#really some of you need to BE in the reference poses to experience some of the things you draw
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Sometimes I see fanart. And KNOW. that yall have never cuddled or napped with someone.
Some of yall. No matter how good the rest of the art is. Don't understand that character A's arm will need amputated by the end of that nap and character B's ribs are going to be sore for a week.
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wonderjanga · 9 months ago
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Billy’s Homelessness
Being a homeless kid has its perks, Billy supposes. He’s picked up tips and tricks from other kids and even adults during his time. It’s practically second nature to him at this point. Only thing is, the fact that it’s second nature in the first place is what can come back to bite him in the future.
Like lock picking. He’s good at it, and it’s not something he’s particularly proud of, but it’s helped him when he’s needed it most. He’s gotten shelter from blizzards, sleet, and rain with this skill. That’s why when Billy, Flash, GL, and Supes got locked in an all yellow room with red sun lamps and a locked door.
Supes, GL, and Flash: *all discussing how to get out* Marvel: *leans down in front of the keyhole of the door*
Supes: “Alright Flash, vibrate through the door-”
Marvel: “Done!” *opens door*
*silence*
GL: “How’d you do that?”
Marvel: “I picked the lock.” *walks out and immediately gets shot in the face by one of the guards*
Then there’s pickpocketing. He’s also unfortunately good at this. Freddy says he’s better though. Billy isn’t about to make a contest out of it. Batman found out about this particular talent when both him and Billy went undercover for a mission to uncover the scheme of some foreign politician.
Batman: *as Bruce Wayne* “That’s the man.” *subtly gestures to him*
Marvel: “Him? Okay… What do you wanna do?”
Batman: “First, we need to properly identify-”
Marvel: “Oh, okay.” *walks over to the man, passes him, then comes back to Bruce* “Here.” *places the man’s wallet in Bruce’s hand*
Batman: “…that he was involved in the crimes.”
Marvel: “Oh.”
*silence*
Batman: *opens the wallet anyways and starts looking through it*
Marvel: “Do you want me to put it back?”
Batman: *puts one finger up to Marvel’s face while he continues looking through the wallet*
Marvel: *deflates slightly* “Oh, okay.”
Batman: *pulls out a clue from the wallet* “Put this back, chum.”
Marvel: *scurries off to put the wallet back*
Bruce then heavily lamented how Marvel knew how to pickpocket so well. Cause the thing is, Marvel’s like six feet tall. (Had to make him a little shorter guys. My bad.) A man like that had no business doing that so well in a bright red sweater and yellow hat.
Then, there’s the avoiding cops. He rarely sticks around for them. He does not mess with them. He’s had too many bad experiences as Billy for it to translate well to Marvel. Whenever one tries to talk to him, he’ll say the bare minimum as politely as he can and fly off. Sometimes, if he knows it’s a cop who’s harsher on the homeless than most, he’ll act polite(passive aggressive) and then give them a nice, firm(crushing) handshake. One such incident was when a cop asked for a photo:
Cop A and Marvel: *posing for a photo by shaking hands*
Marvel: *smiling at the camera, his grip tightening on the hand*
Cop A: *awkward laugh* “That’s a tight grip you got there, Captain.”
Marvel: *lightens his grip, looking down to Cop A’s name tag: Richard* (This isn’t Nightwing guys) “My bad, dick.”
Cop A: “Excuse me?”
Marvel: “Oh no no no, not like “dick,” Dick.” *grip tightens again* “Not like some spineless, lowlife piece of shit from the bottom of my boot that gets scraped off onto a bigger pile of shit, kind of dick.” *smiles the whole time as he speaks* “No, like your name, officer, Dick.”
Cop A: “I prefer Richard.”
Cop B: *takes photo*
Also, anybody who gets that reference gets a kiss. Man or woman. It doesn’t matter. I don’t make the rules. By the way, someone definitely recorded that entire interaction and #passiveaggressivecap ended up trending on twitter.
Then, there’s the time Supes came over to Fawcett to hang out. They were chilling on a rooftop talking when down below they both saw a teenager steal food from a seller.
Supes: *doesn’t see Marvel move* “Aren’t you gonna stop that kid?”
Marvel: “Uh… no. He’s homeless. He clearly needs it more than we do.”
Supes: *blinks rapidly but then remembers he’s not in Metropolis and can’t really tell Marvel how to run his city* “Okay then.”
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kidicaruslover911 · 3 months ago
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a/n: I put wife/gf on these women depending on how much I personally like them and on some it’s just fitting for the situation but girl feel free to imagine whatever you want 😭
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gf!vi who, whenever you’re outside and need to leave for a second or have to take care of something even if minor, insists on holding your purse for you often trying to figure out how to not look like she just stole it, gf!vi who blows air into your ear to tease you and gf!vi who gets all proud and won't stop smiling whenever a kid swoons over how pretty you are- eyes turning soft yet envious green as soon as it's followed with an innocent marriage proposal, because hey! so that's not how things work; sorry, she has to inform the child that this lady right here, is taken. believe it :p
gf!sevika who is sick and tired of your need to be hyper independent (she understands dw) and who literally has no idea how she’s supposed to be courting you if you won’t even let her hold the door for you. “FREE YOU” (she will) she screams, begs and prays internally every single day, trying to ease you into letting her handle things for you and gf!sevika who’s trying to make you understand that she truly isn’t your enemy and quite literally is on her hands and knees, ready to dote to your every need 24/7 (when she can)
gf!mel who will literally be letting you in on all her products and shares them with you, gf!mel who will also be applying lotion and oils onto your skin to have you radiating just as much as her if not even more. plus she has you smelling like heaven so- gf!mel who will be (if you have any) retwisting your locs whenever it is needed and gf!mel who loves to go jewelry thrifting with you and will apply your lip combo for you
gf!lest who affectionately refers to you as her miss/lady, many times also when conversing with others, gf!lest who you share cigarette kisses with, gf!lest who gently scratches your back with her long onyx colored nails and gf!lest who will trace and kiss all over your moles, pointing out how you must’ve had an indubitably fierce and fiery lover in a past life, joking about how she’ll have to kiss you all the more for you to be covered in thousands of them in a next lifetime…
wife!ambessa whose silver kinky locks you love to comb through lovingly whenever she’s getting ready for the day, wife!ambessa who has you putting on a fashion show for her whenever she’s bought you another few tons worth of clothes, wife!ambessa who keeps a leg between your thighs when the two of you share a bed- not always in a sexual manner, it’s simply a habit of hers, it's comfortable and your legs often end up tangled with one another, and wife!ambessa who has a thing for neck tattoos, especially those that rest at the base of the nape
gf!jinx who'll be in a full blown fight with someone talking about how she really can't be messing around with them for too long this time around because she promised her girl she'd be back at xy o'clock, gf!jinx who’s eyes bulge out after throwing her jacket onto a puddle just for you to walk around it😭, gf!jinx who will be experimenting with crazy makeup looks on you and gf!jinx who seems to sleep like a dead person, yet who's grip tightens as soon as she feels you slipping away from her; either that or she instinctively moves closer to you whenever she senses some sort of unwanted distance between your bodies
wife!caitlyn who places her hand on your knee/thigh, thumb caressing slow circles on it while repeating she will be paying that damn restaurant bill- and everything else actually; put your purse away girl, what do you think this is??? wife!caitlyn who isn't the best at posing for pictures and who every single time opts to find your eyes, using them as a point of focus as she always ends up getting lost in them; like this, she never has a bad photo, especially when you're within the frame, always looking at you, a stare that is ever loving and tender
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inzuinzudesu · 9 months ago
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Please zoom in to see small Kakashi! 😭 He kinda disappeared 😭😭😭
Text translation: "Infinite Tsukuyomi" (無限月読)
Drew these in mid-July - when I started doing digital again actually 🤔
Took inspo from the Balut - a street food in my country; I hear a lot of people are grossed out by it?? Don't know if this is controversial, but I personally love the dish. Essentially grew up with it after all!
