yes, things have changed since 2006 in terms of queer rep on TV. We have a myriad of queer identities represented in TV and film nowadays, which is why I think it's so easy for newer fans to say 'lf she was supposed to be gay anyway, they should just make Emily queer in canon!' I know this is what fuels most fans' demands for Emily being confirmed queer, and I get it, I DO. I would be all for it! However, I do not, in one hundred years, actually believe that is going to happen after they already canonically queer confirmed Tara in S16. The fact we even got ONE queer character is ground-breaking for this show.

It's also worth noting, that in the time between Paget's departure in 2012 and her return in 2016, she became very active on Twitter. This was when more and more fans began asking her about Jemily and after Kirsten's AfterEllen interview, fans also pushed for Paget to address the possibility of Emily being gay. 'Pushed' is actually an understatement for some of the outright harassment she would receive. (AJ received some of this harassment too, but less so because she doesn't use social media ass often) Back then, neither of them replied to these things directly. Yet, no matter what either woman posted, the replies were full of Jemily stans begging for her acknowledgement. (Did you know 'stan' is literally a term coined for stalker fans?) I remember one time AJ's friend was missing and she posted info on her IG about it, you know what the replies were? People asking her about Jemily. It was genuinely sickening.

Within this context, it was no surprise to fans when Emily came back in S12 , she and JJ's friendship was seemingly erased. The two women were rarely on screen together in the late seasons, plus the writers saw fit to even give Emily not only one (Mark in London, but two, on-screen boyfriends for the first time in the entire series. I personally do not think these changes to Emily's character were coincidence, I saw the hellscape of what people would say to AJ and Paget online and I fully believe that upon Paget's return to the show, the showrunners purposely tried to distance JJ and Emily to dissuade the more abusive side of the fanbase.

Can I prove that, no. But it is the only reason I can think of as to why Emily S12+ seemingly didn't care about JJ anymore, despite their deep and meaningful friendship. I mean, they both CROSSED THE WORLD to go rescue each other in prior canon -- but when Emily comes back, they acted like they barely knew each other. This was even more prevalent in S16, when JJ's main storylines all revolved around Will, and Emily barely looked at JJ in the entirety of ten episodes. (Remember how Prentiss didn't even hug JJ after bomb, but she did go hug Luke?)

So, do Paget and AJ earnestly ship Jemily, or are they continuing the long tradition of queerbaiting us? Who fucking knows, not me. But based on the history of this fandom, I think I can make a safe bet. (Interestingly, if you search all of Paget's twitter for the word 'Jemily' [10] she only has 3 direct tweets mentioning the ship. I don't think it's a coincidence that two are within the past few months since they started filming S17 (the other one was a RT of Kirsten (who tagged something Jemily)

This is all to say --

Just because Paget and AJ have publicly talked about Jemily,, this doesn't mean it's ever going to happen on screen. And you know what, THAT'S OKAY!! There has been this constant outcry (after Tara became queer confirmed) of 'Do Emily next' or 'Why wasn't it Emily with a girlfriend!?' and 'Jemily needs to be canon in S17!' -- as if people believe their ships aren't worth anything unless they are canon.

That couldn't be further from the truth! Fandom is built on headcanons and fan interpretations and rare pairs and all types of shippers. Your ship does NOT need to be canon for you to enjoy it. I will ship Jemily forever, no matter what. I don't think there will be some magical queer plot in S17, at best, we might actually get to see Emily/JJ on screen together again and after the train wreck that was S16 -- I'll take whatever I can get.

And hey -- if I am completely wrong, if Erica Messer pulls a Korrasami out of her hat, I will be ecstatic. I will be happy to be proved wrong, but at the same time, I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I'm DEFINITELY not going to go hound the actors about it on social media.

Sources:

[1] 2022 Digital Spy article about the importance of Tara's coming out

[2] 04/18/24 Paget Tweet

[3] 2017 Queerbaiting article from medium.com

[4] 2009 Broken TVGuide link

[4.a] Tumblr quote from the above TVGuide Interview

[5] 2010 Kirsten interview screenrant.com

[6] 2019 AJ Instagram Post

[7] 2020 Paget video on Twitter (via @karasluthqr)

[8] 2015 Kirsten interview AfterEllen.com

[9] 2016 Paget Interview CriminalMindsFans.com

[10] @PagetPaget search 'Jemily'

[hawkinsschoolcounselor]

I wanted to share something as someone who isn't familiar with queer stories and stuffs. If the Duffers wanted Mileven to stay endgame then they really fucked things up. I was at college discussing with many straight people and all of them agreed that Mike and Will's dynamic is "weird" . Someone even thought that Finn and Noah were dating because they were confused about their dynamic onscreen. We can talk about queerbaiting if queer people were being fooled but once you see a huge majority of the straight community joining Byler's side , it's not queerbaiting anymore, it's just terrible writing.

We can also talk about how Mileven lost a huge percentage of their shippers after season 4. Making the main ship unlikeable and then not addressing the situation to make people understand that they didn't really understand Mike's arc in season 4 is enough for me to say that Byler has to be an endgame or they would have closed the topic a long time ago. Marketing wise , Byler also makes more sense as the Byler fandom is the biggest fandom of stranger things. There isn't a world where Byler doesn't happen in my opinion.

They do have good on-screen chemistry, though I wish people would leave the actors personal lives out of it. Even if they were dating, it'd be none of anyone's business really.

That said, I seem to recall that Finn and Noah were put through a chemistry test before they were cast to ensure they had a good dynamic. That has to count for something considering they had little direct interaction in the first season. They were already thinking ahead.

I can't personally get into how much people outside of the online fandom see either ship. My friends watch, but not as seriously as I do. I'll have to take your word for it that casual fans are noticing how things are off with Mike and El and that there's something between Mike and Will. Of course, we here have noticed it for a while, but most fans, I would think, watch the show less closely as we do.

I agree, though, that, given everything, Will getting rejected or moving on or whatever just doesn't make sense, regardless of how you look at it. The Duffers may have been able to avoid queerbaiting allegations had they not done everything they did in season 4. However, they went all-in with Will's feelings, Mike and El's continuing failing relationship, Mike's inability to act normal around Will, etc. Mike and Will being featured together on advertising. Then add on how much Will's painting and the van scene ended up factoring into marketing and merchandising.

Now, if they don't follow through, yeah, it'll be queerbaiting.

[butterflywithsass]

The good, the bad, and the ineffable omens. What makes Good Omens special.

I'm not very good at making posts on here so sorry if the formatting sucks. It's the anniversary of season two, and thinking back on everything, it's incredible how much has happened since it came out. I might get a bit long-winded, so if that's not your thing, just scroll on by. I'm just gonna take a look at why I love Good Omens, why I love the Good Omens fandom, and what the future holds for all of us who love this story.

I guess you could say I'm a bit of a new fan. I watched the first season in 2019. I liked it but I didn't really think about it until I heard it was getting a second season, and I decided to watch it again.

This second watch came at a very strange time in my life. I'd left my very introverted homeschool life behind to go to an art school in another state. I was studying creative writing, and just beginning to dream that I might be an actual writer someday. I've always gotten intensely invested in stories, a part of my ADHD that I've always struggled with. I find a story, and it consumes my soul. I have difficulty expressing emotions in real life, so stories have been an outlet for me to feel things in the persona of a character. It's this incredible power that makes me love storytelling so much. I could go on and on about the beauty of this, but that will get a bit to much so I'll move on. Mah point is...

whenever I would get really invested in a story, my parents would indulge me, but would always feel the need to mention, "You know it's not real, right?"

Anyway, for the first time, I was away from home and I could really indulge in stories without the pressure to disconnect from it to avoid the judgment of my family. For the first time, I could just be in love with a story.

A lot happened during the first year away from home, not all of which is relevant, but around this time I started owning up to my identity as bisexual. Being at an art school meant I was surrounded by queer people from all backgrounds, not all of them had the same support I did, and I witnessed secondhand as my friends went through the pain of having homophobic families who would control what art they made and who they spent time with, threatening to withdraw them from the school if they used certain names or pronouns. It was common for my friends to have a sort of shorthand code for when it was safe to use their preferred name or pronoun. Some came from very religious households, and so religion had been linked very closely to repression.

