#post southern raiders

[sevrinve]

forgiveness 🌧

[dyingroses]

Avatar: The Last Airbender + AO3 tags

[theweeklydiscourse]

What’s with the ATLA fandom’s bizarre tendency to discuss Aang as if he’s a real-life kid? It’s gotten to the point where if you criticize the messaging of the show or certain writing decisions that are conveyed through Aang, people act like you’re picking on a real person with real feelings. Furthermore, he’s also not a paragon of wisdom, yet people talk about him as though he is based on his fictional circumstances in the narrative. These two issues are connected somehow, both claims ignore the fiction of the show and blur the lines between fictional dilemmas and real-life moral dilemmas. Ultimately, Aang is a vehicle for the morals that Bryke wish to communicate and consequently, their shortcomings, blindspots and biases surface in his character.

[zukosdualdao]

i've been seeing the take recently that what aang is actually encouraging katara to do is to forgive herself and that he’s not explicitly encouraging or expecting her to forgive yon rha.

the ironic thing is that i do think part of what katara needed from the experience of confronting yon rha was to let go of the guilt she held for her mother sacrificing herself for katara. i find this especially evident in the scene where she recounts the story to zuko and remarks that she's "not the helpless little girl" she was when they came, and how enraged she becomes when yon rha asks who kya was protecting. but though she ultimately chooses not to take revenge, katara facing yon rha and realizing what he did is about him and what kind of person he is and was never her fault is ultimately a good thing. it’s not an easy or fun experience, but i do think it was a very necessary one.

i might be somewhat less critical of aang in this episode if that actually was what he was saying (though if he went about it in the exact same way, i would still find it condescending and not a productive way of reaching out to her.)

but that’s just… literally not what he’s saying.

Zuko: Sokka told me the story of what happened. I know who did it and I know how to find him. Aang: Um ... and what exactly do you think this will accomplish? Katara [Shakes her head in dismay.] Ugh, I knew you wouldn't understand. [Begins to walk away.] Aang: Wait! Stop! I do understand. You're feeling unbelievable pain and rage. How do you think I felt about the sandbenders when they stole Appa? How do you think I felt about the Fire Nation when I found out what happened to my people? Zuko: She needs this, Aang. This is about getting closure and justice. Aang: I don't think so. I think it's about getting revenge. Katara [Angrily.] Fine, maybe it is! Maybe that's what I need! Maybe that's what he deserves! Aang: Katara, you sound like Jet.

i think this is the one interaction between aang and katara in which you could maybe argue that he wants her to forgive herself, as he brings up something he's expressed guilt about before, in the storm, (running away before the fire nation killed the air nomads), and she comforted him there and encouraged him not to feel guilty.

but the thing is, he doesn't say anything about how she shouldn't feel guilty. he tries to acknowledge what she's feeling, which is good, but if he was honestly trying to encourage her to forgive herself, i think he would remind her of how she comforted him when he expressed his own guilt. i'm not even totally sure how in tune he is with her guilt. it's not something he mentions when expressing he knows how she feels. (and this isn't me saying he's awful to not know that; it's not something he can necessarily know unless she's expressed it to him, which we haven't seen. but we have seen her try to connect with him over her mother’s death to empathize with him in the southern air temple, and he doesn’t really acknowledge it. so, i do think it shows he has an overly simplistic understanding of her emotions, and that he's not thinking about this in the framework of forgiving oneself.)

if the writers wanted to showcase him encouraging her to forgive herself, they could have had aang say something like, "i know how badly losing your mother must have hurt, but it wasn't your fault, and i'm worried that confronting the man who killed her won't help you."

instead, he immediately makes an argument about moral corruption - he thinks it is about revenge and expresses she sounds like jet because of it. that... is not encouraging her to forgive herself. it's a judgment based on morality. you can argue about whether aang's right or not (i, personally, find his stance reductive in context, but to each their own), but he is absolutely being judgmental here.

this is when the concept of forgiveness comes up:

Katara: Now that I know he's out there ... now that I know we can find him, I feel like I have no choice. Aang: Katara, you do have a choice: forgiveness. Zuko: That's the same as doing nothing! Aang: No, it's not. It's easy to do nothing, but it's hard to forgive. Katara: It's not just hard, it's impossible. [Cuts to overhead shot of the field as she walks away, Zuko following behind.]

in it, aang encourages forgiveness directly after katara expresses she feels she has no choice but to confront her mother’s killer. even if aang does mean forgiveness for herself, katara does not hear it that way, as is made evident by the fact she insists forgiveness would be impossible here, and if he does mean forgiveness for herself, i don't know why he wouldn't try to correct that misunderstanding.

Aang: So you were just gonna take Appa anyway? Katara: Yes. Aang: It's okay, because I forgive you. [Pauses.] That give you any ideas?

this might actually be my least favorite part of the episode. while it is generally not nice to take a friend's sky bison without permission, it is so genuinely condescending and a false equivalence to even try to compare that to the murder of her mother, particularly because of how smug aang is about his example of forgiving her for it.

also, aang is trying to "give [her] ideas" about what she should do, and it's clear he doesn't blame himself for katara taking appa. he is not forgiving himself here and telling her that’s what she should do. his point is that he's forgiving her and thinks she should do the same. (for the man. who murdered. her mother. and, while we're at it, would have murdered katara herself if he knew the truth. it is just... not the same situation at all.)

Katara: Don't try to stop us. Aang: I wasn't planning to. This is a journey you need to take. You need to face this man. [Katara situates herself on Appa's head.] But when you do, please don't choose revenge. Let your anger out, and then let it go. Forgive him.

aaaand there we have it.

aang 100% wants and tells katara to forgive her mother's killer. even if you think he also wants her to find healing (which i actually agree he does want for her, but i don't think he expresses it well/in a way that is likely to reach her, and the show acts like he is wise for this regardless) and forgive herself (if he does realize katara needs this, it's not something he expresses), he also very much does absolutely tell katara to forgive her mother's murderer, and that she won't find healing without doing so.

you can agree or disagree with his stance, but that is absolutely the argument he is making, and it’s weird to try to act like it’s not.

and, as i said before, i personally find it reductive. there are things in this world that we should be angry at. there are things people find impossible to forgive. those things may be different for everyone, but they do exist, and that's completely morally neutral. i find the idea that katara has to forgive the man who killed her mother in an act of imperalist violence in order to find healing and inner peace disturbing. no, actually, she doesn't!

this ideology is also very commonly weaponized against abuse survivors in particular, which is a big part of why it is significant that zuko goes with katara on this journey and defends her right not to forgive yon rha, even as he later also respects her decision not to kill him, which shatters the whole false dichotomy of forgiveness vs revenge being presented by aang’s role in the episode.

we don't actually see the talk in which zuko tells aang about what happened, but based on his perspective the whole episode, i very much doubt he framed it as "katara decided to forgive yon rha."

Aang: Zuko told me what you did. Or what you didn't do, I guess. I'm proud of you. Katara: I wanted to do it. I wanted to take out all my anger at him, but I couldn't. I don't know if it's because I'm too weak to do it or because I'm strong enough not to. Aang: You did the right thing. Forgiveness is the first step you have to take to begin healing. Katara [Rises from boardwalk.]: But I didn't forgive him. I'll never forgive him.

aang hears about what happened and assumes that because katara didn't kill yon rha, she forgave him, and katara corrects him. she (quite angrily) tells aang that she didn’t forgive yon rha, and she never will. katara knows exactly what aang was telling her to do, and even at the end of the episode, it’s clear she resents it and resents aang being “proud of her” for his assumption.