Wanted to draw something that feels a bit creepy but still has a sense of mysticality to it???
Meh, don't know if the feeling got across or not
I thought since Halloween is coming up, might as well post this haha
About the process of drawing these!
These were very fun to draw! I messed around a lot with photoshop to achieve this glowy dusty effect?? From the brushes to the blending options, and maaan the filter gallery 😭😭 Such fun tools to play with.
The main brush I used to achieve the dusty effect is called "KYLE Bonus Chunky Charcoal", in the Kyle Dry Media brush set. If you can, I recommend checking it out! There are definitely other ways to achieve this sort of effect, though. You can probably just use some sort of scatter texture brush and it'd work just fine. Studying is all about trying things out, right? This is like my first experiment with this type of effect, and I was happy at the time. Now looking back, these could most definitely turn out better, no? I really went overboard with just the effect and forgot everything else. The blood and the plate looks horrible man. If you look closely, you can see the sketch lines haha! I got lazy!
Also, for Obito's pose, I relied heavily on a reference I found on pinterest 😭 I wish I'd changed the pose more tbh, it looks really boring.
And I gotta say, these just look underwhelming in this smaller size. Like reaaaaaally underwhelming. Would love to show you the big version, but oh well! 😭😭😭
Brain vomit time!
I love the prospect (??? is that the right word) of Obito being all god-like and powerful after Tsukuyomi, having control over everybody's dream worlds?? And like he jumps from dream to dream, but stops at Kakashi's and picks it apart???? Observing and tormenting Kakashi with his childhood form that has both sharingan???????
Kakashi would probably be confused with Obito's appearance at first, asking questions like "What are you up to this time, Obito?", but then wouldn't receive any answers??? Like little man would just stare at him creepily, and Kakashi would push this to the back of his mind for a while???
Umm below is the technical stuff, I guess??
My headcanon is that the time span in the dream world is the same as the real world. Meaning, 30 years in the dream world feel incredibly real, with no gap of memories. It's essentially a different timeline. Whether this makes sense or not, who knows haha!
Let's talk about the dream events and how they affect Kakashi! Due to Sakumo and team Minato still living, this Kakashi probably wouldn't be as lax nor sad as in canon?? The relationships and personalities would be different huh???? I'm having a headache thinking about this, so let's just say that: 1. Sakumo lived because the villagers weren't as harsh, but the animosity still remained. Kakashi still developed this obsession with rules, but he doesn't blame his dad as much. 2. Kannabi happened, Kakashi was given the sharingan, along with Obito's ninja way. Team Minato thought that Obito died for a while, but Obito is 'rescued' by Madara, same as canon. 3. Rin would still be targeted by Madara, but Obito came in time to help with the situation, blocking Kakashi's chidori from connecting with Rin's chest, but also knocking Kakashi away. Then, a Mist enemy took advantage of the situation to attack Kakashi, injuring him gravely, to the point where everybody thought he died. With this, Obito activated his Mangekyou and exploded on the Mist enemies, killing them all. Meanwhile, Rin tried to heal Kakashi, just barely saving him. As Obito had dealt with the enemies, there was no need to rush back to the village, and the Sanbi wouldn't be released till then. And so, they waited for Minato to come and help with Rin's seal. (About Obito's Mangekyou activating with Kakashi's death - would that be too far-fetched? My reasoning is that Obito would think that it was his fault Kakashi died, because it was Obito who knocked Kakashi away into the enemy, no?) 4. Because there's no one to become 'Madara' now that Obito came back to the village, Naruto is born, Minato and Kushina live.
5. The Uchiha massacre doesn't happen.
(Everything is incredibly convenient, because I don't have the brain power to make it otherwise, please help 😭😭) -> In conclusion, this Kakashi resembles the Kakashi of the real world, but less depressed and self-destructive??? He loves his living comrades. My man still has a massive obsession (more like crush lol) with Obito by the way, just like in canon. He just doesn't show it.
-> About Obito of the dream world (I'mma call him Dreambito), he is all sunshine and brightness, but he exhibits some dark thoughts and deep rage from time to time due to the residual effects of Madara's seal on his heart. The seal has been removed though. And he has this obsession with Kakashi's safety, as he almost pushed him to his death once, albeit accidentally.
-> I was debating whether to just start this dream world at the point where Obito got crushed, or to start it at the beginning of Kakashi's life. In the end, I went with the latter, cuz ya know, I like the idea of Kakashi living through a whole life all over again, just to finally come to the realization that it's all a dream. Does that make any sense at all??
Obito (child form - 13) first appears in front of Kakashi at the start of the Naruto series, when Kakashi has officially become the teacher of team 7. (Let's not change this okay, my brain would fry haha I'm not gonna deny that the idea of Obito and Kakashi becoming co-teachers of team 7 isn't incredibly fun though)
After the first encounter with this child Obito, Kakashi begins to have flashes of memories from the real world, and he hallucinates about people's deaths - mostly about the members of team Minato. This young Obito is always in the corner of his vision, most of the time silent, sometimes saying things like "You trash" to Kakashi whenever he encounters Rin, who is whole and grown up in this world.