Good Omens came at a time when I was stretching my wings both in my identity as a person and as a writer and has informed what I write about ever since. As a writer, my work often focuses on themes such as fate and free will, religion and passion, divinity and humanity, and apocalyptic images. Additionally, Good Omens encouraged me to embrace comedy in my writing and to explore the absurd and whimsical. It helped me let go of the vice that held me back from writing things I thought weren't intellectual enough, or weren't creative enough.

I also became aware of the people behind the show, and of course, I grew to admire Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. I admired how Neil Gaiman seemingly defied the inevitable fate of obscure and unsuccessful writers. To me, Neil Gaiman was an example of how writers could actually make it out there in the world. Terry Pratchett, I admit, took less of an interest in because he had been long dead before I became acquainted with Good Omens, and I mistakenly gave Neil Gaiman more credit for the tv show. If you want to know more about why I saw "mistakenly," check out @vidavalor where they talk about the other writers on the show and how much they contributed. It's really quite eye-opening and it gives me hope that the show can continue well enough without Gaimen.

I also grew to become a fan of David Tennent and Micheal Sheen. And when I say a fan of David Tennent, I mean a BIG fan. The Good Omens to Doctor Who pipeline is so f*cking steep I felt like Crowley during the fall. Not just Who, though, I watched stuff like Taking Over the Asylum, Einstein and Eddington, Around the World in 80 Days, Broadchurch, Jessica Jones, Escape Artist, f*king Single Father lol. I even got into Shakespeare because of David Tennent.

The love displayed by the actors for Good Omens feels truly special. Micheal Sheen's devotion to the story shines through in everything he says about it, and David Tennent, though not originally a fan, seems to have grown more and more fond of the story. I think it's not a reach of our imagination to say that the story has become very special to both of them, even more so than to us.

It's rare to see actors treat their roles as more than just a job. The occasional publicity stunt and press tour interviews aside, the roles actors take seldom stick with them, and I think it's a testament to the power of Good Omens that this is not the case for Micheal and David.

Season 2 came out of course, and we all know how that went down. I was has heartbroken as everyone else by the final 15, but I never had any doubt that the story was destined to have a happy ending.

Unlike some shows, where the story likes to flirt with tragedy to keep viewers hooked, Good Omens is not that kind of show. Amidst the pathos and drama of the Christian/Apocalypse setting, with literal heaven and hell involved, the story is relatively clean. I enjoy some Ineffible Husbands spicy fanfiction of course, but I'm glad that Good Omens has remained relatively kid-friendly. Queer themes are so often included only in "adult media," paired with dark themes and often explicit moments making them inaccessible to kids and cementing the idea that Queerness is inherently inappropriate. While Good Omens has the occasional adult reference such as Madam Tracy's side gig as a dominatrix or the 'seamstress,' they are veiled enough to pass. Even the sex scene with Anathama and Newt is comic enough that it can hardly be classified as one. As for heaven and hell, it would be easy to try and stress the darkness of hell through plenty of disturbing subtexts and the brutality of heaven, but here the show errs towards comedy, portraying both sides as corporate systems -- both funny and much more relatable evil than torture or traumatic scenes. It's easier to understand rude co-workers, degrading comments, overbearing bosses and endless paperwork than it is to understand the sources of our perception of good and evil.

Putting Adam Young as the center of the story of season one focuses the entire narrative. At the end of the day, Good Omens is about the ineffable nature of humanity defying all odds (or gods) betting against it. It's a humanist story, showing us that no matter how much the forces of good or evil might like to influence us, whatever we do will up to us.

This theme is constantly referenced, from Crowley's habit of taking credit for anything evil humans do and claiming it was his idea, to Aziraphale's constant assertions that humans are inherently good. It's exemplified by the baby swap disaster, which is a microcosm of this theme. No matter how much the powers above and below might scheme, they're plans generally end up being irrelevant to the choices of humans.

It's why Crowley and Aziraphale love humans so much. Humans are a guide for them, showing them how they can be more than just good and evil, and on our side, it's a hopeful thought to have, that the powers of good and evil looking down on us, instead of judging us, might actually have fallen in love with us along the way. It shows us that we are allowed to love ourselves.

The love that Aziraphale and Crowley have for each other is also at the heart of this story. While it has been discussed at length, it's for good reason. Because we all need a good love story. Amidst the uncertainty and ceaseless change, there is a constant, unbreaking bond between Crowley and Aziraphale-- steady as the revolution of the cosmos. Nothing in the scope of space and time is certain, but this is. We know that because we've seen it. Good Omens manages to create a love story on both a personal and an archetypal scale. On one level, this is a love story between two people from different worlds finding something familiar in each other. It's got the drama of starcrossed love, the steadiness of an age-old love, still with the butterflies of new feelings. As a queer love story, the hope in it is even more important.

Crowley and Aziraphale have all the qualities of two characters that are doomed by the narrative, and as much as I love those types of stories, this is a story about hope and it demands a happy ending. After all, if those two idiots can't get a happy ending, what hope do the rest of us have?

All this is to say, that while the final 15 was shattering emotionally, and still is, I never once doubted that all would be well eventually.

The recent accusations against Neil Gaiman came as a shock to me. I admittedly didn't know all that much about him as a person, but I looked up to him as a writer, as I said. The more that is revealed, the more truthful they become. I hoped that these allegations would end up as a big misunderstanding, and I questioned the timing just after David Tennent was attacked online for his support of the lgbtq community. However, the more information about Gaimen comes to light, the less it looks like a mistake.

This leaves us in a difficult position. It is not selfish to worry about the future of Good Omens. It is not foolish to be surprised. It is not naive to feel betrayed. It would be easy to come to the conclusion that 'no one should be trusted,' or to feel that the whole story has been tainted. It's so easy to write off the whole story as 'ethically complicated' so you don't have to examine your feelings critically. It's easy to 'boycott,' something so you don't have to deal with it, as if by not engaging with it, it's not real. I would urge you not to do this. boycotting a story is not as simple as just refusing to buy a product. Stories are part of culture and identity, to a certain extent, the person you are hurting the most is yourself.

There's a reason I spent so long describing why Good Omens is such an incredibly powerful story, because Neil Gaiman's actions negate none of that. The meaning of Good Omens is not dependent on the actions of the author. A truth is still true, even from the mouth of a liar.

Before I loved Good Omens, I loved Harry Potter. Despite JK Rowling's general shittiness, Harry Potter has brought goodness to people's lives, and even though some themes in the story ought to be examined more critically, the joy and comfort those stories brought also cannot be ignored. I was ten when I started reading Harry Potter. I was too young to grasp the homophonic or anti-semetic undertones in the story, and ironically, Harry Potter taught me to by an ally before I even knew I was queer. Before reading Harry Potter, I didn't know what gay was. After hearing Dumbledore was 'gay,' I did a google search and looked up the term in a dictionary. I remember my thoughts being, "you can do that?" and then, "why are people so upset?"

The point of this Harry Potter tangent is to say that while the intentions of the author may influence a story, the author ultimately can't control the effect the story will have on others. Once it is published, a significant part of it no longer belongs to them. They can't control what messages other people find in it, and they lose the right to decide what messages are true or not. If Neil Gaimen were to say today that Good Omens is all a very complicated metaphor for masturbation, that announcement would mean zilch.

Additionally, Neil Gaiman isn't even the only author! You don't have to give him all that credit to start with. Once again, refer to @vidavalor for info on the other amazing people who may have had a bigger hand in writing our favorite moments that we thought.

The Good Omens fandom has taught me not to be ashamed for loving a fictional story. I've been in the Lotr, Star Wars, Star Trek, Harry Potter, Marvel, Sherlock, and countless other fandoms, and I can easily say that Good Omens is the most supportive, the most accepting, the most decent online fan community I've found.