[theotterpenguin]

if the southern raiders had been written with a focus on katara and sokka’s relationship with each other and with grief, the conflict would have revolved around whether confronting someone who caused you trauma is necessary to heal or would only end up causing you more pain. both choices would be presented as equally understandable and a personal choice one has to make for themself, rather than manufacturing conflict over the “right” or “wrong” way to deal with grief to uplift one person’s moral philosophy over another’s.

katara, having looked into the eyes of her mother's murderer just before he killed her mother for protecting her, had a uniquely traumatic experience with her mother's death that was different from her brother. especially because katara ended on taking on her mother's role after her death, which is an emotional burden that sokka did not have to bear. sokka's trauma from his mother's death is tied more to the aftermath of losing his mother, and then later his father to the war rather than a personal hatred for the faceless man who killed his mother. this doesn't make his grief lesser, just different.

so it would only make sense that in the southern raiders, sokka would be opposed to katara going after yon rha. not because he doesn't deserve to die - because sokka is not a pacifist, he understands the realities of war. sokka would worry that facing yon rha would hurt katara more than it would ever help her heal. because for him, confronting yon rha would mean putting a face to the war that broke his family apart - a despicable person that he doesn't like to think about, a person that he would never want to see.

but katara is different. she needs this closure, she needs to face the terrible man who took her mother away and not be that scared little girl who ran away all over again. she needs this trip to deal with the survivor's guilt she's been carrying with her for the last six years. and it makes sense that sokka doesn't understand that at first. just as it makes sense that katara doesn't understand why sokka wouldn't want the same.

that's why at the end of the episode, katara is in a better state mentally than she was earlier. even though she is still conflicted over her choice not to kill yon rha, she needed to face the personification of her trauma, the representation of the childhood she lost, and that was what helped her heal - it really wasn't about choosing "peace" or "violence." and the episode should have ended with a conclusion between katara and sokka, in which both come to understand that the pain they experienced over their mother's death was different, and so they each had a different (but equally valid) way of coping with their grief.

(as a side note - this is also why zuko is the perfect person to accompany katara on her journey. they both have very similar experiences with grieving the loss of their mothers who sacrificed themselves for them, and both choose to confront the man who took their mother away from them, which helped them both to heal. zuko understands katara's need to face the person that has caused her trauma, even if sokka and aang do not understand at first because their experiences were different)

[sapphic-agent]

(Sorry for the small text at the bottom)

[againwiththeturtles]

katara spends the whole show searching for acknowledgements of her grief from others to get closure of some kind, or to gain a sliver of peace. but it never sticks. talking about it doesn't ease the pain. time didn't ease the pain. action doesn't ease the pain. the war is still going and the wound is still growing, so of course she still hurts. her story doesn't end with her resolving that pain, but she does accept that she's always going to be angry and sad, and the empty space where her mother was will always be there. and of course it will. of course it will. but she's strong enough to always be aware of that emptiness, and to stop trying to fill it in.

[aangarchy]

I feel like i need to reiterate what my opinion on the southern raiders as an episode is bc my previous posts about it are like 3 years old at this point, so here goes. I want to preface this by saying all of this is in fact my opinion and not me trying to state facts. I'm not going to argue who's right or wrong. I'm not going to debate it either. If your opinion is different: great! You're a human being that can also think for themselves!

In my opinion, the southern raiders is not a good episode. The only reason it exists, is because Katara needed to stop hating Zuko and start trusting him, and thus Zuko would be officially and fully part of the gaang. There's a reason they didn't give Toph a life changing field trip episode. It wasn't necessary in the narrative because Toph already pretty much trusted Zuko. Sokka and Aang had their respective Zuko trips, and Suki rode along in Sokka's episode. Katara was the only one left and for some reason this is what they came up with, and they crammed it in right before a filler episode so they could start of the finale.