Kakashi exhibits more destructive behaviors as this goes on, the line between the dream events and the real events slowly blurring. He takes more dangerous solo missions out of the village, and shows strong signs of PTSD, just like in canon.
The two Obitos would contrast each other?? Like Dreambito would be all concerned with Kakashi's decline in health (both mental and physical) and goes to confront and comfort him, many times over because that's how it is with them??? Dreambito might even move in with Kakashi, being the obsessive and protective Uchiha that he is. Meanwhile young Obito would be an absolute asshole, saying all these horrible things to poison Kakashi's mind haha
At this point, Dreambito'd be in the last stage on the journey of becoming Hokage, gaining the all the trust from the Uchiha clan, the village elders and the villagers as a whole. I don't know about Rin, though? Should she be romantically involved with Dreambito or no? Would Kakashi dream that??
I think Kakashi's dream would somewhat focus more on Dreambito being happy and satisfied, to be honest. I know there's Sakumo and team Minato as a whole, but as a degenerate shipper, I love the obsession between them🥺
I don't think Obito would directly interfere with what Kakashi is dreaming about, i.e. changing Dreambito's behavior, or like the political situation of the villages (?). But he would most definitely insert himself in Kakashi's psyche, no? Mess it up real good.
Kakashi would slowly realize that he is living a dream world, after all the flashes of memories that Obito generates in his mind. He would most definitely deny it at first though, I think? And then it would reach a point where Kakashi remembers everything from the real world, but he has also lived through 30 something years of the dream world, meaning he'd be in his 60s?? Does that make sense or no?
And so, while Kakashi now knows that everything is a dream, his feelings for everybody in the dream are real. If that's the case, is it really that important anymore that he escapes the Tsukuyomi? Can this dream world really be called fake at this point? Is there even anything in the real world for him to return to?
What's to say 'the real world' isn't a dream at this point?
-> Kakashi would completely close in on himself after this. He still does things that he would normally do, but it'd be all an act. He would feel completely isolated.
-> Dreambito would notice and confront him again, now that they live in the same house??? Kakashi would like say everything is fine and try to act more convincingly, but Dreambito would still know something's wrong????
-> Obito is observing from afar, who knows what his motivation is at this point.
Because this is Kakashi's dream world, I suppose he would have the power to change this world to his will, now that he's aware? This is like a lucid dream situation???
The people in the dream have their own will up until this point, but Kakashi can somewhat change their behavior if he really wants to, whether it's subconsciously or not??? Example: He can probably will Dreambito to kiss him or something lol
So on and so forth!
Man, I'm having waaay too much fun imagining the pain. There are probably like a thousand things that doesn't make sense haha! I do wonder how this sort of storyline should end though, does anybody have any ideas? Personally, I prefer slow burn with a (sort of) happy ending, but ya know, angst all the way is good too! I can't write, but I love thinking about all the things that could happen 😭😭 English isn't my first language, so this might have felt weird to read at some point haha
If anybody wants to develop this, please feel free to do so! And if you've read this far, thank you for reading this absolute brain vomit of mine! I love to yap, as you can tell haha Have a good day!
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valdekboy · 4 months ago
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Another Amazing AU
I never know what to write here… so let's get straight to the point then. A while back I found another amazing AU that belongs to @chez-cinnamon and I liked it … a lot.
And as always, If I liked something, I can't just be normal about it and comment something nice, I had to draw something. Long story short, first sketches were terrible, that took me on a long trip of re-learning some things and learning a couple new things. Overall, making these drawings was one looong roller coaster.
And as always . . . THAT LITTLE YELLOW SON OF A GUN WAS PUSHING ME TO DRAW THE MAIN 6 HE LIKES SO MUCH. So this time I gave him a camera and made HIM do all the work. Let's see how it went.
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Well, the camera experienced Mach 1 speed, so I think that's all
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Now, that's all.
In the end I want to say that I love what you did with these characters and I'm sorry if i messed up any of them.
And now off I go cause honestly I'm a bit stressed about posting this. So I'm pressing the publish button and I'm signing off. I'll be back soon.
As always have a Good Night/Day!
And If you want to read a bit of my rambling about this whole drawing process It's all down there. Just be aware that I write these things mostly for myself.
When I did the first sketch I realized that my old method of drawing poses (which was just sticks and orbs) won't work here. So i started to learn and re-learn some basics, and I tried to remake those sketches at the same time.
In the end there were like 5 different sketches for each character and to be honest, I was really close to just throwing it all out the window because it felt like i was going nowhere. But I found the problem.
My brain just couldn't comprehend that REFERENCE is just a REFERENCE not a fucking guideline that you have to hold on to for your dear life. It's okay to mess up here and there and that no-one is going to kill me for that. And when that thought clicked in, it felt amazing. I finished sketches, then lineart, heck I even drew all these in-betweens with Valdi (that yellow potat).
And then there was time for coloring . . . and that fear of messing up came back. That's why there's not much going on in that department. I'll keep working on fixing that, but it might take a while. And these backgrounds were a complete experiment. I'm not even sure myself if they're any good.
All of this felt like I threw myself in the deep water, but somehow I did it and I'm really glad all of this happened. Comparing these to my previous ones, I really see some improvement, and I did these MUCH faster. Even counting in all the learning i did. (plus building up courage to post these)
I still wish these drawings turned out better, the lines feel stiff, there's nothing to interesting in terms of colors or shading, but even with all that, for the first time in a while I think that these drawings aren't that bad.
And now for the AU. Why this one? I just stumbled upon it one day and I really liked the idea of switching up the one who controls the whole circus. And all those changes to the characters, their style, the clothes, colors and all those little details, I just love everything about that AU. All these characters feel really calming/relaxing to draw If these are the right words to use. (I really hope it doesn't sound too weird) I don't know if I would've learnt the things I did if I didn't find that AU.
So I want to say THANK YOU @chez-cinnamon for creating an Awesome AU and all these Beautiful drawings, and for giving me that bit of inspiration I needed.
If anyone decided to read all that and somehow survived, know that I'm sorry if all of that looks like bunch of random thoughts cobbled together (I bet that my english didn't make this any easier) As I said earlier, I write these thing mostly for myself so I can come back and read them in the future (It just helps me sometimes).