We can hang in there. We've loved Good Omens since the book came out, we've loved Good Omens since before I was born, and we loved it even when we lost Terry Pratchett. We loved Good Omens when we thought there would never be a show, and when we thought one season was all there would be. Good Omens has so many kind and talented people behind it and so much love for it. Neil Gaimen will not sink us now. He doesn't have that much power.

@davidtennantgenderenvy also has a video on this that is very thoughtful.

[leikeliscomet]

Let's Talk About Thasmin

Intro Chapter 1 - Not Something I Usually Do [TW: SA Mentions] Chapter 2 - I Haven't Even Told Anyone, Not Even Myself Chapter 3 & Conclusion - I Wish This Would Go On Forever

Intro

I didn’t know how to write about Thasmin because I didn’t understand what Thasmin was. 

I’m in a weird position with it. I watched the Chibnall era and barely thought about it. I knew about it in series 11, not minding if it became canon or if Ryasmin would instead. I thought Yaz’s attachment to Thirteen seemed stronger than Ryan and Graham’s in series 12 and it was interesting but not that exciting enough for me to go full thassie. I liked the Thasmin bits in series 13 like in Eve of the Daleks and Legend of the Sea Devils (even though I didn’t like the rest of it). But after my rewatch, several things started coming together. I started to see Thirteen and Yaz differently, even seeing parts of them in myself and essentially started looking at the Chibnall era a bit differently as a whole. It’s still not my fave era, but there’s things from it I can appreciate that I didn’t see before.

What interests me about Thasmin isn’t just the ship itself but how the fandom talks about it. Both praise and critiques. Thasmin is the first sapphic ship involving the Doctor, with one sapphic only realising her attraction to women recently, and the other essentially being one of the very few asexual sapphic characters in mainstream TV at the time. Thasmin was fresh with potential but as the essay goes on and from the fandom’s reaction, the potential didn’t fully blossom in the way a lot of fans wanted it to. Whilst I’ve stayed indifferent to it, this ship is somehow so controversial it’s torn the fandom in half, caused many YouTube videos, debates and articles (like this lol) and caused some of the wildest discourse I’ve ever seen throughout my time in the fandom. So this essay is basically an attempt at an asexual, lesbian and possibly bi interpretation of what Thasmin tried to be, how lesbophobia and compulsory sexuality shape the fandom’s ideas about queerness using Thasmin as an example and what Thasmin could've been if handled differently.

I need to make it clear this essay isn’t about proving whether or not Thasmin is queerbait. The discourse since 2022, to me, is unproductive, repetitive and only reinforces misinformation and ignorance towards other queer labels. Regardless of writing quality, Yasmin Khan and the Thirteenth Doctor have confirmed feelings for each other so in my personal opinion, I don’t consider the ship queerbait. I’m aware queerbait has expanded definitions like how the queer character’s storylines and how the queer relationship is carried out but to me, that isn’t proof either. Queerness is a large umbrella term of various identities that are outside of the norm, so not all forms of queerness depend on or can be ‘proven’ solely with a romantic/sexual relationship. These definitions to me exclude queer people whose queerness isn’t dependent on those things or doesn’t involve them at all. Lastly, I don’t believe the conclusion of bad queer representation is that it isn’t queer. It is. It just flopped. 

I’m not writing to prove Thirteen really loved Yaz because as far as I’m concerned, her feelings for Yaz are canon. I’m not writing to prove Thasmin is toxic or morally good because as far as I’m concerned, all ships involving the Doctor, a morally grey character, are all morally grey in their own ways and that would mean also critiquing the ethics of Thoschei, Tenrose, TwelveClara and DoctorRiver. I have no interest in doing this or singling out Thasmin as some unique evil because to me that’s performative. I’m not writing to prove that Yaz is ‘really gay’ or ‘gay enough’ because as far as I’m concerned she is a canon sapphic companion and I don’t believe in gold-star, lesbophobic or biphobic rhetoric to erase any sapphic character’s attraction to women. I’m not writing to prove Thirteen/The Doctor is ‘actually asexual’ because as far as I’m concerned they are, as confirmed by Tennant, Smith, Pertwee, other actors and the official account and I don't care for the validity or close-minded opinions of anti-asexual and ace exclusionist fans, the same way I don’t care for the approval or permission from homophobes, lesbophobes, biphobes, transphobes or any group of queerphobic people to exist.

If you’ve come to this essay for me to critique Thasmin specifically on the basis that the Thirteenth Doctor, Yasmin Khan and/or Thasmin the ship have failed to live up to some arbitrary measure of queerness and that they are un-queer, less queer, fake queer, queerbait or ‘cishet’ then basically… you’re in the wrong place.

With that out of the way, let’s talk Thasmin!

Chapter 1 ->

[masezace]

little off topic for my blog, but i started watching a new show since a friend mentioned it was good and i'd heard positive things about it, so i just wanted to talk about it a little bit (probably never again after this since this isn't a fandom blog, but it's the only one i have rn so idc it's going here)

the show is Jurassic World Camp Cretaceous, and just going on looks alone, despite my love for dinosaurs and the Jurassic Park franchise i never would have considered it. it appears to be very much for kids, and as i'm in my late twenties now i'm not particularly interested in especially kiddy media. however a friend my age enjoyed it and mentioned it has a canon lgbtq+ couple in it among the main characters, so of course i just had to watch it. i had already been hearing that despite its initial appearance and premise, it was surprisingly good for a kids' show, so i had already been curious, but i was even more keen after knowing there were queer characters, and not even the adults, the kids themselves (in a kid's show?!! what a time to be alive), so i finally sat down and watched it.

[spoiler warning, both minor and major, for the rest of this post btw, so continue reading at your own risk if you haven't seen it yet/are still watching]

the show overall

okay so firstly, i am coming at all of this from the perspective of a writer, so my observations are from a technical standpoint more so than just as a fan of the show. and honestly, it really is a well-written show as a whole. is it geared towards kids? definitely. there are plenty of jokes/gags in it that just don't appeal to me as an adult, but beyond that, there was plenty to appreciate as an adult.

the writing is actually phenomenal? there were several points in the series where i just sat back and mulled over the way a scene went, what the thought process behind writing it was like, how well it was executed, and how important it was to the characters and overall plot.

the suspense is spot on, nothing gets dragged out too long, and i will admit there have been a few scenes throughout that actually got me; i jumped! it's actually scarier than i expected a kid show to be, but i'm so glad they went where they did because it really elevated the experience.

the pacing overall is very good, adequately engaging for kids' short attention spans (and us adhd adults 🥲) but not too short either to a point where things felt abrupt or unfinished. plot arcs are well developed and tied up nicely. also, as a bit of a dinosaur nerd, the array of dinosaurs in the show is super broad and satisfying! very fun stuff.

character element

imo the real gem of this show is the character development. honestly it's just *chefs kiss*

the characters grow and change so much and so realistically over the course of the show, it's honestly so much better and more satisfying than the character growth in most adult fiction/media recently.

the growth in ben (who btw was def my favorite character by the end of s1) and kenji in particular were my favorites and, in my personal opinion, the most interesting. the way ben started out anxious, cowardly, and rule abiding to a fault, then grew into a brave, confident, adventurous little pyromaniac gremlin, then had that stint later in the series where he regressed a bit-questioning himself-until eventually ultimately striking a great balance and really coming into himself was just... peak character writing.

kenji started out overconfident, lazy, and overly concerned with money/status. but that arrogant overconfidence and laziness slowly turned into responsibility, and a desire to protect his found family, and the realization that it's the people in your life that really matter most.

honestly what i mentioned only scratches the surface in terms of those two characters, there's certainly more that can be said about them (as well as all the others) but i'm not really in the mood for a deep dive character analysis atm. just trust me tho when i say these characters are so well done and each one of them have arcs that are super satisfying to watch play out.