I particularly dislike Zuko's behavior in this episode. I'm not saying it's out of character. I just feel like at this point in the story he should know better. First he doesn't understand why Katara is still angry at him. Then he gets to the conclusion that Katara has connected her anger towards her mother's murderer to him, which isn't false, but Katara is still justified in her anger because Zuko has also been very shitty towards her. Then once he has the information he needs from Sokka (who didn't ask to get involved and just wanted to have a fun night with his girlfriend and now had to recall one of his most traumatic memories) he just drops it onto Katara, first cornering her by waiting outside her tent to make sure he's the first thing she sees. He also tells her he "knows who did it." Only he doesn't actually know does he? He just knows it's the leader of the southern raiders, but he doesn't know where to find him yet, but he does know where they can find out so it's okay. They only need to ninja sneak into a highly guarded tower and get a the map. No biggie. Then they march over to Aang and tell him they "need to borrow Appa". They don't even ask him nicely, they just say "we need him". Aang is rightfully sceptical.

Now i know Appa is their only mode of transportation in this episode bc the airship is with Hakoda. But can i remind everyone that Appa is more than just a vehicle? He's a living breathing animal and also Aang's pet. And Aang has already lost him once. They're planning on taking Appa straight into the danger zone without Aang or any armor. And they don't even ask permission! They were planning to sneak out with him at night without Aang's knowledge too! What if Appa got hurt? What if they get captured along with Appa?

Then when Aang points out how this plan sounds insane (bc it fucking is), Katara immediately tells Aang he doesn't understand. What's weird about this is Aang is actually one of the few people there that DOES. Aang is a victim of genocide just like Katara. Within a few days he went from wandering the airtemples with the other kids and playing pai cho with Gyatso to learning his entire civilization and culture has been dead for a century. He was faced with his mentor and father figure's skeleton, and with the knowledge that whomever did it has been dead for a long time. He points this out to Katara, and Zuko dismisses him saying this is what Katara needs.

It's funny how Zuko's entire motivation for this plan in the first place is for Katara to stop hating him. It's entirely selfish, and he's essentially using Katara's grief for his benefit. But all of a sudden when they get stopped by Aang and asked to explain themselves Zuko believes this is what Katara needs. Now i am willing to believe that Zuko genuinely thinks this will help Katara at this point, as it seems like he's living a bit through her. After all he too lost his mother (although he recently discovered she is alive) and boy wouldn't he like to hurt Ozai for being responsible for his mother's disappearance. But this doesn't take away that this plan started with selfish motivations.

Aang rightfully points out that this isn't about closure but about revenge, and tries to explain to both of them the airnomad philosophy around revenge. Zuko, still wanting to go ahead with his plan bc he wants Katara to stop hating him, dismisses this and calls it "airtemple preschool". I'll rephrase that: a direct descendant of the nation that eradicated the entire airnomad population dismisses and insults the teachings of said eradicated culture. And it's played of as a joke? Because it's a funny phrase i suppose? Hardy har the oppressor is making fun of the beliefs and culture of the oppressed! And as if this isn't enough, he decides to drive this home even further by calling Aang a "guru goodie goodie" when Aang asked Katara not to choose revenge. Again we're supposed to find this funny, and sure as a kid the line on its own is funny. But growing up and realizing the context around it, it very quickly becomes not funny and actually kind of infuriating, because again the reason Zuko is trying so hard to dismiss Aang is that he wants this plan to succeed so Katara will stop throwing insults his way. Katara is also very mean towards Sokka this episode, claiming he didn't love their mother the way she did. Poor Sokka really got put trough the ringer this episode.

I also again want to point out how dangerous this plan is. The first field trip with Aang was different. They were visiting ruins for the benefit of Aang learning firebending (a skill he needs to face Ozai), so this trip was very necessary. Sokka's trip was "selfish" for other reasons than Katara. He felt like he failed his dad by letting him get captured, and so he wants to prove himself by getting him out. At least we can applaud Sokka and Zuko for not endangering Appa into enemy territory this time around, and for going into the trip with good intentions (aka saving Dad and later up saving Suki). But the consequences of Sokka's trip show up almost immediately because Azula was able to track them down and bomb the place. The southern raiders trip could have very well had the same exact consequences. They could get captured, they could die, they could get tracked and lead the fire nation to the location of the Avatar (who they now know is alive and is once again their biggest threat), Appa could get hurt. All of this to murder a man and they don't end up doing it. (Just to be clear i'm not mad that Katara didn't kill Yon Rah, i'm actually really happy with that choice and how it foreshadows Aang choosing not to kill Ozai. I'm mad at the fact that they did this dangerous plan with bad intentions and didn't even complete it.)