And I just want YOU to know, whoever you are, I'm really glad that YOU are here, reading this.
Thank You for being here!
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frostblightsunbite · 11 months ago
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Another Cass drawing, for the soul.
Had a concept I wanted to sketch out, I'll probably redo this some point in the future.
Rant under cut :)
This isn't the best, but I don't completely hate it so its fine. This was a sketch, as you can probably tell from the shitty line work, but then I experimented with colouring and kinda liked it, so its weirdly disjointed. Also I resized the image so literally none of the line weight is consistent so...
Anyway, cape turning to night sky. neat concept. probably done a lot before, but I can't think of any examples rn.
I messed with the pose a lot. I think there might have been a reference originally, but it now Does Not look anything like it.
I hate the clouds. and the sky part. I hate drawing/painting those in general, so I should probably do a study or something, but I really don't want to
Oh and fun fact, This blog was supposed to be under a different name, but when I tried to make it, it was already taken. as it turns out, literally exactly 11 months before I had made that account using a different email. I'm so dumb.
I'm trying to make this somewhat coherent, but it's like half 3 in the morning, and I need to wake up at 7. I'm so tired idk why I didn't just finish this tomorrow when I would be happier with it.
as a side note, I think every time I draw Cass her eyes get bigger. which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I fear the day when her eyes will envelop her whole. also it kinda functions like a spiderman mask, so thats fun for expressions.
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ladyofthebookcase · 7 months ago
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i need to yap about cultural nudity in nine sols NOW. context for new followers is that i watched kill la kill this summer and really enjoyed it and the commentary it made on nudity and the desexualization of the naked body. not sure how i want to structure this so i'll just kind of block it out based on the three main characters that are relevant to this. also when i say "the text" i mean the game of nine sols as a piece of media, like how english majors would refer to the book or movie they're studying. im not an english major but i could be.
goumang: my initial reaction to seeing her was to be like "huh she's not wearing any pants that's weird", followed by "well that's probably normal for solarians, they're cat people after all so it's probably less of a big deal in their culture" and then i just didn't care about it for like the rest of the game until i replayed it and got to her again and went "oh that's right, no one else has their pussy out like that. i guess that's just a goumang thing?" and, while i think it IS probably just a goumang thing to some extent (see the post about her being pussy out because of furgonomics basically/it's comfortable for her bird legs), an interesting thing to note here is yi's complete lack of reaction to it. goumang doesn't interact with any other characters in this outfit (the jiangshi don't count cus they can say like 2 words ok), and it could be argued that yi simply has bigger priorities/is not into women, but i do think it's notable nonetheless that literally zero acknowledgement is made to the fact that goumang is just walking around pussy out. not even non-diagetic elements interact with that at all; she's never censored in her manga cutscenes or posed in a way that either hides or exposes her. what this means is that her nudity isn't really treated like nudity. the text completely ignores it! now, we also know from a dev comment that solarians are matriarchal, which i think definitely ties into the different treatment of goumang and jiequan in this regard (i.e. why he's censored and she's not, from an in-world perspective, probably is similar to the way "women's" chests are censored in our world, although non-diagetically we know why he's censored lmao.)
jiequan: ok hmm. i'm no jiegolar, so i'm open to input on this one, but the element here i find significant is that jiequan is seen interacting with another person (aside from yi) while being naked. the fact that ji is hidden behind a screen is most likely just to obscure their identity (specifically his tall form) from the viewer, since they don't seem to have a problem also going around essentially pussy out the entire game; this is to say, it's not because jiequan is naked. i will say that the jiequan naked scenes have quite a different Vibe than the goumang and lady e scenes (no seriouesly why is that one cutscene so sexually charged help) but i think it's reasonable to chalk that up to 1) jiequan is a freak and 2) he's obsessed with yi so that changes the overall vibe of their interactions as opposed to, say, goumang. yeah i don't really know what i'm saying on this topic i don't have enough jiequan brainrot experience for this really. it does kind of give the vibe of like an emperor chilling in the nude in his palace and he's allowed to do that because he's the emperor though.
hm. yeah let's move onto something i've thought a bit more about.
lady ethereal: now THIS is really interesting to me for a few reasons, the first of which being that yeah, she's hot, and the game treats her as such! and yet at the same time it doesn't oversexualise her, or portray her as attractive at the expense of her personality. in fact, once again yi makes zero acknowledgement of her nudity-- his focus is on her, and that something strange is happening to her. yi also shows no discomfort or shame about entering the hot spring-- there's no "wait, you want me to get naked?!?!?!" moment that some media might have had, and i think that's really good not only because im a sucker for different cultural and hypothetical-cultural interpretations of nonsexual nudity, but also because a moment like that would have been cheesy and annoying and made the scene less serious. the focus of that scene ISN'T that the hot lynx woman is hot, it's that there is something mentally wrong with the hot lynx woman. the fact that these scenes take place at a hot spring without the text ever interacting with the nudity of the characters is to me a really strong argument for the idea that nudity is fairly normal and definitely not inherently sexual for solarians. the idea that it is inherently sexual is a very historically recent and western thing anyway and maybe i just haven't consumed enough media where it's not portrayed that way but i found this portrayal really refreshing ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS WOMEN ok this isn't even in a gay way i literally don't care about bodies like that. i dont having sex. i just think it's really really refreshing and nice for women to be, like, able to have these kind of scenes and character moments without the text reducing the entire scene to "ohh look boobies lol". without them being censored or hypersexualised or made into a joke. rips off shirt to reveal a tattoo on my bare chest that says "I FEEL STRONGLY ABOUT AFAB BODIES BEING TREATED LIKE THEY'RE INHERENTLY SEXUAL AND THE STRONG EMOTION I FEEL ABOUT THIS IS THAT IT FUCKING SUCKS". thank you for reading my essay.
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meanbossart · 1 year ago
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Oh boy, VaM is kind of a trial and error experience LOL I couldn't really show you how to use the interface and stuff without a whole video or something, but it's not THAT difficult to get a hang of if you just give yourself a day or two to play around, not to mention the number of tutorials you find out there. Luckily, if you only want to use it as a reference software that makes the process far easier (to this day I have no idea how to animate on that thing, since that's not what I use it for)
As for how I use it, it's pretty self explanatory - if there's a complicated pose I want to draw but I'm either having trouble with it, or just want to double-check angles/anatomy, I will use it as a resource! I use for most of my "proper" pieces (y'know, the nicer looking ones) and every once in a while for my silly comics if I'm having trouble with a pose.