queer representation

and as for the queer couple? yasmina and sammy are PERFECT. it was so beautiful watching their relationship grow from one-sided to mutual friendship, to loyal devotion, then to love. they were set up incredibly well and incredibly naturally. i have like, no complaints when it comes to them. i don't even know if there's anything i can say that would add to things, they were just a really awesome couple to watch become canon, they're the beautiful and painfully needed representation we all beg for in tv and movies.

shipping, chemistry, and intent

but oh goodness... probably my only real complaint about the entire show would be how benji (ben x kenji) and kenji x brooklyn (kenlyn? brookji? idk and idrc) were handled. because for all that this show did SO much beautifully right, they really screwed the pooch here, sadly.

i'm gonna start by saying that the writing in this show, as with most, is deliberate. what i mean by this is that despite having no clue who it would be because my friend thankfully did not even spoil me as far as the genders of the queer couple, i clocked yas and sammy as the would-be queer couple as early as season one (actually it was between them and benji, but more on that later). i could already see the chemistry, because it was deliberately written in.

shipping is subjective. anyone can ship any character, and in most cases it's pretty easy to see how there could be (romantic) chemistry between fan pairings based on their personalities, their arcs, etc. and that's okay! ships don't even have to have any canon support to be valid, because shipping is for the fandom, and it's for fun (i have a few rarepairs and crack ships across different media that i just love).

but onscreen/written romantic chemistry is a lot less subjective (to clarify, it is subjective whether or not the chemistry is good, but it's not subjective about whether or not it exists). there are literally scenes written with the sole purpose of building the romantic tension and/or chemistry between planned couples (some of which even have absolutely zero plot relevance, which usually is not advised tbh, and most of which are the cliches/tropes you see in literally any romance ever written, some are just disguised a little better than others. but make no mistake, it's all the same set of cliches. there is nothing new under the sun), as well as intentional, key moments within scenes that have other purposes. they are essential to establish romantic pairings.

and typically, the foundations for these couples are laid VERY early on. always within the first or second season (well, at least they are when the writer actually knows what they're doing and has at least a rough plan/outline for the entire series & characters. this is usually a large part of what separates the good chemistry from the poor chemistry. an author who knows who the couples are going to be and has a plan from the beginning to build them up is going to be more successful in creating a believable relationship with good chemistry. one who does not plan, or makes last minute plans will almost certainly fail, and the couple is just going to suck). when the set of characters you're working with are going to stay the same for most or all of the story, you start immediately.

i don't mean to toot my own horn, because i think it's because i'm a writer so i just pick up on narrative patterns very easily, and pretty much always clock the planned couples within the first few episodes of any series, and by the end i am right like 9 times out of 10.

that being said, do you know whose deliberately written chemistry i also clocked in jwcc? ben and kenji's.

kenji and... brooklyn?

no offense to people who like/enjoy kenji and brooklyn, you are free to love them, but the way their romance was written is... quite possibly the weakest point of the show. it felt like they were just trying to appease the upsetto heteros in charge, because there was definitely another het pairing that had a lot more potential than kenji and brooklyn (hello darius x brooklyn aka darilyn, you would have actually made sense because your relationship had amazing buildup and multiple standout scenes from s1 on. dgmw, i love that we got a m/f strong, supportive, purely platonic friendship out of them, i live for those and we really need more of them. but we could have had that with kenji and brooklyn, or darius and sammy, or ben and yas, literally any other pair instead).

kenji and brooklyn as a couple came out of absolutely nowhere. i honestly think they decided to shove them together last minute, and had no actual plan for them until they were working on s4. because their development barely started at the VERY end of s3 (the abruptness of him caring about her being held hostage so much more than literally anyone else in their group despite them having like zero buildup to that point gave me whiplash), but honestly didn't really even become "meaningful" development until s4, over halfway through the series. the two spend the first 3 seasons basically not particularly gaf about each other individually, only as part of the whole group and on an equal level with everyone else. they otherwise have no deliberate narrative foundation. it just starts in s4 with no prior hinting. which makes their development rocky and difficult to believe. the funny thing is their characters literally have dialogue (in s4) trying to draw comparisons/parallels between them to say that they especially have a lot in common and like??? no? they really don't? not any more so than any other two kids in the group. their relationship just, really falls flat.

it was disappointing to see it take such a massive spotlight in the series for almost all of seasons 4 and 5, overshadowing the friendships that have been the focus of the show and should have remained so, to the point where at times it just felt like i was watching some stereotypical het highschool romance. genuinely, it made s4 & 5 more of a drag to get through. yasammy and ben and yas' growing bond (which by the way was so sweet, it had the strongest queer solidarity vibes good lord, i sure wonder why yas chose ben out of everyone to come out to first, hmmm) were some of the few things that kept me invested, otherwise i would have dropped it if it had leaned much farther into becoming the kenlyn show than it already was. especially when it was that pair so much of the focus was given to, even though we had so readily and perfectly available, the pair that could have, should have been: benji. which finally brings me to:

ben and kenji

benji's foundation was laid in s1. their interactions, the situations they found themselves in, were deliberate (on the writers' part). i'm even gonna go out on a limb here and say the pairings were fully established in s1e3, even with parallels between yasammy and benji (sammy clinging to yas and ben clinging to kenji throughout the episode), and darilyn gets the beginning of their development too.

even though they bicker a lot in the beginning, they clearly care about each other? kenji protects/helps ben multiple times, and there are definitely some looks ben gives kenji at times. at the end of s1, the one who seems the most deeply effected over ben's "death," other than darius (understandably since he's the one who failed to save him), was kenji! immediately after it happens, we get two close up shots, darius and brooklyn then yasmina and sammy. after which, we go back to the whole group with kenji in center frame, the focus is intentionally on him. it is only kenji who drops to his knees at the loss, and then we get a close up of just kenji. he was saved for last, and he was alone in frame (tbf bumpy was in frame too, but i'm talking humans here), which implies his feelings are especially important in this moment. that is the reason for solo close ups.

after ben's "death," kenji takes to always wearing ben's fanny pack, and up until bumpy--who ben cares VERY much about--got separated from them, kenji was the one who (however briefly) took over her care, ensuring she got off the monorail with them, and he's extremely distraught, more than pretty much all of them, when they can't find her, and he's last to leave when they decide to accept that ben's gone. even when they do leave, he's distant and distracted and his mind is clearly still on ben.

other than darius, kenji is the only one (if i'm remembering correctly) to mention ben/say his name after they lost him, upset because he was actually trying not to think about him. he has clearly thought about ben, probably a lot, because it's hard not to be reminded constantly when you wear something that belonged to a deceased loved one. and frankly, he appears to be the only one who dwells on him that much.

when ben reappears alive (which btw he found the group again because of kenji's butter knife, hello), the frames literally purposely focus on kenji's reaction. he's the one in the foreground every time they show him and brooklyn in that scene. he is the first one to say ben's name, the first one to go to him and hug him, and the scene takes special care to highlight kenji's strong emotions at ben's reappearance, lingering on his teary face as the focus for a bit even after brooklyn enters the frame to hug ben (because she is not at all an important element in the scene at that moment). just like when ben "died," the way this scene is written and shot HEAVILY suggests that ben holds significant importance to kenji, specifically. because again, the focus here is on kenji and ben almost exclusively, with brooklyn as only an afterthought lol. and quite frankly literally everyone else's reaction to him being alive was pretty lackluster compared to the special attention they gave to kenji on this.

and then in s3 we have the infamous hat scene, where darius and ben are in the limo and ben sees and mentions kenji's sailor hat, looking sad and sounding like... longing?? then directly after we switch to kenji realizing he forgot his hat?? the scene has no real significance tbh other than to draw a connection between ben and kenji. like, it acts as a transition to switch to the pov of the group on the boat, but it was entirely unnecessary? why not just have darius say something about the others and then show them on the boat? if there were no special relationship between ben and kenji, it would have made far more sense if they really wanted it to be ben to say something, that he sees the hat, and sadly says something along the lines of "i hope the others are okay/doing better than we are right now/etc" which implies that the hat made him think of everyone, their whole group. rather than what we got... which very much implies that he was mostly just thinking about kenji 💀 and then kenji thinking about the hat at the same time ben's looking at it and thinking of kenji. like, this is.... a very blatant connection being made by the writing/directing here.