Now by the end, i'm not saying Aang was completely in the right this episode. He told Katara to forgive this man when he knows damn well she would never. I'm not saying she couldn't. She just wouldn't. But he was right in saying that Katara needed to face this man and come to a non-violent closure. He was also correct in the assumption that Katara needed to forgive. He only wanted Katara to aim this forgiveness at the wrong person. Katara did forgive at the end. She forgave Zuko (who still didn't really deserve it in my opinion because we never even see him apologize to Katara personally for what he did to her?) Zuko even admits at the end that Aang was right in saying violence wasn't the answer. Aang's methods were just a bit off this episode, because there was no way Katara was going to listen to him.

To round this off: this episode could have been done differently. The only thing that really needed to happen for the plot, was for Katara to forgive Zuko and for Zuko to ask Aang how he was going to apply his pacifist upbringing into defeating the firelord. Everything else wasn't narratively necessary, and brought up some very questionable scenes. You could argue that we needed to find out what happened to Katara's mother, but honestly we kind of already knew. She died at the hands of the fire nation. We didn't really need to have it laid out, so it wasn't necessary for the story.

Anyway, that's it. Like i said above, i don't really want to debate this. If you disagree with it you can make your own post about it, i'd rather not get into arguments in the reblogs or comments.

[weepynymph]

Am I the only one? 

[fabdante]

like idk if i was katara and i was carrying all that guilt about my moms murder and then some guy is like 'i can help you get some catharsis for that' and then everyone else started arguing with me about it i would get mad about it to asdfghjk i would probably be a little mean also

i would say some harsh things maybe

i would perhaps have a feeling or two

[kyoshi-lesbians]

“I wanted to do it. I wanted to take out all my anger at him. But I couldn’t. I don’t know if it’s because I’m too weak to do it, or if it’s because I’m strong enough not to.”

atla episode The Southern Raiders // Oliver Baez Bendorf, Who Spit into the Pumpkin, Who They Waiting For

ID in alt text

[dyingroses]

Avatar: The Last Airbender + AO3 tags

[ultfreakme]

Zuko being like “yes i get it understanding and empathy with kind words is the strategy to befriend the gaang” after Aang and Sokka, but he tries it with Katara but all she wants is someone to be her cheerleader when she attempts the murder and honestly his attempted soothing presence is barely of help.

Zuko: Your anger and pain is understandable, if you want to talk-

Katara, conflicted as fuck and going through it since she’s remembering her mom’s tragic death: WHO TF CARES??? Now tell me where that fucker’s located

[narrativelysignificantturtleduck]

the premise of "avatar day" is very similar to this one ds9 episode where jadzia dax agrees to fulfill a klingon blood oath sworn by a past host and now i'm kinda wondering how aang would handle it if being accountable for his past lives' actions was like That. like obviously he is fully capable of saying No to murdering as part of his avatar duties no matter how much his past lives agree to it but the blood oath was about helping to avenge a personal loss, it wasn't about the state of the world or whatever. and even though kor let jadzia out of the blood oath (since technically she wasn't the one to make it) she agreed to do it, which to me feels similar to aang choosing to stand trial for kyoshi's crimes. like aang & co could've just skipped town like "well it was a past life so you're not accountable" but aang felt compelled to take responsibility for his past life's actions the same way jadzia did.

of course, there's a big difference in that jadzia has the memories of her past life and remembers the loss her past host swore to avenge. a similar situation would not feel as personal to aang bc he wouldn't remember it. but aang does feel this sense of responsibility to his past lives, feels a lot of guilt for his 100 year coma and all the things he didn't do. there's definitely a possibility that he'd come on the journey because he made a promise, and i think he might try to respect another culture's beliefs about murder even they are not his own.

ultimately, though, i think it might end the same way:

She hesitates, and meanwhile Kang stabs his knife into the Albino's back.