Lets use this drawing for example (the character on top of DU drow belongs to @namespara )
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I don't draw a lot of mud-wrestling (shocking, I know) but I had an idea of the kind of pose I wanted them to be in. So the very first thing I did was make a rough sketch of what I was envisioning:
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I often do a rough sketch first, even If I know I'm going to be pulling the program up because A) It's less tedious than adjusting the models over and over again until I pick a pose and B) because sometimes I'll decide I don't need the reference, after all, and so that's 30 minutes I'll have spared myself of playing around on the software.
Now, this is a pretty complicated pose! It's in a weird angle and the bodies are making contact in ways I'm not used to depicting, so I did choose to whip out VaM for this one. I went into the program and after some messing around, I flopped my little dolls together like this:
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Now something really cool about VaM is that you can completely customize your models, and if you have the patience, I would definitely encourage you to do so! Obviously, you don't have to make picture perfect replicas of every single character you have, but as you can see here I have made a DU drow "decoy" to help me better understand some of his features when I draw him: he has a strong brow, a short nose, a square jawline - these are all going to look a very specific way from certain angles, and I might not always be sure of how to draw it right! So it's useful to have models that bear SOME semblance to the character so you can better understand how different viewpoints will affect their bone structure and mass.
Also thank fucking god for the elf-ear slider. Figuring out how to draw those shits from certain angles was a huge pain in the ass when I started drawing DnD races.
So, with the reference in hand, I go over the sketch again:
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Now you may notice that I don't stick to the reference 100%. There's three reasons for this:
posing on VaM is tedious as hell. You can get something incredibly natural looking and picture-perfect to reference from if you wish, but it's going to take you hours to do. So, for the most part I just slap guys together until the results are "close enough" and use that.
In my opinion, you should always aim to ENHANCE your reference material, not replicate it exactly!
While VaM is a PRETTY DANG GOOD source of anatomical reference, it isn't perfect, I often supplement it with further reference from real life resources or make tweaks based on my own knowledge where I catch it falling short (and, antithetical to what I just said, I sometimes fuck the anatomy up further on purpose if I think it looks better that way LOL it's all jazz baby).
Then lines, color, yada yada. I don't have a tutorial on that and I don't think I could make one, because my process is chaotic as hell, but I do at times use Virt-a-mate as loose reference for lighting too when coloring - waaaaayyyy less so however, because that process is even more tedious and I feel like I often get better results by just winging it. It is a feature of the program though, and I'm sure it would be helpful for someone who has a difficult time visualizing lights and shadows. I only started using this program a few months ago, so I happened to already have a pretty good understanding of that kind of thing and just don't personally feel like I get much out of that particular mechanic.
Here's a few other examples of pieces that I made reference for (WARNING: Suggestive)
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Now, for the question many of you may want to ask:
"Can I trace this junk?"
And to that, I say: Buddy, you can do whatever the hell you want with the reference material you created.
However,
If your goal is to learn and improve your art, and to recreate realistic proportions and anatomy from memory, tracing won't help you.
Developing your own style, your muscle memory, and personal technique will all be hindered by choosing to trace instead of drawing from observation, so I would encourage against it. Hell - even when tracing is employed as a technique, it's usually by high-skill realism & concept artists who are looking to either cut some corners, save time, or just double-check their own proportions in order to improve further - if you try tracing as a beginner, you will most definitely find the result to still look stiff and "off".
So trust me, there is so much more to be gained from drawing from observation. Make note of tangents, compare proportions, use all the elements of the picture to dictate where and how things should go - it will be a far more rewarding experience.
Hopefully this has been helpful! VaM is a really cheap program (you get it on the guys' patreon for I think 8 dollars, just google it!) and it's definitely been worth my money as an artist since I found it. Learning to use it can be a little intimidating at first glance, but as I said above you only really need a day plus one or two tutorials to get a hang of the interface.
A fair warning though, IT IS A SOFTWARE MADE FOR VIRTUAL SEX/ADULT ANIMATION So when looking it up expect to see a some spicy content.
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sometimesthereishorse · 4 months ago
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Commissions are OPEN
All payments are made via Paypal, I can be contacted via Tumblr messages or discord: 1nnocentbunny
Open for ToS/Character design specifications/will and won't elaborated
MS Pony
Fullbody colored all drawn in MS paint Base price $5 Single shading +$1 Dual shading +$2 Colored linework +$1 Simplistic background for free on request
Semi-Realistic
Fullbody colored shaded drawn in FireAlpaca $15-$20 depending on complexity Simplistic background for free on request
Character Design
Character design costs nothing extra; the buyer only has to pay the base price. For example, an MS pony design would be $5, or a semi-realistic design would still be $15-$20.
Will/Won't draw
I will draw Designs of any complexity. Of course more complex designs will take longer and the more references the better. Fanart/Ship art, of any fandom really as long as they're equine. Mild gore, such as minor or healed scars, minor cuts or wounds, and cartoonish blood splatter. Mecha, I have little to no experience in drawing mecha but I do have high experience in drawing equines so I am willing to give a shot at equine mecha.
I won't draw NSFW, I feel like this one is self-explanatory. Political stuff, we don't need any more of that than we already have. Detailed background, there will only be single-colored or simple sky & grass/bushes, nothing more. Anything that isn't equine (horses, donkeys, zebras, mules), horse-adjacent characters such as My Little Pony and Torrent from Elden Ring is still welcome!
Terms of Servies
Artwork should only be for personal use, they may not be used commercially or for profit.
All payments should be upfront.
I own all rights to the artwork itself while you maintain the right to the character design. The artwork may not be used in AI.
You are allowed to share the artwork as long as it links back to me in some capacity, such as "Artwork by 1nnocentbunny" in the description.
You will be shown the sketch and linework and you're allowed 2 complete pose changes or 5 minor changes (ei. moving a leg to a different position) at either of theses stages before extra charges are made.
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transfemme-shelterdog · 4 months ago
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Hi! I was curious about your opinion of this because I'm trying to work out if I have a harmful bias on this.
I recently got explained that TMA refers to people who cannot "escape" transmisogny. As in, someone who is treated transmisogynisticly but is able to point to a binary gender, say "I'm actually that" and possibly be left alone would be TME. I understand what is being said here, that a TMA person who has a transfeminine identity of some sort cannot escape transmisogyny because the act of misgendering yourself to protect yourself from transmisogyny is still an experience of transmisogyny, as you're required to hide your womanhood/femininity.