all of that. so many deliberate connections made between ben and kenji, they had a very solid foundation laid for a romance to develop, and by all intents and purposes one already WAS developing according to the show's own subtext. which was why up until s4 obliterated the idea, i was positive the queer couple in the show was either going to be yasammy or benji. it was extremely obvious imo. but as soon we started getting the typical, loud, cliche "we are going to pair off these characters" scenes for kenji and brooklyn, i knew we were getting yasammy and not benji (to be clear, i'm not at all upset about yasammy, they're beautiful and i love how their relationship was done, i wouldn't have had it end any other way for them. but i do personally prefer benji, i just like their personalities and dynamic more. and i feel they had so much potential that got wasted to make way for a far less interesting pairing between kenji and brooklyn. why can't we have 2 queer couples, huh? and if we really needed a minimum of one hetero pairing to appease whoever needed appeasing, darilyn was right there).

but then??? their like entire bond just gets dropped (honestly ben himself gets pretty heavily sidelined for almost all of the last two seasons, which is criminal imo). mostly so that a rushed kenji x brooklyn can be established. like there are still a few small moments here and there in early s4, and one episode in s5 (ep 10), but from early s4 till pretty much the end of the series we hardly see them have any meaningful conversations or interactions, meanwhile literally every other combo in the group does.

it's so weird? why build up benji so deliberately over the course of multiple seasons just to like, fully discard it for a pairing with far less chemistry, even after the chemistry-building scenes they shared, some of which literally had no other purpose than to affirm their connection? even though they were very sparse, the moments benji had were just so blatant (kenji leaps into the rock crevice right onto the back of a saber tooth to save ben?!!?? like he literally was just willing to exchange his life for him like that?? he basically says that he wasn't really thinking, he just did it. so he moved out of what, emotional instinct, that's what we're meant to intuit from that series of events? implying that he specifically has strong emotion and doesn't think things through when it comes to ben? because he doesn't do that kinda stuff for any of the others in the group! even better, this parallels when sammy jumped on the nothosaurus to save yasmina. and then the way benji look at each other after it's over??? hello??? and then how kenji pulls both brooklyn and ben in for that hug a couple minutes later... side eyeing the writers for that choice. they knew what they were doing there and they were evil for it). i just can't see any reason to have dropped them like they were, after all the development they shared for 3 seasons. confounding. biggest disappointment of the series.

i know this probably reads to some as just "wahh, my ship didn't become canon" nonsense. but that's not why i'm bugged. this wasn't just a ship i liked and wanted canon despite no actual narrative support, as most ships tend to be. this ship did have narrative support. there was intent behind many of their scenes together, lingering looks and little things that matter narratively and are always used to signify a stronger/special connection. and it led nowhere, for no good reason. that bothers me. writing that implies and promises something, but never delivers on it. like a person who never finishes their sentences (think Dr McPhee from Night at the Museum). ultimately it's not a HUGE deal or anything, at the end of the day it's just a ship and just a kids' show. but as a writer, it's just irritating to see something like that be done. what can i say 🤷

conclusion

even despite the wasted potential between certain pairings, and even though i do think the first three seasons were superior to the last two, overall i really enjoyed the show, and for what it was, it was really well-made. the overarching focus was of course on found family and friendship before anything else, which i absolutely love, and it was masterfully done. out of 6 kids, all of them had at least one or two meaningful bonding moments one-on-one with another in the group, so every possible combination had their moment to build strong, believable friendships with each other. i'm just so surprised by how good it was as a whole honestly, good enough to binge over the course of a week. i will happily recommend jwcc to anyone willing to give it a watch regardless of age, because i definitely think there's no age limit for a good story, no matter the medium it's told in. :)

[everythingendsbutcomicsr4ever]

((This originally comes as my response to someone saying that ppl don’t like The Sun and The Star because it’s a middle school book and we were expecting the series to grow along with us.))

Valid point I keep finding BUT I recently read the PJO series again in preparation for TSATS and those books still slap!! They’re so good even tho I’m reading them as an adult even though they're meant for kids. (Also I recently read ToA because of course I’m gonna keep reading Rick’s middle school books until the day I die or they stop coming out lol. And that series while more goofy at points I still really liked) I also read one of Mark Oshiro's other books in prep for this book because I was excited for The Sun and Star to be released and I just COULD NOT get through it 😭 the writing was just giving me the ick and the characters where all kind of samie like that sassy talking wit. Which was a bummer because I liked the premise of the book “Anger is a Gift”, which was about underfunded schools mainly facing ppl of color and immigrants which leads to the school-to-prison pipeline because of the defunct way America funds public schools that keeps the poor poor and the rich getting richer & it was ACAB & had a lot of queer representation & etc. So I thought I’d really like it but I just couldn’t get through it because of the writing and I noticed this same writing style showing up in TSATS. Just because it’s for kids doesn’t excuse it from being bad. Like early Pixar and Studio Ghibli is still so good to watch back again and my 50+ yrs old parents like it. Book examples would be Harry Potter (screw JK Rowling tho fr) & the The Little Prince

Not to bash on ppl who say this is the main reason ppl don’t like the book but it feels like a straw man argument to say that the books not growing with us is the main reason ppl didnt like it. All tho I’m sure ppl have argued this but that is definitely their fault because Rick is staying in middle-grade fiction forever like that’s his thing! Why would ppl expect different 🤣 You think he wants to write a sex scene?! LMAO

(Here’s my review, it’s unhinged and not great because I should be doing productive stuff but am distracted until I can at least write down some of my thoughts on my disappointing experience)

Here are some things I didn’t like about it from a piece of art standpoint:

The pacing was bad

This book was filled with the first thing they teach you about writing which is: SHOW don’t TELL

It made me not ship Solangelo surprisingly like how??! I used to love Solangelo but I think this mainly is because of the collective consciousness of the fandom and because we wanted Nico to find happiness with someone. But if you really look back on their moments canonically from the books Will is a background character (who honestly kind of gaslights Nico by invalidating that ppl treated him differently as a son of Hades and that he didn't feel welcome at camp) and they kind of have a quick meet cute in the last book of The Last Olympian. They get together without us seeing their developing relationship and we now know they’re dating in The Trials of Apollo where we see them briefly in the first book and then more so in the last book. Honestly, this canonically alone doesn’t give me enough information or examples to really know or care about their relationship in comparison to Percy and Annabeth who we get to see develop. So TSATS just kind of felt hollow to me because I’m supposed to believe they’d die for each other but I DONT KNOW THE POWER OF THEIR LOVE?? This could just be a first love fling type thing like I was never shown the depth of their romance just told constantly in the book how much they love each other so it just felt kind of empty and emotionally unsatisfying to me.

Solangelo's relationship has always been in the background and the fans are what really made it cause we love Nico and want him to be happy. So when Will and Nico are fighting in this book all I can think is that this is just their relationship period.

So the reason it made me not like Solangelo was because Tarturus was supposed to bring out the worst in them and strain their relationship but, like, I haven’t really seen much of their relationship so I don’t have a “control group” to base this off of. So Will just seemed rude when he was so mean about Nico’s underworld home and about Nico's darkness which I also didn’t understand wtf he was talking about because Nico has killed just as many monsters as other campers and what else was his darknes based off of. cause he’s emo/goth?? Cause he can raise the dead?? Like guys we’ve discussed this just because a character wears black doesn't automatically make them the bad guy. I honestly thought Will just thought that was hot and they’d have that normie x alt relationship dynamic (that meme of: My hot witch wife. Me doing whatever she wants) I thought THAT was Solangelo not Will constantly trying to bring this light side to him and trying to change him. I agree that Nico needs help w his trauma and PTSD and things like that but this felt like if someone tried to “cure” a goth person, like actually screw you

I thought Will was supposed to look like a normie but be secretly a freak (in a good way lol) / goth interest. Cause this is meee I thought I was like Will as someone who looks like a normie and has a sunny disposition but I have a lot of alt/goth interests and I would let an alt girlie step all over me tbh lol. So does he like Nico for who he is or not?!