On the surface, he thanks Dax for the act of friendship in "letting" him have the death blow, but the knowing eyes between long friends hints at the deeper reality: that Kang has saved Jadzia from being forced to make the decision to kill the Albino.

(from the memory alpha page)

[zukosdualdao]

katara saying she doesn’t know about her feelings for aang because they’re in the middle of a war makes a lot of sense to me as a reason for keeping the conflict between why they can’t yet be together in the narrative. i mean, you know, feels a little contrived but whatever, i know why the creators are doing it, they want them to get together at the end so katara can be treated as a prize for his heroism in winning the war.

like, it makes sense, she wants them to stay focused, and i think the idea of getting into a romantic relationship with aang before the war is over would be really scary because of her abandonment issues and trauma. regardless of whether she feels that way about aang or not, she does care about him, and being together in that way would just another layer to her fear, because what if they don’t win, what if aang dies? part of it is certainly her trying to preemptively protect herself from that pain. being in a relationship with him would only further complicate things at this point.

but then they go a step further and have aang ask when she will know and katara not able to give an answer, instead saying she’s confused. katara doesn’t know what she feels about aang in the penultimate episode of the series (if we’re treating the multi-ep finale as one entity, which i tend to). that’s a really weird place to leave your main couple. to have katara admit she doesn’t know what she feels or wants to happen (and like, they could have had her say that she wanted to wait to talk about it until after the war, that she might feel more ready then, but instead, she doesn’t know how she feels and seems uncomfortable talking about it at all, so it really comes across like she doesn’t want to and is leaning toward no to the idea of being in a relationship with him.) him kissing her without her consent and them never talking about it again or talking about what her own feelings are is genuinely awful, but it’s the rotten cherry on top of some already very weird writing.

i don’t tend to subscribe to the idea that zutara was meant to be canon before a last-minute change (though i do think there were conversations and discord/dissent in the ranks of the writers’ room) or that bryke ever seriously considered NOT making KA endgame. but that just makes this weirder? i don’t understand why you would write a scene like this if you aren’t trying to tank the relationship?

it’s not helped by the fact that this comes directly after tsr, in which they had a major conflict over their different values and perspectives (and aang, imo, exhibited some pretty insensitive behavior toward her), and it never really got resolved. she still seems pretty angry at him at the end of the ep, side-eyeing him when he says he’s proud of her forgiving yon rha, voice and expression hardening as she tells him that she never will. considering that it was never really resolved… it doesn’t seem unlikely to me that this could be on her mind as well, as one potential reason she’s unsure about a romantic relationship with him.

[bluewithpurplepolkadots]

I love Zuko as a character but honestly stans of his who hate Aang don’t seem to realise he would not survive their criticism if they gave him even a tenth of the level of scrutiny and bad faith takes they seem to hurl at Aang. Heck even after he joins the gaang and is basically hurtling towards the end of his redemption arc he’s hardly suddenly perfect in every possible way: and it’s not as if he receives any sizeable ‘consequences’ for the things he says or does either. People don’t even react to it much at all.

If Aang was in Zuko’s position they’d whine that Iroh shouldn’t forgive him at all or that it was ‘too easy for him’ I’m sure. Despite it being touted as the most heart warming moment of the show. He’d be pretty much torn to shreds if he called Zuko names or derided the FNs culture like Zuko did the Air Nomads.

They’d argue Aang ends up with everything he wants (he doesn’t: he’s literally the last airbender) and that he doesn’t deserve any happiness. They’d argue that it’s impossible for anyone to love someone who acts like him or that he doesn’t deserve love. Then again, they do those last parts already.

"Aang has violent destructive tantrums"

Zuko literally had tantrums in the show and threw a guy across the room for talking to Mai :)

Keep setting him up, please