I'm finding that TMA as a descriptor of this particular experience can possibly have a purpose, but I still don't see the point in labeling people TME because that is something that really cannot be determined on a broad scale. The justification apparently is the perception that a TME person can basically put on the woman suit and weaponize cis womanhood against people who are TMA.
I also think it's heavily weighted in white supremacy, people forget that who they describe as "TME" who are poc are never afforded the same treatment as white people who get shoved into the woman box. White cis (non-masculine) womanhood is seen as delicate and in need of protecting (which is misogynistic), whereas nonwhite cis womanhood is not. Historically, woc (including trans woc) have been on their own and subject to horrible abuse with no protection from the system. Even if someone who is trans puts on the woman suit to weaponize the patriarchy's desire to "protect women from predatory deviants", it really is only afforded to people who can pass as white perisex cis women.
Not to mention that in order for a transmasc person to do this they would have to misgender themself, which can have very traumatizing effects. This downplays the effects of transandrophobia (which, assuming transmascs afab are bound to be detransitioners is a transandrophobic mindset) and poses it in opposition to transmisogyny when they should just both be words used to describe different issues.
I don't want to tell transfems/trans women what language they can use because that would be hypocritical of me, but everytime I give the argument for TME/TMA the benefit of the doubt I see ideas that are not very helpful to the broader community and purposely in direct opposition to much of the community.
The use of TME/TMA language as it stands definitionally includes gnc cis men in TMA which contradicts the "unable to escape transmisogyny" definition I was told. Because a gnc cis man can absolutely go "I'm a man" and be treated differently after that, which usually still will result in queerphobic violence anyway, so even if they are TME, it doesn't protect them. A trans man will not be believed if he goes "I'm a man" in response to transmisogynistic violence and that usually results in sexual assault from transphobes. It seems to definitionally just try to exclude transmasculine experiences from marginalized experiences.
It also feels pretty cruel to flippantly act as if all transmascs/men would want to "recede into womanhood" to weaponize patriarchy as if that's not incredibly damaging to us to do if it's even possible to do so, (which it's not for many of us, chiefly transmasc poc and many intersex people).
Sorry this is so long, I just want everyone to have helpful language to describe their experiences and I don't want to talk over anyone who has different experiences from mine.
And I apologize if any of this wording is not inclusive enough.
I don't think you said anything wrong Anon. I completely agree that TMA/E completely ignores the oppression of trans mascs/men, and also ignores the systemic issues that trans POC also face.
I don't see any harmful biases, or issues here. I think you're completely in the right and have approached this topic with a level head and clear focus.
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cupcakewebkinz · 1 month ago
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hellooo you finally get to find out why i asked for shelly and vees outfit descriptions lol
(also a little sidenote i tend to hyperfixate super hard on aus / media in general that i think are cool for a little while and im pretty sure thats whats goin on here lol. when tisms collide /j)
OKAY SO UHHHH i had this idea like. a week ago atp? of like. what if the caretaker shanon versions of shelly and vee were actually in the game. and they had their own unique abilities and stuff
SO HERE THEY ARE :D (several sidenotes here- 1. i dont ever really do traditional art so some things look a little jank lol, and 2. i meant to finish these a couple days ago but it took a weirdly long time for me to get the sticky notes lol. OKOK HERES THE ART-)
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OK SO THERES A LOT GOING ON HERE !! first off i based these two (mostly) off the early au events, mostly cuz the ideas i had for their abilities are generally referencing that era, so i thought itd be fitting
okay i. i wanna explain all the references in these cuz i think its really neat..
i dont think vees active ability needs explaining lol but her passive is inspired by her whole plot of learning to let herself explore the world more (more specifically that one fic where she finds the guitar, its where the name comes from)
👆 this is also what her trinkets from !! its shanons old guitar !!
"space nerd" skin is referencing the outfit post and how shes, well, a space nerd. "anxious proposal" is referencing the fic where vee proposes, and "rain walk" is referencing, well, their walk in the rain from the very beginning. (ykw the skins are kinda self explanatory too lol)
this wasnt intentional when i was picking which outfits to use for the skins, but i think they also contribute to the general theme of vee coming out of her shell here- new interests she was never supposed to have, love she wasnt supposed to feel, and a world she was never supposed to experience for herself. idk i think its neat :]c fuck you delilah
okay shellys abilities are something im also rlly proud of- her active is based on the og post and how much of a spectacle shelly was, and then how everyone chilled tf out after a while
i also rlly wanted to emphasize how much of a team player she is, and how much she does for her friends. her active isnt rlly great for distracting- its main purpose is to pull twisteds off of someone if theyre about to die/lose health, and her passive is also mainly to help out her teammates.
her trinket is also from the fic where vee finds the guitar! i knew i wanted it to be a dino plushie of some sort (to emphasize the previous pint, but also to add in her love of sewing) and i eventually decided itd be fitting to make it the little pterodactyl she made for vee in that fic :]
"surprise party" skin is from the birthday fic, "mama's girl" is from the mothers day fic (fun fact i used that pose so i didnt have to design the sweater LOL), and "expert digger" is from the outfit post, again all pretty self explanetory
and i think thats it !! just wanted to share this little idea, hope you have a great rest of your day/night/whatever ^^
DUDE I WENT WET BEAST MODE AND SCREAMED LIKE A BANSHEE THEN STARTED COUGHING LIKE MAD AND I THINK I LOST MY VOICE LOL
THIS IS LIKE- SO FUCKING COOL OH MY GOD-
I LOVE HOW MUCH OF SHANON IS IMPRINTED ON THESE TWO TOO- LIKE HER GUITAR- THE VALIDATION THEY BOTH FEEL FROM HER GENUINELY CARING- VEES FUCKING ABILITY OH MY GOLF CARTS I'M SPIRALLING-
(In the best way ofc)
MAMA'S BABY GIRL AWWGHGHGHGH-
SHE IS MAMA'S GIRL OHHHH MY GOOOOOOD
I'M SHAKING SO HARD SOMEONE HOLD ME
PLEASE
THE WAY THE EVERYTHING WORKS AND FITS THEM BOTH SO WELL
THE SMALL DETAILS LIKE THE HEART LOCKET ON SHELLY AND GLISTEN'S BOW ON VEE-
THEIR RINGS-
THE REFERENCES TO THINGS I DIDN'T EVEN THINK PEOPLE NOTICED-
I'M GOING TO EXPLODE I CANNOT EXPRESS HOW MUCH I LOVE THIS OH MY GOLFBALLS
DUDE THIS IS SICK I NEVER THOUGHT
I
I AM SPEECHLESS I NEVER THOUGHT I'D EVER INSPIRE ANYTHING LIKE THIS-
NO AMOUNT OF WORDS COULD EXPRESS HOW GRATEFUL I AM OH MY WORMS, I LOVE THIS SO MUCH, I LOVE ALL THE DETAILS AND I LOVE JUST- EVERYTHING- OUGH I'M SO FERAL
THIS IS THE COOLEST THING EVER MAN THANK YOU SO SO SO MUCH I'M SERIOUSLY SHAKING FROM HOW FLATTERED I AM SOMEONE WOULD MAKE SOMETHING LIKE THIS FOR ME-
OH MY BABIESSSSS
I'M SO FERAL RN I'M GOING TO GO ZOOMIES UNTIL I EXPLODE!!! /pos
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narfin-frood · 8 months ago
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Silly question but how do you art?