This is more in line w what I thought their relationship was like lol:

The flashbacks and forwards I thought were ok even if they took you out of the story a bit but this device is supposed to be used for an IMPORTANT event not just as a way to quickly give context to their relationship and when we got to the scene this was taking place in I was like that’s it?? He what? fell down and is suffering from sun withdrawals and this is the book's big moment to justify jarring flashback scenes?

Mark Oshiro is not a fantasy adventure or horror writer and it shows. Maybe it’s just me but their depiction of Tarturus and the nightmare and the journey were just not up to snuff with good horror and fantasy books I’ve read. (And if your gonna say something about how it’s for kids then I raise you the book series “Goosbumps”) So as a genre in itself, it was just disappointing. It was mainly a relationship guidebook book but I didn’t really like that or feel like it was done well, It felt lectury and also idk if that's the genre middle schoolers really like?? 😅

It had too many references which really dates a book, A lot of professional writers say not to use too much slang or modernreferences (unless you’re trying to make a book expressly about a time period) because it really dates a book and doesn’t make a story feel timeless for future generations if you use too many references (this doesn’t include political novels tho which are very much based in that time when the events happening) Anyways for future writers keep this in mind, you don't need to keep in touch with the youth through urban dictionary you can just write about the emotions of being young or whatever. If you’ve tried to read a comic book aimed at teens from the 50s like I have you’ll realise how funny that is.

(Also the carebear reference that I didn’t even understand and I watched carebear as a kid & Lil Nas video which if this was written for kids that music video feels a bit inappropriate for them 😂 it had a reference both too old and too young for middle schoolers AND how in the world would 1930s born, dropped out of elementary school, can’t use the internet or phones half blood, NICO DI ANGELO know these references???)

The writings giving:

Bad alt representation. (This is my most out-of-pocket opinionated bullet point rant so if you don't agree that’s a-okay :D ) This could be a whole post in itself but although I know ppl joke about Nico as the Emo kid I would really like to get into how Nico is actually, or it would be cool, as having some goth subculture inclinations. And ppl probably think of Trad Goths with the whole makeup and teased hair look but it’s mainly a music-based subculture and/or it just has a different idealogy around the ideas of death and what is deemed beautiful while most ppl see it as ugly. (Like listen to “Gallows Dance” or the Bauhaus's “Bela Lugosi’s Dead” & “The Passion of Lovers”, to name songs off the top of my head) This bullet point is definitely MY OPINION and doesn’t contribute exactly to the book being bad but aren’t those songs the vibe of an underworld kid like Nico?? Embracing the darkness and dancing in graveyard vibes fr!! Anyways most alt subcultures and especially emo are seen as a phase in life that you grow out of and then become normal. This book just really gives the energy of being written by a normie who would be confused by the choices of alt ppl and just doesn’t get it because it’s not their personal interest, which isn’t exactly bad even tho I want more philosophy from Nico on the chillness and acceptance of death (all tho greek mythologies view on the afterlife sucks fr and THAT is a whole other post haha) So this isn’t exactly a problem BUT what gives me the ick is WILL NOT ACCEPTING THESE THINGS LIKE SIR STOP BASHING YOUR BOYFRIENDS LIFE!! Will asking Persephonee, “How do you love someone from the underworld” SHUT UP!! 😤

Will was useless and I know what they were trying to go for but if I had a girlfriend (oh I’m a lesbian btw just in case ppl think I’m going harder on this book more than the other books because I’m homophobic bruh I swear I’m not I’m only disappointed in the art itself, NOT the representation which I actually liked) and if I was super good at fighting and they weren’t, I’m sorry but I wouldn’t take them BECAUSE of my love for them. If they were going to be useless on a mission of such life-threatening danger and importance I WOULD NOT TAKE THEM OUT OF KINDNESS. Like skills in medicine and art and music are great and there’s of course nothing wrong w not being a badass fighter (lmao this is me and most readers) but then DONT GO TO SUPER HELL!!! Especially if you have something that makes you more pathetic than being a normal human in Tarturus, his suffering from no sunlight is out of pocket and just makes the story draggg and makes him seem boring and the story more boring. I know they were trying to go for a fish out of water storyline and roll reversal but I think it wasn’t done well enough and overall hurt the story

Also, I’ve heard ppl talk about how it would have been nice to have a book focus on their relationship while at Camp Half-Blood. Like maybe it takes place pre Jason's death and we can just see them living at camp. It’d be chill and we can actually see them as a couple & It would give the energy of readers wanting to go to camp half-blood again like how everyone wanted to go to Hogwarts. Cause we haven’t seen the camp as a fun home since the very early PJO books ;-; (this is just a fun idea I like and I think would have been more manageable for an author but this is FR my opinion on a fun book idea i’d like to read) ALSO this would have been so nostalgic for the older readers who have been here since middle school gobbling up this universe 😌

I know ppl get mad at ppl making fun of Will for being pathetic in tarturous. As saying he’s a child and no one can be happy and sunny and doing well 24/7 which is valid but that’s not really my argument. I like watching characters put in situations where we watch them bend against what we thought they were when put in a hard situation (the masochist in me lol jkjjk). But this I think didn’t work for me because as I’ve said before he’s mainly a background character at the end of one book thrown together with Nico and we as a fandom have mainly made him up. Also, Tarturus was just not as scary or adventure-filled as like any of the other missions from previous PJO books, It didn’t feel as trauma-inducing as everyone in the series tried to explain it as. (again show not tell from the book) Also, I would have liked to have seen Will cool at least once or one reason for me to like him with Nico but I saw him as pretty bland as a character

The writing style felt bad to me because of the show don’t tell part for example telling as “it made him sad and traumatized” when showing would be, you know, actually showing the scenes and this book just felt like 80% telling what they were feeling instead of letting the reader feel the emotions of the scene for themselves

I think that’s another thing I really didn’t like related to the Show Don't Tell. And another hallmark of bad writing was this book was really telling the audience how to feel instead of allowing the story to be powerful enough to do that for itself. This book follows a trend I’ve seen a lot in TV shows where everything kind of feels like detached irony from being on Twitter where you hear everyone’s opinions so the story is written as a wink and a nod like we know what we’re doing and we know what your thinking and how twitter will react to it. Like it’s hard to describe this trend I’ve mainly seen in TV shows and movies recently which always gives me the ick cause it doesn’t feel funny it feels like I’m in a response piece that is breaking the fourth wall and reminds me that I’m in reality watching or reading something instead of actually feeling like I’m in the story. It’s like pseudo-wittiness or something. Tell me if you guys feel this way about some modern tv shows or books, I can't be alone please 😭!!

The stupid toast scene at the end lol The book is like: Do you get it? Did you get it?? They’re opposites! And they attract!! We did the trope you guys!! Also, the stupid Darth Vader scene to start off the book 💀

This whole book made me cringe where I had to constantly get up walk around and lie on the floor before I could continue, only to constantly repeat the cycle 😅

Anyway, idk how to end this review/rant I just had such strong emotions I had to get out probably because I was so excited for this book to come out for like over a year and got back into PJO for a bit and read some of Mark Oshiro’s books and greek mythology and stuff, so I think it wasn’t just me reading any random bad book it disappointed me more that it was poor quality because I wanted to love it so much.

It did have some actually good parts, the troglodytes were cute … I can’t remember the other stuff but it was there I swear lol! If you enjoyed it I’m happy for you! Don’t let me ruin a book you like, you deserve to feel joy 😘💐

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hey. I originally sent this ask to virginia bc a lot of what i see usually comes from her asks, but it is also relevant to your s2 rant so wanted to ask you this too. I don’t understand what you mean by the show people are “making up in their heads”. I watched the show and then went online which was a mistake since a lot of book content was being revealed to me, so I read a couple of the books for context. Still I disagree with a lot of the takes I have seen. How is lestat being “big bad patriarchal” something that people are making up in their heads? Why is it that when the vamps are having good moments we can agree “that they are married!” and “that’s their daughter!” but when it’s bad moments all of a sudden it’s “they’re vampires so it’s not domestic abuse and lestat is not big bad patriarchal”? I understand that a lot will be revisited in s2, but s1 is Louis’ account of things and what he is showing us is very much big bad lestat so idk how that can be something people are making up in their heads. I’ve noticed that while a lot of the speculation for s2 draws from the books (obvi), they don’t take into consideration that some things just don’t work anymore because of the change in the level of violence shown, and bc these characters are Black! Like Louis or Claudia lying about their abuse would be incredibly problematic, so would a revisit of Lily showing that she’s shady/a villain. (And i feel like you agree with this so idk why you say you’ll block ppl who say this). I understand where the theories are coming from, but having these things play out would actually be racist and calling it bad writing if it happened would be very valid criticism! It’s very important to be critical of these things even if it comes from an otherwise very good show!

I’ve also seen stuff about making fun of people complaining that Assad and Jacob are not being paired together, when that is also a valid complaint/want (and I’m positive they’ll be paired together more as they keep promoting s2). I’m excited for loumand even after reading some of the books and knowing that Loustat (or just lestat) is the center of the VC, but the second half of book iwtv definitely centers Loumand, and even before reading the books my expectation was still a centering of those two characters. Don’t get me wrong I am a huge jam reiderson fanatic (literally started watching the show bc I saw that trivia with jam reiderson video) but I am also excited to see Jassad!!! Another incredibly important reason that people are excited for this pairing is of course that they are a queer interracial poc couple!! In fantasy no less!! So it’s understandable that people (myself included if you couldn’t tell lol) would be excited to see them together outside the show as well!! And making fun of them looking forward to it is like not great. So far the stuff ive seen ab press pairing is ppl being eager to see Jassad, but over here it reads as “haha no jassad we told you so” which is so incredibly weird. Again, I’m trying not to come off as like aggressive, and I get that being accused of being racist is obviously not a great thing to receive, but I do think that a refusal to examine or question why people think certain decisions would be racist is also not great.

I feel like a lot of the times when fans are pointing out the racism in the fandom and stuff, it gets taken as them being hateful and aggressive etc etc, but like idk it’s hard to be nice when you see things that are clearly so problematic and it gets glossed over in the fandom. Idk if you’ll answer this but I just thought it was important to share.

Okay, you know, I'll bite. Once.

"Making fun of people is not great". "being accused of being racist is obviously not a great thing to receive, but I do think that a refusal to examine or question why people think certain decisions would be racist is also not great"

"I’ve noticed that while a lot of the speculation for s2 draws from the books (obvi), they don’t take into consideration that some things just don’t work anymore because of the change in the level of violence shown, and bc these characters are Black! Like Louis or Claudia lying about their abuse would be incredibly problematic, so would a revisit of Lily showing that she’s shady/a villain."

Let's examine these, shall we.

Just because Louis and Claudia are black now, they are NOT different characters. If you had read my rant, and listened to the sources, read the interviews, then you would KNOW that. You would know that JACOB (and Bailey) have said that. LITERALLY.

A certain part of the fandom keeps saying this, but that is just... not it. And I get where it's coming from! But they already confirmed that the characters are still the book characters. And the people (including you?) who keep worrying that point just don't want to acknowledge their stance being wrong.

But that is not something that >I< am making up.

Which, in turn, negates your argument.

Also, everything shown in s1 will be put into context in s2, as already said - also something I more than laid out in the rant. That includes the "violence". Again, that's been said.

When the racial changes became clear for Louis and Armand (and Claudia) some of the book fans winced, NOT BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE ITSELF, but because you know, we KNOW what's coming.

All the show fans now claiming Lestat was sooo bad for Louis... oh you haven't seen Armand. Armand will literally gaslight Louis, make him do things against his will (things that will have Louis say he lost the last of his humanity!), isolate him by KILLING CLAUDIA and the coven (intentionally! so he can have him to himself!), and spell-bind him, repeatedly. Armand will chop off Claudia's head and sew it onto another's body to see what happens. And then send her into the sun, to burn.

He will also, as has already been made clear now, "tinker" with Louis' memories.

You think that's cute?! Wholesome? Because they're POC now? Oh sweetie. This show will pull the rug out from under you. And that is not meant as belittling. These things will happen. They dialed up the (absolutely existing) themes to 10 in s1, they will do so once more in s2.

And lastly, re the fun, and being accused of things.

Go and read through the comments of "Laden as the sea". Read what I wrote in the notes, and why, and then what people threw at me. Come on, go ahead. It's a ride. I did not delete ONE comment. None. They're all there. Some of the commenters have edited their comments, so the still-up one is not the one they initially wrote, but I get mails for all comments, so... I've read them.

And I'm not even talking about the shit here.

Oh, and I didn't say that the patriarchal and abuse themes were made up. Which you would also know if you had actually read my rant.

And, again, if you had really read what I've written, you would know that I wrote this: if I‘m going to see anyone scream “bad writing“ or “Louis being made a liar or the memories revisited/changed is racism“ when the changes will hit I‘m just gonna block you.

And that... has nothing to do with the problematic things that might arise from the revisits, because of course there are many traps there to consider, because of the racial change. That I agree with.

But it's not bad writing, or racism, if and when these things happen.

It's just not what some people want to happen. And that is what I mean with the "story made up in their heads".

If you really read the books, then you would know what's coming.

Because this show is made by book fans. It might be good to remember that.

[fiercynn]

bad buddy fandom getting-to-know-you meme!

since there are both recent newcomers to bbs fandom and people like me who are new to bbs tumblr, i thought i'd create a getting-to-know-you meme for people to introduce themselves if they want! all questions are optional

note: i consider "fanworks" to pretty much everything people create related to a fandom, including but not limited to meta/analysis/discussion, gifs, fanvids/edits/fancams, filk, fanart, fanfic, fan food, fan crafts, etc. please include this note with the meme unless you have a different definition!

name and whatever you want to share about yourself

hi i'm deepa! i'm indian-american, in my 30s, queer, and agender – please use my name (either deepa or fiercynn is fine) instead of pronouns when referring to me!

when did you watch bad buddy/join the fandom?

i watched the whole show in the course of about 36 hours just about two weeks after the finale had aired, in february 2022! i joined bbs fandom on twitter soon after and have been there ever since, but i’ve only really been interacting on tumblr in the last few months

favorite ship(s)

patpran and inkpa…i'm a traditionalist ig lol

favorite character(s)

it’s so hard to choose but i think it has to be pran! i love his pining and his cockiness and his anxiety and his kindness and his grumpy faces. really channeling pat right now aren’t i

favorite episode(s)

episode 5 for obvious reasons; my second-favorite is a tie between episode 3 and episode 8 i think

favorite scene(s)

rooftop kiss, episode 3 bus stop scene, episode 8 backstage apology scene, and episode 9 picnic bench hand-holding scene

one thing you would change about the show if you could

LET INKPA KISS GDI

what are your some of your favorite fanworks made by other people?

ughhhhhh SO HARD TO CHOOSE and i think i'll do a longer rec list sometime but here are some of the earliest fanworks i engaged with that really set the stage for how i think about bbs

dynamic (fic, patpran) by riddles2 on ao3: one of the first fics i read in the fandom, it’s pat’s pov through episode 5 and it’s absolutely seminal imo

international love song (fanart/animation, patpran) by @architectxengineer: science is one of those incredibly multitalented people who writes, makes fanart, and animates?? among other things??? and this animation is sooooooo gorgeous and makes my heart absolutely melt

same page (vid, patpran) by dkyth73 on youtube: such a good fanvid of the show that p’aof himself tweeted about it!!!!