Or more like, how is your process to draw? Your lines and posing are so loose and show the feeling of a character so well, like, how do you make your art so real with only a few lines is what most amaze me. Anyway I hope I'm not bothering you and that makes sense, thanks for reading!<3
you're not a bother, don't worry! i'm not sure if there's an appropriately concise answer to a question like this, but i'll try to explain my process for poses a bit, and if there's anything else specific you'd like to know about my process, feel free to ask, and i'll try to answer!
for posing, i find it's very helpful to start by thinking about what situation the character is in. you don't need a location or a background or anything (unless you're being #serious about it). for this, i chose "picking up something way too heavy" (cont. under cut, wall of text ahead)
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keeping it very simple is key!!! do not worry about details!!! i am very bad at this. i love to add a little detail or two, like his eyes or his little expression, but i have to catch myself before i get too into it, otherwise i'll forget the point of what i was doing and/or get bored. use just enough strokes to get the point across, and stop there (for now).
i draw fast and loose, with long strokes, which also happens to help with the problem that happens if you start with any specific part of the body. it's important to start with... everything at once, or else you won't be able to see what needs to be changed or fixed until it's too late and you've already decided on where you want the head and the left arm to be!
to display effort & strain without just contorting the character's face, you gotta think about just how heavy the object is, how one would go about grabbing it comfortably, and whether your character is smart enough to lift with their legs.
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wander is great (read: BEST CHARACTER DESIGN EVAR. i love him kisskisskiss) because he's not grounded in any sort of reality until necessary, and his limbs have no bones, but he still has specific proportions and volumes to refer back to if you get carried away with the wackiness. posing a character made up of several noodles of varying widths is very simple, because you can do basically whatever you want to push and pull and make it as clear (and/or as funny) as possible.
start with your line of action, in this case the long line connecting his neck and his left foot. think about where the floor is, so you can make the feet of your character and whatever else is touching it coexist in the same reality. think about clarity: big, simple shapes are your friends, and if you're not getting the gist of the pose through the silhouette alone, try again! there's NO shame in hiding the first layer and doing a couple more sketches until you land on something you really like. Don't polish a turd, especially if you yourself think it's a turd. it'll make you feel like you're wasting time, and drawing is about having fun and experimenting, so if it's getting boring or frustrating, it's time to try something else.
wander and other characters with no bones and no rules are great for posing because you can do things like make their arms bend the wrong way just to play with the clarity of the pose. this:
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un-breaks the arms and makes a little more sense for somebody with elbows, but some clarity in the action is lost when the arms don't curve upward and away from the very heavy object he's straining to pick up.
grounding your characters is both more complex and easier than it sounds, and it unfortunately requires you to think about perspective (i know. i know. i know it sucks and it's confusing. i hated it for a very long time but once it clicks, you'll have it in your brain forever)
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fudging a perspective grid is fairly easy, just draw several parallel lines and have them get closer to each other as they recede into the distance, and then do it again in the opposite direction. you can use the transform tool in whatever program you use most to fudge this for even less effort, by just getting a png of a grid and fucking with it
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now that you've got your floor, think about those feet. the grid makes it fairly easy to envision how a shoe would look sitting on that floor:
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this is also where having an understanding of volumes comes in handy, because things farther in the distance will in fact look smaller, but it's up to you to figure out just how much smaller it would be in comparison to the other identical thing with the same volume that's closer to the camera. usually it's almost negligible, but it becomes easy to spot if it's a little off.
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and here's the pose i settled on! i made his noodle arms more extreme for extra XD factor and i put him on his tippy toes for that extra bit of height!
a lot of the principles i'm talking about in this post i mainly pick up from consciously watching my favorite cartoons (and live action shows) and if i really, really like the way something is done, or if i see something that i've never really registered before, i'll screencap it or i'll pause or i'll just keep thinking about it until i draw again.
this is called "building a visual library" and it's the #1 easiest and most important way to practice. it requires no drawing, unless you want it to. look at lots of art by artists you love, and if you see something and you think to yourself, hey, this looks really good, by all means, absorb it.
art is great and it's really fun and there's literally nothing wrong with taking inspiration where you can find it!! seriously!!! absorb your favorite parts of every art style you find cool and fun and put it into your own! you're the only person who can draw the way you draw, and while replicating an art style is fairly easy (or it can be, depending), matching it perfectly is Literally impossible, so don't worry about being derivative. Nobody will notice, and if they do, it's okay to say you're inspired by them! encouraged, even!
my own art style, like everybody else's, is a frankenstein's monster containing all of the things i've loved before!!! and i think thats beautiful and if anybody tries to tell you you've gotta be 100% original and have "your very own style", they're a filthy liar and they're definitely (consciously or not) already taking inspiration and reference from the things they themselves find cool and awesome.
ANYWAY. wall of text over.
TLDR: draw quickly, use long strokes (try not to pet your lines), have a specific situation to put your character in, get familiar with volumes and proportions, and have fun!!!