(if you create fanworks) what are your favorite fanworks that you’ve made?

traffic was slow for the crash years (fic, patpran): gotta plug my baby, right? this is my patpran fake dating au which is 80k words and was so fun to create!

we both know you’re my only dream (fic, patpran): on the other end of the length spectrum, this 1k fic is one of my favorite things i've written ever

just being friendly (vid, patpran) co-vidded with @scribescribe: yes i know this is an msp song but we made the vid before msp aired!! i think it’s very cute hehe

a song that makes you think of bbs (the ones in the show don’t count lol)

since “just being friendly” is already obvious from me and scribe making a vid to it lol, i'm going to say “keeping tabs” by niki, which is extremely pran-coded. like. look at the lyrics. doesn't it seem like it was written to be about pran’s feelings at boarding school, where he misses pat desperately and hopes pat’s thinking of him but is also trying to convince himself that pat’s forgotten him and that everything pran wanted from him was just a delusion on his part. PRAN 😭 😭 😭

idk anything else you want us to know?

i have opinions about pran’s sweaters

okay i'm literally going to tag all of my tumblr mutuals that i think are still in the fandom (if i missed anyone sorry!!), but also if you want to do the meme consider yourself tagged! please don’t let this flop lol 🤞🏽

@citystoryscapes @nicolasechs @architectxengineer @mahuhumaling @manogirl @galauvant @miscellar @monamay @dancing-out-in-space @melto @incandescentflower @loveongsa @dimplesandfierceeyes @geonbaeeee @faillen @cinnamonseadragon @inkpaa @yourunwiththewolves @prany @pranpats @teesemomma @iathefurrr @inventedfangirling @sharingfandoms @lamonnaie @maychild @thegayneurodivergentagenda @mistergreaves @dudeyuri @nyttvera @thecriers @threezoz @wontbotherrn @not0nmain

[lonelyroommp3]

☕️ Musical from the last 5 years (lol) that i should listen to

my god *i* don't even really listen to many musicals from the last five years because i sort of stopped paying attention after like 2019 when the MT fandom on here died down considerably. yes i work in musical theatre. don't look at me

okay here are some of my suggestions in no particular order based on shows i've actually managed to listen to and enjoy

sing street - one of the great theatrical casualties of covid - the cast literally moved into the theatre on the day the broadway shutdown started and the subsequently postponed bway transfer has just never materialised. they did have an out of town production in 2022 though :)) anyway, love this album, one of the few MT cast recordings that makes it onto my general listening playlists because several of the songs also work really well as standalone pop tunes

& juliet - if you just want to have a silly fun time listening to a jukebox musical this is thee one. bonkers little plot but it's packed with bangers throughout and repurposes its pop soundtrack into a musical theatre context in ways that range from unexpectedly genius (turning britney's "i'm not a girl, not yet a woman" into a nonbinary anthem) to really stupid in the funniest way possible (an entire character is named just to set up a *NSYNC joke)

kimberley akimbo - 2023 best musical winner, a solid example of the typical contemporary musical theatre sound which handily fulfills both the niche of "i enjoy shows like dear evan hansen and want another emotional teen story" and "i want more good meaty lead roles for older actresses"

a strange loop - 2022 best musical winner, a meta show about a fat black queer man who works as a theatre usher and is writing a musical about a fat black queer man writing a musical. filled with commentary about race and sexuality, definitely one for if you want your musicals to be thought & discussion provoking

shows i've not personally listened to for whatever reason but i've heard good things

operation mincemeat - i've heard nothing but hype about this show to the point where it's actually put me off seeing it. so of course i am perpetuating the cycle by recommending it to you without ever having listened to it

standing at the sky's edge - another west end show that i have heard so many good things about and not got around to seeing. so here you go. blind rec. fuck it

octet - i kind of went off dave malloy entirely around 2018 through zero fault of his own, god bless him, just because many of his fans were still being so annoying about the 2017 tonys. but i've heard good things about this show and maybe i need to actually get over myself and give it a listen

message for the masses if i didn't include your fave show or included something i hate it's because it's 10pm and i wanted to answer this quickly so i just skimmed wikipedia for musicals from 2019-2024 and thought oh yeah i know enough about that one to talk about it. i will have forgotten things. don't @ me please i beg you

[itsclydebitches]

I’ve recently joined the Twitter RWBY fandom(a horrible choice, really) and a lot of them hold this regard that Ironwood being a Military Man aswell as Atlas Academy being a pipeline to the Military being foreshadowing and, I can’t really understand that? No where in the show is any of that implied as bad. I was thinking about it a little bit and came to the inclusion that despite Remnant’s worldbuilding calling for a positive outlook on the military, because this is an American anime mostly 1/2

I've thought the same for awhile now, anon. RWBY, for all its many pitfalls, is trying to be a progressive show and that includes taking a hard, critical stance against military might—an argument that, yes, is very much born of America's history. I'm not going to turn this ask into a history lesson (one I'm by no means an expert on anyway), but suffice to say there's indeed a lot to criticize and thus it's no surprise that the queer friendly, unity-focused, American show about an individual "simple soul" would want to paint militarism in a negative light.

Personally, I've got no problem with that thesis. That's actually a show that I would love to watch. Thus, the problem is not RWBY taking a hard stance against a fictional military, it's—as you say—its failure to convey why Remnant's military is worthy of criticism. The work is simply not there. I could write you a novel-length meta on all the ways RWBY dropped the ball in that regard, starting with the world building question of, "Why is a military seen as oppressive when they exist to fight souless monsters instead of other people?" through "Not a single detail in RWBY implies that people are coerced, manipulated, or left behind once they align themselves with the military," circling around, "You spent six Volumes writing Ironwood as a flawed hero, gave us a few episodes as a misguided antagonist, and then a few hours in-world as a villain," straight on through to, "The group coming upon Atlas' battleships is meant to exist as a stand-alone argument of evilness—look at what Ironwood has done in the name of safety!—which is a problem all on its own, but the same image of battleships hovering over Vacuo is meant to exist as a stand-alone argument of celebratory unity and do you see how that doesn't work?"

RWBY wanted to write an anti-military story. They did not write an anti-military story until Volume 8, by which time it was WAY too late to undermine all the positive implications and unanswered questions we'd gotten. However, many viewers—particularly American viewers—picked up on those not-so-subtle hints (hi there, cartoon Ironwood) and ran backwards with the argument, ignoring everything that didn't support it in previous Volumes, or, in a few extreme cases, outright lying about what happened in the show until portions of the fandom heard it often enough that they started misremembering things. Then they passed those simplistic, inaccurate readings on, all of which is exacerbated by many viewers' real feelings towards the military and the knee-jerk assumptions they have if others appear to be promoting it. Even if "promoting it" just means saying something like, "This fictional character in this radically different fantasy world maybe isn't pure evil because the show forgot to establish why creating the means to destroy the literal non-metaphorical monsters is a bad thing."

Which is why it's so difficult to discuss RWBY's failure in this regard because the fan at the other end of the conversation has to acknowledge the nuance of, "Yes, I personally agree with this thesis, but it's a thesis that doesn't exist in RWBY. I'm not arguing that dictators are good, actually, I'm arguing that Ironwood never was one." The moment you talk about anything related to Atlas, Ironwood, their military, etc. and by extension start discussing the ways in which the show canonically wrote those all these as positives in Volumes 1-7, or at the worst flawed necessities, many fans simply jump to, "Oh, so you're okay with Ironwood shooting minorities? Got it." Most in RWDE (that I've come across, anyway) are discussing the depiction of the military within the show—what actually wound up on screen, regardless of the writers' intentions and regardless of our own, irl politics. In contrast, most non-RWDE fans are discussing what the military is meant to represent irl, despite the fact that this representation fails on nearly every level and, as a result, doesn't really exist. That's a huge disconnect that I doubt the fandom will ever get past, especially when these subjects hit close to home for so many and, frankly, it's far easier to toss out accusations that imply a real-life failing than it is to acknowledge that a favorite show is not only badly written, but thoroughly bungled a subject you deeply care about. (Insert the same problem with RWBY's queer rep here.)