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hansoeii · 2 years ago
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Hellooo :D!! I just wanted to ask if you have any tips for coming up with ideas for full pieces. It could totally just be “oh this seems cool/cute” and then just testing compositions/colours/etc on the spot (and I’d be happy with tips about that too), but I was curious if there’s any brainstorming you do when/if ideas don’t just pop up in your head (or you do have a very loose idea, but need a bit more planning before actually starting the piece)
Also I obviously need to mention that I ADORE your art!! Your most recent piece with angel Crowley had me in AWE (I’m pretty sure my jaw actually dropped).
Thank you!!!
It's a mix of both "oh my god I have this great idea I gotta draw it NOW" and "let's scroll through pinterest for 2 hours and hope that something inspires me".
For example this piece under the rain was an idea I had while taking a nap. I didn't have any proper references for it and just put a bunch of puzzle pieces together and hoped for the best, haha.
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I usually have this one specific idea that I wanna turn into an illustration and then I spend hours searching for references that make the process a little easier. This was my reference sheet for it:
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Most of the time I just go through my Pinterest poses board and see if there's something I'd like to draw, though. I save a lot of poses I like constantly that I can go back to later on. This was the case with the angels illustration I did!
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I didn't have anything super specific planned for it when I started working on it. I actually planned for it to just be some small and quick little drawing. It somehow turned into the best thing I've ever made djhdhd
Here's my reference sheet for this one:
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With most of my work I don't really do a lot of planning. I do that enough in my school assignment already, so I tend to just draw loosely when it comes to personal work, haha.
So the tip I'd give you is to get as many references as you possibly can! It makes your life so much easier. Also look for color palettes you enjoy, see how other artists use colors! And be willing to just experiment. Most of my art is just one experiment after another in hopes that one day I know what I'm doing.
Hope this helps a little bit! Thank you for supporting me and my work! :D
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httyd-art-requests · 5 months ago
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HELLOO!!! I just stumbled upon your blog and I admit that I already love it. While looking at some fanart, a question (or curiosity, depending on how you put it) came to me: how do you draw dragons? Or, more precisely, do you have a method for figuring out the shapes and sketching the different species? AND do what program and brushes do you use (especially for sketching)?
I'm sorry that's a lot, but I'd like to get familiar with drawing dragons, I hope you can answer<33
-☄️
Hello, welcome to the blog!! :D
I can definitely answer your questions!
I recently bought a new tablet with a pen, which is part of the reason I haven't posted in a while. I'm a little overwhelmed and hesitant to start drawing dragons for the blog again, so I've been focusing on personal art to get comfortable with the new equipment. But I can absolutely tell you how I used to draw on my previous tablet!
It didn't have a pen or any sort of pen pressure, so I used IbisPaintX and its basic opaque brushes for both sketching and coloring. I used the same brushes for sketching, lining AND coloring, I just changed the opacity as needed. I never used any of my brushes on 100% opacity for the lineart, I just layered my lines to give them some texture. I did also make a custom fuzzy textured brush by messing with settings, but I didn't really use that for the dragon posts as far as I remember (except for the Liberated Duskcutter drawing)
As for drawing dragons specifically, I use a LOT and I mean a LOT of references for every drawing, especially for species I haven't drawn until that point. In my experience, tracing helps you get familiar with the dragon's shapes and helps to build muscle memory on the long term. Part of my process is to find good reference images, break them down into shapes by drawing on top of them, and then use those shapes sort of like building blocks to figure out a new pose that I can then refine.
The shape of the head is always the most difficult for me to get right, so I tend to focus on it even when the rest of the body might look a little wonky (don't look too closely at the toes and fingers)
I'm not very good at explaining my process, but I love answering questions, so feel free to ask for clarification as needed. I do hope this helped though! I wish you luck on your dragon drawing journey <3
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whiteeyes-is-a-mad-scientist · 10 months ago
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your art is so beautiful, and I’m loving your fanseries so far!!! do you have any tutorials on how you draw your dragon wings? (specifically in more dynamic poses or when they’re folded in) keep up the amazing work! :D
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Tysm!! im glad your enjoying!!
I need to preface this by saying I often stumble through drawing wings so I had a bit of a harder time describing how I draw them. As well as the fact that there isnt really any wrong way to draw wings given how much variation you can given them in fantasy. Still though I hope I can offer some tips
Biggest tip is to get the arm down. pretty much any flying animal has this arm of sorts. I find laying down the shape of it really helps shape the rest of the wing. I added the most basic 3 lines I use in the step by step. (Sometimes I use my own hand to imagine where the "fingers" of the wing go, cause you cant always find that just right reference with birds or bats. Imagine if you taped long straws to your fingers then draped a blanket across your shoulders.)
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2nd tip is with folded wings. Often if your characters wings are folded in they arent the focus of the piece, so dont put too much detail in those folded wings. Draw em and leave em. Its super easy to wanna put detail everywhere but sometimes less is better. But of course you can always add detail and my biggest tip if you wanna add detail is remember the folds. a closed wing will often have a scrunched up look.
And of course my final tip is reference and practice. Reference wise id suggest birds, bats, and pterosaurs (as much as you can from an extinct creature lol) There is also plenty of dragon wing tutorials out there that get more specific.
Your also free to trace over my work for practice as long as its not posted publicly, tho I highly recommend not just doing that. Its important to experiment and find your own style n' method. its also a bit better to understand what your drawing more than just knowing muscle memory movements (ex. understanding how the arm of a wing works can help you to need less references as youd know how to postion the webbing, folds, fingers, etc) Tracing wise your most helpful resource is bats.
Apologies if i was all over the place but hope this helps some!
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adorkastock · 7 months ago
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Hey, so this might be a totally odd question/request and obviously you have no obligation to do this but. Let's call it a suggestion. Have you ever thought about having models of various body types do something like, they do a specific pose in underwear, then the same pose clothed? Would be especially helpful with models with more body fat to study how the shape changes from something like a skirt digging a bit into the waist, do you get what I mean? Again, just an idea. I've tried doing this myself but it's actually really hard to take good reference photos on your own ^^"
Hey Nonnie! So clothing in general isn't something I do though I have done some stuff with "getting dressed" etc and sometimes I use a specific clothing item as a prop like a coat in motion. But in general it's just not my thing. Doesn't mean it won't happen because who knows what the future holds. I would say if you haven't already do check out @jookpubstock because they might have some stuff like this?? At least I know some stuff is clothed. And @null-entity might also have dome similar in the past. I am an unreliable narrator of my own experience. Thanks for the idea! I will let it simmer and we will see what happens. ♥ If you need How To Take Pose Refs I will mention this post in case it is helpful
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